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Terra Soft Reveals Linux/PPC Hardware Solution
Gentu writes "OSNews features an article revealing a new product from Terra Soft, makers of the popular PPC Linux distribution Yellow Dog Linux, which effectively enables YDL to run on its own platform. Terra Soft is offering a motherboard and a complete PC based on the 600MHz G3 (G4 is also planned). This is of course still PPC, but it ain't a Mac. However, the article hints that it might be technically possible to run Mac OS and Mac OS X via Mac-On-Linux." Prices start at about $500, with 1U rackmounts starting at $870.
All your bases belong to Natalie Bortman.
Looks like a nice system. A little slow, but I guess there's more of the slower CPUs available these days, and it does keep the price down.
Come to the University of Mars! Classes starting soon!
I would LOVE to use Mac OSX at home. The only problem is buying that expensive Apple hardware, maybe this would be a good solution...
I'm not sure it's something I'll rush out to buy, but it does sound interesting, if for no other reason than to add another dev/compile server to the stack we have at work.
Cobalt RaQ 4, IBM B50, generic 1U PC, Sun Netra X1, Apple Xserve.
Now if only SGI would make a 2P, 1U server. How thick is SGI's 4P Origin 300? 2U?
my bawls are filled with stuffing - who will clean them?
This forum has not yet seen any trolls. Its users are bored. Come and register here, and troll the hell out of the luxuryburgers.
V1.1 - Added Appendix-A for general posting guidelines suggested by AC (almost verbatim, minor html changes only)
V1.0b - First revision
Introduction:
Greetings Slashdot. I have noticed that trolls on Slashdot are having too easy a time recently, with the most random gibberish getting modded up and many child comments (bites) attached to it. This recent trouble can only realistically be due to an influx of newbies, so I have composed this FAQ to bring newbies up to speed and recognise trolls for the scum that they are.
On clichés:
I have deliberately elected to avoid the greatest cliché of FAQs, by not actually answering any questions, frequently asked or otherwise. Instead this will be an informative guide.
The FAQ:
Moderation :
This section gives guidelines on when to/when NOT to moderate.
- Groupthink moderation: When deciding whether to moderate a post, take no cues from existing moderations. It is well known in the trolling (often referred to as 'trollerizing') community that the first moderation is critical; if somebody spots you as a troll, all subsequent moderations are likely to be troll. If, however, the first moderator mistakenly thinks it is insightful, then the rest of the moderators will think it is insightful too. Avoid this mentality and ignore current moderations entirely. Judge a post solely on its merits, ignoring what others think.
- Follow the links: Related to the point above, a comment with links (often purporting to be a mirror or further information) will often get moderated very highly. It seems the mentality is that the comment has informative looking links, and is moderated as insightful, so it must be insightful, right? Wrong. All it takes is one moderator to assume it is legitimate and moderate it up, the rest of the moderators then partake in groupthink moderation. You will not. Click on all the links and read the linked articles. If they are informative, mod them up. If they are 'ghostsee links' (a horrific image of a distended anus) then mod them as trolls. If you do not wish to follow the links, then don't moderate the post. Simple.
- Check the facts: If a post produces a mass of information, be it figures, quotes or whatever, check his sources! It may be that the figures are made up off the top of his twisted head; if no sources are offered and Google doesn't turn up anything, the chances are that it is made up. Scientists wouldn't believe a paper with no cited references. Follow the rules that should be becoming clear: if the information checks out and is informative, mod him up. If it totally doesn't check out and seems to be made up, mod him down. When in doubt? Don't moderate. And remember the golden rule - other people's moderations are no guide to veracity. Avoid groupthink moderation.
- What's in a name: Do not moderate people up based on their name. There are two facets to this:
- If somebody writes a shit comment, it deserves modding down. Just because Alan Cox happened to write it makes it no more insightful than if 'Peg Troll' wrote it. Do not moderate up famous people.
- ...And it probably isn't them. Does $famousPerson even post on Slashdot? Are you sure that's how they spell their name? Does the name say 'Alan Cox' or 'by Alan Cox'? The latter of the two is very hard to spot in context. Check their UID - then check their posting history. Check that they are who they say they are. Even if they are, you should generally not moderate them based on their fame unless it is because they are commenting on an area in which they have specialist knowledge.
