Slashdot Mirror
ISP's Slapping Techs For Lending A Hand
Mike writes "Broadband Reports is running a story about how several large ISP's have reprimanded, even fired techs who offer support in BBR's forums in their free time. BellSouth is the latest ISP to forbid any official tech support representation. Instead of sculpting PR guidelines for techs to follow, they're
scaring them into submission."
With war and hatred so predominant these days, it's hard to believe that during the Holiday season, people are actually discouraging kindness.
If you celebrate Xmas, befriend me (538
Bah, this is rediculous, they aren't on the clock, they aren't getting paid for it, they know this. So now anyone who works on open source software in their free time they're going to demand pay as well? No, i think not. If someone likes helping people, or writing software or solving problems (which is usually the case) they can do that in their free time and not get paid for it, why would they think that?
Kyle
Kyle
http://www.unlogikal.net/
Information, like free time, should be free. If these techies offer support in their free time, anyone who'd get in their way is subclassing Hitler.
Cretin - a powerful and flexible CD reencoder
In related news, Linus Torvalds, head honcho of the Linux kernel hackers, recently fired a half-dozen developers for going above and beyond normal code writing. Linus found them in multiple IRC channels offering computing support in their free time, which was a clear violation of the Linux team's No Assistance or Help (NAH) policy that was adopted in the mid-1990s.
If you celebrate Xmas, befriend me (538
I worked for a dial up ISP, I did techsupport, I would aways go way out for the customer and I would help fix all the problems they were having with out service. ALot of times I got offers to go to their house and fix their computer, but I always told them I couldnt. But I also Build and fixed computers on the side and I recommended this ISP to alot of people. So one time on the phone I was talking to someone I build a computer for and I guess the manager heard me talking about the computer I built for them over the phone, and word got to the owner and I was fired. They also got mad at me for telling people they needed a new HARDWARE based modem. I had alot of calls that people complained about disconnections and slow connection rates. SO I would recommened them to buy a USR hardware based modem, for some reason the ISP I worked for didnt like this so I would always get in trouble. Im glad I dont work for that company any more, they were more into making a profit then helping their customers.
Oh well..
keanmarine.com
The ISPs don't want the potential liability of having their employees giving out anything other than the "company line," whether in an official capacity or not. I can't really say as I blame them. What if ISPTechA is posting on BBR and the advice he gives leads someone to wreck their hard drive? What if ISPTechB makes an offhanded comment about how ISPTechA sucks goat nards?
.sigs about how "the opinions of this post are that of the author and not the employer." Some companies handle it that way, and some are a bit more draconian by forbidding non-official contact across the board. But it all boils down to liability.
You've probably seen plenty of usenet posts with long
I have had SBC DSL since they offered it. I was an early adopter and paid for it heavily with downtime and mysterious router issues. Add to that I actually signed up for static IP addresses and bandwidth guarantees and I feel into the black hole when it came to support.
The techs working undercover on Broadband Reports helped me out and since then, two years, I haven't had a single issue.
This raises the interesting prospect of if they weren't available I would have cancelled and taken my business elsewhere. Where I am located there are multiple companies and solutions available, so I am lucky.
99.9% of the techs on the boards do it for their own gratification. I call it the Samaritan Effect. It's what online support used to be back in the days of the BBS and message networks. Personal handholding on issues that others could learn from.
Each time a tech takes the time to answer a question, solve a problem or offer advice it lightens the load on the overworked phone staff.
The techs enjoy it because they find, gasp, satisfaction that they are making a difference in their jobs. Most of those folks are not customer facing getting their orders from ticket systems, etc. It provides them a chance to make a difference.
Yes, there are negative implications on doing this, but for the most part it works. Providers should read the Cluetrain Manifesto for more exposure to what they should be doing.
Companies just want customers to go through the traditionial support lines in order to provide statistics about problems. If everyone uses BBR's forums, then the company doesn't have statistics about problems with it's modems, then it doesn't know to issues patches or not.
Seems common sense to me...
You know, when when I first read some of the semi-near future cyberpunk stuff (like SnowCrash and Gibson's "bridge trilogy"), I thought the way the future was being portrayed was simply taking things to an absurd level with excessive litigation and examples of corporate bad-citizenship. Now everywhere I turn it seems like the predictions are spot on and the bleak realities that we read as fiction are slowly becoming truth. As much as I like SciFi that paints the future as full of Shiney Happy People, I think the reality is that we'll all end up living on a bridge or in subway tunnels someday...
"Where quality is like a dead stinking rat - you just can't miss it."
Free time during work time or when they go home?
The employees should be allowed to do pretty much anything they want when they go home. (apart from selling non-disclosure agreement secrets.) This is kinda like firing a doctor for curing someone without charging them. Seems kinda silly to me.
But then again, the tech market is in a slump, and they may need the money.
If this is during work though, it's somewhat understandable (note: I am not condoning it (IANCI).). Some offices prefer you work for them during work hours, and not work for free online.
As well, if these techies are giving out details that they aren't allowed to (due to some agreement or another). Then again, it is understablable (IANCI). Businesses have their "intellectual property" that they'd prefer to sell then give away.
Seem odd though for a company to do this and risk the bad press.
~ kjrose
the fact that you're an anonymous coward makes me not want to say anything here but i will anyway. This isn't the United States attitude. I think the companies are just ticked they aren't getting the free service, and for some reason they think they might be held reliable in some way. Other than those excuses, i don't see why this is happening. Certain companies are just companies, they think with their wallets than with their brains. I am curious if they could sue though. Then again, i'd just take my expertise elsewhere, where it will be appreciated rather than take advantage of or questioned.
