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Apple Accuses Worker of Leaks

booboothefoo writes "A former Apple Computer contract worker in Sacramento has been slapped with both civil and criminal charges for allegedly leaking Apple's trade secrets on the Internet." I think the real message here is "don't trust contractors." Or maybe "rumor sites are evil." Or maybe "Setec Astronomy."

158 of 373 comments (clear)

  1. Setec Astronomy by DarkRyder · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Props on the 'Sneakers' reference. What a great movie. I'm pretty sure I've got it in my DVD library - I'll have to dig it up and watch it tonight.

    --
    Unless, of course, scissors can't cut rock...
    1. Re:Setec Astronomy by tmhsiao · · Score: 5, Funny

      -I'd like Peace on Earth, Good will toward Men
      -We're the United States Government. We don't do that.

      --
      "My God...It's full of ads!" -Fry, about the Internet, Futurama
    2. Re:Setec Astronomy by Bonker · · Score: 4, Informative

      What a great movie. It dealt with information security before most people understood what it was... and explained digitial encryption in way most people could understand.

      Whistler: Cryptography systems are based on math problems so complex that they can't be solved without a key.

      They also explained why being able to easily solve just one of those problems would render all encryption based on the same problem (Long factorials, anyone?) moot. We're coming up against this with Quantum technology. While it will provide encryption that can't be broken, all previous encryption will be pretty easily brute-forced with even a relatively weak quantum computer.

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    3. Re:Setec Astronomy by DarkEdgeX · · Score: 2

      Nod, also love that movie. =) Glad I'm not alone. Slashdot doesn't allow you to post within X number of seconds of hitting reply, so it erased my original reply, and I'm too lazy to retype the whole god damn mess, so this will have to do for conveying my feelings. BLAH Slashdot!

      --
      All I know about Bush is I had a good job when Clinton was president.
    4. Re:Setec Astronomy by mu_wtfo · · Score: 4, Informative

      Setec Astronomy:
      "cooty's rat semen"
      "too many secrets"

      --
      If all the world's a stage, anyone who says they want better lighting spends far too much time in a dark theatre.
    5. Re:Setec Astronomy by dasmegabyte · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yes. Liking a movie gets you +1 if it was referenced and idiots like me might not get the reference. Bitching about that +1 gets a -1. Now instead of 1 mod point being destroyed on this silliness, we get 2.

      Oh, and don't bother modding this as OT...i'm taking -1 already.

      --
      Hey freaks: now you're ju
    6. Re:Setec Astronomy by tps12 · · Score: 2

      While it may seem frustrating, remember that the 2 minute "time out," like its analogue in kindy-garden, plays an important role in protecting you from all kinds of dastardly things. Thanks to the 2 minute rule, evil trolls are limited to 24 * 60 / 2 = 720 posts a day, an amount easily managed by the fleet of dedicated moderators.

      --

      Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
    7. Re:Setec Astronomy by Alsee · · Score: 2

      quantum computing is terrifying.

      It is only "terrifying" if the only thing you care about is "protecting" current encryption methods. In my opinion the potential of quantum computing is absolutely AWESOME. As in awe inspiring. It allows us to solve problems we can't even begin to tackle with normal computers. If you ask ANY question in just the right way a quantum computer becomes a magic box that tests every concievable answer at the same time and spits out the right answer.

      What are the fundamental physical laws of the universe?

      How do we get cheap fusion energy to work?

      What is strongest material it is possible make? The lightest? The strongest magneticly? Highest temerature superconducter?

      That is the design of the most powerful computer it is possible to make?

      What molecule (drug) will best cure some disease?

      As I said, if you have a quantum computer it is all about figuring out exactly the right way to ASK the question (which can be a very hard problem in itself). If you do figure out the right way to ask the question then quantum computer checks the entire universe for an answer, and gives it to you.

      Hominids by Robert Sawyer has an interesting take on what can happen should something go wrong with a quantum computer.

      I read a portion of that book when it was published in Analog magazine. The "problem" you are reffering to is entirely fictitious. In the story they "discovered" new physics that simply is not real.

      If your point is that quantum computers are going to cause a breakdown between different universes then that is as silly as saying we shouldn't send probes to Europa because the 2001 monolith forbids it.

      Now, if you want to say that any new technology may lead to unexected discoveries, fine. The people who first developed electricity had no idea that some day there would be microwave ovens and it would be deadly to put your head inside one.

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      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    8. Re:Setec Astronomy by Alsee · · Score: 2

      I posted the "cooty rat semen" anagram 33 minutes before mu did - I get modded down for being offtopic, he gets modded +1.

      Not trying to claim "first post" on a f*cking anagram (that I didn't even come up with), just pointing out that some 'dot moderator is a jackass.


      Actually the moderation was fine.

      Your post says nothing but "Don't you mean 'cooty rat semen'?". Your post was effectively "offtopic" to all of the people who didn't happen see the movie and get catch the refference. That means it was offtopic for most readers. They gained nothing from it.

      The post that got modded up WAS +4 informative. It explained exactly what Setec Astronomy meant. I bet it will hit +5 informative.

      Feel free to post "inside jokes", but don't bitch and moan when people who aren't in on the joke mod it down. Either bring people in on the joke and get modded up, or leave them out in the cold and get modded down.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  2. Darwin at Work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I mean, the guy posted schematics, for god's sake. Did he honestly think they wouldn't figure out where those came from?

  3. Not that it hurt anything by JHromadka · · Score: 3, Interesting

    When the pics were posted, most people said "No way!" and came up with a bunch of reasons for the pics to be fake... then it turned out they were real. I doubt there were any lost sales from the knowledge, as everyone was expecting PowerMac updates of some type anyway.

    --
    "The objective of securing the safety of Americans from crime and terror has been achieved." -- John Ashcroft
    1. Re:Not that it hurt anything by ipjohnson · · Score: 5, Insightful

      He broke an NDA point blank, it doesn't matter if it hurt sales or not.

      I have no simpathy for him he signed it, he knew what he was donig when he broke it. Why do you feel it makes a difference if sales where hurt?

    2. Re:Not that it hurt anything by shadow303 · · Score: 2

      I agree, he deserves what he gets. The only relevance to the hurt sales point is that it could affect the damages figure when they decide how much to sue him for.

      --
      I've got a mind like a steel trap - it's got an animal's foot stuck in it.
    3. Re:Not that it hurt anything by Alyeska · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Here's how it hurts.

      You're developing a product in a highly competitive market. That means you're paying employees and contractors money for, say, a year without any payback. That research is an investment.

      The first damage comes when your leak gives your innovations away to your competitors. All that work, all that research, and your competitors can figure out your ideas for free, possibly even beat you to the marketplace.

      But then theres more damaage: by leaking proprietary information, he damages the relationships between contractors and employers. Like the post says, "Don't trust contractors."

    4. Re:Not that it hurt anything by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 2, Funny
      (Not stating views...just making humorous reference to 2000 campaigns.)

      Something must have gone wrong with your post then, as Slashdot seems to have left out the humorous part.

    5. Re:Not that it hurt anything by mmol_6453 · · Score: 2

      Yeah. Last I heard, he was on a committee regarding its design.

      --
      What's this Submit thingy do?
    6. Re:Not that it hurt anything by DAldredge · · Score: 2

      What else does "I took the initiative in creating the Internet" mean? Please do tell.

      "GORE: Well, I will be offering - I'll be offering my vision when my campaign begins. And it will be comprehensive and sweeping. And I hope that it will be compelling enough to draw people toward it. I feel that it will be.

      But it will emerge from my dialogue with the American people. I've traveled to every part of this country during the last six years. During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country's economic growth and environmental protection, improvements in our educational system. "

  4. or maybe the message is have some ethics? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful
    why is it up to the employer to not trust it's employees (contractors)?

    why can't employees (especially so-called "professionals") have some ethics and do simple things like NOT STEAL FROM THEIR EMPLOYERS?

    1. Re:or maybe the message is have some ethics? by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 4, Insightful

      it's called being paid fairly

      The wonderful thing about the word "fair" is that the opposing parties on any issue will have radically different ideas of what it means.

      It is also the word that the parent of a six-year-old hates most. If I had a nickel for every time I've cringed at, "But it's not fair!" I wouldn't have to work for a living.