- What's in a name revisited: Do not moderate them up because they are female. Firstly, they are almost certainly men pretending to be females exploiting this weakness that I am now advising you of. Secondly, even if they are female, even if they would like you because you modded them up, moderation is ANONYMOUS. Remember, moderate up the quality of the post and trolls are scuppered from the start.
- Opinions: Feel free to moderate up personal opinions - just don't do it solely because they agree with your point of view. If it is well argued, eloquent, mod it up. If it is badly argued, a stereotype taken to extremes, mod it down. If it takes things too far but happens to agree with your point of view, it is likely a troll looking for your kneejerk mod. Even if it's not, it doesn't deserve modding up as it takes things too far.
CommentingThis section gives guidelines on when to and when not to reply to a comment. This will cover several of the points made in the moderation section.
- Linux 8 - as discussed, there is nobody on Slashdot who doesn't know the difference between the kernel and Redhat.
- Lunix - nobody posts this accidentally. Yes, we all know that there is a different OS called Lunix and you pointing it out is not clever - the troll will be even more happy with this than a plain correction.
- O(log n) - if someone gets the big-o expression for an algorithm or process wrong, think how that came to be. They made it up off the top of their head. People can have opinions on many things, but they cannot be of the opinion that the TSP is O(n log n) - it is just wrong. The only exception is if somebody tentatively suggests that they vaguely remember that it might be O(...) but they aren't sure.
- Dijkstra - this man was a genius, but even he could not invent as many algorithms as trolls attribute to him.
- GPL - Anybody asserting that their lawyers told them X about the GPL where you know X to be wrong. If this man had really consulted lawyers, do you think that the lawyers would get wrong that which you got right?
That was just a sample - I hope to come up with a more definitive list sometime in the near future.I hope that helped, any contributions will be gladly received as a reply to this comment. One last rule:
Never EVAR start a comment with "I know you're a troll but..." This is trolling gold dust. Nothing is better than somebody saying that they are too smart to be fooled by you and then writing a 1000 word point-by-point rebuttal.
Appendix A: General posting guidelines by AC
You are not funny if you post these "jokes":
Don't post Microsoft bashing comments on stories that have nothing to do with Microsoft. Also, if you talk about Microsoft, write Microsoft or MS, not Micro$oft, M$, MicroShit, MicroShaft, MickeySoft of any variation of these.
Learn the difference between its/it's, there/they're/their, effect/affect, your/you're and ridiculous/rediculous. Just by learning those five groups, you'll be able to avoid 90% of the annoying Slashdot typos.
It is nice to see that the PCI bus is now commonly used in *all* desktop computers (Atari, Amiga, Mac and IBM Compatibles). This makes it so much easier to buy devices and to find/port drivers. I remember Atari's old HDD interface that forced me into buying a really expensive Atari HDD instead of a much cheaper IDE driver...
I'm curious if anyone knows if the FULL range of MAC apps run under MAC on linux. It's great if these apps run native or near native speed on this hard/software combo but I think it would be prudent to wait until the G4 version is available just for the power. Also, is this competitive, price wise, with say, buying an old G3?
In fact, probably even the new EPIA-M board is a better deal for many applications; the EPIA-M costs $160 with processor, uses a 933MHz C3 (Pentium compatible), is tiny, and uses comparatively little power. And if you buy one of those, you don't even give money to the other monopoly.
Anyone else notice how small the CPU heatsink and fan is on that PPC mobo? I guess it is only 600 MHz and it's the newer G3.
But still... it's smaller than the little heatsink/fan on my PC's motherboard chipset!
This forum has not yet seen any insight. Its users are bored. Come and register here, and insightful the hell out of the luxuryburgers.
So, how many SPECfp2000 and SPECint2000 do you get out of a 600MHz G3? How much cache does it have on the chip and on the board? What speed of RAM does it take?
So I guess I just dont get it. Why is this worth the effort.
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
I'll consider one if NetBSD runs on it.
I hate to nitpick... but it's "Mac", not "MAC".
Mac is short for Macintosh, a series of computers sold by Apple Computer Inc.
Did you really?
FreeBSD 5.0 will have a PPC port. I wonder if it will run on this hardware? I imagine the only requirement is an OpenFirmware BIOS for booting.
