Slashdot Mirror
Helping Your Ex-Employer?
ali_bubba asks: "A funny thing happened to me today, I have beeb unemployed for over 5 months, and all of a sudden my ex-Boss calls me and demands (well, it sounded like a demand) that I help her out, because her entire corporate LAN was down. Naturally, she knows that I'm kind person, but boy what attitude, so I did help her save the day. She did not even bother calling me back to thank me, (like if you get slapped, turn the other cheek, as Jesus once said) Has anyone else had this happen to them before? What actions did you take?" While I can understand that some people in this situation may harbor some ill will if place in this situation, it may behoove you to see this as an opportunity, and at the very least, an opportunity to make a little money off of your old company. It doesn't pay to burn bridges, especially if they need something that you can provide. For those who have been in this situation, how did you handle it? For others, if you were offered work from your old job, would you do it, and under what conditions would your perform said work?
ask for consulting fees.
Submit an invoice to her for the time necessary to do this (plus transportation, etc.) to her at my previous rate. This may seem harsh to some or weak-willed to others, but it sends a message that you value your time and expect to be compensated.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
"$200 an hour, minimum 8 hours"
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --H.L. Mencken
-----
Score 3? For what? Being wrong, at length? - smirkleton
You only mentioned that she did not call to thank you.. Did she at least pay you for your time?
i swear my userid used to be lower.
I woulda just billed em. The RAID crashed at the place I had been laid off from last, and the only admin just had a cyst removed from his shoulder so he couldn't type. In a panic, they gave me a call.
:) Got everything back within 45 minutes, spent another half hour "stress testing" the RAID, and I was off.
:)
I had already gotten a new job, but I was happy to work with em on an evening, for $70/hr
I mean, I would have at least charged them $10/hr. if I was you
A polite, "I'm sorry, but my current schedule precludes me from being able to help" works for me.
Of course, if you want/need the work, then just go do it at whatever rate you think is fair. Just bite your lip and don't comment one way or the other, it only leads to problems.
Make sure you get paid! Is she your close friend? If so, you could be nice. If not, bill them! I would suggest billing for the time you spent there to fix this incident as well, it will send a clear signal. IT support is NOT free.
Thank you for calling on the services of ACME Consuling.. Here is my bill for 3hrs (min.) of work at $150/hr.. Please pay the total amount of $450 by the end of the month or there will be an added interest charge of 15% per week after that.
Free Mac Mini
Woke up one morning to an email from a former boss wanting "information about the current SCADA applications" at a place I worked for while under his employ.
That was pretty bad.
Then he said, "Sorry for sending it to you so early in the morning, I need it for a lunch meeting".
It was actually a sales pitch at lunch.
I was pissed, but that didn't set me off.
He sent the email with a HIGH PRIORITY MS Outlook flag, so it had a red ! in my Inbox. !!!!
I debated sending a nasty flaming message regarding compensation for my time, etc.
Then I looked at my clock. 1PM.. Oops. Woke up too late to help you pal.
In any situation, no matter how well you document what you do, there are going to be a few things that are both specific to your particular setup and not something anyone else at the company knows. I suppose this would be less of a problem the larger your staff is, i.e. how many people there were doing the same job you were. In cases where this is an issue, I think it's pretty reasonable for your boss to call and ask questions, although I think it would be equally reasonable to not answer if you held a lot of enmety towards said boss. If you left on good terms (which it didn't sound like was the case in the post), then the friendly thing to do is give an answer. If they want you to come over and spend time on a problem, then by all means get paid, but if it's just a quick query, then helping them out seems reasonable.
Narrative
After three years of always having me to call on to take care of anything IT related, I think they have just gotten used to it.
The first time after I left (I actually quit, was not laid off) that I got the call, I think I handled it the best way possible.
You tell them 'I'd love to help you out. You know I am consulting on my own now, right?'
Explain to them that you are your own business. Find a price that is fair... not unreasonably high, but something that is in a solid ballpark. I settled on twice of what I made hourly for the company. When you consider that a:) you are now going to have to pay additional social security as an independant consultant and are having to pay the costs of your own benifits (health care, etc.), and b:) You don't have a full time job, so a little extra is worth having.
Good luck to you. Remember, you don't work for them anymore. Of course you don't want to mean or vicious to them (to burn your bridges), just be freindly and professional. If you feel that you have some personal obligation to help them out, remember that when they let you go, it was 'just business' to them. Treat them the same way.
Good luck
The Internet is generally stupid
Basic case handling fee: $500,00
Case study: $280
Rapid deployment fee: $843,00
8 workhours: 8 * $184,00 = $1472
Non-office hours: 4 * $380,00 = $1520
Travel expenses: 43 miles * $2/mile = $86,00
TOTAL: $4701
TO BE PAID: $4701 + taxes
DUE: TODAY
Your previous boss didn't ask for price. That means, he is prepared to pay anything.
This is like the old joke about the doctor and lawyer playing golf. Another golfer runs up and asks the doctor some medical question. The doctor gives some advice and the man runs off. The doctor asks the lawyer if he ever has similar problems. The lawyer responds, "Not so much anymore. I used to have people asking for free legal advice all the time, then I started sending them bills. They don't ask me for advice so much anymore." The doctor responded that he'd have to start doing that also. A week later the doctor got a bill in the mail from the lawyer for services rendered.
You might not expect (i.e. probably can't force them) to get paid, but it does send the message that you are willing to help in the future, but you aren't going to do for free anymore.
The perfect time to negotiate your hourly rate would have been while the "entire corporate LAN was down." But if you did end up doing the work pro bono, at least your old boss will know she can count on you in the future. Next time make sure to work out the terms ahead of time.
If you end up doing a lot of consulting work, you're going to have to get a business license and (depending on the state) get a tax ID number. Here's a pretty basic article about setting up a consulting business (although it's aimed at Web developers).
If whatever you helped with involved having passwords to sensitive information that you had access to while working there, you might want to "forget" those passwords.. They may be looking for someone to take a fall for a break in...
I had one ex-employer, several months after I had quit, call me and ask for some passwords for their main development server... Mind you that half the office knew the passwords to the server, so its not like I was the only one.. There's no way I was going to say that I knew the passwords..