      In other words, my friend, quit your whining.

      why cant companies do something simple like NOT STEAL FROM THEIR EMPLOYEES?

      If Slashdot ever posts an article about an employer stealing from an employee, you can post this comment again. For now, though, I think we should all just stick to the subject at hand. Okay? Thanks.

      --

      I write in my journal
    2. Re:or maybe the message is have some ethics? by N3WBI3 · · Score: 2

      The wonderful thing about freedom is being able to quit your job and go somewhere they are not 'stealing from you'. I fell I am being treated well by my employer. I am making far more than most people who are 2 years out of school with a 4 year degree.

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    3. Re:or maybe the message is have some ethics? by Mahrin+Skel · · Score: 4, Insightful
      The message is that if you don't show any loyalty to your employees (if, for example, you employ them "at whim" through a temp agency, without benefits or job security) you shouldn't expect them to show any loyalty in return.

      Way back once upon a time, I worked a fab line as a "contractor", it royally sucked. "Night and fog" atmosphere, people you work with would just stop showing up, and getting curious about why was a good way to follow them out the door.

      --Dave

    4. Re:or maybe the message is have some ethics? by derch · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The contractor knew what he was getting into when he signed the contract. The contract should've said $X for Y hours of work or something to that effect. If the contractor didn't like it, he didn't have to sign it.

      If the contractor took the job because that was the only job offer and he has no qualifications to work in another field, then tough luck. Shit happens when the economy is bad - that doesn't give you carte blanche to do what you want and break contracts.

    5. Re:or maybe the message is have some ethics? by MoneyT · · Score: 2

      While I agree that Apple is fully in it's rights to go after this guy, there was a story on slashdot a little while back about a guy who's former employer sued him for a product which he designed on his free time while working for the company.

      --
      T Money
      World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
    6. Re:or maybe the message is have some ethics? by alexjohns · · Score: 2
      If I had a nickel for every time I've cringed at, "But it's not fair!" I wouldn't have to work for a living.
      Either you have a ridiculously low cost of living or you hold an insane number of conversations with very whiny people. Or, you have a looped recording that you play all day.

      Or you're still living with your parents.

  5. Not quite by bconway · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think the real message here is "don't trust contractors." Or maybe "rumor sites are evil." Or maybe "Setec Astronomy."

    That's funny, the message I took away from it was that if you violate a contract, the company has the right to, and often will, sue you.

    --
    Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru?
    1. Re:Not quite by GeckoFood · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Exactly! From the article, here is a statement to further your point along:

      Apple says an employment agreement that Lopez signed with Volt's Sacramento office prohibited him from divulging confidential information.

      This is eactly what these agreements are for -- when you have some dumbass who decides to go against a contractual agreement, the nondisclosure is the company's legal route of recourse.

      No tears shed for this guy. I hope they take him to the cleaners.

      --
      Be excellent to each other. And... PARTY ON, DUDES!
    2. Re:Not quite by Cheese+Cracker · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The only way I would have any sympathy for this guy would be if it was not made clear to him what was and was not confidential data.

      He must be pretty much behind the 8-ball if he doesn't understand that schematics and other details regarding upcoming products are confidential until the company has launched it. (some details might still be confidential after the launch...) If he's not sure, why not ask before going ahead on posting it?

    3. Re:Not quite by tchuladdiass · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That's why most large companies have, as part of their security policy, a documentation labeling policy. It is up to the document originator to properly lable such documents (such as, general use, internal use, confidential, trade secret, etc.). Then there is a correlating policy on how such documents are to be handled.

  6. Or the moral is... by Tidan · · Score: 2, Insightful

    don't leak trade secrets. Duh.

    --
    free ipod? yeah.
  7. Heh, Sneakers reference. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    "Setec Astronomy" = anagram("Too Many Secrets");

    1. Re:Heh, Sneakers reference. by Capt.+DrunkenBum · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You asked for karma... You broke the unwritten law.

      No karma for you!

      --

      Not everyone deserves a 320i

    2. Re:Heh, Sneakers reference. by gol64738 · · Score: 2

      are you sure about that?

      i thought Setec Astronomy was an anagram for Cootys Rat Semen

    3. Re:Heh, Sneakers reference. by Dr.+Manhattan · · Score: 3, Funny
      Too bad they cheated in the credits. Many of the anagrams were wrong. For example, a bit of thought shows that "Universal Studios" could not be rearranged to "A Turnip Cures Elvis". It adds "p" and "c" and removes "d", for starters.

      Just for fun, my favorite anagram: "electrical engineering" to "rectilinear negligence".

      --
      PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
    4. Re:Heh, Sneakers reference. by zaren · · Score: 2

      Ooh, what an idea!

      From now on, when I'm asked to provide information for access to a free site or somesuch, I'll say I'm John Tuttle from Setec Astronomy :)

      We know all about Setec, but I'll leave Tuttle as an exercise for the class. :D

      --
      Come to the University of Mars! Classes starting soon!
    5. Re:Heh, Sneakers reference. by Otto · · Score: 2

      Too bad they cheated in the credits. Many of the anagrams were wrong. For example, a bit of thought shows that "Universal Studios" could not be rearranged to "A Turnip Cures Elvis". It adds "p" and "c" and removes "d", for starters.

      Good thing they rearranged the letters of "A Turnip Cures Elvis" into "Universal PICTURES" instead. :p

      --
      - Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
    6. Re:Heh, Sneakers reference. by tbone1 · · Score: 2
      John Tuttle was the hero in Brazil, I believe. I haven't seen the movie in years, so I may well be as wrong as a union leader's claims.

      --

      The Independent: Reverend Spooner Arrested in Friar Tuck Incident - ISIHAC, Historical Headlines
  8. So? by 9Numbernine9 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Employee signs NDA. Employee breaks NDA. Employer gets mad. This is news?

    --
    Illegitimi non Carborundum.
    1. Re:So? by Apathy+costs+bills · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Employee signs NDA. Employee breaks NDA. Employer gets mad. This is news?

      In the case of Apple Computer, yes, it is news. Remember that Wozniak was one of the founders, and he is a famous phone phreak, a blue box-er like Captain Crunch. He was hacking Ma Bell and hiding from the Feds back in the day.

      Every corporation has a corporate culture. When was the last time you saw Microsoft publicly attacking it's one of its developers for 'leaking secrets'? It happens, but Apple has a disturbing history of jealously pursuing it's employees. The corporate culture of Apple has transitioned from the hackers' culture of Woz to a Culture of Fear. If you are a developer at Apple, high profile anti-employee actions like this send a message: secrecy first, collaboration second.

      It's a very interesting transition. I'm not making a value judgement about, other than to say yes, it is News for Nerds.
      --
      Kill Trolls Dead. Here's
    2. Re:So? by mbbac · · Score: 2, Funny

      Microsoft doesn't sue people, they whack them.

      --

      mbbac

    3. Re:So? by sweetooth · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This has nothing to do with collaboration or corporate culture, nor should it scare any of Apples employees. If you go to work for any company and you then turn around and violate your contract you shouldn't be surprised in the least when they come after you with thier lawyers. If this was a developer talking about the latest technologies on a public mailing list there is a decent chance Apple wouldn't need to puruse it as such. In this case you have someone providing information that should not have been discussed outside of Apples doors before Apple gave the go ahead.

      IMO, if this was Apple going after an employee going after some developer for discussing information in a forum publicly without attempting to hide his identity, and not giving away "trade secrets", then it would be news. This is a corporation following up on the terms of a contract, nothing more.

    4. Re:So? by margaret · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you are a developer at Apple, high profile anti-employee actions like this send a message: secrecy first, collaboration second.

      This has nothing to do with collaboration. The guy was leaking info to a rumors site about an upcoming product. He wasn't seeking input from the community about how to make it better. It probably just made him feel cool.

    5. Re:So? by Lars+T. · · Score: 2

      If you could point to one case where Wozniak (or Jobs) violated a NDA? And what does blue-boxing have to do with a NDA?

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    6. Re:So? by Cyno · · Score: 2

      But is that grounds for termination and legal action? How would you feel if you were in his shoes? Most of us are asked to sign NDAs just to go to work with these large corps. Then when he leaks a few details about what capabilities their new products might have (harmless in my opinion) they make an example out of him. I'm sure I wouldn't want to work for Apple, or any company that cares more about money than the products they produce, really.

