Gas/Electric Hybrids, Air Cars in the News

hackshack writes "eCycle is developing a hybrid diesel / electric motorcycle designed to get 180 miles per gallon. The small diesel engine kicks in at speeds over 12mph, and the electric motor handles acceleration. Target retail price is $5,500. They've got a beta test program going as well. Now I can laugh at all those "gas-guzzling" Insight drivers as I zoom by!" Reader clen writes in about the Toyota Prius doing well in a road rally, and fishdan sent in a note about a pure-electric concept car called the Tango. And the air-powered car is getting a little more media attention, too.

Comments

Wow these cars must be fast

[Anonymous Coward]

Becuse there so fast I got FP on the topic. wh00t -5 karam here I come!

A great all-electric already exists

[Ellen Spertus]

Drivers of the GM EV1 are trying to save the car, or at least stop GM from falsely claiming that nobody wants electric cars. See http://cleanup-gm.org.

Re:A great all-electric already exists

[Anonymous Coward]

stop GM from falsely claiming that nobody wants electric cars.

Ok yeah, right.

If people are actually willing to buy electric cars for more than it costs to manufacture them, why aren't foreign competitors to GM selling them in the US?

Re:A great all-electric already exists

[Grishnakh]

Well this is a pretty simple problem if you ask me. Instead of trying to get GM to change its evil ways, why not just buy from a manufacturer that caters to your demands? Sure, they're not electric, but the Insight, Prius, and new hybrid Civic have the best fuel economy in the whole fleet, plus an infinite range (unlike the EV1's 70-140 mile maximum range) anywhere gasoline is available. Plus, these cars are purchased, not leased, so you never have to give them back.

I hate to drag Microsoft into an article about cars, but this isn't a market where one giant company has monopoly control over the market and for most things you're stuck dealing with them. There's lots of car companies, none with >50% marketshare, and of course any car you buy or build can be used on any road, so support a manufacturer that's more closely aligned with your ideals rather than one which doesn't.

Re:A great all-electric already exists

[t0qer]

Well let me think about which one i'd rather have an accident in...

(pictures skin melting off from the lead acid)

Nah -100 degree compressed air sound alot better.

Re:A great all-electric already exists

[Anonymous Coward]

mm...freezer burn? and...can't tanks of compressed air(or anything else) explode?...shrapnel? hehe

Re:A great all-electric already exists

[silentbozo]

Generally, the batteries used in electric vehicles are absorbant-mat type valve-regulated sealed batteries. This means you can shoot holes in the batteries and very little, if any electrolyte will spill out. Think of them as bigger, more advanced gel-cell lead acid batteries.

Also, given the fact that your vehicle will probably be heavier (since you're carrying the lead acid batteries, and the steel to support them) the other vehicle (unless it's a huge-ass truck) will probably come out of the accident in much worse shape than you will.

I haven't a clue as to what they put into the EV-1, but I doubt that it would fare worse than a Toyota Corolla in an accident.

As far as GM crushing their EV-1s to permanently get them out of consumer reach, well, they're assholes who have already written off the money they spent building what amounts to a working fleet of prototypes, so from their point of view, "disposing" of the asset makes sense, tax-wise, since they feel that they're no longer going to be in the electric-car business (despite the fact that fuel-cell cars ARE electric cars!!!)

The biggest joke is on states who built electric car charging stations with proprietary Magnacharger paddles to support EV-1s. With the EV-1s off the road, there really isn't any use for those charging stations anymore - I haven't heard of any hobbyists using the very expensive magnacharger system as part of their EV conversions, so there you go, more taxpayer money wasted on the behalf of these corporate bozos.

Re:A great all-electric already exists

[silentbozo]

I think you'd have an easier time resurrecting Enron than making GM follow any publicly rational policy concerning the EV-1s. The EV-1s were showpieces - designed to get California off their back while their lobbyists and lawyers worked to defeat zero-emissions legislation. Now that California has backed off, the EV-1s have outlived their usefulness, and can now be replaced by clearly inferior electric golf-carts (helping to reaffirm the image of electric cars as underpowered and fit only for old people and the golf course.)

There isn't any public outrage, because there was never any public awareness of the EV-1s. A concerted effort NOT to advertise on GM's part saw to that. And, after the news stations swallowed the line about the EV-1s not selling well (well DUH, they were only leased - they were NEVER sold), the EV-1 literally dropped off the face of the earth. To be honest, I was surprised that there were still any around - I would have thought that GM would have junked them as soon as they repossessed them from all of the previous EV-1 leasees.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't try to raise awareness about what GM has done. But actually influence their policy? Not unless you own 50% +1 shares of GM stock...

Re:A great all-electric already exists

[silentbozo]

If people are actually willing to buy electric cars for more than it costs to manufacture them, why aren't foreign competitors to GM selling them in the US?

Probably because the buying (not leasing) market is too small to justify a full-time production line. Currently, your only way to buy is to shell out about 30-60k for a conversion done on a low-end floater (a floater is a conventional car, minus the gas engine.)

I don't think that anyone is mass-producing any electrics, since that brief period when the GM EV-1s, Honda EV+s, and Electric Ford Rangers were around. All of these cars were leased, and as far as I know, all three programs were discontinued by their respective manufacturers. Prior to discontinuation, I know that both the EV-1s and the Rangers were due for battery upgrades - the EV-1s to NiCads, and the Ranger to improved LeadAcids (or NiCads?)

Re:A great all-electric already exists

[Phil Karn]

The inductive charging situation is even worse than that. Some years ago, GM talked Toyota into adopting inductive charging. Toyota imposed a condition: a new, smaller paddle would replace the original large paddle used on the EV1 and S-10 and become the inductive charging standard.

The new small paddle fits into large (EV1 and S-10) cars with a simple adapter, but the older large-paddle chargers are useless with the Toyota RAV4EV, the most common EV with a small-paddle receptacle.

GM was in the process of retrofitting all the public large-paddle chargers with small-paddle units when the California Air Resources Board decided to make conductive charging the California EV standard (the right decision, IHMO). In a snit, GM abruptly took all its marbles and went home. They stopped leasing EV1s and stopped replacing large paddle chargers with small paddle chargers.

So when the last EV1 leases are up, we'll be left with a whole bunch of large-paddle public chargers that the Toyota RAV4EV, the only inductively-charged EV still on the market, will be unable to use.

The poor RAV4EV drivers get the worst of both worlds: an expensive, inefficient and unreliable inductive charging system without even the benefit of the many public charging stations that we EV1 drivers have.

Inductive EV charging was a worthwhile experiment, but it was a failure. The sooner we junk it and move to conductive, the better.

Re:A great all-electric already exists

[oilisgood]

Why does everybody get all hyped over electric cars, but, mention little of CNG(Compressed Natural Gas) cars. They burn clean and use an abundant domestic resource.

Electric cars seem clean to the consumer, but, they plug into the big dirty power grid at least once a day, which is powered mostly by coal.

I think I would choose natural gas over coal anyday.

Re:A great all-electric already exists

[naasking]

Why don't you try picturing skin burning off in a gas fire or explosion? Batteries are far less dangerous than gasoline.

Re:A great all-electric already exists

[mpe]

The biggest joke is on states who built electric car charging stations with proprietary Magnacharger paddles to support EV-1s. With the EV-1s off the road, there really isn't any use for those charging stations anymore

This is where hybid vehicles have the advantage. In that they can use existing infrastructure, rather than requiring something to be built from scratch.

Re:A great all-electric already exists

[Phil Karn]

The infrastructure for electric vehicles is actually even more pervasive than for gasoline. How many US homes lack electric service?

As an EV1 driver for over four years, it is difficult to overstate the convenience of never having to go to a gas station to refuel. I charge my car in the two places it already spends most of its time parked: at home, and at work. That covers all of my routine charging needs. When I use public charging, it's usually to get the good parking spot, or just to see if the charger still works (I maintain a web directory of local public charging sites.)

It is true that most commercially produced EVs, both inductive and conductive, require special external boxes and cables that are usually mounted in fixed locations. However, the conductive box is really just an adapter, and you can carry one to make use of a random 240V outlet in an emergency. A dryer or range outlet will work, as will the 240V outlets in most RV parks. Although this is technically against code, being able to use these outlets fairly easily is one of the major advantages of conductive charging. It's also possible to carry an inductive charger (I've done it) but they're much larger, heavier and more expensive.

Many EVs also allow charging from conventional 120V outlets, although more slowly than at 240V. So in this sense, EV charging stations are already everywhere.

Re:A great all-electric already exists

[SoftwareJanitor]

Perhaps it isn't "nobody wants electric cars", but not enough people want them to make them economically feasable to produce, or at least not enough people are willing to pay what they really cost, and GM isn't willing to sell them at a loss (who can blame them). I personally don't want an electric car because I am unconvinced that they are really better for the environment. Unless your power comes from a truly clean source (and that means wind or solar, even hydro has environmental downsides because damming up rivers does affect the environment), then they aren't zero emissions, let alone zero environmental impact. Even ignoring tailpipe emissions, manufacturing and disposing of all those batteries isn't without environmental impact, since they generally contain hazardous chemicals and/or heavy metals.

Frankly though, I don't want an electric car because even with subsidies they don't make economic sense for me. For that matter even hybrids don't make economic sense, since according to my estimates you've got to drive something like a Prius about 180,000 miles before the gas savings make up the difference in price between it and the Echo. That completely ignores maintenance costs, and my guess is that the Echo will be far cheaper to maintain, making it unlikely that a Prius will ever be as cheap to operate as an Echo. And by the way, the Echo is a nicer car to drive. And for what its worth, little cars like the current hybrids don't really suit my needs very well, let alone completely, so they'd be at best a 2nd or third car in my household, and further limiting any supposed economic or environmental advantage. And electric cars are even less pracical for my needs than hybrids.

So quit trying to make GM out to be the bad guy. They built EV1's and lost money on every one of them. The eco nuts didn't put their money where their mouth was and buy enough of them to make it profitable.

Re:A great all-electric already exists

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably because the buying (not leasing) market is too small to justify a full-time production line.

Yes, I absolutely agree with you. I was replying to a poster who seems to think that manufacturers are suppressing all-electric vehicles against the will of consumers.

In reality, although the general public wants electric cars to exist, they don't actually want to drive them.

Re:A great all-electric already exists

[horza]

So quit trying to make GM out to be the bad guy.

After that little "think with your pocket, the health of others be damned" rant, you make yourself out to be an ideal alternative target...

Phillip.

Re:A great all-electric already exists

[SoftwareJanitor]

Think what you want, but don't think I'm the only
person who thinks with their pocketbook. Most of
us have limited budgets that we have to live
within, so it is unavoidable to a certain extent.
As long as electric cars and hybrids aren't cost
effective, and don't adequately fill consumer's
needs in terms of space and cargo capacity, they
will never get past small niche market status.
Unless eco nuts are going to try to legislate the
conventional car out of the market (it has been
tried), the only way for hybrids/electrics to beat
conventional vehicles is to become a credible
competitor, because there just doesn't appear to
be enough people who are so idealistic that they
are willing to pay a lot more money for an
electric or hybrid vehicle just because of
concern for the environment. And the tone and
nature of the arguments made by the fringe of
environmental activists is not going to convince
many people to change their minds either.

fuel efficient sportbike = contradiction in terms

[Anonymous Coward]

I like how they talk about making a powertrain that's efficient at cruising speeds, when they've stuck the thing in a pure sportbike frame. They should have built a big honking Goldwing clone, or at least something like the BMW sport-touring bikes. Pocket rockets are not the place to worry about miles-per-gallon.

Can you imagine...

[Anonymous Coward]

... a Beowulf cluster of these?

Thank you.

Re:Can you imagine...

[josh crawley]

YAY!! Beowulf of crotch monkies.

See below comment...

strictly being

[glubbs]

Not good enough for me. I (pretend to think I (and I can admit that (as I just did))) know what they're sitting on, and it's not a hybrid. I don't see any reason, with the amount of money and brain power put into cars, that we have to worry about "miles per gallon" any more.

Somebody is holding out on us, and I don't like it (nor do I accept it - no car bought here yet).

Re:strictly being

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see any reason, with the amount of money and brain power put into cars, that we have to worry about "miles per gallon" any more.

We spend a hell of a lot more money on medicine, but we still have to worry about death and disease.

No doubt conspiracy nuts would claim this is because pharmaceutical companies wouldn't make so much money if no one ever got sick.

Re:strictly being

[smallfeet]

>> I (pretend to think I (and I can admit that (as I just did))) Are you a Lisp programmer or do you just lisp when you type?

Re:strictly being

[glubbs]

>> I (pretend to think I (and I can admit that (as I just did))) Are you a Lisp programmer or do you just lisp when you type?

