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Digeo To Ship Full-Featured Linux-based PVR
Gentu writes "Paul Allen, co-founder of Microsoft, has embraced Linux in his latest product offering, Moxi. Moxi is a PVR system from Digeo with some additional cool features, like wireless ethernet support, internet/router/firewall/gateway capabilities, DVD playback and more media functionality in general. OSNews has the article, screenshots and more information. "
Why would I want my PVR to act as a router?
I am going to venture a wild guess and say that the licensing costs to run windows on this thing would be the #1 reason why Mr. Allen is using linux...
To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
--E.C. Stanton
This article makes a big deal about the fact that Moxi is using Linux, but neglects the fact that TiVo has been out for a few years with a Linux-based PVR already.
Isn't TiVo's PVR based on *BSD or Linux?
Just adding "Linux" to the title doesn't make it newsworthy.
Sorry, but its just following the trend of TiVo.
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
This looks like just what I would want in a PVR. Linux is a robust operating system that is especially well suited to gadgets like this one. I've always thought that WinCe has too much bloat to be practical in this sort of application. With the DVD playback feature thrown in, I'm hooked.
No need to mod up, just read.
2 08&mode=thread&tid=129&threshold=2] that the co-founder of Microsoft would modify the product to use WindowsCE, but instead the Moxi has continued to be developed with Linux. In fact, Digeo seems really happy with the popular open source kernel. Continue reading to learn more about this exciting new product and view the exclusive screenshots we have for you.
A few months ago Paul Allen's Digeo [http://www.digeo.com] company acquired Moxi, who at the time was working on a TiVo-like PVR Linux-based solution, also named Moxi [http://www.digeo.com/prodserv/mediacenter.jsp]. Many expected [http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/03/29/1459
We talked with Toby Farrand, Digeo's CTO last week, and he provided us with some exclusive insight on the inner workings of the Moxi product. Digeo specifically chose Linux as the underlying operating system because of its open nature that allows all kinds of modifications and because it is fast and stable. "It was a very easy decision", Mr Farrand told us. "Linux is secure, complete and reliable".
Digeo's developers have made a large number of check-ins to the 2.4 and 2.5 versions of the Linux kernel. These changes were mostly to do with partitioning code and its security options, but Digeo are also the main maintainers of the ext3 filesystem. In addition, the Linux implementation used in Moxi boots from Open Firmware.
The Moxi product is the most powerful PVR system to be found today in this specific embedded market. It runs on a 733 Mhz C3 Cyrix x86 CPU, uses a Broadcom graphics chipset with dedicated video capabilities and is fully configurable by a cable provider. It comes with 40 GB of hard drive, but can easily use more than 100 GB. Moxi supports HDTV and has a TV-out (naturally), but no VGA output. Providers can customize the machine and the OS will also provide the required software for any additional peripherals (for example, a DVD or a CD-RW drive).
Digeo is concentrating on making Moxi a presentation device and a media center (it includes decoders for MPEG, MP3, DVD, Real but not Quicktime) and direct camcorder support is being considered for the future.
However, another very useful feature of Moxi is its ability to be... a server. It can function as an internet gateway and has a built-in firewall and router. It includes a modem so you can connect to the Internet directly, while it also supports plain ethernet and even wireless. Although these features will not be useful to all people, they bring Moxi a step ahead of the competition and they come pretty much "for free" due to the use of the GNU/Linux operating system. However, the Moxi is not (yet) an internet appliance so it does not offer a web browser.
Moxi can also be used as a VideoPhone. It can connect to other Moxis or via the PC, and supports the H.323 protocol. It will include MSN Messenger as well.
Moxi is the realisation of what Microsoft and Apple are trying to achieve with their notions of a "digital hub". Moxi is a PVR with the ability to play DVDs and other multimedia files, connect to a digital camera, view PhotoCDs (or view images on TV via an ethernet link to your computer), provide access to the internet and more. Mr Farrand believes that PCs can't be as successful in this particular area, because home computers do not interact correctly with TVs and cable providers, and that computers can't work as integrated with a channel (e.g. a scrambled cable channel like HBO which needs special bypassing) as a dedicated solution can offer. PCs take a "top-down" approach to try to behave as specialized devices, while in reality they are multi-purpose devices. This can create specific problems in usability and functionality of the system. Also, PCs are not secure enough for the PVR purpose, as most channel providers won't like to see their content easily pirated. Moxi provides such security after special agreements with the cable provider or channels. Another critical problem with PCs is latency and multithreading. "You don't want your recording to freeze or lose frames while you are checking your email or running a scheduled CRON job you had forgotten about", says Mr Farrand. "You expect recording and playback to work as well as when watching it on TV, live. Microsoft's or other solutions wouldn't have the same sophistication and seamless integration that a dedicated product would".
