GRE Computer Science Exam Canceled For '02

An anonymous reader writes "This may be a bit dated, but the Educational Testing Service has canceled the Computer Science GRE exam for November due to the fact that students were sharing and posting exam questions. One has to wonder about the immediate effect this will have on grad school admittance, as well as the long term changes that will likely occur to the tests as a result."

Comments

Ho

[Anonymous Coward]

...hum...like this kind of thing has never happened before.

Re:Ho

[pyr0]

Hmm, they got rid of the Geology GRE a couple years back as well. I never did figure out why, and I don't think people were posting questions from it online. Maybe they're just trying to get rid of the subject GRE tests?

sharing?

[matt4077]

that's what I call peer2peer education!

How much do the scores count?

[d-rock]

Does anyone know how much the scores count towards admissions? I'm sure there are some number-oriented schools out there, but I would assume they're also taking a good look at your academic achievements and personal statement, as well as your general GRE scores.

Derek

Re:How much do the scores count?

[rakarnik]

Most schools do not require the GRE computer science test. I am currently in a graduate CS program and did not take the computer science GRE, only the general test.

Of course, taking the test can only help your application, unless you make a terrible mess of it.

Re:How much do the scores count?

[Anonymous Coward]

The GRE Computer Science exam counts more than one would think. If you ever want to get into a good (read top 10) Ph.D. program you need to place yourself in the 85 percentile. This, of course, is no easy task. The test is comprehensive of all major areas of computer science.

Many overseas master's students take this exam to try to place themselves in a good U.S. program. (which is understandable) I don't think all of them were cheating. It was probably only a few, but ETS needs to be able make sure that all students have a fair chance.

Yes, I have taken this exam.
Yes, I got my a** kicked by it.
Yes, I got into a good Master's Program.
Yes, I got a job!
Go ME!

Re:How much do the scores count?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just curious, when did you get your job? I'm applying to grad school after getting my BS CS. I've interviewed with several companies and spent thousands of hours job hunting with only polite rejections.

Re:How much do the scores count?

[GeorgePBurdell]

I'll say at the outset that I don't know what these scores count for in Comp Sci grad school.

However, as a former Humanities grad school slave (yeah, do you want fries with that?), I can tell you that the subject test in English for the GRE counts for EVERYTHING in the grad school application for English. Went to a shoddy undergrad? Have a 2.4 gpa? Aced the GRE subject test? NO problems. Welcome to Columbia, Yale, etc.

Re:How much do the scores count?

[theperplepigg]

i'm a CS grad student and didn't have to take the CS test, but merely the general test. i'm not fully sure, but i think GRE scores are much more important for foreign students. However, if you want to go to grad school and your undergrad GPA is shit, then acing the GRE is a good way to get past that limitation (this is, in fact, what i did). However, a chinese friend of mine actually did better than me on verbal, for one, which surprised me, until i realized why. They HAVE to study harder and do better, because, as someone said in another post, international GRE scores are often a joke, and since there are so many foreign applicants, they have to do better than all the rest. American students have an "in" just being american, because it is often easier to get grants and funding for american students. so, only that top .5% of foreign applicants actually get accepted (and then they still have to worry about the percentage of visas issued, etc). all in all - does it matter? yes, but especially YES if you are not american. (this is, of course, assuming you are applying to american schools!!)
--paul

Re:How much do the scores count?

[Tom7]

At CMU, what they say is, "They can hurt, but they can't help." Most strong applicants have fairly high GRE scores (700+), and once you're in the pool of applications they're considering, they don't look at the GRE scores again. The General GRE scores probably matter even less.

Re:How much do the scores count?

[Anonymous Coward]

I sat on an Graduate Admissions Committee for one state-funded institution (top 10 ranking by US News and World Reports). My observations were as follows:

1. Test scores were generally good to excellent. The students who did not score well did not seem to apply, generally.
2. Test scores could eliminate you (the scores had to be really BAD, across the board) but would NOT flag you as "Must Admit".
3. The reference letters were far more informative than the transcripts and GRE scores. A glowing recommendation from a well-known and well-respected researcher carried far more weight than the test scores.

Cancelling the subject test is an inconvenience to some students. There are numerous opportunities for grad school that do not require a subject test score. Even schools that do require a subject test score can "overlook" the requirement for truly outstanding students.

Re:How much do the scores count?

[f97tosc]

Even if many schools insist on good GRE scores they usually make exceptions. As an undergrad at Caltech, I had a prof from abroad who had checked the answer 'b' on every question on the GRE verbal - but he was still admitted to grad scool at Caltech.

I got invited to stay as a grad student there because of the research I did as an undergrad - I did not have time to take the test.

Tor

Re:How much do the scores count?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a faculty on an admissions committee at a small but good department. I look for evidence of research productivity first, if a student has refereed publications or patents, we take them seriously. We then look closely at letters of recommendation (if Don Knuth says you are good, we would believe it). Letters from people we know (recognized leaders in the field) are strongest, letters from some middle manager at a dot.com don't matter much. We also look at your undergraduate institution, and your GPA. GREs help most when we don't know the institution so well, and we want to make a comparison. However, with Asians, the problems of inflated GREs has been well known for a while now, so we flag bad GRE scores. GRE scores administered in the U.S. and Europe carry more weight, as do good schools. So my advice to undergrads wishing to get into a good graduate program is to focus less on grades (if they are good enough) and more on research. If you want a professional masters (no Ph.D.) then grades are enough (but you might need to self fund).

Re:How much do the scores count?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you ever want to get into a good (read top 10) Ph.D. program you need to place yourself in the 85 percentile.

85th? I'm in a top 10 CS PhD program, and I know quite a few people who didn't get >= 85th percentile.

Those darn hackers!

[Anonymous Coward]

Gee, as if this is a new practice, and as if this is limited to the computer science exam. How ridiculous.

Does this policy reflect that the exam results would be even more useless than their typical exam results?

Gee, maybe now they'll have to invest some money INTO the exam, versus simply owning a cash cow. God fordid if they have to continually invest in the exams... middle management would have to lose their BMWs and Mercedes!

Re:Those darn hackers!

[Angry White Guy]

We're just better at pirating the exams than the Phys. Ed. department. Go figure.

Well, at least they passed the first question

[matrim99]

Well, they at least passed the first question:
1) Can you use a computer well enough to share information?

Never happened before

[LRNG_LNX]

Exactly. While I was at school, an instructor pointed me toward the MCSE "brain dump" site. I never bothered to remember it because I am not planning on becoming MS certified. People would go there after the test and submit as many questions as they could remember from the test.

In high schools, first period Chem students would share info on the test to the later period Chem students. How much info can be retained with so little time to cache it?

Was it actual test questions? Or just pointing people in a more focused direction?

How many tests have you taken where half of the "knowledge" was "researchable material?" What year did the OSI model come to be? That was an exam question I faced on a multiple choice exam. I wrote in my own answer . . . E) go look it up because I don't need to know that to set up a network.

Re:Never happened before

[gTsiros]

Bad answer. Not wrong, just bad. There's a reason they asked that. If you could answer that question correctly it would mean that you know so much that you even know what year it was introduced.

Re:Never happened before

[Rich0]

Keep in mind that with a test like the GRE you have a pool of only a couple hundred questions, and thousands of people taking the test. If a website were written which assigned you a random question number to memorize (just a single question), and then you reported back after taking the test, chances are you would form a library of almost the entire question pool - you'd have a number of people memorizing each question.

Yes - I realize the order of the questions - and even the selection - varies from form to form. There wouldn't be just 1 person memorizing question #2 - there would probably be 50. So you might get 10 different answers 5 times each - but the point is that you would get the questions.

I believe the questions are rather heavily recycyled - that is part of the benefit of hte tests since you can use the recycled questions to compare results across multiple editions of a test, or between years. If every test were completely unique, it would be harder to determine whether one edition was harder than another. Sure, you can look at the mean, but that assumes that student performance does not change from year to year. In fact, one of the best uses for standardized tests is to test the educational system itself by seeing if this is in fact the case.

Re:Never happened before

[Tenebrious1]

Microsoft revoked the certifications of a few people who ran those sites. Cisco sent warning letters as well. Those of us who used to post full dumps don't anymore, the risk of losing certifications is too high. When you take the exam, you agree to a NDA.

The mainstream study sites make up their own questions, which is no different from old school study guides. They can't use exact questions, and all the guides tell you they are not exact questions.

Seems silly -

[jpellino]

If the sharers are so savvy, they can no doubt move this info anywhere they want - why only cancel the local tests? Seems everyone who wants this stuff will have it in short order.

Unless the tests have regional forms in addition to the other multiple forms, this is either useless or a symbolic slap on the wrist.

Re:Seems silly -

[SquierStrat]

MAYBE (this is just an assumption) the method they chose involved the answered being shared in their native languages. I mean really, how many Americans can speak Chinese?

Re:Seems silly -

[Tom7]

My understanding is that the tests were cancelled everywhere. Is that wrong?

Re:Seems silly -

[blackwizard]

Let alone read it. You can't necessarily speak Chinese if you can read it, and vice versa... or any language that uses Kanji or Kanji-like characters, for that matter.

That said, the GRE is a general test. I think it was alluded to that non-native english speakers do worse because of the language barrier, thus have to take the subject-specific GRE exam. It would follow, then, that there would be more of a need for this in non english-speaking locales.

scores (alone) are used in 2 main ways

[Anonymous Coward]

First, scores may be used at the low end as a first sort method. People who score below a certain cut off might be eliminated from further consideration. This is often done to limit the number of applications that must be examined.

Second, scores may be used at the high end to get considered for fellowships and other academic awards.

Most schools do not use the scores alone, but consider the whole package. Still, scores and GPA are used most everywhere in the initial sorting of applicants. If you are on the admissions committee of a CS department, and there are 3 of you, and there are 300 applications for 20 spots, you are going to want to winnow the pile in *some* way.

Keep in mind that standardized test scores do an ok job of predicting success in school at the high end, but do a very poor job of predicting failure in school at the low end.

"Education is not preparation for life, education is life itself." John Dewey

Re:scores (alone) are used in 2 main ways

[will_die]

At lot also depends on the school.
At Georgia they took your GRE*2 + (your college GPA,in a 4.0 system,*100) and that had to be over a certain number.
Don't remember the exact number, just remember the first time I went in and took the GRE, without studying, and missed the number by 3 points.
Admissions still required I go take the test again.

Re:scores (alone) are used in 2 main ways

[pagansage]

First, scores may be used at the low end as a first sort method. People who score below a certain cut off might be eliminated from further consideration. This is often done to limit the number of applications that must be examined.

This is not always true. In fact, I would say that this is far from the truth when it comes to the GREs. Being in Grad schol myself at a large state school I have a friend whose research advisor happens to also be the graduate advisor for the largest department on campus. This department recieves MANY applications from Asia and the GRE scores are a joke. Almost all of the applicants have a 99% percentile on ALL three sections of the general exam. And yet when they come here they can barely speak english.

My friend was asked by her advisor which applicant she would pick out of the scores and she pointed to the individual with the low score. She said that he probably earned that score. Most schools know about the score inflation caused by Asia and take that into heavy consideration.

If your going to apply to graduate school, especially for the sciences, then GRE scores should be the last of your worries. The best thing you can do is take as many classes in your field as possible. Get involved in some type of research: REUs, ERULF, etc. And when you apply show that all you want to do is research, research, research. Make sure you pick out a field (doesn't matter what really) within your discipline and show that you have some interest and knowledge in that section.

Not a tragedy

[back_pages]

I am applying to grad school for Computer Science this spring, and it turns out that many schools only require the subject test (what this news it about) if you are an international student or if you did poorly on the general test and want to show that you have potential in your area.

I'm sure not all schools use this approach, but many do. Maybe we'll see fewer international students coming in this year. That will certainly be a loss, but like I said, I'm applying and I really don't mind a temporary loss of competition. ;)

Re:Not a tragedy

[corian]

like I said, I'm applying and I really don't mind a temporary loss of competition

That's a good point. Presumably, the people taking the test who sharing information are applying to graduate school themselves. I'd assume they'd also have a fairly good idea of how competitive the admissions process can be these days. How do they benefit by helping other random internet surfers improve their scores? Wouldn't that just dilute the value of the original taker's score in the applicant pool?

Sounds a bit like shooting ones self in the foot to me.