Heh, I've never programmed in Lisp. It's just that I've read a lot of posts (and conversations within these posts), and I've noticed that most of the slashdot community is picky about how something is said/which words are used. I don't post that often, but when I do I'm very careful about how I say what I do (not to mention my amusement of parenthesis). I used them so much in that first post because I wanted to make it very clear that, in reality, I don't know what we're sitting on.

It figures, the longest post I've made is about parenthesis...

why don't they... (fictional)

[Anonymous Coward]

why don't they use the self balancing technology of the Segway Transporter (see here) and with the (power?) they can generate with these (or hydrogen fusion?) and attach a jet/rocket pack to the bottom and use them as a fliey roundie thingy?

just a thought :)

good idea

[Anonymous Coward]

air powered car sounds pretty sweet. I wish US consumers would latch on to it...maybe taxi services and urban services like mail trucks and meter maids?

wait...it doesn't hurt the enviroment...US consumers won't like it then.

Re:good idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Ya better not move, you might step on some microbes.

Think I'll waste some paper by printing this post out over and over. Then I'll load my car up with the premium stuff and drive as fast as I can while throwing said paper out the windows. If you'd like I could come by your place and let my car idle for a long long time in front of your house.

Air powered car....

[unicron]

This is what they mean by "air powered car"...

Re:Air powered car....

[NaturePhotog]

No, that's a much more advanced car, something right out of science fiction books. It's a gravity powered car :-)

Re:*BSD is dying

[Anonymous Coward]

Cooper made the exit of that stream fifty feet wide, in the first place, for no particular reason; in the second place, he narrowed it to less than twenty to accommodate some Indians. He bends a "sapling" to form an arch over this narrow passage, and conceals six Indians in its foliage. They are "laying" for a settler's scow or ark which is coming up the stream on its way to the lake; it is being hauled against the stiff current by rope whose stationary end is anchored in the lake; its rate of progress cannot be more than a mile an hour. Cooper describes the ark, but pretty obscurely. In the matter of dimensions "it was little more than a modern canal boat." Let us guess, then, that it was about one hundred and forty feet long. It was of "greater breadth than common." Let us guess then that it was about sixteen feet wide. This leviathon had been prowling down bends which were but a third as long as itself, and scraping between banks where it only had two feet of space to spare on each side. We cannot too much admire this miracle. A low- roofed dwelling occupies "two-thirds of the ark's length" -- a dwelling ninety feet long and sixteen feet wide, let us say -- a kind of vestibule train. The dwelling has two rooms -- each forty- five feet long and sixteen feet wide, let us guess. One of them is the bedroom of the Hutter girls, Judith and Hetty; the other is the parlor in the daytime, at night it is papa's bedchamber. The ark is arriving at the stream's exit now, whose width has been reduced to less than twenty feet to accommodate the Indians -- say to eighteen. There is a foot to spare on each side of the boat. Did the Indians notice that there was going to be a tight squeeze there? Did they notice that they could make money by climbing down out of that arched sapling and just stepping aboard when the ark scraped by? No, other Indians would have noticed these things, but Cooper's Indian's never notice anything. Cooper thinks they are marvelous creatures for noticing, but he was almost always in error about his Indians. There was seldom a sane one among them.

Mark Twain

Hybrid Modifications

[Anonymous Coward]

Has anyone else thought about modifying a Prius/Insight/Civic Hybrid to get better performance and (more importantly) gas mileage out of it? I'm thinking of buying a Civic Hybrid (as opposed to a Prius, since I need a new car) in hopes of being able to use the already available civic mods.

Huge exhaust....sure
17" wheels......maybe
3 foot spoiler..definitely not.

Re:Hybrid Modifications

[josh crawley]

ANd dont forget the 6 engines and the Crankcase5 to have them all work together. You'll need a ignitorSwitch capible of using a crankcase5 along with resolving all the dependancies of the Oil/gas/water/sugar mixture. ANd dont forget the bad_driver_os... wait. that's you

Re:Hybrid Modifications

[Grishnakh]

All those mods will kill your fuel economy. The Civic hybrid has a small engine, and a huge exhaust will reduce its economy at low engine speed in favor of high-rpm performance. 17" wheels weigh a ton, and will hurt both economy and acceleration (unless you get some very very expensive ultra-lightweight racing wheels). Even then, if you get wide sticky tires, your fuel economy will go down because of increased rolling resistance.

Re:Hybrid Modifications

[subsys]

No offense but if your gonna mod a civic you might as well buy a type r and go for all out mentalness stop worrieing about your fuel eco and just go for it oh and 18's are the way to go not of this 17's milarky :)

Re:Hybrid Modifications

[Anonymous Coward]

Huge exhaust...sure
my old bmw 1.8liter pos ('92 318i convertible) used to fly by these civics all the time and sometimes they'd get big ideas of beating another 4cyl but by then they were so far in the rear view that it didn't matter. or we'd encounter a corner and i'd show them that handling meant any corner you want at any speed you want without body roll on a stock car, except their tires would be screeching by that point so they were too busy dealing with their car. plus they're so poorly geared... you'd think if they wanted to go fast they'd be doing so to begin with! I know they can because my ex roomate had one and i remember driving it and it moved right along once it got up to 75 or so but it was still an econobox and not a german car.

still cracks me up, and sometimes i think i should remove the exhaust from the geo metro that i now drive just to fuck with the highschoolers :) and maybe add a vtec sticker - yea, it'll go faster then!

nb: economy car is not a shameful thing. i take the bus quite happily to work and really do drive a geo metro. i just think it's funny to modify an economy car. they handle like shit and you can't do anything about it. going faster just makes it worse!

Re:Hybrid Modifications

[Anonymous Coward]

God forbid you ever hit a small pothole. Bang there goes your tyre, and worse that shiny alloy wheel gets warped.

I think bigger wheels look better then smaller ones, but there's a point where its just plain ridiculous.

Re:Hybrid Modifications

[Archeopteryx]

I have a Prius, and IMNSHO it is a more sophisticated system than that in the Honda models. I recommend it.

However, the real goal of all of these vehicles is not fuel-efficiency! It is having a low impact upon the atmosphere. It is far more important to be able to continue to breathe clean air than to be able to continue to afford petrol!

With either of these systems, the key to good mileage is to learn to drive the car, and to find the right balance of acceleration, following distance, and braking that keeps you from operating in high fuel consumption modes.

Re:Hybrid Modifications

[Knobby]

However, the real goal of all of these vehicles is not fuel-efficiency! It is having a low impact upon the atmosphere. It is far more important to be able to continue to breathe clean air than to be able to continue to afford petrol!

What?

So, it's not efficiency, but low-impact? Okay. How do you define low-impact? How do you reduce impact? My guess is that your answer will have some efficiency component to it. If I design a vehicle that runs on water, but requires 1000 gallons per mile, you'll probably agree that the lack of efficiency of my device is resulting in a large environmental impact.. Mileage counts!

Re:Hybrid Modifications

[Archeopteryx]

I look at emissions. CO, NO, NO2, Hydrocarbons, and CO2. Only the CO2 is directly related to the amount of gasoline consumed in a manner that cannot be reduced by good design. The Prius is a SULEV, or Super-Ultra-Low Emissions Vehicle as defined by law. It actually has a lower emssions rating than the automatic transmission Insite, even though that vehicle gets better mileage. You have to go to the manual transmission Insite before it qualifies as a SULEV. So, yes, impact DOES have an efficiency component, but that is only one part of the equation, and not necessarily the most important one.

Efficiency?

[tuxlove]

How much energy does it take to charge up? This car will only be worthwhile if it takes less energy to charge it than would be consumed by a conventional auto in the form of gasoline over the same distance and hauling the same load.

I'm also a bit perplexed by the air exhaust filter. Why filter the outgoing air at all? If it's just expelling air that was pumped into it from the atmosphere, why would there be any reason to filter it? Surely the filtration decreases the efficiency of the car, since it would take energy to force the expelled air through the filter.

Re:Efficiency?

[drinkypoo]

How much energy does it take to charge up? This car will only be worthwhile if it takes less energy to charge it than would be consumed by a conventional auto in the form of gasoline over the same distance and hauling the same load.

Well I haven't ridden one of these or anything, but the basic premise is this; You have a very small engine which is mostly efficient in one very short range of operation, and an electric motor which is good at accelerating. As they say in the article, electric motors tend to have maximum torque at 0 RPM. So you can use the little motor to cruise (and charge the battery off the drive motor.) The motors are usually very efficient.

Also there is the issue of regenerative braking. If their charge control system is good (and there are many engineers out there who are capable of building a good control system) then you get very good anti-skid braking by changing the load on the generator (the motor.) The batteries are the load, and when you brake, you store a fair amount of that energy.

I'm also a bit perplexed by the air exhaust filter. Why filter the outgoing air at all? If it's just expelling air that was pumped into it from the atmosphere, why would there be any reason to filter it? Surely the filtration decreases the efficiency of the car, since it would take energy to force the expelled air through the filter.

I can't answer this one for sure either, but I can tell you something about diesel exhaust, which is that it contains carcinogenic particulate matter (soot). Rudolf intended us to be running something a little more environmentally friendly in his engine. So it would be beneficial to filter it out. And second, backpressure tends to tune your engine towards torquey-ness (as in, power comes on at lower RPMs) rather than for maximum horsepower (more power but only at higher RPMs.) So if your exhaust were unrestrictive enough, which should be easy considering the small displacement of the diesel engine, a filter might not be unreasonable.

Instead, I think I'd design my exhaust for quiet and run biodiesel. Environmentally friendly, smells better, won't give the person behind you cancer. The bike goes as fast as you ever need go, and it should be light and relatively trouble free. You'll have to replace the batteries every few years, which is no big deal. They're not THAT expensive and remember, the idea is that you're going to be getting 180 miles per gallon. Diesel fuel is currently cheaper than gasoline, at least in my area.

I am somewhat concerned about the 80 mph top speed, however. I think that you really need the capability to hit 100 in case some asshole in a sports car tries to kill you or something. But maybe a hot exhaust and an ultraprecise balance job on that tiny little motor will let you get a little more speed.

Also: It only weighs 230 pounds! I want one set up as a funduro.

Re:Efficiency?

[tuxlove]

Sorry, should have been more clear. I was referring to the air powered car.

Re:Efficiency?

[Anonymous Coward]

Read the second page.

They elude to using the filters in the cars to filter the air in the city. ie: The compress dirty air, when it is released by the car it is filtered, thereby improving air quality over time. (On a side note, making drivers pay for cleaning the air (buying new filters) should put more pressue on the government to crack down on high pollution industries emmisions).

On a more practical note, the filter is used to increase the life of the engine by preventing high speed particles sand blasting the inside of the engine. I can't think of a reason for a chemical filter, and don't know if there is one, but they may also try to filter corrosive chemicals (acids, etc) suspended in the air.

Re:Efficiency?

[AvitarX]

It can use more energy in the short run (system=the car) and still be more efficient in the big picture. If all that energy you put into it was pruduced from solor/wind/hydro power, or even mass produced combustion, then you are having far less impact.
I also question filtering the outgoing air, why not the incoming? unless there is a point with negative pressure in the exaust, and sucking stuff in the outpipe is bad.

Re:Efficiency?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am somewhat concerned about the 80 mph top speed, however. I think that you really need the capability to hit 100 in case some asshole in a sports car tries to kill you or something. But maybe a hot exhaust and an ultraprecise balance job on that tiny little motor will let you get a little more speed.

Well, if you were in a tinkering mood, you could probably wire up an emergency "turbo boost" that would shunt power directly (or, perhaps, more directly) to the motor. There are almost certainly current limitors (resistors?) that keep the motor from being damaged. In an emergency, you could bypass those and get quite zoomy for a time (then replace your motor and perhaps batteries). Note that the current motor is rated for 5kW continuous, with a peak of 15. THat's quite a lot of range.

Also note that compared to a car, manoverability, braking, and low-end acceleration 0wN on a motorcycle. You're unlikely to outrun a car, but you could presumably move aroud behind them quite easily.

Re:Efficiency?

[Anonymous Coward]

>>I am somewhat concerned about the 80 mph top speed, however.

I agree. I can think of many parts of the country where 80 is the average speed on the highway (or parts of downtown Boston).

Re:Efficiency?

[quax]

Independent studies revealed that Bio Diesel is not more environmental. Sorry, only have two German links to back this up:

(1)
(2)

The exhaust of Bio Diesel is actually a little bit better than that of regular Diesel. But the energy (and the subsequent pollution) that you have to invest to produce Bio Diesel outweighs the benefits. Since my government (Germany) signed the Kyoto agreement I think we'd see a strong backing in my country for Bio Diesel if it actually was a viable means to lower our CO2 emissions.

Re:Efficiency?

[tuxlove]

Okay, that makes sense. They don't want particles in the compressed air to sandblast the engine. But then, why not filter the air on the way IN, when you're compressing the air, rather than on the way OUT when you want utmost efficiency?

Re:Efficiency?

[lommer]

I am really not sure why they would have an air filter. The only possibility that came to my mind was that it was solely a marketing gimmick (i.e. "This car not only produces zero emissions, it even cleans the atmosphere as it runs!")