    7. Re:So? by Alsee · · Score: 2

      I beleive he was reffering to the corporate culture of requiring employees to sign contracts like that. Expecially when the "trade secret" is information they PLAN to release to the public.

      So yes, the guy probably violated the contract. They can probaly nail him in court. The point is that Apple is being an ass for doing it. Calling the information a "trade secret" sounds like a stretch. I haven't seen what info he leaked, but was it any more secret than saying "the case will be blue"? The instant it hits the stores it isn't going to be very secret.

      Sounds like the marketdroids getting pissy about their big "unveiling ceremony".

      They can win in court, but they can lose in public oppinion and they can lose by treating their employees as the enemy.

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      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    8. Re:So? by sweetooth · · Score: 2

      It doesn't matter if the information will become public, and commenting without reading the article makes you the ass. He "posted schematics and other details of a new model G4 PowerMac." Now, that information will be public, but releasing that information early can potentially damage sales because your competitors know what you are going to be doing, your customers get partial info etc.

      Even if the public will know about it at some point, this was a trade secret and he violated a contract. End of story. Apple aren't being asses, they are protecting themselves as any company would.

    9. Re:So? by Alsee · · Score: 2

      commenting without reading the article makes you the ass.

      Perhaps assuming I didn't read the article makes you the ass. Not that I consider calling you an ass to be a particularly productive argument.

      He "posted schematics and other details of a new model G4 PowerMac."

      Perhaps when I said I haven't seen what info he leaked you assumed I didn't know that. I did, but I still haven't seen the info.

      I then asked was it any more secret than saying "the case will be blue"? The fact that it was "schematics and other details" doesn't mean it's any more secret than the color of the case.

      releasing that information early can potentially damage sales because your competitors know what you are going to be doing, your customers get partial info etc.

      Oh yes, if the customer finds out about the product they wont buy it! Chuckle.

      As for competitors, please inform me who you are reffering to? Mac tends to be a market to itself. The closest competitor I see is the X86 PC market. I'm a bit sceptical that Gateway is about to use the info to steal away Apple customers. But, as I said I haven't seen the actual info.

      he violated a contract. End of story.

      [snip]gratuitious insult[/snip]
      Did you notice where I said "guy probably violated the contract. They can probaly nail him in court."? I then said "The point is that Apple is being an ass for doing it". Translation: I and several other posters are discussing an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT STORY. Have you seen anyone arguing that the court shouldn't rule against him? If so I missed it.

      The "story" of violating a contract is not ended until the court comes in with a verdict.

      The "story" of weather or not Apple was being an ass for the contract in the first place, and persuing it in court is far from settled.

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      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    10. Re:So? by sweetooth · · Score: 2

      When you stated you didn't see what he leaked I believed you meant what type of info, which lead me to believe you hadn't read the article. Sorry bout that.

      With many Mac users you could take a piece of crap and put an apple logo on it and they would buy it. That's not the case with most products. When companies have detailed specs, rollout plans, etc; and someone lets slip some of that information you have uninformed customers. Uninformed customers can be bad news for the Company as they make decisions or assumptions about what the release product will be like. This is bad for thier business. In the case of designs it allows competitors to see what is being done. While Apple may not have a huge amount of market share they are a competitor with any PC manufacturer. They aren't the PC manufacturers biggest concern, but they are still competition.

      You are correct that we won't have a definate answer on if this person violated a contract or not until the end of the trial, but at this point it certainly appears that way.

      I've read the forums and I see posts going both ways. He broke the contract and the court should rule against him, or he shouldn't have been asked to sign such a horrible contract in the first place.

      Why shouldn't he be asked to sign a contract like this? Since he did sign the contract why shouldn't Apple enforce it? If we were talking about a non compete that stipulated the individual couldn't work in his field of choice for 6 months or more I think that would be unacceptable, but that isn't what we are talking about. We are talking about a non disclosure. It is reasonable to expect to have to sign a non disclosure agreement when working for any company. I see non disclosures all the time. Any time a piece of pre release hardware comes out and we get to play with it I have to sign a non disclosure agreement. Any time I go visit one of our clients locations I have to sign a non disclosure agreement. The agreement protects the company from any damages that may occur from information getting out before the company is ready for it to. To protect intellectual property until the product is ready for market. This is perfectly reasonable. This person violated whatever contract it is he signed (according to Apple), if Apple doesn't go after him in some way they set an example that it is ok to leak information. It is similar to trademark law. If you don't go after trademark violaters you lose the ability to do so later.

      I think companies abuse thier power a lot, and I think they buy laws when it's convenient for them. I don't like it, but I believe it to be true. However, I also believe that companies have a right to protect thier business. If that means attempting to settle with an contract breaker than so be it. That happens all the time. If a settlment can't be reached then I would fully expect to see the company take the issue to court. There is too little information available to know if Apple tried to settle this or not, but at this point I have to believe that takeing the matter to court is the proper way to proceed. The individual broke the rules he agreed to and now he faces the consequences. If he didn't want to abide by the rules he shouldn't have signed the contract. If you don't think companies should ask thier employees to sign these types of contracts then you should stop purchasing just about everything because MOST (not all) companies have NDAs as standard paperwork for all new employees.

    11. Re:So? by Alsee · · Score: 2

      However, I also believe that companies have a right to protect thier business

      I wasn't objecting to all contracts. The following section of the article caught my attention...

      Apple is more secretive than most companies about new products, especially approaching trade shows such as the upcoming Macworld, where Steve Jobs, the company chairman, typically unveils new products."

      In the weeks leading up to the trade shows, online sites such as MacRumors hum with speculation about new Apple products. And Jobs, a consummate showman, generally whips attendees into a frenzy as he unveils the latest Apple gadgets...

      In that context they want to have that surprise element," because posting those secrets early dilutes the impact, Bajarin said.


      *If* this is about nothing more that than putting on a show then it strikes me as a real stretch of the meaning of "trade secret". IMO that would make it rather slimy.

      -

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      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    12. Re:So? by lemkebeth · · Score: 2

      You wrote:

      Every corporation has a corporate culture. When was the last time you saw Microsoft publicly attacking it's one of its developers for 'leaking secrets'? It happens, but Apple has a disturbing history of jealously pursuing it's employees. The corporate culture of Apple has transitioned from the hackers' culture of Woz to a Culture of Fear. If you are a developer at Apple, high profile anti-employee actions like this send a message: secrecy first, collaboration second.

      You don't know Apple well do you?

      Apple has one of the most open corporate cultures out there. They even have policies about discrimination against Transsexuals.

      This has nothing to do with corporate culture but, with the guy in question not adhering to the NDA he signed. This is an ethical and legal issue.

  9. Iron Fist by insensitive_clod · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Apple really tries to control any media exposure to its products with an iron fist.. I'm still kinda wondering if Time Canada (I think that's who leaked the new iMac) every felt Steve's wrath.

    1. Re:Iron Fist by sql*kitten · · Score: 2

      Apple really tries to control any media exposure to its products with an iron fist.. I'm still kinda wondering if Time Canada (I think that's who leaked the new iMac) every felt Steve's wrath.

      I very much doubt it. Publishing is one of Apple's core markets, maybe their most valuable, and the only one in which they hold a real lead. The last thing Apple would want to do is piss off one of the largest content producers and distributors on Earth.

  10. In the interest of free information by Exmet+Paff+Daxx · · Score: 5, Funny
    It's best that I disclose these trade secrets here on Slashdot, where they won't be deleted. Information longs to be free.

    • 'Think Different' means 'sue your employees'
    • 'Switch' is actually a metaphor for the one button mouse
    • Make sure everything is aerodynamic
    • Make sure everything is shiny
    • Industry standards are for idiots
    • People like paying twice as much
    • One button mouse masterstroke to be followed by one button keyboard
    • Quicktime will save us
    • If it's not from Berkley, it's CRAP
    --
    If guns kill people, then CmdrTaco's keyboard misspells words.
    1. Re:In the interest of free information by saider · · Score: 5, Funny

      One button mouse masterstroke to be followed by one button keyboard

      Joe: What does the one button do?

