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Gnutella2 Specs - Part 1
Mr Fodder writes "The first part of the Gnutella2 specs are finally up." Our previous Gnutella2 story has a little more information.
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I think that packets related to pr0n should get a higher priority on the network. Has that been addressed in this version?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Shareza just making their own protocol and stealing Gnutella's name for it?
By "monitoring" requests in limewire or by putting in ambiguous search terms, I estimate that well, well, well over 99% of files available through gnutella-based p2p services are copyrighted.
Oh yes, we all have heard the usual arguments. Technology doesn't break the law, people do. Aka, the Pontius Pilate / Eichmann defense.
Shareaza is the only gnutella client that even uses this '2.0' protocol so im more inclined to say that its not really a new gnutella protocol but more or less an extension of the current gnutella client (apparently they didnt like the rate @ which gnutella was progressing)..
I'm waiting for a prequel.
Yet again I will be able to get "backup" copies of all the music and videos I soon plan to buy!
The first part of the Gnutella2 specs are finally up.
Go go Slashdot....
Is this official, by the original Gnutella developers? (who were winamp related, right?)
Michael Stokes (Who also makes Shareaza)
Not really surprising, tho...
Looks like an eminem kiddie had mod points today haha.
[snip]
Actually, what I personally find more frustrating is that when you actually do find what you want, the download fails because either the host drops offline or refuses to accept the connection. Another little irritant is the large number of files out there that are deliberately misnamed so that when you download and open them, you find yourself dropped into someone's personal porn site, regardless of what you're looking for. I used to look for cool stuff like the blooper videos and whatnot, but I got one to many that was deceptively named. Not worth the effort, really...I uninstalled the damn thing and quit trying.
Be excellent to each other. And... PARTY ON, DUDES!
Exactly, it may technically work fine but as far as people finding non-coporate media freely, well it ain't cuttin the mustard.
Aka, the Pontius Pilate / Eichmann defense.
Hey, it's better than the chewbacca defense...
Michael Stokes: Ladies and Gentlemen of this deposed jury, a major record label's attorney would certainly want you to believe Gnutella was written and used purely to transfer copyrighted data, and he makes a good case. Hell, I almost felt pity myself. But Ladies and Gentlemen of this deposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider.
*Walks up to a chart*
Michael Stokes: Ladies and Gentlemen, (Pulls down picture of Chewbacca) this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wooky from the planet Kishic, but Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it. That does not make sense.
Why would a Wooky, an eight-foot-tall Wooky, want to live on Endor with a bunch of two-foot-tall Ewoks. That does not make sense. But more important, you have to ask yourself "What does this have to do with this case?"
*Jury stares in silence*
Michael Stokes: Nothing. Ladies and Gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case. It does not make sense. Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending a major opensource movement and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca. Does that make sense? Ladies and Gentlemen I'm am not making any sense. None of this makes sense. And so you have to remember when you're in that jury room deliberating and conjugating the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No. Ladies and Gentlemen of this deposed jury it does not make sense. If Chewbacca lives on Endor you must acquit. The defense rests.
Why is this rated +5 Insightful? It is extremely redundant and most importantly off topic. We have heard this argument many times before, but in this instance it doesnt even relate to the topic of the article. Sheesh!
Is there a feedback rating in the Gnutella protocol? Wouldn't it be nice to mark a file+sharer -1, Fake. The more "-" the file gets, the lower it is in the result list. And the sharer should be punished, although I don't know how.
J.
Granted, this is off of the FastTrack network, but the information is still valid.
1. Dungeon Siege Demo
2. Day of Defeat Patch (Halflife Mod)
3. Alias Season 2 episode 1
Note that two of these are definitely freely distributable. The third one is not available anywhere else - and I have yet to hear of a big* hubbub concerning TV shows.
*there is a small hubbub, but nobody REALLY seems to care - I'll let you speculate as to why that is
Besonic is the online record-label replacement.
