Xbox Receives Linux Mandrake 9.0

An anonymous reader writes "Today the Xbox Linux Project announced that Xbox Linux Mandrake 9 has been released. This is the first complete Linux distribution for the Microsoft Xbox gaming console. A 350 MB installation CD of Xbox Linux Mandrake 9 is available for download free of charge from the Xbox Linux website."

Comments

Woooweee!

[ebbomega]

Now I can use WINE on my Xbox....

Re:Woooweee!

[Anonymous Coward]

if you use wine on a girl, you can use her 'x-box'

Re:Woooweee!

[jayant_techguy]

Yup me too. Perhaps this might teach something sensible to microsoft.

Re:Woooweee!

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering this is slashdot, he will probably wonder where the controller plugs in.

Re:Woooweee!

[CyberDruid]

Her: "That's not really a female connector, you know..."
Him: "It's alright, this is not really my IEEE 1394 firewire either."

Re:Woooweee!

[ScaryDeath]

And why exactly would you want to?

Re:Woooweee!

[Anonymous Coward]

About your sig: it should be "Opinions stated are mine and *do* not reflect those of the Illuminati". If it were 'The opinion', it would be 'does' - of course, you'd then have to change many other things in the sentence.

Re:Woooweee!

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, great! Now, when I've finally found the damned g-spot I have to find some freakin x-box and who knows what the next buzz-word is going to be?!

Re:Woooweee!

[Buck2]

That is, of course, just what the Illuminati would have you think.

Re:Woooweee!

[Eric_Cartman_South_P]

Then slap on a PS2 emulaor and you'll have a REAL gaming system!

Re:Woooweee!

[CyberDruid]

This is the way it has always been written. Are the fnords getting to you?

Cool!

[Anonymous Coward]

No wait...

So what?

Now you can play Shi-sen-sho on your TV screen?

Yeah *snicker* that's cool...

Re:Cool!

[ScaryDeath]

No, it means you can run apache from a games console :)

README / legal

[jukal]

Heh, they handle the legal issues in a very "pro" way:

Xbox is either a trademark or a registered trademark of Microsoft Corporation. Mandrake might be some kind of trademark of MandrakeSoft. Linux definitely is a trademark of Linus Torvalds. GNU is cool, but I don't think it's a trademark.

Re:README / legal

[Anonymous Coward]

"Linux definitely is a trademark of Linus Torvalds."

In which parts of the world?

Re:README / legal

[jukal]

This chapter from Linux Mark Institute might give you a hunch.:

After considerable expense, and a gift of considerable legal resources and time by the law firm of Davis & Schroeder in Monterey, California in recovering the U.S. registered trademarks for Linux, Linus and his advisors concluded that the only way to protect the mark was to actively pursue the registration of it in a number of countries around the world and to maintain the U.S. mark in his name. To do so has required that we aggressively prosecute people who tried to register the name for their exclusive use in the U.S. and other countries, which we have successfully done in five countries. Should you become aware of other people claiming the exclusive use of the mark in other countries, please contact us at the address below.

So you could say it is a protected trademark in most countries. If someone else tries to trademark it, they will protect it aggressively.

Re:README / legal

[inerte]

Same here in Brazil. Conectiva gave Linus the trademark.

I don't want to buy MS products/.

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't put more money in MS pockets.

Re:I don't want to buy MS products/.

[isorox]

Microsoft sell XBoxes at a loss (and take subsidies off games), same as other consoles. Buying an XBox and no games immediatly causes Microsft a loss. However they can use those figures to get more games to the platform, and more sales, and more money. In the short term Microsoft lose out. In the longer term they regain their losses. In the longest term, well, who knows.

Re:I don't want to buy MS products/.

[encrypted]

MS sell things things at a big loss im told, so we should all do the world a favour and buy as many as possible and use them for paperweights.

Re:I don't want to buy MS products/.

[jez_f]

However they can use those figures to get more games to the platform, and more sales

True. Unless a significant number of Xboxes are chipped, in which case publishers become more wairy of using xbox. Hence less titles, less sales and bigger loss. Personaly I think that Xbox linux is a nice idea but it has taken the limelight from PS2 Linux which is provided and endorsed by sony. It is nice that Sony are happy to let you play with their hardware. OK so you have to shell out for a HDD but it is a hell of a lot cheeper than a PS2 dev kit.

Re:I don't want to buy MS products/.

[bLanark]

However they can use those figures to get more games to the platform, and more sales, and more money.

Hmm, I think that games makers will base their platform decision on how many games they sell on each platform, rather than how many of the platform there are out there.

Initially there will have been a "me too!" attitude to Xbox game development, but down the road they'll now be saying "sold 40,000 on PS2, sold 5,000 on Xbox. Let's stop Xbox development/cut the team/whatever".

Re:I don't want to buy MS products/.

[Anonymous Coward]

wouldn't buying it help them recoup more (most) of the loss than if it was never sold at all? ;)

Re:I don't want to buy MS products/.

[Atrahasis]

No, because if they remain unsold, MS will simply reduce production levels. If they are all bought, and people keep on buyingthe consoles but not the games, production goes up, profit goes down.

Re:I don't want to buy MS products/.

[AsparagusChallenge]

Oh, please stop that farse already.

The box may be sold at a loss, or not.

But every box sold means numbers to show to the game publisher's marketdroids.

Inflated numbers mean a greater probability of asking money for games that will run in the hardware.

The presumed loss not only is recuped from actual royalties, but too from sending the bill to the game publisher for signing a licensing contract.

For the *Morality* aspect of the question there is only a way out: you don't like them, in this case there is not a quick exit like saying "I have not alternative" because this is a luxury, not a need; if you dislike the company boycott them lawfully and stay aside from their products. Anything else is hypocrisy.

Re:I don't want to buy MS products/.

[Queuetue]

Of course not - .NET allows them to instantly reprioritize the supply chain - haven't you seen the "One degree of seperation" ads? :)

In reality, they can't step manfacturing up and down that quickly - the supply chain probably runs four months in each direction. Now, if we could find the actual period of that chain, and then buy in disruptive cycles out of sync... Then, you could cause some havoc.

In reality, buying a Xbox just adds to thier user count on the big chart - but we geeks won't even make a blip on the radar.

Re:I don't want to buy MS products/.

[13Echo]

Exactly.

Judging by the cost of the X-Box and the cost of these off-the-shelf parts when purchased in bulk, why must anyone assume that they are losing anything? Many of the parts are quite OLD. That includes the hard drive, RAM, CPU, and now even the GPU. It is foolish for anyone to assume that they are losing any money at all. Microsoft gets these parts at dirt-cheap prices, and they have Flextronics build the devices in their slave-labor shops in Mexico.

Taking a loss... Sure.

Re:I don't want to buy MS products/.

[tarball_]

In fact Flextronics has recently moved production of the X-Box to China. Where wages are even lower then in Mexico and labor law is even more of a joke. This is how the price drop of the X-Box was payed for.

Literally you have blood on your hands when you buy an X-Box!

Re:I don't want to buy MS products/.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, you're right! I'm not going to buy 50 Xbox's, that'll show em!

Re:I don't want to buy MS products/.

[gazbo]

Literally you have blood on your hands when you buy an X-Box

Literally? So if you buy an X-Box and then look down you will find that your hands have a red liquid on them? Or by 'literally' did you actually mean an antonym such as 'figuratively'?

Re:I don't want to buy MS products/.

[Hobophile]

Many of the parts are quite OLD. That includes the hard drive, RAM, CPU, and now even the GPU.

The problem with this is your assumption that as computer parts get older, they get cheaper. While this would likely be the case if companies like Intel continued to produce the same volume of their older chips while simultaneously producing newer and faster ones, this is not what happens in the industry.

As manufacturers introduce newer products, they steadily ramp down production on older models, for obvious reasons -- they have a limited production capacity, and there is no point in using most of it on obsolete products that are no longer in high demand. Thus, while the price on e.g. a Pentium 800 will decline as faster processors come out, it will never converge on $0. At some point the manufacturer will halt and even increase the cost of the part to compensate for the revenue they may have gained making a better/faster model.

Go visit www.pricewatch.com and look at the CPU prices. Sure, for the most part the Pentium IIIs cost less than the Pentium 4s, but not uniformly so (ignoring the Tualatin models which are a special case). Compare particularly the Pentium 4 1.5 GHz part with the Pentium III 850.

Same holds for hard drives. You're not going to find a new hard drive for under $50 regardless of whether or not models with 3x the capacity are available for $10 more.

And don't even start with RAM -- the prices there are quite volatile and as likely to increase as not, though certainly the long term trend is down. Older most definitely does not equal cheaper in this area, either.

So yes, it's true that Microsoft's costs have gone down, but I would argue that the decline in costs is not as significant as you seem to believe, and certainly far from being "dirt cheap."

Re:I don't want to buy MS products/.

[PierceLabs]

The problem is that noone would know how many XBoxes are chipped. Major console game publishers will look at the 'installed base' of a platform to determine its viability - not whether or not the platform is chipped. No one is going to order market research from mod chip manufacturers, and regardless - modding the XBox doesn't make it incapable of playing the content they are shipping.

Re:I don't want to buy MS products/.

