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Constructing Accessible Web Sites

actiondan writes: "Constructing Accessible Web Sites is about how to build websites that can be used by people who rely on assistive technologies to browse the web. When I picked up this book, accessibility was an area that interested me but I am now convinced that it should be in the thoughts of every web developer. Some of the laws that are emerging to regulate accessibility look positively scary and there are lots of other good reasons to take accessibility seriously." Read on for the rest of his review. Constructing Accessible Web Sites author Jim Thatcher, Paul Bohman, Michael Burks, Shawn Lawton Henry, Bob Regan, Sarah Swierenga, Mark D. Urban, Cynthia D. Waddell pages 415 publisher Glasshaus rating 8 reviewer actiondan ISBN 1904151000 summary The whys and hows of making web sites accessible to all.

What does the book cover?

Chapter 1 is an introduction to web accessibility. I would guess that most people who pick up this book will already know at least a little bit about accessibility, but this chapter provides a good overview and presents some compelling arguments for providing accessible websites. Interestingly, none of these is based on a moral argument -- they are all sound reasons why it is in the interests of an organization to think about accessibility. For example, one of these sections mentions that people with disabilities in the U.S. are estimated to control a discretionary income of over $175 billion. Making a site accessible to these people gives it access to an additional market that non-accessible sites cannot tap.

This first chapter sets the tone for the whole book. It doesn't preach about accessibility for the sake of people with disabilities but rather seeks to convince the reader that accessibility is in their interests.

Chapter 2 concentrates on one of the major reasons for making web sites accessible - laws that compel us to do so. It presents an overview of the state of the law in different parts of the world and a couple of examples of cases involving web usability. I have to admit I skimmed this chapter, as I wanted to get on to the technical stuff.

In Chapter 3, the book gets on to the mechanics of accessibility -- assistive technologies. It provides a short survey of the screen readers and other technologies that are available. I would have liked to have seen more information here on how widespread these systems are, even if just approximate.

Chapter 4 is where the book starts talking about the actual work involved in creating accessible content. It runs down the basics of accessibility (most of it is good practice such as using ALT text and so on). The blink tag even gets a mention and a "good for them!" is given to Opera for not supporting it :) This chapter will not be news to anyone who has done any accessibility work (or even just best-practices web development). The information on how tables are handled by screen readers is good though.

Chapter 5 looks in more detail at navigation. The advice here is good even outside of an accessibility context and there are some good points about 'gotchas' that could make sites difficult to navigate with assistive technologies.

In Chapter 6, input gets the same treatment that navigation got in the last chapter. I wasn't sure about the stuff on PDF forms (does anyone actually use these for web input?) but the advice on HTML forms was great.

Chapter 7 is about testing for section 508 (of the U.S. Rehabilitation Act) compliance. Initially, this was another chapter that I skimmed, as I am not based in the U.S., but then I realised that the testing advice in this chapter is not just useful for section 508 compliance -- it is useful for general accessibility testing.

Chapter 8 studies the accessibility of web development tools themselves. This doesn't apply to me but it was interesting to see how the tools (Dreamweaver, Frontpage, GoLive, Homesite and BBEdit) compare in terms of usability. This would have been a lot easier if there had been a summary table of the ratings given to the applications.

Chapter 9 seemed a little out of place. It is on "Separating Style from Presentation" and basically looks at CSS. I'm sure most people picking up this book will, like me, not need to be taught CSS basics. I skipped the chapter and very nearly missed an interesting little section on aural stylesheets.

I was surprised that chapter 10 was devoted to Flash, as I expected that Flash coverage in an accessibility book would be limited to a few paragraphs lambasting Macromedia for creating such an inaccessible technology. Well, it turns out that the new version of Flash supports accessibility much better than previous ones. This chapter was a real eye-opener for me. Clearly there is more work to be done but well done to Macromedia for putting accessibility support in!

Chapter 11 didn't really interest me much -- it seems to be more aimed at people who need to implement an accessibility strategy, one to hand over to managers once the technical content of the book is digested.

Chapter 12 is a bit of a heads-up on newer technologies and how they affect accessibility. There is some brief but decent discussion of how technologies such as SVG support accessibility.

The last actual chapter, Chapter 13, is a more in-depth look at U.S. web accessibility law. This was another one that I skimmed but one section did catch my eye. There is a discussion that raises the scary idea that web developers may be held liable for inaccessible web sites, even if their client told them to ignore the issue. If this is true, then it is an important point for every web developer to consider -- could you be held liable?

There are three appendices in the book; a quick reference guide summarises the most important advice given in the book, a glossary of terms and an appendix that details the U.S. Section 508 legislation.

Conclusion

Apart from the basic CSS coverage and the more U.S.-specific sections, I found the vast majority of the information in the book to be very interesting to me. The style was good too -- I was surprised that a book with 8 authors manages to maintain such a consistent and readable tone throughout.

Overall, I found the book a much more interesting read than I was expecting it to be. It gives specific advice about the way web sites should be constructed with accessibility in mind and offers strong arguments for following the advice.

It seems that accessibility is going to be a fact of life in web development. That being the case, every web developer needs to learn at least something about it, if only to use as ammunition in interviews. I would definitely recommend Constructing Accessible Websites as a good source of information on the area.

You can purchase Constructing Accessible Web Sites from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.

286 comments

  1. Lemme guess... by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 1, Redundant
    No javascript oxdung...

    No flash crap...

    No blazing colours...

    Hmmm. Looks like a lot of web "designers" will be pissed!!!! And out of a job when their bosses read the book!!!!

    1. Re:Lemme guess... by macdaddy · · Score: 2
      No tables.

      No frames.

      Highly descriptive ALT tags on everything, even spacer images.

      The list just goes on.

    2. Re:Lemme guess... by nogoodmonkey · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I know it won't happen, but I hope that all web developers stop using Flash. It is the worst idea ever thought of (next to Netobjects Fusion) for the mere fact that you can't go back or forward in the webbrowser.

      Truthfully, I am surprised that Macromedia hasn't had a lawsuit filed directly against them for Flash files not being parsable by accessability readers. But then again, its all the web developers fault! :-)

    3. Re:Lemme guess... by dnoyeb · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why should a book have more authority than the US Government? Accessiblility has been LAW for some time now. Just because you ignore it does not mean its legal to do so.

      My mother is legally blind and I help her with windows usage often. Frames can be done if the Author is concious of what he/she is doing. But trash such as right clicking to save a page and the page not saving because its appearing through some deep linkage garbage is terrible. Screen readers can not dig through all that garbage.

      The days when we all use HTML editors to do our websites were much kinder. Now that we use non-html tools, the generated code is quite a mess but no one cares. YOu used to be able to even read a web page through telnet. You can forget it now.

      Hes right on all the flash TV Wannabe jibberish. But you can always have 2 sites. In stead of frames / non-frames, go Standard, or accessible. An accessible site can be BLAND and just a list of links and pages such as generated by TUX> or whatever that linux html generator thingy is.

      Glad to see this. M$ has been bullsitting on Accessibility for ages. Though they are far ahead of Linux.

    4. Re:Lemme guess... by Eeeeegon · · Score: 2, Informative

      Tables are fine; it's NESTED tables that give some browsers fits.

      BTW, the W3C HTML validator checks out your code and will tell you what's not standard. To make sure your code is syntactically correct, make your page XHTML 1.0 compliant, and you'll be in good shape. (XHTML requires many of these 'optional' attributes, like 'alt' attributes for images, and closing 'p' tags, etc. It's very handy; it makes your code cleaner, and it turns HTML into an XML document.)

    5. Re:Lemme guess... by cheezycrust · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually, the newest Flash version has capabilities for disabled people. the Nielsen Norman Group helped them in adapting the product for different target groups.

      The latest Alertbox of Jacob Nielsen talks about Making Flash Usable for Users With Disabilities - also the subject of a tutorial at Macromedia DevCon in Orlando.

      --
      Teenagers these days don't have as much sex as they want each other to think they do.
    6. Re:Lemme guess... by dpt · · Score: 1

      And out of a job when their bosses read the book!!!!

      "When"?

      Most already were out of a job when the bubble burst and everyone went back to whatever career path they had in 1996. Hence the misleading stats for computing related job-losses. How many of these are *really* computing, and how many just "putting up web pages", in most cases just lame filler while the MBAs searched in vain for a business model?

      How many "web designers" do I know looking for work? Plenty. How many engineers, sysadmins, and so forth? Not one. Obviously, a skewed sample, but there it is.

    7. Re:Lemme guess... by RedWolves2 · · Score: 1

      Usually when a web developer (including me) develops a flash site they develop an HTML version of that site for non-browsers. So if I were blind I just don't install Flash and I am all set.

    8. Re:Lemme guess... by patgas · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I personally believe MORE web applications should be done using Flash, or better yet, a non-proprietary scalable vector solution. Think about it. With online stores, bulletin boards, databases, etc, etc, we've pretty much beaten the "page" metaphor into the dust. I'd rather let documents be documents (in XHTML/XML, with nice friendly metadata), and let applications be done with the vector graphics.

      In a lot of the database-driven apps I've done, I find the page-to-page paradigm (did I just say that?) really breaks down, and I'd rather just use a Flash interface to keep things consistent.

      I point to .NET as an ugly example of trying to further mutilate "documents" into "applications". Let each do their thing, seperately.

    9. Re:Lemme guess... by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 3, Funny
      No javascript oxdung...

      No flash crap...

      No blazing colours...

      Hmmm. Looks like a lot of web "designers" will be pissed!!!! And out of a job when their bosses read the book!!!!

    10. Re:Lemme guess... by K8Fan · · Score: 2
      Usually when a web developer (including me) develops a flash site they develop an HTML version of that site for non-browsers.

      The problem with that approach is that you then have two different sites to update and maintain. Guess which one will fall behind?

      "Separate but Equal" was a bad idea below the Mason-Dixon line in the 1960s, it's a bad idea on the web.

      So if I were blind I just don't install Flash and I am all set.
      Not the case with the vast majority of web sites, and sorry, but I don't think it is likely to be true with your site either. Post the URL and let us try it with Lynx.

      Besides, except for those sites that specifically feature animation, most visitors don't really want to see Flash. Be honest with yourself. Do some analysis of your logs and see how many people enter your sites from a page after your Flash intro page. The most popular button on most Flashed web pages is the "skip intro" button.

      --
      "How perfectly Goddamn delightful it all is, to be sure" Charles Crumb
    11. Re:Lemme guess... by RedWolves2 · · Score: 1

      Guess which one will fall behind?

      Niether if you are doing a dynamic site.

    12. Re:Lemme guess... by baudbarf · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Highly descriptive ALT tags on everything, even spacer images.

      I am web designer for a small Northern California company, and I chose to use highly descriptive ALT tags on everything - even spacer images.

      I'm aware that it doesn't help screen readers or people who browse without graphics, and LYNX as well; and I'm not happy about that. My aim has always been accessibility and platform-agnosticism, which is part of the reason I use Opera (Mouse gestures being the other part).

      But look at the company's viewpoint - they want to be found in search engines, they want it so bad they can taste it. It's my JOB to do everything I can to get our Google ranking higher. Among other methods I employ to further this pursuit, filling ALT tags with keyword-rich text is one that is theorized as a good way to get this done.

      If everybody else stopped doing it, I probably could, because then nobody would have an unfair advantage over me. But if other people do it, I have a choice: A) Don't sink to their level and allow myself to be buried in search results, or B) Do the same thing and maintain an advantage.

      So, here I am, betraying a principle I believe in so I can pay my DSL bill every month. I'm not proud of it, but what would you do in my situation?

      --
      You can run but you can't hide, except, apparently, along the Afghan-Pakistani border.
    13. Re:Lemme guess... by HelpfulPete · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that JavaScript and Flash is terrible stuff! And anyone who isn't using Lynx is a traitor to the Great Self-Righteous Techno-Luddite cause!

      What the f is up with people who hate flash and JS so much? Yeah, it gets overused and misused, but so does HTML, XML, gifs, C, English...

      I have found that most of the people who whine so much about flash and JavaScript are back-end guys who are skilled at their thing but have no clue how to make a web page, or dilletantes who thought they could just cruise through life knowing nothing but HTML

      --
      "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top. " - Edward Abbey
    14. Re:Lemme guess... by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 2

      The guys who bitch the most at flash are those whose platforms cannot support the flash shit, especially when the flash does stuff that is totally useless to present the information; that is, flash just for the glitzyness sake.

    15. Re:Lemme guess... by HelpfulPete · · Score: 1

      Hmm...my Linux and Win2k boxes do fine with Flash, as does the Mac I keep for testing...what is this platform that doesn't support flash? Vic-20? TRS-80?

      That said, I do agree that Flash is badly abused and I have constant battles with 'creative' dept. to keep this from happening, but it's great for some things. NOT navigation, NOT presenting text...but I have a quiz thingie for a client where their questions/answer pairs are kept in text files and can be pulled in by HTML or Flash pages and the Flash version is way cooler and a million times easier to maintain.

      I'm responsible and sniff for flash and serve an alternative page to people that can't view it, it's not Flash's fault if not everyone is equally professional.

      --
      "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top. " - Edward Abbey
    16. Re:Lemme guess... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There isn't a very compelling reason to use Flash for designing most application interfaces.

      Despite what most Flash advocates think, the player is really only available for Win or MacOS, with *nix players often months behind if they emerge at all, so the cross-platform argument is a non-starter. HTML may be half-assed and kinda crappy, but it's universal.

      Flash excels at Vector animation, whereas most applications need GUI widgets, such as those found in various development kits.

      And to top it all off: I (who have done quite a bit of Flash professionally) am on the verge of uninstalling the plugin from my browser because of it's primary use as an ad-delivery mechanism. Sure, I've seen jaw-dropping Flash pieces, but the noise-to-signal ratio is extremely low.

    17. Re:Lemme guess... by woogieoogieboogie · · Score: 1
      "Most already were out of a job when the bubble burst and everyone went back to whatever career path they had in 1996. Hence the misleading stats for computing related job-losses. How many of these are *really* computing, and how many just "putting up web pages", in most cases just lame filler while the MBAs searched in vain for a business model?"

      Now you are picking on 1996!!! What happened to your favorite year, 1998?

      When the bubble burst and hyndreds of dot.coms went out of business, the Admins, programmers and web-designers all got axed.

      Most of the dot.coms had been delivering dynamic content which meant that FP and DW at the time were mostly NOT used. The smaller companies producing "brochure-ware" used such tools to create $500 static webpages.

      It would be logical to assume that the out of work "designers" moved on to another medium. But that would contradict your warped sense of reality.

      But please tell us all how difficult (X)HTML is and how one must have a deep understanding of such a simple markup language as well as it's "original intent."

      --
      ... Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed...
    18. Re:Lemme guess... by some+guy+I+know · · Score: 1

      What the f is up with people who hate flash and JS so much?

      There are several reasons:
      1. Bloated web pages over thin pipes.
      2. Flashy crap getting in the way of the information.
      3. Security holes that seem to pop up every other month or so.

      --
      Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
    19. Re:Lemme guess... by HelpfulPete · · Score: 1

      1. used properly, vector graphics enable you to create images in a few kb that would take mb of gifs

      2. yes, the entire web should be black times new roman on #cccccc backgrounds

      3. umm, more like every year or so, unlike the browsers which are more like every week anyway

      so flash gets misused...you sound like one of those ban-the-guns people who never considered that murderous psychos could give a shit about the law anyway

      --
      "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top. " - Edward Abbey
    20. Re:Lemme guess... by some+guy+I+know · · Score: 1

      1. SVG can do the same, without scripting.
      2. I didn't write that. Don't put words in my keyboard.
      3. Many of the exploits that I have read about do not work if scripting is turned off.

      I am not a "ban-the-guns"-type person.

      Just because I don't like something, doesn't mean that I think that it should be banned.

      If you want to put JS or Flash on your site, you have a right to, but if I can't navigate such a site with my current browser settings, I have a right to leave it, or not to visit it in the first place.
      And if you are running a commercial site, be aware that you are losing a potential customer.

      For the record, I don't use guns, either, but I believe that any responsible person has a right to own them.
      (Similarly for drugs, etc.)

      --
      Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
    21. Re:Lemme guess... by RedWolves2 · · Score: 2

      They should segragate trolls from non-trolls.

    22. Re:Lemme guess... by dpt · · Score: 1

      When the bubble burst and hyndreds of dot.coms went out of business, the Admins, programmers and web-designers all got axed

      Really? No programmers I know did. But we are all working for real companies. Not stupid shit like dynomall.com.

      An "internet shopping community" is the very definition of lame dotcom, by the way. You could of at least had an original thought.

      But please tell us all how difficult (X)HTML is and how one must have a deep understanding of such a simple markup language as well as it's "original intent."

      Looking at your sites, it's all clearly too much for you. Free clue: don't use tables to do layout.

  2. Bookpool cheaper by draed · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Bookpool : $32.50

    bookpool almost always has the cheapest programming books.

  3. Finally getting attention! by mong · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is a book I think I'll be ordering as soon as my next personal budget is approved. In fact, I think the boss will order it anyway.

    We take this so seriously that we've now hired a blind guy, to ensure that all of our sites are accesible. It's quite amazing what I'd discovered within a month of working alongside him! I've been developing/designing for years now, and thought I was pretty good at alting my tags and commenting my forms... But he's really opened my eyes to how a few simple and quick practices can be adopted to make a BIG difference.