BeSonic no more RIAA
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
OpenOffice recently asked the P2P community to help out in distributing it's massive install file over their networks.
5 PC RWCT7Y.XKR2LGSL2K3DR4CTE5H5PDZGQCZOKN2NJWOOQHQ&dn= OOo_1.0.1_Win32Intel_install.zip
It's now on Gnutella2.
magnet:?xt=urn:bitprint:S5Q756FJ7326XXDGA7KZBF2
I get 15 sources in seconds. (G2 required - good luck on G1)
It's really closer to the jump between HTML and XML. The new specification is more extensible, and has more optimizations than Gnutella. It's essentially the trends in Gnutella today taken to somewhat of a logical conclusion. Plus, instead of just lumping in Gnutella developments like hashing files, it uses it in the base design of the network. And at the same time G2 hubs and leafs can play nicely with G1 peers.
So, to answer your question, for the moment it's more of a complement to Gnutella than a replacement. However, as time goes on and more clients adopt the new protocol, it may eventually replace it. Your original question was a bit to inherently harsh.
I'd be interested in a project like this IF it didn't require or recommend that you share or open up your system to riaa music videos or kiddie porn or warez. I am skeptical that at some time the goons are gonna be all over this and start homeland security busting people. As soon as they have like a trapdoor or whatever, or the technical ability and incentive to do so, I imagine it will happen. As in the mother of all hacks. Our society is rapidly closing in on "closing in". The tech and resources available to big corporations and the politics they control and the fascists is becoming overwhelming. Homeland security law when it gets signed is a carte blanche for widespread data mining and list making effort, and given how previous statist regimes act, this new one will be horrible. And given their track record for lying, planting evidence, etc, other assorted goodies, well, I sorta don't trust any of this stuff-not yet anyway. Every single day professional sysadmins get hacked, guys who's profession is to keep up on security and they still fail, I am under no illusions that I am 'better"at that then those fellows, I am not. And most people on these networks are *not* as well, no matter whatever illusions of elitness they are under. And I have no desire to share that which is not mine to share lawfully, or that I find repugnant and immoral. I understand the differences between anonymous freenet and an open directory/share of your mp3's whatnot, I know they are similar but different, and the alleged cryptography etc, just something like this is needed and cool, but the applications so far are 90% abusive by the users(I am rough guesstimating here of course), near as I can tell. I wish there was an "honest and ethical "way" to go about this, but so far not seeing it. Only private subscription networks that aren't anonymous and have accountability attached to them are trustworthy, the rest of them can have half the users being pederasts or pervos or cops or assorted music/movies goons, and they have already stated over and over agaqin that they ARE going to issue bogus files, trojans, traces, whatever snoopy and cracky stuff is at their disposal, so my thinking is-it ain't worth it. Not this way anyway, some other venue I'll give a *perhaps* if it presents itself.
The nice thing about using P2P services to distribute these types of files, is that instead of the bandwidth available for a file decreasing linearly, it actually increases exponentially.
As a developer of open-source software for the OPEN Gnutella protocol, I find publishing of THE Gnutella2 spec by ONE development team laughable. The spec may be revealing about how the latest Shareaza client works, but to say it describes Gnutella2 is NOT true. The Shareaza guys simply use Gnutella to boostrap their new 'Shareaza1' network, they haven't redefined the Gnutella protocol.
The truth is that Gnutella2 is on the way, but not from Shareaza. Gnutella2 is a loose connection of various enhancements to the Gnutella network that have been implemented over the last year or so by SEVERAL COOPERATING Gnutella vendors. The latest enhancement is GUESS, which was introduced before Shareaza's new searching methodology and seems to be Shareaza's inspiration.
The Shareaza people continue to attempt to preempt Gnutella as THEIR protocol, when in fact they are pretty much branching off from the network. Shareaza should feel free to leave the OPEN Gnutella network, but please don't try to steal a name that belongs to the users and developers of Gnutella.
smd4985
.. Here's the URL for the page on Gnutella 2 gnutella://bitprint:SZEVSITNQSWDTP5ZWBMQECIXMGZNKE 6S.WZVZRBAWW6AEC7OW6MZ66IUW5TLF2SZVCYPTBLA/gnutell a2_search.htm/
Just copy and paste into Shareaza to download the page. Neat, eh?