Kyle
Kyle
http://www.unlogikal.net/
Must have been a slow news day. I love it when people report on an ongoing trend as if it is "New" all of a sudden. What is their next news flash? That moisture, when it falls from the sky in the form of rain, tends to get things wet?
I worked for a dial-up ISP for several years. In 1999 they closed our forums so that the techs could not answer questions that way. The only way after that to get tech support was to call us or to send an E-mail. No public forums allowed. At the time it was justified by saying that we were only following an industry trend.
What this article should have pointed out is that the shutting of access to a help forum has more to do with the disinegration of the item being supported. You only restrict access if their is a problem. This is a bigger indicator that the broadband networks are overloaded and are starting to self destruct more than it is a new indicator of customer service. Look for some major system failures in the next year (like anyone with any industry knowledge didn't already know that).
Papa Legba come and open the gate
they don't want the customers to use bandwidth, it lowers margins.
Karma: Censored (mostly affected by decency laws)
Is the key and operative term used in the article. It makes perfect sense for these companies to want to have some control over what will get said by THEIR employees and hence as THEIR _Official_ representatives. There are lots of techs out there who are quick to say/write/post things that are offensive/incorrect - policy guidelines notwithstanding, and there's no good way for these companies to retract/correct them. How many times have _you_ dealt with a surly/incompetent/incoherent tech that reflects very poorly on their company ? Could you imagine the company having a policy that, say, only fluent English speakers are allowed to post, without that company being open to lawsuits ?
I don't blame these companies a bit for wanting to be able to control what their company says and how their company is portrayed. The article says nothing about the companies prohibiting the techs from posting in an unofficial capacity.
I can sort of understand this. From my skimming of the article, it looks like the employees were offering their time in an official capacity while off hours. This is somewhat of a no-no, because then the employees are presenting themselves as representatives of their employer, during a time which they are not at work. This could potentially cause all sorts of problems for the company, since the employees won't be working within the offical support model framework that the company uses. (eg: Solution for X is Y, etc.)
This is akin to an employee offering up advice to people on the street corner, off hours, saying that it's the offical position of his employer. It would introduce all sorts of legal headaches if something gets broken, someone gets misinformed, etc.
I fail to see anything in this article that says that employees cannot offer tech support off hours, it just says that they can't do it and say it's the stance of their employer, as indicated by "As of December 31, BellSouth employees will not be allowed to lend a hand in any official capacity." So what's to keep someone from helping out without saying it's their company's line? Nothing.
Techs who provide support in a non-authorised manner and therefore unsupervised manor should be prohibited from doing this.
I personally have seen incorrect information posted on BBSs. Yet if the poster IDs him/herself as an employee of company X and that incorrect information causes damage the company could be liable. The article says "So instead of spending twenty minutes drafting clear corporate policy on public forum relations protocol, some companies clamp down on such activities; sometimes brutally." No they took there 20 minutes and elimiated a potential legal loophole. Running a proper BBS forum would take a lot of resources and I can understand why a corportaion would want to clamp down on this.
This isn't the evil empire. This is CYOA. And considering the amount of stupid and incorrect information that can be found out there I don't blame them on bit!
Slashdot, home of supporters of free software, free music, and free speech.Except for Moderators that disagree with you.
I've spent alot of time participating in TiVo forums. Glad that TiVo is a little more farsighted in this area. There are quite a few TiVo employees on the TiVo boards, and the always are able to provide the best information.
The corporate world is all about politics, not technology. The people that know the technical answers cannot know the politics behind the problems.
It could be very bad for the company if a moonlighter helps with a security issue, say, when the offical company line is to deny its existance.
People should do what their job descriptions says they should do.
The Cluetrain is leaving the station!
This also reminds me of a semi-large MSN Tech outsource that did the same thing both on and off the clock. The MSN motto for support was "Get that customer off the phone!" Actually helping the customer fix their issue was frowned upon if it took more than 60 seconds. As an employee, the techs were also forbidden to, in any way, say that they represented MSN in a public forum, even while on the clock! I, for one, still rate a company largely on thier customer relations. Too bad there isn't a big ISP that taps that demographic...
BellSouth employees will not be allowed to lend a hand in any official capacity
It is important to be cautious in drawing many conclusions from a single press account. As everyone knows, sometimes the press does a mediocre job.
The key word is "official" -- the company should and must control its employees' official activities, because they are then acting as representatives of the company. This is standard business law. True, the company would get credit for the good things the reps did in their spare time, but it would also get the blame or, worse, monetary liability.
So the employees shouldn't do it if told not to. That might be dumb business logic for the company, but who knows, is is their call. Assuming the reps were doing a good jobs and not generating complaints, their committment sounds laudable. I've avoided calling for tech help of any sort for years b/c of frustration with clueless techs (not always, but too often).
That's the right; but here it *sounds* like the companies here are also being jerks about it and treating their employees reprehensibly. That's a whole 'nother ball of wax, and one for which I am entirely unsympathetic.
If they get fired, won't that release them from any corporate online behavior guidelines? Then they can offer support on the forums as members of the public until the cows come home. And they won't have any obligation not to badmouth the company when it deserves it.
I can't imagine this... I've been a technician for about a year and a half. I think I got the job *because* I helped people in my spare time. I know for a fact my employer went to google groups and did a search on my name ... They must have put something really potentially damaging (to the business) in their posts?
FLR
Here's the announcement thread on the forums.
By a tech support company in Toronto the second day on the job. The company itself was chin deep in the Snow White virus. The people there were clueless outside of their tiny domain of expertise.
I described the letter promoting it to some people working there so they'd know what to avoid, trying to help you see, and this girl went to management and they fired me.