This is excatly the same board that Eyetech is selling as their AmigaOne... So, why has this suddenly jumped under Apple category?
a salesman when I was looking for a new wristwatch. Luckily there were plenty of models that could boot NetBSD.
Interesting here that YDL are trying to "pimp" it as there platform, but with other PPC linux distros making there way along then it does give you a nice choice for a cheap linux desktop solution.
Yes it might be cheaper to buy x86, but what about these people who want to experiment on new platforms? Also the reason why x86 is cheaper is due to mass demand, i imagin that if they get a lot of sales of these PPC mobos then the prices will drop
I personally is very interested in getting one of these just to experiance PPC, strange as it may sound but ive never really touched a PPC based platform in my life! (dont ask me how to modify BIOS settings or whatever on a Mac :))
"What do you mean you have no ice? Do you expect me to drink this coffee hot?" - Random Customer, Clerks
It's the IBM PowerPC 750CXe.
.18 micron process.
.13 micron with all of the buzzwords (silicon-on-insulator, etc).
This is the slightly older version of the PPC 750 "G3". This 750 CXe model has 256 KB of on-die L2 cache and is fabbed at a
The newer 750 FX model (as used in the current Apple iBooks) has 512 KB of on-die L2 cache and is fabbed at
I belive this board uses PC133 RAM. 133 MHz x 4.5
i find that tidbit interesting, why was this modded down?
oops, I guess it's a RaQ 2, the model that uses the MIPS cpu.
the 17" widescreen iMac is quite nice... but not for $2000. I wish it was available with a plain DVD-ROM/CD-RW "combo" drive rather than the DVD-RW/CD-RW "superdrive", though. Save a few bucks that way.
It's a temping little machine, in fact it's almost moreso an executive system than a home/school machine. But right now I can get a refurbished single cpu G4 tower and a 19" samsung DVI monitor for the same price.
It's not mentioned in the story, but this board is the Teron CX, which is also distributed under the licensed trademark "AmigaOne G3-SE".
There's also a model with the CPU on an exchangeable module, called Teron PX (or "AmigaOne XE" when it's marketed to AmigaOS users). Hopefully we'll see Terrasoft and others selling Teron PX as well, which offers G4 and 750FX (a newer, faster G3 design) CPUs.
Due to a seriously fscked up compulsory licensing policy for AmigaOS, that OS will however not be sold separate from licensed hardware and be allowed to be installed on Teron boards from vendors who are not licensed by Amiga, Inc., like Terrasoft.
P.S. Why is this story under "Apple"? MOL runs fine on these, but come on!
Help savingAmigaOS and a free PowerPC market
The real question that should be asked here is, "Can it run Doom3?" If so, I might consider purchasing it. Or maybe a beowulf cluster....
Since it's a PPC, skr1pt k1dd1ez will have a whole lotta trouble trying to crack it with cut-and-paste x86 rootkits. Of course, it will not stop a knowledgeble attacker and is not at all a substitute for applying errata in a timely fashion, but it's still a significant plus in my book. And if you use YDL, it will be nearly identical in every feature to your x86 Red Hat Linux boxen.
I can totally see it running as a firewall/external webserver/DNS server box. Of course, granted that TerraSoft mobos aren't POS. Only time and wide use will tell.
If you open yourself to the foo, You and foo become one.
Thinking of building a beowulf cluster in your home?
Think again. You may need special power wiring and air conditioning to handle a rack with any significant number of CPUs in it.
But one should be able to build a PowerPC beowulf cluster that is powered by household AC and still get a significant number of CPUs on the rack, and not have to add air conditioning to the room.
Request your free CD of my piano music.
As both our companies (TSS + Mai) are strong proponents of the Linux community, we are eager to provide specs and support in order to gain reciprocal support of the Linux community and quickly advance support for as many cards as is possible.
(...)
We will encourage the Linux do-it-yourself tradition by empowering individuals to seek and discover solutions to the best of their ability before we assist them directly.
I like this!
With the x86 hegemony and the growth of "you-don't-need-to-know-how-this-thing-works" hardware, I find this one refreshing. If someone made something like this using MIPS architeture, I'd buy it for sure.
Prescriptive grammar:linguistics
Hey, I said insightful, not offtopic!
You won't be. The only reason Mac-On-Linux works is because the macs they are being run on actually have the Mac ROM chip that enables 9 and X to work. AFAIK without that ROM neither system will boot.