I'm just wondering what can happen to a "good samaritan" in terms of liability. If you hadn't been able to fix the network, or if some malware (virus, trojan) shows up sometime in the near future, what's to stop them from coming after you with a team of attack lawyers? While it's unlikely, if somebody was willing to make a demand of you like that, I wouldn't be surprised if they were willing to play pass-the-buck if something unfortunate happens.
While I admire you for following your beliefs, I don't know that I would have done the same. Only if the livelihood of my friends at the company were jeopardized would I go for it -- or if the money was exceptional.
I was laid off on a Thursday, and the HR person at Nortel told me that I wasn't required to do any more work. Despite this, my manager called me the next day and told me to help them out with one of their online tools. Just like you, I'm sometimes a little bit too kind and helped her out anyway, because I felt that I needed the reference from them in order to get another job. Looking back, I regret helping her... after all, she was the one to put me on the hit list. Anyway, she got laid off three months after me, and I'm running my own business now.
I had about the exact same thing happen to me. I was laid off from my job, and not a week later I had a call from my old boss demanding some information. I quietly replied that my consulting fees are $20 an hour and the clock was ticking. Luckily for him it was only a 2 min question (I don't bill for anything under 30 min). However, luckily for me I did answer his question because exactly one month later another department called me back to do some contract work. Like one comment I read it doesn't help to burn any bridges. Sometimes one just needs to swallow his/her pride. Oh and one note I was able to renew my contract and I am working from home. Oh my gosh you guys working from home is so sweet!
I remember a lesson from my business law course in college. The example they used was this.
If you come home and find that somebody mowed your lawn, you do not own them money because you have no relationship.
If you're at a strip club and you say "no thank you" to a lap dance but she performs anyway, you don't owe a thing because even though they performed a service for which you would normally expect payment, you expressly said you don't want a business relationship.
If you see a kid mowing your lawn and you wave to him (or otherwise prove you know he was doing it), you owe him money. By acknowledging that he was performing a service for which you would normally pay you agree to a business relationship.
If you send a reasonable invoice, you can expect to be paid.
Vanguard
That which does not kill me only makes me whinier
- Unlimited Power by Anthony Robbins. My personal favorite.
- Getting to Yes by Roger Fisher and William Ury. The classic negotiation book.
- Start With No by Jim Camp. I haven't read this one, actually, but it sounds very on-topic.
Good luck. Find your strength.Hey, Ali - I've got a problem with my network over here, too. I can't seem to DHCP addresses with my wireless cards sometimes. Come over sometime today or tomorrow and get it fixed for me before business starts back up on Monday. Call me and let me know what time is best for you.
Thanks.
I left a job of three years on good terms. The admin they hired to replace me was fired, but they did not follow proper procedures. He came in that weekend and trashed the systems. I was called to see if I could bail them out. I did but at my standard consulting rate. I made money on the side and they got back to work quickly. Everyone was happy.
If you are not on the books there could be legal issues if you make things worse, get hurt, etc.
Be sure that you are on the books as an employee/contractor/etc. whenever you do work for a proir company. This is for your protection as well as that of the employer.
comment directly in my journal
When you work for any employer, you should present yourself to your employer as a professional. In return your should expect treatment as a professional. If you don't get it, you should decline to continue your relationship with your employer.
If a former employer called me for help I would eveluate the request using the criterea:
1. Would helping my former employer violate any agreements I have signed with my current employer?
2. Did the former employer live up to their obligations to me as an employee, and treat me as a professional?
3. Did my employment contract with my former employer include any provision that I provide such services?
If 1&2 or 3 are satisfied I would fax the person a standard consulting contract with my hourly rates. On receipt of a signed contract I would then perform the requested services.
If not, I would decline.
Well, seeing as the last place I was able to find work, I was only offered $5/hour... no. The guy actually had to talk to his accountant to discover the minimum wage. I'm an experienced professional C++/assembly programmer on DSPs. I was doing advertising design, web design, new product design, and planning for future PDA programming for this company too.
His other developer and his family had to live in a trailer - and the boss "gave" him a car and phone, only to hold them over his head. When he was sick for a few days, the boss had that phone disconnected.
The boss even proclaimed to be an experienced Europian developer, and he did fluently speak several languages... so I'm amazed he could treat people that way... and much worse than that on many occasions too. But his company was the only place that would even allow a computer person with less than 3 years experience find a job. He even made quitting a huge hassle - I had to research and quote many specific laws before he dismissed me with "it's not worth my time" to get paid for my two weeks there, even at minimum wage.
Now I'm still looking for a job... any job. And I can't. I haven't for months. I've called half the numbers in the yellow pages and looked at all the leads in all towns within three hours drive. I have to say, looking for work as a programmer in central Florida REALLY sucks.
Ryan Fenton
Yes, I'd help out my old company. But it would be at one hell of a premium price! Basically, you can charge about $125 per hour as a consultant and still have that considered a reasonable rate.
But if they were going to cop an attitude with me, my minimum would be the equivalent of 2 months of my salary at the time I left the company. Half (non-refundable) to be paid up front, the other half to be paid when I've completed the job they brought me on to cover.
In ANY situation, make sure you get a P.O. from them before you show up to do the work!!! It should state what the work is that they expected you to accomplish. If they start asking you to do other things while you are there, tell them to fill out new P.O.'s for those tasks separately, and determine an hourly rate to be charged for every hour spent on those separate tasks. Those separate tasks should be started when you are done with the work paid for by the first P.O.
Be professional! Do the best work you can. Remember, at this point you are an independent contractor. Your work should stand as a testament of what you are capable of as a professional.
Last, when you're done, make sure you give a clear list of what you diagnosed and what you did to fix things. Make sure that the person who authorized the work signs off on it. Don't forget to make a copy! (using their copier, naturally!)
Whew! This water sure is cold!
My ex-girlfriend called me up a couple of nights ago because she needed my talents to work on her setup. I used to get paid for this sort of thing (dinner, massage, her talents on my setup). Should I charge her for that night, or do I have no expectation of compensation?
You broke one of the most important rules of employment. Never Work for free! Not only does it assign a zero value to your time, but it assignes a zero value to the time of anyone doing that task.