    So I recommend books of this ilk (I've not read this one yet obviously). You really can't afford to ignore these matters anymore. Even if just to find out about blindness accessiblity... generally though, Nielsen is right; most sites have significant failings in these areas.

    Buy it :-)

    M.

    --

    *...Slacker, Artist, Techie - Geek *
    Remember: Nothing is Cool.
    1. Re:Finally getting attention! by mong · · Score: 5, Informative

      I forgot to mention of course that in many EU countries, certain bodies (governement, education, , vendors, larger companies et al) MUST make at least the core functionality of their sites accessible to people with sensory disabilities. I'm not sure what the exact laws are, but if you develop for any of the above, and you don't do it right, you could end up in a lot of trouble!

      Slashdot would *just* pass the basic test, I'm informed :-)

      M.

      --

      *...Slacker, Artist, Techie - Geek *
      Remember: Nothing is Cool.
    2. Re:Finally getting attention! by dubiousmike · · Score: 2

      "You really can't afford to ignore these matters anymore."

      I also can't afford to hire a blind guy at my work. But hopefully the book will cover most of the bases.

    3. Re:Finally getting attention! by Isofarro · · Score: 2
      I also can't afford to hire a blind guy at my work


      The RNIB accessibility package apparently has a blindfold as one of its contents. Just load up a speech browser, switch off the monitors, put on the blindfold and talk back to your browser.
    4. Re:Finally getting attention! by theLOUDroom · · Score: 1

      Any quick tips?
      I run a course website or two on basically no budget.
      I was just thinking about all this yesterday so I made sure all my pages were valid HTML and all the images had alt tags. Any quick tips? (The site has no forms)

      --
      Life is too short to proofread.
  4. Why buy the book... by v4mpyr · · Score: 5, Informative

    when you can check your site for these guidelines on the web here?

    1. Re:Why buy the book... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Bobby does not like Slashdot.org!



      Slashdot massively fails the Bobby Test. Hope you are proud of yourself Taco.

    2. Re:Why buy the book... by cheezycrust · · Score: 5, Informative

      Why read the HTML 4 specs when you can validate your page?

      --
      Teenagers these days don't have as much sex as they want each other to think they do.
    3. Re:Why buy the book... by v4mpyr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Exactly! I, like most people, learn by doing, not by simply reading a book. Bobby is nice because it not only tells you exactly what is "wrong" but also gives informative explanations as to why it is wrong and how to go about fixing it.

      Can't get interactive help like that from a book. :)

    4. Re:Why buy the book... by cheezycrust · · Score: 1

      Er... I was trying to be ironic...

      I prefer to do both - learn a bit, then check what I created. You can't just start on a page without knowing your possibilities (what tags exist, how they work in other browsers), and you'll save yourself a lot of trouble in the long run. I can validate (X)HTML pages by myself now, so I eliminate most errors.

      --
      Teenagers these days don't have as much sex as they want each other to think they do.
    5. Re:Why buy the book... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Much to the shame of Trolls everywhere, the beloved Goatse Man also fails miserably. See his shame for yourself: (Yes, this is a Goatse.cx Link!)

      The Shame Of Goatse Man.

    6. Re:Why buy the book... by BrianH · · Score: 4, Informative

      First, let me state that as an educational web software developer, accessiblility is half my job.

      The problem with tools like Bobby is that they only address half the issue, things like ALT tags, commenting, etc. What Bobby does NOT do well is address "readability" issues. While implementing CSS, using ALT Tags, formatting forms, and commenting your pages are nice, a poor layout can make the page completely unreadable to a blind user. I couldn't tell you how many pages I've seen that "passed" their Bobby checks, but were totally unuseable by screen readers because of poor table and content layouts. Instead of using Bobby, try this one on your next page: Download a copy of JAWS or the IBM Homepage Reader, put on a blindfold, and try to surf your website by ear. If you have designed your website well, you should have no problems. If the reader makes no sense, then your site is NOT accessible...whether or not Bobby likes it.

      --

      There is nothing so pathetic as seeing a beautiful young theory roughed up by a tough gang of facts.
    7. Re:Why buy the book... by Isofarro · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Why buy the book...


      I've been reading the book off and on over the last two months. There's a lot of useful material in the book that guidelines don't cover, like legal precedents and tackling some of the myths raised against accessibility. Its practical in some aspects too and complements, not replaces, guidlines such as WCAG and RNIB.
    8. Re:Why buy the book... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice informative post. By chance can you recommed a similar product that is free? I would like to test my pages but I am not prepared to pay for the software to do so.

    9. Re:Why buy the book... by br0ck · · Score: 1

      Is the Bobby Test even usable? I couldn't find a single site, besides Bobby, that passes. I tried Google, the W3C validator, American Council for the Blind, and the National Federation for the Blind. As long as I'm complaining, wouldn't Bobby me more accessible if the reports had some coherent means of navigating to other parts of the site?

    10. Re:Why buy the book... by yukster · · Score: 1

      Har Har... Bobby doesn't pass the Bobby test!!

      check it out...

    11. Re:Why buy the book... by zoombat · · Score: 2

      For some free options, the IBM Home Page Reader has a free 30 day trial. Also, there's the Speakup Project which works for linux; I'm not sure how it works for web browsers... There's also BLYNX, and many others you should be able to find with google.

    12. Re:Why buy the book... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Hella yes. Don't expect computers to understand context or if a sentence is sanely worded and these qualities can also make a page incomprehensible.

      Online accessibility validators don't point out their shortcomings, and I'm just an animal!

    13. Re:Why buy the book... by indiechild · · Score: 1

      Trial versions don't count as free :(

      I've been looking for a free page reader for ages in order to test my webpages... but haven't been able to find any :(

    14. Re:Why buy the book... by Denny · · Score: 1

      The following quote appears above each list of items on that page:

      > Even if your page does conform to these
      > guidelines they appear in the report.

      That's why I don't use Bobby, it's totally pointless. Accessibility is judged on subjective criteria, it can't be judged by a script - recognising that, all Bobby does is fail you for trivia (no ALT tag, etc), and then PROMPT you to check the more involved items...

      If you fail on ALT tags, you don't care enough to even bother using Bobby, at a guess...

      Regards,
      Denny

      --
      Police State UK - news and
  5. Re:Don't click on Slashdots book link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bookpool is even cheaper

  6. crazy laws by tmark · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Some of the laws that are emerging to regulate accessibility look positively scary

    These laws are not only scary, they are crazy. If serving people with disabilities is so important, then I'll do it, because it makes financial sense for me to do so. But if these people are largely irrelevant to my target market (say, I run a website for bird-watchers or target-shooting enthusiasts - should I be obligated to put up a version readable by vision-impaired people ?), I should have the right to ignore this segment of the market - at my own peril, of course.

    If they're going to legislate me into putting in 'assistive technology' into my websites, why don't they force magazines to put out Braille versions, or make them supply audio-cassettes or CDs with the contents transcribed ? Why don't they widen airplane and car and bus seats so morbidly obese people can sit in them ?

    1. Re:crazy laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The answer is obvious: FREEDOM
      Ever since the time when---legally at least (if
      not in actual practice)---we had some freedom,
      they have been trying to legislate it away, make
      it illegal. Who are THEY? YOU and ME, everytime
      one of us snivels about something we dont like
      and lend any support to a legal solution (i.e.,
      a coercive solution).

    2. Re:crazy laws by macdaddy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Or you're the DMV and you have a website dedicated to folks wanting to get their license. What about a website for people wanting to learn to fly? The ADA laws can't be applied to everyone, can it? It just doesn't make sense.

    3. Re:crazy laws by Masem · · Score: 5, Informative
      In general, it's very easy to create a site that is accessible from the start, and takes more work to make it inaccessible (eg, adding JS navigation).

      Adapting existing sites, on the other hand, can be troublesome. If the site was designed well from the start that certain elements are modulized, adaption to accessibity should be near trivial. However, those sites that build every page uniquely will have a much harder time of getting to the end goal of accessibility. Particularly for those sites that were build by WYSIWYG editors that do not account for accessibilty options (such as tag-soup output engines).

      But the key is here that there's two critical legal elements that will affect site accessibility in the States at least: Section 508 rules that apply to gov't sites and those that want to contract with it, and the potental requirement of accessibility to those commercial sites that may be covered by the ADA (see the recent stories on lawsuits against American and Southwest Airlines by blind users). Hobbists', non-commercial, or otherwise personal web sites have yet to be concerned for accessibility and I don't believe they ever will be, as these provide no required service to the general public.

      That's not to say that you shouldn't think about accessibility if you run that type of site. Accessibility is not only about making your site available to more people, but it's also about better web design in general; seperate presentation from content, don't treat the browser as a pixel-perfect rendering engine, and the like. A causal site design would certainly do no harm in converting an inaccessible site to one that is, and that could mean more visitors and also improving one's HTML/web page skills.

      --
      "Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
      "I can see my house from here!" - ST:
    4. Re:crazy laws by Planesdragon · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If they're going to legislate me into putting in 'assistive technology' into my websites, why don't they force magazines to put out Braille versions, or make them supply audio-cassettes or CDs with the contents transcribed ? Why don't they widen airplane and car and bus seats so morbidly obese people can sit in them ?

      IANAL, but...

      I believe that the standard for disability is something like "resonable effort for reasonable access." Things like ramps for stores, and magazines printing out braile versoins if they can afford to do so.

      Don't take my word for it, but if you get a complaint about someone wanting to force you to make brail-versions of your bird-watching website, check with a lawyer if you can't come to a compormise; I suspect that you'd be able to tell the angry blind man to go away if it requires unreasonable effort to accomodate their wishes.

    5. Re:crazy laws by pamar · · Score: 1

      These laws are not only scary, they are crazy. If serving people with disabilities is so important, then I'll do it, because it makes financial sense for me to do so. But if these people are largely irrelevant to my target market (say, I run a website for bird-watchers or target-shooting enthusiasts - should I be obligated to put up a version readable by vision-impaired people ?), I should have the right to ignore this segment of the market - at my own peril, of course.

      If they're going to legislate me into putting in 'assistive technology' into my websites, why don't they force magazines to put out Braille versions, or make them supply audio-cassettes or CDs with the contents transcribed ? Why don't they widen airplane and car and bus seats so morbidly obese people can sit in them ?
      Note that (at least from what I have seen here in Europe) the accessibility requirement is mandatory for public services sites only.
      You are not forced to support blind "customers", but if you are, say, the webmaster for some government site, you are required to assist blind "citizens" to know what laws apply to them, for example.

      I understand your position, but please do not equate citizens with customers.

    6. Re:crazy laws by vrmlguy · · Score: 5, Interesting
      I can't speak for every state (or country!), but in Missouri, the DMV handles not just licenses, but also ID cards for people who don't want or can't get a license. So, if you're blind, over 21, and want to buy a beer, you need to deal with the DMV.

      As for learning to fly, partial deafness is a disability that's covered by the ADA. If a learning-to-fly website had a lot of sound effects, it could make the site unusable to potential pilots.

      --
      Nothing for 6-digit uids?
    7. Re:crazy laws by henben · · Score: 5, Insightful
      If they're going to legislate me into putting in 'assistive technology' into my websites, why don't they force magazines to put out Braille versions, or make them supply audio-cassettes or CDs with the contents transcribed ? Why don't they widen airplane and car and bus seats so morbidly obese people can sit in them ?

      Because for Web technology, the extra costs of making your site accessible are trivial, and have lots of additional benefits, like making it accessible to sighted people browsing from PDAs, cellphones and WebTV.

    8. Re:crazy laws by vrmlguy · · Score: 5, Interesting
      There are many bird-watchers who are blind. How do they do it? They listen to the birds, identifying them by their songs. If you are a small publisher, then the laws will exempt you, but all it takes is one dissatisfied customer to poison your good-will.

      Many books and magazines are available on tape. I know, my wife is a reader for college textbooks. I also recall several years ago, someone sued to get Playboy on tape. He was blind and really did "just read it for the articles".

      --
      Nothing for 6-digit uids?
    9. Re:crazy laws by dnoyeb · · Score: 2

      And should you be allowed to choose who desires to read your website. Many people can be legally blind but Bird watchers. What about the people with the degenerative diseases? Who was a bird watcher all his life and contributed to the community all his life, but now he can't even read the website that quotes his work profusely.

      If given the choice, everyone will say they don't serve the blind simply because nobody is really targeting the blind for their produce unless its a specifically blind aide product...

    10. Re:crazy laws by kamasutra · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I spent seven months doing civil service for Slovenian association of blind people and it was a really eye-opening experience.

      First, and less important, bird watching and target-shooting are among hobbies of blind people. Yes, I was surprised to learn that too. Bad examples, but I know what you mean.

      Second, I do understand your point, but think about this from different perspective. There are around 7000 registered people who are either blind or visually impaired in Slovenia, which has a population of 2 million. How many would be willing to spend time and money to make sites accessible for them? I can even give you an answer to this, because lacking legislation that USA has in this regard, the answer is pretty much noone does.

      I believe it's important for society that nobody is a second class citizen. Sometimes this means that majority of us have to make some effort for that. And if sensibility of public is not enough, than it's good if there's at least legislation to push us all in the right direction.

    11. Re:crazy laws by MrAtoz · · Score: 2, Informative
      If they're going to legislate me into putting in 'assistive technology' into my websites, why don't they force magazines to put out Braille versions, or make them supply audio-cassettes or CDs with the contents transcribed ?

      Well, in a way "they" do. Under the US copyright law, publishers are required to allow agencies serving people with disabilities to produce accessible versions of their books without charging royalties. Thus, for example, organizations like Recording for the Blind & Dyslexic can freely produce audio textbooks for distribution to students with print disabilities.

      And there's more on the way. A bill has been introduced into congress (the Instructional Materials Accessibility Act) that will take this further, requiring textbook publishers to provide electronic text files in a uniform format for use by agencies that produce Braille and audio books for students with disabilities.

    12. Re:crazy laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      these crazy laws are in place to protect us from crazy people like you. you have no idea what handicapped people are capable of, which is the entire point of the law. imagine a mountain bike parts manufacturer thinking that blind people don't need access to his site. little does he know there are blind mountain bikers. there are also blind shooting clubs, and blind baseball leagues.

      people second guessing the limitations of the handicapped was the reason for the law. they're going to force you to stop.

    13. Re:crazy laws by tomhudson · · Score: 1
      Mind you, you might be interested in the edition of Playboy for the blind - the only problem is the stupid staples are STILL in the way!

      Note: since there are soooo many humor-impaired people out there, maybe we should have two versions of comments - one that's funny, and one that's not --- oops, they don't think that's funny, either.

    14. Re:crazy laws by MojoRising · · Score: 0


      Alright what about General Motors or any other Auto maker? Blind people can not legally drive so what need do they have for a car. Now if you tell me there is a blind driving club, great, let the blind driving club have an accessible website.

      Mojo

    15. Re:crazy laws by pere · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Making accessible websites is about a lot more than serving people with disabilities.

      Web-accessibility takes a lot of inspiration from whats called "universal design". (As opposed to "special sollutions" that tries to solve the problems for a specific group). The point of "universial design" is that you with very small means can make the world accessible to a lot more people, in different ages, with different abilities. Examples of "universal design" is wider doors, lower and bigger light switches, electrical doors, ramps, lower busses etc etc). Braille and wheelchair elevators are examples of "special sollutions" since they mainly helps those with that special disability.

      The really interesting part about "universal design" is that good designs often seems help a lot more people than originally intended. I saw a report one time (sorry, dont have exact reference) about who used wheelchair ramps. Actually just a few percent were wheelchair users. More than 95 percent were mothers with baby carriages, travellers with big suitcases, people making deliveries, roller scaters etc etc The point is: By making it accessible, you also help a lot of people that you usually does not consider diabled. THAT IS ALSO THE POINT WITH WEB-ACESSIBILITY.

      So why should you make your bird-watcher site accessible? (Even if you have the right not to do it). My answer is that you should do it without asking, because it takes you just a few minutes and because "you'll never know".

      I guess thats not the answer you are looking for, so Im going to give you some other reasons (Note that this is not a complete list. The point with accessibel design is that you plan for situations you cant predict):
      * Mobile users. A real bird watcher site should be availiable from the field. You should anticipate that some of you power users accessing the site using a Nokia 9210 Communicator, or maybe even a 3510i or maybe even a newer model. If you follow the w3c accessibily guidelines your site will be readeable. If you dont think about accessibilty, and choose to design for the most common browser, you fail to serve your customers when they really need you.
      * Search engines, robots etc. A very important part of web-accessibility is making all information availiable textual (not using only images for important information). That also ensures that the search enignes can index everything on your site.
      * Slow connections. If you have a picture heavy site, some of your users, might choose to turn off images. For instance just turning it on when they have found the image of the bird they are looking for. By making the site accessibel, you have made sure that this is possible.
      * Temporarily disabled users. One of your bird watchers might have fallen down from a tree. Spending lots and lots of time in his hospital bed surfing the web using a voice controlled system. Have you made your system generally accessibel, he will be able to do that.

      I could come up with lots of examples. The point is: You'll never know.