When the word got back to the agency that sent me there THEY fired me. Twice in one day, a personal best.
I'm not making this up.
It's Christmas everyday with BitTorrent.
The things they do in their spare time are not their own business if they do it in the name of the company they work for. By identifying themeselves as employees of said company, they are no longer acting as private individuals, but as representative agents of a corporation.
"Because you're tired of companies who care."
I'll form my OWN solar system! With blackjack! And hookers!
First of all, the employers need to get all their support personnel to sign NDAs. I worked tech support for a small regional ISP and we were not allowed to tell people what brand of AS we used (this could change), the speed of our uplink, the model of our gateway router, details of our network map, etc. What's wrong with that? (I should mention that we also always recommended hardware-based modems and customers could bring in their PC for connection troubleshooting FOR FREE. This was a great ISP.)
Second, though, these tech support people should know better than to identify themselves as employees of the ISP. That makes it sound like it's official company policy when it's really just some guy saying "try this... it might help".
Recently, I had a very interesting conversation on the phone with the Verizon Residential DSL support people. So I call up; I realize (due to factors of age and gender) I don't "sound like a geek" but I am. After a few minutes the tech realized he was conversing with a fellow techie, and we worked together to solve my problem (him using Verizon's proprietary tools and me using RoaringPenguin's pppoe and standard Linux TCP/IP tools). He was quite nice and we even had an ongoing side-discussion about running Linux on the PowerPC architecture while we worked to solve the problem.
Then it came time to hand off the problem to Verizon's internal tech support team, since it became obvious that it was a systemic problem affecting people in my area (or at least me, but we determined that the problem was clearly on their end, not mine). At this point, my friend tech apologized, and warned me that this report might not go anywhere-- since I was not running Windows on my box. Apparently, internal tech support only honors reports from people running Windows...
It's just another example of how the legions of PHBs running the telecom field (and the dot-com field, as I can testify from having worked far too long in said field) are trying to regulate everything in the support process. It's all about the Benjamins, and these people believe that by regulating, and restricting, and prohibiting everything-- to the point of "scripting" common tech support dialogs and replacing human operators with "automatic phone support systems", they can make more money.
They may be right, they may be wrong. In any case, I don't like it...
Honey, I shrunk the Cygwin
Basically any company with a big enough apparatus wants to control its public image, and it can't do that if its rank-and-file representatives are speaking when they're not spoken to.
Sprint PCS squelched one such representative who was participating in alt.cellular.sprintpcs. Over the four or five months she hung out in the newsgroup (as a publicly known SPCS employee, but not representing the company in any official capacity), she made a number of customers happy by offering solutions to their problems, or offering ways that they could get Customer Care to take care of their problems without calling the President's office or escalating to a supervisor. Her respect in the newsgroup was very high.
When she left the newsgroup, here is what she said.
It's telling. Especially telling is the 40+ responses she got.
Big companies can't deal with the Internet. It's too new, too public, and too uncontrolled. Despite all of our whining about corporate control and ICANN's UDRP and copyright and DMCA, the fact remains that the Internet scares the crap out of large multinationals.
And that won't change any time soon.
Remove the caps and hold to a mirror.
While I was working at AOL, I was constantly frustrated by the amount of misinformation that flew around about the company and things that were going on. And we're not even talking about company confidential things. Just stuff that the corporate communications group didn't have the time or inclination to work on. And it was only made worse by the fact that noone at AOL responded to correct or clear up the incorrect information. It was clearly a lack of communication between the industry and the company, and something that could easily be helped by just a little effort on the part of employees who participated in forums like Slashdot and wanted to help.
I tried to propose an internal volunteer group of people who wanted to do this. They'd be held to standards as to the correctness and appropriateness of the information they were providing to outside sources. And there would be peer review and recourse for people doing the wrong things. The idea was that AOL could significantly improve their image within the community by participating in it. Noone wanted to hear it. I wrote a formal proposal and passed it up the line. I don't think it even got past the director.
Corporations sit here and ask for your loyalty as employees. They offer bonuses, options, perks, and tons of other things to try to secure it. But they can't imagine that employees might actually want to do things to help the company in their spare time. And more than that, they don't want to release their tight grip on corporate communications and allow employees to help out with the forums they participated in. Until they realize that these things are harming them and find a better way to deal with employees than by saying "Don't talk to anyone unless we approve it first," they'll have the same old image problems.
The most we can do is continue to attempt to raise consciousness within the corporations we work for. Write proposals for new communications policies for employees. Leave copies of The Cluetrain Mainfesto on the VP's desk. Not much else we can do.
-Todd
"The details of my life are quite inconsequential..."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most technical support staffers already official representatives of the companies they work for? When I did technical support for computer manufacturers, the word 'representative' was in every title I held. So what's different now?
I think the real problem is that companies are afraid low-paid techs might take out some of their job frustrations in on-line forums, where the eyes of supervisors are usually absent. That, and the fact that by putting their help in writing on a public forum, these companies worry that their employees might reveal embarrassing service issues to a wider audience instead of just one customer at a time. Of course, if these same companies bothered to instill in their employees a sense of professionalism and loyalty, or God forbid maybe even pride in their work, I doubt there would be a problem with this.
The truth is, you represent any company you work for, regardless of if you're on the clock or not. Executives certainly realize this, but it's easy to blame low customer satisfaction scores on employees just trying to lend a hand to angry customer's they meet in other parts of the on-line community.
Sad really, just another example of PHB syndrome.