Maybe they figure that gimmick will bring in more $$ than the inefficiency of the vehicle?

Re:Efficiency?

[drinkypoo]

Also note that compared to a car, manoverability, braking, and low-end acceleration 0wN on a motorcycle. You're unlikely to outrun a car, but you could presumably move aroud behind them quite easily.

Low-end acceleration, yes; Though this thing takes six seconds to get up to sixty, hardly a speed demon as bikes go. But a sports car will outhandle a motorcycle in many situations. I myself have put various sportbikes and a couple of superbikes to shame on some of the twistier backroads of California.

Re:Efficiency?

[Anonymous Coward]

Same AC.

Probably worried about ice particles, etc from the cold gas being used. (Cold in storage, even colder when it is released (expansion)).

Putting the filter in the car kills two birds with one stone. I would be surprised if the filler pumps didn't have filters as well though.

Why a car ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Save the planet !
Use the internet for everything !

Forklift kill!

[Anonymous Coward]

Recently I've been obsessed with the idea of killing someone with a forklift. I would like to drive around with a turbo-charged nitro-forklift and impale some hapless worker at Sam's club.

Then, I would raise the still living, impaled body up with the forklift and leave them on a high shelf, where they wouldn't be found until their corpse began to reek.

Then, the announcer from Unreal Tournament yells "FORKLIFT KILL!"

does that sound cool or what?

Re:Forklift kill!

[josh crawley]

Forklift kill??? Mother forker!

Re:Forklift kill!

[bogie]

hahahaha.

Re:Forklift kill!

[Anonymous Coward]

YourMissionForToday: bleeng bleeng
coed.jpg: ohohohoh my hehahahahad
YourMissionForToday: Trophy's Mine!
coed.jpg: I'm glad the fall is coming. it's statistically the second-best time of the year for my prospects of getting laid
coed.jpg: #1 being may-april
YourMissionForToday: I should play some Castlevania, no?

YourMissionForToday: Getting laid is t3h r0x0r
coed.jpg: yes. the dss forum site i most recently signed up on had a bunch of castlevania and chrono cross characters for icons
YourMissionForToday: wish the gameboy advance screen didn't suck so much...I can feel my eyes struggling after playing for about 20 minutes
coed.jpg: frank said he's bringing his to the apple store tomorrow
coed.jpg: the more i think about it the more it occurs to me that this whole adventure is really just gonna be a big joke... and i laugh
YourMissionForToday: Frank is steeped in materialistic excess! He must be re-educated!
coed.jpg: my friend anj said that the apple store in plano had a big line out the door on opening day. if that's the case, meet me in the food court
coed.jpg: i'll be scarfing SBARRO
YourMissionForToday: Meet me at the forklift dealership, I drive a forklift through your wall!
coed.jpg: did i tell you home depot won't hire me cuz i have no forklift experience
coed.jpg: "Have you ever driven a forklift"
"Well, no" (not since i was 6 yrs old in dad's warehouse, i shoulda said that)
coed.jpg: "Well we really need someone good with a forklift but we'll let you know if we need you for something"
YourMissionForToday: Show them your forklift experience by impaling them, then lifting up their body and leaving it on a high shelf
coed.jpg: hahaha
coed.jpg: "Well I drove one in my most recent string of brutal unsolved murders, perhaps you heard about them. The people were impaled with a forklift and then slammed repeatedly against the top and bottm of the highest shelf, and then left there"
coed.jpg: "They were insolent"
YourMissionForToday: I want to make a video game where all you do is bust through a wall and steal stuff with a forklift, then drive out
coed.jpg: that's a fantastic idea for a game
coed.jpg: the vague aesthetic of that zoo game witht he lasso and the truck
YourMissionForToday: Yeah, and then it turns into Unreal Tournament in my mind when you impale somebody and the announcer says "FORKLIFT KILL!"
coed.jpg: "There's a pallet of flat panel LCD's on that loading dock! Steal the forklift and put it in your buddy's pickup! GO!"
coed.jpg: hahaha an FPS with a forklift as a weapon would rox0r
coed.jpg: you'd move kinda slow, but you'dbe fuckin invincible. like having the school bus in vigilante 8
YourMissionForToday: you have to corner real fast and you get turbocharged nitrocack for your forlkift
coed.jpg: but your weakness would be the propane tank... someone hits that enough times and you're toast!
YourMissionForToday: if you crash into the wall at sams club, 10 tons of cat food tins land on your head
coed.jpg: Or... CRAZY FORKLIFT! You're a newly-hired night-shift loader at Sam's, and your boss is an asshole. He says "Get this pallet of new Color-Safe CHeer(tm) to aisle 7, put it on the third shelf!" ANd you have to do it as fast as possible, your forklift can go up to 120 mph, and you leave a wake of terror as you rip through the warehouse
YourMissionForToday: Yeah
coed.jpg: your forklift is all bad-ass, with not just the prongs but also the big side-clamps that hold the pallet on the lift, cuz you drive like a maniac and blare rock music on your forklift's boomin system
YourMissionForToday: Pimpin forklift with loads of chrome
coed.jpg: yeah!
YourMissionForToday: You can crush someone's head with the side clamps! They're like a vice!
coed.jpg: you can smash through walls, knock over shelves, none of it matters! as long as you get the pallet to the shelf!

or wait, you know what fuck the shelf... into the truck that's backed up to the loading dock that your buddy's waiting to drive off in
coed.jpg: Ditch the soap or whatever and head over to electronicas
YourMissionForToday: But watch out for land mines in the Cambodian Jungle forklift level!
coed.jpg: hahaha
coed.jpg: yeah you have big mud tires on your forklift, and roof lights
YourMissionForToday: There could be one level where you have to steal enough parts from an assembly line to make a killer forklift, and oyu have to drive across a bunch of conveyer belts
coed.jpg: haha! Forkker?
YourMissionForToday: Yeah, and when you drop all the proper parts in the foundry, it cuts to this FMV where your AWeSOMe NEW FORKLIFT EMERGES off the assembly line
YourMissionForToday: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=40343&cid=4302 199
coed.jpg: haha
coed.jpg: it's so appropriate!
YourMissionForToday: I can't wait for some stoned guy to see that
coed.jpg: hahaha
YourMissionForToday: Maybe you have to kill zombies with your forklift, or you're a superhero and you can fly off your forklift to like ten rows down at sam's and land on some guy who'ss trying to run away
coed.jpg: hahaha, or you have a reach-lift, with a big extendible arm you can lash out with and smash people and things
YourMissionForToday: Yeah, or like you can impale a big can of oil with your forklift, and then ram it in reverse so that oil spills all over the place and the cops can't pursue you
coed.jpg: oh that's great
coed.jpg: and if you grab something and send it up real fast as you drive real fast (without impaling it), it flies over your head and lands behind you
YourMissionForToday: cool, you could use crates of explosives...or depth charges!
coed.jpg: yeah! have summadis!
coed.jpg: but impaling people, stacking 3 or 4 on each prong, that would be the real point of the game
YourMissionForToday: and you could ride your forklift over to these hydraulic lifts, and the higher you dump people on the shelf, the more points!

Re:Forklift kill!

[Anonymous Coward]

I do believe you're wasted, old foot!

Re:Forklift kill!

[bogie]

Typical douchebag mods. It wasn't enough to be modded down once some ass had to come and mod it down again.

Feel like a big man now? Here is a good reason to mod me down now mods....Go shit yourselves :-)

that's great for Science Fiction

[martin-boundary]

Air powered cars are the future. Now we'll finally get to see completely new Star Trek plots.

Archer: must...stop...driving...need air
Trip: here capt'n, try this tachyon modified gasoline. One deep gulp and you won't need all that extra air. Mmm, pecan pie.

Re:that's great for Science Fiction

[josh crawley]

Yeah, and I'm waiting for the anally-powered car. Yuou hook up all users to the engine and feed beans till arrived at destination.

Then again, you COULD SHUT THE FUCK UP, DUMBASS.

Re:that's great for Science Fiction

[Anonymous Coward]

Go take some fucking prozac you moron and chill the fuck out.

Air powered car safety

[XNormal]

It may be cleaner than gasoline powered cars - but is it safe?

Four tanks of compressed air at 4500psi contain a lot of potential energy. If they rupture in a car crash this energy will be released in an instant, spraying their surroundings with shrapnel. Sure, a tank full of gasoline isn't exactly benign, either, but outside of Hollywood cars generally do not explode in a fireball.

Re:Air powered car safety

[josh crawley]

Hey, it's a good anti-personnel device. Now those evil terrorists wont have to car-bomb cars... They just snipe off the tanks.

Re:ahh, the classic fp

[Anonymous Coward]

Go home and be a family man!

Please see my comment later on in the thread about FORKLIFT KILL.

Cheers, YourMissionForToday

gas??

[gl4ss]

please.. why couldn't the headline read "diesel /electric" hybrids, i was all worked up to see toyota prius converted for gas.

and in other news. this isn't really news.

Re:ahh, the classic fp

[josh crawley]

No. Read mine, you b14+ch3z. ;-)

not selling these to harley owners

[atarione]

Since electric /hybrid vehicles tend to be fairly quiet. I believe it is safe to say not many harly owners with find these hybrid bikes attractive, as it would be impossible for them to rev the motor in such a way sd to wake the dead whenever they arrived or left somewhere.

Re:not selling these to harley owners

[rapidweather]

Not unless they are interested in adding another conversation piece to their collection. Some harley owners have more than one bike or car.

Re:not selling these to harley owners

[Fig, formerly A.C.]

Some harley owners have more than one bike or car.

With the astounding dependability of Harleys, they NEED to. :-)

I think the real bike collectors are more centered on the true oddities: old Nortons, Triumphs, original Harley singles, Moto-Guzzis, classic BMW, etc... They guys that collect Harleys tend to fixate on Harleys, and they are Harley guys all the way.

Not 100%, but I'd say it is the trend.

An electric already on the roads

[Lurkingrue]

Keep in mind that Corbin Motors already has put solid, useful electrics on the roads. Can't say their vehicles would be very practical for everyone, but I've seen a few Corbin Sparrows in Boston and NYC, and it looks like they're the perfect urban-mobile.

Re:An electric already on the roads

[zaren]

Up until today, I wanted a Corbin Sparrow. Now, I've kinda got my heart set on one of those air-powered cars, being the target market and all :) Ann Arbor would be a great place for a car like that.

I strongly recommend the Civic Hybrid

[Beebos]

I've had a Honda Civic Hybrid for about two months, 4,000 miles. I couldn't be more impressed.

It has enough pickup for the driving most people do. Its more comfortable than my Subaru Forrester, including more leg room. It handles well. Best of all, I average 50.8 miles to the gallon. Yes, there is a MPG gauge. It has a range of over 600 miles per tank of gas and is a Ultra Low Emmissions vehicle.

It charges its own batteries through regenerative breaking and cruising without depressing the gas pedel, e.g. going down hill. The electric engine kicks in for some extra horsepower when you drive uphill or are accelerating. The gas engine is only about 96 horsepower, but that is enought when you are driving a light car on level roads . I drive it through the Green Mountains and it performs very well. It can cruise at 70 mph or more on a highway very easily, though I find I downshift a little more in the Civic than my Forrester for some extra oumph.

I've added a Sirius Satellite radio, so now I can drive coast to coast on five tanks of gas while listening to the same radio station!!!!

Put your environmental money where your environmental mouth is and buy one! I believe congress has just pased a tax credit for people who buy a hybrid.

Go forth and be GREEN!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re:I strongly recommend the Civic Hybrid

[evilviper]

I'm not too impressed...

You have a dinky little lightweight car, complex as hell, practically unservicable, and you get 50 MPG. Meanwhile, my pickup is getting 35MPG, and without a doubt has a lot more power and towing capability than your car. Not to mention, unlike cars today, my truck is made of actual METAL (not plastic), is much larger than your car, and can tow 3/4 ton.

Call me crazy, but it doesn't sound like your MPG is very impressive. Considering the difference in weight, power, and technology, I would certainly expect far better gas mileage from your car.

Am I the only one who thinks vehicle manufacturers are intentionally holding back, to delay or even attempt to stop EPA vehicle guidlines?

Re:I strongly recommend the Civic Hybrid

[56ker]

Did you read the bit that said it's a hybrid? At the moment 50mpg is the best you're going to get when the manufacturers are just making better and better petrol engines/ cars (or hybrids) and the alternatives are either not cost efficient or practical.

Re:I strongly recommend the Civic Hybrid

[Spunk]

I've added a Sirius Satellite radio, so now I can drive coast to coast on five tanks of gas while listening to the same radio station

Thanks to the fine folks at ClearChannel, you can already do this!