The second rule you broke, taking a lesson from M$ here, is that if they need you, you've got them exactly where you want the. Grease it up with vaseline and give it to them good and hard, to the tune of at least $100/ hour for skilled IT consulting
Many people have posted that, "You don't want to hurt your chance to use them as a reference." But then again, you don't want them letting your prospective employer that you're a cheap date either.
finally, for the question of returning to any employer as an employee (and not an independant consultant). Remeber this adage... Old Jobs are like old girlfriends, Never go back
I know as denizens of Western civilization (especially the U.S.), our first reaction is
...
... the golden goose lesson) ... and then were hired as outside consultants later. They ended up making a lot more money as a consultant than as an employee (for the same basic work). One is even getting frequent inquiries by the client about possibly joining them full-time.
... but don't scalp them ... fair market wage.
...
[1] Sue them!
and then
[2] How much can I get?
But I think it pays to think about your situation first. There may be some dynamics you might otherwise overlook.
Case A: Laid Off, Unemployed
If you're having problems finding a job, it may pay not to incite your former boss. You never know when your old firm may get a large project and decide to bring aboard some consultants.
While it hasn't happened to me, I have friends who were laid off, provided some occasional support at reasonable rates (this is *key*
Case B: Laid off, Employed Now
You have some incentive to maintain cordial ties with your old firm. But the incentives are definitely reduced by having current employment. If you hated your old firm and want to maintain loyalty with your current one, I'd just pass or agree under some pretty restrictive terms (i.e. define the total # of hours and compensation). Consulting money is nice but, clearly, your long term prospects are not tied with your old firm, better to focus on your current firm.
Case C: Quit
If you were the one who quit the job, I'd consider providing some support especially if you either [1] really left the firm holding the bag or [2] still have friends at the firm who would otherwise suffer. But make sure to get paid
You'd be surprised how this type of action can result in good karma. I had a friend who quit his job for a higher paying position at a high profile company. Unfortunately, lay-offs happened and, as a high-salary newbie, he was one of the first to go. His boss at the old firm - he couldn't rehire my friend - went out of his way to call a few of his competitors to recommend my friend - he did this primarily because he appreciated how my friend provided support (many times for gratis) for several months after he left. My friend got a job based on one of these recommendation.
Case D: Fired
No way in hell. Or make sure it's enough to pay for your big screen plasma TV, your sizable tab at the local watering hole, and possibly a year's rent
I had a similar situation -- I was laid off the 1st of the year. In the following months, my previous firm contacted me regularly, mostly asking how I was doing, letting me know they wanted me back & were looking for ways to accomplish that, etc.
:)
Then one day I got a call from them. They had a customer who wanted some work done, but it was such a small job that just drafting the agreement would be more expensive than the job was worth. They contacted me and told me if I wanted to freelance the job, they'd put me in touch with the customer. I accepted it (of course). it turned out that it was too small for even a freelance charge, but I answered the guys question and it generated positive advertising for my previous firm.
A month later, I got another call from them -- another freelance job - this one was for the wife of the head of my old firm. I again accepted it and his wife was happy with my results.
Then my old manager called. He didn't have a freelance offer this time -- he wanted some advice on how to collect unemployment! (yeah, business got so bad the managers were being let go...) So I was very helpful & supportive of him too -- told him where to go to sign up, what the process was, etc.
Then I got one last call -- now I'm working full-time for my old firm again. They were so happy with my attitude and willingness to help them out even after letting me go that they found a spot for me & I'm gainfully employed again -- with my full benefits just like I never left (3 weeks vacation, I'm vested, etc). Admittedly, it WAS a paycut from my old salary, but in this market, I'm not complaining
Sorry about all the rambling. I guess what I'm trying to say in a nutshell is: Don't burn your bridges. Having a positive attitude and being willing to help them out can never hurt - it can only help. Even if they don't have any openings, they may hear of other firms that need people & could suggest you -- or give you a positive review when a future employer starts checking references. You never know when someone may be talking to them and your name may come up...
To add insult to injury I didn't get paid much of my accumulated vacation time. I'd been foregoing taking my time as we were in such a crunch, got promised it would carry over, etc. Due to poor record-keeping on my part (and being young and stupid) I didn't pursue the issue much but wrote it all off as lesson-learned.
Anyway a few moths later I got a call from a friendly former coworker asking me, in a very stilted way, about some security systems I had written, what was the password, etc. I picked up pretty fast that this wasn't actually a social call, that my friendly co-worker wasn't alone in the room, that they wanted me aware of such, and they were being pressured to make this call.
So, I told them no, I didn't recall the exact passwords but I was sure I could break into what I'd secured and would be happy to do so under contract. I then quoted them an outrageous hourly rate, said as I was unhappy with my former employer I' double that, and no assurance of how long it would take me. My friendly former co-worker politely thanked me and said they'd "pass it on".
Sure enough an hour later I got a call asking me to come in ASAP. So I did. I got them to confirm the rate in writing, refused to give an estimate, and sat down. And played games, very visibly, for two days, until the sum I felt I was owed in vacation time was met. About 10 minutes after that point, just as I was finishing up my report, the finance guy came in with a pre-written check (they knew perfectly well what was going on) and asked me for the password.
I handed him my report, told him I'd call from the bank with the password as soon as I'd cashed the check. He balked at that but I pointed out that many of my payroll checks had "bounced" but had been covered by the bank, I wanted to be sure there'd by no awkward problems with this one. He threatened to void the check if I didn't give them the passwords, I said fine I'd be no worse off then before, and if he didn't get out of my way I'd call the police for imprisonment. He gave way and I left.
So, 30 minutes later from the bank I called, told him the password used on everything, and then took some friends out for drinks, including the friendly former co-worker who had slipped out early. By the way the friendly coworker resigned the next day, the nasty Sr, person lasted another few months, the whole place went under a few years later.
Oh, and a few times later I was in situations where Sr. folks from that place were applying for jobs and I was in the decision process, each time I knifed 'em.
As Cliff stated, you don't want to burn any bridges. Even those that you desperately want to burn, should be maintained. You never know who or when you will need someone in your future.