[_Spirit]

You're partly right. *You* can't get older and cheaper stuff to build say, a cheap linux box or something like that.

But if you were to buy these older parts in bulk it wouldn't only be possible to buy older and less powerful parts but it would be a lot cheaper as well. If a manufacturer can produce on his already written off obsolete production line at the request of a large buyer (this means they will sell *everything*) he can produce at a very low cost with a very small overhead, so the buyer can get very low prices.

Re:I don't want to buy MS products/.

[Hobophile]

If a manufacturer can produce on his already written off obsolete production line at the request of a large buyer (this means they will sell *everything*) he can produce at a very low cost with a very small overhead, so the buyer can get very low prices.

I see your point, but just to play Devil's advocate here: what's stopping Intel/Nvidia or whoever from gouging the heck out of Microsoft on pricing for the Xbox's particular processor/motherboard?

If I (as a hypothetical large manufacturer) know that Microsoft needs to buy a product whose supply I control, I certainly might be tempted to maximize profits regardless of whether or not my actual cost to produce the part had come down over time.

Nvidia almost certainly won't adopt such a strategy; they need Microsoft much more than Microsoft needs them, and the near certainty that Microsoft would go with ATI for Xbox2 if Nvidia didn't cater to Microsoft's needs is undoubtedly a strong argument in favor of passing along any and all cost savings.

Intel can probably afford to be a little less tractable, though I imagine if AMD weren't such a constant threat (at least on the performance level) they might be more inclined to reap the maximum possible benefits and even increase the price of their processors as time went by.

Re:I don't want to buy MS products/.

[paco verde]

I've got to agree. There's just something slightly twisted and wrong about buying hardware from Microsoft to run Linux on it.

Re:I don't want to buy MS products/.

[isorox]

No one knows how many are chipped when you are looking at 5% of the market, however if 50% of the market are chipped (which would be known and seen from lack of sales of games vs. sales of consoles, and general hearsay), publishers will notice.

Re:I don't want to buy MS products/.

[PierceLabs]

A lack of sales of games vs sales of consoles means nothing other than that your platform has crappy games that noone wants. That's like claiming that the N64 must have obviously be modded because there were mod chips available for it and the tie ratio of games to consoles was poor. And again, why would a publisher care that consoles are modded. Just because a console is modded doesn't mean that you aren't playing games on it. I consider that far less likely than for someone to be modding a console and using it as a webserver or browsing platform.

Re:I don't want to buy MS products/.

[Trogre]

You must remember: that word has been literally picked up and thrown around until it's significance is reduced to literally smaller than a grape.

Stupidity

[e8johan]

If M$ was so determined to build a console and prevent people from running *nix and other fun stuff on it, *why* did they choose a (nearly) standard PC hardware platform. Please provide a more custom solution next time to give the hackers a real challenge ;-)

Re:Stupidity

[Da Fokka]

Frankly I think that if Microsoft wanted the X-box to be unhackable (or, at least, less hackable), they would have opted for a more custom solution.

For Microsoft, an X-box being capable of running PS2 games would be extremely useful but obviously they can't make an XBox run PS2 games themselves. So now they let the hacker community do it for 'em...

Re:Stupidity

[e8johan]

Judging from how much resistance M$ has put up against the modding of XBoxes (required to run XBox Linux currently), I don't think that they are trying to let the hacker community to do it for them.

In that case it would be easier to make the PS2 run XBox games, as it has a known HW (and an official Linux distro available). The biggest problem is that the XBox runs an x86 and the PS2 an MIPS CPU. This means that you have to some translation magic (either emulation or recompilation) in order to run stuff for one machine on the other.

One of the advantages of having Linux for both systems, and open source games is that you can recompile them for either system. Also propetary games can take advantage of this by having the same environment on both systems, just re-compile, make a CD (or DVD) with a small Linux kernel + drivers and the game for each platform. All they have to distribute is the Linux source. This removes the need for paying M$ for an expensive, restictively licensed, SDK.

Re:Stupidity

[Da Fokka]

I can see the advantages of an X-Box running Linux, next to the sole fact that it's pretty cool in it's own right.

There are several major game engines out there (like Unreal, for instance) that are cross-platform and most developers would choose such an engine over a linux based version for development (we did).

Next to that, porting X-box games to PS2 would be a problem because from a hardware point of view the X-Box is superior to the PS2 (memory, to name one very important factor).

Re:Stupidity

[warmcat]

Its not clear actually that MS have put up ANY resistance to the modding of Xboxes, other than changing the hardware recently to be incompatible with existing mods.

Certainly no one on the Xbox Linux team has heard a peep out of them, and of the three instances of MS apparently weighing in (a modchip company decided not to make their chip, Xbox Mame, and recently Lik-Sang going almost imperceptibly quiet), only the Xbox Mame one is certain to have come from MS. That apparently took the form of some communication objecting to binaries produced by a pirated XDK, which were then taken down. The other two instances may well have nothing to do with MS on closer inspection.

I think they are very concerned about negative PR snowballing, alienating the consumer and tainting the MS 'brand' as being arrogant, monopolist and exploitative. Truth will out!

Re:Stupidity

[Anonymous Coward]

*why* did they choose a (nearly) standard PC hardware platform

... because the XBox is the test bed for Palladium ? Once they get a working "protection" scheme, it'd be ported over to the PC (or most probably: the PC architecture would be adapted for it).

Re:Stupidity

[billcopc]

M$ isn't doing much to prevent modding/hacking. I think after 20 years in the biz, they know better than to alienate the guys who have the most volatile income for these toys. Think for a moment, they could:

a. Sue everything out of existence and have hordes of angry geeks not buying XBoxes, and telling their friends/relatives to buy a PS2 instead. And we all know that friends/relatives are always asking their fellow geeks for this stuff.

-or-

b. Let us do whatever we want, with some people even buying the XBox just for the sake of modding it, and later realizing that it can run games and blowing another 300$ on software. And we'll all keep telling our friends that it's the greatest thing since Kazaa pr0n.

If it were any asian corporation, things might be different because they tend to be brainwashed and out-of-touch, but this is M$, Bill fucking Gates, El Nerdo Grandé. Surely his minions have learned which way to rub our fur..

Re:Stupidity

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you're missing the point. The goal is not to build a highly customized game platform that will never be figured out. The goal is for Microsoft to have quick entry into a new market. Sony has been in the console business for years, they have their own fabrication plant to build their own chips (not cheap, and takes time to build, etc.). Microsoft has simply chosen the quick path to their goal (building a console that can be used to muscle into a new market) by using commodity computer parts. Such parts are immediately available in large quantities, so Microsoft can hit the ground running.

It amuses me to see how many slashdotters think the geek world is going to make a dent in Microsoft's existence by buying Xbox consoles and (gasp!) not buying any games for it, then using it to run Linux, thus forcing Microsoft to subsidize the hardware puchase (at their own expense). Microsoft is simply too wealthy to be bothered by a few hundred (even a few thousand?) of geeks who buy a cheap PC called an Xbox. Microsoft could freely give consoles away on the street corner for the next year and hardly be worse for wear.

Re:Stupidity

[tsa]

That's not stupid, that's brilliant marketing. The fact that you can run Linux on it will now be a reason to buy an X-box, so MS now earns money with Linux, and it didn't cost them anything! Bill never ceases to amaze me.

Re:Stupidity

[Jondor]

Well, not realy. If I recall correctly they lose money on the hardware which should be made up for by the games.. and since an xbox running mandrake will not run xbox games they lose..

Re:Stupidity

[N3WBI3]

How about shutting down Lik Sang for selling mod chips for the xboc

Re:Stupidity

[tsa]

But if you want to run Linux you would buy a PC. It's no use buying an X-box just to run Linux on it. And if you want a game console only then maybe you buy a PS/2 or something else. It's the combination game console/Linux that does the trick.

Re:Stupidity

[Anonymous Coward]

I recently build a PC at similar cost, well with a low end onboard video/audio.
$40 MB onboard everything (no modem),
$40 CPU (1.1G Duron),
$50 cast cost $50 (sign),
$145 1G 133 SDRAM,
$45 40G/7200 HD,
$9 40x CDROM (refurb)
$329 + S&H

Well if it is not the RAM, it probably cost much less. And I assume MS can get better deal on every parts, MD to them probably cost about $20 or so only even with all the chips. I don't think they are lossing money. They might break even after you factor in all the distribution cost and ad.
Or lose a bit on the ad. side which is fix cost.

Re:Stupidity

[Anonymous Coward]

The more controversy and attention it gets from anyone, the more Xbox gains legitimacy. Get it? In a way they are paying for advertising.

Re:Stupidity

[Crockerboy]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but on what grounds would Microsoft have for shutting down mod chip manufacturers? It would be like Ford shutting down one of the hundreds of after market shops out there that tinker with their mustangs. I just don't see it.

Re:Stupidity

[b1t r0t]

It's the combination game console/Linux that does the trick.

Ah, I see.

Re:Stupidity

[N3WBI3]

Because the mod chips do not fint in MS buisness model..Ford selles me a mustang in a cash+ manner. If ford relied on sales of Gasoline and Oil after the sale to make money they would want to sut down anyone who sold thies things and kept ford out of the $ loop..