      Salesman : Whoa! I'm getting in over my head. Here's the number for technical support.

      --


      Remember, You are unique...just like everyone else.
    2. Re:In the interest of free information by Alex+Thorpe · · Score: 2

      "Industry standards are for idiots"

      No, that's Microsoft, and their drive to make everyone only use standards that they own. Apple was very proprietary in the old days(ADB, NuBus, round serial ports, AppleTalk), but no more.

      "People like paying twice as much"

      More like "some people will pay more for quality. The rest, we can't satisfy without losing money". Unless you think they should compete with Dell on Dell's own strengths?

      --
      "Common Sense Ain't" -Unknown
    3. Re:In the interest of free information by Lars+T. · · Score: 2
      Industry standards are for idiots

      So where does this leave the "Macs are for idiots" argument?

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    4. Re: In the interest of free information by jdreed1024 · · Score: 2
      Industry standards are for idiots

      Damn straight. Those pesky Apple Engineers, using FireWire (IEEE 1394), PCI, USB, Ethernet, ATA/IDE, ATAPI. What were they thinking?? Certainly no other computers use those standards.

      *sigh*
      If it insults GNU/Linux, it's a troll.

      If it insults Apple and is factually incorrect, it's +5, Funny.

      Well, at least there are no double standards on /.

      --
      There is no sig, there is only Zuul.
    5. Re:In the interest of free information by Alsee · · Score: 3, Funny

      * One button mouse masterstroke to be followed by one button keyboard

      I take it that would be the "any key"?

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  11. How do they prove this? by vasqzr · · Score: 2



    Think of HOW MANY people see Apple's products before they hit the stores/web

    What kind of evidence do they have?

    1. Re:How do they prove this? by mithras+the+prophet · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's pretty open-and-shut.

      He took digital photographs of the new motherboard and case (and his workshop surrounding it) and sent them to a rumors site. He also posted a PDF with specs.

      A little work with the background of the photos, the IP address of the forum poster, and the list of people with access to the models probably led Apple straight to him.

      --
      four nine eighteen twenty-7 thirty-nine forty-7 fiftyeight sixty-nine seventy-9 eighty-8 one-hundred-and-nine one-twenty
  12. Re:or maybe the moral is that Apple isn't Willy Wo by sweetooth · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Obvious troll, but I'll bite I guess.

    When you sign a non disclosure agreement and then disclose information covered by the agreement you have violeted a contract. At that point any company will follow through with legal action against you. Not just Apple or Microsoft. Any company that has trade secrets is going to do what they can to protect them. This isn't apple holding on to brainspace. This is about someone violating the terms of a contract and Apple following through on enforcing it.

  13. The guy broke the rules, so he gets sued. by TellarHK · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It's pretty simple. He screwed up. (And he got caught)

    He shouldn't have done it. There's no defense for it. Apple might be going at it heavy-handed, but only a fool would have tried this knowing that Apple (Jobs) will hurt -vendors- over leaks. He bitch-slapped ATI over leaking, so he's going to -hurt- some guy that leaks a photo or sketch of a new machine design.

    Yes, it's heavy-handed. Yes, it made me wince. But all in all, the guy did fuck up.

    1. Re:The guy broke the rules, so he gets sued. by ipjohnson · · Score: 2, Informative

      I would be ...

      I think the fact they brought cival and criminal charges against him proves they didn't skip over the justice system they just leveraged the crap out of it.

  14. Are you smoking crack? by Soulfader · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Seriously. I should know better, but if you even read the summary, you would know that the guy was leaking trade secrets. It's not like they used a Vulcan mind meld on him to suck out all of his good ideas. He took proprietary work-related information from his employer and gave it away on the Internet.

    On a side note, it's crap like this that really screws it for other contractors. When I was a contractor at HP, we had such a good working relationship with the people there that we were allowed to use the basketball court. None of the other contractors were.

  15. Marketing? by wotan2525 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I always speculated that Apple intentionally created and fueled all these rumor sites..... it does make sense. It's all sorts of free marketing and when a product does finnally see the streets there is enough buzz to attract major-media attention and get them some serious publicity.

    Why would they want to jeopardize that?

    My guess is that this guy seriously pissed some people off by doing other things.... like..... mocking the interface at the company xmas party.

    1. Re:Marketing? by tbien · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's pretty simple. Those rumor sites are hurting Apples sales. Who wants to by a new Powermac/iBook/iMac/Powerbook etc. if he knows that only 3 weeks later he can have more for the money.

      That way Apple can't get enough old machines out of the channel and they're losing money with it.

    2. Re:Marketing? by k_187 · · Score: 2

      Well that and one can look at the current line up, and judge pretty well if a product line is up for a re-fresh. Then you just have to wait for the next MacWorld or Seybold or something and then you can order the next big thing. Besides, Joe Schmoe that buys an iMac G4 isn't going to be rummaging about the rumor sites before he buys, its only going to affect the hard core Mac Addicts and they should know the cycle anyway.

      --
      11 was a racehorse
      12 was 12
      1111 Race
      12112
  16. what!? by Cheapoboy · · Score: 2, Informative

    Contract workers being treated like shit?! when did this happen? good lord. breaking news to be sure.

  17. Just do what I do.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    I have been asked to sign a few NDAs, I just said "I'm taking them home to review them." I then never spoke of them again, and was never asked for them back.

    1. Re:Just do what I do.... by Helter · · Score: 2

      Same experience here... I've seen some pretty frightening NDAs and NCAs (non-compete), but just about every time I've asked for some time review them (read:didn't sign them right there) the entire issue has been forgotten.

    2. Re:Just do what I do.... by radish · · Score: 2

      at my firm they woldn't let you back in the door without that signature...

      --

      ---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"

    3. Re:Just do what I do.... by brunes69 · · Score: 2

      Ever better. take it home to review it, scan it, modify any language you dont like, and print it off and sign it, return it. They'll never check it over.

    4. Re:Just do what I do.... by Ami+Ganguli · · Score: 2

      I've successfully gotten NCAs changed couple of times. The standard ones seem to require you to leave the industry for six months if you ever leave the company. I'd never sign one of those.

      Imagine the problems you would have with a non-compete from, for example, IBM. They compete in virtually every segment of the computer industry, so there's no way you could find work without competing with them in some way.

      Whenever I've raised the issue I've always managed to get some wording inserted that limits the scope. I did pull the "I'll just ignore this thing" act once too - worked ok.

      --
      It is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail. - Abraham Maslow
    5. Re:Just do what I do.... by NTSwerver · · Score: 2

      I have been asked to sign a few NDAs, I just said "I'm taking them home to review them." I then never spoke of them again, and was never asked for them back.

      This is what I did, and I was never asked again. BTW, I work for Apple and I can, quite safely, reveal that their new G5 will be out in Q2 2003 - it will have an AMD processor and the whole case is now shiny chrome.

      --
      -----------------------
      Moderator's essentials
    6. Re:Just do what I do.... by Zathrus · · Score: 3, Informative

      And it's not legally binding if you do that -- if you don't point out the changes then there's no contract whatsoever.

      And don't think this gets you off the hook... because you've now attempted to enter into a contract under bad faith, and/or attempted to defraud, and their lawyer is going to eat you for breakfast.

      IANAL, and so some of the above may be offbase, but I doubt it's far offbase.

    7. Re:Just do what I do.... by epukinsk · · Score: 2

      In high school, my boss stopped by and suggested I stop by his office some time to sign an NDA. I said "OK" and never stopped by or mentioned it again.

      Neither did he.

    8. Re:Just do what I do.... by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 2

      NCs don't work in 'work at will' states (like Texas).

      While this is true, it's also true that you will have an easier time not signing the NC than getting it invalidated in court.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    9. Re:Just do what I do.... by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 2

      Does it have antigravity technology like the rumours say?

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    10. Re:Just do what I do.... by Ami+Ganguli · · Score: 2

      In fact IBM was one of the ones I had changed. I was working as a contracter, and of course IBM is huge - policies may vary. It was four or five years ago.

      --
      It is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail. - Abraham Maslow
    11. Re:Just do what I do.... by Graff · · Score: 2
      Does it have antigravity technology like the rumours say?