The current focus of the company is the USA market, but creating compatible versions for other regions wouldn't be too hard, Mr Farrand told us. In the US TV market, the Moxi can record on 5.1 surround sound, at 256 KB/sec and preserve this quality on playback. Users can change these settings via the TV user interface (which uses Macromedia Flash!).
The company plans to add OpenGL (and CGL) and 3D support and also license and port some games to their platform. The current games included in the device are simple games using Flash. Another useful feature of Moxi is that the ROM and operating system can be completely upgraded on the fly from the cable operator via the included modem. This way any bugs or other problems on the customer's device can easily be fixed.
Moxi will be available via cable providers or other Premium TV companies, and the hardware will be custom for each one of them. The price is not set in stone yet, but the company expects it to be in the same price range as the competition. Leasing options will also be available.
Moxi is expected to be launched in the begining of the new year, and it looks set to be an interesting player in the growing market of the PVRs and personal media center systems.
Yeah, I'm a Republican AND a geek. It is possible.
It's cool that this runs on linux, but it would be nice to see some of the higher layer software or tools provided in open source form.
I would love to get one of these and start writing collaboration apps that run on it, but if the development model is closed, how can I?
It's only going to be avail from your cable provider, you can't buy it at Circuit City, and they make a big deal of securing the content, which means I won't be able to "tape" SG-1 onto it and copy it to my burner. I'll pass.
A probably poorly designed tivo-ish router. I'd be interested in watching outgoing traffic. It would be very easy to put in a little reporting device to record what shows you watch, and what dvd's you watch. It might all be a ploy for in-depth marketing research.
Sold. I -love- my TiVo, but the lack of HDTV functionality is going to kill them if they don't rectify the situation quick. Several people I've talked to about getting TiVo are reluctant not because they have HDTV now, but because they want to be "ready" for it in the future. They don't want to invest in a technology that's near a dead-end.
Moxi will be available via cable providers or other Premium TV companies, and the hardware will be custom for each one of them.
IMO, that will be the biggest problem for them. Standalone TiVo is ubiquitous. It can be used with just about any source... anyone's cable box... any satellite system.
Of course, 90% of consumers (maybe more) are sheep. It might work out well for Moxi since the hardware will be coming from "their cable company" and not some third party. Do you think most cable consumers have any clue who makes their cable box and what features is has? To them this thing will be just another cable box with some cool stuff.
-S
--- What parts of "shall make no law", "shall not be infringed", and "shall not be violated" don't you understand?
"Another useful feature of Moxi is that the ROM and operating system can be completely upgraded on the fly from the cable operator via the included modem. This way any bugs or other problems on the customer's device can easily be fixed."
All those neat features you thought were too good to be true, that led you to buy the box? They were bugs. We fixed 'em. No need to thank us.
Lovingly yours forever,
The cable company.
I hope this thing is expandable, it would be cool then to have it be the wireless hub as well, serving out connections to laptops, etc around the house.
It will be interesting to see if they're as liberal is TiVo with the hacks though.
Even if it means having to live with windows (for now), I'd still rather roll my own PVR. You can do it easily for 5-6 hundred, and have the ability to burn VCDs or other archival means.
Even if they're using linux, with "server-like" capabilities, I really doubt they're going to give you any method to archive media outside of the box.
Some men spend their entire lives trying to kill themselves for having been born. --Ross MacDonald
The article states that the unit will have MSN Messenger built in. This might be a stupid question, but how will they get a licensed MSN Messenger on the Linux box? Doesn't that mean Microsoft will have to create a Linux port?
Confucious says: Man who runs behind car gets exhausted.
// jeku.com
My Freevo box is Linux based, and can act as a firewall/gateway/router. Do I get a slashdot article too?