In the United States (at least), everything made since 1923 was, has been, and still are copyrighted, even if they were never registered with the copyright office. So everything you see on a peer-to-peer network is indeed copyrighted.
A more approriate question (as some of the responders have answered) is if anyone has used a peer to peer network for a legitamite purpose. The problem here is that the issues are quite grey. If I have Game X, or Game System version 1.1 can I download copies of the games/BIOS/etc. online for use with emulators/replacements for broken discs/etc.? If an online broadcaster, paying royalty fees, uses ABAcast or Peercast to distribute their works, do I in turn have to pay royalty fees since I am rebroadcasting them?
Unfortunately, there is a major gap between what people think they can do under copyright law and what they actually can do. While I have not extensively researched the above (IANAL), technically, all the above commonly considered legitamite things are *illegal* unless you have worked some deal out to repay the copyright holders.
The problem you really should be asking is if anyone uses P2P networks to delibrately distribute their copyrighted works, either as a primary or secondary channel. A few minor bands likely do. The next question is if you'll ever find them on Slashdot. And I do not know the answer for that.
Note I personally have *never* used Napster, Gnutella, Kazza, or any of the other networks, mainly because being caught doing so may jepordize my ability to be hired in certain areas. I used to be one of those nasty college network administrators trying to keep your P2P usage down because it overloading our bandwidth, and we could not order a significantly bigger pipe because our local phone switch could not handle it. Feel free to flame me for my ignorance as you will.
ISO's for BSD.. ( though speed suked and never finished )
Replacement songs for scratched / broke CDS..
Copies of songs for work that i own ( disk at home )..
HTML texts ( ala guntenburg )..
Clipart for a presentation.. ( should be legal anyway )
---- Booth was a patriot ----
There are several steps in the right direction, but the new design still doesn't do enough to address impact on the network. I work at a public sector ISP and we try like heck not to "censor" traffic based on port numbers, but lately we have had to kill off several PtP applications because they were hosing links and firewalls. Since much of the next-to-last-mile is using flow-based methods to make the Internet fair, not to mention asymetrical NAT, any PtP structure needs to put a higher priority on limiting the number of "flows" or "conversations" (hostA:portA hostB:portB).
This *does* include UDP as many routers/firewalls/packet shapers do perform flow-based rules on UDP conversations as well.
We've seen a relatively small link full of Bubster traffic bring a medium-end firewall to it's knees
by causing far too many conversation setup/teardowns. GnuTella should try to construct a network of long-lived inter-hub connections such that a query is never sent over a *new* connection more than a a few hundred times. Fortunately the new design is at least progress.
At LimeWire we are definitely trying to extend Gnutella's uses. One project we are working hard on is making it easy to build private networks. Currently Gnutella is a public network, but people may want to form private groups to share private material.
A 'real world' example: a Art History department may want to share digital photos of art with faculty and students but not have to maintain a dedicated server. They can utilize the power of p2p if they could easily form a private network, one that would leverage the CPU and bandwidth of all participating users.
Currently it is hard to *only* connect certain nodes or only *allow* certain nodes to connect. We are working on a complete solution at LimeWire. The first iteration will allow a tech admin to easily set up a private network. The second iteration should incorporate privacy and security to keep out unwanted guests (supported by a username / password infrastructure).
Obviously, private secure networks can be utilized by criminals and terrorists to exchange potentially illegal information. Nevertheless, the same can be done with PGP, secure telephones, etc. already. There is a lot of truth in the statement that p2p networks are defined by the users, not the developers.
smd4985
I've been playing around with the limewire source for ahwile, it is well documented and there is no spyware in the open source version. I love how people complain about Limewire and spyware, when it is open source. Anyone can take the gpled limewire source and package it without spyware without having to reverse engineer it like closed source KaZaa.
