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Helping Your Ex-Employer?
ali_bubba asks: "A funny thing happened to me today, I have beeb unemployed for over 5 months, and all of a sudden my ex-Boss calls me and demands (well, it sounded like a demand) that I help her out, because her entire corporate LAN was down. Naturally, she knows that I'm kind person, but boy what attitude, so I did help her save the day. She did not even bother calling me back to thank me, (like if you get slapped, turn the other cheek, as Jesus once said) Has anyone else had this happen to them before? What actions did you take?" While I can understand that some people in this situation may harbor some ill will if place in this situation, it may behoove you to see this as an opportunity, and at the very least, an opportunity to make a little money off of your old company. It doesn't pay to burn bridges, especially if they need something that you can provide. For those who have been in this situation, how did you handle it? For others, if you were offered work from your old job, would you do it, and under what conditions would your perform said work?
ask for consulting fees.
Submit an invoice to her for the time necessary to do this (plus transportation, etc.) to her at my previous rate. This may seem harsh to some or weak-willed to others, but it sends a message that you value your time and expect to be compensated.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
"$200 an hour, minimum 8 hours"
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --H.L. Mencken
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Score 3? For what? Being wrong, at length? - smirkleton
You only mentioned that she did not call to thank you.. Did she at least pay you for your time?
i swear my userid used to be lower.
You should have told her to F.O.A.D. Alternately 100$/hr is also a more polite way to say it. If you continue to offer your services for free, it will get around :(
Rather depends if you need her as a reference...
h
I woulda just billed em. The RAID crashed at the place I had been laid off from last, and the only admin just had a cyst removed from his shoulder so he couldn't type. In a panic, they gave me a call.
:) Got everything back within 45 minutes, spent another half hour "stress testing" the RAID, and I was off.
:)
I had already gotten a new job, but I was happy to work with em on an evening, for $70/hr
I mean, I would have at least charged them $10/hr. if I was you
A polite, "I'm sorry, but my current schedule precludes me from being able to help" works for me.
Of course, if you want/need the work, then just go do it at whatever rate you think is fair. Just bite your lip and don't comment one way or the other, it only leads to problems.
Make sure you get paid! Is she your close friend? If so, you could be nice. If not, bill them! I would suggest billing for the time you spent there to fix this incident as well, it will send a clear signal. IT support is NOT free.
Thank you for calling on the services of ACME Consuling.. Here is my bill for 3hrs (min.) of work at $150/hr.. Please pay the total amount of $450 by the end of the month or there will be an added interest charge of 15% per week after that.
Free Mac Mini
Woke up one morning to an email from a former boss wanting "information about the current SCADA applications" at a place I worked for while under his employ.
That was pretty bad.
Then he said, "Sorry for sending it to you so early in the morning, I need it for a lunch meeting".
It was actually a sales pitch at lunch.
I was pissed, but that didn't set me off.
He sent the email with a HIGH PRIORITY MS Outlook flag, so it had a red ! in my Inbox. !!!!
I debated sending a nasty flaming message regarding compensation for my time, etc.
Then I looked at my clock. 1PM.. Oops. Woke up too late to help you pal.
You didn't say if you billed them. YOu make it sound as if you did it gratis, free, no charge. That would be a big mistake. Otherwise of course you would do work for your old company if they're going to pay you. As with any contract work the fee charged has to make sense. It has to cover your expenses. Medical, transportation, other administrative overhead costs, the going rate for someone with your expertise. And there's no problem in charging a little more if you're familiar with their network. That's simply supply and demand. Work is work. And if you're currently not working any legal work is fair game. Right?
http://tinyurl.com/3t236
In any situation, no matter how well you document what you do, there are going to be a few things that are both specific to your particular setup and not something anyone else at the company knows. I suppose this would be less of a problem the larger your staff is, i.e. how many people there were doing the same job you were. In cases where this is an issue, I think it's pretty reasonable for your boss to call and ask questions, although I think it would be equally reasonable to not answer if you held a lot of enmety towards said boss. If you left on good terms (which it didn't sound like was the case in the post), then the friendly thing to do is give an answer. If they want you to come over and spend time on a problem, then by all means get paid, but if it's just a quick query, then helping them out seems reasonable.
Narrative
Business is business. Its not like you said, 'Oh sure, I will do skilled computer work for you for free.' Send her an invoice at your hourly rate, and thats it. This question is kinda pointless as it seems an open & shut case, but are there other details missing? Otherwise, its simple service -> payment scenerio.
"What can a thoughtful man hope for mankind on Earth, given the experience of the past million years? Nothing." -Bokonon
After three years of always having me to call on to take care of anything IT related, I think they have just gotten used to it.
The first time after I left (I actually quit, was not laid off) that I got the call, I think I handled it the best way possible.
You tell them 'I'd love to help you out. You know I am consulting on my own now, right?'
Explain to them that you are your own business. Find a price that is fair... not unreasonably high, but something that is in a solid ballpark. I settled on twice of what I made hourly for the company. When you consider that a:) you are now going to have to pay additional social security as an independant consultant and are having to pay the costs of your own benifits (health care, etc.), and b:) You don't have a full time job, so a little extra is worth having.
Good luck to you. Remember, you don't work for them anymore. Of course you don't want to mean or vicious to them (to burn your bridges), just be freindly and professional. If you feel that you have some personal obligation to help them out, remember that when they let you go, it was 'just business' to them. Treat them the same way.
Good luck
The Internet is generally stupid
Basic case handling fee: $500,00
Case study: $280
Rapid deployment fee: $843,00
8 workhours: 8 * $184,00 = $1472
Non-office hours: 4 * $380,00 = $1520
Travel expenses: 43 miles * $2/mile = $86,00
TOTAL: $4701
TO BE PAID: $4701 + taxes
DUE: TODAY
Your previous boss didn't ask for price. That means, he is prepared to pay anything.
Sounds like she is still blaming you for her network problems and expected you to solve it even though you aren't there anymore. Pretty ballsy... Also, you don't mention if you were laid off, fired or just quit. That information would contribute to the "how burned you just got" question.
This is like the old joke about the doctor and lawyer playing golf. Another golfer runs up and asks the doctor some medical question. The doctor gives some advice and the man runs off. The doctor asks the lawyer if he ever has similar problems. The lawyer responds, "Not so much anymore. I used to have people asking for free legal advice all the time, then I started sending them bills. They don't ask me for advice so much anymore." The doctor responded that he'd have to start doing that also. A week later the doctor got a bill in the mail from the lawyer for services rendered.
You might not expect (i.e. probably can't force them) to get paid, but it does send the message that you are willing to help in the future, but you aren't going to do for free anymore.
The perfect time to negotiate your hourly rate would have been while the "entire corporate LAN was down." But if you did end up doing the work pro bono, at least your old boss will know she can count on you in the future. Next time make sure to work out the terms ahead of time.
If you end up doing a lot of consulting work, you're going to have to get a business license and (depending on the state) get a tax ID number. Here's a pretty basic article about setting up a consulting business (although it's aimed at Web developers).
Everybody else has said this, but I'll say it as well; they are a business seeking a service, and you are somebody capable of giving that service. That means renumeration for time and expertise, and that means you bill them. They're a business, and it's as simple as that.
It also means you get something in at least an email saying that they've agreed to your rates. That means you bring a time sheet, fill it out, and get them to sign it before you leave. If they don't sign it, undo all the work you just did.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
If whatever you helped with involved having passwords to sensitive information that you had access to while working there, you might want to "forget" those passwords.. They may be looking for someone to take a fall for a break in...
I had one ex-employer, several months after I had quit, call me and ask for some passwords for their main development server... Mind you that half the office knew the passwords to the server, so its not like I was the only one.. There's no way I was going to say that I knew the passwords..
I'm just wondering what can happen to a "good samaritan" in terms of liability. If you hadn't been able to fix the network, or if some malware (virus, trojan) shows up sometime in the near future, what's to stop them from coming after you with a team of attack lawyers? While it's unlikely, if somebody was willing to make a demand of you like that, I wouldn't be surprised if they were willing to play pass-the-buck if something unfortunate happens.
While I admire you for following your beliefs, I don't know that I would have done the same. Only if the livelihood of my friends at the company were jeopardized would I go for it -- or if the money was exceptional.
I was laid off on a Thursday, and the HR person at Nortel told me that I wasn't required to do any more work. Despite this, my manager called me the next day and told me to help them out with one of their online tools. Just like you, I'm sometimes a little bit too kind and helped her out anyway, because I felt that I needed the reference from them in order to get another job. Looking back, I regret helping her... after all, she was the one to put me on the hit list. Anyway, she got laid off three months after me, and I'm running my own business now.
If you could get it, great, but it isn't going to happen. There's a reason this person was laid off - most likely financial, since they were called back to fix a problem - so why would they pay them for all that time?
+5:offtopic,but anti-American
1)We hope you got paid.. either cash, some hot lovin from the cute interns, or you at least walked out with a router or something.
2)Bill them appropriately.
3)Contact your old boss and see if things are still up & running. Never hurts to keep up somewhat decent relations with the old employer.
I'll add my "you shoulda billed 'em" charge to the rest. However, if you didn't negotiate that beforehand, it may look a little sleazy to bill them afterwards. And in my experience, you always meets your business associates later in your career.
Yes, your former boss had no business asking for your free time to help them after they laid you off, but if you agreed to help them at no charge (hoping for some consideration from them), then you might be stuck. Sending them a bill now might just turn your goodwill into bad since that's the last impression she would have of you.
I had a similar situation happen to me once. I left a company after I had built some custom software for them to do some traffic analysis. The VP was angry I left, but everyone else really wanted help to keep updating this application. Initially they wanted to pay me as a contractor (after I left and had another job!) so they could update his application, but the VP shot it down. At the same time, I didn't want to leave my former co-workers in the lurch, so I did them a favor. I told them that I would consult with them (but not touch any code) if they paid for lunch. I got a few free sushi lunches, they got the help they needed, and the VP ended up paying for the bills without knowing what it was about.
So even if you didn't want to explicitly charge your former boss, surely there was some way to get compensated for your time. If you didn't negotiate it the first time, at least you learned a quick lesson. Then again, if she called you once for help and got it, you can be sure that she'll call you again, so you may get your chance after all.
Insert simplistic political, ideological, or personal proselytization here.
I had about the exact same thing happen to me. I was laid off from my job, and not a week later I had a call from my old boss demanding some information. I quietly replied that my consulting fees are $20 an hour and the clock was ticking. Luckily for him it was only a 2 min question (I don't bill for anything under 30 min). However, luckily for me I did answer his question because exactly one month later another department called me back to do some contract work. Like one comment I read it doesn't help to burn any bridges. Sometimes one just needs to swallow his/her pride. Oh and one note I was able to renew my contract and I am working from home. Oh my gosh you guys working from home is so sweet!
I remember a lesson from my business law course in college. The example they used was this.
If you come home and find that somebody mowed your lawn, you do not own them money because you have no relationship.
If you're at a strip club and you say "no thank you" to a lap dance but she performs anyway, you don't owe a thing because even though they performed a service for which you would normally expect payment, you expressly said you don't want a business relationship.
If you see a kid mowing your lawn and you wave to him (or otherwise prove you know he was doing it), you owe him money. By acknowledging that he was performing a service for which you would normally pay you agree to a business relationship.
If you send a reasonable invoice, you can expect to be paid.
Vanguard
That which does not kill me only makes me whinier
Were you fired, or did you quit? If you were fired, then how dare they lay you off and then demand that you help them! If you quit, however, maybe you are still friendly and mighta done this favor? Even so, it is not "rude" to ask for compensation.
- Unlimited Power by Anthony Robbins. My personal favorite.
- Getting to Yes by Roger Fisher and William Ury. The classic negotiation book.
- Start With No by Jim Camp. I haven't read this one, actually, but it sounds very on-topic.
Good luck. Find your strength.Has anyone else had this happen to them before? What actions did you take?
I'd be glad to explain to you all the times that this has happened to me and what actions I took for only $25/hour.
Hey, Ali - I've got a problem with my network over here, too. I can't seem to DHCP addresses with my wireless cards sometimes. Come over sometime today or tomorrow and get it fixed for me before business starts back up on Monday. Call me and let me know what time is best for you.
Thanks.
I have been meaning to do this for a while, and have just not got around to it.
Anyone, while they have money at the time, should look into doing this. Setup a company and be able and willing to bill thru it at a moments notice. That way when you get laid off, you can say you are an employee of YourCompany, LLC, at the time, and not be lieing.
This would go for helping out friends companies etc after hours, or the same situation you mentioned. You could really bill any time through the company.
There are also a lot of companies that are willing to hire you as a contractor for 6 months that aren't willing to hire a new employee. This makes it easier to get such positions.
I have two mottos for this type of situation. "Cash up Front!" and/or "Show me the money!" It is also wise to have them email/fax you a P.O. (Purchase Order) not to exceed ($x). That way if they try to stiff you in the end you can take them to small claims and still collect your fee. Additionally, asking for a P.O. gives the problem a bit of visibility outside of IT. By calling you up and making demands, this loser manager probably took credit for your work. You made her look compotent and she was able to "save the day" with your FREE work. Remember my friend, "Cash up front!", especially if the place laid you off.