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid.
take a look to freevo ( http://freevo.sf.net ) & MMboX ( http://mmbox.tuxfamily.org ).
If the cable company can offer it for the cost im paying for my Tivo per month, then I might switch just for the extra features. But - they need to allow me to FF through commercials easily, and not bombard me with annoying banners or ads. And it has to be FAST. If they try and stick their fingers to far into the pie, it'll be ruined. They'll need to play it smart.
press OK
:->
'nuff said
I know it's technically possible (I love Ogle myself) but how did they legally pull this off? Does this "Broadcom graphics chipset with dedicated video capabilities" have a DVDC licensed CSS decoder, is it included with the DVD extras package they're selling, is this all thanks to Jon Johansen, or has some company released a Linux version of a legal DVD player? Neither the article nor the company's website gives any details.
If this actually ships near the first of the year, like the article claims, it will be the first commercial HDTV PVR.
Of course, since they mention that it will be sold as a customized box for cable & satellite services, it's not clear what 'shipping' means. Does that mean that Moxi is done with the platform, or that DirecTV/Dish will be ready to ship a unit that I can buy?
If it's the former, it will be quite a while until we see these.
Moxi looks awesome. One of Digeo's partners is Scientific Atlanta. TimeWarner's digital cable boxes (most of them) are built by this company. In fact, the new "DVR" that TimeWarner is releasing soon is Scientific Atlanta's Explorer 8000. And from what I've read, it sucks (right now).
Which leads me to ask, why doesn't TimeWarner wait for ScientificAtlanta's Moxi-based device? I mean, TW is pushing HD in several markets, and yet the Explorer 8000 doesn't even support HD (even though the literature says it does... check the wiring diagrams, no HD).
Hopefully they will offer Moxi soon. I love my TiVo, but a sweet device like Moxi, integrated with my digital cable service, combined with HD support equals TV HEAVEN.
"And like that
*please* let this not be vaporware...
Sad to say it, if they sell a box with those features, thats as easy and convenient to use as my Tivo, my Tivo may be relegated to my bedroom instead of my living room...
This is only
If Bill Gates created a Linux-based vibrating buttplug, it'd be front page news on
(personally I'd use OpenBSD for that, less chance of a backdoor assault.)
:P
Trolling is a art,
Paul Allen, co-founder of Microsoft, has embraced Linux in his latest product offering, Moxi. Moxi is a PVR system from Digeo with some additional cool features
Uh oh....embrace and extend anyone?
...for what Bill did to Paul's car in Pirates of Silicon Valley .
(Not sure it really happened, though.)
What's this Submit thingy do?
I was loving it right up to the point where they explain that these will be available through the cable companies and enhanced tv providers. This means that it will be rented by and owned by companies that control what shows can be recorded, and can prosecute anyone caught 'tampering' with the device in any way.
If I could simply buy the hardware, great! But they know that they will make a more steady stream of money offering essentially a tivo like cable box to cable companies who can rent them to customers for $20/mo or more, who will gladly pay for them rather than $400 or more for a Tivo.
It's a great business idea, and I see them putting Tivo out of business in the larger markets. Tivo (and other pvr companies) will have to maneuver furiously to maintain their current customer base, nevermind a growing base.
But all is not so happy in geek land. You won't be able to record shows, or even pause shows, that providers don't want you to - and eventually that'll be most movies, lots of first run shows, etc. Skipping commercials may be disallowed at the providers descretion.
It's essentially a bid to take back TV, while providing customers with a facade of extra functionality. I bet they'll win, since eventually service providers will be required to use such devices if they want to carry certian premium channels - though that's a while away, it's coming.
-Adam
Ah yes, another epic battle is about to commence. Similar to how TiVo and ReplayTV started battling. The biggest problem I see with Moxi is that their business structure doesn't allow people to actually 'own' the boxes. The whole craze about TiVo is it's expandability and their functionality as a stand-alone product. I'm sure when they come out with the Series3 TiVo, they will have incorporated several of the features that the general public are crying for.
I think people are blowing this out of proportion. Moxi was an independent company until about 6 months ago, when they were bought by Digeo (Allen's company). So, there was a choice then to scrap all the Linux work and start from the ground up with WinCE or XP-embedded. Or, they could take the easier path and finish their Linux project.