*grumble*

Re:I strongly recommend the Civic Hybrid

[Mika_Lindman]

"You have a dinky little lightweight car, complex as hell, practically unservicable, and you get 50 MPG. Meanwhile, my pickup is getting 35MPG, and without a doubt has a lot more power and towing capability than your car. Not to mention, unlike cars today, my truck is made of actual METAL (not plastic), is much larger than your car, and can tow 3/4 ton."

I'm sure your pickup comes very handy, when your family relocates from one white trash trailer park to another. Also when buying groceries for your 20 brothers and sisters you definetly need towing capabilities of 3/4 ton. And it's goot to get that good MPG, since you propably have to travel to another city quite often to watch wrestling and monster trucks.

Even if your weak ego needs bigger and stronger car than others, that's no excuse to pollute more.
Pickup is not a smart choice for car, if you don't need one, and most people don't need one.

Re:I strongly recommend the Civic Hybrid

[evilviper]

I'll ignore your insults, which reduces your comment to the following:

Pickup is not a smart choice for car, if you don't need one, and most people don't need one.
Well, I can tell you have never worked on a car in your lifetime.

First of all, a pickup is never going to be front-wheel drive.
It will never be a POS made out of plastic, et al.
It is not going to have a completely unservicable engine
In general, it is just going to be built better than a car

So, you are saying that I should drive a 100lb piece of plastic at 70MPH (putting my life on the line) down the CA freeways, which breaks down quite often (causing me a big hassle), is practically unservicable (costing me more), and will not give me the ability to tow anything, just to save a few gallons of gasoline.

I don't think I even need to tell you where you can shove that tree-hugging hippie crap.

Re:I strongly recommend the Civic Hybrid

[Anonymous Coward]

3/4 ton capacity and 35MPG from a truck? Bullshit.

Re:I strongly recommend the Civic Hybrid

[Vox Humana]

VW has a turbo diesel that gets around that mileage (42 city/ 49 highway), in both the Golf TDI & Jetta TDI, I think. I'm surprised that the hybrid doesn't do any better than that.

Re:I strongly recommend the Civic Hybrid

[Anonymous Coward]

Diesels often get significantly better mileages then straight internal combustion gasoline engines.

The probably is that even the best modern diesels produce a significant amount of particulate polution, so a lot of us oppose them on environmental grounds.

Straight gas vs. diesel is a tradeoff... one produces less particulates, and the other produces less C02. So, personally I'd prefer a hybrid over a diesel that performed the same, since the hybrid would win in both of these pollution categories.

Re:I strongly recommend the Civic Hybrid

[Knobby]

So, you are saying that I should drive a 100lb piece of plastic at 70MPH (putting my life on the line) down the CA freeways

Actually, trucks are not held to the same safety standards as cars and are often less safe to drive. If you smash into a Honda Civic, you're correct in assuming that the Civic with bear the brunt of the damage and the Civic owner may sustain much more severe injuries than you. This might also be the case if you collide with a Lincoln Town Car despite it's large mass. In both cases the cars are designed to crush and absorb impact. Your truck is not designed in such a manner and the impact experienced by the car will approximate an impact with an unyielding object (such as concrete pillar) at an increased velocity.

So, you're probably safer if you smash into cars, but if you hit anything that is not designed to crush, you're screwed! The frame will keep your vehicle from absorbing the impact energy, and your body will be forced to compensate..

Re:I strongly recommend the Civic Hybrid

[Master Bait]

I've got an old 1600cc non-turbo VW diesel that constitently gets 52 mpg. It has more than 350,000 miles on the odometer. I'm surprised that none of the hybrids produced so far use diesels. Diesels are even more efficient if they run at a constant rpm. Railroad hybrid locomotives are an excellent example of the system: electric motors to run the vehicle, constant rpm diesels to charge the batteries (when needed). 100 mpg would be practical for a 2,000 lb. car.

The latest non-scientific mindset of the Greens seem to be prohibitive of diesels because they believe they cause CANCER, and that they believe the emissions from gasolene DON'T cause cancer (or they choose to ignore them). They are being played by the oil companies, who know that the quantity of diesel that can be distilled from crude oil is limited.

Re:I strongly recommend the Civic Hybrid

[Planesdragon]

Thanks to the fine folks at ClearChannel, you can already do this!

Hardly.

I drive on a semi-regular basis from Albany, NY to State College, PA--which is only about 300 miles one-way. For this trip, we have at least four different "radio zones." The Albany stations cut out significantly before Binghampton, there's the crap around Binghampton, then there's a good station out of Sracnton, which doesn't reach to State College.

The Albany and Sranton stations, AFAIK, are Clear Channel.

Re:I strongly recommend the Civic Hybrid

[Beebos]

Uh loser......

The only difference between the Civic Hybrid and the regular Civic is the engine. The Civic got the highest test crash ratings you can get, so its a relatively safe vehicle.

If you want to drive a monster truck puting everyone else at risk, all while killing the earth with its emmissions.......

well its a free country....... you're free to be the biggest Ass**le you can be..... and be proud of it.

By the way, the batteries and electric engine have an 8 year/80,000 mile warranty.

Re:I strongly recommend the Civic Hybrid

[WWE-TicK]

> Go forth and be GREEN!!!!!!!!!!!!

To be honest, I couldn't care less about the environment. I just hate having to refuel all the goddamn time. That 50MPG sounds perfect for me.

Re:I strongly recommend the Civic Hybrid

[evilviper]

You've got a very one-sided view of the world.

I may be wrong, but I have never seen 70MPH crash tests, so claiming that a car is safer is without merit.

You admit that someone in a car being hit by a truck will sustain more injuries. But then you say that a car and a truck, hitting something like a brick wall, would leave the driver of the car in better shape. Surely you jest.

BTW, there are plenty of real trucks (i.e. 16 wheelers) going 65 MPH on the freeways.

I suppose all I can say is that I don't buy it. Sure, cars are designed to crumple. I don't see that as terribly advantageous, it reduces forces in low-speed crashes, but just destroys the passenger cabin at high-speeds. If you can provide some high-speed crash test result (> 50MPH) or maybe some real-life highway traffic fatality statistics, I be happy to take a look.

Re:I strongly recommend the Civic Hybrid

[Beebos]

>> The latest non-scientific mindset of the Greens seem to be prohibitive of diesels because they believe they cause CANCER, and that they believe the emissions from gasolene DON'T cause cancer (or they choose to ignore them). They are being played by the oil companies, who know that the quantity of diesel that can be distilled from crude oil is limited.

This is an absurd statement. I no of no environmentalist who isn't extremely aware of the problems with gasoline emissions. It is fundamentally what we are up in arms against.

I can't wait to buy a hydrogen fuel cell car. Unfortunately, that car is still in the future.

What I can do know is buy a hybrid car that is as emissons free as is currently possible. There are only two cars in the world that produce less pollution and perform just like any other car, the Prius and the Insight. If you compare them with the Civic Hybrid, I think you'd choose the Civic because it handles the road better and is more comfortable.

By the way, I think you'd find that most scientists are environmentalists.

Re:I strongly recommend the Civic Hybrid

[Anonymous Coward]

Might I ask what make/model and year of pickup you are driving? I'd be pretty interested in buying one that gets 35mpg. fueleconomy.gov lists the best pickup truck mpg at 27 or 28 or so (02 ford ranger), and I'm pretty sure that one has plastic bumpers. Heck, most cars that arn't compacts or subcompacts can't get 35mpg.

Air cars?

[not-quite-rite]

Thank-freakin-god!!

Finally we get the technology that the new millenium deserves.
It has taken so long to get those flying cars!!!

Now for my three course meal in pill form...

no zooming will occur

[Phyrexia]

Someone ought to tell him he won't be 'zooming' past any Insight/Prius drivers anytime soon, heh.

Rush hour

[Scaebor]

now if the diesel engine only kicks in over 12 mph, what happens in heavy traffic when the average speed is, in my experience, far less than this speed? Does the diesel turn on when the batteries reach a crucial lower limit? It seems like this would reduce the gains in fuel economy as with the diesel on you would just be running at the same economy level as any other diesel car. Further, you would also presumably be charging the batteries simultaneouly, meaning that emissions and fuel consumption will be greater yet (though still significantly less than a standard car).

Just a small concern, but it seems important to me as well.

Re:Rush hour

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the great thing about motorbikes... you don't sit in traffic, you go through it. :)

Re:Rush hour

[Anonymous Coward]

You would have to be in traffic for a long time. You won't be moving very fast, or a long distance so the motor won't be working hard. I would be more worried about people blasting the AC and the stereo system.

Re:Rush hour

[Anonymous Coward]

It probably does the same thing as my Prius does. If you run the battery down by driving in slow traffic, then at some point the gas engine turns on and begins charging the battery. Remember the fuel efficiency and emissions are related to how hard the engine has to work (and how much gas it consumes). So if charging the battery when it gets low requires less work for the engine than a car idling, then you're still more efficient. Plus as soon as the battery is recharged, the engine shuts off again. Keep in mind that during all this time every other disel engine is constantly running. In the end you're still more efficient.

Interesting, but...

[920]

Ok, everyhting looks pretty good in theory, and I'm sure it does well in application. I assume that with this, as well as most other hybrids, it is probably lacking somewhat in power. I checked the transmission specs, and it appears to be a 2 speed (unless I'm reading that wrong) and also appears to be an automatic. Maybe it's just personal preference and bias, but when I'm driving something that needs to get out of it's own way, I much prefer a stick to control the acceleration a little better (and eliminate the need for the automatic transmission to hesitate while it decides I want power).

Besides that, just for "asthetics", it should be a standard trans. I mean, I haven't driven a bike yet that's been an auto, and I'm sure that if they were that good, they'd be a little more prevalant in the market.

Ok, enough of my ranting. I would definately look into buying one though, if it was a stick.

--

"Perl 6 gives you the big knob." -- Larry Wall

Re:Interesting, but...

[Angus McNitt]

Not sure about this. I have ridden an auto bike (remember that Honda 360 anyone? And people wonder why I hang out a motorcycle stores.) and my biggest complaint was lack of control. I knew what RPM I wanted to shift at, but the bike did it's thing. Add to that the added weight and loss of acceleration (Fighter Pilots and Streetbikers Motto: "Speed is life") and the auto killed it for me. Yeah it was fun and easy, but only till the second stop light.

Internal Combustion engines paired to Automatics suck. The reason I give for the suckage is the lack of control and responsiveness. In an IC powered bike, I need to have a hard link because I have power bands that I will need to smooth out, and to keep inside of. In a hard corner, I need to not only work about my speed, but how much torque my back wheel is laying down vs the "stickyness" of my tires. An Auto, being ever so efficient, would select the best gear for that speed, without any consideration to what I am doing.

An electric bike really wouldn't have that problem, it is constant power pretty much, and produses pretty much constant torque curve. I can also see the need for only a two speed, the motor revs higher, but think the still should use more gears.
But.... I do see two big problems with it.

1. Weight: It's too light. You will be buffeted by every other vehicle, not to mention what too much throttle could do. Also stealing it would be pretty darn easy. Light to pickup and put in the back of a truck.
2. Braking: Without the engine to provide drag, you will need even better brakes that a standard sport bike. The stock comes with one front disk and one rear. Granted the front is a four piston, but I would think you would want twins in the front. I do like the use of the wave rotor in the rear. Maybe they don't have more power in the front to keep it from nosing over. *shrugs*

But as the proud owner of a SV650, it will never displace current bikes. Sure internal combustion engines with lots of gears are noisy, smelly, hot, and pain to work on, but they are SOOO MUCH FUN!!

Re:Interesting, but...

[2short]

Your assumption that hybrids are necessarily lacking in power is way off. Hybrids are generally targeted toward efficiency more than performance yes. But if it's quick response to the accelerator you wan't, an electric motor is the end-all-be-all. A gas motor must rev up to the power level you ask for (assuming it's big enough to provide it). An electric motor will go from 0 to max torque as fast as you can push down the pedal. And if we step back to design time, doubling the rate at which you can dump energy through an electric means increasing the cost by a tiny fraction of what it means for gas.
Now, I have no idea which way they've gone with this one, but don't assume that because other hybrids go for efficiency that this one couldn't compete on performance if they wanted to.
IIRC, the max power output for the EV1 was picked solely as a function of tire traction.

What about safety?

[User 956]

And just how would you ensure safety of these air tanks? That's a HELL of a lot of pressure!

I used to scuba dive quite a bit, though I haven't for a few years now. For those of you who don't you may not be aware that there are quite a few laws/guidelines about air tanks and safety.

Each time you pressurize a dive tank you are doing two things: first, you're causing a huge amount of heat to build up and secondly, you're stressing the metal of the tank. The hotter the tank gets the more quickly the metal it's made of will become stressed over time and become unsafe. That's why scuba tanks are placed in water when they're being filled. A dive shop is required by law (at least around here) to render a tank unusable if they see ANY signs of damage or metal fatigue. It's just a fact of physics that a tank has only so many use cycles before the metal fatigue renders it unsafe.