      No, but it does have a coffee cup holder.
    12. Re:Just do what I do.... by Phroggy · · Score: 2

      I have been asked to sign a few NDAs, I just said "I'm taking them home to review them." I then never spoke of them again, and was never asked for them back.

      Were you ever asked to come back to work? ;-)

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    13. Re:Just do what I do.... by Andy_R · · Score: 2

      so the CD is not slot loading then? ;-)

      --
      A pizza of radius z and thickness a has a volume of pi z z a
    14. Re:Just do what I do.... by Graff · · Score: 2
      so the CD is not slot loading then?

      CD? Oh, you mean the coasters for your coffee cups? Yeah, they fit right in the coffee cup holder. It's pretty convenient if you ask me. I don't think there is any slot to fit them in though, I usually just open up the side of the computer and stack them neatly. I have a whole collection of AOL coasters stored in there!
    15. Re:Just do what I do.... by lemkebeth · · Score: 2

      Nice joke.

      Apple isn't going to use processors from AMD.

    16. Re:Just do what I do.... by brunes69 · · Score: 2

      Er, you only have to make the changes known if you modify the contract after it was signed before. And it only goes one way.. they have to inform you of the changes, you don't have to inform them, because the contract only says things *you* have to comply with. If the contract also says things *they* have to comply with (we will do this and that), then they have to also sign it. this is rarely thr case in an IP agreement.

  18. Re:or maybe the moral is that Apple isn't Willy Wo by znu · · Score: 3, Informative

    It's not as if they're suing a rumors site or going after someone saying bad things about them. This guy signed an NDA -- a real live legal contract, you'll note, not some click-though thing of arguable validity, or something that can only be enforced by twisting the DMCA in strange ways. He then proceeded to blatantly violate that NDA. This lawsuit is completely legitimate -- any company in Apple's position would do the same.

    --
    This space unintentionally left unblank.
  19. The Message I'm getting by Alexander · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Or maybe the real message is, on a slow news day we have nothing better to post.

    Really, in Lorne Greene/Marc Anderssen Internet years/time, how old is this news?

    How controversial is it? If it weren't Apple but somebody as supremely unsexy like say, Unisys, would it even be news?

    This is neither news - it's past it's prime, nor is it something "that matters".

    --
    "oohhh... I didn't know Schopenhauer was a philosopher!" ..."uhhh yeah, he's the one that begins with
    1. Re:The Message I'm getting by Error27 · · Score: 2

      >>How controversial is it?

      It makes me think less highly of Apple. They are striking out against their fans with this action. That seems unsporting and financially stupid in the long run.

      Sure leaking the rumour may have been illegal. But not all laws are important. And often the punishments don't fit.

      >>If it weren't Apple but somebody as supremely unsexy like say, Unisys, would it even be news?

      As a slashdot reader, when I think of Unisys I think about their failed anti-UNIX marketing campagne. Their anti-UNIX advertisements were served from a UNIX system. It wasn't exactly news but it did make me laugh.

  20. Re:Immuteable by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 4, Funny

    Information is immuteable, if someone needs to know, someone else needs to know too.

    I donno think that word means what you think it means.

    "Immutable" means not changeable, or "carved in stone." The past is immutable. CDROMs are immutable. Stone tablets are immutable.

    Given that definition, your comment makes basically no sense, so I have to think that you meant something else.

    --

    I write in my journal
  21. Or Maybe Apple Truly Seeks to Protect Innovation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Apple has a history of protecting its goods and creativity and for that reason, I somehow doubt if it mattered whether or not the person leaking the trade secret in this case was a contractor.

    My understanding is that if Apple does not actively protect and police its trade secrets, then its innovative goods and ideas no longer receive protection as trade secrets. No evidence is required to show that Apple is an innovative company --- if it did not receive protection for its innovation, then it may have little reason to create future innovative products.

    Considering the pervasiveness of companies to recruit employees from other companies by using 'moles,' and Microsoft's history of heavy-handed tactics, perhaps Apple has another reason to protection its innovation: Microsoft.

    Do you truly believe Microsoft has never placed a 'mole' or has an Apple employee it relies on for information? For also this reason, Apple has no choice but to pursue trade secrets claims in court against everyone it can, or it will entirely lose protection.

    Pretty much, Apple is all about innovation and cutting-edge products. Take that away, and all I see is a company making an OS, keyboards, and mice.

  22. a little hint about why apple does this . . . . by kraksmoka · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Apple also could be girding for future trade secrets disputes by proving it aggressively polices its intellectual property

    they do this because if they do not aggressively pursue enforcement of certain Intellectual Property (IP) laws, a court may find one day that their brand has been allowed to erode. In other words, their TM will become watered down from a legal standpoint, so its stronger for them to sue everyone they can, than to let most of it slide and then lose when it counts.

    this is what happens to a company after they sue m$ and win the battle, while losing the war.

    --
    "You never want a serious crisis to go to waste." - Rahm Emanuel
  23. Negative Apple Press Week? by mbbac · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Is this Negative Apple Press Week on Slashdot? First there was the whole NTT thing where commenters refused to admit that NTT was actually using Apple technology. Then there was the stupid GNU Darwin post, and now this.

    When did the e-mail announcing NAPWeek go out? I missed it.

    --

    mbbac

    1. Re:Negative Apple Press Week? by Gropo · · Score: 2

      People like to regard Apple as the "innocent Hobbit" who feels little influence from "The One Ring"

      In reality, they are just as prone to succumbing to power-hunger as any other entity. IMHO this doesn't alter the facts that matter.

      What actually matters is the ergonomics of the product. Microsoft's attitude towards ergonomics places them at far lower levels of saliency, and it seems as though the Gnome/KDX teams suffer from 'far too many cooks in the kitchen' syndrome when it comes to this matter. I must play with RH8 to see what can be accomplished.

      Many people would rather stand behind a free-as-in-"blank" organization than a heavy-handed, 'we'll litigate at the drop of a hat if you fsck us' organization, and so be it. Apple's actions don't really sway my allegiances in that respect.

      --
      I hate Grammar Nazi's
  24. Re:stop bashing contractors by kin_korn_karn · · Score: 2

    right on, I worked as a contractor for a while and it's bad enough knowing that you can be ejected at any time without this kind of attitude going around.

  25. Don't Trust Contractors by Aggrazel · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You may as well say, don't trust ANYONE.

    The only real difference between a contractor and an employee is how you get your paycheck. To say that someone is going to be more honest just because they are an actual employee is assinine.

    I'm a contractor and I take my job very seriously, there is no way in hell I would ever betray the confidence of any of my employers. Not just because it would tarnish my reputation with future employers but also because I am that kind of person.

    The company I am contracted to right now is very contractor friendly, I've seen some that are not. But the whole attitude that contractors are somehow less deserving of trust than regular employees really irritates me.

    Now this guy clearly broke his contract. But it would not have made a difference if he were a regular employee or a contractor, the responsibility for trust is in the individual, not in how his contract of employment is written. I'm sure regular employees at Apple have the same moral obligations to keep a lid on trade secrets. /rant off

    1. Re:Don't Trust Contractors by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Smart contractors develop relationships with their clients in order to cultivate repeat business. When an employee bails out for another job, they rarely think about returning to the original employer - often they even harbor feelings of great mistrust, feeling that they were treated unfairly which is what motivated them to look for a new job in the first place. Because of these common situations it often makes more sense to trust the contractors than it does to trust the employees.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
  26. Re:or maybe by iocat · · Score: 4, Informative
    Apple does not make it easy to forget. They are upfront, and in your face, constantly, about NDAs, and the consequences for breaking them. If Apple tells someone a secret, you can be damn sure that that someone KNOWS it's a trade secret.

    As a contractor, you have to be an idiot to leak stuff: who'll hire you in the future, especially if you're a Macintosh specialist...

    --

    Dude, I think I can see my house from here.

  27. Apple Isn't so Bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    I am a contractor for Volt, at Apple, in Sacramento, this guy did violate the NDA, and if you have ever worked here, thats a big big no-no, you don't leak confidential information, there are markers everywhere, he didn't do it on accident, and he should get in trouble for it, I can't comment on how big a fight they are putting against him, but he did mess up, and thats the consequences.

    and to the guy talking about 'ripping off BSD code and selling it for Millions' Apple GIVES AWAY DARWIN under open source guidelines, and it works on PC's and on Mac's, they only 'sell' the Quartz interface (the one WE developed), quit bitching, they give it away, they aren't ripping it off, its a superior product, its free, they used it, this is what SHOULD be happening, Microsoft is a different story.