      Of course you should have the right to ignore this segment of the marked. Chances are however that using just a few minutes making the site accessibel will be worth it.

    16. Re:crazy laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      maybe a blind pedestrian gets hit and crippled while crossing the street. the cop tells her she was hit by a chevy monte carlo. she logs onto the chevy web site to read how big this car that hit her is, and she can't, because blind people don't drive.

      i could do this all day.

    17. Re:crazy laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must be an American. Americans always boil everything down to how much it costs. Thats why the world loves you and your SUVs so much.

    18. Re:crazy laws by jsac · · Score: 2, Interesting

      One reason is that you never know when your site might be interesting to a blind person. Just look at one of your well-thought-out examples: bird watching. I have a friend who's an avid birder, and from listening to him I'd guess he gets 30% to 50% of his birds by ear. He buys CDs with birdsongs on them to practice. So, your example is poorly-chosen -- but you didn't know that, did you? If your website were accessible it wouldn't matter.

      The fact of the matter is that from a pure dollar-value point of view, it will almost never make sense to make your website accessible, because blind people are such a small proportion of the population. That's the beauty of government. It gives that small minority bargaining power against the invisible hand. Essentially, when Congress passes a website accessibility law, it's the People of the United States telling you that it's important to serve the disadvantaged. (I realize that Congress is increasingly more subservient to corporate interests, but it hardly seems that the Americans with Disabilities Act is in the interest of our corporate masters, which is why I feel confident attributing it to the People of the United States for once).

      --
      "The urge to fly from modern systems, instead of moving through them to even greater, fairer things is, I think, an indi
    19. Re:crazy laws by MojoRising · · Score: 0


      She can call up the nearest dealer and ask how much the Monte Carlo weighs, or her lawyer can. This has nothing to do with selling cars.

      Mojo

    20. Re:crazy laws by lunaboy · · Score: 1

      These laws are not only scary, they are crazy.

      And crazy laws won't hold up very long. The web is not a US controlled and distributed medium. When you create a website, you're not publishing and distributing it specifically for the US.

      In addition, the government hasn't made these kinds of regulations for all other types of media, why do it for the internet? What about newspapers, TV, magazines, instruction manuals for the products you buy, vending machines, price tags in stores, radio, etc etc etc

      This kind of thing can't be regulated in a rational manner, therefore these laws will never hold water.

    21. Re:crazy laws by autocracy · · Score: 3, Funny
      I spent seven months doing civil service for Slovenian association of blind people and it was a really eye-opening experience.
      Man, you're cruel. That pun is just so wrong...
      --
      SIG: HUP
    22. Re:crazy laws by gmhowell · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      If letting a bunch of niggers eat in my diner is important, I'll do it.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
    23. Re:crazy laws by rudedog · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In general, serving people with disabilities rarely makes financial sense, because the market is too small and their financial clout is too limited. Businesses that ignore the disabled market are not doing so "at their peril" - nobody will ever notice or care, other than the disable people and they simply don't have a very loud voice.

      The laws are there because our society deems it important to integrate the disabled into society at large, and society can't rely on businesses to do it when it makes no business sense to do so.

      As for your strawman examples of bird-watchers and target-shooters, if you didn't make those sites accessible to the blind, nobody would likely care. The laws are there to give a disabled person recourse if he wants to access a certain resource and he can't. Contrary to what the libertarian/right wing says, there simply isn't an army of blind people going around harassing "inaccessible" businesses.

    24. Re:crazy laws by tshak · · Score: 2

      I also recall several years ago, someone sued to get Playboy on tape.

      I think this is absolutely rediculous. Why would I, a person who can not see, insist on resorting to a medium that does not naturally accomodate my disability. I really hope that Playboy won the case. Blind people can't read magazines, and Deaf people can't listen to music. I'm all for adding accessibility to public places, but I liken this to suing a car company for not making a blind-friendly user interface.

      --

      There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
    25. Re:crazy laws by kamasutra · · Score: 1

      Sorry about that. This happens if you speak in a language that you don't know all that well.

    26. Re:crazy laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The fact that a law exists makes it possible for blind and otherwise handicapped people to be substantially more productive, which in turn increases their power and attractiveness as a market.

      Discuss.

    27. Re:crazy laws by macdaddy · · Score: 2
      That's a good point. If the DMV handles official ID for people, there would be a reason to have it accessible to diabled persons, assuming the website contains info about the general IDs.

      Good point on the flying too. ADA covers more than I remembered. There's got to be a better solution to the problem than more laws.

    28. Re:crazy laws by mill · · Score: 1

      Target market? Lets say you have a great interest in target-shooting and read articles on the www every day. Unfortunately you get hit by a car and end up visually impaired or even blind. Would you lose your great interest too? Wouldn't that be one of highlights of your life while you are learning how to live with your disabilities?

      You don't know what your target market is.

      Making accessible websites cost far less than what is wasted by "webdesigners" on perverting HTML and the legislation is for govt and those doing business with them.

      Good thing you you are up front with this so I can avoid your websites though.

    29. Re:crazy laws by Sodium+Attack · · Score: 2

      Because for Web technology, the extra costs of making your site accessible are trivial, and have lots of additional benefits, like making it accessible to sighted people browsing from PDAs, cellphones and WebTV.

      That's a very good answer to the question, "why should I make my website accessible?"

      Unfortunately, that's not the question tmark was asking, which is "why should the government force me to make my website accessible?"

      --

      Never take moderation advice from sigs, including this one.

    30. Re:crazy laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you're right. why don't you fucking disconnect your internet feed right now and just use the phone instead.

      idiot.

    31. Re:crazy laws by Isofarro · · Score: 2
      The web is not a US controlled and distributed medium. When you create a website, you're not publishing and distributing it specifically for the US.


      Irrelevant really. This push toward accessibility isn't limited to the US. Most European countries are moving in the same direction, so to is New Zealand, all chasing the pace set by Australia.

      In addition, the government hasn't made these kinds of regulations for all other types of media, why do it for the internet?


      Because the World Wide Web isn't limited in rigid ways like the print industry. A correctly authored html document is just as accessible visually as aurally - you cannot say the same about a printed book.
    32. Re:crazy laws by henben · · Score: 2
      OK, what I should have said is: In the non-Web examples, the costs imposed on businesses are arguably too great to justify government compulsion to do those things, although they'd be desirable in principle.

      On the Web, the costs of accessibility are so low that the government can justifiably compel firms to do it.

    33. Re:crazy laws by DrewK · · Score: 1

      If you run a brick and mortar target shooting or bird watching supply store, you are required to have accessible facilties for your customers. Your restroom must be of a certain size to allow wheelchair access etc. Why should your business be exempt from accessibilty requirements and costs when other businesses aren't?

    34. Re:crazy laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are many bird-watchers who are blind. How do they do it? They listen to the birds, identifying them by their songs

      Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that make the blind person a bird listener? Just a thought.

    35. Re:crazy laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Because for Web technology, the extra costs of making your site accessible are trivial, and have lots of additional benefits, like making it accessible to sighted people browsing from PDAs, cellphones and WebTV.

      Legislating one to make sites accessible to those with disabilities can cost out the yang. Maybe converting your blog about what you've watched on tv this month is simple, there's nothing riding on it so it doesn't matter.

      Try building something of leviathon proportion for a Fortune 50 company that was cutting edge even 2 years ago with full-on dynamic features 100% compatible between just IE4+ and NN4.7x+ and then make it accessible. Get a clue.

      If I want my content to be accessible to their devices I'll decide to make it accessible. If I don't want to sell you lemonade I can say no.

      Just sit back and let them decide everything for you. Have some soma and watch the WB, where the important stuff really happens. Schmuck.

      -AC

    36. Re:crazy laws by Giraldus · · Score: 1

      good points. Another point that has been missed so far, is that your blind guy doesn't live in a vacuum. Presumably, he has friends, family, etc. some of whom might be interested in bird watching as well, and by making your bird watching web site unnaccessible, you are potentially antagonizing this whole bunch of people as well. Even if not antagonized, this whole bunch of people will prefer an accessible site to yours, in order to share the fun with their friend.

    37. Re:crazy laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Title III of the Americans with Disabilities Act requires public accommodations to make their services accessible to people with disabilities. This includes both "readily achievable barrier removal" and "effective communication" to people with disabilities.

      This means that under Title III, magazines DO have to provide materials in alternate format and restaurants NEED to have menus on audio cassette or a staff person ready to read the menu upon request. Any services provided by a "public accommodation" need to be accessible to people with disabilities.

      Obesity, by the way, has an unclear status under the ADA and often does not qualify as a disability. Airplane access is covered under the "Air Carrier Access Act" and not the ADA.

      Take a look at this article that just came out today - a federal judge ruling against the Metropolitan Atlanta Rapid Transit Authority requiring the website to be accessible to people with disabilities. Citizens depend upon this information and just as someone in a wheelchair shouldn't be denied from accessing a public place or a place of business, people with disabilities should not be limited from using the web.

      Essentially, the ADA is more loosely applied to the internet than to physical buildings, programs and services. The tightening up in inevitable as the internet becomes more pervasive in society, and this is hardly a bad thing. Most people who live long enough are likely to develop one or more disabilities; it is a shame that some people cannot see the importance of universal access until it becomes a personal issue.

    38. Re:crazy laws by indiechild · · Score: 1

      I'm sure someone somewhere out there has probably made braille pr0n before...

    39. Re:crazy laws by program21 · · Score: 1
      How big an audience can the "now-visually-impaired-but-once-target-shooters" be?
      Don't get me wrong, you make a perfectly valid point about not knowing your target audience, but most of the examples I've seen posted (I chose yours to reply to) end up with a rather limited scope for the unexpected users they cite.

      That said, I do support people making their sites accessible to the visually impaired, but we do need to stop and consider the feelings of the majority of the target audience. Supposing the target-shooting site has a very neat dynamic menu system (hypothetically) and a lot of content that gets neatly organized under these menus, and is difficult to sort any other way. Is it worth inconviencing (my guess, which is nothing more than a complete stab in the dark) 90+% of the target audience for the convience of a few visually impaired users?
      One thing that turns people away from sites is poor navigation, this holds true for everyone, disabled or not (it's their client's interpretation that affects their perception). Granted, I'm sure that most sites could have their navigation tweaked to be mostly usable by everyone, but in many cases it's not really worth the effort (in the minds of the webmasters).

      That said, I would be very upset/disappointed/pissed if I were ever in an accident where I lost my sight, and would love to see more people create accessible sites.

      --
      This has been a test. Had this been a real emergency, we would have fled in terror and you would not have been informed.
    40. Re:crazy laws by ray-auch · · Score: 1

      Delivery might not cost any more, but for most web sites the cost of development dwarfs the cost of delivery.

      The costs of converting existing sites will clearly not be zero. Even for new sites designed from the start with accessibility in mind you may well have to retrain existing designers, buy new design tools, new testing tools, add new tests to your approvals process. All costs.

    41. Re:crazy laws by Gumber · · Score: 2

      You think small.

      A site that is accessible to the blind is also accessible to someone over the phone, or perhaps someone stuck in traffic.

    42. Re:crazy laws by orim · · Score: 1

      "Why don't they widen airplane and car and bus seats so morbidly obese people can sit in them?"

      Because the morbidly obese can always just buy two seats instead of one and spread their fat cheeks across both.

      --
      "If you could only see what I've seen with your eyes..." - Roy Batty
  7. This book will be very good! by Kyundrion · · Score: 2, Interesting

    My dad has a good friend that has some sort of degenerative disease that makes his fingers and toes decay, and also makes his vision fade very quickly. A book like this will help people to write websites that he can access too. He has a screen reading device that reads the screen to him, and he also has a small touch pad that he enters morse code to enter keystrokes. He can "type" almost as fast as some non-afflicted people that I know! But, anyways, I think that this book will be very good for any webdesigner out there that is willing to look out for people like him.

    1. Re:This book will be very good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Degenerative disease that makes his fingers and toes decay? That's generally what we here in the 21st century call leprosy!

      Make sure he doesn't fall asleep on any tennis rackets, or he'll slip right through it! Also avoid hammocks and hard to see security doors.

  8. HTML 5 by Trusty+Penfold · · Score: 1


    I think that there are some new accessibility standards in HTML 5. Mozilla should support them quite quickly once the standard is released - I hope it is soon.

    1. Re:HTML 5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you mean XHTML?

    2. Re:HTML 5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's HTML 5?

    3. Re:HTML 5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm pretty certain that HTML 5 will never be seen - XHTML is possibly what you're refering to? I'm not quite sure, but wasn't HTML 5 a mostly vapour progression from HTML 4?

      http://www.w3c.org/MarkUp/

      I could be totally wrong, as I've not really kept up to date for a while.

      M.

    4. Re:HTML 5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There will be no HTML 5. It ended with 4.01 and everything coming now will be based on xHTML.

    5. Re:HTML 5 by CableModemSniper · · Score: 1

      Do not try to write markup in HTML 5. That is unpossible. Instead, think of the greater unreality. There is no HTML 5.

      --
      Why not fork?
  9. Does anyone else have a problem with this???? by mustangdavis · · Score: 3, Insightful
    The last actual chapter, Chapter 13, is a more in-depth look at U.S. web accessibility law. This was another one that I skimmed but one section did catch my eye. There is a discussion that raises the scary idea that web developers may be held liable for inaccessible web sites, even if their client told them to ignore the issue. If this is true, then it is an important point for every web developer to consider -- could you be held liable?


    Don't get me wrong, I think that web sites should be made to be accessible to everyone ... but being FORCED to make them accessible!! Isn't that going a little too far?? ... especially if a web developer is held liable even though his client said not to worry about it???!!??

    Again, I don't want to sound like a big jerk here, but where does freedom of expression and freesom to create come into play here? If a person wants a "cool" looking web site, and uses features that don't follow the "code" ... or if they don't want ugly alt tags popping up all over their site when people put the mouse over a pic .. that should be their right!

    However, since I am a web developer, maybe I should pick up a copy of this book to keep up on the laws on this issue .... (but I'll allow the review of this book determine if I purchase THIS book)

    Are there any other good books out there that have similar content?? - anyone???

    1. Re:Does anyone else have a problem with this???? by stratjakt · · Score: 5, Informative

      Nope, you miss the point.

      This isnt about your personal website, this isnt about your blog, or your Sailor Moon fan fiction.

      The key here is if you run a venture that is designed as a place of *public accomadation*, then it must be accessable to all the *public*. That's the key word.

      If you sell products or offer services, everyone needs to be able to access those products or services.

      Ie; there's no law saying you need a wheelchair ramp on your home. If you run a restaurant, hotel, or other place of public accomodation, then there is.

      The same rules about accessability coincide with good web design for the most part. Don't scan your paper catalog and serve a bunch of jpg files. Dont force people to chase down one of those stupid javascript adverts that blocks the page until you answer its poll, etc.

      --
      I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
    2. Re:Does anyone else have a problem with this???? by henben · · Score: 2, Insightful
      don't want ugly alt tags popping up

      Oh, come on. If this really bothered people, wouldn't browsers provide an option to disable it? How much time does the typical user spend mousing over non-navigation images anyway? This is exactly the sort of non-objection that creates the need for legislation.

    3. Re:Does anyone else have a problem with this???? by sverdlichenko · · Score: 1

      The key here is if you run a venture that is designed as a place of *public accomadation*, then it must be accessable to all the *public*. That's the key word.

      And what about those people who can't read? Should someone care about them too or they are less important than blinds?

      <i>Ie; there's no law saying you need a wheelchair ramp on your home. If you run a restaurant, hotel, or other place of public accomodation, then there is.</i>

      And one strip show in LasVegas was closed for not having ramp <b>for dancers</b>. Isn't it a little too much for "equal rights for everyone"?

    4. Re:Does anyone else have a problem with this???? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Welcome to the United States. Here, there are thousands of things that businesses are required to do in order to operate. Don't like it? Go somewhere else, because our society is founded on ideals that include providing services to people who would not have the pure economic clout to get the change. Ideals of fairness and equality.

      BTW, although I have seen the comment, "Governments have to treat everyone equally" all over slashdot, it is not true. Governments can treat dentists in Maine better - or worse - than everyone else, as long as "Dentists in Maine" is not a legally protected catagory. Some examples of protected catagories include the disabled, national origin, gender, race, religion. We do this because we want to live in a society where black people are not barred from Universities, blind people have reasonable access to facilities that hold themselves as "public accomodations." Things like movie theaters, schools, and restaurants. If you want - you can argue about how the government provides that access - but the fact that such access will be provided is part of what the United States. Little things like the Civil Rights movement, the Civil War etc. might tip you off.

      No one knows whether a website is a public accomodation - no court has ruled on the issue, and they were not explicitly mentioned in the text of the ADA. If reasonable access required a complete redisign of every page, and barred the use of flash - probably not. Since, apparantly, it only really requires the use of alt tags and a few other minor changes - I believe courts will say it is. Not for a while, because the trivial cost of adding alt tags, or requiring your design firm to do so, is orders of magnitude less than the cost of litigating the issue all the way up to the Supreme Court. So it will be difficult to find a defendant willing to pay the cost of defending it that far, probably losing at every level.