"Anything they do in theyre spare time in theyre lives is theyre business,"
RTFA. The main complaint of these ISPs is that these people (in their free time) say "I'm a tech support person for XYZ ISP and..." Their free time doesn't seem so free any more if they seem to be acting in their official capability as XYZ tech support. And if the information is harmful, does the poster get blamed or the employer they all but claim to represent?
And apparently, the above post is what happens when our communities save money on things like "teachers" and "textbooks."
Moderation totals that amuse me for one of my posts: Flamebait=1, Insightful=2, Funny=2, Overrated=1, Underrated=1
Besides the legal liability and misrepresentation that a "rogue tech" places on his employer, he also screws the tech support process for the user the next time he/she decides to call in for real help.
Succesful helpdesks, specifically in the level 1 & 2 enivronments, rely on scripts. These scripts are written so that an escalated ticket (one that level 1 cannot handle) arrives at the next level of tech support with that user environment "clean" - that is, level 2 assumes that level 1 has already made sure the user's environment is in a kind of "virgin" state.
When a higher level tech jumps in on a problem from level 1 (such as in these forums) they almost always prolong the length of the customer's next call to tech support because of user assumptions and level 1 ignorance of the support history. While some problems may be solved completely within the context of a forum, the majority of users will at some time in the future call tech support again. This raises costs and decreases the availability of support for the rest of the userbase.
BTW I talk with Optimum Online techs on the BBR forums and Yahoogroups all the time. They are careful not to engage in tech support out in the open, and speak only in an unofficial context. They're extremely helpful and hundreds of users appreciate their unofficial support everyday. If you want a model of how to keep your more advanced users happy while limiting liability and misrepresentation - check out the impromptu support model they've created there.
The key part you're missing is that these techs ARE doing this in their free time. It's not that they're being asked to visit these forums while off the clock. The only reason the company caught up to them, is because they identified themselves on a public forum as company employees. The company is worried about being asked for a paycheck, it simply doesn't fit along the company line of using answers to technical questions that have been reviewed and OK'd by management.
See what not having my replies passing management review does?
You remind me of my uncle. When he was 15, he needed a job, so he went to a construction sight, grabbed some tools, and got to work. This was completely on his free time. Later, he expected to get paid for it. Guess what happened! You're right! He didn't get paid for that time he worked there, but he was hired on the spot.
Slackware forever. Honestly, what else would you trust when it absolutely positively has to be stable, secure, and easy
As a former 1st tier tech support person I can empathize, however most companies delineate what is 'officially' supported and what is not. Most questions in forums are about things that techs are not 'allowed' to support officially during business hours. I can't say that I agree with the policy, but what Bell South is doing is protecting itself by demarking that which is 'oficial Bell South tech support' from what is users helping each other.
No, it's not right or fair. Unfortunately, in these days when people cannot recognize that hot coffee can burn and so sue the restaurant, Bell South is protecting itself from that sort of legislation.
But, no, it isn't right.
This reminds me of Mr. Tuttle, from Terry Gilliam's Brazil .
The company may not be held legally responsible, but imagine Mr. Irate User calling up screaming to talk to "YOUR SUPERVISOR, and THEIR SUPERVISOR, DAMMIT!" Most companies do what they can to please the end user. Even if the tech signs a waiver of responsibility, the perception on the part of the user is still that the company is responsible for the tech's actions, because, conceivably, the company trained said tech, and said tech was conceivably acting on behalf of the company.
Moderation totals that amuse me for one of my posts: Flamebait=1, Insightful=2, Funny=2, Overrated=1, Underrated=1
Please note, this is about providing OFFICIAL SUPPORT on remote forums... not about providing support in general.
And that makes sense.. because OFFICIAL SUPPORT should only go through OFFICIAL CHANNELS that the company is geared to deal with.
Employees are still free to offer support in forums.. just not in an official capacity.
If they really were doing this in an official capacity then it is a potential liability. However the company should recognize that such a willingness to help is an asset if the company simply sits them down and politely tells them not to do it "officially." I would imagine that such a spirit of helpfullness isn't easy to find. It's easy to pay people to be civil, it's not easy to find people willing to provide free help after hours. Firing them was a major strategic mistake if they were first time offenders.
Although I despise the current ISP mentality (let the customers burn to hell -- it's worse than getting sued), I partially understand their position.
The main problem is that some people just do not have the correct "attitude" and a disgruntled employee (rightfully or not) might cause severe damage to the "corporate" image.
OK, OK. You must be thinking now: "But not helping also damages their reputation!". And I couldn't agree more. I think they should "pre-screen" the employees that can do that, or employ some similar process.
I speak from past experience. In a previous job, we were in charge of fixing a broken Oracle Database (poor backup schemes and a disk failure -- you get the idea). The development team sent a programmer to "help us out". The management team on the branch office where the problem happened was already demanding answers (who? why? How can we avoid it?). We were kindly explaining everything to calm them down (a new backup policy, redundant hardware and all). Everything was going in the right direction.
Later on that day, in the middle of a big meeting to discuss the problem (with the aforementioned managers), Mr. Programmer does some quick queries to an yet to be fully restored database and says "Well, I say that this database is completely messed up -- I don't trust this data anymore...".
Needless to say we had to counter his false and invalid arguments with some facts. Took us some good hours and a lot of paperwork.
That is the danger of having someone without any tact representing the company or a group in a "delicate" situation.
I worked for an ISP that offered incredible customer service. We would take as much time as it took to make the customer happy. We gave advice on hardware and software not related to the online experience. We even offered to go to their house to fix connectivity problems, as a last resort.
In return, most of our customers remained loyal customers despite the fact that we charged a little more than most ISPs.