The dive shop owner who trained me had an interesting story about an experience he'd had. Many years ago his shop purchased a number of surplus tanks from the military. They had certified that they were in good shape and safe to use. Being a cautious guy he decided to fill them up and use them himself before selling any to his customers. While he was filling one of them he noticed a slight odd sound. He thought it could be a leak, so he placed his hand near the gasket at the top of the tank to see if he could feel any air escaping. He didn't actually touch the tank.

The next thing he knew he was lying on his back in a different room. The tank had exploded, blowing him over 50 feet through two walls! All the interior walls in his shop were flattened, his ear drums were broken, he was bleeding from tears at the corners of his mouth and eyes, plus tons of other crap was damaged/destroyed. The tank was about 3/4 full when this happened.

This was a steel tank, which has a max pressure of 1500PSI. And these cars are at 4500PSI???

I dunno. I'd have to be VERY confident of the safety measures they use before I'd consider riding in one of these things.

Re:What about safety?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dive tanks and high pressure tanks for cars are two different things.

Dive tanks suffer the majority of their fatigue because of the temperature differences they are subjected to. Eg sea, then hot deck, etc. And if they fail they are strapped to the back of a person.

High pressure tanks can be designed to fail safely (See previous AC post I wrote above for the "tearing" simplified explanation). But no matter how it fails, you don't want a tank to fail strapped to a person, hence the high standard with dive tanks.

Car tanks would be design to fail safely in the event of over pressurisation or being hit by another car, and hence tear. But with a dive tank there is no really safe way to fail, they mostly blow the top of the cylinder (where they are filled, the name escapes me), which stops air hitting the diver directly, but they can still be propelled a long way.

Above water newer (and more expensive) dive tanks are given a kevlar webbing surround over the tank to stop the metal breaking away and becoming shrapnel. There are also composite type tanks, but the are _really_ expensive, and I don't think they are intended for divers (more for submersables)

Re:What about safety?

[onomatomania]

Presumably the tank would be reinforced with kevlar fiber to help prevent this. The article is light on details but it does state that the tank is made of steel reinforced thermoplastic. Sounds kind of fishy...

Re:What about safety?

[Anonymous Coward]

Where they 'certified' or did they just say 'Yeah, they're fine'?

HPA air tanks need to be hydrostatically tested every few years (3-7 I think) by a certified shop. He should have know better than to test them himself.

Problem...

[TheDanish]

The problem I see with air-powered cars is the same as with electric cars -- it takes too long to refill 'em. That would be why nobody would buy electric cars. If it took three minutes instead of three hours, that'd be a different story. I know they said that you can go to stations that do this, but THEY have to cooperate as well (and shell over the hundred grand). Maybe they will. Who knows? Also, there were some questions that went unanswered: does it have AC, radio, etc.? Also, 120 miles isn't a good result for a benchmark. People will want at least double that. And how fast can it go uphill on a highway? I live in a reletively hilly area (that is, I live in a valley which is pretty much entirely on a slope). Anyway, back ot, gas/electric hybrids have been out for quite awhile. This is not news. Although it is a motorcycle, so I guess that qualifies...

Re:Problem...

[TheDanish]

^erm, replace "air-powered cars" with "the air-powered car in the article," and put in a few paragraphs in there. Grr... who invented this two minute time limit?

What per what ?

[stud9920]

about 90 percent of the world has no idea how much a gallon is. Hell, a UK gallon is probably even different from an US one. And UK at least made the decision to switch to the more civilized litre (yes, it's written litre.)

About 90 percent of the world has no idea how much a mile is. Hell, a UK mile is probably even different from an US one. And UK at least made the decision to switch to the more civilized kilometre (yes, it's written kilometre.)

Even more annoying : about 90 percent of the world doesn't count in distance, but in distance for volume.

Therefore 90 percent of the world doesn't understand your bullshit US centric measurements. I don't know, but if even the most tech savvy persons I am supposed to be meeting here can't make the switch to modern (as in post XVIIIth century modern) units, I fear America (read the US) will never see the light (hey, c is measured in "km/s", not in "weeks/length of the right foot of Henry VIII" !).

Re:What per what ?

[TheDanish]

My car gets 40 rods to the hog's head, and that's the way I likes it! [/Abraham Simpson]

Re:What per what ?

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't have to be so damn condescending. Yes, we know it's not kilometER and litER, just like we know that most words don't end in -ize. It's just how we standardIZEd. Just like the measuring system used; things were already measured that way. And we measure miles per gallon, which is distance / volume.

Re:What per what ?

[Anonymous Coward]

bah.. I will never give in one inch to further french infiltration, french indoctrination and the international french metric system conspiracy.

http://www.metricsucks.com/

Re:What per what ?

[Anonymous Coward]

I refuse to believe anything that cites Mr. Rogers and the pope as "finer things in life."

Re:What per what ?

[Anonymous Coward]

"And UK at least made the decision to switch to the more civilized kilometre"

Since when? We were still using miles last time I looked - even though we're taught to use metres and centimetres for smaller distances. Hmm.

Re:What per what ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes I know the Simpsons reference, but let's see what Grandpa's car really got.

1 rod = 0.003125 miles
1 hogshead (US) = 63 gallons (US)

40 rods to the hogshead is 0.00198 mpg. Yikes!

Thank you, Online Conversion

Re:What per what ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hah, as an English physics graduate, I sort of agree with this one - one time I was at an airshow talking to a pilot about an apache helicopter or something, and the guy starts providing stats on his aircraft in 'foot pounds per square inch' or similar...

I wouldn't describe it as 'bullshit' mind you, but certainly 'kind of archaic' might do the trick.

Flatulent car

[Subcarrier]

According to Michael Baltierra, a reporter for ABC News, "we tested the car and it ran quite well. The only major problem that we noticed," he continues, "was that it was quite noisy...

I knew there was a catch! I read the article thinking to myself: "How can the car pass wind like that without making the noise?". And the carbon filter is starting to make sense, too.

Diesel smart cars.

[Colin Smith]

A Diesel smart car can do 68mpg(US) which is around 86mpg(UK) IIRC. Top speed of 86mph, group 2 insurance and a doddle to park.

Ideal for running around town.

They won't be officially released in the US till 2004, but there are importers already planning to ship them. The cars themselves have been around for a few years in Europe and they are all over the place. Daimler are planning a Diesel/electric hybrid version of the car.

Re:Diesel smart cars.

[quax]

Diesel fuel in the US does not comply to the same standards as in the EU. That is why many of the efficient Diesel engines can not be offered in the states. Too much sulfur in American Diesel. It's a pity. I currently live in Germany driving an AUDI TDI. I love that I can drive 1000 km before having to refill (granted it's also nice to have an ecological sound conscience).

Re:Diesel smart cars.

[opkool]

I agree that US Diesel fuel is very dirty, by European standards.

I live in the US. I own a VW Jeta TDi 2002. I love it. I get +46mpg in the freeway, with high A/C (I live in the hot south) *and* doing +80 most of the time.

One night, I did quite a long trip, at 85/95 mph. The mileage was still great, ~45mpg (with low A/C).

If I'd drive it around 65mph, I'm pretty sure I will be getting the theoretical 49mpg. And the Jetta StationWagon gets 50mpg.

I can't wait for biodiesel and cleaner US Diesel fuel.

ZZZ, wake me when I can actually buy one.

[Gldm]

I was all set to save up and buy an e-cycle (the original electric) YEARS ago. BTW this diesel hybrid is not news, it's been mentioned on their site for over a year now.

I wanted the electric one, even with 50mi range. They kept pushing dates back, then suddenly it's "Oh, we've decided to build this new hybrid bike instead, so it'll be a few more years."

I'm betting they'll stall for more investment money and then in another year or so go "Wait wait, we'll make a fuel cell bike instead! Just hang on another 3 years!"

Automatic bikes are dangerous

[Colin Smith]

In a car, changing gear and power delivery mid-corner isn't a problem, the car won't fall over or change line.

A bike, however needs completely predictable power delivery, if you change the power delivery on a bike mid-corner the line you're taking changes, you run wide or you fall into the corner. The rear tyre can also spin up. It's one of the reasons the new Honda VFR800 with VTEC is not doing so well (It's also as ugly as sin). The VTEC kicks in at around 7,000rpm and starts delivering more power.

Re:Automatic bikes are dangerous

[FigWig]

But aren't there turbo bikes that would experience a similar phenomenon when the boost kicks in?

Re:Automatic bikes are dangerous

[Anonymous Coward]

Been tried, and abandoned by major manufacters for precisely that reason. You can get turbo kits for many bikes, generally only used for drag racing and bragging rights.

Re:Automatic bikes are dangerous

[Anonymous Coward]

Reviews have said that there is no way to tell when the VTEC kicks in. All it does is smooth out the power delivery, not Kick in with a super boost.

If indeed the bike is not selling that well, then it is just based on price-performance. The VFR is a techno showoff of a bike that only honda could build, not a dedicated supersport. Honda would build it even if NONE sold.

What about automatic scooters, eh?

Re:Automatic bikes are dangerous

[func]

Yeah, heard about a turbo'd Hayabusa that would wheelie at 120 mph - frightening! Or fun, depending on your point of view!

It isn't a sportsbike

[Moderation abuser]

A sportsbike will do 0-60 in under 3 seconds.This thing takes 6.

Re:It isn't a sportsbike

[Fig, formerly A.C.]

A sportsbike will do 0-60 in under 3 seconds.This thing takes 6.

I know, this thing is slower than a Harley. And that is SLOW. It's light, and will corner well, but people don't like anything smaller than a 600 here (unfortunately).

The fact is, if they market it as a sportbike, it will fail miserably. If they market it as an efficient commuter vehicle, it just might do ok in some areas of the country. Noone up north will buy one, up here the season is so short bikes are just toys like jet-skis. However, in the south I can see the advantages to having one of these, especially if gas goes up in price again.

Just drop it Kevin...

[Anonymous Coward]

Kevin,

I wish you would stop posting this crap and just move on with your life. I'm sorry that things worked out the way they did, but you gave us no choice. As it was, I spent a lot of time convincing Jon and Bill not to press charges against you for theft. I even managed to get you a week's severence.

Instead of being grateful that they gave you a break, you have become obsessed with trying to sabotage their business -- but your *BSD is dying posts are just silly. We move more product now than when you left. No one is calling and cancelling orders because of your anonymous messages on Slashdot.

I think that you could still have a bright future, but if this keeps up, Jon and Bill are going to get pissed off and have you brought up on criminal charges. Is that what you want? How many jobs will you get when potential employers see a criminal record that includes the theft of company computer equipment? Jon still has the laptop that he bought back from the pawn shop along with the company's original purchase records for it. He still has printouts of the ads you put up on ebay for the DLT auto-loader and the RAID array. There are records showing that your badge was used to gain entrance to the building at 2:13AM on the day that the equipment was stolen. On top of the thefts, we also have logs showing your attempts to break into the servers using your ID the evening after you were let go.

Do you want to end up being some guy's bitch in prison? That's what may happen if you keep this up. If you think that your shopping mall karate classes are going to do you any good there, you are in for a shock.

Tim

P.S. Please don't bother with denying this, who you are, and so forth. This started practically the day after you were let go. The writing style and the Kreskin reference leaves no doubt as to who's posting this. (Like someone else is going to go to that much trouble to discredit BSD and then not sign their name! Get real.)

Compare these to Clive Sinclair's C5 from 1985

[rufusdufus]

Clive Sinclair's C5 from 1985.
The idea was a huge loser then, and its a huge loser now. People will buy cars that do more, not less.

Re:Compare these to Clive Sinclair's C5 from 1985

[JaredOfEuropa]

Times have changed. In the days of the C5, it was highly unusual for a family to own two cars (at least around most of Europe). These days, many families have two cars, usually one that "does more" and another for driving around town, or a fun car like a small, impractical convertible.

Furthermore the C5 is not a car that "does less", it "does nothing". It is not a car to drive for fun, they seat only one and don't even carry your groceries. The only thing it is good for is getting one person around over a short distance, which a bicycle does that better and safer, giving a larger baggage capacity as well.

Many people are already buying small cars for town use. If these cars can be made into hybrids or air cars that are cheap to run and inexpensive to buy, they could be a big hit.

Re:Compare these to Clive Sinclair's C5 from 1985

[Anonymous Coward]

> People will buy cars that do more, not less.

Like the other comment said, times have changed. I'd buy a car which "does less" if it's more environmentally friendly. People care more about their environment than they did in 1985. :)

Aerodynamics for Dummies

[fmaxwell]

I like how they talk about making a powertrain that's efficient at cruising speeds, when they've stuck the thing in a pure sportbike frame. They should have built a big honking Goldwing clone, or at least something like the BMW sport-touring bikes. Pocket rockets are not the place to worry about miles-per-gallon.

Did it ever occur to you that, in order to make this thing efficient, they had to be concerned with aerodynamics and weight? A Goldwing is neither light nor does it have a low aerodynamic drag (relative to sportbike designs).