So It isn't technically possible to run Mac OS anything on these without having an Apple Mac ROM, and we all know if you have that sans a real Mac, Apple will come to beat you down with thier big legal sticks. So they should be happy they can't run the Mac OS.
P.S. Even the old style iMacs which you can still purchase, outperform these machines.
-"I'm one of those Mac people that will break a bottle on the bar and hold it to your throat for bad-mouthing my system"
This board is also being sold by Eyetech (www.eyetech.co.uk) as the AmigaOne SE, which has already been shown running Mac On Linux via SUSE I believe. Also keep an eye out for the Teron PX board, which will have a socket to swap CPU modules, which I believe can use Mac CPU modules.
Can anyone explain the fascination with running OS X on non-Apple hardware? the beauty of OS X (imho) is that it finally offers elegantly designed and powerful software for elegantly designed and powerful hardware, why the urge to stick it in some nasty biege box?
You DO know that MacOS no longer uses a hardware bootrom, right? And that you CAN copy the bootROM off of any MacOSX install.
MacOnLinux actually comes with documentation telling you how to do this, since some people can have trouble getting to bootrom to load off the OSX partition, so they copy it to their linux partition, then tell MOL to load it from there.
This is where I get my recommended daily allowance of "Foot in Mouth."
Mentor Arc originally developed their power PC board as a reference board for embedded systems dedicated to a particular purpose. You see, most embedded systems don't use general purpose motherboards but build their own custom board around a reference, hence the added value. The Mentor Arc board was so unreliable that it's no surprise that they finally opened up to the idea of general purpose computing in the end. As wonderful as custom boards are, sometimes you need to let the customer figure out what to do with it so you can work out the kinks.
The one question that I had about the specs is the AGP sharing with the PCI slot.
From what I remember, the AGP bus connects directly to the chipset along with the north & south bridges. What exactly are they doing when they say 'sharing'?
It's a bit unfortunate that Slashdot would reuse a marketing term like "solution" to refer to a product. Computers aren't a solution, they're the beginning of all your problems!
Apple desktops really do not get hot inside. Maybe some of the really fast ones do now, but the G3 is cooler running than the G4 (hence the G4 TiBooks being hot). Even the new windtunnel G4s are not supposed to be really hot... just some planning for the future (and bad choice of fans according to people who have swapped them out).
any G4 i have opened and poked or licked (ok, not licked) while running "processor intensive" things (yeah yeah i know.... bad me) has been very cool.... my G4 heatsink is as cool as anything else in the box (1 case fan and 1 fan in powersupply). When people say the PPC chips use less power and generate less heat they are not kidding. My housemate has older Intel boxes (running Linux and BSD, it's ok) and they literally raise the temp of his room.... my G4 blows cold air out the back. go figure.
offhand i don't think anything from Apple has had a fan on the processor.... even the newest dual 1.25GHz machines have a fan blowing across the heatsink on the processors, but nothing like the standard Intel/AMD thing of the mini fan attached to the chip itself. i guess that is part of the reason Macs are generally quieter (if they have a fan at all)..... those mini fans have a terrible sound. i disabled the one on my Radeon7500 because it sounded like a food processor full of gravel. the case is cool enough that it didn't seem to matter anyway.
The only question is, will it run OpenBSD's PPC port? Now that would be a secure machine!
I hope they sell some of the machines though. After all, choice is always a good thing.
---
Open Source Shirts
Maybe this would be a good product to use as a server. If their server is one of these it seems to be handling the /.ing just fine, and has an uptime of 245 days.
The specs in the article don't make any reference to having on-board Ethernet, but in the pictures it looks like there's an RJ-45 connector on the board. Anyone know for sure? That'd be very useful. I seem to recall the POP spec including Ethernet, so it probably does.
-- Alastair
Another plus is that Palladium would not available for this platform and MS would have no handle on them either.
So, what would be the advantage of this solution vs. a Pegasos/upcoming Amiga PPC systems?
Cost? Better graphics on the next gen Amiga solutions?
this is an open source board. running open source software. in an alienware caes!? i want green!
if this architecture allows for the ibm 970, a really nice open platform will be available.
Very true.