    1. Re:Apple Isn't so Bad by MoneyT · · Score: 2

      I think that design details and plans, regardless of whether they were specificaly stated as "Trade Secrets" are considered stuff, espesialy at a company that sells what it designs

      --
      T Money
      World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
  28. Re:or maybe the moral is that Apple isn't Willy Wo by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 3, Funny

    Maybe the real story here is how people feel a moral and emotional "ownership" of Apple that has them react with revulsion when Apple behaves like the for-profit company that they are!

    Hm. In light of the absolutely insane emotional reactions that Slashdotters have to Microsoft, HP, and Red Hat, I'd say that that's not a particularly interesting story either.

    If there's one at all, it's that Slashdotters, as a group, tend to take everything way too seriously.

    --

    I write in my journal
  29. Big deal by Dirtside · · Score: 2

    Yeah, what kind of trade secrets did he leak? "Apple's going to release a new computer, that's going to be shiny and brightly colored and win lots of design awards." I bet nobody saw that one coming! :)

    --
    "Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
  30. Leaks and Contractors by one9nine · · Score: 4, Funny


    This is why I do my own plumbing. Anyone who puts their toilet main in the hands of other is surley misguided at best.

  31. Wow... by Salubri · · Score: 3, Funny

    "Innovation is in Apple's DNA, so the protection of trade secrets is crucial to our success. Our policy is to take legal actions where necessary to preserve the confidentiality of our intellectual property," Apple said in a prepared statement.

    So... the guy broke an NDA concerning the DNA and now faces a DA because he didn't CYA!
    --
    ----- I want my LART.
  32. Re:Immuteable by Helter · · Score: 2

    Props to the Princess Bride reference.

    Two of my favorite movies referenced in one article, everythings comin' up Millhouse!

  33. Making an example.... by greymond · · Score: 4, Interesting

    out of the guy is what it sounds like according to the article

    "This suit against Lopez helps show the company vigorously tries to protect its secrets, Mireles said. In addition, such suits could serve to deter other potential leakers, he said"

    Apple has taken legal action against coworkers that leaked info in the past (also mentioned in the article) but I think the real reason why they got upset is

    "Steve uses Macworld and other appearances more effectively than any other (technology) leader," Bajarin said. "In that context they want to have that surprise element," because posting those secrets early dilutes the impact, Bajarin said."

    of course the lawyers will argue:

    "Innovation is in Apple's DNA, so the protection of trade secrets is crucial to our success. Our policy is to take legal actions where necessary to preserve the confidentiality of our intellectual property," Apple said in a prepared statement.

    Just because Apple made a great new OS - doesn't mean they're avid sourceforge users :)

  34. Re:or maybe the moral is that Apple isn't Willy Wo by sweetooth · · Score: 2

    I don't agree with Apple going after rumor sites, rumors are rumors. However, when an employee, a contractor, or a vendor violates thier contract then said company has the right to go after them. This article is about a contractor under such an agreement providing the rumor sites with "Trade Secrets." Your comment is irrelevant to the topic at hand unless you provide the background information you are referring to. Also, comparing Apples actions to those of the PRC is just as much extremism as those that defend Apples every move regardless of it being good or bad.

  35. Re:Immuteable by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 2

    Any time. If I'd been able to find a way to work an "O Brother, Where Art Thou?" reference in there, too, I would have.

    --

    I write in my journal
  36. He signed a contract, made a promise... by SuperKendall · · Score: 3, Informative

    Information might want to be free. But I think people respect that a promise is a promise, and if you say you are going to keep a secret then break that promise you deserve whatever you get.

    Just because information WANTS to be free, doesn't mean it SHOULD be freed at first opportunity. That (overused) quote really means "once information is out it is gone", not that sometimes it's not possible to keep information secret for some time, just that it is hard.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  37. Re:or maybe by AndroidCat · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There's a difference between telling a friend over a beer that the new Mac will use the Blort chip, and publishing schematics. One is just being loose-lipped, and other is deliberate (and really stupid).

    --
    One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
  38. Re:or maybe the moral is that Apple isn't Willy Wo by mcg1969 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The People's Republic of China
    Oooh, it's the People's Republic of China defense! Wow, you must be right, then!

    Seriously, Apple is far from the only company with a supposed "history" of going after people to maintain what they call "trade secrets." Trade secrets are probably the most underappreciated intellectual property protection device to those who really don't spend their time thinking about it. Does anyone here know the formula for Coke? Kentucky Fried Chicken's Original Recipe Chicken? The secret sauce on the steak frites at La Relais d'Entrecote in Paris?

    We talk about patents all the time on Slashdot, but for every patent a company pursues, there are loads of trade secrets they are protecting through secrecy. It has real advantages to patents, becuase unlike a patent you don't have to reveal a trade secret to get legal protection for it---you just have to be diligent about keeping it a secret. On the other hand, if someone obtains information about a trade secret through legal means---usually as a result of negligence on the part of the company or its employees---then that protection is gone. Legal trade secret protection actually requires that a company such as Apple be reasonably diligent about plugging leaks.

  39. Re:Apple... you disgust me. by JordoCrouse · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I for one find this extremely disgusting. I understand that businesses need to protect their trade secrets, but I think this crosses the line.

    Lemme see. The guy signed an agreement, took the confidental information, and purposely violated the agreement and posted the information on the internet. Oh, yeah, there was a line crossed, but news flash - it wasn't Apple.

    If I had a company, and one of my employees breaks any NDA agreements like that, I'm gonna fire him first and turn him over the authorities second.

    I don't care what sort of Stallmanistic view of society you have, you cannot possibly believe that somebody should be allowed to sign an agreement, and then break it because they feel that "information should be free".

    When you sign your name to an agreement - thats it. You can't just go back later and say "oh, I was kidding". I hope when they throw the book at this guy, it hits him square in the forehead.

    --
    Do you have Linux and a DotPal? Click here now!
  40. Re:Or Maybe Apple Truly Seeks to Protect Innovatio by kfg · · Score: 2

    "My understanding is that if Apple does not actively protect and police its trade secrets, then its innovative goods and ideas no longer receive protection as trade secrets"

    Weeeeeeeeeeell, yeah, that's kind of the point. A trade secret is protected because it's, a secret. Once someone tells it then it's, ummmmmmm, not a secret anymore.

    That's the only protection a trade secret has. There's no secret registry of secrets where you can secretly tell someone your secrets to keep them secret. That would kinda go against the "secret" part of trade secret.

    Once a secret isn't secret anymore suing anyone is completely pointless in terms of protection of that secret, in fact, Slashdot story as case in point, suing kinda "spreads the news around."

    You're confusing trade secrets with trade*marks*, which are the only IP a business is required by law to actively protect in order to maintain their IP.

    KFG

  41. Re:Immuteable by fscking_coward_2001 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Immutable CD-ROMS? Not mine. They change in a real cool way when I expose them to a propane torch.

  42. trade secret? by asv108 · · Score: 3, Insightful
    The definition of a trade secret

    A secret formula, method, or device that gives one an advantage over competitors.

    So how would releasing specs on a site that is dedicated to "rumors" help the competition? The action is probably a violation of the employee's contract, but a list of specs is certainly not a trade secret.

    Are gateway and dell (I'm guessing they would be considered Apple competitors) going to change their strategic plans because of a list of specs given on an Apple rumor site? Probably not, I doubt that really care about Apple as a competitor, besides using their designs.

    So even if Apple does win this lawsuit, I really doubt this will send a message to other employees contemplating sending specs. This along with Apple's other attempts to vehemently defend their "Trade secrets" and "trademarks" will backfire as usual. Apple should learn to use the role of underdog to boost its "nice guy" image instead of pushing legal actions that even MS wouldn't stoop to. Instead of attempting to rely on the unveiling of secret products at trade shows. Maybe they should try a different strategy?