I'm sure the costs or WinXX, and power of Linux were factors in that decision. But, it's not like he just snubbed MS, his cash cow, because Linux was too compelling.
Diego Mantoya, you killed my Tivo, prepare to die.
Does this thing have 3D accel functionality built-in? It'd be a perfect console. Imagine playing DOOM III on a big-screen TV. (Or, for the very rich, imagine it in a theater.)
MAME would be especially cool.
What's this Submit thingy do?
Hell, it won "Best of Show" at CES in January and they still haven't shipped a product. Their claim to having a deal with Dish Network also turned out to be completely bogus. Then, they nearly went bankrupt, fired their founder/CEO and got sold to Digeo.
Don't get me wrong. The stuff Moxi demo'd at CES in January was incredible and if they can pull off even a fraction of it, they'll eat TiVo for lunch (assuming TiVo doesn't respond with similar features). However, their kitchen-sink approach is hugely ambitious and it'll be tough for them to ship all the cool stuff they demo'd at CES, such as wireless distribution. That, coupled with the fact that they're selling boxes only through cable companies and other TV service providers, rather than as standalone devices, will probably keep the feature set minimized.
So don't hold your breath about getting everything they're capable of delivering.
What is their business model. Does anybody know?
You would think that people would realize that it is difficult to make money selling hardware. Somebody will always try to sell it for less. Without a decent margin on your equipment, why bother?
And I think that Tivo has shown that there is not a huge market left of people who want to pay a $10/mo subscription for updated channel programming lists.
So how exactly do these guys expect to make money?
-S
We Apprentice Developers and Designers
Paul: Bill, how's it hanging?
Bill: What's up?
Paul: I brought you my latest toy, man. It's a PVR and stuff.
Bill: Cool. What's it running, CE? XP?
Paul: Linux.
Bill: Linux? Linux? You frigging idiot, we're trying to crush Linux!
Paul: Since when?
Bill: I sent you an email, you retard.
Paul: Yeah? You'd better read your own freaking manual, bigshot genius, because you didn't copy me on that.
Bill: Crap. Oh, well. That's what I pay all those goddamn lawyers for. Look, I'll buy you out and go Chapter 6 or whatever it is these days.
Paul: But...but I don't want you to buy me out. This is my baby. Why don't you go think up something novel on your own? Oh, wait - you can't, can you, Mr. Innovation?
Bill: Piss up a stick, Allen. I want that Linux hellspawn dead asap.
Paul: Well, you can...what's that rumble?
Bill: Sounds like the plumbing.
Paul: Wait - don't tell me you turned the hoppers into smart devices.
Bill: Yep. Booted them up today, and they haven't been hacked yet.
Paul: What time this morning?
Bill: About ten minutes ago-
(Sounds of exploding geysers, shrill screams, porcelain shattering.)
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
If it's Linux-based, they'll have to release the sourceode for their version of the kernel, and any other programs derived from GPL'd software.
So unless interaction with the hardware was done at the userland level (ack!) with binary-only programs, then the code is available for you to hack at and change any way you want.
This is the GPL at its finest, allowing a competent user to implement his own ideas into an otherwise static featureset.
What's this Submit thingy do?
It should be noted that the Replay TV 5000 supports USB 802.11b adaptors. I decided to pick one of these up since it can use the net instead of requiring a phone line like Tivo
I'm sorry. But this is a huge disappointment. Something like VGA Out would be so easy to include on this PVR, with little cost-per-unit involved. Many people who own LCD/DLP projectors will find this lacking feature quite disappointing, as the Digeo could quite *easily* be a progressive DVD player and de-interlacer for standard TV.
Perhaps I'm missing the point and they have component video out, but not VGA? In this case, it's even sillier that they did not include a VGA out option.
i swear my userid used to be lower.
Personally, I think TiVo has an amazing interface...
I have DirecTiVo, and it has the *slowest*, *clumsiest* interface that I have ever used on any computer, including everything since the TRS-80 days. The interface hangs constantly for long pauses, refreshes the channel and program list so slowly that you can miss entire pages (!), and the for some stupid reason the program guide is alpha'd over the live signal, rather than scaling the live signal down into a corner box (which would allow me to keep watching it). All of these problems are true for the TiVo-style interface, and are worse for the DirecTV-style interface (you can choose which program guide you want). For chrissakes, TimeWarner's digital cable interface is better! (Do you know how much I hate to say that?)