Re:Stupidity

[pmz]

The biggest problem is that the XBox runs an x86 and the PS2 an MIPS CPU.

Is it possible to translate already-compiled x86 code directly to MIPS code? This would allow parts of an XBox game to run natively on the PS2, and interfacing software could make the PS2 appear like an XBox to the translated code.

I know this is far from trivial, but it is interesting.

Re:Stupidity

[corey_lawson]

No, x86->MIPS is one challenge, the bigger challenge would be converting NVidia GPU code to the PS2's GPU code.

Re:Stupidity

[Saeger]

Repeat after me: It is not a courts job to preserve broken business models!

--

Re:Stupidity

[zapfie]

You're right, it's not, but that's not what's happening here. The modchips that were being sold plagiarize large portions of the existing X-box BIOS bit for bit, and THAT is what Microsoft is upset about. If they had written their own from scratch, there wouldn't have been a problem.

Re:Stupidity

[N3WBI3]

Never said it did chunky, I take alot of fire here for Bitching about MS using the courts for the XBox

Re:Stupidity

[Trogre]

Not really. XBoxes sell at below cost, with the profit coming from game licensing.

Buying an XBox doesn't directly result in any profit for MS. Though some might argue that it would be better to just not buy the damned thing in the first place.

Re:Stupidity

[Rainier Wolfecastle]

Except of course that the Beast is losing money on each Xbox sold.

New Sourceforge Project

[youngerpants]

The first one to get CP/M running on the XBox will gain true kudos.

10 PRINT "Microsoft really wouldnt like this"
20 GO TO 10
RUN

Re:New Sourceforge Project

[sg_oneill]

by youngerpants on Tuesday October 08, @06:01PM (Score:1, Offtopic) (#4408767)
(User #255314 Info) [ Neutral ]
The first one to get CP/M running on the XBox will gain true kudos.

10 PRINT "Microsoft really wouldnt like this"
20 GO TO 10
RUN

Ah... Teen moderators... Don'chya lovem "What's CPM got to do with this?". (Hint read some IT history books kids.)

Re:New Sourceforge Project

[Anonymous Coward]

aww come on mod the parent up, bloody hell offtopic my arse!

Re:New Sourceforge Project

[Alien Being]

lol

Yogi: Hey BooBoo, watch me run CP/M on this X-Box.
BooBoo: Ranger Bill isn't gonna like this.

Re:New Sourceforge Project

[Raiford]

Hey if someone does get CP/M running on it old Bill might get a tear in his eye with all the nostalgia.

Why?

[miffo.swe]

Even if its nice and fun that they have made it possible why would i want to run linux on X-box? All they really do is helping MS finetuning their DRM system before it gets to he PC. It will be a cold day in hell before i buy an Xbox.

Re:Why?

[DJProtoss]

Why? Because you can have a small, quiet, nicely put together server box for around £140 + modchip costs (which if you are handy with a solder, are quite small).

Re:Why?

[oever]

I agree completely.

These people would be much wiser if they'd port linux to all these different PDA devices. That's a hot market right now.

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because if they chose exotic hardware they'd get another competetor; NetBSD.

Re:Why?

[JavaTHut]

This has probably already been asked many times already, but, didn't Sony release a Playstation Linux kit? Why arn't we supporting their efforts and buying that instead of pouring so much effort into a mircro~1 solution?

~Ravi

Re:Why?

[blibbleblobble]

All they really do is helping MS finetuning their DRM system before it gets to he PC.

Very true. However, they are also demonstrating legitimate uses of mod-chips, legitimate uses of hacking proprietry hardware, and legitimate reasons for cracking hardware protection. Best of all, they are doing so in a manner which can easily be recognised by the general public (of which judges are a subset) - "Cracking hardware is good: look, you get to run this mainstream, competitive, and popular OS distribution.

A couple years ago, you'd have taken a modchip to court and the judge would say, "well yes, this is just for playing illegal games isn't it", but now you can take the same modchip along and the judge will see "yeah, that can be used to load the office-suite my son uses". Big difference.

Re:Why?

[Evil MarNuke]

Because most of us already have a Playstation and there is no fun in reinventing the wheel.

Re:Why?

[wunderhorn1]

There are quite a few PDAs that run Linux. None of them have been superior (usability-wise) to devices running PalmOS or even WinCE.

Re:Why?

[3th3rn3t]

server for what ? what kind of availability will it have ? 0.001% or so ..
great!

Re:Why?

[refactored]

To peeve the Microsoft marketing department.

It must _hurt_ to see XBOX Linux page rank 2 slots higher on a Google search for xbox than M$'s own site....

Re:What's better?

[Anonymous Coward]

What's better?

(a) A Mandrake Linux for X-Box project

or

(b) Sex with a mare?

xbox owners can now use linux

[joeler]

Considering the lack of great games, the linux distro on the xbox will help cut the loses for those people that purchased it thinking there would be this great exodus from the PS2 to the xbox by the great game makers.

Re:xbox owners can now use linux

[Anonymous Coward]

And is that because Linux supports so many cool games?

Interesting indeed

[zeekiorage]

...it contains the graphical environments Gnome and KDE, as well as software packages such as OpenOffice.org, XMMS and Mozilla.

and all this in only 350 mb!! I wonder if I can download and install it on my pc ;). BTW the press release is here

Re:Interesting indeed

[Anonymous Coward]

and all this in only 350 mb!! I wonder if I can download and install it on my pc ;)

Yes, you can download it and install it on your PC. It's called either Debian GNU/Linux, Slackware or Linux From Scratch, depending on the amount of work you prefer.

But what's better

[Anonymous Coward]

(a) a Mandrake Linux for X-box project

or

(b) Sex with a mare?

Re:What's better?

[Anonymous Coward]

this mare isn't too bad. Mmmmm.

Still needs modifications though

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a pity though: To be able to use Xbox Linux Mandrake 9.0, you need a "modded" Xbox ... and why feed Microsoft?

Motivation?

[Opiuman]

Personally I think that the fine fine hackers of the Xbox Linux project have done a great job. Part of their motivation is the $200,000 prize, another part of the motivation is that Micro$oft is losing a bundle on each Xbox sold for which no games are bought -- but -- IMHO the bigger parts of the motivation is the pure hacking challenge and the quest for freedom in using hardware you own.

Idiot

[Anonymous Coward]

They lose even more money every time an X-Box sits on a warehouse shelf instead of being sold.

Buying an X-Box does not "stick it" to Microsoft.

Re:Idiot

[BoomerSooner]

Actually you're wrong.

When you buy an XBox and MS subsidizes the cost of manufacturing that system they lose money. To keep XBoxes available for sale, more are manufactured and set on the shelf.

Here's some simple math (idiot).
Parts $250 + Labor $100 = $350
Price at BestBuy $199
Price BestBuy owes for Xbox $149

350 - 150 = 200
That would be a $150 loss per system
not to mention the total loss on the
next built system setting on the
shelf.

Oh well. I guess when RCA sells a TV
or Ford sells a car they just fold up
shop and don't build anymore. Dipshit AC.

Re:Idiot

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's some simple math (idiot).

Your intellectual superiority would be more impressive if you could back up those numbers with recent official information. I've heard just as many arguments by others who also conveintly can't back it up that lowering component cost has resulted in next to no money loss per console at this point.

Re:Idiot

[FreeUser]

Your intellectual superiority would be more impressive if you could back up those numbers with recent official information. I've heard just as many arguments by others who also conveintly can't back it up that lowering component cost has resulted in next to no money loss per console at this point.

Good point ... numbers like that should be backed up by some kind of reference. Indeed, the numbers presented appear (unfortunately) to be exaggerated. According to estimates by Credit Suisse First Boston, M$ is only losing $20-$40/box. Still, if a million GNU/Linux users buy them as cheap Linux consoles, that's $20 million-$40 million dollars taken from 'The Man.' :-)

Credit Suisse First Boston analyst George Gilbert estimated Microsoft's hardware subsidy at $20 to $40 per Xbox, putting the company on track to make money on the Xbox sooner than expected.

Source

Of course, even this still begs the question, where is the rigorous analasys from which those estimates were derived, and when? As you correctly point out, what may have been a $40 loss in January might well be break-even today.

Re:Idiot

[pommaq]

*sigh*

Really, it's not about grade-school math (parts + labor = cost). The AC was correct - if you really want to "stick it to The Man", don't buy the box! Most of the calculated cost for an XBox is a fixed initial expense. Setting up a plant, manufacturing, and retailing process is incredibly costly and this cost is projected over the range of consoles you intend to sell. The more consoles you sell, the lesser the cost, since setting up production was a one-time expense - plus the parts get cheaper over time, especially if you buy in large quantities. I would not be surprised if MS are already starting to show a small profit from the sale of the base console itself.

xbox ?

[oliverthered]

In my neck of the woods it's called the Halo Player.

Others simply call it an 'X' - box.

Easy

[Anonymous Coward]

XBox Linux -> Bochs -> CP/M-86

Why not?

[Rogerborg]

Why not? Buy ten of them, then smash them to bits. Every one you buy takes money directly out of Bill-n-Steve's pockets and away from their DRM project. Just don't buy any games

Re:Why not?

[will_die]

Except they have more money then me, and each sale goes on record as another person who has one.

Re:Why not?