I left a job of three years on good terms. The admin they hired to replace me was fired, but they did not follow proper procedures. He came in that weekend and trashed the systems. I was called to see if I could bail them out. I did but at my standard consulting rate. I made money on the side and they got back to work quickly. Everyone was happy.
If you are not on the books there could be legal issues if you make things worse, get hurt, etc.
Be sure that you are on the books as an employee/contractor/etc. whenever you do work for a proir company. This is for your protection as well as that of the employer.
comment directly in my journal
I gave my prior employer my rate, and they decided that it wasn't such an emergency after all. In reality, they just thought they could get me to do the work for cheap since I was so familiar with the subject matter. It turns out they already had another contractor give them a similar price.
If you did the work for them for free, then the ploy worked. I'd guess it probably does, most of the time. Remember, this is business, the thing that keeps you and your family eating.
Can You Say Linux? I Knew That You Could.
When you work for any employer, you should present yourself to your employer as a professional. In return your should expect treatment as a professional. If you don't get it, you should decline to continue your relationship with your employer.
If a former employer called me for help I would eveluate the request using the criterea:
1. Would helping my former employer violate any agreements I have signed with my current employer?
2. Did the former employer live up to their obligations to me as an employee, and treat me as a professional?
3. Did my employment contract with my former employer include any provision that I provide such services?
If 1&2 or 3 are satisfied I would fax the person a standard consulting contract with my hourly rates. On receipt of a signed contract I would then perform the requested services.
If not, I would decline.
The agent pushed me around once too often so I left the customer for a job that paid around 50% more (this broke my heart), I had had no quarrel with the customer. A couple of months later, my old boss at the old customer rang me and told me about a bug in my coding that had come up in production. It was not really worth my time (hourly rates) but it only took me a couple of hours to fix the bug and repair the resulting damage, all my old co-workers went out of their way to give me all the access I needed. Then my ex-boss simply refused to pay me - he seemed to think I had a moral obligation to fix any bugs.
It was not worth suing for (at a guess) $140 so I simply made it clear that any help from now on was going to be on the telephone if I had nothing else more important to do at the time. The guys rang once more, I gave them 5 more minutes of my time and that was it.They offered me a job when I was looking for something 14 years later so I suspect not antagonising them was a safer course, I found something else though
Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
Well, seeing as the last place I was able to find work, I was only offered $5/hour... no. The guy actually had to talk to his accountant to discover the minimum wage. I'm an experienced professional C++/assembly programmer on DSPs. I was doing advertising design, web design, new product design, and planning for future PDA programming for this company too.
His other developer and his family had to live in a trailer - and the boss "gave" him a car and phone, only to hold them over his head. When he was sick for a few days, the boss had that phone disconnected.
The boss even proclaimed to be an experienced Europian developer, and he did fluently speak several languages... so I'm amazed he could treat people that way... and much worse than that on many occasions too. But his company was the only place that would even allow a computer person with less than 3 years experience find a job. He even made quitting a huge hassle - I had to research and quote many specific laws before he dismissed me with "it's not worth my time" to get paid for my two weeks there, even at minimum wage.
Now I'm still looking for a job... any job. And I can't. I haven't for months. I've called half the numbers in the yellow pages and looked at all the leads in all towns within three hours drive. I have to say, looking for work as a programmer in central Florida REALLY sucks.
Ryan Fenton
Yes, I'd help out my old company. But it would be at one hell of a premium price! Basically, you can charge about $125 per hour as a consultant and still have that considered a reasonable rate.
But if they were going to cop an attitude with me, my minimum would be the equivalent of 2 months of my salary at the time I left the company. Half (non-refundable) to be paid up front, the other half to be paid when I've completed the job they brought me on to cover.
In ANY situation, make sure you get a P.O. from them before you show up to do the work!!! It should state what the work is that they expected you to accomplish. If they start asking you to do other things while you are there, tell them to fill out new P.O.'s for those tasks separately, and determine an hourly rate to be charged for every hour spent on those separate tasks. Those separate tasks should be started when you are done with the work paid for by the first P.O.
Be professional! Do the best work you can. Remember, at this point you are an independent contractor. Your work should stand as a testament of what you are capable of as a professional.
Last, when you're done, make sure you give a clear list of what you diagnosed and what you did to fix things. Make sure that the person who authorized the work signs off on it. Don't forget to make a copy! (using their copier, naturally!)
Whew! This water sure is cold!
I was laid off about 7 mos ago. Since that time I have made more money as a consultant than I did in the last year. I kinda needed that push to go it on my own. I have been called in many, many times to deal with problems beyond the skills of my lesser-priced replacement. I have more than gladly helped them. For $130/hr billed in 1/2 hour increments. One note: get a contract signed BEFORE you do anything!
"This calls for a very special blend of psychology and extreme violence" - Vyvyan "The Young Ones"
My ex-girlfriend called me up a couple of nights ago because she needed my talents to work on her setup. I used to get paid for this sort of thing (dinner, massage, her talents on my setup). Should I charge her for that night, or do I have no expectation of compensation?
Reading the replies here, I begin to see now why the tech bust hasn't been over long ago. If you let the company use you like a whore, you will be treated like the whore that you are and you shouldn't expect any better treatment. Unfortunately, the replies to this inquiry confirm that some people don't mind being scabs (i.e. temp workers brought in to obviate the need to hire workers full-time).
... then discover that they really do need somebody around to actually do the work (an indian, not a chief). And as for consulting, well, the fees are pretty stiff.
... "battered spouse" syndrome). Have a little self-respect, otherwise the tech industry will never develop into a profession, on a par with other engineers and architects.
Consulting is one thing, but I draw the line when the client is the company that layed me off in the first place
We made a ton of money back during the 90's. Use the freedom that that doe gives you to resist this kind of exploitation. I do.
Otherwise, it will just be more of the same old, same old. You can count on it. Stop being a whore and think like a responsible human being. Make the companies understand that there are consequences for their actions. That when they hire you, it is a partnership which requires some responsibility to you on their part.
Stop acting like a co-dependent spouse (you know
And I take it as a great compliment when one of my former employers calls for some help. I think you should too. Then again, I know I've been lucky to work for some great people.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
You broke one of the most important rules of employment. Never Work for free! Not only does it assign a zero value to your time, but it assignes a zero value to the time of anyone doing that task.
The second rule you broke, taking a lesson from M$ here, is that if they need you, you've got them exactly where you want the. Grease it up with vaseline and give it to them good and hard, to the tune of at least $100/ hour for skilled IT consulting
Many people have posted that, "You don't want to hurt your chance to use them as a reference." But then again, you don't want them letting your prospective employer that you're a cheap date either.
finally, for the question of returning to any employer as an employee (and not an independant consultant). Remeber this adage... Old Jobs are like old girlfriends, Never go back
I know as denizens of Western civilization (especially the U.S.), our first reaction is
...
... the golden goose lesson) ... and then were hired as outside consultants later. They ended up making a lot more money as a consultant than as an employee (for the same basic work). One is even getting frequent inquiries by the client about possibly joining them full-time.
... but don't scalp them ... fair market wage.
...
[1] Sue them!
and then
[2] How much can I get?
But I think it pays to think about your situation first. There may be some dynamics you might otherwise overlook.
Case A: Laid Off, Unemployed
If you're having problems finding a job, it may pay not to incite your former boss. You never know when your old firm may get a large project and decide to bring aboard some consultants.
While it hasn't happened to me, I have friends who were laid off, provided some occasional support at reasonable rates (this is *key*
Case B: Laid off, Employed Now
You have some incentive to maintain cordial ties with your old firm. But the incentives are definitely reduced by having current employment. If you hated your old firm and want to maintain loyalty with your current one, I'd just pass or agree under some pretty restrictive terms (i.e. define the total # of hours and compensation). Consulting money is nice but, clearly, your long term prospects are not tied with your old firm, better to focus on your current firm.
Case C: Quit
If you were the one who quit the job, I'd consider providing some support especially if you either [1] really left the firm holding the bag or [2] still have friends at the firm who would otherwise suffer. But make sure to get paid
You'd be surprised how this type of action can result in good karma. I had a friend who quit his job for a higher paying position at a high profile company. Unfortunately, lay-offs happened and, as a high-salary newbie, he was one of the first to go. His boss at the old firm - he couldn't rehire my friend - went out of his way to call a few of his competitors to recommend my friend - he did this primarily because he appreciated how my friend provided support (many times for gratis) for several months after he left. My friend got a job based on one of these recommendation.
Case D: Fired
No way in hell. Or make sure it's enough to pay for your big screen plasma TV, your sizable tab at the local watering hole, and possibly a year's rent
After I was laid off (which wasn't that bad - one month's notice, no need to do work after notice. Could've been because I was expecting my second kid, and they were only laying people off to lower their costs so they could be bought out by another company) my supervisor attempted to perform some work on our old novell 4.1 server. The server stopped responding completely after a reboot, and they called me a day after when he finally decided he couldn't recover it.
By then I was consulting for another company at $25/hr, so I simply said I'd charge them that rate. He agreed, I came at 8pm and finished rebuilding the server, restoring data and users about 4am. Sent them a $200 bill, and got the check shortly thereafter.
He called a few times after for info about the isdn internet connection and other miscellaneous stuff, but didn't request that I come and fix things, and the calls were generally fairly short. Since they were nice in allowing me to later get on the router and download the configuration for another job later, I didn't think it was a big deal.
The key is that they need to learn the connection between a smoothly working network and the cost of maintaining one. You, by not asking for payment up front, are reinforcing their idea that networks are free, and the maintenance is free. It's the same reason people don't back up until they've had their first data loss and find out that it'll cost 10x as much to recover some of their data. Same with virus protection, etc. Quality costs, and she needs to know it.
-Adam
As some of the other posters have said, treat it like business. You have a service that they require. Simple supply and demand. If you happen to know the going rate for the service, tell them that is your charge, and make them sign an estimate sheet so that later on if they decide they don't want to pay, you can use that in small claims court. On the esitmate sheet have a disclaimer stating that the signer agrees to pay for the services estimated, even if there are discrepancies in the time estimated, and also agrees to pay all associated costs in said work, including transportation and parts. Cover all your bases before walking in the door. If they say they can get someone else for cheaper, remind them that you are familiar with the system and that kind of familiarity will save you time over someone else, so while their rate may be cheaper, they will end up spending more time and costing more money just getting familiar with the system.
.sig: It's what's for dinner.
I had a similar situation -- I was laid off the 1st of the year. In the following months, my previous firm contacted me regularly, mostly asking how I was doing, letting me know they wanted me back & were looking for ways to accomplish that, etc.
:)
Then one day I got a call from them. They had a customer who wanted some work done, but it was such a small job that just drafting the agreement would be more expensive than the job was worth. They contacted me and told me if I wanted to freelance the job, they'd put me in touch with the customer. I accepted it (of course). it turned out that it was too small for even a freelance charge, but I answered the guys question and it generated positive advertising for my previous firm.
A month later, I got another call from them -- another freelance job - this one was for the wife of the head of my old firm. I again accepted it and his wife was happy with my results.
Then my old manager called. He didn't have a freelance offer this time -- he wanted some advice on how to collect unemployment! (yeah, business got so bad the managers were being let go...) So I was very helpful & supportive of him too -- told him where to go to sign up, what the process was, etc.
Then I got one last call -- now I'm working full-time for my old firm again. They were so happy with my attitude and willingness to help them out even after letting me go that they found a spot for me & I'm gainfully employed again -- with my full benefits just like I never left (3 weeks vacation, I'm vested, etc). Admittedly, it WAS a paycut from my old salary, but in this market, I'm not complaining
Sorry about all the rambling. I guess what I'm trying to say in a nutshell is: Don't burn your bridges. Having a positive attitude and being willing to help them out can never hurt - it can only help. Even if they don't have any openings, they may hear of other firms that need people & could suggest you -- or give you a positive review when a future employer starts checking references. You never know when someone may be talking to them and your name may come up...
You had a good business opportunity come your way. Many a successful consultant have started this way. You work for a company, you are laid off by shortsighted management, they realize their mistake a little too late, they call on you. What do you do? You could be chump, and show them that they did right by laying off your immature ass, or you could turn it into a profitable business opportunity. You have the upper hand in the negotiation. Come up with a good rate (twice your old rate is a good place to start), then negotiate the minimum amount of billable time. Depending on the type of work you do it could be anything from eight hours, to forty hours, to the entirety of an ongoing project. Be creative. This is were the money is made, and were you can establish lasting recurring billing cycles. If the work that they are asking you to do is part of an ongoing project and you feel that there is a chance that they'll call on you again, negotiate for the remainder of the contract. Sweeten the deal. Profit off their shortsightedness, but don't kill the goose, and above all realize that you are now your own person, you don't need them, they need you.
I am a virus, put me in your
Yeah, but he's 5 months without a job.
It's hard to make outage like that. Surely there must been at least one other admin for that time.