I suppose you could argue that the pure-TiVo portions of the interface (i.e., other than the live tv parts) are okay, but even those are laggy, with poor layout and poor interaction (e.g., why doesn't hitting down at the bottom of a menu put you back up to the top?!). I find the whole searching mechanism totally unsophisticated, too. I'm generally disappointed with TiVo because it seems like a great idea and a poor implementation. Factor in the choice of USB as the sole digital interface for the next generation, and you can be certain that my next PVR will be the alternative: a PVR that supports wireless LAN (or at least ethernet), and that has a quick interface that supports channel surfing.
Note to self: RTFA.
Here're the Big Questions:
Can the cable companies forbid us from modifying the source?
At least parts of it are going to be GPL. Will they still be able to resist giving us the source code?
Even if they do give us the source code, can they forbid us from patching it and modding the box?
Is there legal basis for charges based on "violating the spirit" of a contract?
What's this Submit thingy do?
Just because the Linux Kernel runs the device doesn't mean there's going to be a shell, or that there are going to be any of the normal utilities you find in a standard Linux distribution.
This machine is designed as an embedded system. However, given the level of flexibility Linux provides, a *nix-savvy person shouldn't find it too difficult to add shell support, and I'm sure that, if Moxi doesn't come with a full distribution, then I'm sure some group will wing one out within a month or two of initial release. After all, there's an open-source OS for Lego Mindstorms, isn't there?
What's this Submit thingy do?
It's a great business idea, and I see them putting Tivo out of business in the larger markets. Tivo (and other pvr companies) will have to maneuver furiously to maintain their current customer base, nevermind a growing base.
It would be a great business idea, if someone hadn't already thought of it first. Tivo had this same business idea three years ago and had been trying to get exactly such a digital cable box device w/Tivo created. Cable companies weren't interested in buying from Tivo. They *are* interested in buying from existing cable box makers, like Scientific Atlanta.
SA's latest digital box has "Tivo-like" functionality, which basically means it can record to it's hard drive in much the same way you'd program a VCR. By time, with repeating recordings possible. In other words, it ain't too bright, but it does do minimal recording abilities.
Moxi has to compete with these heavily entrenched cable box manufacturers. Scientific Atlanta and thier ilk have been making cheap crappy boxes for cable headends for a long, long, long time, and have a product that is seemingly "good enough" to someone interested more in claiming "our cable company provides a PVR service!" than claiming "we provide a *good* PVR service".
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
It would be cool to see a low cost PVR board that
supports Linux to come out of this.
Right now I use Nuvrec (on a 1.5Ghz AMD) and
when the recording is done I make a second pass and encode an MPEGII file.
Nuvrec works great with a Wintv card at 720x480x30fps!
But I'd like to do hardware mpegII encoding.
It's not ROM if it can be overwritten. PROM or EPROM maybe, but not ROM.
creation science book
Keep in mind that so-called "standalone Tivos" are *analog* recording devices- they work with all systems because they support the ubiquitous analog inputs and do all the digital encoding and compression on-board. But to do HDTV cost-effectively, you'll have to capture the streams *prior* to decompression, since components capable of compressing a full HDTV source in real-time probably aren't going to be cheap enough to use in mass-market consumer devices for quite a while.
It's like the DirectTivo, which stores the encrypted, compressed satellite feed on the disk directly, and only decompresses / decodes when you watch. This requires custom, DirecTV-specific hardware. For DRM reasons, I doubt that any satellite or cable operator is going to let you grab unencrypted, but still compressed HDTV data from their set-top box and make it available in form to an external "standalone" PVR.
Of course, traditional VHF/UHF broadcast is a different matter, but keep in mind that, unlike a standalone Tivo, a PVR that supports broadcast *won't* automatically work with a cable or satellite system for the reasons described above.