      What does this mean to you? For your personal websites - nothing. For your clients? Include alt tags and make the other changes. Alt tags alone would probably be enough. Run your sites through Bobby and see what happens. Add alt tags as you go - and it won't take much time. Why should you do it? Because when someone sues the company whose website you designed that, courts later found, violated the ADA - the company will point to the phrase in the contract that said that you would comply with federal law when you sold them the website. And unless you have an email that explicitly says the company does not want you to put in alt tags and the other features that would make it accessible - they will implead (read: drag you kicking and screaming) into the case - not because you can pay - but because they won't have to if they can establish that it was your screw-up, not theirs, that caused them to violate the ADA. Not all of this is aimed at you, mustangdavis, but at people who have argued differently in other threads.

      Tor

    5. Re:Does anyone else have a problem with this???? by jonadab · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > If a person wants a "cool" looking web site, and uses features
      > that don't follow the "code" ...

      You clearly don't understand web technologies. The whole point
      of using a markup language (such as SGML or XML) with separate
      style information (CSS) is so that you can make the site _look_
      however you want it to look, without butchering the content in
      the process. It's not even that hard. You just write according
      to the specs mostly, and then work around a small handful of
      browser layout bugs. (So far, I've discovered one significant
      layout issue in Gecko and two in IE6; that's three. If I did
      web design for a living I'd probably have discovered a couple
      more, but really the major browsers these days _mostly_ follow
      the specs.)

      > or if they don't want ugly alt tags popping up

      Alt text doesn't pop up unless you use an ancient browser from
      the days of yore. The relevant standards clearly indicate that
      it should not, and I only know about one browser released in
      the last two years that violates this, and it's still claiming
      compatibility with Mozilla 4 (which was obsolete quite long ago),
      so it really can't be considered a modern browser. If you happen
      to _want_ tooltips, there are some provisions for that, but they
      are totally separate from alternate text.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    6. Re:Does anyone else have a problem with this???? by Theom · · Score: 1

      Can you learn to see?

      --

      mp3: l33t term for empty.
    7. Re:Does anyone else have a problem with this???? by Transient0 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      -- The key here is if you run a venture that
      -- is designed as a place of *public
      -- accomadation*, then it must be accessable
      -- to all the *public*. That's the key word.

      -And what about those people who can't read?
      -Should someone care about them too or they
      -are less important than blinds?

      I understand that you are making a joke here, but you hit upon an important point and the fact that your extreme example is a real concern should be a hint that maybe you can't just dismiss accessibility issues with a reductio ad absurdum.

      Many people who cannot read or experience difficulty reading do so because of a learning disability such as dyslexia. The ADA also deals with people with learning disabilities and designing a site to conform to section 508 or the W3Cs Web Accessibility Initiative will ensure that your site is accessible to those people who cannot read as well. How? Through a screen-reader, the exact same device that someone who is blind would use.

      Also, making your site accessible will make it available to people who do not speak the language in which it was written because a site that is accessible is a site that can be fed to the Fish.

      The point is that many more people than you might think use assistive technology and the minimal effort required to make a website accessibile is rewarded many times over in terms of ease of use.

    8. Re:Does anyone else have a problem with this???? by stratjakt · · Score: 2

      Can lawyers abuse laws that are meant to do good? Absolutely.

      Does that mean the intent of the law was wrong? Not at all.

      Sure, there's always going to be some litigious jerk looking for a payday. That's a separate issue, you shouldn't be confusing the two.

      --
      I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
    9. Re:Does anyone else have a problem with this???? by Isofarro · · Score: 2
      And what about those people who can't read? Should someone care about them too or they are less important than blinds?


      Consider what's required to read. Consider what a speech browser does. Consider that the ability to read isn't required when listening.
    10. Re:Does anyone else have a problem with this???? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Santa Monica, CA, some people are lobbying to make it a law so when private citizens remodel their homes they must bring their houses up to ADA compliance.

    11. Re:Does anyone else have a problem with this???? by chanceH · · Score: 1

      Does that mean the intent of the law was wrong? Not at all.

      is this law a ridiculous intrustion private property? Absolutely.

      Is it completeley beyond the enumerated powers of congress? Yes.

      Is it so broad so that many decent, moral people can never be sure they aren't a 'criminal'? Yes.

      Will it be selectively and creatively enforced? You bet.

      Does it take decision making power out of the realm of voluntary interaction, and place it into the real of itigious jerk's who get backed up by guys with guns? Sure Does.

      Sounds like a bad law to me.

    12. Re:Does anyone else have a problem with this???? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hope you are happy when the totalitarian goverment you are are advocating shows up. My society is not founded on any ideal involving you telling me what to do at gunpoint.

      Any of your so called ideals of fairness and equality that are based on special 'protected groups' is a farce. Its a mob.Your ideas of 'equality and fairness' are Orwellian newspeak versions of the real thing. War is Peace. Freedom is slavery. Apartheid is equality.

      You are whats wrong with this country.
      Why don't you 'Go somwehere else', you heel clickin moron.

    13. Re:Does anyone else have a problem with this???? by mino · · Score: 1
      Oh, come on. If this really bothered people, wouldn't browsers provide an option to disable it?

      Yeah, like, say: alt="some relevant text" title="", like all even vaguely-recent browsers, even those which show ALT attributes on mouseovers even though they aren't supposed to, support?

      Hypothetically.

  10. Never understood until... by FreshMeat-BWG · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I never understood this until I started using my television as a computer monitor. Even set at 640x480 with large fonts, so many web sites were still illegible thanks to hard coded font sizes, tiny images with no alt text, etc.

    You can't really have an appreciation for accessibility until you need it. It is a good lesson for everyone designing web sites to really try to use them with their monitor turned off and with speech software or on a television screen from across the room.

    If anyone cares about your website, then the content matters as much or more than how it looks on your monitor. Well, I guess except for pr0n.

    1. Re:Never understood until... by KjetilK · · Score: 2
      That's a very important point!

      I think it was a very severe mistake by the W3C WAI to say that accessibility is an issue only for those with disabilities. Gigadollars really doesn't matter a lot if they're not among your target audience anyway.

      However, what does matter, is that if I want to use a TV to read your web page, then the web designer is stupid if he does not allow me to. If I want to use a cell phone, he should allow me to do that too. If I want to sit back comfortably and use an 18 pt font, he should allow me to do that as well (I happen to do exactly that, and you can't imagine how many sites doesn't like me to do that).

      The problem is that many, if not most, web designers think that they know better than I, what I find appealing. Accessibility is a lot about leaving to me to decide what I find appealing. That might be a concern for the big masses of web users, if they ever had the choice. Most don't even know what they're missing. I'd like that choice.

      On a related note, see my User Empowering Browser idea on ShouldExist.

      --
      Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
  11. Jumping Ahead by oddRaisin · · Score: 5, Insightful
    It would be nice if the web were accessible to people using non-standard browsers in general. The number of Windows IE specific sites ( the Mac version of IE doesn't seem to be compatible ) out there, especially for major vendors, is sickening.

    So instead of focusing on making the web accessible for people using alternate access methods, we should settle on a web standard. It would make the alternate methods that much easier to implement.

    1. Re:Jumping Ahead by aridhol · · Score: 2

      You mean like the W3C HTML standards

      --
      I can't say that I don't give a fuck. I've just run out of fuck to give.
    2. Re:Jumping Ahead by ray-auch · · Score: 1

      No, the aim should be to make the web accessible to people using standard browsers, not non-standard. The standards already exist, and so do browsers that support them - web sites written for non-standard browsers are the problem not the solution.

  12. Don't click on RedWolves2 book link by theduck · · Score: 3, Informative

    Other vendors typically have it for less than Amazon. Go to Dealtime and use their book price comparison engine to get the best price. In this case, they report that Walmart has it for $31.49. And if you provide your zip code, they can compare prices including shipping.

    And, of course, there's always half.com for used books.

    --
    How can we afford to ever sleep
    So sound again
    --ebtg
  13. We don't nee more legislation by macdaddy · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I don't intend to sound cruel to folks that are disabled. I feel for them, really I do. However I don't believe the way to convince webmasters to design universally accesible web pages is more draconian laws. We might as well put authors and publishers in jail for not printing their books in every possible language. Our webmaster is having a horrible time designing a Unv website that complies with the ADA requirements. It's truely a nightmare. Now privately held companies are being sued because someone can't visit their website? This is not right.

    I think the way to go about writing univerally readable pages is to incorporate it into W3C HTML specs. I'm not saying eliminating all the things that aren't ADA compliant like javascript and tables. I talking about bringing the standard up to speed and making sure all browsers adhere to it strictly. If all browsers adhere to the standards very strictly then no non-compliant pages can be viewed with them. There's the incentive for webmasters to stick to the standards. Why are standards such an important thing? If everyone adhered to the standards, it would be infinitely easier to build tools for people with disabilities. Audio readers could parse the pages and read them back in an easy to understand way. ADA people could do what they need/want to do without pushing draconian requirements on to the rest of us.

    Like I said before, I don't mean to sound like a hardass. I just don't see how the needs of the few could justify draconian legislation. If we could adhere to a standard, it would make things easier for everyone, not just handicap persons.

    1. Re:We don't nee more legislation by aridhol · · Score: 3, Informative
      I think the way to go about writing univerally readable pages is to incorporate it into W3C HTML specs
      Although it isn't part of the HTML specs, the W3C does address the issue.
      --
      I can't say that I don't give a fuck. I've just run out of fuck to give.
    2. Re:We don't nee more legislation by A.Soze · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think that a lot of people are missing the point made here. It is not private web designers that would be liable, nor would the companies who employ them. The standard, as it is now, just makes it mandatory for companies who wish to deal with the US government in their business. Following their own lead, as it were.

      I wholeheartedly agree with the assessment that if all browsers followed standards, this wouldn't be as big an issue. And as for the ADA standards for web pages, I think you may be misinformed. Tables and scripting are not against ADA. The ADA simply lays down how these tools can be effectively used while not hamstringing screen readers and the like. For example, a table can be perfectly readable if you add an 'id' attribute to each tag and to each tag. I know that reworking legacy code could take years, but for new development this shouldn't be too terrible, right? Besides, aren't we moving to XML data and a transforming display layer anyway?

      --
      "Goodness, how did you people live long enough to invent tools?" -Hobbes (the tiger, not the philosopher)
    3. Re:We don't nee more legislation by SPK · · Score: 1

      1. The "marketplace" occasionally fails. You cannot rely on the "marketplace" to solve all problems.

      2. Sure, these should be integrated into web-standards -- and we all know how well companies follow the "standards" on their sites, right?

      I work at a university, and I am *so glad* they have started to follow accessibility guidelines. I am sich and f**king tired of dealing with pages written by moron--pages that lack ALT tags for images, pages with heinous formatting, pages that are simply broken, etc. They've had "the web" for a decade, and until these guidelines came along, no one followed standards--no one cared.

      --
      Regnant populi. (The people rule.) Pregnant ropuli. (The snake will soon lay eggs.)
    4. Re:We don't nee more legislation by catfood · · Score: 2
      Our webmaster is having a horrible time designing a Unv website that complies with the ADA requirements. It's truely a nightmare.

      I'm sorry, I don't understand how making an existing site accessible can be a "nightmare" unless you've done something truly awful with the original design. What's the big holdup?

    5. Re:We don't nee more legislation by wandernotlost · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Our webmaster is having a horrible time designing a Unv website that complies with the ADA requirements. It's truely a nightmare.

      Clearly, your webmaster is incompetent. Tell him to learn HTML. Accesibility has been built into HTML from the beginning. The only source of nightmare in designing an accessible site is a misunderstanding of the web. The most common error is trying to make the web a graphic design medium. The web is not a graphic design medium. Disavow yourself of the mistaken notion that you can control what your site will look like on every (any) browser. To do that is to defeat the central premise of the web.

      HTML was designed to provide a logical description of textual content, which then could be formatted to the needs of the user. The designers of HTML have taken great pains to ensure that HTML, when written correctly, remains accessible in every type of browser. The problem is that incompetence is dominant in the web design field, and people write incorrect, poorly thought-out HTML, attempting to do something with the technology that is counter to its purpose. Dictating layout robs users of one of the great benefits of the web: that of being in control of the content's presentation.

      The web was designed to support users changing font sizes, etc., to meet their own needs. Fortunately, it was also designed with accessibility in mind, and thus a properly written HTML page is one that is also accessible. If you're using stupid tricks like spacer images and tables all over the place to try to control layout, you deserve whatever nightmares you're bringing on yourself.

    6. Re:We don't nee more legislation by ChristTrekker · · Score: 1
      The "marketplace" occasionally fails. You cannot rely on the "marketplace" to solve all problems.

      The "government" usually fails. You cannot rely on the "government" to solve many problems.

    7. Re:We don't nee more legislation by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 2
      Often - usually - it is invisible to you, because it's part of the background of the economy, but government intervention is the foundation of our economic prosperity.

      Currency. The transportation infrastructure. Public education. The rule of law. Labor benefits that turn a huge sector of the population into consumers, who otherwise might only be living on a near-subsistence level.

      The last point speaks to the nature of the usefulness of laws like the ADA. It's a reverse case of the tragedy of the commons. Without some sort of mandate for accessibility, any individual business could save money by not having to employ the handicap when it would have even a minor cost to do so (why build a ramp to access the workplace when you can hire someone else who can do the job who doesn't need one, even if the job doesn't require two legs?) and likewise, they could save money by not marketing to the handicapped (why spend money on marketing to a population that doesn't have good jobs to begin with?). This creates a vicious circle - the handicapped are eligible for fewer jobs, which decreases their buying power, which makes marketing to them less attractive; and certain types of consumption - particularly in education - help one become more productive to begin with.

      So the legislation breaks that cycle by saying that reasonable accomodation must be made. Any individual business may find that an inconvenience, but the *net* effect is a more productive society, and an entire population that can prosper in it that otherwise wouldn't be able to.

    8. Re:We don't nee more legislation by 5KVGhost · · Score: 2

      "If all browsers adhere to the standards very strictly then no non-compliant pages can be viewed with them."

      No one except web designers care about whether a page is "compliant" or not. They just want to see the web page. Making a browser that doesn't browse what they want to see is hardly a step toward wider acessibility of information.

      I agree that legislation is the wrong answer, but what we really need are better assistive technologies. You'll never get rid of all the stairs in the world, so instead concentrate on making a wheelchair that climb the stairs. Likewise, you'll never get rid of non-compliant pages, so instead make a smarter screen reader that can figure this stuff out.

      It galls some people to say it, but slack standards and the ease of publishing that they faciltiated are what allowed the web to succeed in the first place. Sloppy commercial sites with dumb mistakes that make them inaccessible should be an embarrasment to the companies that make them, but maybe the fact that they don't care enough to make their web site usable should make you question how they feel about you as a customer.

    9. Re:We don't nee more legislation by chanceH · · Score: 1

      >Currency.

      not invented by government. co opted by government, and as t ---> infinity, P(hyperinflation due to fiat currency) = 1. Oh ya, don't forget about the stealth wealth-confiscation through 'regular' inflation.

      >The transportation infrastructure.

      I might agree with this. We are all so used to roads being built through property confiscation that we just deal with it. That might be the only way it can be done, in which case we do need armed goons to get the job done.

      >Public education.

      laughable. poor quality. high propaganda content.
      rich and powerful end up manipulating system to get better of the deal any ways.

      >The rule of law.

      how can you bring up the rule of law in this discussion? I have private property. I make a web site. Government send in guys with guns because I don't tailor my website to victim-group of the moment. Of course, I can avoid any real trouble if I bow and scrape before the magistrates .... they'd really rather not prosecute me .... as long as they can command me like some serf and keep getting votes from all of their little victim-categories that they can put people into. When everyone, everywhere is always breaking some law, and enforcement is a matter of which political groups feathers you have ruffled, thats not the rule of law. Its the exact opposite.

      >Labor benefits that turn a huge sector of the population into consumers, who otherwise might only be living on a near-subsistence level.

      Labor laws came _after_ rise from subsistence farming due to free and voluntary interaction of thinking humans trying to make better lives for themselves.Labor laws don't cause increases in the standard of living, they retard it. [And I don't consider a 'right-to-strike' as a labor benefit. thats just being a free person in a free society.]

    10. Re:We don't nee more legislation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Each has a part to play.

    11. Re:We don't nee more legislation by Isofarro · · Score: 3, Insightful
      so instead make a smarter screen reader that can figure this stuff out.


      The point of a simple markup language like HTML is so that its easily computer readable. Bloating markup with markup that doesn't describe the structure of the document merely obfusticates the value of the content, and the result is unusable to many.

      The solution is not to bloat browsers up with more error correction routines to fix the problems you can't be bothered to fix. The solution is to make browsers conform to an existing recommendation, and encourage content authors to take responsibility for their content.

      That's why the W3 has _both_ Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, and User Agent Accessibility Guidelines (not to mention Authoring Tools Accessibility Guidelines). Everyone has their bit to do, their area of responsible. It is time to take responsibility for the websites you deliver.
    12. Re:We don't nee more legislation by indiechild · · Score: 1

      Our webmaster is having a horrible time designing a Unv website that complies with the ADA requirements. It's truely a nightmare.

      Why is your webmaster having such a difficult time? It's not hard to build a compliant website, if you're even halfway competent with coding HTML and CSS, and understand the separation of content and presentation (the way a webpage is supposed to work). I think his difficulties suggest that his site-building methodology is badly flawed.