Terra Soft's BriQ might be a better solution for some people since it is smaller (fits in a 5.25 bay) and available now. I really think they are well suited to lots of different uses. clusters, monitoring, IDS, logging, security devices.
Of course these new boards will be more expanadable and a little cheaper. Just depends on what you want it for.
In any case, I actually doubt that "G3 kicks the bejeezus out of the EPIA". I have both an iMac and an 800MHz EPIA, and I actually run compute-intensive stuff on them.. A 400MHz G3 is probably no faster than a 400MHz P3, and a 933MHz C3 probably is somewhere around a 300MHz P3 since the 800MHz C3 comes in at around the same speed or faster as a 250MHz P3 in the benchmarks I tried.
As for gcc maturity, the C3 is Pentium compatible. Linux just runs on it. If it's not as well optimized, that only means that there is more room for improvement over the above comparison; PPC optimization for gcc looks like a done deal--it won't get much better. What I do know from personal experience is that "porting" to the EPIA or any desktop PC is much easier than to the iMac/PPC: again, code just runs, while on PPC, you face byte order issues and x86 assembly doesn't work (e.g., for MPEG codecs).
I was thinking about going to the trouble to upgrade from my sturdy, but old PowerMac 7500 running YDL to an Intel box running Red Hat 8, but damn, Terra Soft has me convinced to stay on board.
Good show guys.
Anyone know what the x86 equivalent, speedwise, of a 600MHz G3 is? Running linux especially. I'm looking for benchmarks because I don't trust anectodotal info anymore. Wouldn't mind seeing G4 comparisons too, but G3 comparisons probably more fundamental since G4 needs software optimizations in order to perform better than G3 and I assume G4 optimizations pretty much out of question on linux.
I am a homosexual. I bought an Apple computer because of its well earned reputation for being "the" gay computer. Since I have become an Apple owner, I have been exposed to a whole new world of gay friends. It is really a pleasure to meet and compute with other homos such as myself. I plan on using my new Apple computer as a way to entice and recruit young schoolboys into the homosexual lifestyle; it would be so helpful if you could produce more software which would appeal to young boys. Thanks in advance.
with much gayness,
Father Randy "Pudge" O'Day, S.J.
I'm worried about the thinly veiled false advertising on this page:
r /g 3-vs-g4.shtml
http://www.terrasoftsolutions.com/products/boxe
Instead of side-stepping the issue, you should sell everything out plainly. What you have written here is unethical and could easily backfire.
For example:
"Does this mean that the G4 offers nothing for Linux users? Not at all. For heavy code development, high performance (scientific) computing, and video rendering the G4 is a must. "
Why not just say there is no AltiVec optimized programs bundled with YDL, however if you wish you may develop some yourself? To dismiss the question with "Not at all" suggests something to people who don't necessarily fall into the category of "heavy code development", whatever the heck that is.
"The Linux OS graphical user interface, however, is not customized to use any particular CPU. As it is maintained for several platforms such as Intel, AMD, and IBM/Motorola PowerPC CPUs alike, there is no performance hit for lack of the AltiVec unit. Linux is fast because it is lean and designed to stay that way."
There are several problems here. First of all you spin the fact that the "Linux OS graphical user interface" isn't optimized as a good thing. Clearly this is not a good thing. Secondly you mention that there is no performance hit when you're lacking AltiVec. Clearly using a G3 instead of a G4 does create a performance hit, and how else are you going to get AltiVec? It's dishonest to imply otherwise. Thirdly you add the nonsequitur "Linux is fast because it is lean and designed to stay that way" even though the paragraph is about Linux OS graphics! Linux graphics and 'lean' are incompatible terms. Fourthly, and most heinously, you insert the word "however" which directly implies that there are non-graphical programs in Linux OS which are optimized. Clearly this is not the case.
"The G3 performs very well with a standard desktop applications; as a network, application, and web server. It runs quiet and cool. It is less expensive than the G4. And it will offer the performance you need for desktop and server applications."
This is a value judgement. It is not your place to tell people what ought to be enough performance unless this was in response to a specific scenario. If this was money management advice you would be arrested. Poor computing purchasing advice is no less ethically heinous!
TerraSoft, please stop your misinformation campaign. It isn't helping anybody. It's embarrassing and you should be ashamed!
Hey Grandpa, how are you meeting other homos like yourself? I thought the Vatican is against cloning?
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