Well, I've got setled with my former boss. I own my own company now for 2 years. He pays upfront for my work, but he's just satisfied because I'm buying hardware I need only from his company, so money is rolling equally
Signature Pro version 1.13.2-3 release 83.5 beta3try7 after-breakfast edition
My story is somewhat similar to the original post, but doesn't relate to a former employer, rather, a former girlfriend (of several years), and her employer.
She worked at a high-volume, high-tech print shop which I had written software for some two years prior to our breakup. Some 8 months after our break up, she called me up and asked if I could troubleshoot a problem with their LAN, and consequently, problems they were having accessing the local side of the software I had written for them ( web based file/job management & tracking app for their print ready graphics files, some 250+ uploads a day).
My response was simple, direct, and immediate: $5,000, up front.
Suffice it to say, I was never bothered again.
Moral of my story? Sure, your former 'employer' can ask for all the help in the world, and it's totally up to you if you give it to them, or, as any right-minded American would do, SELL it to them.
I know how much my time is worth, but it sounds like you're a little too naive.
In my particular situation, as of about two weeks ago, I would have to take a totally mercenary approach. In other words, I'd swallow the money, but I'd hold my nose. For those of us who have house payments, etc. it's the only option.
But now that I have a new job, if my old employer came crawling back now, I would literally laugh at them with the most ridiculous Dr. Evil laugh I can muster. I'm totally serious. My layoff was completely political (well, partially, because she did have to reduce headcount), and was the most harmful choice my manager could have made. For her team, the company, and my family. I have nothing but bitterness. I would only help her if I had no choice.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
In 1999 the company I worked for closed the local office and offered me a job at another location. After considering the offer including the 20% raise in pay I declined. A couple of weeks after the closure I got a call asking if I would help train the new manager. I submitted a proposal outlining my terms including hourly rate, daily rate, retainer rate, mileage charges, etc. After everything was said and done I provided consulting services to the company for over two years and earned nearly as much as I had as a full time employee for far fewer hours.
The results you get will depend upon the perceived value of your services and your professionalism. I would ignore any assumption that work be performed for free. Simply state when asked to perform a service that you would be glad to provide the services for a fee. Name an amount or an hourly rate that you think is reasonable. Also make sure that any requests for work are approved at the proper level of authority.
Remember if you don't value the services you provide, no one else is going to.
To add insult to injury I didn't get paid much of my accumulated vacation time. I'd been foregoing taking my time as we were in such a crunch, got promised it would carry over, etc. Due to poor record-keeping on my part (and being young and stupid) I didn't pursue the issue much but wrote it all off as lesson-learned.
Anyway a few moths later I got a call from a friendly former coworker asking me, in a very stilted way, about some security systems I had written, what was the password, etc. I picked up pretty fast that this wasn't actually a social call, that my friendly co-worker wasn't alone in the room, that they wanted me aware of such, and they were being pressured to make this call.
So, I told them no, I didn't recall the exact passwords but I was sure I could break into what I'd secured and would be happy to do so under contract. I then quoted them an outrageous hourly rate, said as I was unhappy with my former employer I' double that, and no assurance of how long it would take me. My friendly former co-worker politely thanked me and said they'd "pass it on".
Sure enough an hour later I got a call asking me to come in ASAP. So I did. I got them to confirm the rate in writing, refused to give an estimate, and sat down. And played games, very visibly, for two days, until the sum I felt I was owed in vacation time was met. About 10 minutes after that point, just as I was finishing up my report, the finance guy came in with a pre-written check (they knew perfectly well what was going on) and asked me for the password.
I handed him my report, told him I'd call from the bank with the password as soon as I'd cashed the check. He balked at that but I pointed out that many of my payroll checks had "bounced" but had been covered by the bank, I wanted to be sure there'd by no awkward problems with this one. He threatened to void the check if I didn't give them the passwords, I said fine I'd be no worse off then before, and if he didn't get out of my way I'd call the police for imprisonment. He gave way and I left.
So, 30 minutes later from the bank I called, told him the password used on everything, and then took some friends out for drinks, including the friendly former co-worker who had slipped out early. By the way the friendly coworker resigned the next day, the nasty Sr, person lasted another few months, the whole place went under a few years later.
Oh, and a few times later I was in situations where Sr. folks from that place were applying for jobs and I was in the decision process, each time I knifed 'em.
If she feels that she doesn't need to pay, inform her that you certainly can undo the work you did.
That can be construed as a threat. A threat will get you nowhere.
Depending on where you are, $200 per hour may be ridiculously low.
If you live in one of these areas, please let me know where it is!
As Cliff stated, you don't want to burn any bridges. Even those that you desperately want to burn, should be maintained. You never know who or when you will need someone in your future.
At the same time do not let anyone take advantage of you. You said that this was a former employer. This immediately releases you of ANY responsibility or obligation to them, you don't work for them anymore!
This could be a slightly grey area if you had recently, within a couple of weeks, left the job on your own accord and the failed system was your responsibility. But, even here there is no REAL responsibility, simply a matter of your own moral feelings on the matter. But, you stated that this emplyer became former 5 months ago. No matter what the reason for your departure there is absolutely positively no obligation on your part after this period of time.
The next time you are presented with this situation, stop for a moment and think. First what are your feelings? Simply, do you want to do it or not? Secondly, review your current situation. Are you working somewhere else and are really to busy to spare the time or perhaps it may be a conflict of interest if you are working for a competitor now. In your case, you stated that you are unemployed so these would not be a problem here. You have time and there are no conflicts.
So, having decided that you can do it and that you want to do it, the next step is to specify the terms of a short term contract. Yes, contract. Even if it is only verbal you are still entering into a contract with this company. You need to come to an agreement on the type and amount of reimbursement for your time. You also need to agree to a set of milestones, if you will, that will be used to determine the successful completion of the contract.
For example, the situation that you related should have gone like this... Yes Jane, I am confident that I can resolve your problem. As it happens I am available to do consulting work of this kind, right now. My fee is $100 per hour for this type of work and I do charge travel time at that rate.
Janes response will likely be: "Wow, I don't want to pay that much." To which you should reply: "I certainly understand that but, that is a competitive rate in the industry and it is what I charge. I suspect from what you have told me so far that it might take 6 hours to fix your problem." At that point she will either say flat out no, and move on to another consultant, or she will say that she has to get back to you. This will give her time to get approval for the expenditure and also get estimates from other consultants. If she calls back make sure that she is in agreement to pay you for fixing the problem and that she fully expects to pay at LEAST $600.
Of course, Jane might decide to try to bully you when you advise her of your rate. She might say something like: "What?? $100 an hour?? No way. You built this system and it has never be right! It's your responsibility and I expect you to fix it immediately! I'm not paying you to fix your own mistakes. In fact, if you don't fix it, we will probably sue you!"
Your response to this should be: "I understand that you feel it is my responsibility, Jane. However, I do not work for you anymore therefore, it is NOT my responsibility. I'm sorry that you feel that I did not build the system properly however, the fact that it has worked for several months without me suggests that it was in fact, working properly. Even so, it is still not my responsibility anymore. But, I would be glad to look at it for you, as a consultant.
Finally, if Jane says that they are going to sue you, end the discussioin right then and there. Say: "I am afraid that, under the circumstances, I will not be able to assist you with your problem. I wish you the best of luck with it. Thank you for calling." click.... Naturally, this assumes that you do indeed not have any contractual liability to the problem. In your specific case, after 5 months, you didn't.
Here's how to bring up the topic of compensation if you're not talking to a particularly helpful one:
I'm in a similar situation, but not quite.
I work for a microscopic consultant company. We have four clients. Thanks to the economic climate one client has dropped us, one client has cut down on consultant fees and one client wants to use us, but has no budget. The fourth client is still going strong, I hope (I work for the other three). Our budget is stretched to the limit.
What to do? I'm sitting on my ass (with a relatively large paycheck) two days of the week, at least. We decided to use my time to make a (large) prototype web service for client three (the ones who want us but have no budget), hoping that they'll accept it for free in return for paying us to flesh it out.
Essentially, I have put in >200 hours of work (so far) without any revenue for the company. Am I their bitch? Am I just sensible? Should I seek other employement? (That last bit was rethoric. I haven't gotten any replies in the last four months...)
Suppose a former employer contacted me, wanting some help... Would I go "Of course. $100 an hour, minimum charge four hours." or would I go "Yeah! Sure! I'll do it all day Sunday, no charge!". Depressingly enough I think I would go with the latter, hoping they are thinking of rehiring me.
I choose to remain celibate, like my father and his father before him.
Assuming nothing of that sort, you could do a couple of different things. If you're really trying to start a contracting gig, send a follow-up letter pointing out that you solved their problem quickly and easily, you're in business, this one was pro bono to show your talent, but in the future they would need to pay you. Quote hourly and retainer rates. If you just want to feel morally superior, send them a bill. Twice your previous hourly rate sounds right. Include all travel time. Take pride in the fact that you pay your debts, even if they don't.
If they don't pay, you print "Past Due" on the bill next month, and send it again. Add 1.5% per month as a past due fee.
If they still don't pay after 90 days, you file a claim in small claims court. Very seldom do things reach that point. If you go to court, and you did the work, you'll get a judgement in your favor. Then either they pay, or you find out where their bank account is and get an order attaching it.
I have to tell this to some of my artists friends now and then. They're always doing little jobs for small businesses and not getting paid. All have been paid by the second invoice.
The one time I went back and did a job for a previous employer, I charged them about a thousand dollars for a weekend. And that was in the 1970s.
Surprisingly, you won't be hated for this. You'll b e respected.
Businesses are a for-profit corporation. Do not forget this, every when dealing with them. If they can get free resources, then that will be more profitable to the business, and they will continue to use these free resources as much as they can in order to maximize profits.
If you are no longer employed, there is no gain (profit or otherwise) for you in doing a free favour for a for-profit business. The business won't return the favour. They will be too "overworked", and unable to spare the resources to return such a favour.
Now perhaps you forgot to document something when you left a company, and you could quickly (i.e. not use your most valuable asset, time) answer the question. Perhaps you felt that your actions would improve your reference from said manager to help you secure a job in the near future. Those are reasonable cases, but in general, it is a waste of your time/resources to work for the company that does not employ you. You need to concentrate on finding gainful employment.
"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you. You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." (Matthew 5:38:45 RSV)
From the Sermon on the Mount. Okay, smart guy?
[...]like if you get slapped, turn the other cheek, as Jesus once said...[...]
Yeah, but Jesus never had to fix a LAN.
Boss: "My Lord, could you get our 250-node token ring VAX LAN back online? You'll need to check every inch of the coax cable, duct-taping nicked insulation as needed."
Jesus: "Fuck that!"
waiting to get smited,
horati0
The neutrality of this sig is disputed.
My ex boss was on the phone with the FBI telling them I hacked the network and took down the webserver (nationwide ISP with ONE webserver).
One of the othe employees called me and told me (good friend) and advised that I call him. So I did, and within 30 seconds the server was up and all was dandy. I didn't get a thankyou, just a "If you do it again I'm going through with the FBI complaint".
The dumb ass he replaced me with switched out the BSD kernel for the GENERIC one which couldn't handle the apache requests without running out of file handles. Of course it's all my fault.
So consider yourself lucky she called for help. It could have been much worse.
it might help to remember this:
No matter how much you feel like that network is your baby, your creation, and no matter how well you know it... it's not yours, and you are only responsible for it because they are PAYING you to be responsible for it.
If you leave, you are no longer responsible.
Now, if you leave to another bigger, better job, and things are going well for you, and you have no hard feelings, and the new guy calls up with a simple question or two... answering it for free is not wrong; that's just being a good person.. keeping your doors open.
If they want actual labor from you, make them pay. If you feel the need to be generous, give them a reduced rate.
On the other hand, if they terminated your employment.. fired or laid off, you should NOT answer any questions. You should flatly point out that your responsibility for their system ended the moment you were fired, and that you are not really interested in helping them out.
I've seen the posts saying 'invoice them.' Don't. Invoicing them at some rate you dreamt up and to which they did not agree is simply unprofessional. If you want some compensation for this, I suggest that you contact your ex-boss, for whom you did this favor, and ask her for a letter of recommendation.
Should this happen again in the future, express your gratitude for being offered the work and then politely inform them of your rate (or a flat fee). Spell out any minimums (e.g., 4 or 8 hour minimum), whether the billing starts from the time you begin work or if it is portal-to-portal (i.e., includes travel time), and payment schedule (e.g., downpayments, terms -- like net 30, payment in advance, etc.). If they balk at reasonable terms, then be polite but firm and tell them that you cannot accept the work.
If you do your ex-employer a favor, then you should make sure that it was you that decided to. I have, on occasion, sent ex-employers e-mails warning them of bugs and product updates for systems that I set up while under their employ. I don't expect to be paid for that in anything other than good will.
like if you get slapped, turn the other cheek, as Jesus once said
Jesus's situation would have been more analogous if Pontius Pilate had demanded that Jesus do unpaid work for him after the crucifixion. Besides, Jesus was not always in fear of losing his job to a cut-rate, H1-B messiah brought in from some third-world country. He'd have gotten pretty tired of being slapped around had he been in the computer industry.