  14. Re:Don't click on Slashdots book link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Really that's funny you say that because I seriously heard on the radio on my way into work that 1500 men die of breast cancer every year. You better be checking for lumps.

  15. Hopefully for the *users*.. by wd123 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    When I picked up this book, accessibility was an area that interested me but I am now convinced that it should be in the thoughts of every web developer. Some of the laws that are emerging to regulate accessibility look positively scary and there are lots of other good reasons to take accessibility seriously.

    As a disabled person I hope people take accessibility seriously because there are disabled people who need or wish to use the internet as well. I have a permanent visual impairment and one of the worst things is websites that force a tiny font on you instead of respecting your browser's settings for what *you* need the fonts to be sized as. I really hope that people would design ther websites in such a way that both disabled and non-disabled can use them easily, and I know this is totally possible, and doesn't even require any great sacrifice on the part of the designer in having a nice looking site. Unfortunately, of course, I suppose most people won't bother until it becomes a legal requirement. Still it would be nice if they did...

    --
    "question = (to) ? be : !be;" --Shakespeare
    1. Re:Hopefully for the *users*.. by VargrX · · Score: 5, Informative
      I have a permanent visual impairment and one of the worst things is websites that force a tiny font on you instead of respecting your browser's settings for what *you* need the fonts to be sized as.


      Then why do you let the html dictate what font's/fontsize you see?

      In the 3 major browsers, its easy:

      Moz: Edit|Preferences|Appearance|Fonts - choose your font's and typesize, and uncheck "Allow documents to use other fonts"

      IE: Tools|Internet Options|General Tab - Fonts Button: Set your Fonts and typesize here|Accessablity button: check the 2 "Ignore font..." box's, or you can supply your own style sheet

      Opera: File|Preferences|Fonts: there are too many options that you can control here, upto and including using your own style sheet.

      It's not difficult for the end-user to do, or to have it done for them by a helper.

      Just my .02
      --
      Sometimes people just have to learn and adapt to change, it is one of the requirements of being a living thing.
    2. Re:Hopefully for the *users*.. by intermodal · · Score: 2

      browsers have a "minimum font size" setting in most cases. I know Mozilla does, and I think IE has it hidden in there. You may want to consider looking into this. And for the crowd who only cares as to what group can see their page if it might apply to them, the way I see it, there are a lot more mobile devices these days that can use the internet, and most won't have a fancy browser. Therefore I make my pages at least navigable in Lynx as a guideline. While they're prettier in Mozilla, a good looking site can be made "readable" in other browsers if you use the right methods.

      --
      In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
    3. Re:Hopefully for the *users*.. by wd123 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm going to reply to bits and pieces of this, although it is an obvious troll, because I've heard this from people before and I'd like to dispel a few of the silly things that someone else might fall for.

      Fuck you, you fucking asshole. How entitled do you feel?
      I do not feel 'entitled'. I do feel that it is not too much to ask that people respect my browser's font settings. I've heard the same thing from plenty of people who are *not* disabled.

      Was Picasso told to make his paintings larger so that some genetic mistake could see them more easily? No, he was not.
      No, indeed he was not. However this is not a question of art (the laws at any rate are not). The question is one of useability in everyday places (such as business and government websites). You can do up your homepage however you like. If I find it horrid and unaccessible I will simply ignore it. However I think I should point out that nine times out of ten if I find a site unuseable most of my web-designer friends will concur. The "beauty" of websites is rarely seen in using tiny fonts.

      When you mandate it by law, you take arts away from the artist and put it in the hands of government.
      I wholeheartedly agree and would not dare ask anyone actually creating artwork for the sake of art to modify their work for me (or anybody else). But this isn't about art for the sake of art, it's about websites which people need to use for ordinary things such as shopping or researching governmental regulations.

      And furthermore, there is not a need for you to use the Internet. I'm sure that you receive disability checks and are quite taken care of by my tax dollars. Therefore your only need is that fat check. Once that comes you've got food, clothing, and shelter. The Internet is not a need and having porno stories read to you is not a need you fucking assgoblin.
      I think you will find that disabled people (such as myself) do *not* like being on disability. I'm not on disability, and I don't want to be. Those who I know that are on disability would much rather *not* be disabled and be able to do the things that others do (such as driving). Most people do not want to live on welfare.

      I guess that the front of the bus is no good place for black people. I suppose that they don't NEED to be able to sit in the front of the bus. Black people certainly never needed the use of the facilities which others had and were not available to them. Don't think it's the same? I bet there are a lot of things available on the internet which are simply not available to people offline. I think everyone should have access to the *information* on the internet. Poor, rich, disabled, abled, whatever. The internet has a huge amount of promise for the world at large and making it useful to everybody seems very worthwhile.

      --
      "question = (to) ? be : !be;" --Shakespeare
    4. Re:Hopefully for the *users*.. by wd123 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Then why do you let the html dictate what font's/fontsize you see?

      Mostly because I'd like to preserve as much of the design as possible. I think that (at least on some sites ;) people choose specific fonts for a good reason. I have in the past not allowed pages to use different fonts, but I would hate to be pushed back into that.

      The simple fact of the matter is that since just about every site out there is "done for IE" people *know* what the default fontsizes in IE are. It is very uncommon for people to change their default fontsizes, and I think that when they do webpages should respect that simply because that does not violate POLA. It's not *just* for visually disabled people, those who want fonts bigger or smaller for whatever reason should be able to get them, and it doesn't take much to not hardcode your fontsizes.

      --
      "question = (to) ? be : !be;" --Shakespeare
    5. Re:Hopefully for the *users*.. by wd123 · · Score: 1

      Yes! I just found it in my copy of Mozilla. How long has it been there? I never noticed it before. :/

      Thank you very much. :) That should be extremely helpful.

      --
      "question = (to) ? be : !be;" --Shakespeare
    6. Re:Hopefully for the *users*.. by parliboy · · Score: 2
      You have argued yourself into a bit of a paradox here. If you'd like to preserve the author's design, accept what he gave you. If you require a version suitable for usage with a disability, turn on the necessary browser options and accept a small loss in artistic vision. Suggesting that you shouldn't have to set your browser for the alternations you prefer, and instead imposing them on all of us, is no small amount of hubris. (Flamebait retardant on)

      And it is important to realize that some small part of what's done here is art. Design. In the modern web, the design and the content are intertwined, and beyond certain standard accomodations that anyone should be able to do (like alt-ing your images), it should be up to the viewer to decide what parts of the message are immaterial.

      --
      "You're never ready, just less unprepared."
    7. Re:Hopefully for the *users*.. by wd123 · · Score: 2

      I understand what you're saying, and I'm not trying to 'impose' anything on people per se. I will take the extra step to make things more useable for me. I'm saying that I would *prefer* to alter as little content as possible. I will alter as much as I need to to make things useful for me, though.

      What I'm trying to get at is that specifying fonts in terms of "proportions of the default size" is just better design all up. You don't know what font-sizes are readable on *anybody's* devices (disabled or not) so it makes more sense to specify your fonts in terms of proportion than specific sizes. That is just plain good web design. If people followed plain good web design in this case the upshot would be that people such as myself would have just a little less trouble with the reading of pages, but would still be able to get as much of the visual message as possible.

      I really don't want to trample anybody's design senses, and of course in the end it is up to the creator to decide what is best. I can see what you're saying, and I don't mean to come off as saying my needs are more important than others, I just happen to feel the font issue is one of good design (and more).

      --
      "question = (to) ? be : !be;" --Shakespeare
    8. Re:Hopefully for the *users*.. by Blkdeath · · Score: 2
      Moz: Edit|Preferences|Appearance|Fonts - choose your font's and typesize, and uncheck "Allow documents to use other fonts"
      Better still: Edit - Preferences - Appearance - Fonts - Minimum Font Size.

      I'm not 'vision impaired' (though I do wear glasses) and I have this set to 12pt. Why? Because I dislike sites like ATI who try to shovel "xx-small" fonts at me.

      Almost a best of both worlds situation. Of course, if I don't like the author's font choice I could always disable their ability to change the fonts on my end. We must always remember that every single one of the tags that comprise a web page are OPTIONAL. Merely reccomendations to the browser to suggest what they should do to the content within. I've used a few Italics tags within my comment thus far (and now I've also used bold) - but some of you likely won't see them. Why? Because you can disable such stylistic preferences. I believe the Links/Lynx text-browsers render Italic text in reverse-video, or in a different shade of ${User_Defined_Text_Colour}.

      This stuff is all client-side. If you don't like certain tags, (try to) have your browser of choice implement an option to disable them. If it makes the website into a total mess when you do so, don't visit that website.

      --
      BD Phone Home!

      Shameless plug. Like you weren't expecting it.

    9. Re:Hopefully for the *users*.. by Eimi+Metamorphoumai · · Score: 2

      I understand your points. Mozilla, at least, allows you to set a minimum font size, which may be just what you want. Other than that the websites can chose their own fonts, but you get to decide what's "too small" and make sure everything is at least that big. It would be nice if web designers just did the right thing, but at least a few browsers let you work around when they don't.

      --

      Visit me on #weirdness on the Galaxynet.

    10. Re:Hopefully for the *users*.. by tshak · · Score: 2

      Zooming in using Opera perserves the formatting of a website. There are solutions to many problems, I just hope that the government doesn't ever force them on us, and that people who need the solutions look for them instead of expecting others to accomodate them.

      --

      There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
    11. Re:Hopefully for the *users*.. by tshak · · Score: 2

      I hope you realized that you just compared Blacks to disabled people. Very poor comparison - even though that's probably not what you intended.

      --

      There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
    12. Re:Hopefully for the *users*.. by stephenbooth · · Score: 4, Informative

      I think it comes down to the difference between absolute font sizes and relative font sizes. I like to use the 'Larger' setting for font sizes in IE (I've recently moved to Mozilla and now use the 150% setting) as it's more comfortable for me and I can read default sized text OK. If a web page uses relative font sizes then I can still read it OK as IE (or Mozilla) will apply the size adjustment I've specified on top of the one specified by the web page. However if the page specifies an absolute size the IE will render the text at that size (I haven't been using Mozilla long enough to make a definate statement on what it does yet), not appling the size adjustment I've specified.

      I've tried using the overrides in IE, including local stylesheet, but have found it patchy at best. For example if the page specifies a separate stylesheet IE will use my local one instead, if it uses an inline stylesheet it will override some settings but not all and if it uses style settings in the body of the page it won't override them at all.

      Probably for some sites the design and the content are intertwined, however most of the sites I use most often (mainly technical how-to sites, product information sites and Buffy fanfiction sites) the important parts of the content are separate from the presentation/design side of things. I want to be able to read the text, not struggle to read it due to it being set to a small font size or get a headache from the color scheme the page author has chosen to use (e.g. pale yellow on orange, yellow on blue, dark brown on black &c, those are real colour schemes I've seen in the past few weeks).

      Stephen

      --
      "Don't write down to your readers, the only people less intelligent than you can't read" - Sign on Newspaper Office Wall
    13. Re:Hopefully for the *users*.. by stephenbooth · · Score: 3, Informative

      Haven't used Opera much and only recently started using Mozilla so can't really comment on those. However I can tell you from bitter experience that the overrides in IE (and the last version of Netscape that I used, four point something I think) work patchilly at best.

      Typically they will override somethings but not others, depending on how the page sets things. The overrides are not a universal panacea for poorly accessible pages.

      Stephen

      --
      "Don't write down to your readers, the only people less intelligent than you can't read" - Sign on Newspaper Office Wall
    14. Re:Hopefully for the *users*.. by wd123 · · Score: 2

      Well of course they aren't disabled. The idea was to take a minority that was previously discriminated against and point out that it was flawed.

      I'm not saying that being black makes you disabled, or vice versa, however it used to be acceptable to say "well such group doesn't NEED this to live, so screw them." I was just pointing out the ramifications of reducing people in a minority to only being able to access the bare minimums available because "they don't need it" even if it really is little or no trouble to provide access for them otherwise.

      --
      "question = (to) ? be : !be;" --Shakespeare
    15. Re:Hopefully for the *users*.. by dodobh · · Score: 2

      Content != Content representation. HTML is for content markup, but shuld not be used for exact representation (thats bad design).

      --
      I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.
    16. Re:Hopefully for the *users*.. by benzapp · · Score: 1

      This may all be well and true, but I for one refuse to participate by your rules. I am willing to take the risk. Fools like yourself don't understand that the more you tighten your grip, the more your control disappears.

      The point is life is NOT fair. No one cares about you, and we don't expect you to give us any sympathy either. We are not interested in making your life better. Give your views, I personally would be happier if you ceased to exist. It would be one less person trying to restrict my freedom to do and think and create as I see fit without having to check through 5 million pages of laws to see which regulation to follow.

      you cannot appeal to people's goodwill by threatening the use of the government's big stick. The simple reason this is so is because instead of playing by the rules, and appealing to reason, you believe we are all mindless animals who need to be directed with ruthless force. As you think we are such fools, you are equally the fool.

      --
      I don't read or respond to AC posts
    17. Re:Hopefully for the *users*.. by tshak · · Score: 2

      Right, but the argument is flawed because ethnic minorities, religious minorities, etc. don't need special treatment. A blind or deaf person does.

      --

      There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
    18. Re:Hopefully for the *users*.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You didn't even read wd123's post, did you? Willful ignorance is the mark of a crippled intellect. Ideology has so distorted your thinking, if it were shown to you in a clear light you would not recognize yourself. Snap out of it. wd123 is saying something we can all benefit from. If you don't get it, just let it wash over you. Please.

  16. Ending Words by forged · · Score: 2, Insightful
    "I would definitely recommend Constructing Accessible Websites as a good source of information on the area."

    You hit the sweet spot here. The problem is, with the trend in websites today (all flash/frames/javascript), no-one care.

  17. Betsie by horace · · Score: 5, Informative

    This is how the BBC tackles this issue: Betsie It was simpler to handle things this way rather than expand rules for coding pages.

    1. Re:Betsie by NachtVorst · · Score: 1

      Cool, it's even open-source...

      They even have a Sourceforge-page...

      The BBC has always cared about handicapped people (at least those with a hearing handicap), a lot of their tv-programs are subtitled (optional, via a BBC-text page that overlays the subtitles (the subtitles are great for non-native english-speakers too)), they have a special program for the deaf (hear-speak?)(with sign-language and subtitles), covering both general interest and thing of particular interest for the target-audience. They also repeat a lot of 'normal' programs with a sign-language translator on-screen.

      I don't know if they do this because they're required to by law, or because they choose to, but it's nice anyway . I see it as a positive side of public television, as I haven't seen this on any commercial channels.

      NachtVorst

  18. Re:Boring Web by aridhol · · Score: 4, Informative

    Web accessibility doesn't prevent beautiful pages. The Web Accessibility Initiative by the W3C has information on making web pages that degrade well. This means that you can have all the flash, Javascript, ActiveX, and everything else you want, and still let someone using Lynx and a screenreader hear what you have to say.

    --
    I can't say that I don't give a fuck. I've just run out of fuck to give.
  19. Simple Question by scott1853 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Why changes millions of webpages instead of making a few screen readers work better? It seems like spending billions of dollars throughout the country on upgrading everyones webpage isn't quite as effecient as spending a few million to research and develop some better OCR technology.

    1. Re:Simple Question by wd123 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Well most peoples' websites don't need to be changed. These laws are only for institutions offering public services. This isn't your blog, somebody's homepage, or anything like that. This is sites that everyone needs to access because they are pointed there in order to do business with a company, or work with a government agency.

      I think a good compromise here would be what a lot of people did back when frames were all the rage. Simply offer a no-frills page for people who are disabled. You get to keep your flashy page for your regularly abled (hah) consumers, and those who need special access can get it.

      Also, I don't personally use/need screen readers, what I do need is websites that do simple things like respect my need for larger fonts (that means flash is right out). A lot of websites don't do that, and until the last year or so I had to actually copy out the text I needed to read and paste it into something else. Now mozilla at least does text enlarging which makes my life a hell of a lot easier.

      --
      "question = (to) ? be : !be;" --Shakespeare
    2. Re:Simple Question by NulDevice · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well, it's not so much the problem with screen readers - that's just it. How do you screen-read something that's blinking? Or screen-read a picture without any information about what it is? Or screen-read a lovely layout that is position-sensitive?

      That's the issue - there are things that rely on visual cues, which just *can't* make the leap to screen-reading.

      There are other problems too - screen-readers aren't the only devices used for accessibility, as the visually-handicapped aren't the only disabled people using computers.

      There's a large number of issues to take into account, but frnakly none of them are too daunting to plan for. One can make a lovely and useful website that's fully s508 compliant as long as you're thinking about it in the deisgn phase.

      And the DIV tag is your friend. :)

      --

      ----
      "I used to listen to Null Device before they sold out."

    3. Re:Simple Question by Reziac · · Score: 2

      I used to maintain a system that had a screen reader for its blind owner. At the time, a decent 486 cost about $2000. The screen reader (hardware and software) cost him another $4000. Not every blind person is on public assistance (read: YOU get to pay for this with your tax dollars).

      I don't know what the current cost is, but that may be a serious stumbling block to getting all those old screen readers upgraded (assuming they CAN be made better).