Re:Not a tragedy

[herwin]

There's a great deal of variation in how prepared students are for a graduate degree. For example, many UK computing graduates lack depth in data structures, language theory, languages other than VB, C, and Java, and a number of other subjects found in the ACM Model Curriculum. It's generally worse in second and third-world countries. The value of a GRE score is that it gives the department some way of assessing the real readiness of an unknown student. I agree that many programs require GREs for certain students only. I didn't need it for my second PhD course, but I was already an adjunct lecturer in the CS department.

Re:Not a tragedy

[ErikZ]

I thought CS focused on theory? Why would you need to know more than VB, C and Java when all you need is to confirm the theories and mathmatics you're working on?

You can always pick up another language after you've got the theory down.

Re:Not a tragedy

[Anonymous Coward]

The school I am going to only required the General subject test for the Masters. They require the subject test for the Ph.D program. Also, unless I misread, they are only canceling the test in China, etc.?

Re:Not a tragedy

[Darth_Burrito]

Read last Sunday's foxtrot. http://www.ucomics.com/foxtrot/2002/09/29/

Re:Not a tragedy

[ajaygautam]

I am also applying to Grad school... The plus of this is that I have to give one less test. Many universities (Princeton, Rutgers...) have relaxed their requirements of the subject test. YAY !!!

how the questions are made/scored

[luzrek]

First, I'ld like to point out that the ETS tests have relative scores, so you don't nessasarially need to get all questions correct to get a "perfect" score, just subtantially more right than 99.5% (a guess) of the people taking the test. So the people who were cheating on these tests really had an effect on the scores of the tallented people who didn't nessasarially have access to the answers.

Second, it takes a fairly large amount of time to figure out how difficult/fair questions are for these tests. That is what the experimental section of the exams are used for. They corrolate your actuall score with how you did on each question in an experimental section and via statistics then determine how difficult that question actually was. Because this process takes time (even after you have written the question), a question needs to have an apprecable lifetime for the tests to continue to be fair and the scores to remain comperable from one exam to the next. In these respects they are different than the questions on a licensing test (which should test your practical ablities anyway) since aptatude tests require relative scores which don't drift from year to year, and licensing exams should determine how quickly you can diagnose/fix a problem or create a solution for a particular challenge.

Re:how the questions are made/scored

[Profane Motherfucker]

Cite a fucking source for this, and you might sound convincing. Otherwise, it's just hearsay and rumor, like 99% of the 'facts' on Slashdot. Not that I have the smallest fucking problem, but I'd like to see some proof.

Re:how the questions are made/scored

[DChristensen]

I can't speak for ETS, but I work at a educational testing development environment. The process that test items go through at our center is similar to what the grandparent suggested. This process is called "equating", and great care is taken to ensure that different tests taken by various participants have roughly the same "weight".

For example, we have 4 forms of a standardized math test which contain different questions. Based on performance of previous testing, we are able to construct a statistical correlation between particular items, and essential create a weighted "final" equated score.

Equated scores are subtly different than base percent correct, so a "perfect" score could be had without having answered all questions correctly.

It is my impression that this is a widespread, pretty standard application of testing theory, not limited only to ETS,

Re:how the questions are made/scored

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry, you have neglected to mention a diety, or your maternal parent. Repeated violations of this offense may require you to change your moniker.

Re:how the questions are made/scored

[Anonymous Coward]

Look it up on the web. As another poster suggested, it's not exactly like the parent said, but it's pretty accurate without getting into technical jargon. Here's some keywords to look for:

Item response theory
Test equating
Item banking
Computerized adaptive tests
Test equivalence

Re:how the questions are made/scored

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, because if it's on the Internet, I *must* be true. Fuck that, look it up. The original poster has the responsibility of proving the point. Don't you know logic and rhetoric?

Re:how the questions are made/scored

[lpevey]

Just about any GRE review book or review course will tell you: a substantial portion of the questions you answer aren't actually scored. They're difficulty is being tested for future use.

It probably even says something similar at the GRE web site.

Aside from that, it's just common sense. Who needs a source? There's a basic difference between aptitude tests and proficiency tests.

And where is your source for the statistic of 99%? Have you actually done systematic research in the field of Slashdot bullshit? Didn't think so.

Re:how the questions are made/scored

[forgotmypassword]

I you read the material that comes with the GRE study guide that you get in the mail, then you would know this to be true. So for people that have taken the GRE, this is well known.

For example, today, because the math section is so stupidly easy you can often miss no questions in math and still only score a 96%, because many other people made perfect as well.

Also, in the general GRE, you are tested in 4 sections where one section is completely experimental. When I took the GRE I figured out that my first logic section was experimental because I am good at logic but later into the test (the questions get more difficult as you answer correctly) the problems became a mess of (like 12) variables with huge diagrams. I became frantic because I couldn't finish the section. But the second logic section that came up was as simple as those in the practice exams.

Re:how the questions are made/scored

[Profane Motherfucker]

99%? Well, that's just 'common sense.'

Re:how the questions are made/scored

[luzrek]

many sources for this information are avalable from the ETS at: http://www.gre.org/resdevelop.html#ValidationExten sion wheither or not you are inclined to believe them or not is your choice.

GRE?

[brunes69]

Could someone in the US please tell me what a "GRE" exam is? Do you have to take one of these there before going into Computer Science or something? I am about to graduate with my BCS and I have never heard of this thing.

Re:GRE?

[forsetti]

"Graduate Record Examinations"
Entrance exam to graduate school (for your Master's Degree).

Re:GRE?

[Anonymous Coward]

GRE stands for Graduate Record Exam. Its the graduate equivalent of the SAT (another test taken to get into university). The GRE is broken usually into 2 parts. A general exam similar to the SAT ( MCAT, GMAT, LSAT etc etc ) that is supposed to test general knowledge and aptitude. Then there is the course or area specific portion which tests your knowledge of the area of study to which you are applying. eg: Comp. Sci. specific.

These are very popular or fairly popular at least in the US

Re:GRE?

[t0rnt0pieces]

Could someone in the US please tell me what a "GRE" exam is?

The Graduate Record Exam is a standardized test administered by the non-profit (yeah, right) College Board (same people who do the SATs). It's usually a required test for anyone wishing to gain admittance to graduate school. In addition to the general test, which tests language skills, basic math, and analytical skills, they also offer a wide range of subject tests. Some schools just require the general, some require both the general and subject tests. The cost for the general test when I took it was a whopping $90 or so. It's a grueling test that will ruin your day. Takes about 3-4 hours. The best part is that it's on computer and you get your scores instantly.

Re:GRE?

[capt.Hij]

The GRE, General Ripoff Exams, is a test that many graduate programs require as part of their entrance applications. The subject exams are sometimes hijacked by specialists in certain areas of the relevant fields which means that only a small portion of people do well on them. For example, one year the biology exam might be overly weighted toward plant biology which means that all of the zoology students get screwed.

A lot of people ignore the subject exams and concentrate on the general exams which are a better indicator of a students aptitude (IMHO). The main reason to require the exams is tradition and laziness. This is why the testing service will be in business for a very long time.

Re:GRE?

[aallan]

...same people who do the SATs

Which of course leads us to the question, what is an SAT?

Al.

Re:GRE?

[will_die]

Scholastic Aptitude Test(SAT) is a test they give to paying, is probably around $100US now, high school students. It is used by college to determin admissions.
Most US colleges require that you have a certain SAT score and a high school diploma for admittance. The more well know of the place the higher score and the higher high school GPA they required.
As for the test itself, back when I took it, it was a full day 6-7 hour test. It included portions in math and reading comprehension. Each question had an option of 4 or 5 answers and you had to fill in the bubble for the correct answer. I guess now they have to actuall write a portion of the test.
If you check the net you can probably find some sample tests.

So overall they have a nice little racket going, where they get high school students going for a bachelor with the SAT and bachelors going for a masters with the GRE, and related ones.

Re:GRE?

[ChristTrekker]

You take it on computers now? Wimps. Give me a #2 pencils and lots of ovals to fill in.

Seriously, my wife helps administer ETS tests and I've never heard of one on computer. I even helped one day when I brought her there and they were short-handed. Maybe it's only on computer where available? Our testing center isn't outfitted for it.

Re:GRE?

[Drachemorder]

"Maybe it's only on computer where available? Our testing center isn't outfitted for it."

I believe that's correct. When I took the GRE (4 years ago), there was a lot of talk that it was going to be available on computer. They were just starting to roll out the computer-based testing, and it wasn't available at my location. It probably still isn't available at a lot of locations.

Re:GRE?

[Carnivore]

You take it on computers now?

Yup. The general GRE is only offered on computer now. It really sucks for people like my wife who developed excellent paper test taking skills. The computer test is completely linear in the sense that you can't skip around in the section. It's adaptive, so when you get one right, it gives you a harder one... It was a real pain in the ass.

Re:GRE?

[ChristTrekker]

How can you correlate test scores if one person is served up hard questions and another is served easy ones? I thought that was the point of standardized testing.

Re:GRE?

[parliboy]

I always thought it was to compensate, to provide an additional factor for weighing admissions. After all, a 4.0 GPA (or in my case, much lower) at Podunk U. really won't impress too many people without a measuring stick against other schools. The GRE gives us Podunkers a chance to demonstrate that our abilities can be on par with those at the uppercrust schools.

For me, standardized testing has been a Godsend, because I always perform at a much higher level on them (app. 2.5 GPA HS, but 30 ACT) and I receive opportunities (and unfortunately, expectations) that I wouldn't otherwise.

Re:GRE?

[Anonymous Coward]

> Which of course leads us to the question, what is an[sic] SAT?

A Google search keyword. Works for "GRE", too.

Re:GRE?

[Anonymous Coward]

I will do far better - I will point you to the tome of all knowledge so you can find out for yourself ...

Re:GRE?

[Anonymous Coward]

When you get questions right, the test will throw up harder questions, when you get questions wrong, it'll throw up easier ones.

When I took it, it appeared that the test taking software was running off of Windows 3.1, or some 16-bit version of Windows anyway (it would've been cheaper to use Linux).

Re:GRE?

[terrymr]

Saturday Afternoon Test :-)

Re:GRE?

[Anonymous Coward]

The 'an' is proper in that context if you pronounce it 'S-A-T', as 'S' is pronounced 'ess'.

So it would sound like "what is an ess eh tee?"

Re:GRE?

[GuyMannDude]

It's a grueling test that will ruin your day. Takes about 3-4 hours. The best part is that it's on computer and you get your scores instantly.

That way it can ruin your night as well...

GMD

Re: Ethically Challenged

[Anonymous Coward]

Comp Sci, Business, I've seen a preponderance of cheaters in these fields--hmm.

I've never understood...

[cperciva]

... the point of GREs. Undergraduate entrance exams make sense; they verify that you have the prerequisite knowledge to take (pretty standard) undergraduate courses.

At the graduate level, however, you're supposed to be doing research. How do you define what knowledge is prerequisite for doing research in computer science? You can't -- all you can do is interview the students, get a feel for what sort of projects they are interested in, and decide if those projects sound as though they would be worth a degree.

Maybe things are different in the US of A, but I don't think I would personally want to study at any institution which would admit me on the basis of how well I did on an exam.

Re:I've never understood...

[rknop]

At the graduate level, however, you're supposed to be doing research. How do you define what knowledge is prerequisite for doing research in computer science? You can't -- all you can do is interview the students, get a feel for what sort of projects they are interested in, and decide if those projects sound as though they would be worth a degree.

Things probably are different in the USA. I should disclaim that I'm in Physics&Astronomy, rather than Computer Science, but I suspect many of the same things apply.

A student who goes to grad school knows that he wants to get into research, and, yes, that's what grad school is all about. However, it's the rare student who really knows exactly what he wants to do when he goes to grad school. Many will have some idea as to what field they want to go into-- e.g., in Physics, they may know if they're interested in astro, nuclear, particle, condensed matter, or something else-- and a few students will know what profoessor or project they want to work with, but it's the rare student that knows beyond that.

Part of the purpose of grad school is so that students can learn, in an apprenticeship sort of mode, how to go about doing research. As such, judging them on the ideas for projects they have isn't really fair. Yes, it would increase the quality of grad students, as only the very top ones would ever get in. However, undergraduate education does very little to prepare students for that sort of thing, as that is part of the purpose of graduate education.

On to the GRE's. In Physics, there *is* a core set of knowledge that "any" Physics graduate student ought to have. Indeed, most schools have core courses (or core exams) which the students must take beyond that, to get the basics of the field, before they can be admitted to candidacy (at which point, yes, it is based partly on their presentation of what they will do for their research, and thereafter mostly all they are doing is working on their research). This admission to candidacy will typically come after the student's second year of graduate school. The GRE's give some vague indication (up to the general utility of standardized test, which is a whole different debate) of how well prepared a student is to survive those first two years of graduate classes.