Several years ago, I had a small contract to do flash design for the website for a small indie film. The pay structure was divided 25%, 25%, and 50% for the final. The first two were fine, and the project was going smoothly. After finishing the project though, I kept getting the run around about my final payment.
Eventually they had the premiere of the movie, and I was invited. At this premiere I was told that, sorry, they had no more money, and couldn't pay me. They had overestimated the $$ in their bank, and it turns out the last of their money was spent on the refreshments for their premiere party. Sucks to be me, but I didn't counter them legally, it was less than $1000 and I just wrote it off as a loss and broke all connections.
About a year later, the same people thought that they were finally getting a bite on their movie, and decided they desperately needed to update their website. They contacted me and asked why they had never received the source code for their movie, as per the contract--they needed it so that so-and-so's cousin, who 'knew flash' could update the website. I told them, because I had never gotten paid, also per the contract. When they didn't pay me, I said, the contract was broken.
At this point they got really upset and brought in so-and-so's uncle the lawyer and told me that what I had made was a piece of crap and the money they already paid more than covered the value of the project. And that if I continued to resist, they would sue me.
This was on my birthday. I've never had a bad birthday since. No matter what happens, I will always remember how this one was worse.
Eventually, after spending half my birthday on the phone, I knew what I had to do. Like I said, the original amount just wasn't enough to call a lawyer about, and I decided this wasn't either. Also, I had no money and even if I won this case it would be on the other side of the country which was just more money out of my pocket. So I told them, ok, I'll give you the source code exactly as it is right now, and you'll leave me alone for good and neither one of us ever talks to the other one. Ok, they said.
What was my trick? My code (and my flash movies are highly dependant on actionscript) was completely uncommented. It would have been a beast for me to figure out, and more so for somebody else that knew flash as well as I did. And much more so for so-and-so's cousin that 'knew flash'.
In the end, they got off my back, I wasn't sued on my birthday, and I came out feeling like I had won anyway. Because they were never able to figure out my source, and were never able to update their website. (and incidentally, never sold their movie)
Punctanym: alternate spelling of words using punctuation or numerals in place of some or all of its letters; see 'leet'
There's no benefit in burning bridges unnecessarily, but there's also no benefit in doing work for an ex-employer gratis. Not only do you (obviously) not get paid for your trouble, but you now have a "sucker" sticker on your head. They'll call again, and you'll probably help them again. For nothing.
It's quite frankly outrageous that an ex-employer would call you up and demand that you do work for her. At the very least this shows a serious lack of professionalism on the part of your former employer. Perhaps it's best that you're no longer working for her anymore after all.
If an ex-employer calls you up and asks you to do some work (that is not explicitly included as part of an exit package), then you tell them you are more than happy to do it ... and your hourly rate.
Many people think that IT personell are some kind of running clerks at a cafe. These ones have absolutely no respect for your brains, your experience and your sweet. More, they tend to hide their incompetence, ignorance and stupidity behind a mask of arrogance and superiority. If your ex-boss called you demanding something, the first thing you should have done was to say "Cool but that will cost you US$XXXX...". If he comes up with threats and dubious statements about your past work, you better send him fast to Hell and tell him to forget your name and your phone.
Beware that you open-hearthed behaviour could have caused more damage rather than help to yourself. There are times when old bosses start to talk too much about their ex-employees as "smarties that left hacks and bombs to spoil our work". And when you come back and do something in half-second, they may try to use it to make a serious accusation that you tried to crook them. While I have never seen such stories getting to courts, there are pretty real examples how ex-bosses tried to extort cheap work out of their ex-employees by playing such scenarios. Personally, many years ago, I was in such situation and things nearly ended in a violent fight inside a "respectable" commercial bank.
My last employer was a non-profit that still hosts some of my web work that I list at the top of my resume... the guy that replaced me is only part time and doesn't really have the time to learn my system... and if I don't help him out, that increases the likelihood of the group deciding to scrap my work and replace it with some pre-packaged deal... so when they need help, time permitting, I help out as much as I can because 1) it's a non-profit and 2) I still need the code online as a demonstration of my work...
But that's just me... in your case, I would have asked for a consulting fee...
http://starboard.flowtheory.net/
The author doesn't give the circumstances of his unemployment. Did he quit, was he laid off, took another job that didn't work, or was he fired. That would have some effect. If there is mutual hatred it depends on whether you want to be considered the better person or if it would be "throwing pearls after swine" (is this only the beginning of a free computer helpline so the ex-boss can avoid doing what is needed).
If it was something trivial (a minute or two) I wouldn't charge. If I left under good terms (did the layoff come from the boss or from corporate central?) I would probably continue to help and ask to be rehired at the first opening.
Depending on what it was beyond that, I would ask them to fax a P.O. or simple agreement that they would pay or consider me rehired for the necessary period.
A long time ago, I worked for a very small place that sold integrated systems for vertical markets. It was *small* - just myself and the owner, and when the day came that the owner started using the phrases "cash flow difficulties" and "your paycheck" in the same sentence, I promptly found other employment.
... err, "customers", yeah, that's the word :) who had bought the systems we sold, but that one place had copped a major attitude.
For several months after the company folded, the customers called me to come out and fix their systems. Most of the customers were very good about it, and I was happy to be able to help them. One place, though, was a real bear.
To start with, they had bought the computers from somebody else, who never bothered with the software. The machines were constantly doing the crash-n-burn thing, and the shoddy software that my boss wrote didn't help things much. They were also in a rather bad neighborhood, one where a single white girl was decidedly not safe after dark. Lastly, they were going through bankruptcy too, so they had zero money to pay for anything.
So, given these, they had the gall to call and *demand* that I drive into the city, during rush hour, to fix their system. As for payment, they were not going to pay me at all - I guess they figured that the pitiful salary that I had made while working for my boss was plenty enough.
I tried, too, really I did. After spending about 2 hours to get past the first tollbooth en route in, I gave up, took the first exit, and then spent another two hours driving home. I had no problem with helping the other poor dumb suckers
Needless to say, I never heard from them again, thankfully.
Lemon curry?
Something like this happened to me a number of years ago. I was working at a student job, managing a small network, destop publishing and other stuff. I was the computer guru for a large bookstore near campus. I had helped a friend of mine get a similar job, and we worked together. My friend was, in his youth, fairly arrogant. Our boss had failed to earn his respect: she took work that was beyond our capability, largely based on the knowledge that my friend and I could achieve results despite the shortcomings of the hardware and software. We never received recognition for our work. The more we did, the more was expected of us. I was a short-timer, but there was friction between my friend and our boss.
When I graduated and moved on, they lost the buffer that they had between them, and the friction flared up until my friend found himself unemployed.
Shortly thereafter ex-boss lady called me and asked for some help with some project she couldn't handle. I didn't get anything like the attitude suggested by the poster of the story: she was polite, but definitely looking for a freebie.
She wasn't a bad person -- maybe too zealous and a little naive. And underfunded. You know how it goes. I found myself in a dilemma. I was disappointed at how my friend had been treated, but I didn't really want to see my ex-boss go down in flames, either.
My solution was to politely express the strategic error I thought had occurred when my friend had been "let go". I gave her my consulting rates, and an estimate of how much I thought the project was worth.
She thanked me and hung up. I never heard back from her or the company. Shortly thereafter, I found out she had moved on, or maybe forced to move on.
Anyway, my advice in this situation is to remember you don't owe your previous employer anything. (Well, maybe you do, but I'm assuming you don't.) You're entitled to compensation for your services. If my ex-boss had been impolite or disrespectful, I would have had no compunction telling her where to go, or maybe jacking up my rates.
--
bachiatari na torisetsu o yome!
You can't change the past. But you can draw a line in a non-confrontational way, where you define your future relationship...
,
Dear
Glad I could help out with . As I have demonstrated in the past, I enjoy the opportunity to solve problems and assist in any way possible.
In the event you require additional assistance, I have attached my standard price schedule. I'd be happy to discuss discounts for extended work, or on-call or after hours rates.
I look forward to working with you again in the future.
Sincerely,
ALso, a minimum number of hours is also worth it. Min 3 is fair for most tasks like KIA server. Min 2 or even 1 if the task is pidly and you want to make the point. Also make it know that your charging system works like the telephone company's long distance system, only you count by hours and not minutes. Ie, you round up to the next hour regardless if you work 5 or 45 minutes into an next hour.
You should have all this stuff typed up in a contract and have it signed by the boss (no one else!) as soon as you get onsite. Without it, don't do any work. Also don't negotiate. That's the contract, take it or leave it. You need to have legalease wording that absolves you of all responsibility if the system breaks again after you leave. You need to make it clear that you can't be sued after the fact. I travel is required, include a blurb about mileage and the rate. Include text that says what will happen if they fail to pay by 30 days after service is rendered. Also say that failing to pay also includes a bad check.
Carry a carbon copy ticket book with you. As you work on different systems, write out what the system is and why you're doing it on the carbon form. Write down every system you have to touch and the major points of what you do to each. "Had to reboot border router." "Had to kick the DNS box in the nads". Before you leave have the boss (no one else!) sign the each carbon page (if you had to use multiple pages) and give them one set of the carbons and file away the others. This way you can show exactly what systems you touched. If their NT box breaks later and you didn't touch it, they can't blame you for it. It's also very wise to record all tty output (commands, stdout, etc). If you have a laptop with a CDR in it, burn two copies to disk. Both you and the boss should sign both. Give them one. Don't let them leave you alone at any point and time during the onsite visit. If you aren't alone, they can't claim you stole backup tapes from the locker or pissed under the raised floor.
Write every password they gave you on the carbon mentioned above. Include in your contract that they are responsible for changing every password they gave you after you leave. Also include that you are absolved from any future damages coming from said systems where the passwords weren't changed. Writing it on the carbon emphasizes this.
It's important to make sure the signatures are from a person at the company authorized to pay you. Odds are you old super isn't authorized to make such payment. The director of the dept is usually the person that can do such things. They could potentially claim that the person that signed the contract wasn't authorized to make such agreements. Don't give them a way out like that.
It wouldn't hurt to use a tape recorder for all verbal conversations and make that something else they agree to in the contract.
Have the contract say something about parking (if parking garage fees are incurred or if a certain parking permit is required for parking (tickets or towing are the penalty).
All these are just some of the ways you could potentially get screwed. It's better to take precautions beforehand than post mortem.
May the bridges I burn behind me light my way ahead.
If I was in your situation, it would depend entirely on how I was treated while I was employed there.
They obviously didn't give a crap about your situation when they laid you off. If careers were like dating going back would be like friends with benifits, and i've never seen those situations work out...
You start doing little odd jobs, either you're going to desire working there again or they'll desire to have you back. Once a layoffer, always a layoffer. Don't trust them as far as you can cook em.
At your "standard" $275 an hour rate.
"Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons!"
It's all very much like what everyone else is saying.
You didn't mention whether you were paid for your services?
I once did some voluntary work for 6 months for a charity, once the term ended they lost some of their accounts data and gave me a call to see whether I could fix it for them, I said sure, I'll pop into their office and take a look. It was a pretty trivial problem, they had lost a disk and needed to restore from backup. I installed their accounts software on another system and grabbed the data from Backup - about 30 minutes work.
I didn't expect payment, but they gave me a small sum which certainly covered my expenses and time.
These days I would never consider doing free-work for a company which previously paid me.
You also didn't state how you left your ex-employer, whether you handed in your notice, got fired or were made redundant. From the fact that you are currently unemployed I assume that you involuntarily left your job. While going back there to fix their mess may give you a short term "last laugh" in the matter, you should certainly proceed to try to get payment for your work.
And if they didn't ask you nicely you should really tell have told them where to go and have referred them to an active LAN/WAN consultant who should charge in the region of $900 a day and probably take 3 days to fix the problem as they won't have any experience with that particular company's setup.
The thing is.. you were very clearly in the right. You could have countersued.
If they didn't pay you for the work, you don't owe them the finished product. You don't even need a lawyer to explain that to a judge.
the company is to you. Working for free after being laid off gives them something and you nothing.
At one time, I was hired to work at a company where I knew and was friends with several of the people in the division I'd be working in. A while later, the company had a financial crisis only the senior management was aware of, and the CEO called people one night with no warning to lay them off. During the call, he told me he was sorry friendship desires and business needs had to diverge, but that business needs won when the two conflicted.
I answered followup emails and calls during my severance pay period, and forwarded email directly to me from clients to the approapriate people who took over responsibility for those clients then and afterwards. The company hasn't asked me to do anything for them since my severance period ended. If they did, my friendship for them would lose to my business needs, and I would set a reasonable hourly rate for my assistance.
I would, but the only reason I came here in the first place was to help my parents out. They have a pet store here, and I want to be able to help them out while I finish my last few classes on my BS degree. It's worth it either way to me. I'd just like to find someone I can help more than the animal label-maker programs and things I throw together for them. On the bright side, I have learned to be quite a good cook in the meantime!