Unfortunately, this is not a good business model - we were never quite profitable. We ended up getting bought-out by a larger company. Though the current Tech Support is OK, it's nothing like the old days. Now, it's more like "help them, but do it as fast as you can - don't waste time".
How do you find the balance between great service and cost-containment?
our most valuable asset. Oh, by the way, you've proven too valuable so you're fired. Merry Christmas."
KFG
--no idea of europe or asia, etc, but in the US our government and our corporations are infested with peter principle managers. People who have gotten promoted to that position where they can't get promoted any longer, ie, they suck at that level but were probably great one level below. The deal is they don't get put back at the level of their competence.
funny story kinda. Once I was made city manager of this company. I hated it. I was great and quite happy at my previous position, acting as a project strawboss/hands on worker. Loved it. Was offered the management position, significant more money at salary so I tried it. It was terrible. So many times it was quicker for me-on the clients nickle-to just "do" a problem rather than try to explain to someone how to do it. I thought this was good customer service, granted, it dropped our billable hours slightly and occassionally, but the industry we were in was/is extremely competitive and it helps to retain established customers and keep them happy. The customers loved it, my bosses hated it, sometimes I would cost the company x amount small bucks on a particular job, but to me at least the brownie points seemed like a decent tradeoff. We lost zero customers under my watch and I got all good reviews and feedback. The bosses hated it ordered me to "manage" only which was a useless expenditure on a lot of smaller jobs, it meant standing around doing nothing a lot of the time. I hated it, prefer working to slacking. Anyway, after a couple of months I went in and demanded my old job back, and they did it for me but were amazed, I mean dumbfounded that anyone wouldn't just keep the superior paid position, it was such an alien concept to the "money is god" types. They had never even seen anyone do that. In short I demanded to not be a peter principle victim, or to participate in it.
Oh ya, the company basically collapsed a coupla years later, none of the bosses got along with each other, they kept losing customers, etc. I was right, they were wrong, but they were the owners. Ho hum I found other work same field easily.
How this applies to bell south and these other ISP's is-this is *probably* what's happening. Internal politics and back stabbing and greed lead to too many rank foul bosses in levels of decision making where they have no ability, no skill and cause problems. I mean, for real, harassing employees for trying to help customers on their own time and for free? ISP's don't charge for tech support as far as I know, seems to me these employees were saving the company money, and also creating more satisfied customers. And this is wrong?
There were many reasons the grand telephone monopoly was broken, customer complaints were right up there, and the baby bells are apparently infected with the same retarded mindset and lack of intelligence. Too many bosses in positions of incompetence.
Hope the fired techs start their own businesses (community WISPSs perhaps?), bell south doesn't deserve quality employees. Let them hire and keep on the clock drones and robots, lead by drones and robots, then let them go broke and collapse and be sold off for pennies on the dollar, let someone else give it a try. the techs actually got a good headsup of who they work for, now they can start looking for better quality humans to work for.
My ISP is Pipex (I'm in the UK) and from time to time even their Managing Director takes part in the forums on ADSLGuide.co.uk.
.....oh, alright then, I'm with them because they're cheap ;)
I like to see this sort of interaction from an ISP, and it's one of the reasons I'm with them.
But it's nice to see a large ISP with a healthy attitude towards their customers.
I got fired from Bellsouth almost a year ago for helping people. They didn't like my review, either. I was then unemployed for six months, all the time being bitched at by my parents for being 'stupid enough to say something bad about Bellsouth when I'm using their ISP'.
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
Surprise surprise!
Big providers don't care about their customers.
Techs are always being fired for being too helpful.
Their biggest "offense" is undermining the PHBs and
the process that prevents them from _properly_ doing their jobs.
"You spoony bard!" -Tellah
Apparently Qwest monitors DSLR for reviews, but on numerous occansions they had bitched at us for bad tech support reviews.
When I was on DSL, I and my friend closely monitored DSLR and tried to lend a helping hand.
I've also had sups encourage my activities on DSLR.
wow...
forget it.
[100% ISO 646 Compliant]
SVM, ERGO MONSTRO.
Let me nutshell it: The scripts don't work if you have a clue and only call when you have a REAL problem.
......".
I am a 'network engineer' as one of my collateral duties in my job and am quite comfortable troubleshooting network issues. It drives me around the bend when it takes me an hour to manage to reach someone who can understand 'the modem is synced but your gateway can't be pinged' rather than "OK, now click on the 'Control Panel' and choose 'Network Settings'. Now click on 'Advanced'. Now verify that your gateway address is
Useful phrase for clueful people: "Why, yes Mr. Level 1 Tech Support, I do run Windows ME." Know why? "I'm sorry, we can't help you unless you are running Windows or Macintosh." Not even if the problem is that the DSL is down because PacBell (hey - why not give them the free advertising that their 'Controlled Customer Interaction' deserved) screwed up and turned it off. The next time I have to reconfigure my home network so that a Windows machine can be plugged directly into the DSL modem because that is the only thing their script supports and they can't discover that THEY have an error until I do this - I am going to BILL them for wasting my time at $200 US dollars an hour.
Fucking scripts.
In the last 3 years I've had my DSL disconnected IN ERROR by PacBell 3 times. Each time it took 2 weeks to get reconnected and the first week was nothing but forcing my way up through the support levels to someone who DIDN'T have a script and COULD fix the damn problem. For the record: The problem is that I have a static IP address and their install people messed up the database entries saying I'm a customer after first messing up and assigning me dynamic addressing. So a year or so down the line when they have a router problem and rebuild all their routes from the database - I get dropped from the routing tables for 'not being a customer'. Two weeks. Three times. Three years. Average of over 10 phone calls lasting more than 30 minutes for each incident. All because the damn problem wasn't on their script.