At the same time do not let anyone take advantage of you. You said that this was a former employer. This immediately releases you of ANY responsibility or obligation to them, you don't work for them anymore!
This could be a slightly grey area if you had recently, within a couple of weeks, left the job on your own accord and the failed system was your responsibility. But, even here there is no REAL responsibility, simply a matter of your own moral feelings on the matter. But, you stated that this emplyer became former 5 months ago. No matter what the reason for your departure there is absolutely positively no obligation on your part after this period of time.
The next time you are presented with this situation, stop for a moment and think. First what are your feelings? Simply, do you want to do it or not? Secondly, review your current situation. Are you working somewhere else and are really to busy to spare the time or perhaps it may be a conflict of interest if you are working for a competitor now. In your case, you stated that you are unemployed so these would not be a problem here. You have time and there are no conflicts.
So, having decided that you can do it and that you want to do it, the next step is to specify the terms of a short term contract. Yes, contract. Even if it is only verbal you are still entering into a contract with this company. You need to come to an agreement on the type and amount of reimbursement for your time. You also need to agree to a set of milestones, if you will, that will be used to determine the successful completion of the contract.
For example, the situation that you related should have gone like this... Yes Jane, I am confident that I can resolve your problem. As it happens I am available to do consulting work of this kind, right now. My fee is $100 per hour for this type of work and I do charge travel time at that rate.
Janes response will likely be: "Wow, I don't want to pay that much." To which you should reply: "I certainly understand that but, that is a competitive rate in the industry and it is what I charge. I suspect from what you have told me so far that it might take 6 hours to fix your problem." At that point she will either say flat out no, and move on to another consultant, or she will say that she has to get back to you. This will give her time to get approval for the expenditure and also get estimates from other consultants. If she calls back make sure that she is in agreement to pay you for fixing the problem and that she fully expects to pay at LEAST $600.
Of course, Jane might decide to try to bully you when you advise her of your rate. She might say something like: "What?? $100 an hour?? No way. You built this system and it has never be right! It's your responsibility and I expect you to fix it immediately! I'm not paying you to fix your own mistakes. In fact, if you don't fix it, we will probably sue you!"
Your response to this should be: "I understand that you feel it is my responsibility, Jane. However, I do not work for you anymore therefore, it is NOT my responsibility. I'm sorry that you feel that I did not build the system properly however, the fact that it has worked for several months without me suggests that it was in fact, working properly. Even so, it is still not my responsibility anymore. But, I would be glad to look at it for you, as a consultant.
Finally, if Jane says that they are going to sue you, end the discussioin right then and there. Say: "I am afraid that, under the circumstances, I will not be able to assist you with your problem. I wish you the best of luck with it. Thank you for calling." click.... Naturally, this assumes that you do indeed not have any contractual liability to the problem. In your specific case, after 5 months, you didn't.
Here's how to bring up the topic of compensation if you're not talking to a particularly helpful one:
If they don't pay, you print "Past Due" on the bill next month, and send it again. Add 1.5% per month as a past due fee.
If they still don't pay after 90 days, you file a claim in small claims court. Very seldom do things reach that point. If you go to court, and you did the work, you'll get a judgement in your favor. Then either they pay, or you find out where their bank account is and get an order attaching it.
I have to tell this to some of my artists friends now and then. They're always doing little jobs for small businesses and not getting paid. All have been paid by the second invoice.
The one time I went back and did a job for a previous employer, I charged them about a thousand dollars for a weekend. And that was in the 1970s.
Surprisingly, you won't be hated for this. You'll b e respected.
"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you. You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." (Matthew 5:38:45 RSV)
From the Sermon on the Mount. Okay, smart guy?
[...]like if you get slapped, turn the other cheek, as Jesus once said...[...]
Yeah, but Jesus never had to fix a LAN.
Boss: "My Lord, could you get our 250-node token ring VAX LAN back online? You'll need to check every inch of the coax cable, duct-taping nicked insulation as needed."
Jesus: "Fuck that!"
waiting to get smited,
horati0
The neutrality of this sig is disputed.
My ex boss was on the phone with the FBI telling them I hacked the network and took down the webserver (nationwide ISP with ONE webserver).
One of the othe employees called me and told me (good friend) and advised that I call him. So I did, and within 30 seconds the server was up and all was dandy. I didn't get a thankyou, just a "If you do it again I'm going through with the FBI complaint".
The dumb ass he replaced me with switched out the BSD kernel for the GENERIC one which couldn't handle the apache requests without running out of file handles. Of course it's all my fault.
So consider yourself lucky she called for help. It could have been much worse.
I've seen the posts saying 'invoice them.' Don't. Invoicing them at some rate you dreamt up and to which they did not agree is simply unprofessional. If you want some compensation for this, I suggest that you contact your ex-boss, for whom you did this favor, and ask her for a letter of recommendation.
Should this happen again in the future, express your gratitude for being offered the work and then politely inform them of your rate (or a flat fee). Spell out any minimums (e.g., 4 or 8 hour minimum), whether the billing starts from the time you begin work or if it is portal-to-portal (i.e., includes travel time), and payment schedule (e.g., downpayments, terms -- like net 30, payment in advance, etc.). If they balk at reasonable terms, then be polite but firm and tell them that you cannot accept the work.
If you do your ex-employer a favor, then you should make sure that it was you that decided to. I have, on occasion, sent ex-employers e-mails warning them of bugs and product updates for systems that I set up while under their employ. I don't expect to be paid for that in anything other than good will.
like if you get slapped, turn the other cheek, as Jesus once said
Jesus's situation would have been more analogous if Pontius Pilate had demanded that Jesus do unpaid work for him after the crucifixion. Besides, Jesus was not always in fear of losing his job to a cut-rate, H1-B messiah brought in from some third-world country. He'd have gotten pretty tired of being slapped around had he been in the computer industry.
Several years ago, I had a small contract to do flash design for the website for a small indie film. The pay structure was divided 25%, 25%, and 50% for the final. The first two were fine, and the project was going smoothly. After finishing the project though, I kept getting the run around about my final payment.