Part of the reason why this isn't exactly true is because Microsoft announced [techcentralstation.com] it is completely dropping UltimateTV
I noticed that when you said "Microsoft announced..." you pointed to a news article on another site, rather than a press release on UltimateTV's site. So I read that article, and sure enough, the author of that article says "Already, Microsoft has announced that they're discontinuing their UltimateTV set-top box,". So then I clicked his link to UltimateTV's site, and found absolutely no mention of any supposed discontinuation.
The Press Releases section bears no mention of any discontinuation. You can still buy it. If the company discontinued the product, it wouldn't make much sense that they'd still be promoting it.
This ZDNet article mentions some restructuring:
But UltimateTV didn't take off as Microsoft had hoped, and the company recently announced it was restructuring that division and laying off some workers.
So I found that article.
And then what may be the source of this rumor. A ZDNet "Story" by David Coursey entitled, "Why UltimateTV was an ultimate failure." From the piece: "If you call Microsoft, as I did, you will find the company disagrees will [sic] my assessment that it is getting out of the DVR business."
So as near as I can tell, some guy thinks Microsoft is getting out of the market because they cut their staff from 500 to 160. I dunno, maybe they are, but my point is that there was never a "Microsoft announced..." moment. At this point, it's still rumor. So let's keep the facts-to-speculation ratio as high as possible on slashdot. You too, moderators.
Paul may piss off the people working on the X-Box, but he's not going to affect UltimateTV one iota.
If your speculation is what you were basing your conclusion on, then I must disagree. I doubt Microsoft is really all that happy that a founder's company is using Linux on anything, regardless of their relative strength in that market.
A perfect example of the party line from the 'hardcore' TiVo loyalists:
If you're watching live TV then you just don't understand Tivo. Either that or you have too much time on your hands. Get up and go do something useful.
First of all, if I want to channel surf, I ought to be *able* to do it without fighting through a laggy, crummy interface.
Secondly, some of us that own TiVo like a certain measure of uncertainty in our lives, and are not the sort of pre-programming automatons that you apparently think we *all* are.
If you put TimeWarner's DTV live TV interface next to TiVo, and think TiVo is better, you are hands-down, certifiably insane.
As for TiVo's search functions being sophisticated, I really have to continue to disagree. It's basic, and it works, but it's hardly the full-blown rules-based system that it could be if they put a little bit of thought into it. Plus, it's laggy, and there's no way to quickly scroll through the huge lists of results that it gets, and you can't attach boolean rules to recording instructions (e.g, record auto races with 'formula' in the title, but not 'formula vee'), and it's very difficult to tell what channel multiple instances of the same show is on because it only gives you the wierdo DirecTiVo channel designation (e.g., 'NY4' instead of translating to 'Local ABC', in spite of the fact that DirecTV supplies that information to it). Shall I go on?
TiVo: -1, Overrated.
IIRC, Tivo isn't x86 based. This is (it uses the C# processor from cyrix). This means it should be easier to roll your own PVR.
And why not also mention MythTV ... another open source Tivo-style project that continues to be actively developed as a "media convergence" system, but already sports most of TiVo's features.
Visit: www.mythtv.org
Please stop condescending to me about television. I barely watch mine (I'd guess about two to five hours per week, maximum). If I weren't so busy I might watch more.
Of course, that doesn't mean that I haven't noticed how much TiVo's interface sucks. And by the way, I did plenty of research about TiVo and all I heard were people raving about how revolutionary TiVo is, which indicates to me that most people are so thankful to have TiVo's core functions that they overlook its weaknesses. This has been confirmed to me since, because I have posted complaints to the tivocommunity.com forum about the interface, and all the responses were pure zealotry along the lines of what you've been saying to me.
Now be a good little boy and get away from your computer so you can go out into the real world and play with the other children. You really should lose the whole TV = evil bit -- it comes off as luddite and *very* condescending.
To those that think this is offtopic:
From the Motley Fool:
"Allen also owns a quarter of Dreamworks SKG, the Spielberg-Katzenberg-Geffen film studio, and nearly 16 million shares of Barry Diller's USA Networks (Nasdaq: USAI), which also controls the Home Shopping Network and Ticketmaster Online-CitySearch (Nasdaq: TMCS)."
Had the article not mentioned Allen, then it would have been offtopic to joke about his connection to Ticketmaster, but since he was mentioned, his investments are quite relevant. Clearly Allen is not a "free as in beer" or "free as in GPL" kind of guy.