      If I were developing a screen reader, I'd probably look at making it a glorified OCR process, but that means a pretty fair chunk of hardware under it, and -- well, I have vision-impaired clients, and most are still running old 486s, because that's what they can afford (aside from that they don't need the horsepower to do anything beyond basic documents and basic browsing, and had enough trouble learning their current systems). So much for that idea!!

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    4. Re:Simple Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Also, I don't personally use/need screen readers, what I do need is websites that do simple things like respect my need for larger fonts (that means flash is right out)."

      fyi, flash content is accesible to screen readers.

      also, the author of the flash content can add support for user adjusted fonts sizes, but I admit right now it is a little more difficult that it could be.

      mike chambers

      mesh@macromedia.com

    5. Re:Simple Question by gmhowell · · Score: 2

      See the sig. That's why screen readers are not a panacea.

      Vanilla web pages with the formatting done with CSS are a much better solution. Let me (or my wife, actually:) get the page, ditch the CSS, and pipe it into a braille TTY via lynx.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
    6. Re:Simple Question by tshak · · Score: 2

      I'm sorry, but I've read a few of your posts and I need to correct you. Although a business may choose to provide a service to the public, it does not (and should not) follow the same regulations that a public service (eg: government) does. Government websites should be regulated so that they have every possible accessibility feature available. However, if boeing.com desides that simple ALT tags is as far as they go, then so be it. If they want to show a flash movie about the new JSF, then that's their business. Sure, they'll lose all of us who don't have flash, and those of us who can't see well, but it's their decision how they spend their money.

      --

      There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
    7. Re:Simple Question by wd123 · · Score: 1

      You are correct there. However, to my knowledge at least it is not lawful for companies to exclude people who are disabled from doing business with them (within reason). That's why, for example, stores need to be wheelchair accessible and what-have-you. If Boeing wants to provide extra data or something not necessary to actually do business with them to only a specific group that is entirely their business. Perhaps I wasn't being very clear. This is about minimums, not maximums. I was simply saying that government sites and (some) businesses at least will need to comply, but not everyone who ever had a website.

      --
      "question = (to) ? be : !be;" --Shakespeare
  20. Save some time... by toupsie · · Score: 5, Informative
    If you know how to design HTML pages*, you can save yourself a lot of time and effort by visiting W3C. They have a great HTML validator which will help you in your goal of accessable web pages. The NYC Public Library has a great page on making your web pages accessable.

    * That doesn't mean using Dreamweaver or any other GUI HTML design software. Real HTML-ers write it by hand. Real Men use vi from what I hear but I like BBEdit for UNIX.

    --
    Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
    1. Re:Save some time... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you know how to design HTML pages*, you can save yourself a lot of time and effort by visiting W3C. They have a great HTML validator [w3.org] which will help you in your goal of accessable web pages.

      Let's validate your website:
      http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww .seagullguitars.com%2Fintro.htm&charset=%28detect+ automatically%29&doctype=HTML+4.01+Transitiona l

      OK. You're an idiot.

    2. Re:Save some time... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HTML 4.01 transitional?

      Pft. Real men use XHTML 1.0 Strict!

    3. Re:Save some time... by toupsie · · Score: 1, Offtopic
      OK. You're an idiot.

      No, you're a dumbass. That is not my website. I like playing my Seagull guitar so I list them as my home page on Slashdot. To quote Gov. Jimmie Davis, "It makes me happy when skies are grey". Unfortunately, my playing is not as good as the make of these pretty instruments.

      --
      Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
  21. Re:MOD THIS BUTTMUNCH DOWN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Look at slashdots they are doing the same thing!

  22. Re:Boring Web by henben · · Score: 3, Insightful
    A lot of accessibility measures aren't going to cramp a designer's style at all. How exactly does adding ALT tags to images affect the design?

    It's web designers who are ignorant of the correct use of CSS, and the importance of simple things like how to support non-Javascript browsers who think that accessibility means every page looking the same. It's nonsense.

    You can make beautiful, accessible pages if you know what you're doing. A List Apart are hardly ignorant or non-artistic.

    Does that look exactly the same as UseIt.com to you?

  23. you call that beatiful??? by Gambit-x7x · · Score: 2, Funny

    then you have a bigger problem on your heands!

    --
    Who controls the information, controls the world...
  24. Morals Schmorals, It's the Market You Paraplegic! by meh237 · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Interestingly, none of these is based on a moral argument -- they are all sound reasons why it is in the interests of an organization to think about accessibility. For example, one of these sections mentions that people with disabilities in the U.S. are estimated to control a discretionary income of over $175 billion. Making a site accessible to these people gives it access to an additional market that non-accessible sites cannot tap.

    This first chapter sets the tone for the whole book. It doesn't preach about accessibility for the sake of people with disabilities but rather seeks to convince the reader that accessibility is in their interests.

    Actually I think it more relates to ETHICS -- as it is dealing with one's profession -- but all the same. All the analogies other people have posted about how unfair these laws are and "why don't they make magazine publishers publish their magazines in Braile or spoken-word" are completely missing the point. Using a digital medium such as the Internet, it is easy to make your website easily accessible for persons with disabilities. Is it too hard to use the use of both your hands to enter in a few extra tags so that the Internet is "accessible to all!" You Slashdotters spuge yourselves when you think of how cheap it would be to put together free or close to free Linux boxes and ship them down to South America, yet your "creative expression"? is being denied by having to put in a few extra tags explaining the purpose of a picture. Give me a break you capitalistic freaks.

  25. Re:Boring Web by Gambit-x7x · · Score: 1

    i want to see all Flash or all dhtml page that is readeble trought the Lynx....

    --
    Who controls the information, controls the world...
  26. http://www.diveintoaccessibility.org/ by ChrisMWage · · Score: 4, Informative

    This site was incredibly useful for me in making my website more accessible.

    --
    --Chris http://chris.quietlife.net/
    1. Re:http://www.diveintoaccessibility.org/ by HealYourChurchWebSit · · Score: 2, Informative

      Some times Mark's server is inaccessible, in that case, here is a mirror of the document at Vincent Flander's Fixing Your Web Site : Dive Into Accessibility.

      There is also a pretty interesting example of usability gone wild at Chris Davis' - Sillyness spelled wrong intentionally who's site validates as XHTML 1.0 strict :: CSS 2 :: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0 and U.S. Section 508 Guidelines.

      I've often wondered if sometimes we're not all hooked into usability for usability sake, sometime forsaking compelling content? Not so much in the case of Chris Davis, but of some other sites claiming to be diciples of 'the Pilgrim'.

      --
      --- have you healed your church website?
  27. If you want to skip the reading by Rogerborg · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Just make sure that your site is browsable with lynx. That's a pretty good indication that you've placed content and usability above presentation.

    Hmm, I wonder how text-to-speech handles the <blink> tag?

    --
    If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    1. Re:If you want to skip the reading by TheMatt · · Score: 1

      Well, not quite. I am in the process of turning my awful home page (which I use mainly to try out new techniques, &c.) into accessible XHTML 1.1. Ever try to go to an index.xhtml page with lynx? You get the source out, and that's it. Kinda annoying.

      --

      Fortran programmer...oh yeah. Array math for life!

    2. Re:If you want to skip the reading by naasking · · Score: 2

      Check out my homepage then:

      http://naasking.homeip.net/

      It's fully XHTML 1.0 Strict Compliant. And it's viewable with Lynx. Perhaps you are just forgetting the content-type meta tag? ie.
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1" />

    3. Re:If you want to skip the reading by Peter+Winnberg · · Score: 1

      The right content-type for XHTML is really text/xml or application/xhtml+xml. text/html is the right one for HTML.

    4. Re:If you want to skip the reading by naasking · · Score: 2

      XHTML is valid HTML and valid XML. Since you want to view it in an HTML browser, you need to supply a content-type of text/html for the browser to view it properly (unless of course the browser understands XML, which lynx does not).

    5. Re:If you want to skip the reading by SkulkCU · · Score: 2


      I'm pretty sure it would YELL whatever was inside <blink> for the entire time you were on the page, no matter what else was also going on.

      --
      .sig last updated Jan. 14, 2000
  28. Only Government Sites Affected By Laws by goldspider · · Score: 2
    I think the submitter is a little mistaken; as far as I know, only government sites MUST be compliant with the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act: Section 508).

    I agree with the parent post which asserts that it would be crazy to force accessibility upon private owners. And for the reasons he gives and more, I believe that's why Section 508 does not apply to private websites.

    --
    "Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
    1. Re:Only Government Sites Affected By Laws by Isofarro · · Score: 2
      I think the submitter is a little mistaken; as far as I know, only government sites MUST be compliant with the ADA


      Well, there's one good reason to read the book, try page 192. The part that's titled "ADA and the Internet" -- this covers websites offering a service to the public, including non-governmental websites run by businesses. If you sell a product or service to the public, then your website falls into the scope of ADA.

      Section 508 is actually from the Telecommunications Act, not ADA.
    2. Re:Only Government Sites Affected By Laws by Isofarro · · Score: 2

      Woops. Its not my number day today.

      Pg 332 of the book is a section titled "US Department of Justice Policy Ruling: Applying the ADA to the Internet" which adequately paints the picture that ADA encompasses businesses providing "Public Accommodations", which are businesses offering a public service or public goods that have websites.

      Section 255 is the section found in the Telecommunications Act, which covers businesses doing business with governmental agencies.

      Section 508 is of the Rehabilitation Act Amendments of 1998.

  29. Re:Boring Web by swb · · Score: 3, Insightful

    if most web designers where following the rules made by ignorant and non artistic people web would be boring place...

    If most designers focused on usability as much as they focus on "artistic merit", the web would be a lot more legible.

    I'm all for cutting edge design, but most web sites have an application function that gets lost in teeny-tiny type, hard-to-read color combinations and excessively busy animation.

  30. link to text-only websites by Traicovn · · Score: 1

    Maybe we should go ahead and start a fund to buy a copy of this book for Southwest Airlines ;)

    All kidding aside though, as a general rule you can look at your website in lynx in my opinion to tell whether or not it is going to be accessible. I knwo this isn't the best way, but it's an option. Frames of course would be the biggest problem, however creating a text-only version of your website (many government websites have this) and putting the link somewhere near the top of your page is usually considered suitable. No graphics, flash, etc, but with most, or the same functionality of the original site, or at least a SUITABLE level...

    --

    [Something witty and intelligent should have appeared here.]
    {Traicovn}
  31. HTML is not coding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe encoding, but not coding.

    1. Re:HTML is not coding by Eeeeegon · · Score: 1

      Fair enough; but i Personally work with JavaScript CODE, .asp CODE, and .jsp CODE. Hell; most major corporate websites use dynamically-generated HTML to markup their content.

      So yes, when I (and other IT professionals) say they 'code' HTML, they really do.

  32. Dive Into Accessibility by palmech13 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Mark Pilgrim has a wonderful site at http://diveintoaccessibility.org/

    It's set up as a 30-day transformation process, with each day containing a new change. He includes has a few example characters, each with their own unique set of disabilities and/or web-browsing choices, and he explains how each of these people would benefit from said changes.

  33. Wrong way to look at the problem. by RobinH · · Score: 2

    I may be taking a simplistic view of this, but I've always thought it would be better to let people design buildings, web pages, whatever, however they wanted to, and then leave it to engineers to come up with products to allow accessibility for anyone who can't use the 'normal' methods of access.

    Didn't the inventor of the Segway first make a wheelchair that could walk up stairs?

    Unfortunately, these solutions are often expensive, but so are the widespread accessibility that is built into products nowadays. Either the company making the product has to pay, or we could subsidize the development and deployment of accessibility tools with a corporate tax. In essence, take the money that's going to be spent on making web pages accessible, and use it to develop and distribute more capable accessibility tools that can read normal web pages.

    It's just a thought. I'm not saying it would work.

    --
    "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
    1. Re:Wrong way to look at the problem. by gorilla · · Score: 2

      Actually most accessibility features are quite cheap, especially if they're done at time of construction. Average cost for a new home with basic access is $200.

    2. Re:Wrong way to look at the problem. by RobinH · · Score: 1

      Actually most accessibility features are quite cheap.

      Interesting, but will it be that cheap to add accessibility to corporate web sites? Especially since companies have to keep redesigning web sites - it isn't like a building where you build it once, and it sits there for decades.

      --
      "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
  34. The LAW by Andy+Social · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The law doesn't apply to private sites. There is a section of the Americans with Disabilities Act, Section 508, that addresses web accessibility. Section 508 applies to any site that receives government funding.

    However, there is a reasonable expectation that web sites won't exclude a subset of customers. This is not being addressed through any criminal process, but through various civil cases brought against individual sites. One of the most famous, of course, was the Olympic site debacle, for two iterations of the Games. After the 2000 games site was sued for not having such basics as alt-tags or a text-based menu, the 2002 games committed the same mistakes. It's just good web design to allow your code to gracefully degrade, rather than break in anything but the newest and most-overloaded browser.

    I know a bit about Section 508 because I've had to do web design for DoD the past several years. Many other DoD sites, I've noticed, claim compliance while using a Flash-based menu or Java applets for buttons. Clueless.

    --
    Illegitimi non carborundum
    1. Re:The LAW by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I know a bit about Section 508 because I've had to do web design for DoD the past several years. Many other DoD sites, I've noticed, claim compliance while using a Flash-based menu or Java applets for buttons. Clueless. "

      perhaps they were using some of the new accesibility features of Flash to make Flash based menus that were accesible?

      mike chambers

      mesh@macromedia.com

    2. Re:The LAW by Andy+Social · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, no. They were using the Flash 2/3 format, and their menus were completely inoperative on my work computer, since the LAN ops guys have disabled many plugins as well as scripting.

      The majority of military sites (at least small ones) are managed by people with no training in web design, just a copy of Frontpage and an order telling them to post the commander's photo right away. The older versions of FP made all buttons for navigation Java applets by default, which means the majority of small military sites don't comply with a federal law written in 1999. Left hand, right hand...

      --
      Illegitimi non carborundum
    3. Re:The LAW by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...and here's a Big Surprise: Congressional sites are exempt from Section 508 requirements.

      I'm not complaining about accessibility requirements--I think they're a good and necessary thing--but it'd be nice if congress would shoulder the same burden they put everyone else in the public sector under...

    4. Re:The LAW by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, Section 508 is an ammendment of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 and has nothing to do at all with the ADA. The rehabilitation act is like the government-applicable version of the ADA, but they are separate legislation.

    5. Re:The LAW by Andy+Social · · Score: 1

      You are correct. My error.

      Sorry for not replying sooner, but Anonymous Cowards don't generate message notifications.

      --
      Illegitimi non carborundum
  35. Some confusion on section 508, etc. by NulDevice · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've seen a lot of peole complaining about the guv'ment legislating their freedom of website-expression with section 508.

    Well, there seems to be a bit of misunderstanding, and it would've been better had the reviewer mentioned this.

    Section508 applies primarily to governmental websites. So if you're a .gov or a .state.us then it's likely you need to comply to section508.
    If you're a federal or state contractor you may have to comply.

    If you're not one of those things, do whatever you want.

    However, it may still be in your best interests to at least consider accessibility. You may not necessarily comply with all the W3C priority 1,2, and 3 standards but a few of them isn't going to hurt, and are generally common sense. There's a huge market out there for the disabled - if you ran a brick-n-mortar shop you wouldn't turn away $175billion worth of your customers, so why do it on the web?

    It's not like *all* of them are blind, deaf quadraplegics. I know people who use expanded fonts just because their eyesight isn't *great* - they're still legal to drive with glasses, but reading fine print on a screen necessitates assistance. Variable font-sizing and alt tags would suddenly open your website up to a lot of people just like that.

    Basically, to help make a site more accessible it doesn't require much - start with your alt tags, maybe longdesc if you're feeling generous, try not to deisgn with 7 layers of nested tables, and use relative font sizes. Most sites won't even need to be fully overhauled to accomplish this, just tweaked, and it can open up the availability to hundreds of thousands more people.

    It's not about being politically correct, it's not about avoiding lawsuits, it's about doing what's best for your website and delivering your content to the widest audience.

    --

    ----
    "I used to listen to Null Device before they sold out."

  36. No info on dynamic visual data? by kuwan · · Score: 4, Informative

    I'm surprised that there isn't a chapter on accessibility and dynamic visual data (charts and graphs, etc.). This is probably one of the most difficult things to do in creating an accessible site. Example: how do you get a description of those ever changing stock charts, or sales information? There are lots of data that are displayed graphically that also needs a description to be accessible, but there aren't many tools out there for creating that description dynamically. Corda seems to be one of the only companies that I've found that has a solution for this. Their tools will create a text description whenever you create a graph. Sure the description may not be the best, but most of the time it will do the job.

  37. make designing more tricky? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Accesibility is a right. The things addressed by these issues only force better web design practice. As a designer I want as many people to experience my work as possible and if one of the drawbacks of this is extra development time then so be it.

  38. Re:Let's get something straight by aridhol · · Score: 2
    While I suspect you ov being a troll, I will respond to the last line of your message:
    Blind people can lead rich, full lives. - in environments that don't require a dependancy on EYESIGHT. The net IS one of those environments.
    The web should be one of those environments. It's not like it's particularly hard to do. Unless it's a photo gallery, the majority of your webpage content is (should be) text. Since you probably have images, just plain text won't do everything you want. That's where the 'ALT' attribute comes in to play. Those who chose not to use them are just plain lazy.