And it probably didn't occur to you that the number of people calling tech support is significantly reduced when people have some useful forum for getting their problems resolved that doesn't involve getting put on hold for 20 minutes before you ever talk to a human. You can afford to spend 2X as long on a call if 3 calls weren't made as a consequence of a good support forum. People's problems are rarely unique. But by 'hiding' problems and solutions behind phone trees and scripts rather than placing them in open forums, you prevent people from finding the solutions for themselves. Instead you waste your company's time and money doing the exact same thing over and over and over 'By the Script'.
But, hey, no one ever got fired for going 'by the script.'
Hey, man, when the poster reveals to us all that they are actually a third-grader, I'll withdraw my criticism. ;)
Moderation totals that amuse me for one of my posts: Flamebait=1, Insightful=2, Funny=2, Overrated=1, Underrated=1
I am terminally amused by people's perception of me. I am also dyslexic, and an obsessive proofreader myself. ;) If I can do it, everyone else should be able to as well... or at least run their post through a spell-checker before posting.
Moderation totals that amuse me for one of my posts: Flamebait=1, Insightful=2, Funny=2, Overrated=1, Underrated=1
There is a major difference between ability and apathy, intelligence and diligence. I've learned it, and I firmly believe that if one wants to be taking seriously in a public arena, one should learn the magic of spellcheck and dictionary.com.
Moderation totals that amuse me for one of my posts: Flamebait=1, Insightful=2, Funny=2, Overrated=1, Underrated=1
I used to be like this: going out of my way to help people in my free time fix their mouse; reconnect to their ISP; trouble-shoot that broken coffee holder...
I don't do this any more, but that's not really relevant to the point I'd like to make. We live in a day where our government (yes, you Aussies and Euros, too; can't actually see what's happening in Asia but different story) is continuually seeking additional control over our personal lives. Most 1st world governments are largely financed by the people in some form of taxation, but controlled more by corporations within (or even outside) them. Think about that for a second.
So, we get something like 75 - 80 years to live; the first 25 we're busy getting educated, partying and otherwise not doing much productive, and then venture into a 20-year career helping some company with our expertise and best years, all the while making yet a little more money from our boss and paying yet a little more in taxes to our government to help subsidize it's financing for the corporations to use it to control its minions... Seeing a trend here?
I love good samaritanism, generosity and philanthropy just as much as the next dude, but there are other ways to spend our spare time. You don't have much left anyway, so go pick up a guitar, write some poetry, ride your mountain bike off a cliff, or throw frisbees at your mutt, but don't spend your limited leisure time on line helping other people try to figure out what your money-grubbing employer can't make work for them.
And, if you really need to, then go log in and break a digit, or two; just don't say you're representing your employer. They can sue you for helping them out! How cool is that?
just thinking aloud, here...
www.dedserius.com
VB != VisualBasic
Amen, brother (or sister, since you're Anonymous)!
Moderation totals that amuse me for one of my posts: Flamebait=1, Insightful=2, Funny=2, Overrated=1, Underrated=1
Have any of you actually gone to DSL reports and gotten help from message boards? You post a problem and you get 200 answers about "it's your CDROM drivers" and, "your MTU window size is too small!".
Most of these techs may be enthusiastic about their jobs and helping people, but they are also not very technically inclined to help the customers. How many of them are actually qualified to do anything on the ISPs systems? Does that tech know about ATM VPI/VCI addressing, am I supposed to be using 0/32 or something else? The difference between AAL3 and AAL5? What about PPP components and how laying PPP over Ethernet is such a bad idea? Can they tell you why they use PAP instead of CHAP authentication? Do they know half a DINK about RADIUS? Ask them what the frequency ranges are for CAP and DMT. Do they even know how IPv4 addressing works? Hell, ask them how many pairs DSL runs on and you may be surprised at the answers that you get. They couldn't lay out a static route on a Cisco if their jobs depended on it -- which is why they don't get exec, or even login access.
At first I was disappointed when I turned to DSL reports to see what their message boards looked like. Then I realized that it was a good thing. DSL Reports is a idiot magnet, keeping all of those screaming kids and adults away from... ME.
I am still against the big ISPs, telcos, and cable Internet providers. This was a good move but done in classic big-stupid teclo tradition. They are to blame for the fact that these customers need technical support in the first place. Your network operator is stupid from top to bottom.
go out of your way to help people. It will invariably turn and bite you in the ass. I used to work at Kinkos..and they reprimanded me for being too good..the reason being, if the customers started expecting the level of support that I gave them..they'd expect it all the time, and when I wasn't there, there wasn't a computer litterate person availible to help them and they'd get pissed..(more so than they would if they assumed that nobody knew enough to fix their problems)..but ending my rant, and getting back to the subject of liability, I can see the companies position..if the customers hard drive fails, while they're changing their IP address (even though the two events are completely unrelated) the customer may call up and blame the ISP for destroying their computer. Unless you (the employee) are doing everything acording to policy, you're going to be held responsible (they won't care if it's not your fault)
------ Work is so much easier when you don't
I've read most of the posts attached to this article and I must admit to feeling a bit sad when reading the posts defending this kind of behaviour. These posts all use words like 'corporation', 'disclosure', 'liability', 'licensed', 'business practice'. I will never accept any of these explanations no matter how many "legalese" words you throw in. Common sense must prevail. It should be noted that I have first hand experience with this as I work part-time with support, and that helping customers on our free time is pretty much the standard. I could even get paid for it, if I bothered to keep track of the time. But since it's five minutes here and five minutes there, I don't.