Ryan Fenton
She solicited you for work.
You performed the work.
Bill the company for your work. List here as the authorizing entity.
You are a professional. Your work has worth. Charge for it. This is common practice in many professions. Just ask a lawyer for advice sometime. Casual or not, whatever the social setting, expect to be billed. An old joke along those lines is:
While commuting to work a man asked his friend, a lawyer, "Hey, I was talking to a CPA at a party and asked him some questions about retirement plans. Then I got a bill for $50 in the mail, what should I do? Pay it or ignore it?" The friend replies, "He rendered a service to you at your request, just pay him." A few days later he received a bill from his lawyer friend for $250 with the line, "Rendered legal consultation while traveling for business purposes."
The moral of the story is, if you feel your work has value, charge for it.
- Tjp
I am in wallow with my inner money grubbing capitalistic pig. ... Oink!
Sure, do the work, and charge the going rate, ( or slightly less if you are REALLY nice guy ) and make sure they understand that it's beacuse you are nice you are doing it on short notice..
But never never do it for free.. Thats just silly, and bad business practice.. ( on both sides really.. one didnt get paid, other has no guarantee since no work was 'purchased' )
---- Booth was a patriot ----
It's simple!
Never work for free for corporations. Why do anything else? They consume our lives and produce wealth for others.
I have done this on occasion. I simply ask for pay arrangments, PO # and contact name.
When I show up, I have a copy of the invoice for services to be rendered with the terms printed clearly on there. Someone gets to sign that and keep a copy.
Do the work, be nice about the hours, and bill them.
Done this way, I reserve the right to actually persue collections, which I have never had to do.
Remember their actual cost of employment for you is, on average, 135% of your last wage. You can ask for this much with impunity because they have demonstrated they can pay that amount.
Personally I double it, and be considerate about the billing hours and such. Underpromise and overdeliver so they see you providing a good value.
A couple times, I was turned down. They said it was too much. Too bad. Wonder how much they paid exactly? More than I would have charged them. BTW, when this happened, I let them know that I was avaliable anytime if they run into trouble getting the work done and that my time is valuable.
It is very important to set the expectations up front. That way, you maintain a good position in case things go south, or the project ends up bigger than they realize. (Which if you were doing your job, is highly likely!)
Blogging because I can...
I am a problem solver. I get out of bed every day to solve new problems, not get paid to repeatedly solve the old ones (BORING). By freely sharing my knowledge, disclosing and mostly documenting my customizations, I have been able to foster an environment of trust with my clients. They won't hire anybody else because they know our industry is chock full of tricksters like yourself.
So thanks for doing your part in enhancing my job security.
cat
He also spoke of the proverb which discussed a day's work for a day's pay. It's your wage, go get your paycheck!
This sig no verb.
a few years ago with the last company I worked for. I had a friend who quit and got a better job elsewhere. However, he was asked if he could do after hours work and he would be paid, well he loved this since he gets to play arround with another network and not have to get things working.
Well, what happened is, he never charged, the local admins (me included) was canned. All because of this guy (well the economy being a big part)
What sucks is I told this guy what would happen, and well, 2 people ended up canned over it, and they have a network that doesn't work. (most the sun systems are in storage)
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive
I've been on the receiving end of that, after killing myself for about a year on one gig, they hire a full-time tech director. Turns out he wants to hire his buddy, and being smarter than the both of them, I represented a serious threat. Get this - the new guy told them they had to install accessible cable trays (in a school) down all the hallways because the cables I had installed in the walls/false ceilings "were'nt expandable". And the client bought it! Guess they never heard of a hub...or 802.11. And I'll bet the cables dangling out of the cable trays and the holes punched through the drywall look so much better.
cat
I would have zero compunctions toward specifying a consulting rate. Expressed hourly, and with an understanding of the work at hand, and a further understanding that if the scope of the work changes, then more negotiation will be required. Since the example was an emergency, it would have been appropriate to *quickly* negotiate fixing the immediate problem.
It would be unprofessional to do this under any other circumstances! Going to a for-profit business to do counsulting work on a strictly volunteer basis, off all records, etc., is not at all professional behavior! Even if you are willing to volunteer your time and resources, there should be some accontability. Consider this: Volunteer workers at nonprofit organizations report their hours.
Anyhow, there are good and bad ways to say "My consulting rate is 50 dollars an hour for short term projects, and is negotiable for long term projects. My weekend and holiday rate is $250.00 an hour, and if travel is involved, 42 cents a mile is expected."
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
I hope you got paid for your time; if you didn't, then that's messed up.
If you accept temporary quick-fix jobs from old employers, you should demand a higher salary per hour than you would normally get.
If she's not willing to pay you a reasonable salary for your time, then you shouldn't do it. Imagine if it were vica-versa, and you called up your old company sand said, "I don't work for you any more, but just for old time's sake, could you please send me a pay check?"
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
I think the key is What did you do for them? answer simple "Do you remember how this worked?" type questions, or did you diagnose and fix the problem for them.
It is fair to call up with simple questions that are just a matter either "No, I don't recall that", or "It worked like this...". They must be simple questions where you do not have to think. (If you are doing noting else at the time you might hold the line while their experts think out the problem, but don't think for them).
If they want you to think out the problem, you need to charge for services. Be reasonable, but remember you know the system so you are better than the average expert off the street!
P.S. If you are asked simple questions DO NOT think for them. I have been gotten in trouble because of this. In that case I went to my mentor with a simple question that was in his area of expertise, and he took the problem from me, and then complained to the boss that I left all the work for him. (I was asked to leave over that issue, so of course I'm ticked)
I had a situation where I was working on some horrible QuickBasic code for a POS( Piece of Shit/Point of Sale both!) system. At the time I started the job I was young, stupid and politically inept. As a result, I lost my job later due to some moves that were a result of my lack of politicking. I was correct, technically, but people don't respond well to "You're an idiot and here's how I can make you not an idiot."
Flash forward about 3 years. The main developer on the project has become extremely burned out, the company has been sold and is moving to Phoenix (where I moved to shortly after this disaster) and they're asking him to continue working on the code. This is 2000 or 2001 if memory serves...
He refuses and states that there are two people in the US - himself and me - that can maintain the code.
A little background on the "system" is probably in order before I go on. It's QuickBasic (still!) running on DOS and coded so that nothing but old Lantastic NE2000-coax cards will work. The company did not want to pay a $15 per seat license for a DOS WinSock to communicate with the NT server on site, so he had to write a TCP stack. Oh, the workstations are all diskless, too, so BOOTP had to be written in.
Add to this the fact that the original software was still in use and was written by RPG programmers who wanted to learn to program on PC's. The typical methodology in the program was to call a subroutine, use a
statement to jump to some other portion of the program and then use a to jump back to the line following the original subroutine call. Needless to say, the stack was totally hosed after a few minutes of running this type of code.We couldn't rewrite the code because "it would be a waste of money" so we had to do neat things like write assembly code to give us a clean stack frame and put the old one back when we're done, shove it into a string and call it from within the subroutine. The really nice thing about this is that when you change the code or order of subroutines, you need to rewrite the assembly.
So, about 6 months to a year ago, the company calls me to ask if I'd be interested in working on their POS system. They're willing to offer me a whopping $15 an hour to work on it, too! I politely explain that, while I'd be interested in doing the work, an unsupported language on an operating system that you can't buy any more does nothing to further my skills. Furthermore, since I knew the state of the code and that they'd had other people working on it, there was no garuntee that I'd be able to do what they wanted. I wrapped up by explaining that, in order to guard against the potential damage of working on something that is useless in the industry, I'd have to charge $500 an hour with a minimum of 4 weeks (160 hours) billing. Payable in advance, of course.
We negotiated for a while and I did the work, getting my check up front.
When somebody wants something and you appear to be the only one who can deliver, explain that it's simply "a business decision" and take them for everything you possibly can.
There's so little difference between politics and jihad lately...
The guy has been out of work for 5 months.
Hell, he doesn't *have* a bridge.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
I have an aunt who works in the FBI. An FBI investigation into me, big or small makes things difficult for her, as well as for myself.
It came down to a simple decisions. 30 seconds helping the moron, or 30 days or longer explaining to the feds over and over and over and over again what happened.
I'd rather just get it over with and move on. He knew he was an idiot after that.
1) Put an item in the crontab to "defix" your fix after a few weeks.
2) Blame the problem on buggy software.
3) Profit!
4) (Optional, but highly recommended) Repeat
The Right Reverend K. Reid Wightman,
Basic case handling fee: $500,00 ...
Case study: $280
Rapid deployment fee: $843,00
The look on your boss's face when she gets the bill: Priceless.
I have always stressed to friends and family that I consult for money. And that when I am off duty, I do not perform any work for free.
My stepmother once hired me at $100 an hour for doing some admin and installation work on her home computer...
I love what I do, but I do not work for free.
Mark Edwards
You nailed it. This is the right advice.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
I would have just hung up, as with any other total stranger who called me uninvited and began making bizarre demands. The bipolar pothead I work for now is bad enough without dealing with former bosses, ex-girlfriends, or my second grade PE coach. Screw 'em.
OTOH, if I was out of work, I'd probably suck it up and do it. But I would insist on a rate of pay at the outset and immediate payment at the conclusion of the job. Otherwise, my time would probably be better spent combing want ads and harassing my contacts at the employment agencies.
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
don't blink next time, buddy
don't blink.
Those who give up their power willingly deserve none.
However you might start here:
U.C.C. - ARTICLE 1- GENERAL PROVISIONShttp://members.cox.net/jwblack/rights
The 'turn the other cheek' quote is a prime example. As interpreted by the modern christian church, this statement is about subverting yourself to authority and not defending yourself against corrupt powers. However, the is another interpretation. As I learned recently, this statement, as is the case in many of Jesus' statement, is an attempt to use local customs and etiquette to equalize unequal relationship. The explanation is fascinating. In the time of Jesus if one was going to slap an inferior, one would use the back of ones hand. After the inferior person was slapped, Jesus said to turn the other cheek. This would force the assailant to use the front of the hand to attack. However, the kind of slap was an implicit acknowledgment that the person was an equal. Therefore, by turning the other cheek the victim is forcing the assailant to acknowledge equivalence if he or she attacks.
So, far from bending over and taking the attack, the words tell us to not to be subservient, but be proactive in a peaceful way. Sending a reasonable bill for services is appropriate. If you did not agree on terms before the job, theft of services would probably not be appropriate. In the future, to 'turn the other cheek', agree on terms prior to the job, and let it be her choice.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
I'm employed gainfully again now - but during the 9 months or so I was out of a job, if my former employer had asked me to come back to fix any sort of emergency, or even in general, I would have demanded double-pay for all the intervening time upfront, and then we could negotiate future price.
Good companies keep good employees. When a company hits a rough spot and it's good technical people are the first thing out the wdinow while the top executives still make enough anual salary to cover the wage-savings from all the layoffs combined, that means they just treated you like a dog. To go back without demanding respect and retribution is an insult to your humanity.
11*43+456^2
Invest in memories.
Good advice to live by.
IWARS.
People, in general, disappoint me. Politicians even more so.
She owes you a favour. You got them out of the shit big time - however, from the way you've described the incident your ex-boss is now of the impression that she can browbeat you into doing free work for them anytime she pleases. If this happens again, explain that you were willing to once out of the goodness of your heart but now they're going to have to pay you consultancy rates. Your ex-boss may well become hostile at this point, but it's important that you don't cave in. If they are desperate, they'll still hire you, and if they aren't then what the hell are they doing trying to get you to do free work for them anyway?
Oh, and I suggest you try and make the most of your owed favour.
You are right. Don't ever burn bridges. Walk over to the other side and rape and pillage until they burn the bridge. Worked for the vikings... they are still okay.
...And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me." - Martin Niemoeller (1892-1984)
... for $85/hour. If they aren't willing to pay $85 an hour, then fsck them. Time is money, and unless someone is compensating me for my time, I have better things to do, like wash my hair or pick my toes.
It amazes me, by the way, the number of imcompetant jerks in the world--both professional and personal--who want it all for free, or who expect that you should go help out for free. Friendship is friendship, but money is money--and I NEVER confuse the two.
If you feel you're being bullied -- your fax, your email, and your caller id are your friends. Lie if you have to, but never stay on the phone with a bully, do everything in writing. Written correspondence gives you a paper trail and it keeps you emotionally protected.
In your case, this lawyer would have sent you a letter stating that he was going to sue (and take everything you own). As a reply, you would have sent him back a registered letter, stating that his client still owed you X amount of dollars plus some reasonable late charges, and you would be happy to send him the code as soon as you got paid. At this point, the lawyer couldn't have done much. If he wrote back to you with some unreasonable demands, he would risk looking like a fool in front of the judge and even worst, he could even risk losing his license for breaking his professional code of conduct.
As to the original post, I have a similar advice. If you're not a good negotiator, cut the phone conversation short and fax (email is obviously not going to work if their network is down) a simple invoice for your work. It doesn't need to be elaborate, just something like "My services, to repair the LAN, are going to cost $1000 per day (minimum charge: one day). Will this work for you? " Date it and sign it and then wait for a response (and don't be bummed out if they refuse your offer, that's life).