    1. Re:trade secret? by RatBastard · · Score: 3, Informative
      Are gateway and dell (I'm guessing they would be considered Apple competitors) going to change their strategic plans because of a list of specs given on an Apple rumor site? Probably not, I doubt that really care about Apple as a competitor, besides using their designs.

      Irrelivant. It doesn't matter what your competitors do with the leaked information. That makes as much difference as defending the willful violation of someone's copyright by saying that you didn't make any money doing it.

      What matters is that this information was a secret and he signed an agreement to keep those secrets. The law doesn't care what Dell would or would not do with the leaked information. The law only cares that confidential information was leaked.

      --
      Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
    2. Re:trade secret? by asv108 · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Irrelivant. It doesn't matter what your competitors do with the leaked information. That makes as much difference as defending the willful violation of someone's copyright by saying that you didn't make any money doing it.

      Well so any information that is not publicly known in a corporation is a trade secret? Using that mentality Apple can sue if an employee discloses whether or not Steve Jobs wears boxers or briefs.

    3. Re:trade secret? by TheConfusedOne · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The point was that there's actually a legal definition for a "trade secret". There is no copyright involved in this.

      First off, if the contractor did leak the information then he was clearly in the wrong.

      Second, Apple's attempts at "copyrighting" industrial design have always been a bit odious. I mean look at all the iMac-alike lawsuits they fired off. Don't you think some of the old terminals had already covered the ground of "screen w/ integrated electronics and keyboard on cord" form factor? Apple made it a little cooler with the translucent plastics, but it wasn't exactly ground breaking. Now, I can see a case for their newer iMac with the lamp arm (I still can't figure out if they're cool-looking or not).

      So, the contractor violated an NDA. That's all well and good. But, did he really leak "trade secrets"?

      BTW - the formula for coke is a trade secret. This means that no one really knows what's in there and Coca-Cola has to work hard to protect that information. This information was merely secret for the time being and was going to be fully revealed to the public just at a time of the company's choosing.

      --
      --- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
    4. Re:trade secret? by RatBastard · · Score: 2

      Are you saying that unpublished/unreleased designs are NIOT trade secrets? Ford, Chevy, BMW, et al think very differently. Any information used by a company to do business that is not public can be labeled a trade secret. You don't have to agree with that designation, but your opinion doesn't matter. Only the opinion of the trade secret's owner matters.

      I mean, the "teachings" of The Church (hahaha!) of Scientology are legally considered trade secrets.

      --
      Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
    5. Re:trade secret? by dissy · · Score: 2

      > Well so any information that is not publicly known
      > in a corporation is a trade secret? Using that
      > mentality Apple can sue if an employee discloses
      > whether or not Steve Jobs wears boxers or briefs.

      Actually, if you sign an NDA stating you will not tell anyone about Steve Jobs underwear choice, and you are told what he wears, and you tell someone, then yes they can legally sue you and will win.

      That is the point of an NDA.
      You sign a legally binding contract stating you will not disclose information outlined in the contract.
      You break it, you get sued.

      Dosent matter what the information is, as long as the NDA states not to release it, it is covered and legally binding.

    6. Re:trade secret? by DavidBrown · · Score: 2

      It's not really irrelevant. It's a matter of damages. The guy violated the NDA. He got fired, and he's getting sued. The court will probably find him in breach of the NDA. However, before the court will award a money judgment to Apple, Apple must prove that they were in fact damaged by the disclosure of the allegedly confidential material. No damages = no recovery.

      The real question in the civil case is this: What, exactly, did Apple lose by this disclosure. Can they prove that their sales revenue dropped as a result of people delaying the purchase of Apple computers, waiting for the new model to come out - the new model that everyone more or less already knows is comeing out? Are more people buying Dells because Dell "borrowed" the style of the case when the came out with their new models before Apple could come out with theirs? Who knows - the judge and jury will figure it out - but the principal remains. No blood, no foul.

      --
      144l. ph34r my 133t l3g4l 5k1lz!
    7. Re:trade secret? by asv108 · · Score: 2
      Doesnt matter what the information is, as long as the NDA states not to release it, it is covered and legally binding.

      Yes, but the enforceability of NDA's was not the subject of the parent posts, it was the fact this information is insignificant so the court case is not worth the bad PR it will bring to Apple. Apple's imagine amongst its sometimes blind followers is much more important that teaching some low level contractor a lesson which will not prevent people from leaking.

    8. Re:trade secret? by dissy · · Score: 2

      > Yes, but the enforceability of NDA's was not the
      > subject of the parent posts, it was the fact this
      > information is insignificant so the court case is
      > not worth the bad PR it will bring to Apple

      To people like us that info may be insignificant, but maybe (or from the fact they are suing, most likely) apple thinks it must have some worth for this.

      For all we know, apple could have contacted the person and the person insulted the lawyers that called and said he would fight it all the way, and its just a prick waving contest :)

      The parent i replied to first seemed to be questioning the enforcability of an NDA based on the worth of that information.
      My appologies if that was not the case.

  43. Re:Immuteable by N3WBI3 · · Score: 2

    I give you these 15 (crack)... 10 commandments

    --
  44. OT - sig commentary :) by IIRCAFAIKIANAL · · Score: 2
    If you chase two rabbits, both will escape.


    Not if you chase them with a .22! :)
    --
    Robots are everywhere, and they eat old people's medicine for fuel.
  45. My latest NDA, written by a lawyer? doubtful by Diver777 · · Score: 3, Funny

    For my last co-op position I was asked to sign a NDA as usual. Only in this case they decided to give me the NDA two months into my four-month work term, and it was not retroactive. Oh, and aside from that little blunder, it did not have a date on it!

    As in, nowhere to put a date. Just a sig, no date! I asked if it was written by a lawyer and they said it was, but I am very doubtful. IANAL but I would think that a NDA without a date on it would be worthless in court. I would like to see what they could pull in court if I simply released some info before I had signed the NDA, or after I had signed the non-dated NDA.

    So let this serve as a note to companies out there, having a NDA doesn't mean shit if it's not written correctly by a competent lawyer!

    --
    The reason Santa is so jolly is that he knows where all the bad girls live.
    1. Re:My latest NDA, written by a lawyer? doubtful by DavidBrown · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I bet it was written by a lawyer.

      Since signing the NDA wasn't a condition of employment at the time that it was signed, the NDA cannot be enforcable against the employee unless it is supported by consideration (ie, they must PAY you something for signing the NDA). Without consideration (a legal term), there is no contract.

      The paranoid lawyer within me says that the they gave you an NDA without a date to muddy the waters and try to cover up the fact that it was signed after you were given employment, and was not in fact a condition of employment. The lawyers knew there was a potential problem and tried to bury it.

      However, keep in mind that the lack of an NDA does not fully excuse an employee for liability for leaking trade secrets.

      IAAL, but IANAELA (I am not an Employment Law Attorney).

      --
      144l. ph34r my 133t l3g4l 5k1lz!
  46. Apples aren't built by Apple employees... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Apple computers largely aren't built by employees, contract or otherwise, of Apple. Apples are assembled by people who work for a large temporary workforce agency (Volt).

    Apple decided years ago to dump the overhead, both both legal and financial, associated with having a manufacturing labor force on their payroll. People who build Apples have a job and get paid only when Apple's inventory is down and they need to build some units.

    How strongly attached would you feel to Apple if you got a call Monday morning at 6AM telling you to report to the factory - with no certainty that you'd have a job for the entire week. Or if that phone call doesn't come at all and you need money for rent.

    Or, when at noon, they blow the whistle and say "that's it, everybody go home, and don't come back tomorrow". Remember, you don't get paid for hours you're not actually on the assembly line.

    The pay for assembling Apples is about the same as for flipping cheeseburgers but without the security of knowing that you'll probably have a job next week.

    This is "A Good Thing" for Apple because they don't have all that foolishness of hiring people for real jobs, paying them benefits, wondering what to do with them when production requirements slow, or taking accounting hits for layoffs.

    The net of it is that Apples are to some large extent built by people who are willing to get along making a few bucks now and again, and who don't feel any loyalty to Apple or their products.

    Is it any suprise that they leak information?

    1. Re:Apples aren't built by Apple employees... by The+AtomicPunk · · Score: 2


      It sure seems better than having no job at all.