How small a thought it takes to fill a whole life
Sorry if I get modded down, but people should at least hear this, even if they don't agree.
In addition to the liability issues that would be redundant to bring up, there is the issue of identification.
You don't see people who work for Schwab or Fidelity offer "good sumeritan" advice online for financial services. These guys should know better even if they haven't signed a non-disclosure agreement.
Do you think your doctor's insurer for malpractice would like it if a doctor began diagnosing people outside the scope of his work environment?
These types of people can do what they do anonymously quite easily over the net, but yet they choose to identify themselves as currently associated. A pseudonym or anonymous claim of credibility as "formerly employed" or "technical consultant to" would be sufficient identification to those who would be consumers of his assistance.
I've seen it both ways, though. When I did tech support for an OEM (outsourced, though), one guy I know got led out of the building and fired immediately for posting opinions and disclosures on legitimate problems with certain system configurations and the unlawful actions the OEM was doing to stall and prevent customer returns on the defective product until the engineers came up with the solution. This info (even though unlawful) was considered to be proprietary and a breach of trade secrets according to the outsourced vendor. He got fired without due process and was unable to fight back because he was under the age of 18 at that time.
My bet is that there is more behind the scenes going on than this story reports and that because reporters are lazy, they got the sensational side of this in their back pocket and just let 'er rip.
Game: Player 'Donald J Trump' now has AI skill level 'experimental'.
A troll like you should know that people will still identify themselves as working for the company and will still post incorrect information and the company's reputation will still be harmed. What? You say that the company will point out that no one is alowed to tell anyone anything and can point to an official policy? Great, now I know not to trust the company ever again.
This kind of corporate censorship should outrage us all. There are laws against punishing whistle blowers, and that's what this ammounts to. These big dumb companies are worried that their employees will tell the truth and embarass them. Everyone whould know that it you want BellSouth's opinion, you should go to BellSouth's published information, that's why you think the policy will be effective against trolls, right? What the tech tells you is not a statement of company policy it's a statement of personal opinion. With a punishment policy like this in force, I know that none of those employees can give me a candid opinion, even when I meet them in person. These companies just themselves look like monolithic liars who punish people brave enough to tell you like it is. Way to go!
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
You might want to make note of the fact that karma is not redeemable; it cannot be exchanged for valuable prizes. There is no reason to begrudge it of anyone.
Instead of trying to drag this guy down-- who, even if nothing else, is really entertaining-- why don't you try posting something insightful or funny yourself?
I write in my journal
DSL Reports' SBC/Ameritech telco forums has a few techs helping in the forums in an OFFICIAL capacity.
I've suffered through SBC's DNS servers being setup incorrectly, a bad router, and a line problem, NONE of which I would have gotten solved without the help of the OFFICIAL tech support by SBC in those forums.
I literaly spent 5 days in phone queues and Tier 1 hell to try and confirm and get fixed reverse DNS problems with NO luck. IT was only after the official tech in the forums looked into the issues or made calls that I got things fixed.
It is clear the forums/usenet support is more efficient than phone suppport in most case IMHO.
Did I e-mail the web master about this? Not just no, but HELL NO!
At best, they would ignore the advice, and at worst, I could have a "friendly" visit from the FBI to explain my "hacking" activities in relation to this bank site. No thank you! I won't open an account there now because (without going any deeper than what my web browser shows when I visit the site) their security is a joke.
At least I won't have anything to explain to the FBI.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
I can see two reasons why a company would have a problem with there tech's freely giving away technical advise...
The first reason... The most obvious (well to me anyway)... The less people who get there problems answered freely over the internet the more money the corporations will make if they charge for tech support. In my eyes... this is pulling at hairs. I can't see any reason why a product cannot get free technical support. You did buy the product didn't you? Now I only briefly read the article but I caught the gist of it right away. If companies are legally allowed to fire people for providing free tech support maybe the consumers (us) should take a second look at what were buying. If a product is not designed to break...why should they care?
Here is the other view... Every time someone helps out an end user and says that they are from "xyz" company...they then represent that company... If a tech gives bad advise the company could be liable for what the tech said... Although this is a valid view...I have a feeling this would be used more as a scapegoat then anything else.
Bottom line:
No product is perfect...BUT if the company that makes the product starts to limit the amount of free help there customers are able to get...and they start charging high prices for tech support...take a second look at the companies reputation and the product you are buying...
You know the saying...
That might have been OK 40 years ago, but not any more. There's safety regulations and things like public liability to worry about. If an 'informal' worker hurts themselves or another worker, or damages property (EG digs up fiber) that can cost the company millions. The company will be held responsible, but won't be covered by ACC or public liability insurance or whatever you have in your country.
The same applies to some extent for technical support. If I say I work for xyzzy (even if I don't!) then people are going to assume I know what I'm talking about at least as far as xyzzy's service is concerned, even if I explicitly say I'm not currently answering in an official capacity. I'm exploiting (and if I screw up, damaging..) xyzzy's reputation.
The simple answer (at least for web forums) is to log on under a pseudonym and don't say who you work for. Build your own reputation. The company won't know who you are so they can't gag you. The customer has no idea who you are IRL or who you work for, so they can't sue anyone. Everyone's happy.
455fe10422ca29c4933f95052b792ab2
This post was supposed to go here.
-- MarkusQ
- People will come to expect support via that forum. What happens when the employee tires of spending his own time providing support there? He stops, and then the company gets a reputation in the forum of not providing good tech support!
If the employee just wants to be nice, and help people out that they see having trouble in a forum they are reading for their own enjoyment, they should simply not mention where they work. Help out as an unusually knowledgable consumer.I work for an Internet company. I _never_ link myself to that company. I'm sure many others could say the same.