[Quixote]

Why not? Buy ten of them, then smash them to bits. Every one you buy takes money directly out of Bill-n-Steve's pockets and away from their DRM project. Just don't buy any games

sigh... this comes up every time there's a discussion on the X-box. Your logic would make sense if there was an infinite supply of X-boxes. The fact is, the number of X-boxes being manufactured is limited (and finite, as are all things in this Universe except, possibly, human stupidity). If you buy an X-box, it moves off the shelf and the manufacturer gets $300 ($100 from MS, and $200 from you). If you don't buy it, it sits on the shelf and the manufacturer is out $300. An X-box sitting on the shelf for 1 year will end up costing the manufacturer an additional (say) $50 in interest and other costs, maybe much more.

If you really want to hurt MS (and I am not saying that one should; I'm just answering this hypothetically), then the best way to do it is to (a) not buy X-box at all, (b) convince others to not buy either, and (c) (this might be illegal) buy an X-box and return it after opening it.

Re:Why not?

[SubtleNuance]

Someone help me out here;

Better than buying them (costing me $) and smashing them, couldnt i goto ToysRus with a tiny gauss gun or somthing up my sleeve (magnet) and zap all the lovely HDs on the Xboxes? could you fry the harddrive on teh xbox to the point where it wouldnt run?

if i did this it would
A) cost ToyRUs to return/handle etc, reducing profits on Xbox, making ToysRUs un-favourable to MS consoles
B) cost M$ money because they have to handle returns etc
C) Give xbox a black eye to gamers who would see xbox as crappy (defective) hardware, dropping sales

this has been my little fantasy for some time - can anyone tell me if it is at all possible?

Re:Why not?

[Anonymous Coward]

> If you really want to hurt MS (and I am not saying that one should; I'm just answering this hypothetically), then the best way to do it is to (a) not buy X-box at all, (b) convince others to not buy either, and (c) (this might be illegal) buy an X-box and return it after opening it.

Niggling small point here, but most smaller stores (EB, Gamestop, KB, etc) will not accept returns on opened systems. The reasoning, IIRC, is to prevent 'weekend warriors' from basically getting a free rental system and then returning the beast on Monday to get their $200 back. They cannot legally resell systems with broken factory seals as 'new' systems, so they have to ship 'em back to whoever, which I assume was your premise, but any returned xboxes would surely be wiped with a cloth and sold at (small, $20) discount as 'refurbished' systems.

Re:Why not?

[Rogerborg]

Gosh, that would be illegal. I certainly would recommend that you don't click here to find out how to do it.

Re:Why not?

[Anonymous Coward]

whats is DRM, HW, and CP/M
sori i just need that to be clarified

If only...

[TheVidiot]

Is anyone working on bringing Xbox emulation to the PC? Wouldn't that make more sense?

Re:If only...

[Gabrill]

One would think . . . Probably next year, PC's will be powerfull enough to emulate a 700mhz cpu, and a VGA or less resolution NVidia graphics card.

Re:If only...

[13Echo]

I'm sorry, but was that a joke? I really hope so.

It is a slightly tweaked Celeron machine with a slightly tweaked nVidia GPU. What kind of "emulation" must you do other than some BIOS routines?

Re:If only...

[uchian]

I thought the processor was PC compatable though - why emulate when it will run on the hardware anyway?

The solution to runnning the x-box games on a pc would simply be figuring out any custom API's the xbox has and implementing them, like wine does.

Re:If only...

[Anonymous Coward]

You have to emulate the Xbox API as well.

Re:If only...

[|Cozmo|]

I heard that the data on the game discs is backwards and that the dvd-rom in the xbox spins backwards. (the spirals go the opposite way).

They have 1 session that is readable by normal dvd drives containing a video that says to put the disc in an xbox. The rest of the data isn't readable by a pc. Perhaps if people figured out how to get the xbox dvdrom running on their pc it could be done. Maybe it has already and I just don't know.

Re:If only...

[EvilBudMan]

Yeea..I'm working on the secret mod chip code named FuBar to allow the PC DVD player to load XboX games.

Whoop's, Oh I forgot about the DMCA. Never Mind!

Re:If only...

[theLOUDroom]

I don't think that spin thing is true.
I think some people may have been successful getting normal PC DVD ROMS to work in an xbox (not sure though)

There is method in the M$ madness

[ites]

"Why choose a (nearly) standard PC platform"?
Microsoft are long-distance players.
They are designing a Microsoft PC platform.
Let's call it 'Fritz 1'.
They would really like this to become the next standard.
And by trying this out in the XBox arena they are proofing the concept.
Whatever weaknesses get thrown up now will be closed in the next release.
After three releases, the design will be unbreakable.
After that, it's a minor matter to convince Dell and HP to base their PCs on this design.
And Windows XP 2003 will not run on anything else.
If the XBox does not scare you, perhaps you should consider a future where all PCs are designed by Redmond.
It would be smarter for people to leave the XBox alone and not contribute to M$'s strategy by hacking it.

Re:There is method in the M$ madness

[mr3038]

If the XBox does not scare you, perhaps you should consider a future where all PCs are designed by Redmond.

PCs will be PCs in the future too. It might be that you cannot run Windows on a PC anymore in the future. I really don't understand the difference between this new Microsoft XBox and normal x86 PC if they really decided to offer Windows for XBox only. XBox, even in its current form, has all the processor power the casual office worker needs and if companies can get their boxes for less than 250 euros then they should go for it. But some workers doing 3D stuff and simulations do need more processing power than that XBox can offer. So MS needs to offer multiple versions of this new XBox because companies are not going to pay for features they aren't using--at least I hope so. If this new XBox does have replaceable Xcpu, Xmemory, Xmotherboard and Xpci cards then how it's different from a reqular PC? It's not like we have a single identical bus between first x86 PC and todays PC either and we still consider those as the same architecture.

The only thing to fear is that general use PCs could have really high price tag because all the normal people buy the XBox New Technology (pun intended) instead.

Re:There is method in the M$ madness

[Martigan80]

Bravo, I can't say it better. Kinda reminds you of how win 3.1 progressed to 95 and how 95 got to 98. All the bug hunting was done by the users, that's why MS released Service packs for free. But of course this is going to change since it does cost MS allot of money to bug fix!

Thanx again.

Re:There is method in the M$ madness

[Bohnanza]

The ones who have the most to fear are gamers, not casual office workers.

Microsoft's strategy is to corner the gaming-hardware market. If the X-box becomes the only console available, we will see the end of "Direct X" on the PC. Windows will be rigged to choke on anything but the most rudimentary game software. Anyone who wants to play a game will be forced to buy an X-box.

Re:There is method in the M$ madness

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone who wants to play a game will be forced to buy an X-box.

Or, buy a Macintosh, a Sparc box, an SGI workstation, an IBM RS/6000, or something else. These systems all cost about the same as a top-end game system, and can run either a vendor-proprietary operating system or Your Choice of free Unixes.

And I think 3D and multimedia support would become a priority on these systems if noone can play games on their Windows box!

I'd love to watch Micros~1 shoot themselves in the foot. :-)

Re:There is method in the M$ madness

[MeNeXT]

I think he is talking about the DRM, not the PC. If in the future you are required to buy an Xbox systems instead of a generic PC to run windows then you can sya bye-bye to the lowcost PC and hello to the EXPENSIVE Xbox.

Re:There is method in the M$ madness

[Anonymous Coward]

All the bug hunting was done by the users,

Name one software company that doesn't rely on its users to do bug testing. Name one piece of software (besides Hello World) that was released at 1.0 and never needed an updated to fix bugs.

Re:There is method in the M$ madness

[kubrick]

And Windows XP 2003 will not run on anything else.

That's probably what they're planning, but given their previous record it'll take until XBox 3 & WinXP 2006 for it to actually work properly. :)

Re:There is method in the M$ madness

[Melantha_Bacchae]

ites wrote:

> And Windows XP 2003 will not run on anything
> else.
> If the XBox does not scare you, perhaps you
> should consider a future where all PCs are
> designed by Redmond.

Close, but you do not go far enough. The only XBox application Microsoft could get developers for was as a game console, but that was never the original intention. Originally XBox was to be the home terminal to .Net, and eventually, Microsoft's OS for the next Millennium (http://research.microsoft.com/research/sn/Millenn ium/mgoals.html especially "What would such a system be like?").

Like online gaming, you would pay Microsoft a monthly fee. You would also pay for use of any extra features in your software, and of course, for access to secure files (music, etc.). The initial hardware cost would be far cheaper than a PC, but the monthy and usage payments would be mostly profit for Microsoft.

Programs and your data would exist across the distributed net. You could run Office.Net, just about any application or game written for .Net and Millenium. Better watch your monthly bill, though, because it is going to be worse than your phone bill, and probably as big a surprise.

> It would be smarter for people to leave the XBox
> alone and not contribute to M$'s strategy by
> hacking it.

Most definitely. Microsoft could point to Linux users using it as a regular computer and say to its developers: "See, they are using it to run other programs." As long as the XBox is only a game console and a failed one at that, Microsoft's plans for it will fail as well.