How about already here? And specifications open and visible?
Visit the GDF. You'll find info on various components of Gnutella2 - Ultrapeers, Remote Queueing, HUGE, Meta-Data Support, and GUESS. Unlike Shareaza's features, all these enhancements were cooperatively developed and open upon introduction. Shareaza has only published the IDEOLOGY behind their protocol, it is still not open - the lack of detailed specifications is startling.
smd4985
Then lets hear you? I haven't seen any replies in the GDF from Limewire on the spec yet. You find that specs being released by Shareaza are laughable, but what about when Limewire proposes their GUESS proposal? Or "CHORD" proposal? Didn't "one development team" work on those? Sure, you released it before actually implamenting it, but still... the rest of the GDF just questioned about it, you were really the only development team. People don't say "Gnutella's GUESS proposal" they say "Limewire's GUESS proposal".
Can Limewire stop saying that? Which is totally and utterly untrue?!! Mike was working on G2 long before you sent him your spec on GUESS. He told you in a private e-mail that he was working on it before hand, and that he would probably release his with GUESS.
And the specs released today are **VERY DIFFERENT** from your damn GUESS proposal.
Oh, and what about your Remote Queueing feature? Shareaza founded that, and it's included in Limewire. Mike wants to cooperate, but your not giving him a chance.
"Shareaza People"? There is only one developer for Shareaza, Mike. Shareaza supports G1 and G2, it supports "Gnutella".
We all remember how OS/2 pushed Windows 3.11 from the market because of its superior interface and memory management.
Daddy!!1 Daddy!!1 That man sir is way high up on that horse!1
Dont get me wrong its not to help the RIAA or anything. I just would like a peer network where you could exchange only free uncopyrighed stuff. Today such things drown in britney Spears and porno and goes unoticed. A browsable peer network filled with only free stuff would lift it up and give legitimacy to peer networks. Today people trying to distribute free or new music etc. dissapears totally from the surface under a big pile of copyrighted crap. Pirating is actually in essence hurting unsigned and struggling musicians.
Maybe im the only one in the whole world who doesnt like to pirate, i dunno.
HTTP/1.1 400
Looks like that Shareaza guy will have a hard time finding support for his new protocol by other developers...
Since most of the people using Gnutella seem to be people trading music and warez, I'd really like to have a seperate Gnutella network for things like distribution ISOs, rpms, debs, tar.gz, etc.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
Creative Commons is an effort to develop technical standards which will allow various flavors of "free" content to be identified.
The file sharing networks themselves are agnostic on the matter of how the owner of a work intends for it to be distributed. The software justs see files and shares them, it can't tell the difference.
Pr0n priority levels have been a concern of many P2P network users for some time. While the collection of protocol updates in gnutella2 has many general performance enhancements, it does (rather glaringly) lack any improvements specifically addressing the pr0n issue. A good deal of user upset has been produced by this -- however, fortunately much of the furor is undeserved.
Improvements to improve your pr0n viewing experience are well underway in many *clients*, rather than in the protocol itself -- protocol changes would produce compatibility issues. A number of proposed improvements include changes to the routing system to use dictionary-based priority changing. Query and result packets containing entries with phrases such as "tits", "ass", or "CowboyNeal nude" will be given an elevated priority in sending, improving latency for those users who really need pr0n. There has been some debate over whether this is entirely appropriate -- it reduces fairness -- but when it comes right now to it, pr0n-obtaining is a task with hard realtime constraints. The Gnutella developers and GDF members recognize that the goal of P2P software should be to best serve the community as a whole -- and so some unfairness will be allowed.
Preliminary dictionaries for the new routing prioritization may be downloaded from various of the GDF developers -- links have been posted in relevant discussion on the GDF board. The proposed dictionary format allows granting of variable priority -- "tits" matching a packet might increase the routing class by 1, but "teen lesbian slut" would increase it by 3, giving it priority over merely "tits" packets.