-Rob

Re:I've never understood...

[Anonymous Coward]

For arts students, the GRE is to test the students' political beliefs and ensure that only proper socialists make it through to graduate studies.

Re:I've never understood...

[paranoic]

At the graduate school I went to (SUNY at Stony Brook), they didn't care about your GRE in their subject, becuase they could teach you that. They cared about the Math and English, because they didn't want to teach you that.

Re:I've never understood...

[herwin]

It has been 34 years since I took the GRE in math, but the system hasn't changed that much. American graduate programs include several years of coursework prior to doing research (resulting in added years to the research degree, but also better preparation), and the GREs serve much the same function as the SATs--to provide a third party assessment of the readiness of the student for (graduate) coursework.

Re:I've never understood...

[Anonymous Coward]

In that case, you will not be attending grad school in the U.S. Entrance exams are required for every school (university) in every degree, including Engineering, Law, business, etc.

Re:I've never understood...

[Anonymous Coward]

My understanding is that the Computer Science GRE subject test is being required less and less by schools now. I applied to three graduate schools last year and, luckily, none of them required the subject GRE.

I think the schools realize that the GRE doesn't seem to indicate much about research potential.

Re:I've never understood...

[astroboy]

The GRE -- or a standardized test in general -- is a useful tool. It gives you a few very broad results for lots of people in a way that's known to be uniformly assessed, at the expense of a certain arbitrariness.

With personal interviews, you get a lot more discretion in the interviewing, and you can get a lot more depth of information, so things are a little less arbitrary -- but then you get the biases of the interviewers; someone who one interviewer might think is brilliant, another might dismiss as a hack. So you get deeper, more nuanced information, but less uniform and differently arbitrary.

Don't forget that in the US, most students coming into Ph.D. programs are coming straight out of undergraduate, so there is a real question of making sure everyone has the same background, and the students aren't launched immediately into research the way they might be in a system where you do a Master's first. Also, in a field like CS, you have people coming in from Math, CS, Physics, or Engineering background, so a `level laying field'-test is a useful tool.

The GRE provides four numbers -- a score on a subject test, and scores on three general tests -- logic problems, basic mathematics, and english skills. All of those can be useful pieces of information -- a bright person who can't read or write is unlikely to be a good TA or, for that matter, work well in groups where reports need to be written often. A person who knows tonnes about their subject but can't solve simple logic problems is unlikely to be a really creative researcher, etc.

When you have 500 people applying to your department, and you can only accept 20 or so students, you need a quick way of pruning the list to 50-100 or so, who you can then start looking at in more detail. For that, you need a broad, uniform measure, which is exactly what the GRE provides.

I don't know any department that bases its acceptances solely on the basis of the highest GRE scores, and those who did probably deserve the students they get. (A Yale and Cornell study found that GRE scores corellated well with the students coursework grades, but poorly with overall sucess as a grad student). But it is a useful piece of information, and helps sorting through huge pools of applicants. Like any standardized test, the problems come when people take the tests too seriously, usually by assuming that the tests measure something that the test doesn't even claim to test for.

Re:I've never understood...

[ErikZ]

The GRE's main use is to get rid of the people who want to stay in college forever.

Re:I've never understood...

[Anonymous Coward]

A colleague of mine recently published a large meta-analysis of studies relating the GRE to future performance (I wish I could give you a better link but you'll have to go to a journal index for that). Basically, he meta-analyzed over 1500 studies on the GRE's predictive validity, and found that it was predictive of all sorts of stuff, including research productivity.

Ironically, if I recall correctly, the GRE subtest tests that best predict performance are those typically overlooked by graduate admissions committees--the subject tests and the analytic subtest. The subject tests seemed to do particularly well.

Of course, the GRE shouldn't be used alone to admit a graduate student, but it is very valuable.

The argument that standardized tests shouldn't be used to classify people or predict their behavior is a very old one, and found in all fields, whether it be personnel selection, education, or mental health. Time and time again, as Nathan found in his meta-analysis, these criticisms are usually not borne out by the data. Standardized tests are predictive of many things, and often--but by not means not always--are predictive of things that you might not expect just looking at test content.

Again, I agree with you--as many variables need to be taken into consideration as possible when predicting anyone's behavior in any domain, including graduate school. But tests are a particularly useful tool that shouldn't be overlooked, whether we like it or not.

Re:I've never understood...

[poot_rootbeer]

a bright person who can't read or write is unlikely to be a good TA

And yet, I've had several TA's like that, and I'm sure I'm not alone here...

Re:I've never understood...

[Anonymous Coward]

in a way that's known to be uniformly assessed

hmm, really don't know much about assessment theory, do you? even the ETS doesn't kid themselves that the results are uniform.

Re:I've never understood...

[Lish]

The idea is to have a uniform way of comparing students from different schools. Any two schools have different curricula, different grading standards, etc. so a standardized test allows the graduate program to determine if your background includes proficiency in the areas they expect. Very few schools, if any, admit solely (or even primarily) on the basis of exam score; much more weight is given, for example, to your personal statement where you describe your research interests. The test score just gives them another way of judging if you're sufficiently prepared to succeed in their graduate program.

Re:I've never understood...

[tommck]

At the graduate level, however, you're supposed to be doing research.

I disagree.

Some graduate school students are there for research. Of the people I know, I would put that percentage at about 25%. You have to narrow your scope of a statement like this.

I live in Baltimore, MD. Here, we have many colleges. Johns Hopkins, for instance, has two tracts for MS in CS. One is a research-oriented, going-on-to-get-my-doctorate type degree. The other is a basic Computer Science degree targetted towards non-CS people (somewhat similar to a BS in CS).

I don't think that many people go for a MS in CS these days (except those that are afraid of the job market and are looking for a respectable way to keep busy for another year or two...).

T

Re:I've never understood...

[RobinH]

A student who goes to grad school knows that he wants to get into research, and, yes, that's what grad school is all about.

This is not always true. For instance, my wife is studying to be a Clinical Psychologist, and to become a practicing Psychologist, you need to have your Ph.D. (though sometimes a Master's will work too). While it's true that you have to do research to get your Ph.D., a "Clinical Psychology" program exists to train Clinical Psychologists. "Clinical" specifically means you work with people to help them, not to do research.

That said, my wife did have to take the GRE as part of the application process.

GRE general vs. subject tests

[Jackal4Eva]

I completed an MS in computer science and the schools I applied to preferred I take the general GRE as opposed to the subject specific test because its a better overall measure of a candidate... How many of you had to specifcally take a subject test?

Yeah

[Konster]

Cheating in the East is an accepted method of scholastic advancement. Hell, it's an accepted method of superficial scholastic advancement within most circles, provided your parents have the financial wherewithal to fund such personal extravagances.

To think that GRE exams are being salted by massive P2P software is a bit misleading. The abusers of the system have been abusing systems for thousands of years; to think that this is a new phenomenon is foolish. That they would use P2P programs is to be expected, and that they would hide behind lies and grand mistruths is to be anticipated.

Ban them from the universities and kick them out of the country. If they are not in the country, ban then from ever entering.

Re:Yeah

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, it's almost sounds like you're saying something important here, but you're not. Almost fooled me!

Re:Yeah

[Anonymous Coward]

This is NOT a troll! He is correct! MOD PARENT UP!

so this means the testing problem is fixable?

[f00zbll]

"If we continue to offer this test in these countries where our investigation has revealed students immediately post test questions on the Internet, it will threaten the usefulness of the test both for U.S. graduate admission officers and students worldwide," said Carole Beere, chair of the GRE Board.

Even before students started sharing test questions on the internet, standardized tests only test memorization. It does is terrible job of measuring intelligence and critical analysis. Why in the world people believe SAT and GRE are useful is beyond me. Sure the system has been that way for a long time and everyone knows it's broken, but no one is willing to fix it. People with money to send their kids to test prep schools are the ones who benefit from standardized tests.

Not that anyone cares, but standardized tests were originally created to level the playing field for college admission. I forget who created it (saw a special on discovery), but the original intent was to make it so a smart poor kid could get into college. In practice, that is far from reality. Most of the kids who score well on standardized tests get the results because of test prep schools. People who are brilliant don't count, since they don't need to study in the first place. Children of those who make less than 50K have a harder time, since they can't afford it. I fail to see how paying for a test prep school, which use old tests for practice is different from kids posting the questions for free. Well, except that it negates the need to pay 2K for GRE prep class.

Re:so this means the testing problem is fixable?

[Nate Eldredge]

Not to defend standardized tests, but memorization is certainly not all they test. Have you looked at the General GRE? The Analytic section in particular is mostly logic puzzles, for which memorization would do you no good. And as far as verbal, memorizing lists of words might help, but I don't think it can substitute for simply having a large vocabulary.

Also, you said:

I fail to see how paying for a test prep school, which use old tests for practice is different from kids posting the questions for free.

The difference is that test prep schools use old tests which ETS has officially released. The questions on those tests have (presumably) been phased out, so they won't just give away the answers to questions on the real test. On the other hand, when students distribute questions from tests that are still in use, that is undeniably cheating.

CS Students from Abroad Should Be Curtailed

[BlueRain]

And domestic kids should be given a shot.

Sorry. After being rejected from a whole slew of grad schools for CS, this is just the way I feel.

Select honest people (albeit with lower grades.)

Re:CS Students from Abroad Should Be Curtailed

[xsbellx]

With a comment like that it is not suprising you were rejected.

Your comment leads to two possible explanations.

1) The system is flawed and is rejecting "good ol boys" out of hand simply because they are "good ol boys". Great attitude, I am sure wollowing in self pity will go a long way to you getting into grad school and even further once you leave academia and enter the "commercial" world.

2) You are not capable enough to continue in this area. Life sucks don't it.

Re:CS Students from Abroad Should Be Curtailed

[Durrik]

While I generally agree that its not a good additude to take, there is some basis for it. At least in Canada where the local students pay a lot less then the foreign students because the local students pay taxes.
With government cutbacks the universities get less money then they use to for local students, but the money payed by foreign students is money in the bank, they get all of it.
When I took Computer Science, there were maybe 5-10% local students, the rest were all from China, and it was a real pain to work on group projects with them, because their english was terrible and my chinese was worse.
So there is some resentment from the local students who have to compete with the foreign students, and see that the foreign students get precidence because the Universities get more money for them. And since they come from father away they get preference on dorm rooms forcing the local students to either commute hellishly long distances, or live in hellishly priced housing, which can be up to 10 times the amount for housing on campus. For the first few weeks when I was in university I was at the YMCA till someone dropped out of residence.
Like almost everything in the world, it comes down to money, and if a university can get more money from tuition from a foreign student then they will take a foreign student over a local one.

Re:CS Students from Abroad Should Be Curtailed

[GT_Alias]

I agree that the attitude of "foreign students should be curtailed" can be narrow-minded and dangerous, but there is a certain degree of merit to the idea that the USA should support its own.

This is under the assumption that America has qualified students who have the potential to succeed and make significant contributions to the CS field. If there are foreign students who are more qualified, then we're dumbing down our own nation by refusing them for less qualified local students.

I just feel that as we import more students, educate them, and then subsequently export them back to their country we have just devalued our own country a little bit more by shifting knowledge and skills to foreign lands.

Re:CS Students from Abroad Should Be Curtailed

[Gaurang]

This is under the assumption that America has qualified students who have the potential to succeed and make significant contributions to the CS field. If there are foreign students who are more qualified, then we're dumbing down our own nation by refusing them for less qualified local students.

I am a foreigner studying in US CS Grad School right now. I must say that it is more correct to take the _best_ students from whichever country they are, since they will add value to the department by doing better quality research, and also enhance the classroom experience. And the US Schools, in fact, really do that today - they take the best students.

I just feel that as we import more students, educate them, and then subsequently export them back to their country we have just devalued our own country a little bit more by shifting knowledge and skills to foreign lands.

Thats clearly happening. Lots of skills, knowledge, and technology is being transferred from the US to outside. But for a developing country like from where I am, this is important and very useful, and helps our country develop. Even otherwise, its good for society, since all countries should develop equally, right?

Also, many times, the foreign students do not go back to their country, so the USA benefits by having a high-skilled person added to the community...

So the present situation turns out to be beneficial for the US as well as other countries.