Shinoda: "The age of Millennium."
Io: "What does that mean?"
Shinoda: "A thousand year kingdom. It wants to create a home for itself. There is one flaw in its plan: Godzilla."
"Godzilla 2000 Millennium" (Japanese version)

G Countdown: 21 days (www.godzillaoncube.com)

Re:There is method in the M$ madness

[ntp]

> And Windows XP 2003 will not run on anything else.

Who says that I have to upgrade? Win2k works so why should anyone upgrade? Just Say No to forced software upgrades.

Re:There is method in the M$ madness

[b1t r0t]

If in the future you are required to buy an Xbox systems instead of a generic PC to run windows then you can sya bye-bye to the lowcost PC and hello to the EXPENSIVE Xbox.

If that happened, someone would be very happy. And very happy to sell you a computer without DRM.

Re:There is method in the M$ madness

[Joe Tie.]

If that happened, someone [apple.com] would be very happy. And very happy to sell you a computer without DRM.

And microsoft would likley be very happy to pull out apples life support of microsoft products if they tried.

Re:There is method in the M$ madness

[MeNeXT]

How is that? I have both and find Mac more expensive than PC's, but I do not wish to get into that discussion. Apples past experiance shows (Quicktime) how they will act.

Re:There is method in the M$ madness

[pjt48108]

Step 1: (M$) Close Windows XP 2003 to all but Redmond/M$ PCs

Step 2: (M$)Infuriate the industry

Step 3: (APPL)Release Marklar

Step 4: (APPL)Profit!

Re:There is method in the M$ madness

[Anonymous Coward]

> After three releases, the design will be unbreakable.

Like Windows 3.0, Windows ME, etc.

Re:There is method in the M$ madness

[Theom]

But how many companies do sell alpha and beta grade software as final?

Re:There is method in the M$ madness

[ngoy]

Yeah, sure, the only company that controls both hardware and OS, and they will be happy to sell a computer without DRM? I suspect they are WAY farther ahead with it, just that no one knows it yet. Remember, the bulk of the "artsy" types use Macs, and they are the ones that want their stuff protected (Like when you PAY to get your kid's pictures or wedding pictures, but the photographer owns the copyright to YOUR picture. That is a load of crap.) Adobe Photoshop has digital watermarking built in, you think that is hark to put into a regular software or even a hardware product?

And then for every minor os upgrade Apple comes out with, you will have to pay $100.

"Here's the OSXI .3 upgrade. That's $130. Oh, you have 11.2 already? That's nice. This is the NEW 11.3 version. That will be $130 please."

Shango

Re:There is method in the M$ madness

[corey_lawson]

No, the real fear was presented by Stewart Alsop a few years ago in an April Fool's article in InfoWorld magazine. The real fear in an XBox PC is that EVERYTHING in the box becomes controlled by Microsoft. Gamers might be affected first, but OpenSource developers would (because it would then require license fees to get specs for whatever interface or protocol someone is trying to write to), 3rd-party hardware providers would then have to cough up the same fees to provide their HW for the new computers, and MS would then definitely be able to shape the Internet to their needs. Bye bye TCP/IP, hello MSTCP/IP (or whatever replaces it). Hello MS licenses for software development tools that explicitly say "this product cannot be used to develop software under any terms besides this:", yadayadayada.

Re:There is method in the M$ madness

[Anonymous Coward]

> After that, it's a minor matter to convince Dell and HP to base their PCs on this design.

Why would they bother to do that. Like the XBox, MS will get cheap sweatshops in the far east to put them together from components made at marginal costs under MS contracts.

Having established the distribution channels with XBox, the XPC will follow. Selling the XPC this way will eliminate all the intermediaries and allow MS to price an XPC below any conventional PC made by Dell or HP and all MS to keep _all_ the profit instead of having to share with 'partners'.

If HP and Dell go down the river then it will be because they didn't 'commit' enough to MS's vision.

Eventually XPC will be the only available machine. This is standard MS business model.

I shouldn't ask but...

[thogard]

What would happen if someone was to approach MS as a game developer and officaly port this so its got all the real stuff and so MS can sell it at K-mart or wherever. I know its wrong on so many levels but it would get around the mod chip issue and be legal (assuming the licenses allow it)

Re:I shouldn't ask but...

[mikeee]

Well, you couldn't rebuild that official port without MS's secret X-Box key; to my mind, that makes it part of the source code, and thus distribution without it should be prohibited for GPLed software.

So I think you'ld have to have a non-GPL bootloader for this to work.

Otherwise it migh tbe ok.

This is an empty victory

[ites]

Running Linux on the XBox helps no-one except Microsoft.
Microsoft are counting on this kind of project to test the XBox security.
And when all the weaknesses have been fixed we will find ourselves with a new closed PC platform.
Leave this thing alone, boycott it, let it rot.
It is an empty victory to help M$ improve this product.

Re:This is an empty victory

[flamingdog]

really now, do you believe what you're saying? I mean look at Windows for example. Keep that in your mind and repeat to yourself what you're saying. "when all the weaknesses have been fixed" is not on the MS project calender anywhere, my boy.

Re:This is an empty victory

[nenolod]

I agree with the original post. The information that these people release just help microsoft to fine tune their DRM system. This information will most likely be used in the research for Palladium, and eventually Palladium will take over, and we will all be enslaved to MS.

Re:This is an empty victory

[CaptTrips]

Maybe for newer model Xboxs. But Microsoft can't implement this on older models. Unlike Windows, the Xbox is isolated from the web (unless you hook yourself up to XboxLive). There's no mecanism for Microsoft to do anything to your Xbox. Which is probably going to lead to these first and second generation Xboxs being worth a load of money on auction sites.

Re:This is an empty victory

[AlexMax2742]

You seem to forget that if someone finds a security hole in Windows, Microsoft doesn't really lose anything. It's the end users who lose out on the deal. Thusly, Microsoft would not give two squirts of piss about releasing a fix for it, because it's not their assets that is getting screwed over.

However, when you chip and put Linux on an Xbox, you are robbing Microsoft of their revanue by not getting any games (that give them royalties) for it. And if you even take one piece of gold from the figurative Smaug, it will rise up and (attempt to) crush you with it's pinkie finger.

mini-distro

[TheJZA]

I alwso want to t know if this is something more like the mini-distro that openbrick use. A mandrake mini-distro anad a FreeBSD mini distro.

check http://www.openbrick.org
http://www.openbrick.org /download/freebsd
and http://www.openbrick.org/Members/jp/mini-mdk.tar.b z2/view

Bush's speech

[Anonymous Coward]

Any thing george has said can be applied to the US itselves ...

Maybe I'll get an XBox, then

[Jeppe Salvesen]

So, if I do get an xbox, I can have Bill Gates sponsor my hardware, and I will have a GNU-based development platform for making video-games? I realize they won't be speedy yet, nor run on non-chipped xboxes, but I will be able to use it for games development, right?

Can you still play games?

[ultrafunkula]

Sorry if this is a really obvious question, but can you still play XBOX games if you install Linux on the hard disk?
As I understand it the hard disk is used by games as a swap file, and all your save games are kept on it.
Can you upgrade your hard disk and keep all your XBOX savegames, and have Linux too?

Re:Can you still play games?

[ultrafunkula]

Ah, after a bit of research in the FAQs, I've found the answer to my question:

Will I still be able to play games once Linux is on my hard disk?
That depends on the solution you choose. If you run Linux through the XBE bootloader on an Xbox with a modchip, there's a dual-boot solution.
There are also "Live CD's" that make it possible possible to run Linux from a CD without having your hard disk modified at all.
If you use the replacement ROM method, you would have to install both ROMs in parallel to be still able to run games.

Pipe dream

[Fnagaton]

Microsoft will find it very difficult, if not impossible, to quash the availability of XBox mod chips. Microsoft could quite easily create a Linux distro that can run and install on a normal unmodded XBox. This would allow hobbyist programmers to create their own games, much like Sony have done with Linux for the PS2. If MS did this then maybe the trade in XBox mod chips might decrease slightly. For MS this would be a better solution as then the XBox Linux distro could at least run in a secure mode.

Re:Pipe dream

[smart.id]

Are you kidding me? Microsoft would NEVER, EVER make a LINUX distro! Linux is their supreme enemy! It's free! And even if you had to pay for Microsoft's, it's still encouraging people to do Linux. I could maybe see them releasing Visual Basic or something for the Xbox, but Linux? No way.

Rape or Coercion, Anyone? Gross

[Anonymous Coward]

Celebrating immaturity or felonious behavior?
Stupid, ignorant moron.

You know what this is like?

[AltGrendel]

It's like watching a porcupine play with a balloon.

Once M$ really gets going on squashing this, that's it.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Why? Where is the code?

[Anonymous Coward]

Since Lik-Sang is going south,
where can I download the source code for the mod-chips?

Anyone?

real powerful

[g4dget]

[Xbox] consists of very powerful IBM-PC-based hardware

Yeah, 64M, a 733MHz PIII, some slightly outdated nVidia chip, and an 8G hard disk. Real "powerful". See that baby "fly". For the same price, you can get a real PC.

Re:real powerful

[JDBrechtel]

A *real* PC for $200? It'd be close just getting *that* for $200.....much less whatever you consider a real pc.

Re:real powerful

[Pike65]

Still, it does have some pretty impressive specs when it comes to memory bandwidth. See?