There is some concern over abuse -- that users hungry for low latency may simply include terms like these in their filenames. Indeed, a few users have already begun doing so. A second solution, perhaps blacklisting, may have to be used later on if this becomes a severe issue.
Because of the real-time nature of Gnutella, there are limits that can be placed on how much latency alteration that can be made. Queues are never massive at a single node, since most clients allow only relatively small send buffers. Early tests show 10% to 40% improvement on high-priority pr0n-containing packets. This is somewhat variable depending upon the network traffic -- if background traffic is composed mostly of smaller "ping" packets (instead of result packets), latency improvements tend toward the latter number.
There are a few other improvements on the table. Those of you that follow my work know that I'm interested in distributed trust used to rank the users. This trust network can be adapted to rank users based on the quality of the pr0n they serve, and give higher priority to users that give really top-notch pr0n -- unfortunately, this requires a client UI (and effort on the part of the user) to do manual ranking.
One more controversial proposal includes a Freenet-like network-wide caching system. Pr0n that is being frequently downloaded will be mirrored to as many systems as possible. This will improve download speed (and end-user experience, as people will be able to view locally-cached pr0n, and thus be introduced to new and interesting forms of pr0n). The p-cache (as it's already being called) even goes Freenet one better -- it is being designed to support speculative caching based on past searches. If your client catches even a hint, based on the searches that you've done, that you might be remotely interested in "cuties in French maid outfits on the beach", say, it will search and download all the related files it can find on the Gnutellanet. Aside from the massive cache of pr0n that builds up (if the user chooses to browse it), this is mostly user-transparent, yielding only low latency, high-availability pr0n searches tailored to your tastes.
Also notable is the support (for pr0n only, I'm afraid -- scarce network resources must be conserved) for multicast, introduced with the new UDP support. When you request a download of a large file, a remote server can give you a time offset until the file will be sent -- usually, an hour or two -- and will establish you as a "subscriber" of this file. When the time expires, the server will multicast-stream the pr0n file to all people that have subscribed to the broadcast. Now, an "hour or two" may seem like a long time, but it's far better than simply waiting in a unicast queue, possibly for days. You will need to be on the MBONE for this -- some college users or business users with videoconferencing may already have this handled, but the rest will need to request "MBONE support" from their ISP.
May we never see th
Check out http://www.furthurnet.org.
Legitimate P2P sharing of live music.
So if you have 6 hubs, all neighbours to each other, and the first gets a request it sends it to its neightbours. Then they all send the request to their neighbours??
/
How do they stop circular requests? Don't send to the request to the one that requested it is simple enough, but what about "multiple inheritence"?
Hub A knows hub B and hub C, but not D. Both B and C know D. D gets the same request twice?
A
/ \
B C
\
D
Can't A tell B and C to talk to each other once in a while and temporarilly remove D from either B or C's neighbour list to prevent wasting bandwidth? As soon as B or C goes down D can then automatically be re-added to D the neighbour list of the hub that is still up.
Why aren't hypernets mentioned in this spec? This spec sounds like a kluge on something that can't really scale
And forget about music being accurately labeled. All these kids nowadays think that anything remotely punk sounding must be by Blink 182.
I got in a chat argument with some dumbass who thought that Bjork wrote "99 Red Balloons". Do they bother to check discographies? No. They just pass on the ignorance like a dose of chlamydia. Christ, they're stupid. No wonder flared pants and piercings are considered cool.
Stealing music may be bad, but misrepresenting MP3s is just plain wrong.
Why aren't random walkers mentioned in this spec?
This spec seems like it was raced out in order to be the first Gnutella2 spec, rather than thought out in order to be a good Gnutella2 spec. :( While better than the original, it still seems full of problems. Maybe for Gnutella 3 everybody can work together as a group and adress all the issues instead of trying to out market each other >:(
While I'm not sure of the other Gnutella clients, Shareaza does have Bitzi ticket support, which in a way addresses one of your problems. You can look up a file and Bitzi will display ratings as well as magnet/EDonkey links and more. The biggest drawback is finding information for anything that isn't mainstream. It only has as much data as that submitted by other users. For an example take a look at the OpenOffice ticket.