You can't make a 40mpg semi by pulling an engine from a Geo Metro and slapping it into a Peterbilt.

Re:Aerodynamics for Dummies

[mamba-mamba]

When the first high top speed bikes came out (I think the Ninja 1000 was the first) there were a lot of articles mentioning that the only way they could get to such high speeds (160 mph or so) was by being incredibly aerodynamic.

Weight wasn't that much of a concern in a bike designed for high top speed. IIRC, although the bike was reasonably fast (and really fast compared to a car) off the line and in the quarter mile, it wasn't a record breaker.

MM
--

Re:Aerodynamics for Dummies

[fmaxwell]

Weight wasn't that much of a concern in a bike designed for high top speed.

I referred to efficiency, not top speed. Weight affects acceleration. It takes much more energy to get an 800lb. touring bike from 0-60 than it takes to propel something like a lightweight GP250 bike to the same speed.

Cruising on the higway at 60, two bikes with the same coefficients of drag and frontal area will comparable mileage (give or take a bit for tire flex) even if one is twice as heavy. But in the real world, where there are stop lights, traffic jams, varying grades, and speed limits, the lighter bike will get far better effiiciency.

Since the purpose of this project bike is to get incredibly high fuel economy, it only stands to reason that they would not make it heavy.

Not really impressive - but this is!

[allanj]

That's nice - 180 MPG is roughly equivalent to 80 km/l to the imperial-challenged crowd. But check out the 100 km/l car done by Volkswagen(yes, that's 100 km to the litre, or 235 MPG if you don't like SI units). I'm not affiliated with Volkswagen or anything - it's just cool technology.

Re:Not really impressive - but this is!

[jeti]

Well - VW doesn't plan to sell any car like
that. The eBike, on the other hand, will
hopefully become available as a commercial
product.

Re:Not really impressive - but this is!

[El Puerco Loco]

One of the things VW says about that concept car is that it weighs about as much as a sport bike. There is no way that a car like that could meet safety standards for automobiles. It's basically a diesel powered golf cart. I thought I read somewhere recently though that they have a production model capable of over 90 mpg. ebike should skip the electrical part and just work on a more efficient diesel, there's no reason they shouldn't be able to get well over 100 mpg out of a small diesel bike, and avoid all the complexity of the hybrid model as well as the need to replace expensive batteries regularly.

Re:Not really impressive - but this is!

[allanj]

I think a motorcycle will have difficulty getting the same mileage as the VW concept car. The reason is aerodynamics - a closed entity like the VW is MUCH easier to control in terms of resistance to wind than is the case for a motorcycle, where the rider is part of the wind resistance. But I agree that dropping the electric engine would seem prudent.

Toyota is selling a limited number of RAV4 EVs

[silentbozo]

See this page to reserve one. You gotta be in California to qualify :(

About the air-powered car...

[Scaebor]

About the compressors on the air-powered car... Does this mean I can finally avoid the (small) fee to have my scuba and 4500 psi paintball air tanks refilled. They might be a little chilly, but could it work?

tango

[hpavc]

note that tango car in the pdf is parked next to a ferrari at the beach ... must be very worried about the environment and the many intellectual and moral costs of operating nasty emissions vehicles.

Nerd.

[DarkHelmet]

Now I can laugh at all those "gas-guzzling" Insight drivers as I zoom by!"

Ever see Revenge of the Nerds? Ever *wonder* why the car's cruise control is set at 35? THIS is why.

And you are a nerd.

Concept/prototype

[Moderation abuser]

It doesn't exist yet. You can't buy one.

Pffft, Water-Power!

[Lord Bitman]

Convert your car to run on just water
Fuel cells are for those who don't listen to crazy conspiracy theories.

Re:Pffft, Water-Power!

[madmarcel]

Hee hee hee hee

"Water Asteroids" ((rofl))

Ok, that site is funny...
((walks away shaking his head))

Great idea with the car but it's not going to work

[Regul8or]

We need newer, more efficient technologies(fuel cells), not new vehicles that derive energy from the same old sources and technologies. Energy doens't come from nowhere and if we all had electric cars then there would just be more coal burning power plants. Just think of the hybrid Toyota Prius. Where do you think the electricity comes from? It's batteries. How does it charge these batteries? From the engine and energy collected from braking. The energy collected from braking is not a significant amount of energy to constitute any real sigh of relief to an oil shortage problem. Electricity isn't a free thing, even for a hybrid car. Try turning your headlights on and all electrical accessories next time you're in your car and listen to the engine. You'll probably notice that the engine loses some RPMs and then comes back up to speed. That's because your modern day computer controlled vehicle just started giving the engine more fuel/air to make more power to compensate for the power you're demanding from it's alternator. We need efficiency. We need fuel cells.

Re:probably safer then petrol

[Anonymous Coward]

Why?

High pressure containers can be designed to fail safely. Simply put, the majority of the tank is stronger then it needs to be, then create intention weaker "seams". This encourages the tank to tear itself apart rather than disintegrating.

Why is tearing good? Because as the tank tears, the hole get bigger and the trapped gas can expand through a larger hole thereby decreasing the relative pressure. Combined with a kevlar webbing around the tank, and protection in the floor of the vehicle, these tanks are probably safer than petrol cars, simply because you can't burn to death.

For an illustration of this tearing effect, the easiest search is +fireworks + flowerpot. or look for failed oxygen cylinders.

Re:probably safer then petrol

[FTL]

Sanity from a coward? Mod the parent up!

I regularly carry a 4500 PSI tank under my arm...

[raehl]

And I don't give it a secoond thought. While I don't know what particular type of tank they're using here, I'd guess it's a carbon-fiber wrapped tank. They're actually pretty resilient - crushing damage isn't going to do much, as whatever pressure you manage to put on the side of the tank is going to be small compared to the 4500 PSI pushing back from the inside. Really the only likely way to fracture one is with some sort of piercing damage, and if that happens there's no shrapnel, the tank just kind of tears apart leaving you with a bunch of un-wound carbon fiber. You obviously wouldn't want this to happen right next to your ear, but other than that, as long as the passengers are separated from the tanks, safety shouldn't be an issue.

Hohum...wondering about the diesel-powered bike...

[madmarcel]

(worryhat)

I wonder...
- how much of the appeal of a motor-bike is in the noise they make?? ;^)
(And is this bike suitably noisy? :o )

It's got the 'neato' factor, it'll be even cheaper to run than a 'conventional' bike...it goes ..eh...pretty fast.
I'm not too thrilled about that white paint-job though ;)

And I have to wonder...'e-cycle' ...'beta-testers'...plenty of 'hip' buzzwords - always a sure sign of trouble (:|

And then the biggest worry: What if the bike breaks-down? Who has the parts and the knowledge to fix it?
(Same with all those neato hybrid-cars...I can see big bills for the ppl who buy them (:\ Mechanics will be thrilled though...

(/worryhat)

Mind you, considering the amount of computers they cram into these gizmo cars/bikes, us geeks will not have to worry about future-employment either ;)

While I'm at it...
I seem to remember that there are perhaps ((cough cough)) better 'intermediate' steps that could be used to move towards cleaner/more economic fuels, using the existing fuel-supply infrastructure.
i.e.
Dieselengines can run on a variety of (plant-extracted) oils without any/much modifications to the engine. These oils will (almost) burn clean, and because they're extracted from plants we'll never have to worry about running out. (Iraq? Kuwait? Where's that? Who cares! ;)

The problem with plant-based oils was/is the smell. Even worse than a smelly old diesel truck.

as an example:
There was a research-project a while back where a guy on some pacific island managed to get diesel-engines running on coconut-oil.The exhaust-fumes smelled of...donuts (I think).

((Sits back and expects price for least-coherent post of the day))
---------------

One question...

[Billobob]

Why are hybrid/electric/air cars so damn ugly? I mean, seriously, can't they just make them in the shape of a normal car?

Re:One question...

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean like the Honda Civic Hybrid?

or Powered air Car....

[Anonymous Coward]

recent news of the Moller Skycar

35MPG in a truck?

[Anonymous Coward]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! /.ers will say anything to win an argument.

I just checked Edmunds.com and a small pickup with a small engine like a Chevy S10 with the 2.2L four cylinder and a manual transmission gets 28mpg on the highway. Your 35 figure is either a) a lie or b) the result of bad math.

Re:35MPG in a truck?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yea.. I can't find one either.. Anyway it is probably Diesel and he probaby doesn't notice the large black fumes coming from his truck.

As for his argument that the hybrid cannot be repaired. Bah.. Maybe by him. Ugh this has electricity, ugh can't touch that.

Sounds like a hick to me

Sorry Viper, I am not impressed..

Re:35MPG in a truck?

[Anonymous Coward]

The smallest diesel powered truck available (in the US) is a Chevy Silverado 2500HD with the Duramax 6600 engine/Alison 5 spd auto transmission. According to the Diesel FAQ, such a vehicle should see 17-19MPG or 9-13 while towing.

Air cars!

[Anonymous Coward]

Ask and ye shall recieve

Paris-Dakar

[Perdo]

This bike would be nice with a BMW style 17.5 gallon fuel tank.

That works out to just over a 3000 mile range...

Have a nice trip across the United States and then up to Alaska.

You would have to gas up to come back.

Re:Great idea with the car but it's not going to w

[Anonymous Coward]

And where do you think the hydrogen in those magical fuel cells of yours is going to come from?

That's right, water that is split into hydrogen and oxygen by electricity from those same power plants.

Fuel cells are not a new fuel source--they are an energy transmission medium.

Maybe when you can collect all that free hydrogen in outerspace and pipe it down to earth you might have a something.

LPG/Petrol hybrids alive and well in the UK

[AnnaBlack]

I have no idea if you lot over in the USA have these, but here in the UK you can get government grants to convert your gasoline (petrol)-powered car to dual-fuel LPG (Liquified Petroleum Gas, a mixture of propane and butane, also called Autogas). Whilst this is, of course, still a fossil fuel, there are benefits in terms of emissions and fuel economy.

Enclosed Bike?

[HeyBob!]

What ever happened to the German enclosed bike? I saw it once on Beyond2000 around 1995. It was 2 wheeled, but when you came to a stop, side-wheels came down on either side.

Re:Enclosed Bike?

[HeyBob!]

Oop - found some info myself:
http://www.motobykz.co.uk/Ecomobile/Perav es_Ecomob ile.htm
http://www.bmw.co.uk/c1/
http://www.corb inmotors.com/products_sparrow1.html

So does Motor Trend magazine

[MtViewGuy]

What's interesting is that Honda may have done a better job creating a real car using a hybrid drivetrain than what Toyota did with the Prius, according to Motor Trend magazine in a recent review.

The problem with the Prius is that while is quite roomy for its size and has good pep for the hybrid drivetrain, the road handling and the quirky ergonomics of the car may not be to everyone's tastes. Because the Honda Civic Hybrid is based upon the current model Civic four-door sedan, you get exactly the same interior arrangements as the current Civic (which is quite good), though the instrument panel is a little different (to reflect operation of the Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) hybrid drive system) and you do lose a little trunk space in order to accommodate the electric motor batteries.

I've driven the Civic Hybrid sedan with the CVT automatic and it's actually quite good, with decent acceleration thanks to the CVT transmission. If I had the money I'd trade in my Civic HX CVT coupe for the Civic Hybrid sedan with CVT automatic. :-)

Hybrids are a better solution for now

[MtViewGuy]

I think electric/fossil-fuel hybrids are the way to go for now until the arrival of low-cost, practical fuel-cell engines.

The Toyota Prius, Honda Insight and Honda Civic Hybrid have demonstrated you can get a very practical car with good driveability, very low emissions, and most importantly long range. Why get a car with 70-100 mile range (at best) when you can get something that can be used as a daily driver and also take a small family on long trips?

It's small wonder why both Toyota and Honda have begun to expand hybrid technology to their other model lines. Don't be surprised within a few years we'll be seeing small vans and station wagons with hybrid drivetrains from both Toyota and Honda; Toyota has stated they may produce a hybrid version of the Corolla and Honda is looking at putting hybrids into the Latitude (neé Stream) minivan and Jazz supermini hatchback.

Re:Hybrids are a better solution for now

[Grishnakh]

This may have changed, but I read somewhere that Honda actually planned to put hybrid drivetrains on ALL their vehicles by 2005.

hackshack?

[apsmith]

A few seconds after I touched the ecycle site, my firewall logged an incoming attempt from somebody at 208.245.238.225, trying to connect to port 80 on the home machine. That IP address resolves to:

225.238.245.208.in-addr.arpa. domain name pointer mail.ecycle.com.
225.238.245.208.in-addr.arpa. domain name pointer ecycle.com.
225.238.245.208.in-addr.arpa. domain name pointer e-cycle.com.
225.238.245.208.in-addr.arpa. domain name pointer ftp.ecycle.com.
225.238.245.208.in-addr.arpa. domain name pointer ftp.e-cycle.com.
225.238.245.208.in-addr.arpa. domain name pointer www.ecycle.com.
225.238.245.208.in-addr.arpa. domain name pointer www.e-cycle.com.