Eventually they had the premiere of the movie, and I was invited. At this premiere I was told that, sorry, they had no more money, and couldn't pay me. They had overestimated the $$ in their bank, and it turns out the last of their money was spent on the refreshments for their premiere party. Sucks to be me, but I didn't counter them legally, it was less than $1000 and I just wrote it off as a loss and broke all connections.
About a year later, the same people thought that they were finally getting a bite on their movie, and decided they desperately needed to update their website. They contacted me and asked why they had never received the source code for their movie, as per the contract--they needed it so that so-and-so's cousin, who 'knew flash' could update the website. I told them, because I had never gotten paid, also per the contract. When they didn't pay me, I said, the contract was broken.
At this point they got really upset and brought in so-and-so's uncle the lawyer and told me that what I had made was a piece of crap and the money they already paid more than covered the value of the project. And that if I continued to resist, they would sue me.
This was on my birthday. I've never had a bad birthday since. No matter what happens, I will always remember how this one was worse.
Eventually, after spending half my birthday on the phone, I knew what I had to do. Like I said, the original amount just wasn't enough to call a lawyer about, and I decided this wasn't either. Also, I had no money and even if I won this case it would be on the other side of the country which was just more money out of my pocket. So I told them, ok, I'll give you the source code exactly as it is right now, and you'll leave me alone for good and neither one of us ever talks to the other one. Ok, they said.
What was my trick? My code (and my flash movies are highly dependant on actionscript) was completely uncommented. It would have been a beast for me to figure out, and more so for somebody else that knew flash as well as I did. And much more so for so-and-so's cousin that 'knew flash'.
In the end, they got off my back, I wasn't sued on my birthday, and I came out feeling like I had won anyway. Because they were never able to figure out my source, and were never able to update their website. (and incidentally, never sold their movie)
Punctanym: alternate spelling of words using punctuation or numerals in place of some or all of its letters; see 'leet'
Many people think that IT personell are some kind of running clerks at a cafe. These ones have absolutely no respect for your brains, your experience and your sweet. More, they tend to hide their incompetence, ignorance and stupidity behind a mask of arrogance and superiority. If your ex-boss called you demanding something, the first thing you should have done was to say "Cool but that will cost you US$XXXX...". If he comes up with threats and dubious statements about your past work, you better send him fast to Hell and tell him to forget your name and your phone.
Beware that you open-hearthed behaviour could have caused more damage rather than help to yourself. There are times when old bosses start to talk too much about their ex-employees as "smarties that left hacks and bombs to spoil our work". And when you come back and do something in half-second, they may try to use it to make a serious accusation that you tried to crook them. While I have never seen such stories getting to courts, there are pretty real examples how ex-bosses tried to extort cheap work out of their ex-employees by playing such scenarios. Personally, many years ago, I was in such situation and things nearly ended in a violent fight inside a "respectable" commercial bank.
ALso, a minimum number of hours is also worth it. Min 3 is fair for most tasks like KIA server. Min 2 or even 1 if the task is pidly and you want to make the point. Also make it know that your charging system works like the telephone company's long distance system, only you count by hours and not minutes. Ie, you round up to the next hour regardless if you work 5 or 45 minutes into an next hour.
You should have all this stuff typed up in a contract and have it signed by the boss (no one else!) as soon as you get onsite. Without it, don't do any work. Also don't negotiate. That's the contract, take it or leave it. You need to have legalease wording that absolves you of all responsibility if the system breaks again after you leave. You need to make it clear that you can't be sued after the fact. I travel is required, include a blurb about mileage and the rate. Include text that says what will happen if they fail to pay by 30 days after service is rendered. Also say that failing to pay also includes a bad check.
Carry a carbon copy ticket book with you. As you work on different systems, write out what the system is and why you're doing it on the carbon form. Write down every system you have to touch and the major points of what you do to each. "Had to reboot border router." "Had to kick the DNS box in the nads". Before you leave have the boss (no one else!) sign the each carbon page (if you had to use multiple pages) and give them one set of the carbons and file away the others. This way you can show exactly what systems you touched. If their NT box breaks later and you didn't touch it, they can't blame you for it. It's also very wise to record all tty output (commands, stdout, etc). If you have a laptop with a CDR in it, burn two copies to disk. Both you and the boss should sign both. Give them one. Don't let them leave you alone at any point and time during the onsite visit. If you aren't alone, they can't claim you stole backup tapes from the locker or pissed under the raised floor.
Write every password they gave you on the carbon mentioned above. Include in your contract that they are responsible for changing every password they gave you after you leave. Also include that you are absolved from any future damages coming from said systems where the passwords weren't changed. Writing it on the carbon emphasizes this.
It's important to make sure the signatures are from a person at the company authorized to pay you. Odds are you old super isn't authorized to make such payment. The director of the dept is usually the person that can do such things. They could potentially claim that the person that signed the contract wasn't authorized to make such agreements. Don't give them a way out like that.
It wouldn't hurt to use a tape recorder for all verbal conversations and make that something else they agree to in the contract.
Have the contract say something about parking (if parking garage fees are incurred or if a certain parking permit is required for parking (tickets or towing are the penalty).
All these are just some of the ways you could potentially get screwed. It's better to take precautions beforehand than post mortem.
I've been on the receiving end of that, after killing myself for about a year on one gig, they hire a full-time tech director. Turns out he wants to hire his buddy, and being smarter than the both of them, I represented a serious threat. Get this - the new guy told them they had to install accessible cable trays (in a school) down all the hallways because the cables I had installed in the walls/false ceilings "were'nt expandable". And the client bought it! Guess they never heard of a hub...or 802.11. And I'll bet the cables dangling out of the cable trays and the holes punched through the drywall look so much better.
cat
I think the key is What did you do for them? answer simple "Do you remember how this worked?" type questions, or did you diagnose and fix the problem for them.
It is fair to call up with simple questions that are just a matter either "No, I don't recall that", or "It worked like this...". They must be simple questions where you do not have to think. (If you are doing noting else at the time you might hold the line while their experts think out the problem, but don't think for them).
If they want you to think out the problem, you need to charge for services. Be reasonable, but remember you know the system so you are better than the average expert off the street!