Re:CS Students from Abroad Should Be Curtailed

[davechen]

In my experience (I was born here, my parents are from Taiwan), Americans are just not as interested in graduate school. Asians seem to value higher degrees (especially Ph.D.'s) much more than Americans.

To be honest, unless you're interested in academia and research, there isn't much reason to get a CS Ph.D. From a job/financial standpoint, you might as well start working straight from college.

Heck, when I was in college it seemed like a lot of the CS majors were just there for the job prospects. Those aren't the type of people who go to grad school. You have to have a real passion for the subject to want to slog through N years of grad school. Or you have to really want the letters after your name. Otherwise it ain't worth it.

Re:CS Students from Abroad Should Be Curtailed

[Anonymous Coward]

In SUNY the foreign students even get out-of-state tuition waived. NY residents who pay lower tuition end up getting effectively less money from the school. They should cap a tuition waiver at the in-state tuition. People from New Jersey (and India or China) will pay more, but thems the breaks.

Re:CS Students from Abroad Should Be Curtailed

[Elwood P Dowd]

"Select honest people" is a great mandate.

You might feel that would mean curtailing intake of foreign grad students. You'll have to explain that position very very well. The two statements are completely unrelated.

You'll also have to explain why US universities should be beholden to US citizens. US universities should work to become the best universities that they can.

After you show that, you'll have to prove that admitting fantastic foreign students does not improve the quality of education for the American students.

Re:CS Students from Abroad Should Be Curtailed

[smithmc]

So "domestic" == "honest", and "foreign" == "dishonest"? What, do you work for the Bush Administration or something?

Re:CS Students from Abroad Should Be Curtailed

[donutello]

I'm shocked that such a blatantly racist statement can get modded up on this board.

I'm sorry you were rejected from a whole slew of grad schools. I'm sorry your abilities, your knowledge and your intelligence were deemed inferior to a whole bunch of people inspite of the natural advantage you held as far as the language and accessibility of technology is concerned.

I'm sorry, universities are not run as a charity system. Most scholarships are paid for by industrial sponsors who want to see research results from their money.

I went to grad school at a top-10 school for CS. There is a whole slew of scholarships and opportunities that are available for US citizens and residents which are just not there for foreign students. As a result, many US students were admitted over much better international students. The few foreign students that were there were the cream of the class - and outdid most of the local students in terms of what they achieved for their professors and for the prestige of the university.

Re:CS Students from Abroad Should Be Curtailed

[John Whitley]

While I can't speak to the original posters admission problems, there are *serious* problems within many graduate programs that are pretty much in-line with the poster's gripes. To wit: many departments (and not just in CS) have in circles of foreign students who keep test libraries and who coach students in their sub-community not to learn the material but to just pass the tests. A similar pheomenon is observed at the undergrad level, but usually driven by greek organizations, in my experience. In many cases, faculty are either oblivious to the problem or don't have the time or teaching skill to "immunize" their evaluation metholodogy against this sort of attack.

Short form: honest and hardworking students get screwed in their grades, while know-nothing slackers sail on by... Personally, I don't care if the system allows some slackers -- some will squeak through. I am bothered when they mass in such numbers that the real talent is trampled underfoot.

Re:CS Students from Abroad Should Be Curtailed

[elflord]

You'll also have to explain why US universities should be beholden to US citizens. US universities should work to become the best universities that they can.

I agree with most of your points, but this one is pretty simple. In the case of private universities, the answer is that they shouldn't. In the case of government funded universities, they should serve the interests of the citizens that government represents and acquires those funds from.

Re:CS Students from Abroad Should Be Curtailed

[Anonymous Coward]

"since all countries should develop equally, right?"

Wrong. Is the US supposed to develop more slowly, or stop developing at all, just so other countries can catch up? A communist would say yes. The USA has a capitalist market, which means that you make your own breaks. Try to keep in mind the phrase "by the people, for the people". It is not beneficial for the US to weaken itself, because that's not the government I pay for. If a country really wants the USA's aid in developing, then they should become a colony. If you want things that are good for society, you should go back in time to communist Russia.

"it is more correct to take the _best_ students from whichever country they are"

It's not more correct, it's the only correct way of doing it. That way, each person earns their way, instead of having the commune hand things to them, but that's never what all these things have been about. The only purpose standardised testing serves is to catch students who are smart enough, but don't have the means, to go as far as they are able. If this were a commune, then there'd be no foreign students, because they'd be taking up places that could've been filled by people inside the commune, and the commune would suffer. So, no, all countries should not develop equally, they should develop themselves, at whatever pace they want, and not rely on the US or any other country.

Re:CS Students from Abroad Should Be Curtailed

[crgrace]

Hey, is this the Dave Chen who went to College Park High School? If so send me an email to carl_r_grace@yahoo.com!

Re:CS Students from Abroad Should Be Curtailed

[davechen]

Sorry, but that ain't me. Take one of the most common Western first names and one of the most common Chinese last names, and you end up with a whole lotta Dave Chen's.

Re:CS Students from Abroad Should Be Curtailed

[Anonymous Coward]

>I'm shocked that such a blatantly
>racist statement can get modded up on this board.

Woooah! Hold on, cowboy. There's nothing that guy posted that is "racist". Xenophobic, yes. But "racist" is a perjorative of a different color.

Re:CS Students from Abroad Should Be Curtailed

[forgotmypassword]

And this is, in fact, how things work. It costs public universities much more money to educate a foreigner, because the state may not help. Therefore the schools pick only a few, very talented foreigners out of the hundreds of foreign applications. It is a problem of constraints, money versus quality and quantity.

The universities know how much money they have to work with. They know how much an American student will cost them. They know how much a foreign student will cost them (much more). They know the merit of the applicants. The only thing they don't know is the acceptance percentage and the attrition rate. Therefore they do some statistical guess work in giving out acceptances.

Re:CS Students from Abroad Should Be Curtailed

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, not just to cause a fight, but if we're talking about fairness, then we should start setting quotas on rich people (or do away with expensive classes for these standard college exams).

It always seemed unfair that kids from wealthy families could take an expensive class to boost their scores (in some cases dramatically), whereas these sorts of classes were simply not within my family's financial reach. OK, it didn't affect me personally -- I was poor but the SATs and the GRE were both a joke as far as I was concerned (in fact, the generic GRE I had to take to get into grad school didn't even cover calculus).

So, a group of GRE warez distributors got caught in Asia -- does this then simply level the playing field for the wealthy domestic people?

In the end, a more worthwhile question would be how meaningful these tests are anyways. Like I said, I rocked them both, but I'm not naive enough to assume this is indicative, in any meaninful way, of my overall engineering prowess. I've always been a good test taker, that's all. But, GRE warez, that's the best test-taking strategy I've heard of so far!

Just imagine the money Kaplan could make if they could find a way of providing this 'service' to it's upper class clientele!

Re:CS Students from Abroad Should Be Curtailed

[BlueRain]

I'm glad to see the amount of discussion my comment has elicited. And for the most part, I think your responses are even-handed and intelligent. And I will defend your right to the first amendment to the death.

Granted, there are alot of talented kids in the world. However, in a time when domestic concerns are paramount, perhaps it is in the US' best interest to educate it's own, that's all. I am guessing from my own experience that it doesn't, but from responses in this board, perhaps it does (thru industrial scholarships to US Citizens) and on that scale I'm mediocre.

And the point that not admitting gifted students to a university hurts knowledge itself is an excellent point.

I just don't want hackers from abroad using the great skills that my country taught them screwing up my life. After all, I mean, I think I have a right as a US citizen to desire that foreign nationals not use the freedom and generosity of my country against me. After September 11th, is that too much to ask?

Re:CS Students from Abroad Should Be Curtailed

[Anonymous Coward]

When I worked at Hewlett Packard, we had higher managers that would offer folks budget for projects on condition that they only hire H1-B workers from India. You can censor or downrate this comment-but this really happened.

The massive importation of foreign students is a scam that subsidizes corporate elites in the US(basically taking a public resource-citizenship-and using to for corporate purposes). Right now, there is really very little incentive for folks facing all the educational costs in the US to invest in education. The sad fact is that if an educational starts to pay off-the whores in congress will just take corporate money and ramp up immigration in that area one way or another.

Re:CS Students from Abroad Should Be Curtailed

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry, universities are not run as a charity system. Most scholarships are paid for by industrial sponsors who want to see research results from their money.

A lot of educational and research funding is tax supported-or indirectly subsidized via tax breaks. As a citizen, I want value for my money. Frankly, the massive importation of foreign students has been a de-facto immigration
program aimed and promoting corporate interests.
If corporations want immigration rights they should pay for them.

The few foreign students that were there were the cream of the class - and outdid most of the local students in terms of what they achieved for their professors and for the prestige of the university.

What I am personally concerned about is the educational acheivement in my community. I can see how having access to work in the US benefits immigrants and corporate interests operating in the US. I fail to see how it has benefited the folks that were already here.

Frankly, it seems that since the massive importation of foreign students has drive US folks out of key technical positions. Schools have become more geared towards foreign students and less sensitive to the needs of US students. Someone shouldn't have to feel like a stranger in their own country to get and education.

I wonder

[Megumi_Slashbot]

who got the first post of exam questions?

*SUNGLASSES EMOTE*

AP Tests anyone?

[PaddyM]

In my AP English class, it sure seemed like we took a different AP English test every week to prepare. That class was pretty annoying, but I got a 5. That teacher knew how to get people to get 5's on those tests.

Re:AP Tests anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Too bad in all your bullshit bragging, you didn't think how important it is to spell correctly. www.hypocracy.org? What kind of fucking word is that? You do know that you cannot spell shit like it sounds? Did U no that? Wer u taut that in skool? It's hypocrisy is the word you want, mr fucking 5 on my ap.

Today is October 1st

[Anonymous Coward]

This fucking article is from August 26th.

Slashdot must be using the term "news" rather loosely these days.

Oh my God!!!

[buzy buzy]

Next think you know..

programmers will be sharing code

Smacks of communism to me :-)

Re:Oh my God!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

What's next? People sharing music?!?! videos?!?! books?!?! The world is going to hell in a handbasket!

The person responsible

[Alsee]

Considering it's a Computer Science exam, I propose that whoever hacked in to get the questions in the first place should get an automatic 100.

P.S.
Yes, I read the article. I took comedic licence with the facts. (I didn't like them, so I ignored them.)

-

Re:The person responsible

[Daniel]

Actually, I think that's an excellent idea. Give 'em all 100 :)

Daniel

(note to people not familiar with the GRE: a perfect score on a given section is 800)

Re:The person responsible

[Anonymous Coward]

...but a 100 on the GRE is shit.

Re:The person responsible

[Nate Eldredge]

That's only for the General GRE. The Subject tests (such as this one) go up to 990. But I believe in both cases the minimum score is 200 (don't ask me why), so 100 would be exceptionally poor.

Re:The person responsible

[donutello]

The maximum score in the Computer Science subject test is 890.

I know, I got it.

Height of naivete(sp?)

[Quixote]

According to the ETS, significant numbers of questions from the GRE Computer Science Subject Test have been illegally revealed to test takers in recent months despite students signing an agreement they would not share questions from the test.

It is extremely naive to assume that students will keep their mouths shut after taking an exam. Of course they'll talk, discuss solutions and see how well they did compared to others.

I took the CS "AGRE" (as it was called then) in the 80s, and after we came out of the exam, we were discussing the questions and were able to reconstruct the entire exam (including the multiple choices) in a manner of minutes. An astute listener who was scheduled to take the exam months later could easily have obtained the list of 80 questions that we had. Of course, not all of them would have been repeated; but some might have.

Re:Height of naivete(sp?)

[gpinzone]

You think they might have done this? I'm positive of it. I'll bet there's a concerted effort to cull these questions and answers and proliferate them to whatever group the students are associated with.

When I was an undergrad, I found that many cliques of students had access to past exams, answer keys, teacher's manuals, etc.

Pissed me off till no end that these bastards had an unfair advantage over me.

Re:Height of naivete(sp?)

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with this full heartedly. Fortunately some of the teachers, particularly in the Science department wized up to this and started making their past tests available for checkout from the library.

What really pissed me off was Habi and the rest of the 50 cousin all in the same degree doing this.... during tests. The honor system cumbling at it's worse. These people should have been brought before the honor commity and expelled

I do not wish to be racist; however, it's hard at the school for two reason.

1: A friend was a Teacher Assisant for a semester. He had proof through tests that 6 people cheated in this one class. Not surprising from past experience 5 of the student's last name was Patell

2: The short burst of Arabic during tests

For those of you wondering where this is, it's the Arabic capital of the US...