Anybody else see this? Are they infected with something? What are they trying to do there?

Re:hackshack?

[perrin5]

Not that this thread should really be continued, but maybe you feel like posting the actual log entry? Just for curiosity's sake?

Re:I regularly carry a 4500 PSI tank under my arm.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah right. Have you ever been around when a 4000 psi scuba tank explodes?

Most of the time there is no shrapnel because the tank just tears. BUT I've seen the tanks themselves go through 2 ft concrete walls, shoot across a street and lodge into the brick wall of a neighboring building about 150+ feet away.

Of course those tanks are metal, but I would hardly declare those tanks as safe especially since they are much more likely to be ruptured in an accident. Scuba tanks don't really have to suffer much abuse compared to to a 3000 lb vehicle smashing them.

Improving Battery Life

[Vegan Pagan]

How much could they extend the battery life by putting photovoltaic panels on top of the air powered vehicles?

Re:Improving Battery Life

[horza]

Probably wouldn't help much with _todays_ technology. The air powered vehicles are deliberately *very* light and the solar panels you can buy at the moment tend to be a little heavy (hence will reduce the already marginally acceptable speed). There is work being done on solar cells (afaicr) that are so thin they can almost be painted on. That will certainly help, though it depends obviously on cost.

Phillip.

ford's escape...

[r0b0t b0y]

i'm personally waiting for next year's escape offering from ford.

it's an HEV and looks like it shares alot of the characteristics/fuel-saving properties of the ULEV honda civic. (hybrid, regenerative braking, etc)

it's only about 40 mpg, but that's still pretty impressive for an SUV when other big cars have ridiculous mileage (ie: escalade : 11 mpg).

i drove an escape for an entire summer once while i had a summer internship and they paid for it (sigh...those were the days), and that car is damned fun.

Re:ford's escape...

[Anonymous Coward]

I think this car will sell very well. It offers a high MPG rate and it looks just like the other gas only model. If it can perform as good, I think it will change some people's minds on ULEV cars. Other manufacteurs should try and fit both engines in their cars. They don't have to look like aerodyamic tubes. People want their cars to be useful, and they don't want to buy a ton of gas either.

I just have one question

[Racine]

Electric cars sound great, but how is the electricity that they need normally produced? Burning coal?

Re:I just have one question

[mamba-mamba]

Electric cars sound great, but how is the electricity that they need normally produced? Burning coal?

The same way electricity is produced for other uses. By a mixture of hydro-electric, coal-burning, gas-burning, oil-burning, and nuclear power plants, in no particular order. And I may have left some out.

But keep in mind that by using the electric grid interface, you shift the pollution source from a small, mobile, inefficient and hard to monitor power plant (automobile) to a large, (relatively) efficient, easy to monitor and regulate power plant.

And if and when we develop cleaner power plant technologies, the benefit automatically accrues to everybody. For example, if we ever find a way to create bio-reactors that harness incident sunlight to liberate oxygen and hydrogen, then we can use the hydrogen in large power plants just as easily (perhaps even more so) as we could in automobiles.

I'm not saying that pure electric cars with storage batteries is the way to go. I'm just pointing out that there is more to it than your question would imply.

MM
--

You can buy 200mpg Diesel bikes already.

[Moderation abuser]

No kidding. They make them in India, based on the Enfield bullet. Top speed is about 50mph, acceleration is like treacle and they won't meet emissions regulations.

Oddly enough, they're not very popular.

Re:You can buy 200mpg Diesel bikes already.

[El Puerco Loco]

ah yes, the enfield taurus with a whopping 6 hp engine. there is also a diesel bike designed for military use that gets 120 mpg and tops out at 85 mph. that's around 40-50 more mpg than most gasoline powered bikes and the performance is perfectly reasonable for personal transportation. the bike is based on a stock frame, if it was redesigned around a lightweight aerodynamic frame, and perhaps a slightly smaller engine, you could probably have a bike with increased efficiency and similar performance. the hybrid just seems way too complicated, although i'm sure they're counting on the hype surrounding the gas/electric hybrid concept to sell the thing to lots of hippie enviro whackos.

Exhaust filter: PM10s

[Moderation abuser]

10 micrometre particles of carbon. Bad for the lungs.

http://www.eq.state.ut.us/EQAMC/Pm10.htm

Crunch

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm gonna laugh at your ass after your cycle folds when it runs into a signpost

maybe i missed it, but is this more effic?

[Anonymous Coward]

So yea. Did I miss something or did this company make a 0 emission car and fail to explain how that will reduce emissions? If suddenly we have to use the SAME if not more amount of energy in electricity for charging the car then we are burning more coal and taxing the electirc usage of our world. What we need is not a conversion of power, but a method that has low or no emissions and is also efficient, which this article just doesn't even mention...

Myths

[Anonymous Coward]

The so-called "Big Dirty" power grid is far more efficient and polutes less than any small motor does. Even in a ultra super clean vehical like the Prius (which I own) you get much higher levels of polution for the amount of energy you produce from the fuel you directly use than the least clean coal burning plants. Using compressed natural gas in a more conventional engine really wouldn't make a difference in this regard. And frankly there are many natural gas fired electrical plants already.

The simple fact of the matter is that large power plants are 60-80% efficient at extracting the energy out of fuels, while the power plant in a vehical is 5-10% efficient. In fact, most of the fuel economy in electric and hybrid cars comes from the regenerative braking system taking the energy that is lost in a conventional car and storing it for when you accelerate again.

Of course, once we get fuel cells that actually work then that won't be true anymore, because the catalytic buring of the fuel inside a fuel cell is at 90-95% efficiency.

At that point compressed natural gas would be a great choice.

6 seconds!?

[Ridge]

eCycle's has an "acceleration of 0-60 mph in 6 seconds." Bah. When you're on a crotch rocket and you absolutely, positively gots to go 0-60 mph in 2 seconds or less, accept no substitutes. [Ducati.com]

Of course, a Ducati, is a bit more pricey and more of a natural resource hog, but nothing beats accelerating until your brains splatter on the pavement.

Re:6 seconds!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Duc's are slooooow.... Unless you're with WSB and can replace the bike with all of the race parts (read: $8,000 rims, $80,000 forks, $6,000 rear shock, back-cut trans, mill'd head, krio'd coils, etc...)

0-60 in 2 secs on a Duc? Good luck on a dry clutch.

Duc's look great and sound nice but, almost any modern 600cc inline 4 will pass it on one wheel. Guys who can't handle cruzing speeds of 160+ but want non-riders to think they're cool ride Duc'ies.

SUVs, Hybrids, and foreign oil

[kilonad]

Recently we had to do an estimation problem in our physics class. The question was how much gas would the US save each year if every SUV driver drove a hybrid instead. My group came up with a savings of almost 14 billion gallons of gas per year. (20m SUVs -> Hybrids, 15mpg/suv, 45mpg/hybrid, 15k mi/year) Which is apparently almost exactly the amount of oil our country imports every year. I'm patriotic and all, but I'm really tired of seeing the American flag on EVERYTHING, EVERYWHERE I go. If our fellow Americans truly wanted to be patriotic and hit the middle east where it hurts, we'd trade in our gas guzzling SUVs and eliminate the need for imported oil.

Re:SUVs, Hybrids, and foreign oil

[mamba-mamba]

14 billion gallons of gas per year? That sounds low.

According to one chart I found (http://www.public-i.org/Latam_Importsl_tables.htm ), The US imported in the year 2000 about 4 million barrels of crude oil per day from Latin America and the Persian Gulf combined. One barrel can make about 20 gallons of gasoline, and there are 365 days in a year, so that works out to:

4,000,000 * 365 * 20 = 29,200,000,000

So that is 29 billion gallons of gas made from oil imported into the US in the year 2000. That's more than twice as much as you said. I doubt it has come down that much since 2000, but I don't know.

I didn't check any of your other math or statistics, but 45 MPG sounds pretty high for anything shaped like an SUV!

MM
--

What about the Air Hog?

[cornicefire]

Those little planes run on compressed gas turning a piston. It sure seems like a good proof of concept to me. But, on the other hand, those planes aren't that heavy and they sure don't fly very far. Certainly not 150 miles. I wonder if they can really pack that much energy in a small place, even if it's only air.

Alternitives to the major manufacturers

[h3llphyre]

I am happy to see other companies get into the "alternitve" powered vehicles for a few different reasons. The first being, that they have few, if any, ties to the oil companies, which LOVE to inhibit any move away from petroleum. A few comments I have on hybrids...

I am EXTREMELY happy to see a diesel hybrid. For some reason, every big car company has shied away from diesel in place of the petrol engines they use. Diesel engines are more efficient and CAN be clean. The reason US diesel engines are dirty is because the refineries REFUSE to add one more step in removing the sulfur from the fuel. They do this in europe, which leads to a MASSIVE assortment of diesel engines varying in size and power. I tend to think, they could make a diesel hyrid that could easily get 80mpg in a car and still have decent power. If they could get an efficient CVT with a turbo-diesel hybrid, they could take over the hybrid market in every country. But, I wont expect that any time soon.

Oh come on

[Anonymous Coward]

eCycle is developing a hybrid diesel / electric motorcycle designed to get 180 miles per gallon. The small diesel engine kicks in at speeds over 12mph

Oh come on already, I have a NORMAL honda motorcycle and I get ~ 100 mpg out of GASOLINE without having to fuck with electric motors and messy diesel. I also can go a FUCK lot faster than 12 mph!

Re:Great idea with the car but it's not going to w

[mamba-mamba]

You seem to be laboring under some illusions, and you are taking for granted quite a bit of analysis.

First of all, your statement that "Energy doens't come from nowhere and if we all had electric cars then there would just be more coal burning power plants," applies equally well to fuel-cell cars.

The fuel in a fuel-cell has chemical potential energy, which is converted into electrical potential energy, and then kinetic potential energy. But to create the fuel requires putting energy in up front. There are a lot of candidate fuels for fuel cell technology, but the bottom line is that you either need to make fuel by putting energy in, or convert an existing fuel into a useable form. In the former case, you need to put fuel in to the system, in the latter you are using fuel. I know that in theory, you could use solar to directly liberate hydrogen or something, but for now that is not going to happen. And in any event, that same technology could be used to replace coal plants, too, which nullifies your complaint about pure electric cars.

Then you seem to imply that there is no energy efficiency gain from compressed air cars. I am somewhat willing to believe this, but do you have some kind of argument which supports this implicit claim?

Something that you are overlooking is economy of scale in large power plants. While it is true that if we were all driving electric cars, we would need a beefed-up electric grid, it is also true that big electric plants are more efficient than cars in extracting energy, and that they are also easier to regulate and monitor.

Also, one of the reasons that hybrid electric vehicles get good overall mileage is that the motor is optimized for a narrow load range, unlike conventional automobile motors which have to supply reasonable torque over a wide RPM range. This means that the hybrid power plants can be more efficient and/or simpler.

Finally, I have never seen a detailed energy analysis of the fuel-cell energy cycle. If you postulate wide-scale adoption of this technology, does it actually lead to reduced consumption of fossil fuels or not? I am willing to believe that it does, but I am not swayed by your unsupported assertion.

MM
--

Fuel Cells

[otuz]

Well.. where are the fuel cells? Did the oil monopolies win already?

Biodiesel

[DivideByZero]

Diesel engines can run on a variety of (plant-extracted) oils without any/much modifications to the engine.

I think the magic Google word you're looking for here is Biodiesel.

The problem is, of course, that the nation uses lots of frying grease, but nowhere near enough to replace Gasoline.

I believe there's a rather extensive intro article on Biodiesel in Home Power(Apologies for PDF - They're lame, but what do you do?), which should answer most of the questions you never had about the subject. :)

Several Problems

[dissonant7]

It's an interesting idea, but there are several problems with the overall design. For one, it looks like the seating position is fairly agressive, like a sportbike, so you probably aren't going to want to go 180 miles or more on this thing. The seat itself looks tiny and uncomfortable. For another, 0-60 in 6 seconds on a motorcycle is pretty slow, especially one that looks like it's supposed to be a sport bike. Lasty, I speculate that such a small (~250 cc) direct injection diesel combined with an electric motor is going to have serious surging issues, which are no fun (ride an "unfixed" BMW F650GS and you'll see what I mean). Direct injection diesel might not do too well here in the states either due to a slightly different formulation. And really, motorcycles are already pretty fuel efficient. If you really want to do some good IMHO, develop fuel efficient SUVs, pickups, 18 wheelers, buses, and marine engines.

Can't make the numbers add up...

[panurge]

Let me confess an interest. I have been trying to design a workable electric bike for some time, and concluded that the current battery technology just isn't anywhere near adequate. And my requirement is a measly 2000W/30mph.