P.S. If you are asked simple questions DO NOT think for them. I have been gotten in trouble because of this. In that case I went to my mentor with a simple question that was in his area of expertise, and he took the problem from me, and then complained to the boss that I left all the work for him. (I was asked to leave over that issue, so of course I'm ticked)
Basic case handling fee: $500,00 ...
Case study: $280
Rapid deployment fee: $843,00
The look on your boss's face when she gets the bill: Priceless.
The 'turn the other cheek' quote is a prime example. As interpreted by the modern christian church, this statement is about subverting yourself to authority and not defending yourself against corrupt powers. However, the is another interpretation. As I learned recently, this statement, as is the case in many of Jesus' statement, is an attempt to use local customs and etiquette to equalize unequal relationship. The explanation is fascinating. In the time of Jesus if one was going to slap an inferior, one would use the back of ones hand. After the inferior person was slapped, Jesus said to turn the other cheek. This would force the assailant to use the front of the hand to attack. However, the kind of slap was an implicit acknowledgment that the person was an equal. Therefore, by turning the other cheek the victim is forcing the assailant to acknowledge equivalence if he or she attacks.
So, far from bending over and taking the attack, the words tell us to not to be subservient, but be proactive in a peaceful way. Sending a reasonable bill for services is appropriate. If you did not agree on terms before the job, theft of services would probably not be appropriate. In the future, to 'turn the other cheek', agree on terms prior to the job, and let it be her choice.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Because if he had been on payroll all this time, the LAN would never have gone down this way in the first place. When you shitcan someone, you're saying that you can get by without their services (and availability thereof). If you discover you were wrong, you'd better be ready to pay for it.
"You're never ready, just less unprepared."
If you feel you're being bullied -- your fax, your email, and your caller id are your friends. Lie if you have to, but never stay on the phone with a bully, do everything in writing. Written correspondence gives you a paper trail and it keeps you emotionally protected.
In your case, this lawyer would have sent you a letter stating that he was going to sue (and take everything you own). As a reply, you would have sent him back a registered letter, stating that his client still owed you X amount of dollars plus some reasonable late charges, and you would be happy to send him the code as soon as you got paid. At this point, the lawyer couldn't have done much. If he wrote back to you with some unreasonable demands, he would risk looking like a fool in front of the judge and even worst, he could even risk losing his license for breaking his professional code of conduct.
As to the original post, I have a similar advice. If you're not a good negotiator, cut the phone conversation short and fax (email is obviously not going to work if their network is down) a simple invoice for your work. It doesn't need to be elaborate, just something like "My services, to repair the LAN, are going to cost $1000 per day (minimum charge: one day). Will this work for you? " Date it and sign it and then wait for a response (and don't be bummed out if they refuse your offer, that's life).
Everyone is screaming "SEND THEM A BILL!!". While that's appropiate in some cases, it's not always. If it's a small matter (e.g., like 15 minutes) every once in a blue moon, what's the big deal. Just help them out.
;-) is important part of building a career. Former employeers and coworkers are key in that. Getting a recommendation from a former employeer, one who'd say they'd hire you again, is a strong testmentant to your abilities and attitude; one that will mean a lot to future employeers. So building good will with people, etc. is not only nice, but smart as well.
Remember building a network (the people kind, not the OSI 7 layer kind
At the same time, there's a balance. If it's bigger than that, something requiring you to go in for a couple hours, then sure, ask for compenstation [1]. Almost anyone in the buisness world will realize you're doing more than a trival amount of work & be willing to pay you for your time.
-Bill
[1] IMPORTANT: work out the arrangement (which you will charge, roughly how long, etc.) *beforehand*. That will make it a lot easier on you both.
SlashSig Karma: Excellent (mostly affected by moderatio
Like you did. It often pays to keep connections alive, plus I'm a nice guy too. But if it went like it did for you, she wouldn't get a next time from me.
If she does call you again when she's in trouble, remind her that you already helped her once just to be nice, even though you didn't have to, and remind her that you didn't get so much as a thank-you out of it. So if she wants you to jump in and solve her problems again, she can cut a check for 8 hours consulting time at $80/hr and have it ready to hand to you when you walk in the door, otherwise you will turn around walk back out. If that's acceptable then head on over there and make some money. Otherwise tell her politely that she can call back if she changes her mind, and hang the hell up. Don't be smug, wordy or arrogant about it, just be direct.
That will settle the matter without burning any bridges, unless her ego is bigger than her business problems. Either you will be rid of her or you will make some money doing her a valuable service. Nothing wrong with that either way.
When an ex-employer calls you for something and does not use the words "please," "thank," and "you" in every third sentence, blow him off. If an ex-employer wants work out of you, demand payment at a flat rate of at least $100/hour, and get an agreement in writing first. You are nobody's bitch unless you let yourself be.
I see people in IT caving in to employers all the time, and it disgusts me. Remember, you are there because THEY NEED YOU. Never take shit that you did not earn (But learn to take it well when you have it coming). Never, EVER, let an employer act like you owe him anything. The best way to get ahead in IT is to be an arrogant prick, because if you just do your job well and act like a drone, people will have no reason to notice you and will walk all over you. You are there because you are better than anyone else they could have doing that job, never forget it.
Malcom X once said "It takes a nation of millions to hold us back." IT people need to think about that philosophy more often, because people take advantage of us, ignore us, and dump shit on us left and right, and too many geeks just sit there and put up with it.
That's what I'd do. Walk in buck naked with a Zippo in one hand and a 5 gallon Jerry can in the other and screaming that you're gonna fix their tech support problem once and for fucking all.
I still keep contact with an ex-boss of mine who works in the web industry. I actually have a small part stock in the company based on work I've done, but I really do it because I like him, the company, and what they do. I do the same for other people I know, as long as I'm not super-busy, I'd rather be doing something productive than sitting on the couch with a beer on my stomach.
:-)
I'm sure it's different for a big company, but I do what I do because I enjoy it. I've been offered to do more work again recently, but this time it's for pay because I'm more busy and thus my time is valuable.
That being said, it's one thing to ask somebody you're on good terms with. It's another to "demand" assistance and then not give help. Geeze, I work expect to at least be offered dinner or a few drinks in such a circumstance.