Dearborn Michigan... you have two college side by side to guess which one, but from what I've heard of the other you'd be right with either choice.

Re:Height of naivete(sp?)

[Anonymous Coward]

Patel is Indian...not Arabic, you dumbass.

What a Racket

[N8F8]

I'm sure it all started harmless enough. Need to test the aptitude of incomming students. Devise test. Make the test a prerequisite to apply for admittance. Next thing you know an entire industry forms to meet the demand. Prep tests, gouge sheets, seminars, etc.

What a phenominal load of crap. Lazy admissions departments would just rather plug numbers into a computer than actually learn about potential students. Standardized testing is a self-fulfilling prophesy - skim off the top ten percent for the top ten percent of schools. Of course its gonna look like a success. But then again, a hundred years ago it was all about advancing the knowledge of humanity. Now it's just a hole in a punchcard. What a horrible waste of resources. To think, there is probable some kid out there willing to work his ass off to push the knowledge envelope, but he'll never get the chance because Podunk Community College doesn't have decent research facilities and Ivy University won't even look at somone without a high score on the monkey test.

Re:What a Racket

[Anonymous Coward]

What a horrible waste of resources. To think, there is probable some kid out there willing to work his ass off to push the knowledge envelope, but he'll never get the chance because Podunk Community College doesn't have decent research facilities and Ivy University won't even look at somone without a high score on the monkey test

You have no idea what you're ranting about. Simply put, it just doesn't work like that. The tests are helpful in the case where the applicant is from a relatively unknown school (that is, in the absence of other useful information), but they are not used as THE primary means of admission. I was accepted to the Ph.D. program in math at UT Austin without any GRE score, and later at Duke with a general GRE only (which I took cold without preparation)

HTH,

Re:What a Racket

[dvdeug]

Lazy admissions departments would just rather plug numbers into a computer than actually learn about potential students.

Give them a way to do so, and they might. But even if you drag student the thousands of miles it would take many of them to reach you for an interview, how much does that really tell you? Test numbers are somewhat reliable ways to pull the best students out of the mix.

skim off the top ten percent for the top ten percent of schools [...] Podunk Community College doesn't have decent research facilities

Right. I went to Podunk High School and scored very well on the SAT. I've taken a look at the GRE study guides - looks like the exact same type of test. You don't need research facilities; you need a brain. And Podunk Community has a library and Podunk State (right across the street) certainly does.

But then again, a hundred years ago it was all about advancing the knowledge of humanity.

A hundred years ago? "Hey, we got mail from Podunk!" "You mean that place that just became a state? I hear they actually let women vote. Barbarians." "They sent an application. Some miner who probably can't speak a word of Latin thinks he can join Ivy. What arrogance." And the application got trashed.

Re:What a Racket

[XtAt]

I couldn't agree more. I've been in the system for years and I've seen many bright people become discouraged with the game and give up. Thank god for MIT's OCW.

Limited number of Questions

[Snowbeam]

Wait, this is the GRE, right? From the sounds of this, you woul dthink they only had a limited number of questions (say 100) in their pool and that they keep reusing the same questions. Doesn't that sound a little stupid? There must be a better reason for cancelling the GRE's at this point. Maybe there aren't enough students applying to get into Grad school for Computer Science. If they have run out of Questions, there are more than enough Computer Science Professors and Graduates to gather a pool of new questions from.

Nature of CompSci exams should be changed

[ites]

Presenting candidates with written questions makes for a poor exam.
It is a cheap way to test people's skills and it fails in an age where information cannot be locked up.
In CompSci, particularly, there are much better ways to test a candidate: the practical application of the theory being taught.
This can be made cheat-proof simply by requiring that work be done over a period of time, and logged in (e.g.) a CVS archive.
The educational establishment should judge and score performance over this period of time.

Re:Nature of CompSci exams should be changed

[Anonymous Coward]

CS test is about theory. It is a science afterall. Sad it is too easy, though

Re:Nature of CompSci exams should be changed

[monadicIO]

I'm not sure that practical application of the theory is a good measure. A large body of CS is very theoretical in nature. Many of my friends in grad school do very mathematical stuff, which I don't think can really be applied to everyday programming. Systems and graphics are not the whole and sole of CS research. (Most of my friends do theory and wouldn't know CVS anyway!)

Re:Nature of CompSci exams should be changed

[ites]

Science is not just theoretical.
The true meaning of science only emerges when you get your hands dirty,
and for Computer Science this means doing hands-on work until your brain hurts.
Becoming good in anything requires long, tedious repetition combined with a forced raising of the level of abstraction.
Focussing on theory simply does not achieve this, and leaves graduates with an understanding but no feeling for their subject.
Imagine learning music by studying all about harmony, sound waves, and instrument fabrication, but never touching an instrument. Useless!!

Proposal for Exam Reform

[ites]

A Modest Proposal...
A school should be allowed to charge a tax on their graduate's future earnings.
Say 5% of gross income for first 5 years of employment.
This would stimulate schools to teach subjects that were actually useful,
and to select students that were really skilled.

Re:Proposal for Exam Reform

[WillyElectrix]

A common misperception is that colleges exist to provide job training. While this might be true for majors such as nursing and architecture, it's not necessarily true for CS. A CS undergrad major might find himself or herself in the school of engineering, liberal arts or even business school, and each has a different set of requirements. The one thing that is important for any CS major is a good math background.

Re:Proposal for Exam Reform

[ites]

"Good math background"?
The one subject I disliked most in my CompSci course was applied maths.
This has not stopped me from making a good career from it.
If education is not meant to provide training for a professional life (more than just a 'job', granted), what is it for?
Teaching people subjects that are vaguely aimed in some possibly useful direction is a waste.
Colleges should teach you enough short-term skills to get started in a real paying job,
and enough deep understanding to keep current over 30 years.

Re:Proposal for Exam Reform

[Kwikymart]

Computing Science is applied math.

Very few people can make a career from Computing Science. I suspect you are a programmer with a CS education, though. The point of a university education, in general, is not to prepare people for jobs. The purpose of it is to educate people, to teach them to think for themselves, and advance the human race. Even though most people that go into university never go onto graduate work / research or make any significant contribution, having informed and intelligent people in the world is a good thing.

Take a look at it this way: if the sole purpose of university was to get you a good job afterward, arts majors would get good jobs too. The truth is that arts majors go to work at McDicks when they graduate. Computing Science is one of those rare fields that most of the theory is directly applicable to creating marketable products. That is not to say that CS isn't actually something that is worth being in a university rather than a college (colleges & universities are different here in Canada). Computing Science has a lot more to it than programming. Too bad you wasted your education.

Re:Proposal for Exam Reform

[ites]

:) No, I don't think I wasted my education. But perhaps IHBT.

If the sole purpose of university was to get you a good job afterward, arts majors would get good jobs too.

This would be true if universities succeeded in their purpose. Most do not. Setting exams that are easy to cheat is just one example of failure.
Human society is complex enough to warrant specialists in all fields, arts or science. Education is not supposed to be a holiday: someone always pays, either the student or the taxpayer. Arts majors going to McDos is a failure of the system.
Lastly, 'applied math' is a meaningless definition of any subject. Cooking is applied math. So is driving a car. So are all sciences. Computer Science is about understanding and developing the science of information. And maths is only part of this. Psychology is almost as important. People who forget this become disconnected from the real world. Programming is not some minor aspect of this. It is the medium of expression. It is the only way you can demonstrate and test the science in the real world.

Yes, you can learn a lot about programming without doing CompSci, the reverse does not make sense.

Re:Proposal for Exam Reform

[Kwikymart]

This would be true if universities succeeded in their purpose.

Well, I think there purpose is exactly what we're trying to find out. We aren't arguing the same thing now. I contend that arts majors getting shitty jobs is irrelevant since they are still educated people... that being the reason they go to university.

Setting exams that are easy to cheat is just one example of failure.

I think that is the symptom of our problem. Universities are overrun by people who go their to get good jobs afterward. Maybe that changes the definition of a university, maybe it doesn't. The conceptual model of a university has existed before the industrial revolution. Long before that, people didn't go to university to get a job afterward. I think this still holds true, even though that model is taking a beating. Now, a higher education is very important because of our competativeness with knowledge. But the fact that people cheat, and they do, shows that those people don't go for the education, but for the peice of paper that comes after. This peice of paper, as they see it, entitles them to a job. If people were going there to be educated, then they wouldn't cheat because there really wouldn't be any reason to. There still are other people that go university to get an education in something interesting. Maybe it's just me being a geek, but that's what it should be.

This really comes down to (excuse the pun) "new-school versus old-school". This problem has been beaten to death many times in many different forms and I don't think that we could every solve it through /. comments.

As for CS being applied math, cooking is not applied math. I think the word "applied" is ambigous, however. Cooking utilizes math in its use, but it is not mathematical in nature. Exactly the same thing in general science. Studying our world through science can utilize math and create mathematical models of real life, eg f=ma. But, computing "science" is something completely different. It is itself a form of mathematics. It is just the subset of mathematics that can be performed on calculating machines. Algorithms, complexity, problem solving etc, is not utilized, it is its nature. The reason it is called applied mathematics is because it is not exaclty pure mathematics. Pure math has no direct application by definition.

Re:Proposal for Exam Reform

[ites]

Hmmm, you raise some interesting points.
But you appear to have romantic notions about the role of universities.
Originally, guilds had their own schools. Skills were transmitted in secrecy.
Knowledge is power and status, power and status define success in our societies.
Universities were created by governments to take power away from the guilds.
Especially, and primarily by and for men.
(There are fundamental differences in the way men and women acquire and use status.)
Universities were created to channel, transmit, and often control essential knowledge.
Only a species on holiday can say 'unapplied education is worth something'. It is not, IMHO.

Re:Proposal for Exam Reform

[Kwikymart]

Only a species on holiday can say 'unapplied education is worth something'. It is not, IMHO.

I agree that strictly unapplied knowledge isn't worth much in a global sense. This doesn't say much about real life though. There are many places one can apply their knowledge. This could be by voting, public debate (sort of like this), or making rational decisions for example. Just getting jobs for students should not be the focus of university. I am not saying that the knowledge should or cannot be applied. I am saying that a university education should be at a different level than this. Getting prepared for life is not the same as getting prepared to work. If a university teaches in a field where there is very little work for their graduates, it is not a failure of the university. Marketable skills change over time and what might have been a very promising career could be worth peanuts tomorrow. Market trends should not dictate human knowledge. We should not abandon seemingly useless subjects so that students can learn what is best for the economic viability of their nation. That is not what being educated is really about.

A job should really be an independant bi-product of a university education, not a result, if it were in the right field. That is why here, in Canada, universities and colleges are treated differently. A university is about higher education and research. College is about preparing people for a career. It would be a failure for a college to not provide skills for a useful job, but not a university.

Re:Proposal for Exam Reform

[Anonymous Coward]

Man,

I wish my university would JUST take away 5% of my gross salary for 5 years. The way I'm seeing it, its over 30% of my post-tax salary for over ten years.

It was worth it tho'. I love my job.

no crap

[xeeno]

How much of a kickback from ETS does a university get from requiring that students take the GRE? It's a pointless test, the real culling of the herd occurs after the comprehensives - and it's not like departments don't look at the student's transcripts before sending a positive admissions letter and offer letter.
So the real issue isn't forcing quality of students, it's a way for the university and a 3rd party to scam a little cash before taking the next 2-6 years of your life. People really don't realize how poorly this test reflects ability - when I first took it, I took it cold and got a 1300 on it. I bought a cheapo study guide and then made a 2200 on it. The only thing I did was practice a little on the included online adaptive program and look at some of the TRICKS at getting quick and easy answers.

Re:no crap

[f97tosc]

Merit-based admissions are difficult. How do you compare the ability of different students?

As you rightly point out, the GRE scores are largely affected by how much preparation was made (e.g., by working through cheap guides). It is thus a measure of both talent and motivation (and perhaps free time available).

The GRE is good, not because it is perfect but because it can complement other imperfect alternatives. Grades are very difficult to compare and letters of recommendations all tend to be extremely positive.

I completely disagree with the scam suggestion. It is certainly true that the 3rd party makes money on the test, but are you suggesting that the universities get a commission - and that that is the reason why they use the test?

Tor

No more Asian CS students?

[Anonymous Coward]

Good.
Does this mean I can leave my gas mask and bucket o' cleaning supplies home when I go to the lab?