This does not make you unnecessary, it makes you immensely valuable. You, when given a task, will make sure the task does not have to be done by a person again-- or if it does, that person will have an easy time of it, thereby saving the company time and effort; then you can be assigned another task. In effect, you can do the jobs of many.
If you think your job is to do repetitive work manually and keep your Sekrit Knowledge to yourself, you're more a liability to your employer than you are an asset.
You are not likely to run out of work to do, no matter how much of it you automate. You can always spend time improving the automation if your current task list gets too short.
Agree to do the work, make no mention of a fee. Go to the building, fix the LAN, and on your way out, trip over a cable.
Sue the billy blue jeepers out of your ex employer.
There's no way they'll have insurance for it. There's a reason companies don't request work from non-contracted non-employees. You'll get paid in a settlement, or you'll get paid 10 years from now after the company is bankrupt.
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
Everyone is screaming "SEND THEM A BILL!!". While that's appropiate in some cases, it's not always. If it's a small matter (e.g., like 15 minutes) every once in a blue moon, what's the big deal. Just help them out.
;-) is important part of building a career. Former employeers and coworkers are key in that. Getting a recommendation from a former employeer, one who'd say they'd hire you again, is a strong testmentant to your abilities and attitude; one that will mean a lot to future employeers. So building good will with people, etc. is not only nice, but smart as well.
Remember building a network (the people kind, not the OSI 7 layer kind
At the same time, there's a balance. If it's bigger than that, something requiring you to go in for a couple hours, then sure, ask for compenstation [1]. Almost anyone in the buisness world will realize you're doing more than a trival amount of work & be willing to pay you for your time.
-Bill
[1] IMPORTANT: work out the arrangement (which you will charge, roughly how long, etc.) *beforehand*. That will make it a lot easier on you both.
SlashSig Karma: Excellent (mostly affected by moderatio
Like you did. It often pays to keep connections alive, plus I'm a nice guy too. But if it went like it did for you, she wouldn't get a next time from me.
If she does call you again when she's in trouble, remind her that you already helped her once just to be nice, even though you didn't have to, and remind her that you didn't get so much as a thank-you out of it. So if she wants you to jump in and solve her problems again, she can cut a check for 8 hours consulting time at $80/hr and have it ready to hand to you when you walk in the door, otherwise you will turn around walk back out. If that's acceptable then head on over there and make some money. Otherwise tell her politely that she can call back if she changes her mind, and hang the hell up. Don't be smug, wordy or arrogant about it, just be direct.
That will settle the matter without burning any bridges, unless her ego is bigger than her business problems. Either you will be rid of her or you will make some money doing her a valuable service. Nothing wrong with that either way.
You got yourself in a bad spot now... Your ex-employer is soon going to start exploiting you, calling you for everything, and won't expect to pay you, however they for some reason will try to make you feel like you "owe" it to them... Basically, you're going to start being treated like an employee that doesn't get paid. Sound fun to you?
However, if you do demand money, I can guarantee they'll *not* pay you for as long as possible, or they'll try and give you "installments", where they make the first installment, and then never give you the rest. Knowing that you're unemployed and don't really have money for a lawyer, what do they care? Want to go to the labor board? Yeah, you'll get your check for $200 in a year or two (after they don't show up to any of the hearings). I've been burned far too many times by my ex-employer, and due to it I really don't trust anybody anymore, ESPECIALLY employers. Is this a bad thing though? No, I consider it me protecting myself.
I've moved a bit, but wouldn't choose any different, really. After Arkansas, I moved to Indiana, where went to Purdue and got a very nice job working on DSPs using C and assembly on several families of chips. Then my parents decided to get out of the rat race, and buy a business - they found a really great pet store in Florida, so they moved there, and I went along to help out (they really needed it too). Unfortunately, the tech market is rather dead here. I've contemplated going back to ASU just because I'd be able to finish up the BS in CS rather quickly - and I really enjoyed Dr. Hammerand's graphics classes - but I'd rather keep helping out the folks and finish up here instead. Now I'll need more loans than before.
Ryan Fenton
When an ex-employer calls you for something and does not use the words "please," "thank," and "you" in every third sentence, blow him off. If an ex-employer wants work out of you, demand payment at a flat rate of at least $100/hour, and get an agreement in writing first. You are nobody's bitch unless you let yourself be.
I see people in IT caving in to employers all the time, and it disgusts me. Remember, you are there because THEY NEED YOU. Never take shit that you did not earn (But learn to take it well when you have it coming). Never, EVER, let an employer act like you owe him anything. The best way to get ahead in IT is to be an arrogant prick, because if you just do your job well and act like a drone, people will have no reason to notice you and will walk all over you. You are there because you are better than anyone else they could have doing that job, never forget it.
Malcom X once said "It takes a nation of millions to hold us back." IT people need to think about that philosophy more often, because people take advantage of us, ignore us, and dump shit on us left and right, and too many geeks just sit there and put up with it.
That's what I'd do. Walk in buck naked with a Zippo in one hand and a 5 gallon Jerry can in the other and screaming that you're gonna fix their tech support problem once and for fucking all.
Offer the ex-employer two rates - the doubled rate if they pay above the table (taxes, 1099 etc)- Or - The rate discounted by a third if its paid in cash
NEVER do that. This gives the ex-employer the ability to hand you over to the IRS.
I left a job I had as an underpaid administrator one Monday after my clueless boss gripped about a missing report the morning after I had pulled a working weekend getting the Netware server upgraded to version 4 (this was several years ago).
I grabbed my briefcase and immediately left, being careful to go nowhere near my console.
Two days later, the president of the company demanded that I come back and fix the network (the average education in the company apart from myself and the accounting department was High School/GED, btw). He came very close to accusing me of sabatoging the network. I basically told him to go fuck himself.
I still talked to the vendor who had sold us most of our hardware (and wound up doing some contracting for him a month or so later), and fortunately for the "president", the vendor explained to him how making accusations like that without evidence would result in my suing the living shit out of him and the company.
1.5 months later, they were still running blind ads (no mention of the company or the pay scale, just a phone number and the position), and I was employed as a contracter at the company I now work for.
8 months or so after that, the owner of my former employer sold to a larger company. 3 months after that, the plant was closed, and everyone there laid off (including my ex-boss, who, if she hadn't been boinking the pres would have been working the deep fryer at McDonalds for a career). Seems they never could get another Admin to work for ~$22K/year (did I mention that I had been hourly, and their idea of a raise was a big 23 cents/hour?), and the system that designed their product, together with the sales database, fell apart.
"Oh my God. This is terrible. This is the end of my Presidency. I'm fucked."; ~ Donald J. Trump
> The only time you need a tax ID is if you want to
> eventually hire people.
He means a sales tax license. In some jurisdictions consulting services are subject to sales tax.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
I still keep contact with an ex-boss of mine who works in the web industry. I actually have a small part stock in the company based on work I've done, but I really do it because I like him, the company, and what they do. I do the same for other people I know, as long as I'm not super-busy, I'd rather be doing something productive than sitting on the couch with a beer on my stomach.
:-)
I'm sure it's different for a big company, but I do what I do because I enjoy it. I've been offered to do more work again recently, but this time it's for pay because I'm more busy and thus my time is valuable.
That being said, it's one thing to ask somebody you're on good terms with. It's another to "demand" assistance and then not give help. Geeze, I work expect to at least be offered dinner or a few drinks in such a circumstance.
Reminds me of back in college, when I accepted food/drinks for fixing people's computers...
Where I worked, I heard that before me they had a guy on contract. When they put the position up for a regular, he didn't make the cut and had to move on. Fine, except that he was the only one with the passwords. Getting into things again was supposed to have been fun, luckily I didn't start working there until later.
Moral: Passwords are power, make sure you have 'em all before you let somebody go...
The way markup usually works in my industry, you would markup 10% of your hourly rate as a FTE, plus 75% for benefits, vacation, etc, plus 75% for overhead and profit.
You shoot for a markup of 3.6, especially for non-repeat work. 3.2 is ok for something that has a repeat value, and 3.0 is the lowest bargaining point. A proper business can't really make money with less than 2.75, when you factor in non-productive time.
There is usually a factor of about 15-20% for profit. If someone needs to make money on top of the work you do, they are going to try and get your rate down to 80-85% of what they charge back hourly. If the function is purley overhead then it falls into an expense category and has different rules.
So, if you made $50k as an employee, you would shoot for $85/hour billable. It is also standard to have a minimum number of hours (I'd say four, or two and the clock starts when you leave your home).
As long as rates are reasonable, and they don't expose the old boss to criticism for not doing their job properly then it isn't usually an issue. If you try and back-charge for 5 months' salary, then the boss can't show that they had a net savings by eliminating your position. Fair game.
Bill the bitch. She didn't say a word so she expects a bill from you. Of course, she won't call you to send her check. Do you think people do that? She will wait and expect you to either forget or drop the bill. Then she will laugh. Not only they saved money by laying you off, now they can use your services for free... What a deal! She will get promoted and you won't have a single dollar.
-- Leeeter than leet
What college did you say you graduated from? FUCK U!?!
I worked for 14 months for a friend of the family. They guy's business wasn't going so well so he had to lay me off. (I looked at the books, they were really against the wall) I was upset at this, especially concidering I was getting married less than 2 months later, so I had more right than most people to be highly critical of him in the future.
Having said that, I still call him a friend and he does have a lot of contacts in the industry that will help me in the future. So I do a bit of help here and there, including emergencies when the server goes down or he needs some DNS records changed etc.
In my previous 5 jobs, I have maintained a good friendship with my ex-employer and benefited from it.
The point I am trying to make is that the only thing that will benefit if you refuse your ex-employer is your ego and that is only in the short term. Being nice to your ex-employer can result in better references (ie: when you are looking for work) and perhaps even recommendations to industry friends. Think long term and get the most out of the situation.
It's a simple rule, but it'll save you a lot of heartache. Simple answer is, if somebody asks you to do them a favor, and you choose to do it, expect NOTHING in return. Not gratitude, not recognition, not a job, not money. If those things turn up, great! And there's something to be said for good will. But if you don't get those things, you gave because you chose to. Maybe to remember that you're a generous person? Whatever your reasons are, they're your reasons. Corollary to this is if you're not prepared to give something in this manner (an unemployed person plying their trade for free sounds like an extemely "generous" act), then DON'T. You have a right to be compensated for your work. If this is something these people want, then, dammit, they must be willing to compensate you for it. Don't think you're "burning bridges" by asking for compensation. If you're dealing with the sort of people that expect you to work for free, you're not going to impress them by doing that. They will see you as their patsy (to use a nicer term). "Oooh I just want them to LIKE me." Does not garner respect.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
I left a job I loved a couple years ago. Great job, poorly managed organization. I could see the iceberg... The technical folks all understood, but the management team thought I was a traitor for leaving the Titanic. After the technical folks repeated requests, I helped them out with a systems issue. One of the peons noticed my login and alerted the management. They accused me of attempting to hack their systems, and called in their ultra tight-a** IT Security guy. 18 months and $7,000 in lawyer fees later, they finally droppped it. Now, I get written authorization, at least an email, before I log in to anyone's system.
My former manager called me up after I had been gone many months to ask if I would assist them with a particular issue they were having.
Of course I made sure to let them know what the hourly rate would be for the work up front.
I went in and did what I needed to do. In and out in two hours. Got paid, and everyone is still happy.
I'd go back again if they needed something else done too.
Call me a whore if you want, but I never turn down easy money.
We are peons. People walk all over us. The more you tolerate it and let it roll off your back, the better off you will be. Take it from somebody who takes too much sh8t personally rather than roll with the punches. Think of her as an inorganic heat alarm that is too sensative and sounds too often, but otherwise just a peice of machinery. It can't hurt you, only beep alot.
People like to take out their frustrations by treating somebody like sh8t. If you can fullfil that role, they may value you more. IOW, a "whipping premium", a professional scape goat.
Perhaps she was just on the rag. If the crash happened another time of month, she may have been nicer. Women are like that sometimes.
Economic times are tough. We techies are as easy to hire and fire as McD fry boys these days. That is just the way it is. Nothing we can do except beat up H-1B's or senators who passed it in dark alleys. But that is not legal.
When things improve then tell the jerks who treat you like carpet where to go and go elsewhere. It is like karma, sometimes it feels too good to vent that you don't care about losing some karma. But not today.
Good luck, I can relate.
Table-ized A.I.
If an ex-employer wants you to come back to do extra work and they aren't hiring you back, you always make it clear that you're working as an independent contractor and that they will be expected to pay for your services. That's just good business practice and this is business, not personal. The billing rate, though, that varies depending on how they treat (and treated) you. If they were decent about laying you off and are being decent now, you might bill a flat amount per day or a low hourly rate for actual time with no minimums. If they're rude and unprofessional about demanding you do work for free, the rates are $100+ per hour or part thereof, phone calls counting as working time as soon as you pick up, rates double outside normal working hours and travel time is billed at $50 per hour or part thereof each way. Your time is valuable, if not for work then for looking for work, any businessman understands about not giving away a valuable product without getting something in return. Why should you be any less a businessman than your former employer?