Yes! Yes! We know!

[et289807]

How many times do we have to hear that the Xbox runs linux? It ran the linux kernel - L-i-n-u-x. Of *course* is going to run EVERY gosh darn *linux* distribution! Are we going to list ALL the distributions, ONE by ONE? Do we even KNOW them ALL?

Re:Yes! Yes! We know!

[vekotin]

quote:
This is the __first__ complete Linux distribution for the Microsoft Xbox.

Notice the emphasis? I think it's worthwhile information to know who managed to be the first.

Besides - a distribution means simplicity. Simplicity means more people trying this. And from that on, the snowball hopefully starts rolling down. Thus, the big box with x and Linux will be something interesting to try for more than just level 9 and above ubergeeks.

Re:Yes! Yes! We know!

[Anonymous Coward]

Are we going to list ALL the distributions, ONE by ONE?

Nope but we're going to list the first complete one you stupid fuck. :)

Re:Yes! Yes! We know!

[et289807]

I was just being a troll, your being quite immature...

Re:Rape or Coercion, Anyone? Gross

[Anonymous Coward]

I`m sorry, who mentioned rape, again? Apart from you, I mean? Dumbfuck.

XBOX!

[Anonymous Coward]

XBOX yeah xbox linux yeah. Yeah XBOX yeah linux yeah. Now if I only didn't give my xbox to my younger brother up in college I could play oggs and browse the web from my television.

Hey Mr. Gates!

[uberdave]

Um, Mr. Gates, Sir?

You know how all those Linux geeks won't buy windows? Well, I've got this plan that will make them give you $300 apiece. Convince them... No! Dare them that they can't put their precious little operating system on an X-Box. They'll rush out like lemmings to buy X-Boxes to prove you wrong. You'll make a fortune!

Re:Hey Mr. Gates!

[Anonymous Coward]

wasn't it mentioned that ms loses money on x-boxes where games aren't bought ... ?

About Mandrake 9

[mofolotopo]

It farking rocks, I must say. I use linux for my research, but it's still not my main home OS, largely because I had so many difficulties trying to get my sound card to work. Mandrake 9, on the other hand, recognized both of my sound cards immediately, and runs just beautifully. I know it's been said many times before about other distros, but if there ever was a windows-killer Mandrake 9 would be it.

Re:About Mandrake 9

[Anonymous Coward]

yes, just installed mandrake 9 on a public computer in my house of 14 people... mostly full time windows users. All took to it very easily.

Snif. =(

[ZekeG4]

Why are all the consoles become computers? Why would I want Linux on a console? Consoles are for playing!! Hell will freeze over before I buy a console game where I have to install something to play. But I'm sure that's comming soon.

Re:Why? (your answer)

[gosand]

Even if its nice and fun that they have made it possible why would i want to run linux on X-box? All they really do is helping MS finetuning their DRM system before it gets to he PC. It will be a cold day in hell before i buy an Xbox.

I agree, I wouldn't buy one either. But think about this: before Linux (I'll assume GNU/Linux, since it is now a distro) was ported to the Xbox, there was no reason to have a mod chip other than to play pirated games. Now people are hacking it (in the truest sense of the word) and are finding other fun uses for THE HARDWARE THAT THEY BOUGHT. I emphasize that because Microsoft just shut down a company that sold mod chips. They have no right to do this. Once you buy hardware, you own it. Now they might be able to convince a judge that the only reason to have a mod chip is to play pirated games, therefore robbing Microsoft of their money. But with the porting of Linux, it proves that there are non-illegal reasons to want to buy a mod chip.

Not that I think that it will stop Microsoft from bullying people, but it is a start. If you couldn't run the Linux kernel on the Xbox, there would be no other reason to buy a mod chip.

Besides, I think it is cool that people have the skills to do this kind of thing. It is interesting, and proves the power of the "little guy".

Question, Not Flame

[MoThugz]

Why would anyone want to run Linux on XBoxes anyway? What benefits could you possibly get? It's a gaming console for God's sake... you know, for playing games?

There's not even a decent game for Linux yet (and don't give me the Tux Racer lecture), and suddenly people are so keen to get XBoxes to run Linux.

Last I check, Linux's core strength was as a Network OS. And it's damn good at that! Now more and more distros are pushing Linux to be a Desktop OS, which I think is the next step for increased Linux popularity.

I just don't get the point of porting Linux to game consoles such as PS2 and Xbox, just because it has network connectivity, doesn't mean you have to turn it to a server.

For the last time... it's invented to be a gaming console.

Re:Question, Not Flame

[Lukey Boy]

Isn't is pretty obvious that the cost is a factor here? I'm in Canada and an X-Box goes for about three hundred bucks - which is a pretty damned cheap machine that I can throw Linux on. Even if I wanted a seperate machine to run Gnutella on, this is a low-cost way to do that.

Re:Question, Not Flame

[HR Pufnstuf]

Cuz we can. Part of the culture of Linux is to tinker, install, get under the hood, understand how it works.

Re:Question, Not Flame

[cenonce]

Yes, but you can buy a used Celeron or Duron PC for 350 - 500 bucks, and even with a proprietary form factor, it is way more expandable than an X-box (without the hassle of modchips either). You can probably scrounge around your house and find a bunch of usable parts and build your own Celeron or Duron PC for 400 bucks (I know, because I just did it).

I think Linux on an X-box is pretty neat and just goes to show you what a bunch of programmers can do, but it seems to me that if your budget is small and you want to take full advantage of Linux as a network OS, you are better off with a used PC, and leave the X-box for the games. :)

-A

Re:Question, Not Flame

[MoThugz]

Precisely the point! Understand how proper computers work. Mission critical boxes. Of which XBoxes and PS2s are not. They are gaming consoles... powerful or not, multimedia enhanced or otherwise, high bandwidth connectivity or opposite... in the end, they are still gaming consoles.

Correct me if I'm wrong but why hasn't any Linux gods out there attempted porting Linux to where it'll matter more, like for example a Cray supercomputer? Surely there's better use for such a powerful OS other than making an XBox or a PS2 based Apache web server?

As for the cost factor, don't tell me you'd rather buy a state-of-the-art gaming console to run Linux on when you can get a used Celeron or K6 based PC which will suit your server needs more adequately?

Re:Question, Not Flame

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah that's pretty typical around here. Do stupid little shit for fun and totally ignore the real work that still needs to be done. Linux will forever move sideways, being ported to every dumb-ass cpu laden device, but never moving up. Oh well.

God I love staring at that cosole prompt! I could stare and stare for hours. Nice console prompt mmmmmmmmm. Much better than any stupid productivity app, or recreation app.

Re:Why? Where is the code?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it me or do the words "source code" and "mod-chip" don't quite jive. Did you mean to say design schematics?

Custom API's? It's called DIRECTX.

[Anonymous Coward]

XBox is the same thing as a normal PC. The only thing someone would need to do is learn how to get the DVD drives to work with XBox DVDs, and the software to allow the code to execute.. The 3D stuff, all the graphics stuff, is all DirectX on top of a skimped WinCE like OS. Ya know, the OS that everyone avoided on the Dreamcast like the plauge.

Re:Custom API's? It's called DIRECTX.

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, reading the DVD would be the hardest part. IIRC, information on an Xbox dvd is stored some weird way, backwards, I think.

Re:Custom API's? It's called DIRECTX.

[TRACK-YOUR-POSITION]

There's also the small matter that video memory and main memory are the same thing--seems like that would be a significant difference from the PC.

Re:Custom API's? It's called DIRECTX.

[mczak]

Why should that make a difference? Unless you program it directly (and you don't, you use directx) this shouldn't matter at all. Remember, there are also PCs which use the same memory for the cpu and the video - obviously, nforce comes to mind - and these of course just run the same programs as do PCs which don't have shared memory.

Kind of looking forward to it, actually...

[Anonymous Custard]

And Windows XP 2003 will not run on anything else.

Would that violate any of the anti-trust agreements with the justice department (the agreement that lead to XP SP-1?)

I wouldn't mind a Hardware revolution these days, even Microsoft-led, as long as it introduced something completely new and exciting, with new functions and uses.

Besides speed/capacity, have PC's really changed in the past 15 years?

DivX player at last?

[otter42]

Does this mean that I can finally play DivXs on my Xbox?

Woo-hoo!!!

The Truth Will Come Out!

[Phoenix]

The real reason why Microsoft is so dead set against the mod chips for the X-Box.

To keep people like us from installing Linux on the damn things.

Re:The Truth Will Come Out!

[Anonymous Coward]

And when did this piece of information come to be inside your mind?
DUH

Microtel SYSMAR710 800 MHz PC with LindowsOS

[runlvl0]

... $199.86, and it already runs Linux. No modchip required.