Reminds me of back in college, when I accepted food/drinks for fixing people's computers...
It's a simple rule, but it'll save you a lot of heartache. Simple answer is, if somebody asks you to do them a favor, and you choose to do it, expect NOTHING in return. Not gratitude, not recognition, not a job, not money. If those things turn up, great! And there's something to be said for good will. But if you don't get those things, you gave because you chose to. Maybe to remember that you're a generous person? Whatever your reasons are, they're your reasons. Corollary to this is if you're not prepared to give something in this manner (an unemployed person plying their trade for free sounds like an extemely "generous" act), then DON'T. You have a right to be compensated for your work. If this is something these people want, then, dammit, they must be willing to compensate you for it. Don't think you're "burning bridges" by asking for compensation. If you're dealing with the sort of people that expect you to work for free, you're not going to impress them by doing that. They will see you as their patsy (to use a nicer term). "Oooh I just want them to LIKE me." Does not garner respect.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
I left a job I loved a couple years ago. Great job, poorly managed organization. I could see the iceberg... The technical folks all understood, but the management team thought I was a traitor for leaving the Titanic. After the technical folks repeated requests, I helped them out with a systems issue. One of the peons noticed my login and alerted the management. They accused me of attempting to hack their systems, and called in their ultra tight-a** IT Security guy. 18 months and $7,000 in lawyer fees later, they finally droppped it. Now, I get written authorization, at least an email, before I log in to anyone's system.
Perhaps I can help. I was a contractor for the last 5 years, and I saw so many tricks people used to get free work.
- her entire corporate LAN was down
Meaning: It's costing her company 1 day of their capital. Unemployment is costing you 5 months of your capital
- helped her save the day
Meaning: You helped her save her job, even though she mismanaged by removing a necessary support position.
- my ex-Boss calls me and demands that I help her out. Boy what attitude. She did not even bother calling me back to thank me
Meaning: She's unpleasant and not a friend. She's blaming you for the problem and you believe it's your fault.
- an opportunity to make a little money off of your old company
Meaning: It's wrong to get paid by a company?? What is the purpose of any business (including yours)? It doesn't sound like you hang out there for fun. There's nothing wrong about receiving some sort of pay for your work.
- It doesn't pay to burn bridges, especially if they need something that you can provide
Not so: Getting paid is not burning bridges. You want to be known for the quality of your work, not your charity. How about your bridges that she burned?
I could understand if the item that broke was covered under warranty by you. If they were a poor charity or she was friendly I might even do them a favor.
- she knows that I'm a kind person
Kind people don't complain about what they have decided to give away.
Successful people make a quick decision and stick with it. It would be wise to work on your bargaining.
If you feel like you have to give everyone what they ask for (and if so, you're hardly alone), work on a simple, polite, unwavering response. Try "I'm sorry, I can't."
You'll often get people who try to argue it. Do not fall into their trap. It's the slippery slope to doing something you don't want to do.
"I'm sorry, I can't."
"Why not?" -or-
"But we're in trouble" -or-
"Can you just come in for an hour?"
If you say anything other than "I'm sorry, I can't", repeatedly and firmly, you're going down the slippery slope to doing something you don't want. Your ex-boss clearly has the balls to ask you for pro bono work, so she also probably will try to wear you down by arguing.
"But we're in trouble."
"I'm sorry, I can't."
"You were the one who set up the server!"
"I'm sorry, I can't."
"We have the report due tomorrow!"
"I'm sorry, I can't. I really have to go now. Good-bye. [click]"
Of course, feel free to hang up even earlier. Don't be rude, but don't allow the rudeness of others to trample on you.
So helping out the poor = kharmically the same as helping out your old employer.. (you know -- the guys who used to pay you... then probably dropped you on your ass in order to save costs) for free?
There are a lot of good deeds to be done in this wicked wicked world... that's not one of them.
Unless there are deep bonds of friendship in place, if a former employer needs my help, I'm going to charge them for it. And.. I'm going to charge them a *lot* more for it then I would have made if I was still working there. That isn't mean, cruel, or greedy. It just makes sense.
Evolution: love it or leave it
There was an engineer who had an exceptional gift for fixing all things mechanical. After serving his company loyally for over 30 years, he happily retired. Several years later the company contacted him regarding a seemingly impossible problem they were having with one of their multi-million dollar machines.
They had tried everything and everyone else to get the machine fixed, but to no avail. In desperation, they called on the retired engineer who had solved so many of their problems in the past.
The engineer reluctantly took the challenge. He spent a day studying the huge machine. At the end of the day, he marked a small "x" in chalk on a particular component of the machine and proudly stated, "This is where your problem is".
The part was replaced and the machine worked perfectly again. The company received a bill for $50,000 from the engineer for his service.
They demanded an itemised accounting of his charges. The engineer responded briefly
One chalk mark $1
Knowing where to put it $49,999
It was paid in full and the engineer retired again in peace.
I'm not sure what the terms of your separation from your old employer are, but here are a couple of random thoughts.
First, if they are like most companies, they are in it for the money. Help them. Yes. But for a consulting fee. If they were willing to pay you while you were there, they should be willing to pay you now.
Many companies have you sign agreements that you can't work for competitors, etc
Finally - in the future, you might also want to creating a formal agreement so they can't come back and sue your butt if something goes wrong.
Remember, this is a business relationship.
--- have you healed your church website?
I just recently had something very similar happen to me. I had created a simple web site for somebody last spring, and included instructions to modify the files (he didn't want to pay me to update the site, but wanted me to teach him how to do it). I provided him with some basic ftp instructions, and told him to not modify parts between the symbols (php pages). Using proper HTML was up to him.
A few months later his host upgraded the server his site was on. I modified the templates for him at no charge - no need to burn bridges, and it was fairly easy for me to fix.
A few months after that, he tried updating the site and botched it - he did not download the files first, but instead used copies on his local machine already (downloaded before the server was upgraded). Once he started getting php error messages, he contacted me, accusing me of giving him bad instructions (actually, he said I "wrote the site incorrectly") and I need to fix it right away. Very demanding, very accusative, and unwilling to answer any questions. After a few messages full of him sidestepping my questions (presumably because he did not want to admit he didn't follow the instructions), I was able to figure out what happened, and told him that since he did not follow the instructions it was not my fault.