So: 0 to 60 in 6 seconds. Well, yes, my little Italian 125cc racer could manage that years ago. It weighed about the same. It also put out about 25hp., was a pig to keep on the boil, and used quite a lot of gas. A quick back of envelope calculation suggests that the electric hybrid would need a combined output (elec + diesel) of around 20 hp to get the same result. There doesn't seem to be enough power there.

Nor, in fact, does there seem to be enough power to maintain a sustained 80mph. That little 200cc Diesel can't do it, and the batteries run down when using the electric motor as well.

Ah well, let's just wait for the fuel cell to fulfil the promise it's been showing for the last 50 years or so...

Re:Great idea with the car but it's not going to w

[Regul8or]

I said we need newer technologies. "more efficient technologies(fuel cells)"

Re:Great idea with the car but it's not going to w

[Regul8or]

"First of all, your statement that "Energy doens't come from nowhere and if we all had electric cars then there would just be more coal burning power plants," applies equally well to fuel-cell cars."

Of course it does, that's why I said we need new technologies. I never said fuel cells produce energy from nothingness.

"And in any event, that same technology could be used to replace coal plants, too, which nullifies your complaint about pure electric cars."

America uses way too much coal power. Which do you think will take the energy producing market first? Fuel cell vehicles or fuel cell power plants?

"Something that you are overlooking is economy of scale in large power plants. While it is true that if we were all driving electric cars, we would need a beefed-up electric grid, it is also true that big electric plants are more efficient than cars in extracting energy, and that they are also easier to regulate and monitor."

Valid point but we still use too much coal for power plants.

"Also, one of the reasons that hybrid electric vehicles get good overall mileage is that the motor is optimized for a narrow load range, unlike conventional automobile motors which have to supply reasonable torque over a wide RPM range. This means that the hybrid power plants can be more efficient and/or simpler."

This can be done with any motor. But... everyone in American wants to drive a Ford Excursion.

"Finally, I have never seen a detailed energy analysis of the fuel-cell energy cycle."

Fuel cells have energy efficiency ratings of around 50% whereas internal combustion engines running on gasoline have about a 25% efficiency.

Mod an electric to a hybrid?

[silentbozo]

No, not a gas generator. Those things have horrible efficiency, and no emissions controls whatsoever. What about a fuel cell though? Install one in the trunk, duct the air intake from under the chassis, duct the steam output to a "tailpipe", and leave that sucker on all the time to trickle-charge the batteries, in conjunction with an external charger. Make sure to get rid of the inverter, so you can bypass all that charging inefficiency to feed DC directly to the battery pack. Of course, this increases the high cost of your electric by another 10K or so...

Sigh. Maybe sticking a patch of solar cells on your roof would work better.

Re:Mod an electric to a hybrid?

[Phil Karn]

This is actually not a bad idea. Traditionally, fuel cells have a low power-to-weight ratio, much lower than rechargeable batteries. Most of the work done on fuel cells in recent years has been to increase their power/weight ratio to something that can provide reasonable acceleration in a car. You generally do this by increasing the reaction area, but you have to do it without spending too much money on expensive catalysts like platinum.

So this does suggest the possibility of a hybrid battery/fuel cell car where the fuel cell need only handle the car's average cruising power needs, while the battery is used for acceleration, hill climbing and regenerative braking. A reasonably efficient EV uses less than 10 kW to cruise at freeway speeds on level ground, while over 100 kW may be used during maximum acceleration.

Also, if the battery is reasonably large then it can provide all of the energy required for short trips around town. It can then be recharged from stationary sources without having to operate the fuel cell at all. This would be the best of both worlds. On short trips, you'd benefit from the greater efficiency and source diversity of large stationary power plants, and you'd never have to go to a fueling station. On longer trips, you'd have the greater range and quick refueling features of the fuel cell.

This is my chief objection to the hybrid cars now on their market; their batteries are too small to provide any significant electric-only range even on short trips, and there is no way to charge them from external electricity sources.

Re:Mod an electric to a hybrid?

[silentbozo]

Can't you augment them with a secondary battery pack? One that can be charged using publicly available chargers?

Personally, I'm still kind of bummed to find that the RAV4 EV costs well in excess of $40k - even with the $13k in rebates and tax credits, that's still over twice what the gas model costs, without hybrid fuel capability.

Tango weeble wobble

[ziegast]

From the Tango article:

UPDATE 9/5/01: Our U.S. utility patent case for an "Ultra-Narrow Automobile Stabilized With Ballast" has just been allowed. International patent applications are in progress

Reminds me of Weeble Wobbles. "They weeble and they wobble but they don't fall down!"

So if it gets hit by a truck and goes flying for fifty feet, will it land right-side up?

-ez

that's interesting but...

[Mr. White]

Please note that motorcycles already deliver fuel efficiency far more superior to fuel efficiency of cars.

For example, Harley-Davidson's Blast 492cc motorcycle gets 69mpg (city) and 73mpg (highway) and retails for $4,395. (source)
And that's the first bike I could find details on. There are bikes that are better.
Witold
www.witold.org

How to Extend Range of Compressed Air Cars

[pfdietz]

His design heats the air to ambient temperature. You can get more work if the air is heated to a higher temperature. For example, heating it to 600 K will roughly double the work for a given quantity of air.

You could burn a fuel (external combustion engine), or you could use a 'thermal battery', which stores heat in a high temperature material in a vacuum insulated container. One can readily exceed 1 MJ/kg; this is much higher than the storage density of lead-acid batteries.

VW TDIs

[Tumbleweed]

You can also get the TDI in the New Beetle. The neat thing about the TDI VWs is that while the horsepower is only around 90-something, the torque is around 150 or 155. That'll make for some nice acceleration, which many people appreciate.

Air Cars

[Howling Loon]

Cough cough... second law of thermodynamics... cough cough... an MIT enterprise... ROFLMAO!

it looks like ass

[cr@ckwhore]

I'd love to have one of those motorcycles, but it looks like crap. I don't know why the people designing hybrid vehicles insist on making them look like shit ... don't they get it? Build a hybrid vehicle that looks NORMAL, and people will buy it.

1992 Honda Civic VX

[PineHall]

I own a 1992 Honda Civic VX. During the summer months I have been getting between 50 to 55 mpg. (Winter it will drop to 45-50 mpg.) My car is 10 years old. Why is it that Honda's best mpg car is just as good as my 10 year old car?

In 1992 it had the second best gas mileage rating (52 mpg on the highway) of all the cars. Geo Metro which was a much smaller car had better mpg. The only difference between my Honda Civic VX and the other Honda Civics was the engine. Why is it they can not do better?

The US has cheaper fuel.. so Europe needs 100mpg!

[wackybrit]

Correct. I have a Mercedes C200 that was converted to LPG. Got no grant, but hey.

It works out about 6.9p (about 10.5 cents) per mile in the Merc now on LPG.. whereas my Corsa 1.2l works out at about 9.6p (about 15 cents) per mile.. so I can drive a 2 litre Merc for cheaper than a 1.2l Corsa ;-)

Of course, the fact that fuel is three to four times more expensive in Europe means that even a 100mpg car is only /just/ going to be approaching the economy of a regular American car. :-(

Volkswagen LUPO get s100mpg (Canadian)

[Anonymous Coward]

There already is an alternative to the Honda Civic, but they don't bring it into North America (I wonder why??) The Volkswagen Lupo:
http://www.volkswagen.de/lupo/daten/motoren /45kwtd i.htm
It also has a top speed of 170km/h (100mph +). It has a 3-Cylinder Diesel TDI motor. The fuel economy is outrageous with a combined (city/highway) usage of 3.0 - 3.2 L/100km or 94mpg (Can.)

Re:The US has cheaper fuel.. so Europe needs 100mp

[Anonymous Coward]

I run a truck on propane LPG fuel it was converted from gasoline.

In some states like NM you save a lot of money since propane relatively easy to find and it is a little cheaper than gas.

But is California it all depends where you live, around San Francisco propane is very hard to find, it is usually very expensive, sometimes up to $3 a gallon, which makes it a lot more expensive than gasoline, in best case it is equal.
The exeption seems to be Los Angeles, where I have seen propane for as little as $1.10 a galon.

Another problem with propane in California, is that emission laws do not make any sence, it does not matter if your vehicle burns really clean if it does not meet other requirements, like a visual inspection.
Due to that visual inspection a propane vehicle is a huge headache to register is california.
In reality you have to go to the referee station, any other station will not do the emission check if you run on propane, the referee will ask you for some legal documents that prove that the equipment is legal in the state of california with the governor approval, usally the maker of the propany kits keep track of this, but the legaly depends on the year of the vehicle and the type of kit, in other words a vehicle that is perfecly legal in NM may not be legal in california.
When I needed work to the done on my vehicle to route some vacum hoses to comply to California law, no shop would due that for liability reasons and the lack of knowledge of propane, the nerest place was in L.A. and in Sacramento, so I got a manual and routed the houses according to the law.
It all worked out fine, it passed the visual inspection and the exaust check, but it took an entire month of paperwork, and getting the needed info.

So for all practical purposes a propany vehicle is ilegal in California, unless you are willing to go through massive paperwork in order to get it registered which in some cases it is not posible, I got lucky the kit I had fitted in the year range acceptable by DMV.

So basically propane is highly discourage in California, nevertheless here they always talk about passing laws for clean air. What a contradiction!!!!

In NM the registration for a propane vehicle is very simple it is just treated equal to a gasoline vehicle, and you can modify anything as long as it burns clean.

I do not know about other states.

I now use the truck mostly in Mexico, and the saving here is huge, propane is half the price, and there are a lot of places that work on propane vehicles.

Note, I never got any tax break in USA for the propane convertion.

The LPG/gasoline price difference

[wackybrit]

It is interesting to hear about LPG use in the States.

You seem to have lower fuel costs locally, but I have to wonder if it's really worth the conversion price in the US. In Europe, things are different.

Gasoline is about 75p ($1.12) per *litre* (about 3.9 litres to the US gallon).. so about $4.39 per gallon to you.

LPG, on the other hand, is about 35p (51 cents) pet litre, about $1.98 per gallon to you. However, if you do a lot of travelling around Europe, you can get LPG as low as 19p per litre ($1.11 per US gal) in Belgium, for example.

Compare $1.11 with $4.39, and you can see why LPG should be popular here. In the US, it sounds as if there is little reason to switch, other than for environmental ideals.

Why it still smells of bubble gum!

[Latent Heat]

I coulda told ya GM was planning on crushing EV-1's the day you could only drive one on a lease.

Tucker didn't crush his 50 "beta-test" cars, and now each one is this priceless collectors item. Chrysler crushed all the Chrysler Turbine cars, supposedly for tax reasons but the real reason was not providing a windfall for lucky collectors. GM has done the same thing. Don't you think those EV-1's would become incredible trophies for collectors?

78mpg Today

[opkool]

Check out the VW Lupo TDi .

The mileage is "3 Litern auf 100 km", and this translates to, roughly, +78mpg.

Remember:
1US Galon = 3.789 L
1 mile = 1.609 Km

And you can buy it today... if you live in Europe.

Re:78mpg Today

[allanj]

I'm quite familiar with the VW Lupo 3L - it's very popular in my country (Denmark). Several of my previous co-workers bought them, and if they drive them carefully, they do get 30+ km/l out of them. Impressive.

Diesel fuel economy

[Latent Heat]

#2 Diesel have about 10 percent more BTU's gallon than gasoline, so you need to take 10 percent off your Diesel EPA ratings (38/44) to come up with equal numbers to any gas-engine car.

Why doesn't #2 Diesel cost 10 percent more than gasoline. Well, actually it does, or it would. During the winter, gasoline is about 10 cents a gal cheaper than 87-octane nolead, but in the summer, with everyone sucking up gas in the RV's and SUV's, and refining capacity fixed by a conspiracy of refiners and environmentalists (heck, I wouldn't want a refinary next door either, and limiting capacity boosts prices and serves industry interests as well), there is a 20 cent premium for gas over Diesel.

Last Post!

[alpg]

Home centers are designed for the do-it-yourselfer who's willing to
pay higher prices for the convenience of being able to shop for lumber,
hardware, and toasters all in one location. Notice I say "shop for," as
opposed to "obtain." This is the major drawback of home centers: they are
always out of everything except artificial Christmas trees. The home center
employees have no time to reorder merchandise because they are too busy
applying little price stickers to every object -- every board, washer, nail
and screw -- in the entire store ...

Let's say a piece in your toilet tank breaks, so you remove the
broken part, take it to the home center, and ask an employee if he has a
replacement. The employee, who has never is his life even seen the inside
of a toilet tank, will peer at the broken part in very much the same way
that a member of a primitive Amazon jungle tribe would look at an electronic
calculator, and then say, "We're expecting a shipment of these sometime
around the middle of next week."
-- Dave Barry, "The Taming of the Screw"

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