Are people less ethical now than they used to be?

[frenchgates]

Regardless of your feelings about this particular case, does it seem to you like people, especially in America, are less ethical than they have been in previous generations or is that just "greatest generation" nostalgia? I'm pretty sure there is a lot more cheating now than there used to be even twenty years ago, leading to business practices like those seen at Tyco and Enron.

When they will halt exams because of this?

[chip_hk]

There is lots of braindump out there for MCSE, CC**, CNE tests, so supposely they should halt the tests, aren't they?

of course, these are businesses..

So what?

[Zzz]

My quantum mechanics teacher has a very good solution to this. He had a file with 100 problems. An exam was a random draw of 3 of those. You could get all problems, plus all completely elaboreated answers from him if you asked for it. If you could memorize the correct answers to those 100 questions, you knew what was required for the subject...

Re:So what?

[TheSync]

My quantum mechanics teacher has a very good solution to this. He had a file with 100 problems. An exam was a random draw of 3 of those.

Yeah, I had the same teacher, and it was tougher than just that.

The three questions were actually superpositions of the 100, so you wouldn't know what they were until you observed them on the test ;)

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

> My quantum mechanics teacher has a very good solution to this. He had a file with 100 problems. An exam was a random draw of 3 of those. You could get all problems, plus all completely elaboreated answers from him if you asked for it. If you could memorize the correct answers to those 100 questions, you knew what was required for the subject...

I'd respond that his method doesn't show that the students know anything about the subject, only that they can memorize and recite on demand. Not the same thing if the students don't understand what they're parroting back, or forget most of it a week after the exam.

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you can memorize 100 free-response QM questions/answers, then you're probably going to know a bit about the subject at the end.

Re:So what?

[GuyMannDude]

The three questions were actually superpositions of the 100, so you wouldn't know what they were until you observed them on the test ;)

Yeah, and every time you re-read the problem, it would change on you!

GMD

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Exkuse me. I am a Kuantom Phicisist un I voot like to know how managed you the system (in superposed state, that is.)

Sucks if you're applying to top schools

[PourYourselfSomeTea]

I took a year off and hadn't decided on going to grad school when I did. So I hadn't taken the damn thing. Now I'm applying, and in my appplication process, I am applying to three top schools, all of which require the results of this test. Now I won't even be able to take it before the schools' applications are due. ARG this sucks.

Re:Sucks if you're applying to top schools

[sosentos]

A friend who is applying to many of the "top" schools told me many are not making the test mandatory this year. Also which schools are requiring it? I know CMU does but MIT certainly does not. In fact, they don't even require the general GRE.

Read the article!!

[Tikiman]

Another crappy headline - this test was canceled for China and India only, and only about 1300 or so students from those countries even took the tesk in 2002...

Re:Read the article!!

[PourYourselfSomeTea]

No. The test was cancelled for the US as well. Read GRE's site here

Re:Read the article!!

[Gaurang]

No. The test was cancelled for the US as well. Read GRE's site here (gre.org)

No. Read the GRE site yourself.

The November 2002 and April 2003 Computer Science Subject Tests have been cancelled worldwide, but the December 2002 test will be administered everywhere in the world barring India and China.

Re:Not a tragedy, because you're from the US

[fizbin]

Especially if you read the article, it states that the real problem was in China and India; as a result there will be no CS GRE in those countries this academic year. So not only will students from those countries face the generally tougher requirements that international students face when applying to US schools, but for this year they won't have the advantage of a GRE score which shows that they know what's what.

So no, it's not a tragedy because it doesn't affect students coming from the US, only those dirty foreigners.

Re:Are people less ethical now than they used to b

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll wager the students involved in this (for the most part) were NOT Americans. (Wink Wink)

Re:Not a tragedy, because you're from the US

[back_pages]

Yeah, good point. Anything to get rid of those dirty foreigners. You really clued yourself in to my subtle hidden agenda, like when I said, "[Fewer international students] will certainly be a loss."

Considering that many people feel that corporations in America are abusing the immigration laws to bring in foreign CS people who undercut the domestic workers' salary expectations, I don't call this a tragedy. If there had been problems with grad school admissions in chemistry, physics, mathematics, or medical schools, I think this would be a serious issue. Unfortunately for these international students, they won't be able to swamp schools in the states in a field that is currently saturated with entry level candidates. Boo hoo.

It's really miserable that I've taken the time to explain this, but you know about those dirty American students - can't figure anything out for themselves.

Re:Not a tragedy, because you're from the US

[bombom]

Do any of you actually read the articles before posting?

The exam has been cancelled worldwide. No one can take the CS gre till they have retooled it.

Re:I've never understood...the point of GREs.

[Herbmaster]

Undergraduate entrance exams make sense; they verify that you have the prerequisite knowledge to take (pretty standard) undergraduate courses.

On the contrary, undergraduate entrance exams do not make sense because (okay, I'm only talking about the SAT here - limited experience), because they are so easy that all you need to do is be a good "test taker" and you can own them. Being a good test taker basically means approaching every question with the attitude that you can get the right answer because one of the choices is right and you've been exposed to the information needed to find it at some point in the past (by 9th grade, 10th grade at the latest). Little actual thinking and knowledge are required to get any question on the SAT correct.

As a result, anyone can do well on an undergraduate entrance exam, not necessarily people who are either smart or a good student. GREs are a little different in that the material is "hard", but they're still multiple guess. The requirement of having a hard multiple choice problem means that most problems have to fall into one of a few patterns of "ways you can make a multiple choice question hard." So again, good test takers can own the tests. Except this time, the amount of knowledge required is higher, indicating that the taker may have had to learn something as an undergrad. This means the test does a better job of measuring if the taker is a good student: a person who can readily learn what they do not already know (and work hard). Remember, "smart" people are not necessarily what a school desires. Graduate schools are a little more keen to this and therefore don't require the GRE or subject GREs as often as they require SATs/ACTs.

Re:Are people less ethical now than they used to b

[Anonymous Coward]

From my experiences in school I'd wager alot of them were from the Middle East to.

Re:Not a tragedy, because you're from the US

[Anonymous Coward]

And the retooled version is on December 15, which is extremely close to (or the same day as) the application deadlines at a lot of schools.

GRE really does make sense!

[Gaurang]

So the real issue isn't forcing quality of students, it's a way for the university and a 3rd party to scam a little cash before taking the next 2-6 years of your life. People really don't realize how poorly this test reflects ability - when I first took it, I took it cold and got a 1300 on it. I bought a cheapo study guide and then made a 2200 on it.

Wait. You are wrong here.

Dozens and dozens of my friends and acquaintances (and myself) have taken the GRE, and based on their results, I can assert that, given that you study for the test seriously, it reasonably estimates your general aptitude. And that a GRE score is a reasonable measure of your academic skills, which when used along with other application materials, is really useful for admission decisions.

And the GRE Subject Tests are even more useful, since they objectively measure domain-specific knowledge, and tell you how much a student really knows about his subject. (cant rely solely on GPA!)

More importantly, however, there is one very significant positive point about the GRE, which just cannot be put down. The applicants to US Graduate School include a large number of students from dozens of different countries each having its own peculiar education system. Its almost impossible to compare such students coming from schools which the US schools have never even heard of before, let alone having some knowledge about their education quality. The GRE and other standardized tests are most helpful in this area because each and every student across the world has to give the same test, and hence the scores can be used to compare students coming from very different backgrounds.

Re:GRE really does make sense!

[Anonymous Coward]

A very good article about the origins of ETS, the SAT, and the GRE was published in a story in the Atlantic several years ago.

Specifially, the idea that these standardized tests can be used to compare students of different backgrounds is thoroughly debunked.

Re:GRE really does make sense!

[GuyMannDude]

So the real issue isn't forcing quality of students, it's a way for the university and a 3rd party to scam a little cash before taking the next 2-6 years of your life. People really don't realize how poorly this test reflects ability - when I first took it, I took it cold and got a 1300 on it. I bought a cheapo study guide and then made a 2200 on it.

Wait. You are wrong here.

Wrong about what? His scores? You should specifically state what you are objecting to.

Dozens and dozens of my friends and acquaintances (and myself) have taken the GRE, and based on their results, I can assert that, given that you study for the test seriously, it reasonably estimates your general aptitude.

So you can "assert" that this is a good test of aptitude based on a sample size of "dozens and dozens", huh? Gees, I sure hope you didn't pass the GRE Statistics test with flying colors...

And that a GRE score is a reasonable measure of your academic skills, which when used along with other application materials, is really useful for admission decisions.

How many grad school admission boards have you served on? How can you make this statement?

Its almost impossible to compare such students coming from schools which the US schools have never even heard of before, let alone having some knowledge about their education quality. The GRE and other standardized tests are most helpful in this area because each and every student across the world has to give the same test, and hence the scores can be used to compare students coming from very different backgrounds.

That's a good point but the rest of your post is pretty lacking. Be a bit more careful in your responses.

GMD

Re:Not a tragedy, because you're from the US

[SDF-7]

You're both right.

The _November_ exam is cancelled worldwide (as is the April). There will still be a December exam in all countries except China and India.

So US students are not as affected (they still can take an exam this winter), though I would expect the slots to fill up quickly if any are left at all by now.

GRE ha ha ha, but you'd better take it seriously

[Nexus7]

You stupid fool, the people from Asia get high scores because the GRE is a simple test. Most Asians will get somewhat lower scrores in English, but still in the 90+ percentile. This is in spite of some not speaking English well, because the test is about written English and its comprehension. Do you comprehend this? Plus the Asians aren't stupid, they practice on the same old tests that are available to American and other students. Your friend is way off and you would do better to understand the situation before using her to support your bigotry.

Oh, and if you are applying to grad school, the GRE scores should be a big worry. It's a simple test, but it's simple for everybody, so you had better bust your ass to get good scores, otherwise they'll filter you out easily without having to work for your application fees.

FYI, there are ethical Asian students too.

[obnoximoron]

> This department recieves MANY applications from Asia and the GRE scores are a joke. Almost all of the applicants have a 99% percentile on ALL three sections of the general exam. And yet when they come here they can barely speak english.

And go easy on the sweeping generalizations. Maybe you are unaware that English is a first language in some of the countries from asia.

I did my undergrad from a well-known premier technology institute in the South Asian subcontinent and every EE and CS grad I knew there really earned his/her GRE score. Most of them were truly brilliant, had a firm command of English and I couldn't possibly imagining any of them cheating for a few extra points. They were ethical and proud brainiacs. Or perhaps I was lucky to have moved in such good company. I wouldn't deny that there were also other lesser mortals who cheated using all these cheap tactics as discovered by the ETS. But you be careful before making any sweeping generalizations.

Re:FYI, there are ethical Asian students too.

[vkartik]

As a person who has gone through GRE exams, applied to universities in the US & completed my Masters, I can definitely tell that most people do work very hard for their GRE exams (ofcourse everybody uses sample tests including Kaplans, Barrons, you name it) GRE is a written exam and the education system in India and China are more oriented towards examinations, whereas the US system is oriented more towards projects for a course (be it a grad or undergrad). As a result, there is no wonder that people from India and China do well on GRE EXAMINATIONS. Also, the GRE is no different from a MCSE or a SUN certification. There are thousands and thousands of sites on the web to find sample examinations and questions that have appeared (or something close) in previous examinations. Does this mean that SUN OR MCSE have stopped their exams?? NO. In that aspect, GRE is a simple exam. Secondly, instead of adapting to the 'tech' world ideas, the GRE just cancelled their exam to fix their problem. As a side note, there are people who take the GRE (especially the CS test) who go to the exam just to memorize the questions and start their own question bank. Why? Because CS questions tend to repeat themselves more than anything else. Why? bcos whoever sets up these examinations are not doing their job well. The one good thing is that this shows how the internet has established itself in these countries. Earlier, these question banks used to be just paper copies, now they are posted on the net.

Re:FYI, there are ethical Asian students too.

[That_Dan_Guy]

What you say is true, there are a lot of ethical asians out there. My wife is one of them. But if you want to find the people who complain the most about those unethical Asians, go to Asia.

These tests are being adjusted to take into account the cram schools in China that produce perfect socres on things like the TOEFL but have students coming over that can't understand a word of spoken English, and can't write a single grammatically correct sentence.

I have some Taiwanese friends at UCLA, and what UCLA does it put them on sort of probation (Sorry, I have to listen to them in Chinese talking with my wife, and my Chinese is certainly not as good as their English) for a year or two before putting them into the real grad program they applied for. Few get accepted straight out.