I told him I'd only charge for a half hour of work to fix it. I made the price low because I wasn't in need of the money - it was meant to get the point across that this work is above and beyond the original deal. The total cost to him would have been twenty-three dollars and fifty cents. He kept fighting me and insisting that he is not a moron. (his justification? "I'm the head of a marketing department." Oh, I'm sorry, you couldn't be a moron, then!)
After a week, I told him I would fix it on the condition that he never contact me again. I told him there was clearly nothing I could do to make him a satisfied customer short of doing everything for free. I told him I'd gladly lose twenty-three dollars just to never have to deal with him again. I told him I hoped the time he spent fighting me was worth no more than twenty-three dollars.
I don't regret burning that bridge. If the other party has no interest in reimbursing you for your work, then you're not really even buring a bridge - you're getting rid of excess baggage.
I really hate signatures, but go to my website.
Business as usual
When she called you no saturday, she hired you back. Be very gracious about getting your job back. Before you see her, tell all the old coworkers that she hired you back when she called you on saturday. Go back in, and THANK her for calling you Saturday and getting your job back.
again, be very very gracious
Kill her with kindness. Best case: you get your job back. Worst case: you make her look like the ass she is and you get a day of fun.
Rule #1. It's Business.
Rule #2. Pay me.
Rule #3. It was never personal.
While I freely admit I don't run my life off these rules I do repeatedly remind myself of them anyway.
I've helped a previous employer out a couple weeks after I was laid off. The prior-president of the company had moved to another city and in doing so his HD failed. I helped him install windows over the phone. Probably cost me a couple of dollars in longdistance.
On the other hand, 6-8 months after working for my new company I received a call and was asked if I could do some work for them through the company I was working for now. (The first was a distribution company, the second a consulting company). So, the company I worked for got the work, and I got paid to help a previous employer.
A couple years later the guy who was running the IT department after I left had lost his job and moved to another company, he gave my name to a consultant looking for a new employee to pickup some extra work he had available. I got the job and have been happier working for this company than previous. (amusingly doing pretty much the same work, but thats another story).
Did it help being a nice guy? Sure. Did it make up for the couple of dollars I spent on a long distance call, sure.
Would it have paid to be a really nice guy and do the work for them on the side when I was working for the consulting company... no. could have cost me my job and would not have been worth the pay.
If a previous employer calls you up and wants you to do some work for them do it, and charge them consulting rates to do it. If they won't pay then they don't actually want you to help them.
If they are only offering it to you because it would cost them less (and not because you can do it in less time because you know the system) then don't take it. It probably isn't in your interest. (10% less is one thing... 75% less is another...)
Dang, this is exactly what happened to me last March when my former employer CEO called me up and asked that I do a little work for him in regards to the project that I had worked on formerly.
I was working for Maximum Charisma Studios in Denver Colorado. They released a product in 2001 that was poop and the company went chapter 7, fired all employees on the last week of January of 2001. Everyone was fired with dignity and the company went down with minimal looting and not a lot of hostility.
The company was trying to sell it's online multiplayer game product design and code to another company and so the product was still online and in collocation. Well, there was a bug that had been plaguing us that had not been fixed before everyone was fired.
Hey, this is going to turn into a Microsoft bashing story too! Cool.
The problem was that the software clients that ran on a bunch of Windows 2000 Servers would have problems forwarding or processing UDP packets after about 30 days. This was consistent on all of the servers. 30 days and the UDP would stop, the ports would get held hostage, and absolutely nothing would fix the problem beyond the typical Windows fix of rebooting.
30 days rolled around and the systems stopped working. They tried to reboot them, but there was a special procedure to getting it all to work, plus a very key system had died with a failed RAID controller, which made things worse. So, they called me and ask me to do the work.
There is a quote that I remember right here from Slashdot. It had to do with work/employee related stuff.
"Never consult for free."
I heard about the problem that they had, negotiated what exactly needed to be done, and said that I would do the work for $1,000.00 flat, and could have everything online within 48 hours. We did it respectfully and nobody lost their composure over the phone while I worked this deal out.
It went pretty good, I got my $1K cheque and it got cashed. I did the work and everything was online again. If they sold the product off or not, I don't recall.
The point is that I made my former employer understand that it did not pay my bills to work for free, and that if it was in our mutual interest to do business then we could, for a price which we agreed upon. Everyone was happy when we were done.
Now, if the former employer had been hostile from the start, I question if I would have taken the project on at all. And if I had, I would have made a written contract be signed prior to any work being done. And in the case of financial instability and the possibility of bankruptcy on their part and me not being able to collect on the work done, I would have required a deal that put the funds into special holding by a third party or something similar.
The problem is that the unhappy employer is probably going to do something bad to you. More is broken than they tell you and they are going to blame the broken on you and ask that you fix it for free or they will sue. They are going to try to make you feel guilty into helping them, they are going to do whatever it takes to get some work done by you for free.
Don't deal with bitter former employers or employees unless you absolutely have to, you are going to profit from it, and you make sure that it is going to turn out exactly how you think it will.
and tell him/her the person that called you can't do the job and is calling you for help.
Tell him/her you want her job, and can do it better(which is obvious since she called you).
It sounds like your being an ass, but lets look at it:
She is hurting the company by not knowing what she is doing, and by having an attitude. So if you are kind, shouldn't you imform the people who need the help that they are in trouble?
2)You need work,(I presume). She is calling you, demanding you take your time, and fix a screw up she is in. She is not the kind of employee that does a company any good.
3) she is hostile towards you. As a human being, you do not need to tolerate that, and since your kind, shouldn't you do your best to see that she doesn't treat other emplyees(or ex) that way?
Run your carrer like a business, because know one else out there has your interest, if they did, would you be un-employed?
If you don't want to do that, next time charge 250 dollars an hour. with a minimum hours of twice what you think it will take. I'm serious, if she needs you, you'll get it. espcially if you are saving her ass. It's not like it will come out of her money, just her budget.
As a human being, you do not need to take that kind of crap.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on