VIA C3 800 MHz processor

133 MHz frontside bus

128 MB SDRAM, expandable to 1 GB

133 MHz memory speed

10 GB Ultra-ATA 100 hard drive, 5400 rpm

52x CD-ROM drive

Integrated Trident Blade 3D/Pro Media AGP 4x graphics Up to 8 MB shared video memory

Integrated AC '97 Audio with 3D enhanced sound

Integrated 10/100 Ethernet connection

Micro ATX tower case (14"D x 7"W x 14"H)

Available drive bays: one 5.25-inch external, one 3.5-inch external, one 3.5-inch internal

2 PCI slots

1 ISA slot

High-speed serial port

Parallel port

2 front and 2 rear USB ports

Game port

104-key keyboard

2-button mouse with wheel

Audio port (line-in, line-out, mic-in)

Stereo speakers

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product _id=1957333&cat=41937&type=19&dept=394 4

Re:Microtel SYSMAR710 800 MHz PC with LindowsOS

[thesadmac]

But it has an awful graphics card and awful sound. Though not supreme, the xbox GPU is pretty good. And the nforce sound totally rules.

Plus you can't play DVDs on your system.

Nice it comes with a screen though.

Re:Microtel SYSMAR710 800 MHz PC with LindowsOS

[Junta]

Compared to XBox, that system is crap on all fronts except memory and expansion. The video card is crap, and the VIA C3-800 Mhz, while producing little heat, competes more with a PII-400 than anything approaching it's clock speed. The audio is probably worse than XBox....

MS is not stupid, there is a reason the components as a whole are sold at a loss, it isn't possible to build a complete system with those components that cheap.

All this said, I have no interest in owning an XBox, for games or hacking. They lack good, exclusive titles, and I would rather shell out a little extra for good expandable system that doesn't require 'modchipping' and doesn't inflate MS's market numbers in any form.

Silly Billy

[Kones]

Just explain to little Billy that he has to have the correct version of gcc for his copy of Metal Gear to compile under his kernel. Um, right . . .

Ho hum. Yet another reason to support Microsoft

[swordgeek]

Yep, let's come up with as many ways to support Microsoft, and increase their sales as we can.

That's all that's being done here.

Nobody is going to play with Linux on an Xbox, except the hardcore Linux geeks--the ones who zealously hunt down retailers who sell machines without a MS OS on them. (not to mention trying to get refunds from MS for unused licenses)

Now they've got a reason to run out and buy an Xbox? That's just peachy!

Have fun. I'll be running OSes on my computers, and leaving the game consoles to others.

Linux dedicated counterstrike Xbox server???

[Anonymous Coward]

That is something I'd like to see.
Granted, a couple mods will have to be
made to use the memory card for server settings
and such, and... you'd have to make a new cd/dvd
anytime you wanted to add a map.. BUT...
If it's feasible and worth it, it would be nice
to see. (I'd buy an xbox then.)

On the other hand, a live iso linux distro
that has just enough on it to run a counter strike
server would be cooler.
I have an old 10G that I can put the gamefiles
on. I just want a distro I can shut the power off
to without having to worry about munging any data.
(I have the same data on 2 partitions, only one
of which is used at a time.)

But whatever... I'm just looking for someone ELSE
that is interested in the same project and who
has the time to build the cd.

Quake3?

[ntp]

How's the Quake 3 performance on an Xbox? It might be useful for LAN parties instead of having to haul around a 60lb tower.

Simple observation

[ites]

Look at the number of ways people have found to crack into software.
It is safe to predict that no software protection will ever work.
But hardware protection is already very hard to break.
And it is possible to make it unbreakable.
And IMHO truly we are not far from that point.

Re:Why? (your answer)

[crawling_chaos]

Now they might be able to convince a judge that the only reason to have a mod chip is to play pirated games, therefore robbing Microsoft of their money. But with the porting of Linux, it proves that there are non-illegal reasons to want to buy a mod chip.

Yeah, just like the judge decided that since DeCSS was necessary to play DVDs on Linux, it's OK to distribute it.

Oh, wait...

WineX Would Be Perfect

[rlabarca]

My friend has an XBox, no PC. He is piss poor too. All the cool kids are playing PC games and he wants to join in. After reading this, I thought mandrake and WineX would be perfect. But I can't find any info on if WineX is working under mandrake for XBox, and if X for XBox makes use of the hardware well enough to play games. Anyone have any info? This would make his life a lot more fun.

I'm even willing to buy him the USB keyboard/mouse adapter if it works! (Like I said, he's piss poor).

thanks

Re: Microtel 800 MHz PC with LindowsOS

[runlvl0]

You forgot to tell me that it also doesn't have a DVD player.

I'm not trying to say that a $199 Walmart Linux PC is an XBox, that's not my point. I was responding to the earlier author who maintained that

"A *real* PC for $200? It'd be close just getting [64M, a 733MHz PIII, some slightly outdated nVidia chip, and an 8G hard disk] for $200.....much less whatever you consider a real pc."

and, except for the (admittedly) crappy Trident shared-memory video card, I'll stand by that assessment. More memory, more hard drive space, higher CPU core frequency (and for that matter, higher FSB speed - 133 MHz) and Linux (Lindows OS) is already installed. Same price. Expandable.

For the people who suggest that an XBox would make a kewl inexpensive "server", I simply maintain that you could buy and support Microsoft's product, pay extra to hack it with a mod chip and install a free OS over the one you paid for when you bought the XBox, or you could simply buy and support a Linux PC.

"All this said," hacking an XBox is a pretty neat technical hack, but a lot of effort if all you're trying to do is to save a few bucks on hardware.

N64 is the *real* computing platform

[ohboy-sleep]

So Mandrake is on the XBox? Big deal.

Just last night I picked up 50 magic coins and was able to hack into the Pentagon using Super Mario Sunshine.

Re:N64 is the *real* computing platform

[AlbertSiegel]

I agree... there is no big deal. I would still rather have Linux on a PC. This is as funny as people who ported Linux over to the Dreamcast.... oh yes... even the first PlayStation has Linux!! LOL! You used magic coins to hack into the Pentagon using Super Mario Sunshine? heh.. I went out to a roller disco with King Koopa!

service packs

[Dave_bsr]

Who says that MS will support it forever? They. Won't. So eventually you will have an unsupported OS. Maybe you don't care - but who says some coder won't release a virus that exploits some newly discovered hole in win2K - and MS doesn't patch the hole - win2K is no longer "supported." You Are Screwed.

Forced upgrades? What forced upgrades?

Re:Snif. =(

[Jason O'Neil]

I feel the same way. I have a PC, which runs Mandrake 9.0
Because Mandrake comes with no decent games, I bought a PS2... Now I can play my games easily, without worrying about hard drive space.

I don't know about others but I bought a console so I could play games away from my PC, not so I can use it as a PC away from my PC, that would be pointless, and a waste of money.

hrm.

[Dave_bsr]

I have taken a couple of CSE assembly courses. The answer, as best I know is that this is Possible -- but like climbing Everest is possible, too, it really isn't practical to do every time you want to convert a game. Unless someone's written a bit-by-bit translator, which is possible - you'll probably have to do it by hand. Line by line conversions of binary or assembly. Yuck.

But then again, I don't know quite how emulators work - by translating code line by line or just "faking" a total system to the code they emulate for. Does anybody have experience in emulation?

Re:hrm.

[e8johan]

Most emulators simply fake the entire environment. To allow interaction real devices are mapped to virtual ones.
One interesting point is the Transmeta's Crusoe translates code, line by line, and caches the results, thus has no need to re-translate any code. The biggest problem they had was to emulate the internal state (condition flags, etc.) of the emulated CPU in their own. To solve it they had to use special registers, otherwise they would have lost too much performance.

but...

[Dave_bsr]

But if they lose $XYZ for every system sold - how much do they lose for each system built? Don't they re-imburse the seller before the system is sold? So by the time it hits the shelf, hasn't MS already spent that $20-40? So by not buying, you don't send money back up the pipe - the seller and the manufacturer and MS never see a dime from that XBOX.

It's just an idea - but doesn't that make more sense?

GPU drivers

[robotbrain]

Forgive me if this question has already been answered, but have there been Linux drivers written that will actually use the X-box GPU's 3d acceleration capabilities or is it just software acceleration for now?

SM and TM have no legal standing

[Anonymous Coward]

The only "mark" worth having is the Registered Trademark, the one registered with the unloved Patent Office. It's the only one defendable in court.

Service Mark and Trade Mark have no legal meaning, only that the user intends to sue if you trample on it. In this case, suing does little good.

The Point You Are Missing Is

[cmdr_beeftaco]

Each xbox going to someone for the sole purpose of running linux hurts MS because it removes one more xbox from the pool of contributing to their recurring revenue stream, selling games. Each xbox diverted from its true purpose is a good thing(tm).
The probability of convincing enough people not to buy xbox to make a difference is very small.
There is a very good probability that a significant number of xbox could be diverted from their recurring revenue with a solid linux port.

Re:The Point You Are Missing Is

[Quikah]

Each Xbox bought also goes to the pool of "Xbox sold" which MS uses to market to game developers to code for the Xbox which creates more Xbox games which MS uses to market to the consumer to buy an Xbox.

Optimization

[Espectr0]

The xbos OS (win2k) was supposedly a lean version of win2k so it would run extra fast (didn't need all that support for hardware)

Does the new mandrake just have support for xbox hardware? Or is it a full blown distro?

One Question.

[CaptTrips]

Which character is going to popup when I need help writing a letter in OpenOffice -- Clippy or Tux? Maybe I should play that Clippy vs Tux Xbox game to see who's worthy of being my document writing assistant. ;)

This is great news!