The other problem that this has created is that there are many Grad students from China that have very poor English but are hired as Teaching Assistants. This is a problem for student from countries where Chinese is not spoken, since the TAs cannot adequetly explain difficult subjects to them in English.

But the people I have heard complain about phony perfect Asian GRE scores the most are other Asians. Maybe that's only becuase I lived in Taiwan for 5 years and for the past 2 years most of the people I socialize with are from Taiwan.

Re:Are people less ethical now than they used to b

[Anonymous Coward]

more cheating, or more access to cheating?

GRE Questions are flawed anyways...

[Anonymous Coward]

The thing that cracked me up taking the Computer Science GRE is how many questions are ambiguous or flat out wrong. When I took it last, I counted seven questions that had no correct answer listed, or multiple correct answers listed. Of course, to know this you had to have some practical experience rather than getting your education out of a textbook.

Best part was getting my 96% score revised upward a few months later because ETS found errors in the exam. No shit.

Re:GRE Questions are flawed anyways...

[metachimp]

My experience is similar, in relation to the logic sections of the LSAT, a test I prepped for, but never took. The key to situations like this is that there may be more than 1 answer that is, technically, correct, but there is one answer that is most correct, or is the best possible answer. They put these kinds of questions on there to find out if you can not just find a right answer, but find the best answer. That's why they have those.

Other cheating...

[MrNovember]

There has been other cheating on the GRE uncovered this summer. AP had a story on how there were Korean and Chinese GRE cheat databases.

I'm sure that it's pretty common especially given the insane scores of some people on the exams. I've seen a lot of CS grad school applications where the scores do not match the person who shows up. I mean there are some seriously stupid people who have 99% on EVERY section of the GRE. Most often, you'd see someone with a 99% on the English portion of the test who'd show up and have an obviously low command of spoken and written English. Typically this was most obvious in Chinese students -- too bad because this is probably one of those "one bad apple" problems.

Of course I disagree with the whole idea of the CS portion of the exam. I mean I remember some stuff on there was just bizarre. Karnaugh maps and crap like that -- who cares?

Re:Other cheating...

[donutello]

mean there are some seriously stupid people who have 99% on EVERY section of the GRE.

Nonsense. I had perfect scores on the Quantitative and Analytical sections and that only qualifies for a 98%ile.

If the general math standards weren't so pathetic in the US, maybe the Quantitative section wouldn't be the joke it is right now.

unlike the past...

[Anonymous Coward]

At least this time they're cancelling it rather than letting people take it after already having the problems.

THe physics GRE was found online at Chinese language sites before the test date... as well as older GREs. That made for some fairly tough compitition for those of us not "sharing".

The GRE-CS dates are ludicrous to begin with

[dmauer]

Someone please explain this to me:

The GRE CS Subject test is (with the exception of this year) offered in April, November and December. Most applications for graduate programs are due in December (or Jan.1 at the latest). I was just starting to prepare for all of this in April, and was shocked to find that there were NO dates for the CS test (which is required or 'strongly recommended' by all the schools to which I'm applying) until November. Since it's a paper-based test, results take 4-6 weeks or so to get through to the schools. Which means that even taking the test in November, there's a chance that your school of choice won't get your CS scores by Dec. 15, a popular application deadline.

WHY? Why on EARTH would the test be offered in December and not, say, July or August? Is it just done that way to make life more frustrating for grad school applicants?

And now, on top of this, the november test is canceled. Thankfully, all the schools to which I'm applying said they're going to happily take late scores this year due to the cancellation, and that it won't affect my application process, but I must say it's driving me nuts that I'll still be worrying about and studying for the CS exam in the final weeks of the application process, when I'd rather be speaking with professors, gathering recommendation letters, and working on my statement of purpose. Instead, I'll still be making sure I've got the ins and outs of compiler design and plenty of other areas of CS that I don't ever plan to really study in depth fresh in my mind, and I won't even know what my scores are before I send in the application.

Oh, well. That's enough crankiness for one morning.

-Dan.

NOT CANCELED

[Anonymous Coward]

If you read the link the GRE CS exam has not been canceled world wide.

Re:NOT CANCELED

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, what part of "the November 2002 administration of the GRE Computer Science Test has been cancelled worldwide" don't you understand?

Or, for that matter, "unlike prior years, there will be no April 2003 Computer Science Test administration, worldwide".

Or, "the GRE Computer Science Test will not be administered in India and China, including Hong Kong, in the 2002-03 testing year".

Why share? Here's all you need!

[TheHumbone]

I took the Engineering GRE three years ago. Towards the end of the exam, I started to see a pattern--using no brain at all, the answers to every question could be reduced to two. Example: a question on a circuit might have the following answers:

a) I = 5
b) I = 3
c) V = 2
d) V = 4
e) V = -2

Right away, you throw out the first minority (a and b). Then the next minority (e). Voila! Your answer is c or d. I swear that more than half of the questions on the test fit this pattern.

Don't Panic

[kennon42]

Even though they cancelled the November '02 test, they are still having the December '02 test (I'm registered for it). And as far as grad school applications go, I believe they can accept your GRE scores a bit later than your actual application.

Any tips or suggestions for taking the CS Subject test? They are supposed to be sending me the practice booklet, but I have not been able to find ANY other subject test prep books.

-K-

How is this so different from Kaplan & Princet

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like the commercial test training companies must be behind this. Kaplan and Princeton Review, two of the larger companies that teach people how to succeed on these and other standardized tests, do exactly the same thing as this! They regularly have their own people take tests and attempt to memorize the types of questions being asked, and then they create their own practice questions for their students/customers.

Sounds to me like the only difference here is that the commercial enterprises may not have a lock on the market if this continues, and it won't just be the wealthy that have an advantage on the tests.

- Jason

Microsoft revoked certifications.

[Tenebrious1]

Microsoft revoked the MCSEs of a few people who ran braindump sites. I think the two guys who ran BrainDump Heaven had their certifications revoked and are prohibited from being recertified. I posted a few full dumps myself, but after people started getting their certs revoked, I stopped. I think Cisco sent out warning letters to braindump sites as well, and after that most sites disappeared or went underground.

Ok, that may not mean much to you, but some consulting companies require the certification so they can tell their clients "our consultants are all certified". I wasn't going to risk multiple certifications which took me a couple thousand dollars.

The sites that still exist in the open make up their own questions, which may be like the exam questions but are not exam dumps. That's how they still operate.

It's not just ETS, it's the whole testing industry

[ErichTheRed]

Ever since testing switched to computer-based, there have been easier and easier ways to cheat devised. I took the GRE on paper 5 years ago, and they were just starting to roll out CBT for it (the GMAT was already at 50% computer-administered or so.) It was a seven-hour ordeal (general and Chemistry subject test) conducted in a secure auditorium. And unless a proctor snuck Kaplan TestPrep a copy of the test booklet or some student with a photographic memory barfed out the questions after the test, there was no way the test could be leaked.

Flash forward to now, where all the testing is outsourced to Prometric and other companies, who further outsource it to Mom 'N' Pop's MCSE Training School. Who's keeping them honest? The questions are downloaded right to their server; what's to stop them from selling them to whoever wants them?

The number one thing that killed the MCSE as a valid credential was the braindumpers who had access to the exam questions, or who could take the exams over and over again under the "old" retake policy. And given that Transcender makes tons of money selling practice tests, I'm sure they sent in a few test takers of their own. The same could be said for Kaplan.

Add this to the fact that many MCSE cheat schools have been busted for taking the exams for students, giving them help, etc. Makes you wonder how much is being leaked...

Granted, the general section of the GRE is an aptitude test. The only possible advantage you could have is access to the reading passages beforehand, or knowing what the logic questions looked like. But buying a test prep book gives you a general idea of what you see. However, the subject test is quite another story. That thing was a bear, and I was a good chemistry student. Several hours of random trivia questions, some in subjects we'd never even covered. There, access to the material beforehand would be a cheater's dream come true.

Re:GRE ha ha ha, but you'd better take it seriousl

[susano_otter]

Sweet! With a User # of 2919, you're the oldest tiresome bore in my /. collection. Between that and making Blade Runner look stupid, you must be very proud.

Consider what's trying to be accomplished here.

[LifesABeach]

Has anyone considered that the current state of computing is still in its beginings? There are literally a universe of computing questions that beg to be explained. We do need more creative minds working on these solutions. When a student of computers has the energy to find the answers to these tests, then there is one more thinking mind avaible that will be given a chance to answer what we all do not understand. My experience has shown there are easyer ways to get into college than cram-study for a computer exam.

But one thing does strike me as very odd. Are our education standards for computers enough to take this computer g.r.e. test and pass?

Re:GRE ha ha ha, but you'd better take it seriousl

[smaug195]

Ummmm, there was a whole show on NPR devoted just to how common cheating on the GRE is in asia. The reason why they don't administer online tests anymore is because everybody there cheats.

The issue with the situation his friend has is clearly, the GRE is a poor reflection of a person, maybe there should be a better test?

Extreme example of the Canadian situation

[Anonymous Coward]

Medical schools are even worse.

The cheapest accredited medical school for US citizens is McGill. It also happens to be a very good medical school. My wife is a dual US/Canadian citizen. If she wasn't Canadian, she would have been a strong candidate. But as a Canadian who isn't from Quebec, she was in a far more competitive pool, shooting for one of 2 slots IIRC.

She volunteered to apply as an American and pay the US rate if it would get her into the US pool. Their bureaucracy wouldn't allow her to do that.

I don't mind foreigners competing for the same spots as local citizens. I do mind them competing on advantageous terms. Though I must admit that if US students were put up against general Canadian ones, they wouldn't survive. Medical school is far more competitive in Canada than the US. (McGill applying as a Canadian was no hope, but she got into one of the top 10 US medical schools instead.)

how admission actually works

[dwallach]

I'm an assistant professor at Rice University, in the CS department, and I've been part of the committee that admits grad students. Since there seem to be a lot of questions here, I'll try to answer them as best I can.

Admissions to a research program, like ours, is based on a bunch of different things. A good way to think of it is that your statement of purpose and your letters of recommendation are the things that build your case and everything else is an opportunity for you to shoot yourself in the foot.

First, on behalf of every professor inundated with e-mails, let me say that there's no benefit, whatsoever, in mass e-mailing every professor on the planet to see if they're interested in you. However, if you have a particular research interest that matches a particular professor (say, security of peer-to-peer systems or of mobile code systems, in my case), then do send that one professor a personal e-mail.

So, then, what makes for a good statement of purpose or good letters of recommendation? I always look for evidence that you've got technical interests beyond what you've done in class. I also look for evidence that you didn't just go to "how to get into grad school" school and follow their instructions blindly. Some of these letters just stink like they came from an insert-your-name-here template. Don't tell me "I have lots of energy!" Describe all the work that your energy has produced. Likewise, in many countries, it's customary for the student to write letters of recommendation on behalf of their advisors, who just sign them. Make your advisors write personal letters.

So, what value are the GRE scores? For the General GRE exam, there's some minimal value if the applicant is from the U.S. or Europe, but absolutely zero value if the applicant is from India or China. I don't know what they do over there, but every student seems to ace the exams, probably because they study so hard for them. The exams, thus, aren't measuring anything more than rote ability.

The CS subject test used to actually be useful and a strong score there would catch my attention (and a weak score was a huge red flag). Now, without that, we'll probably end up looking more at transcripts.

Still, let me emphasize, the best way to impress somebody like me is not with good grades or test scores, it's with research and technical experience beyond your class assignments. If you've worked with a professor on a research project, or if your code has found its way into the Linux kernel, that will get my attention (and I'll go look at the source to make sure you're telling the truth).

Obligatory plug: I'm looking for good security-minded students with strong backgrounds in systems and/or programming languages. If that's you, contact me.

Re:how admission actually works

[bruthasj]

> I don't know what they do over there, but
> every student seems to ace the exams, probably
> because they study so hard for them. The
> exams, thus, aren't measuring anything more
> than rote ability.

You're a very upbeat guy, Dan! I mean, optimistic. I'll tell you how it works -- they cheat.

I live in Taiwan and have a sister-in-law who is studying to take the GRE. The advantage in Asia (India?? -- I think this is a Rumor!) is that they have "Teachers" that take the GRE test every few months on the computer. While they are taking the test, they memorize in their heads each question. Once they're done they come back out and teach 2 month long classes for big $$$ to the students.