I worked for an internet company as a media designer in the tailspin months of the .com burst. The usual story, endlessly related here - incompetent management who didn't understand the technology they were selling, endless promises to employees about shares and bonuses, not being paid the last month I worked there, etc. I managed to pull out two computers before the offices were locked, and consider myself lucky.
A few days after the company folds, the CEO - a man I considered a personal friend - calls me on the phone, begging me to finish a presentation I was working on. He needs it to help him round up investors, he says. It will help me get paid back quicker. Again, endless promises.
I, ever the fool, complete the presentation. It costs me a few hours, a hundred dollars in a studio to do the audio. I deliver it to him on time. And then don't hear from the guy for two years.
Last week, I hear that said CEO (who is still running the same business, after a merger) is asking around for me. It turns out I might have some content on CD that a client is bugging him about. Sure enough, he leaves several calls on my voicemail. Starts off all buddy, and gets around to asking me to look for this CD.
I never return his call, which I think is more effective than any "fu-k you" I could scream down the phone. He's asking me to do more work for free, without paying me for work I've done in the past? Screw him, and screw any employer who treats their employees that way.
It's been said in previous posts, but I'll reiterate it here. It doesn't matter if your employer is your best friend. It doesn't matter if he invites you around to barbeques, trusts you to babysit his kids, or gives you weekends at his cabin. When it comes to business, he is your employer. An honest day's work deserves an honest day's pay. Good employers - and good employees - both recognise that. Anything else is an abuse of any non-business relationship you may have.
Perhaps I can help. I was a contractor for the last 5 years, and I saw so many tricks people used to get free work.
- her entire corporate LAN was down
Meaning: It's costing her company 1 day of their capital. Unemployment is costing you 5 months of your capital
- helped her save the day
Meaning: You helped her save her job, even though she mismanaged by removing a necessary support position.
- my ex-Boss calls me and demands that I help her out. Boy what attitude. She did not even bother calling me back to thank me
Meaning: She's unpleasant and not a friend. She's blaming you for the problem and you believe it's your fault.
- an opportunity to make a little money off of your old company
Meaning: It's wrong to get paid by a company?? What is the purpose of any business (including yours)? It doesn't sound like you hang out there for fun. There's nothing wrong about receiving some sort of pay for your work.
- It doesn't pay to burn bridges, especially if they need something that you can provide
Not so: Getting paid is not burning bridges. You want to be known for the quality of your work, not your charity. How about your bridges that she burned?
I could understand if the item that broke was covered under warranty by you. If they were a poor charity or she was friendly I might even do them a favor.
- she knows that I'm a kind person
Kind people don't complain about what they have decided to give away.
Successful people make a quick decision and stick with it. It would be wise to work on your bargaining.
I know you're trying to be funny, but the honest to God truth is that Pizza, Soda, and T-Shirts are all forms of compensation. They don't cost much, but I might be willing to give up a little of my expertise for a free dinner. In the original poster's case however, it sounds like the company didn't even go that far. Just a "Hello? Fix our network you jacka$$! *click*".
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
And you'll have completely burnt your bridges with the company. This sounds like a pretty severe course of action, more like seeking revenge.
<simpsons>
Lenny: Nothing beats revenge for getting back at people.
Carl: I dunno; vengeance is pretty good too.
</simpsons>
It really depends on your relationship with the company, and whether you perhaps have an interest in doing any work for them in the future.
Considering that the poster is out of work, he may be better off to learn from this experience, and hope that his inadvertent generosity leads them to call him again when they have trouble, at which point he can negotiate a good fee, or maybe get his job back, if they need him so often.
Alternatively, if he needs the money, IANAL, but I think small claims court is a better way to go, rather than seeking the services of a collection agency. A small claims court will affirm (or deny) his legal right to payment for the services, and might get the company to pay any costs associated with bringing them to court. A collection agency would charge him, and it's hard to tack that cost onto your bill to the company, if it hasn't been agreed to beforehand.
It will also, given time, turn your reputation to shit. You will not survive forever supporting a small-scale development you once did, and no-one sane will hire you to write a larger one in the future, knowing that you'll tie them in. If board members of the biggest companies in the world are questioning when MS does this, you sure as hell aren't going to get far as a single contractor that way.
OTOH, if you do a good job, and leave it well-documented and maintainable, then (a) you'll have a much more pleasant time if you're the guy doing that maintenance a year later, and (b) you're going to develop a reputation as someone who does a good job, which is about the most valuable thing you can possibly have in the contracting business.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
I left my last job all on my own. I discussed the issues we were having for a week or so with our 4th IT director in 2 years before I gave up and quit. I sent my resignation to the entire IT department, from top to bottom detailing exactly why the situation was so bad and miserable to work in. The thing is, my friends are still there plugging away. They are miserable for the most part, but they have not found the will to simply walk away. Myself, when I start becoming physically ill due to stress born of absolute insanity with internal policy, I leave. I built the network, I know the network inside and out. To this day, 9 months later I still know more about that network than anyone else there. I transferred all of my remotely important files to a new share for the department, detailing most of what has ever been documented concerning the infrastructure. I did what I could, took all I could take, then I bailed in a very vocal manner. The thing is, the people left are my friends. I know the hell they work in, I know the insanity they contend with, and I honestly feel for them. They have had to work under the threat of a bubious outsourcing deal several times. They have seen an accountant promoted to IT director, they have time and time again recieved a big virtual bitch slap in the face. So I feel for them, and when they ask for help I am very inclined to help them out if I can which is most of the time. The last issue I fixed was a DNS problem. Since I built the DNS system, I knew the solution easily and made it a quick fix. I have been asked to write new policy for them as well, which I am declining. It is not my job to make my friends look good, enough is enough. I have told them this too and they have understood. I have no ill will towards my former employer, but at the same time I have no desire to see them prosper. My hope is honestly that my friends get out one way or the other, no one is happy there. After that, I do not care if the place stays in business or not. I could do great harm to the network if I wished, but I have decided to offer moral support only for my friends left behind. Technical issues will have to be dealt with on their own from now on. They are mostly capable too, so this should not be a huge challenge for them.
If you feel like you have to give everyone what they ask for (and if so, you're hardly alone), work on a simple, polite, unwavering response. Try "I'm sorry, I can't."
You'll often get people who try to argue it. Do not fall into their trap. It's the slippery slope to doing something you don't want to do.
"I'm sorry, I can't."
"Why not?" -or-
"But we're in trouble" -or-
"Can you just come in for an hour?"
If you say anything other than "I'm sorry, I can't", repeatedly and firmly, you're going down the slippery slope to doing something you don't want. Your ex-boss clearly has the balls to ask you for pro bono work, so she also probably will try to wear you down by arguing.
"But we're in trouble."
"I'm sorry, I can't."
"You were the one who set up the server!"
"I'm sorry, I can't."
"We have the report due tomorrow!"
"I'm sorry, I can't. I really have to go now. Good-bye. [click]"
Of course, feel free to hang up even earlier. Don't be rude, but don't allow the rudeness of others to trample on you.
So helping out the poor = kharmically the same as helping out your old employer.. (you know -- the guys who used to pay you... then probably dropped you on your ass in order to save costs) for free?
There are a lot of good deeds to be done in this wicked wicked world... that's not one of them.
Unless there are deep bonds of friendship in place, if a former employer needs my help, I'm going to charge them for it. And.. I'm going to charge them a *lot* more for it then I would have made if I was still working there. That isn't mean, cruel, or greedy. It just makes sense.
Evolution: love it or leave it
There was an engineer who had an exceptional gift for fixing all things mechanical. After serving his company loyally for over 30 years, he happily retired. Several years later the company contacted him regarding a seemingly impossible problem they were having with one of their multi-million dollar machines.
They had tried everything and everyone else to get the machine fixed, but to no avail. In desperation, they called on the retired engineer who had solved so many of their problems in the past.
The engineer reluctantly took the challenge. He spent a day studying the huge machine. At the end of the day, he marked a small "x" in chalk on a particular component of the machine and proudly stated, "This is where your problem is".
The part was replaced and the machine worked perfectly again. The company received a bill for $50,000 from the engineer for his service.
They demanded an itemised accounting of his charges. The engineer responded briefly
One chalk mark $1
Knowing where to put it $49,999
It was paid in full and the engineer retired again in peace.
I am not certain by any means, however if the people demanding the source code for a flash web site are claiming that they both have a developer who "knows flash" and that they the company believe the existing product is crap, then you should explain that it does not matter how much their current developer "knows flash" the source is not going to help.
They would be better served by their developer looking at the existing output, learning where changes need to be made, and building his or her own version of the website. I am reasonably sure that if you started looking through the source code today, without comments, it would be faster to start from scratch.
I personally think this is true even for self documenting code, as so far as I know, even the best self documented code does not show you what a gui output will look like. It may show you the generic look of a window, but if the content of that window is dynamic, by definition it will change. Then again, I could be wrong.
-Rusty
You never know...
I'm not sure what the terms of your separation from your old employer are, but here are a couple of random thoughts.
First, if they are like most companies, they are in it for the money. Help them. Yes. But for a consulting fee. If they were willing to pay you while you were there, they should be willing to pay you now.
Many companies have you sign agreements that you can't work for competitors, etc
Finally - in the future, you might also want to creating a formal agreement so they can't come back and sue your butt if something goes wrong.
Remember, this is a business relationship.
--- have you healed your church website?
I was laid off from my old employer and I had lots of expense vouchers still unpaid. They announced to me that my last day would be March 25th. I knew the layoff was coming for a while before it was announced so it wasnt a shock to me. I always document all the work I do and put it all together into a binder which I gave my replacement guy. ( The company was shutting down and it was cheaper to get a once a week consultant than pay me a full salary for the next 4 weeks )
.. I just dont want to be stuck in a situation where I do work and dont get the money
They wanted me to change their domain name information to their new sub company which they had purchased and wanted the speedy service from Verisign which costs $29 per domain. They asked me to expense this as well. Now This is the last week Im working there and I refused to expense it since (a) I hadnt been re-imbursed yet and (b) The new guy they hired should be the one who does it.
But they kept calling me over and over again to have me migrate their domains to the new sub company even after they laid me off. Now this is the irony. I am not the Administrative contact on the domain, so the other 2 people on the list could have done it as well. But for some reason they chose to pester me to do upto 5 weeks after they laid me off.
2 weeks ago one of my old bosses contacted me on ICQ and asked me to do some web work for their new company. So far I havent said yes or no
dvNuLL
If this happened to me, I would agree to do the job at consultancy rates. In other words, I'd make it really expensive, and charge by the hour. Then, I would take a long time to get the job done, on purpose. In other words, I'd figure out what the problem is, then play video games for a few days or so, and then, voila, the network is working again! They'll be so greatful to have it working again that I'd mention the possibility of servicing them once a month for a (somewhat) lower rate (like two cents lower), to prevent future catastrophies. Oh yeah, and I'd demand a free case of Negra Modelo.
Exactly. The terminology differs place to place. Here in New Mexico, I had to sign up for a "CRS number" (Combined Reporting System) to report gross receipts tax--even though I'm selling a service.
I just recently had something very similar happen to me. I had created a simple web site for somebody last spring, and included instructions to modify the files (he didn't want to pay me to update the site, but wanted me to teach him how to do it). I provided him with some basic ftp instructions, and told him to not modify parts between the symbols (php pages). Using proper HTML was up to him.
A few months later his host upgraded the server his site was on. I modified the templates for him at no charge - no need to burn bridges, and it was fairly easy for me to fix.
A few months after that, he tried updating the site and botched it - he did not download the files first, but instead used copies on his local machine already (downloaded before the server was upgraded). Once he started getting php error messages, he contacted me, accusing me of giving him bad instructions (actually, he said I "wrote the site incorrectly") and I need to fix it right away. Very demanding, very accusative, and unwilling to answer any questions. After a few messages full of him sidestepping my questions (presumably because he did not want to admit he didn't follow the instructions), I was able to figure out what happened, and told him that since he did not follow the instructions it was not my fault.
I told him I'd only charge for a half hour of work to fix it. I made the price low because I wasn't in need of the money - it was meant to get the point across that this work is above and beyond the original deal. The total cost to him would have been twenty-three dollars and fifty cents. He kept fighting me and insisting that he is not a moron. (his justification? "I'm the head of a marketing department." Oh, I'm sorry, you couldn't be a moron, then!)
After a week, I told him I would fix it on the condition that he never contact me again. I told him there was clearly nothing I could do to make him a satisfied customer short of doing everything for free. I told him I'd gladly lose twenty-three dollars just to never have to deal with him again. I told him I hoped the time he spent fighting me was worth no more than twenty-three dollars.
I don't regret burning that bridge. If the other party has no interest in reimbursing you for your work, then you're not really even buring a bridge - you're getting rid of excess baggage.
I really hate signatures, but go to my website.