The main reasons for me: Job secruity and a Professional projection of myself and my company.
When I get home, I drink beer, sniff glue, etc. If I were to post to the boards I would probably offer some good help. Then the beer starts to kick in (and the glue, oh boy!) I bet my own level of control and professionalism would begin to disappear. (and if I were in my physical work building they would know)
How many times have you seen post where some "tech guy" or such says, well you know what?: Customers are Idiots, Aholes, etc? I have seen this. How many times have you gone to work the next day and said to yourself, 'shit I really should not have sent that email last night...' because you were half in the bag when you sent it.
It reminds me of the guy who posted on the Ciruit City thing, saying "we don't need customer's like that" (the ones who return a lot of goods). While he may have posted a fact about the company he still sounded like a jerk b/c the companies public position probably is that "the customer is always right". Now the real position is out in the open, for good or bad.
Companies want to present themselves in a professional way. People acting as rogue representative of a company after hours is a bad thing.
But don't get me totally wrong, it took me a while to get to this point (beer, glue, etc) and if I go out for a beer I wear work logos and all (shirts, hats, etc).
If you have so much energy to devote to helping others do it at work. Teach the other techs a thing or two, improve the 'system' don't operate out side of it.
All that being said, if you still want to help out on your own time, don't claim to be an employee of 'the company' and don't reveal the 'secrets' when you do so.
Silly Rabbit: tricks are for kids.
I used to work for ClientLogic, who along with Compaq and TAG (The Answer Group), handled all of the tech support for Bellsouth FastAccess (DSL). The DNS entry for BBR/DSL Reports had been removed so that we couldn't get to their site (unless we used the IP address...). We were told we weren't allowed to post anything related to Bellsouth FastAccess on BBR at all.
Of course we were also told to lie to our customers and tell them that we worked for BellSouth. We were told not to schedule installer/techs earlier than 3-4 days unless the customer was angry, then we could send one out in 24 hrs. We also had the usual stuff like not recommending any brands over others.
Promotions were dependent not on whether we went above and beyond, but if we could get the customer off the phone in a certain amount of time. Our target was 16 minutes total handle time including our opening spiel and verification (1-2 minutes) and ACW (after call work, 1 min) of entering notes about the call. If you averaged about 16 minutes you were meeting the requirement, but you should be about 12 minutes to be "good". Anyone remember OfficeSpace's "flair"?
Half the tech support calls I took were people complaining because the previous agent told them to download new drivers from the website using dialup since they were calling because their DSL was out.
We were supposed to be there to help people, but our "metrics" were about how fast we handled the call and whether we mentioned the "Connection Manager" which didn't actually manage your connection, it was basically spyware and slowly evolved into being able to backup/restore your internet settings... but not drivers etc where we really needed it, and it didn't make a connection to FastAccess like all the customers thought.
Or rather a friend of mine, he use to work at what most people I know, call "Tech Support Hell," Convergy, they do outsourceing for a whole bunch of people, you can see it all on their website, anyways he posted a few things on (tho got a little carried away, prolly while drunk) and ended up getting himself canned (hence the reason he started posting on how to beat warrenty system. He's lucky he didn't get sued, he still claims its not him. But they threated him, fired him, and said if he ever said anything about it again they'd "sue him into poverty" they even made him sign some lame ass paper (to which he has a copy of) that basically says if he doesn't say anything, they won't sue, if he does they have the right to garnish his current wages for an unspecified amount of damages (he was 18 at the time which is the only reason I could think that he would even sign such a paper)
If you work for a company where they care more about their image and liability than about how good your technical contribution is and how well you are helping the customer, it's time you got up and left, because it's clearly run by lawyers and image makers instead of by someone that does anything useful.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
What if these guys are identifying themselves as employees and they get out of line, or give advice that causes damage ? Granted the chances of that happening are slim, but that is how a corporate lawyer thinks. Another possibilty is a former employee with a score to settle posing as a support person....
It is really sad that it comes to this, when in reality I've gotten help from covad tech's on DSLREPORTS before, and several times I've gotten help with advanced router functions from some really sharp people there...
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
Part of the reason I was hired to work for my existing employer is because I was known on the Internet for providing assistance with Check Point FireWall-1, maintaining an FAQ page on the subject as well. I did it on the "side" in addition to my day job.
My own personal "rule" that I've always maintained is to not disclose who I work for in online forums. This means using my personal email account for posting message as well as never making named references to my employer. That isn't to say some people don't know where I work (my customers are out there, after all), but purely by reading my activity in the online forum, it isn't obvious.
Because of where I work, there are some conversations I simply won't get involved with, as by doing so, I would reveal where I work. That's a tradeoff I'm willing to live with.
-- PhoneBoy
The views expressed herein are not necessarily those of anyone, including the poster.
What does it say about a company that allows paid on-staff nitwits free reign to say any stupid thing they want to.
It says that the company is in the business of hiring incompetents to save money, and then finds that they have have got exactly what they paid for.
A competent professional will in general not work (for long, anyway) under gagging orders, and will for the most part provide good support. But good support is not always comfortable for those "in control", because it often exposes the weaknesses created by management and other handwavers. Tough. Ultimately it's the company's senior people that have created its problems, and blaming the low-paid first-line support staff is the height of arrogance and misdirection of blame.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
I think that's it. It's about control and preventing confidential or embarassing info from being spread to the public. In a public forum like a newsgroup or message board all statements from a representative of a company are scrutinized to a degree that won't happen in a one-to-one support call. Any big corporation is like that. All communications with the public goes through PR talking heads. Anything else is against policy.