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow! with this startling revolution I can.....um....er......what the hell can I actually use this for again?

Oh, wait. I suppose I could come out of my parent's basement and go tell all my friends that I can......um.....wait, I don't have any friends.

Probably because I'm concerned about installing a worthless freeware operating system on a box designed for console gaming.

Besides, X-Box sucks! It doesn't have a two button mouse!

Don't bother.

[RatBastard]

Don't bother. They've got it in there heads that they are sticking it to The Man and they won't ever let go, no matter how much logic you use.

But let's say that they are right, that MS is losing, say, $40.00 (US) per XBox. After a million units sold they "lose" $40,000,000.00. So what? That's less than lunch money as far as MS is concerned. When these economic terrorsists start costing MS billions of dollars, then it might be work noticing. Sticking it to MS by buying an XBox is like killing a blue whale with a Nerf bat.

Re:Don't bother.

[Dave_bsr]

"...killing a blue whale with a Nerf bat..."

lol...

MS-Nvidia Arbitration

[LinuxGeek]

MS and Nvidia are in arbitration right now over the pricing of the xbox chipset. MS demanded lower pricing and Nvidia balked because the price MS was willing to pay left no profit. From the article:

The real blow for the graphics chipmaker could come when the arbitration panel issues a ruling on Microsoft's request for damages and lower prices on the supplied chips. Nvidia could, if Microsoft prevails, be forced to produce Xbox chips at a loss. Furthermore, increased demand for Xbox chips could reduce production of other Nvidia chips and delay shipments of new products.

MS seems to be the perpetual hunter, they are using companies like Nvidia to finance development and proof of concept for DRM hardware and will probably strike back at Xbox Linux sometime soon. Nvidia had to eat about $10 million US in obselete xbox chips when MS changed the security keys to thwart the first round of modchips. Who profits from partnership with MS besides MS?

Re:Why? Where is the code?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well it depends.

The code for the old PSX-mod chip was writen in PIC-assembler.

Has it changed?

To VHDL maybe?

Development!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's hard to develop software for the XBox without becoming a registered developer. Linux gives you well known programming tools and a full blown OS to play with.

Not Linux. Not ever.

[RatBastard]

MS Would never do a Linux distro for XBox, nor allow one to be done by a developer. The GNU Public License would screw MS over due to the need to disclose the source code, including the source code for the authentication system.

A BSD distro would be feasable, but VERY unlikely.

The XBox is a game platform. That's all MS wants it to be and they will not do anything to change that.

DRM Practice

[DrSkwid]

Protecting the XBox is good practice for building an 'unbreakable' home PC.

MS had to build a PC becasue they need to have a reference point. A software DRM solution would be problematic because of the wide range of hardware it was likely to end up running on. They have a need to get this reference system into the wild and see how people would attempt to break into it. Already they have reaped dividends by having their first attempt cracked.

They can do this without any great risk to their reputation as secure system builders because, after all, it's *only* a games console.

That PC doesn't have DVD, Dolby Dital, or.....

[cybrthng]

Lets see you run Halo, Project Gotham, Jet Grind Radio, Sega GT 2002, NBA2k3, NFL2k3 or ANY game that the xbox breezes through on that system.

NO matter what, were not comparing apples to apples here. That PC above doesn't play DVD's, it doesn't have Dolby Digital Sound, it doesn't have a swank video card.

Tell me where i can get a pc, the size of the xbox with DVD playback, that can play games, rip mp3's, have ethernet built in and plug into a tv.

Re:That PC doesn't have DVD, Dolby Dital, or.....

[g4dget]

For DVD playback, games, etc., you get an Xbox. For running Linux, however, a low-end PC is a better choice: easier to install, with more disk space, etc. Easy enough to understand?

Piss poor my ass

[Anonymous Coward]

if he's piss poor, wtf is he buying a console
game for?

Does his family pay for cable tv?
Shut the friggin thing off and buy a computer
with that money.
TV is a waste of fuckin time.
Tell him to quit smoking as well.

Of course... if someone GAVE him the console
as a present.. then they should be beaten
severely. They would have done better
to spend an extra $100 and buy a cheap PC
than to stick this dirt poor kid with a games
rental and purchasing habit.
Thanks a fuckin lot.

Sheeple are fuckin morons

done!

[Hubert_Shrump]

mess supports kaypro emulation - kaypro was a CP/M machine.

for this triumph, i want all your copies of micro cornucopia and foglight!

-1 Redundant

[runlvl0]

(See my response to the guy above.)

Regardless, let's see you run ANY of those games under Linux, even on XBox, and I'll be interested.

If you're that excited about playing proprietary games (e.g. "Halo, Project Gotham, Jet Grind Radio, Sega GT 2002, NBA2k3, NFL2k3") on proprietary hardware, then for bog's sake, please buy an XBox (or a PS2, or a GameCube, or whatever).

Yes, an XBox can be made to emulate an off-the-shelf PC, and can be made to run Linux if you:

• Buy the mod chip, $59, no soldering required and Flash it with your own ROM
  
• Buy a USB keyboard ($10 appx OEM)
  
• Make it work on the the XBox (some wire work involved)
  
• Dittos on the USB mouse.
  
• Download and burn ISOs for the Xbox Linux boot CD-RW/DVD-RW and the Mandrake install
  
• Hardware specific Mandrake install instructions can be found here.
  

Meaning, of course, that your $199 XBox is now at least (I'm just thinking of the mod chip - I'm assuming that your labor is worthless) a $260+ Linux PC without a warranty. You can do that, and it's legitimately a pretty cool hack (tm) and a nice way to thumb your nose at Redmond, but if what you want is an inexpensive Linux PC, then why not simply buy the inexpensive Linux PC?

*sigh*

Re:-1 Redundant

[cybrthng]

You missed my point entirely.

I was trying to come across as how can you compare a 200.00 pc to something like the xbox that is MANY times better?

The 200.00 PC is going to play OpenGL/DirectX games at 60+ fps, it isn't going to have DVD playback (smooth) with Dolby Digital support. It isn't going to have HDTV output.

My freaking point is that a goddam xbox is way more powerfull then those 200.00 pc's and i'm not comparing apples to oranges here. I'm just saying that the Xbox is a powerfull biest, it ISN'T A PC. I'm not chopping up my box, but for "hacking sake" you can't beat the Xbox and it blows away the PS2 hands down in cost, availability, performance and useability.

So if you want a small box that can be "hacked" into a pc that can play dvds, that supports dolby digital, that has a g reat video card, that has a 8-10 gig hard drive, that has ethernet and can be "hacked into shape" then go for it..

Just don't tell me how the PS2 kit is "k-rad" and when the xbox comes up it is cheaper to buy a peeceee.. last time i checked a ps2 and the linux kit can run up to 700 bucks.. is THAT worth it? sure you don't need to mod your PS2, but you can buy a 2nd ps2, mod it, buy cdr's and run linux cheaper then buying the darn kit!

oh well. i'm done.. no one understands :)

Gawd, I can't help myself...

[EvilAlien]

Forget WINE, how about a... beowulf... cluster. UNGH. I tried to hold it back, sorry folks.

This makes things like Attack of the haX0r1ng Dreamcasts much more nasty. The "exploit physical security/drop dreamcast on open internal network/enumerate network from the inside" stuff was big at DefCon X this year, proving that its isn't all about wireless hacking now. An X-Box + Mandrake ups the ante for IT network admins.

debian..

[gl4ss]

was available earlier with installation instructions, and this mandrake dist. is no more official than that afaik.

Don't buy Xboxes.

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't give MS anymore money.
they have enough.

Re:Why feed the beast.

[Anonymous Coward]

help ms now and they will crush you later.
don't feed the Beast.

No...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not. Really, it's not. Get out of the basement and look at the sky or something for god's sake!

Supersatisfaction condom...

[Cowboy Bill]

.. guaranteed to please any girl!! You've put it on. Now where are the WOMEN?????

Ooooh! Bochs!

[Antarius]

What would be even better, is to get Windows running under Bochs, under X-Box Mandrake.

That way, it can create a never-before-seen game for the console: Something for aspiring script kiddies to hack!


(Wow! Look! I got root on my own console! I'm so l33t!)

before this goes too far...

[Perdition]

What's an X-box?

Last Post!

[alpg]

> Yeah, Linus is in the US.
>
> His source trees are in Finland.

OK, someone give him access -fast- ...... ;-)
-- babydr@nwrain.net, because of problems with the kernel

- this post brought to you by the Automated Last Post Generator...

Economics of Scale not applying in this case.

[Anonymous Coward]

This would be more of the case if Microsoft actually owned their manufacturing base - unfortunately, they are outsourcing production to a third-party company and using parts bought from third-party companies, so the economics of scale argument does not particularly apply here. The Microsoft profit model for the Xbox is the 'razor blade' model based on game consumption - early estimates, as detailed in 'Opening the Xbox', stated that each Xbox owner needed to own 7 games, 4 of those being Microsoft-produced games, in order to turn a profit. (Of course, that may have changed since, as I imagine that costs have been lowered to a certain extent.)

It does apply to Sony, since they own all of their factories and chip production facilities - they didn't turn a profit on the PS2 until they'd sold 20 million boxes - that paid for setting up the factories, research, etc. - after that was profit.