What a sucker. Let me get this straight... The ex-boss who laid you off calls you up at your new place of employment and DEMANDS you help her? And you comply, like a trained dog? And only complain about not getting a THANK YOU? Man. You need some serious assertiveness training.
You have zero obligations to help out Ms. Demanding. Your relationship was a business contract between employer and employed. That contract was ended. Send her the bill, and make it juicy for emergency services rendered.
Can't walk through life with other people's boot prints on your back.
Derek
who on earth uses yyyymmdd other than nerds like us? i like my mmddyy(yy), but must bashfully admit that the euro's _do_ have a point...day-month-year is a bit more logical.
Ferrari and other exotic car rentals in New York
A similar thing happened to me - my ex employer had their mail relay and net gateway running on a SPARC Ultra 5 r00ted (Solaris 2.6, NO PATCHES!!! - what did they expect??) Basically they employ staff to a salary, not a standard. (I wasnt even working in IT at that place, I was teaching media production! - hey times were hard you do what you can) I was asked if I could fix it - I happened to know that they were planning on replacing the Solaris box with an Exchange server (which even they could manage) however they didnt have anyone that knew how to set it up, and I was working for another company.
:o)
I agreed to do a days consultancy for them where I built their new mail server. I left after the day, with their SPARC Ultra 5 which was the deal I negotiated.
Here's my take:
:
,etc. ) are included!
You probably would have done better to have stated , up front, your hourly rate and expenses. If you don't know how much your time is worth, break down your old salary to an hourly rate and double it.
This should cover the amount that you need to cover taxes, medical insurance ( assuming you had that at before you were laid off ) etc.
If the client ( that's right - client - they did lay you off and you no longer work for them as an employee ) accepts this hourly rate , then you go onsite. If you want to charge for travel time, go ahead.
Make sure that you provide them with a written statement of your hourly rate and the scope of work that you will perform. Something as simple as
Hourly rate = 50.00 (USD) (minimum charge 2 hours )
Travel = 1 hour of billable time
Scope of work: Troubleshooting networks. Toilets will not be cleaned, nor dry cleaning delivered.
Don't go for the daily rate thing on a one off assignment like this. You will end up sorely abused!
Before you leave the client site, have the responsible party sign a time sheet or invoice. Provide them with a copy, but retain one, with their signature, for yourself.
If you do go with an invoice instead of a time sheet, make sure all charges (travel, cell phone
Once you've received payment, take out the necessary amount for taxes, etc, and stick it in a bank account. Or be bold, and just spend all of it. The downside of the latter plan is that you might get busted by the IRS ( I knew someone who did. Long story..build a campfire some night and I'll tell it )
I'm not going to say you were stupid for doing the work, but chalk it up as a lesson learned and remember next time: Never do free work for a former employer unless they've been paying your bills, trying to find you a new job, taking your kids to soccer practice, etc. Once you're a former employee, you don't have an obligation to do pro bono work for your former employer.
Even if they call and say "This is something you screwed up while you were our employee. Fix it for free or else", you don't work for free. Once the employer/employee relationship is over, it's over.
And besides, the above scenario ( which does happen ) is commonly referred to as extortion in the legal world.
Remember: There is a price for doing business. If they can't pay you that price, then they can't afford to pay anyone else, and probably shouldn't be in business.
Xibalba: My hell. Your hell. Our hell!
Always remember, you are not an employee, you are not an associate, you are not a representative. You are a RESOURCE. They have an entire department allocated to dealing with those pesky HUMAN RESOURCES, just as they have an entire department allocated to those pesky IT resources.
They don't expect their computing resources to work without care, feeding, maintenance, and electricity, so why do you think they expect human resources to work without renumeration?
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
On a Friday they gave me a no money review (this was a few months after 9-11) and told me I was "the most important cog in operations" on Tuesday they said they no longer needed a Sys Admin and that my office was being cleaned out as we spoke.
I left. My laptop had been set up to erase the hard drive on Friday morning at 09:15 UNLESS I specifically stopped it from doing so. (This was a known thing and something I warned them about before I left.)
On Monday they called me. Something is wrong with your old laptop.
I told them 1500USD an hour (which was ludicris of course) and lunch everyday I was there.
They didn't call back.
4 out of seven servers went down the next week.
The next monday they did.
I told them I was unavailable.
This
Business as usual
When she called you no saturday, she hired you back. Be very gracious about getting your job back. Before you see her, tell all the old coworkers that she hired you back when she called you on saturday. Go back in, and THANK her for calling you Saturday and getting your job back.
again, be very very gracious
Kill her with kindness. Best case: you get your job back. Worst case: you make her look like the ass she is and you get a day of fun.
But they were also parties to fraud as well...
Only if they go along with the proposition. If you just make the offer they could turn you in with no risk to themselves.
Well, to quote Mark 7:9-13 is this:
... only time, tradition, and a well constructed meme prevent grown-people from stepping back from the fiction.
9And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[1] your own traditions! 10For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,'[2] and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'[3] 11But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God), 12then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. 13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."
The important part is bold. It says very clearly that Moses instructed, Honour your Father and Mother - those who do not, who "curses their father and mother" must be put to death.
All this hulla-ballo about "not understanding", "making something up", "sprinkling with truth", "social security and your kids", "starve when they're too old to work" and all your other drivel is just that shite.
The FACT is the passage I mentioned is there -- in your Bible -- which you fools take as The Word Of God (tm)(c).
It is very funny that you would try and rationalize the passage with some mess about "old age security". In fact, the bible is RIDDLED with stern threats (...hmm, fear, the great controller) - the bible was a tool.. as is religion of all stripes. As for "Subtle Nuance careing about the truth"; the TRUTH is there is no God, Jesus was crucified with 200 others who claimed to be Gods on earth, and the bible is a collection of fiction, assembled through time to serve the priests who sought to control the masses... the TRUTH is people who have Faith (tm)(c) like yourself need to start thinking about why you believe in fairy tales - like your children believe in santa-claus, you believe in %religon%
Take your head out of your ass pal, religion -- every one of them -- is a put on, and your incapable of seeing reality.
Rule #1. It's Business.
Rule #2. Pay me.
Rule #3. It was never personal.
While I freely admit I don't run my life off these rules I do repeatedly remind myself of them anyway.
I've helped a previous employer out a couple weeks after I was laid off. The prior-president of the company had moved to another city and in doing so his HD failed. I helped him install windows over the phone. Probably cost me a couple of dollars in longdistance.
On the other hand, 6-8 months after working for my new company I received a call and was asked if I could do some work for them through the company I was working for now. (The first was a distribution company, the second a consulting company). So, the company I worked for got the work, and I got paid to help a previous employer.
A couple years later the guy who was running the IT department after I left had lost his job and moved to another company, he gave my name to a consultant looking for a new employee to pickup some extra work he had available. I got the job and have been happier working for this company than previous. (amusingly doing pretty much the same work, but thats another story).
Did it help being a nice guy? Sure. Did it make up for the couple of dollars I spent on a long distance call, sure.
Would it have paid to be a really nice guy and do the work for them on the side when I was working for the consulting company... no. could have cost me my job and would not have been worth the pay.
If a previous employer calls you up and wants you to do some work for them do it, and charge them consulting rates to do it. If they won't pay then they don't actually want you to help them.
If they are only offering it to you because it would cost them less (and not because you can do it in less time because you know the system) then don't take it. It probably isn't in your interest. (10% less is one thing... 75% less is another...)
Dang, this is exactly what happened to me last March when my former employer CEO called me up and asked that I do a little work for him in regards to the project that I had worked on formerly.
I was working for Maximum Charisma Studios in Denver Colorado. They released a product in 2001 that was poop and the company went chapter 7, fired all employees on the last week of January of 2001. Everyone was fired with dignity and the company went down with minimal looting and not a lot of hostility.
The company was trying to sell it's online multiplayer game product design and code to another company and so the product was still online and in collocation. Well, there was a bug that had been plaguing us that had not been fixed before everyone was fired.
Hey, this is going to turn into a Microsoft bashing story too! Cool.
The problem was that the software clients that ran on a bunch of Windows 2000 Servers would have problems forwarding or processing UDP packets after about 30 days. This was consistent on all of the servers. 30 days and the UDP would stop, the ports would get held hostage, and absolutely nothing would fix the problem beyond the typical Windows fix of rebooting.
30 days rolled around and the systems stopped working. They tried to reboot them, but there was a special procedure to getting it all to work, plus a very key system had died with a failed RAID controller, which made things worse. So, they called me and ask me to do the work.
There is a quote that I remember right here from Slashdot. It had to do with work/employee related stuff.
"Never consult for free."
I heard about the problem that they had, negotiated what exactly needed to be done, and said that I would do the work for $1,000.00 flat, and could have everything online within 48 hours. We did it respectfully and nobody lost their composure over the phone while I worked this deal out.
It went pretty good, I got my $1K cheque and it got cashed. I did the work and everything was online again. If they sold the product off or not, I don't recall.
The point is that I made my former employer understand that it did not pay my bills to work for free, and that if it was in our mutual interest to do business then we could, for a price which we agreed upon. Everyone was happy when we were done.
Now, if the former employer had been hostile from the start, I question if I would have taken the project on at all. And if I had, I would have made a written contract be signed prior to any work being done. And in the case of financial instability and the possibility of bankruptcy on their part and me not being able to collect on the work done, I would have required a deal that put the funds into special holding by a third party or something similar.
The problem is that the unhappy employer is probably going to do something bad to you. More is broken than they tell you and they are going to blame the broken on you and ask that you fix it for free or they will sue. They are going to try to make you feel guilty into helping them, they are going to do whatever it takes to get some work done by you for free.
Don't deal with bitter former employers or employees unless you absolutely have to, you are going to profit from it, and you make sure that it is going to turn out exactly how you think it will.
and tell him/her the person that called you can't do the job and is calling you for help.
Tell him/her you want her job, and can do it better(which is obvious since she called you).
It sounds like your being an ass, but lets look at it:
She is hurting the company by not knowing what she is doing, and by having an attitude. So if you are kind, shouldn't you imform the people who need the help that they are in trouble?
2)You need work,(I presume). She is calling you, demanding you take your time, and fix a screw up she is in. She is not the kind of employee that does a company any good.
3) she is hostile towards you. As a human being, you do not need to tolerate that, and since your kind, shouldn't you do your best to see that she doesn't treat other emplyees(or ex) that way?
Run your carrer like a business, because know one else out there has your interest, if they did, would you be un-employed?
If you don't want to do that, next time charge 250 dollars an hour. with a minimum hours of twice what you think it will take. I'm serious, if she needs you, you'll get it. espcially if you are saving her ass. It's not like it will come out of her money, just her budget.
As a human being, you do not need to take that kind of crap.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I second this. If you've been out of work for some time, and I sorta think you have by the sounds of it, a new job is going to be worth more to you then any amount you can screw out of a former employer.
If you piss off your old boss, guess what they are going to say when a prospective employer calls up. The company might have a policy of not giving references, but most people will answer specific questions over the phone. Your old boss may even know some one from the new company.
In my final year of University I tutored some first and second year CS labs. I little while ago I received and email from some one else who also tutored that year. The company he was now working for was hiring, and one of the applicants studied at our old University and was in the years we tutored. Did I, or any of the our other friends, know and remember this person? No one did, but a bad comment at that stage would have lost him the job?
Sounds unfair? Sure it is, but if your hiring some one, specialy straight out of University, you have very little to go on. You may have 10 (or 100) people with about the same skills sets, about the same skill level, and all willing to take the job at the price you want. If you know there is a slight risk in hiring person #2, of course you'll hire some one else.
The moral of this somewhat OT story? Don't burn bridges. Social networks can help you find jobs, but they can also loose you jobs, and you will never know about it.
Democracy isn't about no one telling you what to do. It's about everyone telling you what to do.
Hello again, I disagree with your post here. That was the best TNG episode I've seen. Picard's face at the end when playing Frere Jacques summed up that it would simply be the start of his mourning period. Can you remember when Picard was converted into a borg? His guilt spread across multiple episodes, resulting in him getting drunk and having a fight with his brother on Earth in the mud.
Personally I'd find it incredibly difficult to fit something good into just 1 hour, actually minus ads it's probably just 40 mins. So I'll ask you this - what scene(s) would you have cut from Frere Jacques episode to extend Picard's fluteplaying at the end? Personally, I'm happy that the scriptwriters left it to the imagination.
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
"Okay people, one compartmentalised episode bagged and tagged, no discontinuities added to the timeline, so forget about it. Now, we have 20 more episodes to write."
I must admit, if Picard suddenly became good with children his authoritarian presence would have been eroded, which would be a shame as it would devalue all subsequent episodes. So it's a good thing they buried this new trait in the future. If he suddenly became good with kids/dogs just like Oprah (and every other boring American running after ratings), TNG might have ended up like the current Enterprise series, having to resort to time travel trickery to create any sort of episode that wouldn't create massive contradictions in the future. Star Trek is supposed to be groundbreaking, but in Enterprise there aren't any gay/transvestite people, I'd imagine Majel Roddenberry is going to sue their asses off for not following what Gene Roddenberry intended.
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?