It's not a perfect solution, but it works somewhat and it better then nothing.
P2P most certainly DOES have legitimate applications... Ever hear of Bit Torrent?
Essentially, the idea is this: When you are downloading a file, when you receive a packet of data, you now have that packet of data, and there's no reason you can't immediately share that packet of data.
So, people downloading something from a Bit-Torrent capable site are themselves distributing the content... as it is being downloaded!
The end result is that a huge number of clients can download content (iso images, etc) from a site without increasing the total bandwidth usage of the site by much at all.
Check it out - it's pretty amazing!
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
That other similar proposal was PARK, and it wasen't as good as Mike's.
Mike didn't invent remote queueing, but he did come up with a stable way of doing it in Gnutella rather than PARK.
Though, I would agree that some of his ideas in his initial Remote queueing proposal did borrow from other GDF members.
Calling Gnutella2 the "next revolution in P2P" would be like calling the latest model in horse-pulled carriages the "next revolution in transportation" years after the advent of the motor car.
This is like someone branching Linux, applying a few tweaks (none or few of which are actually their own idea), and then calling it "Linux 2".
Don't reward people who circumvent open development forums like the GDF by letting them co-opt the name "Gnutella".
Exactly the same message (@ least the first paragraph) was attached to the previous story on this topic, I believe it was even the previous gnutella2 story.
"Karma police, arrest this man, he talks in maths, he buzzes like a fridge he's like a detuned radio..." -- Radiohead
"We can confirm that Debian does *not* ship the version with the trojan horse. Our version predates it." [CA-2002-28]
You obviously have no idea what your talking about.
Gnutella2 isn't just a new searching mechanism. It's a combination of link compression, partial file sharing, download mesh, remote queueing, swarming and many many other technologies. (many which Freenet does not have)
More people will be using Gnutella2 than Freenet anyways. Freenet's search methods dont' really work. The only files readily availiable on it are popular files. So you couldn't really get out that "secret information" unless there were a kabillion sources. Not so on Gnutella2.
Perhaps you could first (A) Read the spec, (B) Download and use Shareaza and then (C) Learn more about the technology and methods it uses.
Well get the checksums from a legit site and check your files after download.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Perhaps you could first (A) Read the spec
And the spec is available where?
The article was a description, a summary, not a specification. The devil is in the details.
I wonder how many of the Star Wars geeks correcting you have ever been laid? Quite funny to see how anal people will get over little things.
DAMN *TREKKIES*
topic says it all :)
Oh, and if you want to be taken seriously, perhaps you should have the courage to put your name to your utterances.
It isn't a new searching mechanism at all, it is still using a brain-dead broadcast search. Link compression, partial file sharing, and the other features you mention are just putting lipstick on a pig. Oh really, so you must know how many people are using Freenet? What? Have you ever even used it? I have, and it works fine for me. Utter bullcrap. You have obviously never tried to use Freenet. What spec? I don't run Windows. Sounds like you need to take your own advice.mmmm, hash tables.
It was called PARQ and it was not used because it was more complicated to implement. And PARQ was proposed weeks after the first ideas about remote queueing - which came from LimeWire actually.
We should have encrypted searches and file transfers. Maybe using SSL?
We're talking about information exchange here, NOT LAW! If you or anyone still like to insist on Technology doesn't break the law, people do then go save lives and harass NRA instead and demand strict control over that "technology".
Preserve old classics: copy your collection onto all hard drives.
All of us should treasure his Oriental wisdom and his preaching of a
Zen-like detachment, as exemplified by his constant reminder to clerks,
tellers, or others who grew excited by his presence in their banks:
"Just lie down on the floor and keep calm."
-- Robert Wilson, "John Dillinger Died for You"
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