    While there is more to accessiblity than using ALT tags, they are a start, and would probably improve the majority of pages on the web.

    --
    I can't say that I don't give a fuck. I've just run out of fuck to give.
  39. These accomodations usually help everyone by Insightfill · · Score: 3, Insightful

    With few exceptions, I've usually found that accomodations to ADA laws (or just accessibility in general) often benefit everyone, not just those targeted.

    Examples: Ramped entrances, curb cuts at intersections for sidewalks, large and clear print, low-sided bathtubs, hand-rails everywhere, wider wheelchair entrances, lower switches and controls on walls...

    The list goes on, and of course there are exceptions of accomodations that are either counter to the needs of those not at benefit (or just annoying), but generally I've found that a well-designed web site or doorway helps everyone.

    1. Re:These accomodations usually help everyone by sql*kitten · · Score: 2

      With few exceptions, I've usually found that accomodations to ADA laws (or just accessibility in general) often benefit everyone, not just those targeted.

      Well, yes and no. All that stuff isn't free, and will all have to be factored into the price. If you aren't in a business that the "disabled" patronize, what's in it for everyone else?

  40. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  41. I can't do anything about being parapalegic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can do something about being morbidly obese. It may not be easy, I may have "glandular problems", but I can change it.

    Bad example withstanding, your arguments are the same ones I have been using against the ADA for years.

    The problem with arguing against the ADA is that it is a noble law. However ill concieved and implimented, it is for noble causes. Anyone who argues against it is an asshole. The common wisdom is that it is right. So no matter what argument you make against it, you are wrong. Your an asshole, and you are trying to argue against common wisdom.

    If there is one thing harder to argue against than photographic evidence, it is common wisdom.

  42. Disabilities by Foss · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    "people with disabilities in the U.S. are estimated to control a discretionary income of over $175 billion"

    That means "Texans"

    j/k :p

    --
    You've got mail. Pattern baldness. - Crow
  43. Added benefits by Matey-O · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Building ADA compliant websites pull in some audiences that normally you wouldn't expect. If the font tags are properly coded, and the page devolves well if Style Sheets are turned off, you'd be surprised how your sites assist the elderly who can't see 12 pt text at 1600x1280, but can select a larger default font in thier browser.

    Likewise, our major application (initial unemployment registration) can be accessed with an Ipaq IR connected to a nokia cellphone and works well (enough) at 9600 baud.

    --
    "Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."
    1. Re:Added benefits by gmhowell · · Score: 2

      Likewise, our major application (initial unemployment registration) can be accessed with an Ipaq IR connected to a nokia cellphone and works well (enough) at 9600 baud.

      Sounds like someone's clients got caught up in the dot-bomb. Are there that many people on unemployment with Ipaq's and nokia cellphones?

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
    2. Re:Added benefits by Matey-O · · Score: 2
      Sounds like someone's clients got caught up in the dot-bomb. Are there that many people on unemployment with Ipaq's and nokia cellphones?
      No, but if an application is 'accessible', it's accessible to a LOT of things, not just IE 6.XX
      --
      "Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."
    3. Re:Added benefits by gmhowell · · Score: 2

      No, but if an application is 'accessible', it's accessible to a LOT of things, not just IE 6.XX

      Yeah, I realized right after hitting the 'post' button that this would be a rather odd case that would go a long way to proving accesibility.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
  44. Illiteracy isn't a handicap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can learn to read. You can't learn to see.

    You can lose weight, you can't regain a spinal column.

    If you ca'nt read, and you excect me to make an exception for you, that is what makes you something less of a citizen than me, or a blind person. Not that they can't read, just that they want me to make an exception for them because of their ignorance.

  45. Why not use ISBN.nu? by hacker · · Score: 2
    We should be supporting other vendors that sell these titles, not just the most-expensive ones. I personally recommend using isbn.nu for my book purchases. It allows you to locate a book by title, author, isbn, etc. and compares the price on the top 10 or so listings, including Amazon, Barnes, etc.

    This book can be found here on isbn.nu.

    I'm all for making this "required reading" for those self-proclaimed "webmasters" and "web developers", who use tables for layout, specify font sizes, override user defaults, remove titlebars, try to disable right-click, and a whole host of other things that define the ineptitude of these individuals, and their lack of skill in proper design.

    Come join some of us on #html on Efnet and you'll see the defining class of pedants like myself, and the others who insist that they aren't breaking usability by full-screening a browser window, removing all of the titlebars and then disabling right-click, and setting it to onBlur() by default.

  46. There are many other positive effects too! by matresstester · · Score: 5, Insightful

    People should also remember accessible sites are also nice and searchable sites!

    My clients come to me wondering why Google doesn't index them - their site is a mess! All those fancy Flash animations are just plain opaque to the search engines and screen readers, of course they can't navigate!

  47. Get real. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's right, design for Lynx, and screw the 90 percent of the web surfers that can see...

  48. Any suggestions for me? by NineNine · · Score: 1

    I'm working on making my website (see below) friendly for the sight-disabled. Any suggestions? I'm a bit stumped.

    1. Re:Any suggestions for me? by plugger · · Score: 1

      You could put proper clickable links in there, so that those of us using Mozilla could right-click-open-new-tab, but thanks for the pics anyway :-)

    2. Re:Any suggestions for me? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oops, my mistake. The rollover bars respond to a left click anywhere, but right click only works on the text of the link.

  49. Strip clubs cater to fetshism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe there is a dancer that could make some good money exploiting some guys wheel chair fetish.

    Hell she could probably just guilt a bunch of drunk guys out of money, wouldn't even have to turn them on.

    If they don't have a ramp, they are not allowing her to work. They should have been sued. Even if they wanted to hire her she couldn't work there. The fact that they didn't have a ramp showed, a) they weren't compliant with the law, and b) they had no intention of hiring her (because of her handi-cap), also against the law.

  50. Accomodate Me by efatapo · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Ok, so I'm illiterate. Since I can't read, you have to have an option to navigate your website by graphics only. As well as Text only for the blind. And then a nice mix for those who can see/read/hear/etc. You can't accomodate every group, why should you be required by law? I think it's great if you want to make your web site handicap accesible, but if we're going to mandate it by law, where does it stop? Just a thought

    1. Re:Accomodate Me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But illiteracy is a skill deficit, not a disability. If you're smart enough to use a Web browser, you're certainly smart enough to learn to read. Accessibility is about enabling people who *can't*, not people who *won't*.

    2. Re:Accomodate Me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Illiteracy has nothing to do with the ADA.

  51. Treat the problem, not the symptoms. by Genjurosan · · Score: 1

    Instead of more crap to accommodate the impaired, why don't we redirect our energies, our funds, and our legislation to find medical cures for these imparities? In every aspect of life, we only seem to want to treat the symptoms because treating the source requires to much effort. All the more reason for embryonic research.

  52. Quick Question... by Loki_1929 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If I run a commercial site, where does the responsibility end? Must the site be made accessible to the blind? How about those who are blind and deaf? And how about those who are blind, deaf, mute, and paralyzed from the neck down? There's always someone who will be discriminated against because of their disability. It wouldn't be called a disability if you were able to do whatever you wanted. I'm not indifferent to the needs of the disabled, and I can certainly understand having businesses make a reasonable effort to accommodate the disabled as best as possible; but where do you draw the line?

    My point is that no one needs to use the internet. People got along just fine before internet use was popular. Now we have a great convenience to do everything from ordering pizza to booking flights online. Does this mean that everyone must by law be able to use these conveniences? We don't allow the blind to fly airplanes, nor do we allow multiple amputees to fly the space shuttle. In those cases, there's a safety hazzard, obviously, but we're still denying them that. I don't see too many blind atheletes running around either (although the ref' sometimes appears to be). Should all businesses be forced to serve a customer over the telephone who's blind, deaf, and mute? Surely it's possible to serve this customer over the phone, but you know what? People got along fine before phones as well. As a side note, I don't believe newpapers are very accessible to the blind either.

    Should we bring the web experience for everyone to a lower level to make it more accessible to people? Two websites? Do you know how much more that would cost a company like Southwest Airlines? The more likely scenerio is that if they were forced to make it accessible to the blind, we'd see a very, very wattered-down, much less user-friendly website where Southwest's site used to be. I don't know about you, but I don't think it's fair to make it less accessible to millions just to make it a little more accessible to dozens. As far as the cheaper web faires, I'm sure Southwest would be happy to make a best effort to ensure they help the disabled who contact them via telephone to get the best faires possible. Has anyone even asked?

    My point is simply this - we should be thankful for whatever modern conveniences we're able to make use of, as we're much better off than those who came before us. Those who are paralyzed, blind, deaf, etc are now much better off than ever before. But don't think for a moment that that entitles every single person to enjoy every single convenience. I think this is one instance where more government intervention isn't going to help matters at all.

    --
    -- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
  53. You just don't get it, do you? by Millennium · · Score: 3, Interesting

    No one is trying to regulate how a page looks. These laws are not intended for that. What they are trying to regulate is how the page is coded, so that it can be easily (and automatically) converted to other formats by accessibility software.

    This does not have the slightest impact on the ability to design a page. There is no page out there which could not be coded in an accessible manner. It's just a matter of getting people to do it.

    And incidentally, you may find that coding your page in an accessible manner opens up new possibilities, if you're willing to look at them. Everyone knows, for example, about the visual styling properties of CSS. Not many know about the aural styling properties; you can set voice, tone, speed, even apparent position. And there's even some interesting stuff you can do with Braille in CSS, if you really want to. Or don't; as long as the information gets through that's the important thing, so you don't have to design this part of it if you don't want to. But the possibilities... oh, the possibilities...

  54. Government eating their own dogfood? by jhouserizer · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think accessability is a good thing - especially for "public" websites. That said, I find it interesting that I work for a company that builds/maintains a fairly significant site for the Gov. and we've asked them several time when they want to schedule us some time/money to making it more accessable, and they say it's not a priority - even after we point out the laws, etc.!

  55. Not just low res, but high res too by Gerry+Gleason · · Score: 3, Insightful
    My vision isn't that bad (at least with my glasses), but I find that many sites are almost unusable for these reasons. I have a medium resolution "17 monitor, and many sites have fonts way to small to be usable. Things are easier now that I switched to Galeon which has a nice zoom feature with a control right on the nav bar by default. Even then, sometime when I bump the magnification up to a usable level, some things start to run over each other (text on text, or text over image).

    Don't these people do any testing? If you want an example, just check out the link for the Lulu Tech Circus here on /. This site just sucks.

    1. Re:Not just low res, but high res too by Fweeky · · Score: 2
      My vision isn't that bad (at least with my glasses), but I find that many sites are almost unusable for these reasons. I have a medium resolution "17 monitor, and many sites have fonts way to small to be usable.

      My vision is fine; I don't need glasses, and I use a reasonable resolution (1280*1024 on a 17" monitor).

      I find most sites like to use fonts that are smaller than I'm comfortable with; the default browser size fonts are fine, they're just right. Unfortunately most sites disagree, and like to pick defaults between 80% and 60% that size. I've even seen sites hard-code their body text to ~6px tall.

      The thing is, my user.css expresses my desire to have decent size fonts:
      body {
      font-family: Verdana, Tahoma, sans-serif;
      font-size: 1em !important;
      }
      Sadly, most sites don't bother setting a base font-size in body, and instead just hardcode px values in individual elements; assuming they use CSS at all. Highly irritating.

      I saw an amusing article about font sizes and readability on Microsoft's site a while ago; he was saying that people like small fonts; somewhere around 1/8th of an inch tall for a monitor (which funnily enough is about the size of 1em Verdana).

      Why was this amusing? Microsoft chose to render the text of the article at about 1/16th of an inch. Without text zoom, it was next to unreadable.
  56. How about focusing on USEABILITY first?! by mfago · · Score: 1

    90% of websites out there are not useable to anyone out there due to poor design and overuse of flash, DHTML, javascript.

    Not saying that things shouldn't be accessible too though...

  57. Why such a long book? by Crapflooder+Supreme · · Score: 0, Troll

    All developers need to remember is that HTTP stands for Hyper TEXT Transfer protocol.

    Not Hyper Text, Graphics, Java, JavaScript, Shockwave Flash, and MP3 Transfer Protocol (or HTGJJSFMTP).

    Thank you.

    --
    "Don't worry, it's not loaded." --Terry Kath
  58. Re:Let's get something straight by aronc · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Blind people can lead rich, full lives. - in environments that don't require a dependancy on EYESIGHT. The net IS one of those environments.

    I usually don't speak this strongly but from someone who is married to a blind person:

    You are an idiot.

    Computers and the digitization/electronic distrobution of knowledge could, if done properly, be the single greatest boon towards overcoming the obsticles the handicapped face that mankind has ever invented. With a very small amount of work almost any real information in a computer can be processed and fed out of a computer such that anyone has access to it. The net is not dependant upon eyesight unless lazy developers make it that way. At worst you design a bare-bones text only version. At best you simply add a few tags while you're in the design stage. These relativley simple accomidations open up the entire world worth of information to a segment of the population that previously had very little access to it.

    The whole point of a society is to have the whole act such that the individual gains benefit. Your attitude is bad for society and bad for humanity.

    --

    jello.
    aka aron.
  59. Instead of buying the book by cygnusx · · Score: 2

    ... you can also look at Mark Pilgrim's Dive Into Accessibility, which I've found quite helpful.

  60. Many sites are broken WRT this by Gerry+Gleason · · Score: 2
    Just try it some time. There are a lot of sites that don't respect font preferences, and some that don't scale well when you use the zoom function.

    My problem is way too common to really be considered a disability. I'm in my early 40s and starting to lose depth of field. I can't move closer like I used to in order to see things better. Sure, I'll probably have bifocals to help correct this before long, but that is besides the point.

    Web designers that don't get this are hurting themselves and their customers, and it is just plain unprofessional. If you don't have the time or inclination to do this right, then get out of the business and leave it to those who do care.

    1. Re:Many sites are broken WRT this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have a better idea. Why don't you go to the sites that accomidate you and let US decide what WE want, HOW we want it on OUR sites.

  61. Re:Morals Schmorals, It's the Market You Paraplegi by Gerry+Gleason · · Score: 2

    You are right on with respect to professional ethics. The review also mentions the point that accessable websites are actually easier to code than inaccessable ones. Standards are critical no matter what the MS wannabes say. Embrace and extend hurts everyone, and anyone who says otherwise is buying into the ethics of MS marketing. The only way you can do this is to leave your professional ethics at the door. IE is not the only browser even if that is what the maketdroid down the hall says. If you have to have a lot of flashing UI interaction stuff, then you had better do your homework on what works and where.

  62. Re:Morals Schmorals, It's the Market You Paraplegi by greymond · · Score: 1
    is it too hard to use the use of both your hands to enter in a few extra tags so that the Internet is "accessible to all!"

    not that I have anything against those with problems, i'm just a lazy bastard. i always think "hey maybe i should use the ALT tag for my images" then i think "no i'd rather cut out early and play sonic" - i think it's alwso why i am too lazy to use the shift key when i type, and don't bother to check for spelling or punctuation.

  63. Minimum font size by Andy+Social · · Score: 1

    Opera, Mozilla, and Netscape 7 all have the option to set a minimum font size. IE is the only major browser that doesn't allow this.

    Also, all three of the major "alternative" browsers have a zoom function that makes fonts larger regardless of the point-size set by the web designer. IE is the only major browser that will NEVER make a 8-point font bigger than 8-points without overriding the entire font structure for the page.

    Considering how many newbie (or rude maybe) web designers assume that their pages will never be viewed by anyone with a resolution greater than 800x600, I'm a big fan of the Minimum Font Size option in my chosen browser. I obviously don't choose IE. :-)

    --
    Illegitimi non carborundum
  64. The internet isn't a RIGHT!!!!! by nom+sandgorgon · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    What's next? Am I going to be told to make sure that colors on my website don't effect people with a black/blue colorblind problem. If you don't like a site don't patronize them!!

    I'm sorry if someone has a disability but that is their problem. The government forcing me to change a website is mine! What happened to freedom of speech? Is the government going to pass a law that will prevent me from using long words so people that flunked out of school can understand me? What ever happened to people rising to the challenge and overcoming adversity?

    People w/ disabilities have to learn to copy with the rest of us.(called the norm) We shouldn't have to expend vast amounts of time to cope w/ them. (sorry but this is reality)

    Ex. How many times do you really see all those handicapped(ohh.. excuse me 'challenged') places in front of the store occupied? How many people with those tags are really held by truly handicapped people? These places need to exist but we have a LOT of people running around saying they are handicapped that aren't!

    How many restrooms are closed to the public now because the store owners don't want to spend thousands to make them wheelchair accessible?

    1. Re:The internet isn't a RIGHT!!!!! by henben · · Score: 0
      make sure that colors on my website don't effect people with a black/blue colorblind problem

      That common form of colour-blindness.

      Hard to tell if you're a troll, or just an idiot.

    2. Re:The internet isn't a RIGHT!!!!! by DuBois · · Score: 1
      Hard to tell if you're a troll, or just an idiot.
      Actually he's neither a troll nor an idiot. When government strayed from its original purposes of protecting life, liberty, and property, it messed up.