I don't know what the history is as far as what cancellation came first, but the GRE people have cancelled the Computer-based General test for the express purpose of reducing continuing cheating that happens in Asia.

Everything in Asia is now written and its going to stay that way for a long time. This is why previously any GRE scores coming from Asia has zero value!

Re:how admission actually works

[xzap]

I dont know about Taiwan, but I live in India in a fairly large city. I have given my GRE recently and know for a fact that there are no 'question dumps' or sites that publish questions around here.

I am in touch with a lot of people who have given or are giving their GRE and the preparation material they use is the same guides by Barrons, Kaplan and Princeton that American students use. Infact these CDs too are pretty costly around here, so not everyone gets their hands on one.

Not suprising

[Anonymous Coward]

I work with a company that closely works with ETS. A while ago a big sting came out of ETS that they cought quite a few cheating Chinease and Korean websites posting information regarding various ETS exams. Besides, trust me. As a company ETS right nwo is in a big trouble.

The Insider Modus Operandi

[Anonymous Coward]

Typically, at most prestigious institutions in India subject GRE takers gather after exams to estimate where they stand relatively and how well they did on the test, and as a byproduct they reconstruct all Q&As to generate question banks for the future test takers in the same institutions. It is understandable that someone may have leaked this out or put it visibly on the web so that ETS was forced to cover its mistakes by punishing the innocent. This is how it was since the 80's when we went through the same grill.

Most test takers are already quite knowledgeable on the subject anyway, and this just precludes silly mistakes and helps finish the test quickly while retaining scoring at 99 percentile by familiarizing one's self with the questions.

I do not see anything wrong, and that ETS should probably change the questions *every* single time. Since the scoring is relative, it does not matter how tough the new questions are !

Seems like this was made into such a big deal simply due to the stupidity or laziness of the testing institution.

Re:Are people less ethical now than they used to b

[Anonymous Coward]

Eth-i-cal? Eth-i-cal? Eth-

what is this word you speak of?

Re:It's not just ETS, it's the whole testing indus

[Anonymous Coward]

I just have to add a little comment here... ETS only holds rights to some of educational academic tests (for example GRE, GMAT, Toefl). There are many industry tests that do not belong to ETS (such as USMLE or NCLEX). All the industry tests are owned by a particular corporation whose product the industry test represents (for example all MS, Oracle, Sisco tests).
They all outsource it to companies such as VUE or Sylvan Prometric.
The mom-n-pop shops typically use Prometric or VUE testing environment. These tests are not being outsourced. The mom-n-pop shops simply own the testing centers, but all of the scheduling and proctoring is done at their parent companies.

Good.

[vegetablespork]

Maybe this will force admissions officers to actually evaluate candidates, instead of relying on a standardized test administered by a "non-profit" that taxes graduate applicants all over the world to the tune of $100 each.

Deal

[Convergence]

Deal..

I applied for grad schools about 2.5 years ago, and got 5 rejection letters...

Did I hate 'abroad students'? No.. I did research and grad classes for 2 years, and tried again, last winter, and had a choice between two top shcools, in a much tougher year for grad schools.. I still got 3 rejection letters, but I got in.

Another thing, if you're applying to top schools, try setting your sights a little lower. There are enough spectacular faculty that *any* top-40 school will have them.

Finally, remember, a lot of the application process is chance and brownian motion. If a faculty member is interested in your particular skills&background, spectacular, if that member isn't on the admissions committee this year, better luck next year.

MS CS program required 50+% in CS GRE

[AHumbleOpinion]

I know that some California state universities required 50th percentile or better in the computer science exam. This was a basic admission requirement for the Master's computer science program.

Re:They are

[elflord]

When I was applying to grad schools, I lost count of the number of things that "required US citizenship" (in particular, financial support). Most of the decent schools accept mostly American students, and only a small number of overseas students (who are usually much stronger). Some of the weaker universities accept a lot of foreign students.

As for selecting honest people, that's a noble sentiment, but it's difficult to determine honesty on an application, and it's not practical to interview all candidates.

ets is the biggest scam going...

[bigbigbison]

I hate these ets guys. $105 dollars to take the test -- which is computer scored, so there is very little cost to get the score. then if you want your score reported to more than a certain number of schools (4?) it is more money. if you forget your scores, more money. have to call them? its not an 800 number, its a regular long distance number.
these guys are raking in the money and their realy is very little reason for it. they charge that much because they can and because there really is no alternative to their tests

Not the best-run test anyway.

[Fizgig]

I took the CS GRE in April of 2001. I got back my results, which were decent (low 90s, percentile-wise) but I thought I could do better. When I eventually didn't get into the grad schools I wanted, I figured I'd take it again, giving the bloodsuckers at ETS another ~$150. I admit that this probably wasn't necessary, but oh well.

So I took the exam again April of 2002 and noticed that one of the questions had two correct answers. In fact, it was the only programming question on the exam and it was pretty trivial.

The test was on a Saturday. So I get ready to send a letter to ETS on Monday, when I find scores in my mailbox. "Man, a 2-day turnaround? When did they become efficient?" I thought. It turns out they were revised scores from the April 2001 test, which they had graded wrong. My score jumped to upper 90s without my doing anything. "Don't worry, we'll send new reports to all schools you sent your scores to", they said. Great, a lot of good that does me in April.

I sent in the letter, they admitted the question had two correct answers and wouldn't be scored, and I eventually got back scores, which were exactly the same as the revised 2001 results.

So, moral of the story -- don't take the test twice. Just take it once and assume that something will go wrong that's not your fault.

Physics too

[jmiles]

I don't know about CS, but this has gone on for years on the Physics exam. In India, the administrations assign each student 10 questions (e.g. questions 30-40) from the exam they're given, and they write them down as soon as they get out. This is the database from which everyone studies. Braindump indeed. (I'm an American grad student; this is as relayed to me by several foreign professors.)

Re:It's not just ETS, it's the whole testing indus

[ErichTheRed]

The mom-n-pop shops typically use Prometric or VUE testing environment. These tests are not being outsourced. The mom-n-pop shops simply own the testing centers, but all of the scheduling and proctoring is done at their parent companies.

While the tests themselves aren't being outsourced, the administration of them is, including proctoring, etc. Therefore, I see big security holes. Back in the paper administration days, ETS actually brought in their own proctors to handle security, etc. Now, you have two problems. The test is available whenever you want, and you can take it once a month, five times a year. This helps the braindump people. Second, the test center has a copy of the questions sitting on their super-secure file server, just waiting for an employee who wants a few extra bucks to pick them up.

Sharing Answers

[Grax]

Wouldn't it suck if we ended up with computer professionals that shared answers and cheated off each other? Who knows, we might end up with whole groups of people all using each other's code.

none

[Anonymous Coward]

none. i didnt have to either. its only if you do badly on the general test that you would take the subject test to convince your school youre not a total idiot.

Re:They are

[forgotmypassword]

"Most of the decent schools accept mostly American students, and only a small number of overseas students (who are usually much stronger). Some of the weaker universities accept a lot of foreign students."

This seems to be true in general, but I wanted to share something that I noticed when I visted graduate schools. I will not name my subject because I do not want to get anyone in trouble.

I applied to schools not entirely based on rank so the schools I visted ranged from the top 10's, top 20, top 30, and even top 40. I did notice that the higher ranked schools had less foreign students.

But I also noticed something very odd. The top 10 schools are mostly (if not all) private. And their foreign students consisted almost entirely of white, english speaking foreigners (African, Australian, ...). I thought that perhaps this was because they must all be very good students. But one student I met seemed to have a fairly weak undergraduate background - this student would have never been accepted to this school if they were an applying American. This leads me to believe that there is some sort of racism occuring in the prestigious, private schools.

This is different from undergraduate school, because in my field no one pays for graduate school, it is always free. Public universities always accept as few foreigners as possible, because state taxes want to pay for American education. But private schools are free to do as they please, so I hypothesize that they want to accept some minimum number of foreigners and from the pool of applicants they pick based on some social motivations.

MIT

[srichman]

Most of the decent schools accept mostly American students, and only a small number of overseas students (who are usually much stronger). Some of the weaker universities accept a lot of foreign students.

At MIT, at very substantial portion of the grad students are from other countries. Three of the four other people in my research group are international students. I'd imagine that international students are common in technical and engineering disciplines at most universities (this was the case at my undergrad university, UCSB).

Incidentally, MIT requires neither the GRE General Exam nor the Computer Science Subject Test of applicants to their CS grad program.

Age-old problem

[Tablizer]

Yeah yeah, we all know that testing sucks and is usually a poor indicator of anything real. However, the alternatives are not very pleasent either.

The best way to assess somebody would be to work with them in a long-term project, but that is not practical on a mass scale.

The best we can do without breaking the bank is a combination of interview, references, and testing. This is just what most colleges use.

If you have a magic solution, then lets hear it.

It is one of those things that are easy to gripe about, but hard to solve in practice and/or on a long-term scale. World hunger also fits that bill, BTW.

Texas & the GRE

[pdbogen]

Public Universities in Texas are no longer allowed to use the GRE as as a reason to deny you admittance to Grad school...

Whoop!

Re:Not a tragedy, because you're from the US

[ivan256]

So no, it's not a tragedy because it doesn't affect students coming from the US, only those dirty foreigners.

Two points:

1. There are plenty of good schools for CS outside the US. People can apply to schools in their own country. Who said 'foreigner' meant "Not from the US"? If somebody doesn't have a good school in their country they'll have to wait a year which is not such a big deal.

2. I know it's a popular stereotype to portray people from the US as 'anti' anything that's not from the US, however the US is hardly the place to go if you're looking for an example population that hates foreigners. How many countries in the EU have recently had an election with popular candidates running on an anti-immigraton platform?

Selfishness is human nature, and you'll find selfish people in any country. Don't be so quick to label an entire countries worth of people because of what this one guy said.

Test ability ... not memory ...

[ProfMoriarty]

This is a very interesting story, with many interesting thoughts.

Please note, that I have never even seen these tests, nor know anyone who has ... but I'll still pipe in :)

Instead of keeping the questions and answers "secret" ... create something like the amateur radio community has ... a large question pool (which is published), with a very limited number of questions actually asked.

The reasoning behind it, is for the sake of easily administering tests. Everybody knows the questions involved, and what you need to study is the theory behind it, not the answers ...

Now for something like this, you would have to have a HUGE question pool for each section, just to make sure that nobody knows WHICH question will be asked ... just make sure that you know the theory behind the question.

Obviously, you'll run into problems with programmable calculators being brought in, so a way to fix that would be to supply calculators (if necessary) that have all of the capabilities required.

Anyway ... just my thoughts on the process ...

How tests are typically designed

[sdeath]

It's a statistics game. You make a test then feed it to a few different groups of known skill levels, i.e. "people who already have a PhD", "bright people with a bachelor's degree", "gifted amateur", "dumber-than-a-sack-full-of-hammers-asshole-off-th e-street", etc. You then tweak the questions and scoring until a random person with a given skill level will be assigned to the proper category on the basis of a test score with some desired percentage of accuracy. You then set the "bar" for the test to give the desired number of "qualified" applicants for graduate school each year.

The problems discussed above will most likely be fixed in the next revision of the test; cheating will obviously be ineffective for awhile, and the scores will be recalculated as above so as to provide a better gauge of ability. However, I am disturbed that the rote-ability study-guide-memorization seems to be effective for this class of tests, because when the statistics are cooked the next time to detect "qualified" applicants, the bar will have risen to astronomical levels. This gives an advantage to persons with the free subsidized time/eidetic memory/coerced performance requirements that allows one to regurgitate a study guide at will, not necessarily those with the empirically greater skill. (Case in point: East Asia/Indian subcontinent. Solution? Add creativity-based questions to the test, and watch the average scores from that corner of the world drop like a rock. This is typically not amenable to a standard multiple-choice examination, though.)

As far as this year, well, I guess everybody who was planning to get into CS grad school is SOL. Tough luck. Maybe they should break down and get a real degree, like one in mathematics or engineering. (If it's got a "science" in the name, it isn't. >;->)

-SD

Last Post!

[alpg]

I used to live in a house by the freeway. When I went anywhere, I had
to be going 65 MPH by the end of my driveway.

I replaced the headlights in my car with strobe lights. Now it looks
like I'm the only one moving.

I was pulled over for speeding today. The officer said, "Don't you know
the speed limit is 55 miles an hour?" And I said, "Yes, but I wasn't going
to be out that long."

I put a new engine in my car, but didn't take the old one out. Now
my car goes 500 miles an hour.
-- Steven Wright

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