      If there truly is a $175 Billion market for accessible websites, then websites will be made accessible without government meddling.

      All that government meddling does is produce people who are pissed off at "differently abled" people having the best parking places reserved for them by government fiat (NOT by market forces), then never using them.

      As Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis said, "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the Government's purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

      I have compassion for people who are differently abled, but mandating website accessibility is a loss of freedom that will have unintended consequences similar to the closing of public bathrooms due to their inaccessibility by the "differently abled."

      --
      The IPCC has purposely engineered a massive scientific fraud.
    3. Re:The internet isn't a RIGHT!!!!! by nom+sandgorgon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I have problems with blue/black myself. So WHAT? You know how I cope? I don't buy dark blue clothes!!!!!

      While we're talking about people w/ disabilities. How many members of congress do you see that are disabled? Is there anything about their job that requires more than a working brain and a way to communicate?

      I have a small business. If I ever get big enough I may be faced w/ hiring someone to help a wheelchair bound person run my stockroom because they can't reach the top shelves. How reasonable is that?

      My point is that we have let the government have too much to say as it is now!! Our government is chipping them away piece by piece.

      Ask yourself this --- Who bothers you more on an airplane? A 6'5" bodybuilder or a 78 year old grandma w/ a little swiss army knife w/ scissors? Everyone is willing to give up tons of rights for a false sense of safety.

      Isn't it interesting that the SNIPER is picking one of the tightest GUN CONTROL areas in the country? Could it be because if he tried it somewhere else someone might return fire?

    4. Re:The internet isn't a RIGHT!!!!! by henben · · Score: 1

      Insightful.

  65. Accessibity, in a nutshell: do it by tmoertel · · Score: 5, Informative
    I'm surprised at how many people are complaining about having to make their web sites accessible. Why is this such a big deal? It's easy to do and helps not only people with disabilities but also you the creator of the web site.

    Why? Here's the quick course:

    On the web, the primary way that information is represented is in the form of HTML and XML documents.

    Neither HTML nor XML was designed as a visual medium; rather, both are intended to represent information in a manner that is independent of presentation.

    However -- and this is where the problems start -- almost all other media that designers and content creators have experience with (e.g., the ever-popular ink on paper) are visually oriented media, and so many designers and content creators approach web media with this bias.

    As a result, all too many web sites are designed with the goal of looking a certain way instead of communicating the intended information clearly. This is an understandable error because with most other media (e.g., ink on paper), these two goals are one and the same. But it is still an error.

    To correct the error requires nothing more than the following:

    1. Make sure that the designers and creators clearly understand what is to be communicated, not merely how it looks.
    2. Make sure that each piece of information to be communicated is represented explicitly, not relying upon a particular visual interpretation to convey its meaning. For example, if you want to represent the text "Chapter 1", use the plain text "Chapter 1"; do not use GIF whose pixels can be read as "Chapter 1" when visually interpreted. (If for some reason you are compelled to use the GIF rendering, annotate it (via ALT) with the text "Chapter 1" so that the underlying information is once again made explicit. Note, however, that unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise, it is best to use the plain text. Being able to render text in your pet font is not a compelling reason.)
    3. Then, once the information is represented clearly and explicitly, attach style sheets to lend the desired visual (and other) presentations to the information.

    Even if your web site's audience does not include people with disabilities, there are many good reasons for making your site accessible:

    • Information in an accessible site is readily available to web crawlers, indexing agents, and search engines. As a result, an accessible site is more likely to be properly scanned, categorized, and presented as a valid search result to people who may be interested in your site. In short, accessible web sites are easier to find. Therefore, if you want a larger audience, make your site accessible.
    • Making your site's information explicit and independent of any particular presentation makes it easier to change your site's content and easier to change your site's design. It also makes it easier to delegate one or both of those tasks.
    • Accessible web sites are also well-formed and valid (i.e., conform with the appropriate HTML and XHTML document type definitions). This eliminates a class of "browser errors" and makes accessible sites easier to process with automated tools such as machine translators, indexers, and so forth.
    • Finally, it is often easier to build a great web site by separating the content from the presentation than it is to muddle these concerns and attempt to manage them as one. After you build a few web sites that enforce this separation, you'll never want to go back to the old way.

    There you have it. When doing the right thing is easier, why not do it?

    1. Re:Accessibity, in a nutshell: do it by Isofarro · · Score: 3, Interesting
      I'm surprised at how many people are complaining about having to make their web sites accessible. Why is this such a big deal?


      Web designers have great difficulty in taking responsibility for anything - that's why they are web designers and not artists or authors. They've spent years pretending they have a profession.

      Now that people are expecting a professional service (how dare they!), web designers are compelled to avoid doing the right thing as much as possible. So they need to pretend its incredibly difficult, incredibly expensive, doesn't apply, leads to bloat, the browsers can do all the work.

      Its about the unwillingness to take responsibility.

      And thank you for an excellent post.
  66. medical websites by alkatraz · · Score: 3, Informative

    A few weeks back, vennix.com had a very interesting article on what they consider accessible websites for the healthcare/medical industry. Interesting read.

  67. Bobby by r_j_prahad · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I am surprised that nobody has mentioned Bobby yet. Developed by the Center for Applied Special Technology (CAST) in cooperation with the W3C, Bobby is "a software tool designed to help expose and repair barriers to accessibility and encourage compliance with existing accessibility guidelines."

    I've used it extensively over the past year. It used to be freeware when it was owned by CAST, but still... at $99USD it is a miniscule cost for any company that must comply with accessibility on it's web pages.

    "Bobby"

  68. slightly OT: Browser designation by armchairlinguist · · Score: 1

    Maybe you mean Netscape 4? Mozilla 4 is still long in the future.

    1. Re:slightly OT: Browser designation by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > Maybe you mean Netscape 4? Mozilla 4 is still long in the future.

      Obligatory quote from the 3.0 release notes:
      "It's spelled Netscape, but it's pronounced Mozilla."

      Currently Mozilla is at something like version 5.0 release 1.2
      alpha, with the 1.2 beta release due out shortly. (a "release"
      is also called a "revision", which may be abbreviated "rv".)
      Netscape 7.0 for example is based on Mozilla version 5.0 revision
      1.0.1. Netscape 4.x (right up through 4.79 or whatever the last
      release was) was based on Mozilla version 4.0, which is very
      badly obsolete. Yes, it was called Mozilla then (not in the
      official product name, but in development) and even earlier.
      And yes, this is all somewhat confusing, but if you look at the
      user-agent string (which shows on the About page), all the
      information is there, plus some additional information (e.g.,
      platform and language, and in version 5 the build date as well).

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
  69. To repeat a common line... by awtbfb · · Score: 1


    A non-disabled person is simply "temporarily abled."

    You get old, you become disabled - and/or - you get hurt/sick, you become disabled.

  70. From Someone On Both Sides by mgrochmal · · Score: 3, Interesting
    From the posts that I've read, there are some misunderstandings about the intentions of the book and the ADA.

    First, a bit of background on what I've learned over the past few years. I was born with a few visual defects, but I could still get around with a good set of glasses. Over the years, my vision has steadily degenerated, partly from the stiffening of the eye muscles, partly from a bad accident in my younger years. Now I can't see out of one eye, and only see a monochrome image in 20 degrees of vision, where a normal person can see about 120 degrees.

    My second year in college, I became friends with someone who was completely blind. He's an excellent writer, and has publications in a few magazines (don't recall which, though). However, when his printer's error light started blinking one night, he called me on the phone and wanted me to fix it. It was out of paper, but because the printer was old, it wasn't telling the computer what the problem was*. He couldn't fix the machine because it wasn't telling him what was wrong. All he knew was that he hit print and nothing was happening.

    As for some of the comments about forcing standards on people's creativity, consider many of the real-life standards from the ADA. When you go to a major store such as a shopping mall or a Wal-Mart, how often do you see several handicapped parking spaces or a small ramp on the sidewalk on the sidewalk? Those are the kinds of adaptations the ADA covers. The people who design the blueprints have standards they adhere to to make the building accessible, so they do it in the beginning. It's not like companies make them do it unwillingly, but they just do it.

    In a response to someone who said that disabled people shouldn't complain because they get fat disability checks: I'd love to hear how you define "fat". I get a disability check because of my visual problems and Asperger's Syndrome. I get ~$170 a month. My rent is around $650, but is subsidized down to around $200. Given that I also have to pay for utilities, transport, food, Internet access, and other basics, how do you explain how I shouldn't have to worry? I want to work, but the last 10 jobs I interviewed for were turned down for other people. I don't want people to bend over backwards to accomodate for me. I want to live independantly.

    Overall, the comments on this article are interesting to read. Some people understand that this about reasonable acomodation. Others feel this is about requiring people to crimp their writing styles for people they may never meet. It's not about that. There's a difference between making Internet portals and information archives accessible and making Sally's "This Is A Picture Of My Cat" page universally accessible. Businesses have handicapped parking spaces and ramps. Your house probably doesn't.

    *Before anyone jumps on how the guy should've had a better printer, many of the people I worked with don't have the latest tech because they cannot afford the new computers. Thus, they get help from an agency that trains them in adaptive technology. Most of the computers they give people are whatever people donate to the agency or are found in second-hand sales. They get funding from the government and independant donations. Think of things like this when you complain about paying for taxes

    --
    This .sig Intentionally Left Blank.
  71. PDF Forms - bleh by VJTod · · Score: 1
    In Chapter 6, ... I wasn't sure about the stuff on PDF forms (does anyone actually use these for web input?) but the advice on HTML forms was great


    I work with process automation and we occasionally get clients who are using Online PDFs - bleh. My favorite is on of our customers with Online PDFs - when the forms are submitted, they are printed out from a server - and then users manually enter the data into databases.
  72. Not just for blind by stankyho · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Accessibility is not just for the blind. A Web site builder needs to think about if someone like Stephen Hawkings or Christopher Reeves could navigate the site as well, without just "tabbing" through every link. Also Web standards does not equal accessibility either.

    A good example of an accessible site is the one for the School for the Blind.

    I don't think Flash should go away, but designers need to decide when is an appropriate time to use it. Games sites like NickJr.com and PBS Kids make good use of Flash and shockwave(I have kids). But band sites and company sites that are all in Flash do little but get real annoying fast and alienate those who can't use the site.

    Wired just recently did a complete redesign of their site to follow Web standards and use XHTML and CSS. More info is here.

    --

    ---
    eeww, I'll have a crab juice.
    1. Re:Not just for blind by ManxStef · · Score: 1
      Wired just recently did a complete redesign of their site to follow Web standards and use XHTML and CSS. More info is here [wired.com].

      Yes, I submitted a story on this to Slashdot, but apparently it wasn't considered "newsworthy".

      Nevermind that it's probably the biggest milestone for XHTML and CSS supporters yet. Nevermind that it proves that a large, popular, high-traffic website can successfully design and implement a site that makes itself accessible and easy to read in Lynx, that doesn't need to use tables for layout, needs less bandwidth to run, with less server load, will be easier to maintain, and will be viewable in every browser, whether Netscape 1 or a Pocket IE. Nope not newsworthy. Instead we get articles telling us how duct tape can remove warts, great... Alright, alright, I'll stop whining now!

      There's a couple more comments on the Wired changeover at the Web Standards site and CSS guru Eric A. Meyer's site (both excellent examples of XHTML themselves BTW).

      Cheers,

    2. Re:Not just for blind by ManxStef · · Score: 1

      Oh, just to add to the info on the Wired redesign, there's an excellent article over at Netscape's DevEdge:

      An Interview With Douglas Bowman of Wired News

  73. Crazier Still... by ziriyab · · Score: 2
    The ADA has already been used to force companies to rehire a drivers, pilots, and policemen fired for extremely poor vision, to force professional golf to modify it's rules to allow people to ride in a cart rather than walk, and to force fitness centers to hire obese people as instructors.

    Not to menshun being uzed to force slashdot to except posts from people with poor gramer and speling ;)

  74. Corrected Link by Wiseazz · · Score: 2, Informative

    The Perkins site, IS interesting. Here is a working link :)

    --
    My sig sucks.
  75. Mozilla will enforce a minimum font size. by Inoshiro · · Score: 2

    I like to be able to comfortably read my content, and I find that setting a minimum font size or 20 or 22pt on a 19" monitor (at 1152x864) works out well. Mozilla is, IIRC, the only browser to have this option.

    If you are using local stylesheets, you should always include the !important attribute as well. IE is broken if it lets remote stylesheets override the user stylesheet, but it never hurts to try another approach :)

    --
    --
    Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
  76. [OT] Re:The internet isn't a RIGHT!!!!! by plugger · · Score: 1

    Isn't it interesting that the SNIPER is picking one of the tightest GUN CONTROL areas in the country? Could it be because if he tried it somewhere else someone might return fire?

    If someone was popping people with a pistol, there might be some merit in your argument. Since he appears to be firing from long range, I assume you must live in an area where people carry rifles whilst shopping, filling up the car etc.

    Isn't it interesting that the SNIPER is operating in a country with extremely lax gun control laws?

  77. Pass the Bobby Test... by AShocka · · Score: 1

    It is possible to design good sites and get passed by Bobby, E-bility.com

  78. Your SIG needs fixing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you're "comatose" you can't sip mango juice.

    In fact, you wouldn't be doing much else other than drooling.

    Try, instead:

    • languid

    • drowsy
      slumbrous
      groggy
      engorged
      surfeit
      weighty
      dew-fed
      blinkered
      broken
      ???

    Don't let scansion make you choose the wrong word. "Nibbbling"'s pretty good, but I don't know about shoals . . .

    msq: minder of sigs

    1. Re:Your SIG needs fixing! by some+guy+I+know · · Score: 1
      (S)he's quoting the lyrics of the theme song for the BBC TV show "Red Dwarf":


      It's cold outside.
      There's no kind of atmosphere.
      I'm all alone, more or less.
      Let me fly far away from here.
      Fun, fun, fun in the sun, sun, sun.

      I want to lie, shipwrecked and comatose,
      drinking fresh mango juice.
      Goldfish shoals nipping at my toes.
      Fun, fun, fun in the sun, sun, sun.
      Fun, fun, fun in the sun, sun, sun.


      Note: This is from memory, so there may be an incorrect word or two.

      I believe that the song refers to Lister's desire to spend his life in Fiji.
      --
      Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
  79. Re:Let's get something straight by l33t-gu3lph1t3 · · Score: 1

    Ok, I'm willing to admit I'm incorrect on this. Thinking about it, it's true that websites can be designed in a way that would allow text readers to interface with them.

    --
    ------- "From bored to fanboy in 3.8 asian girls" ----------
  80. I don't f*cking code HTML by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't fucking 'code HTML' dude. I write server-side web applications using ASP, ASP.Net, XML, SQL Server, etc. Let some other half-witted fucktard who thinks they're a programmer design the snazzy interface. 'Coding HTML' sucks big monster peckers, and so do you. It's worthless shitbags like you that THINK they're programmers who flooded the IT market with their own brand of ignorance and brought about the dotBOMB. Don't include real programmers in your girls only club.

  81. Re:Boring Web by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How exactly does adding ALT tags to images affect the design?

    Okay, I'm mulling over putting a gallery of my images online. ALT tags will increase the weight of the pages. That's bad design. I'm thinking a comment on the front page like "there's nothing but pictures here" would be more of a service to the blind. It would definitely mean lighter pages, and that's something I care about.

    So why should I use ALT tags, please?

  82. Spacer Images by Andy+Social · · Score: 1

    As an aside, why are you still using spacer images? Are you seeing a different demographic in your usage logs than I see in mine? I have such an insignificant number of visitors that use a browser so old that spacer images are a good idea, I don't bother. The spacing syntax in CSS is a much better solution, IMHO.

    --
    Illegitimi non carborundum
    1. Re:Spacer Images by baudbarf · · Score: 1

      Interesting point. Habit, I suppose. My human declination towards change. Something like that :)

      --
      You can run but you can't hide, except, apparently, along the Afghan-Pakistani border.
  83. The Two-Site Approach by davedigi · · Score: 1

    What would be interesting is if an automated tool were developed specifically to convert sites to a 508 compliant standard (for those not in the Government, Section 508 details all the rules for creating an electronically accessable web site).

    One major fault of developers is feeling that it is necessary to create one site that is usable by blindreaders such as Jaws and conventional browsers. For blindreaders to function properly, the site had to be downgraded to a circa 1996 architecture. This makes the site unpleasent and potentially less usable for the vast majority of non-disabled users. Ideally, a tool should be created that automatically looks at your site, and places the content in deadly dull plain text in a separate URL. This duplicate URL tree would be maintained automatically, and users could access it by clicking on a handicapped icon at the top of the screen.

    As for other portions of disability developing (there are many of them), it is just good development practice to not rely on color to denote action (colorblind people have a horible time with redlight greenlight stuff). Small changes like that are just concious actions that the developer can make to make their user community more functional.

    --Dave

  84. Morals Schmorals... by orim · · Score: 1

    Is it too hard to use the use of both your hands to enter in a few extra tags so that the Internet is "accessible to all!"

    As a matter of fact, yes. Have you ever heard of a carpal tunnel syndrome?

    --
    "If you could only see what I've seen with your eyes..." - Roy Batty