      If it's so horrible, quit. If you won't quit, then there must be something you appreciate about the job, so you shouldn't fuck them over by releasing trade secrets.

    2. Re:Apples aren't built by Apple employees... by The+AtomicPunk · · Score: 2

      Idiot. If any of those things are important to them, they shouldn't be releasing trade secrets.

      If you're stupid enough to release trade secrets and you're in a dire situation, you deserve exactly what you get.

  47. Re:So what's the secret? by N3WBI3 · · Score: 2

    I would have to disagree with you on this one, Apple (unlike MS) never tried to pass darwin off as their own OS. When you were buying OSX you were buying Darwin + Apples Aqua interface and other 'things" they added (I say things because I dont know OSX at all).

    --
  48. Re:Amazed by the Slashdot Response by Zathrus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I mean, information wants to be free, right?

    Oh, of course.

    So lets share secrets. Yours first. Social security number, date of birth, credit card numbers, etc. It's all just information.

    If you tell someone something and ask them to keep it a secret, you get pissed at them when they don't. When you do the same thing and have them sign a legal affidavit saying that they won't tell anyone else the secret, then if they do you have the power of the court behind you.

    And, you know what? They didn't have to promise not to tell the secret. You didn't have to share it with them either at that point. But once you promise, damn right you're going to get torched for breaking that promise.

    Oh, and before you start going off on non-sequitors, the law does provide for breaking contracts when revealing wrongdoing. There's an entire section of law dealing with whistle blowing, so as to protect and encourage people to report illegal activity.

  49. Re:Apple... you disgust me. by Lochin+Rabbar · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I don't care what sort of Stallmanistic view of society you have, you cannot possibly believe that somebody should be allowed to sign an agreement, and then break it because they feel that "information should be free".

    There are times when an employee ought to be able to break a NDA with impunity. When a company is behaving in a manner that is illegal or unethical a whistle-blower should have the protection of the law. Further when a company behaves in a manner that is illegal it could be argued that the employee has a legal duty to break any NDA that would involve them in a conspiracy "to pervert the course of justice," (at least that's the legal term that would be used in the UK).

    Take an extreme and fictitous example, a food company uses a secret ingredient and has all its employees sign a NDA to preserve the secrecy of that ingredient. An employee discovers that the secret ingredient is rat poison, what should they do? I would say the should report it to the authorities and the press, and the company should not have recourse to law through the NDA.

    The point I am trying to make here is that NDA's should be valid when they are used to protect trade secrets, and that the term trade secret should be strictly defined such that it covers knowledge that gives a company a competitive advantage over rival companies but not knowledge that a customer needs to make an informed choice about the value of that companies product.

    One problem with the NDA's that employees are asked to sign is that they are over broad and it is the company that gets to define which pieces of information are secret. NDA's are open ended and one sided contracts.

    Consider an old practice of IBM. They used to sell printers with a switch that changed the speed of the printer hidden inside the printer. They sold upgrades to these printers that involved an engineer visiting the customer's premises snd flicking the switch when the customer wasn't looking. Pure and simple IBM used secrecy to rip off customers. Trade secret or sharp practice?

    Now consider the case in question? The information apple wanted to cover up was the fact that now wasn't the time to buy one of their machines. They didn't want their customers to be able to make an informed choice about when to buy. The information wasn't of a nature that would allow a rival to improve their product or make their product more efficiently. I don't see this as a legitimate area for NDA's to cover.

  50. Oh... by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 2


    I thought this was going to be a story about an employee who took too many lavatory breaks.

  51. You're confusing a variety of laws here... by abulafia · · Score: 2

    There's so much confusion going on that I'm not even going to try to sort it out. A couple of hints -

    Trademark does indeed need to be defended in order to be help as such. That has nothing to do with IP or trade secrets (two different things).

    Trade secrets are only enforced contractually. They have no special protection. A leak is a leak - if you leak a trade secret to me, you can be held in violation of any contract in place, but I can do whatever I want with the information. (If you don't believe me, google on "+RC4 +cypherpunks +RSA +anonymous")

    IP means a large number of different things, with patents being a large centerpiece. This case has nothing to do with IP.

    In short, defending contractual agreements has nothing to do with one's brand from a legal standpoint. Try not to get confused in the future.

    -j, not a lawyer, etc.

    --
    I forget what 8 was for.
  52. Re:Immuteable by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 2

    Yeah. Like I said, makes basically no sense.

    Also, note that it's "immutable," not "immuteable." When you wrote "immuteable" initially, my natural conclusion was that you meant "un-mute-able," as in "cannot be silenced." This is, of course, not a word, but it makes more sense in context than "immutable" does.

    This is a case where a misspelling on your part significantly changed the meaning of your message.

    --

    I write in my journal
  53. Re:Apple... you disgust me. by JordoCrouse · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Take an extreme and fictitous example, a food company uses a secret ingredient and has all its employees sign a NDA to preserve the secrecy of that ingredient. An employee discovers that the secret ingredient is rat poison, what should they do? I would say the should report it to the authorities and the press, and the company should not have recourse to law through the NDA.

    I agree - in fact it is your duty to report any illegal activities. But that should be reported to the authorities, not splattered all over half a dozen web sites before you get around to actually providing that pesky thing called proof.

    Consider an old practice of IBM. They used to sell printers with a switch that changed the speed of the printer hidden inside the printer. They sold upgrades to these printers that involved an engineer visiting the customer's premises snd flicking the switch when the customer wasn't looking. Pure and simple IBM used secrecy to rip off customers. Trade secret or sharp practice?

    Ah, but was it illegal? If so, then your point stands, but you simply can't be violating your signed agreements just because a company acts in a manner that you find repulsive. You can choose not to sign the agreement. You can choose to terminate your employment once you discover the truth. You are simply asked not to reveal the secrets once you have learned them.

    And if you feel that it is illegal, then go tell a lawer or the approprate agency, and they will tell a judge, who will decide if it is potentially illegal, or just ethically corrupt.

    But no matter the situation, taking confidental information that you promised to cover up and posting it on the web is wrong. I don't give a damn about your opinion, or your morals, or even the complete lack of ethics that 80% of these companies have. Its illegal for now. If you don't like it, then lobby to have the law changed. Until then, I say sign on the dotted line and live up to your oaths.

    --
    Do you have Linux and a DotPal? Click here now!
  54. Don't trust Contrators? by Torinaga-Sama · · Score: 2

    I kinda take offence to that, as I myself am a contrator. Maybe Apple need to treat their contractors better or hire better contrators.

    --
    (/local/home/curiosity)-#who -u|grep thecat|cut -c 44-49|xargs kill -9
  55. They'd be setting up a legal defence fund. by AzrealAO · · Score: 2

    And you know they would be.

  56. Re:Or Maybe Apple Truly Seeks to Protect Innovatio by frankie · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Once a secret isn't secret anymore suing anyone is completely pointless in terms of protection of that secret

    Suing the guy isn't meant to protect that (former) secret; it's long since become public knowledge. Suing is how they protect the next secret, and the ones after that...

  57. Umm by sulli · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I don't think so. Lack of job security is no excuse to violate a contract you sign with your employer.

    Loyalty and ethics are not the same thing. Think of all those Enron "stars" - loyal yes, ethical no. Flip side is the contractor who quits when he feels like it, but honors your secrets (I've worked with several). I'll take the latter any day.

    --

    sulli
    RTFJ.
  58. Re:Or Maybe Apple Truly Seeks to Protect Innovatio by feldsteins · · Score: 2

    You're missing the point. You have to enforce and prosecute all leaks of trade secrets. You don't get to pick and choose. If you fail to prosecute just becausze "nobody was hurt this time" it opens a wide door for future defense lawyers to say "they never enforced it, therefore it holds no legal power as a contract." Regardless of what you or I or anyone else might think of this logic, that's how it'd go.

    --
    You like your Macintosh better than me, don't you Dave? Dave? Can you hear me Dave?
  59. lucky for him he wasn't working for the government by a7244270 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Getting busted for treason could be far worse - even if the charges end up being untrue - like that one nuclear chinese dude - him, his family, his private life all got dragged through the mud. Ultimately for nothing.

    Bottom line - he signed a NDA and then violated it.

    He deserves whatever he gets. "Information wants to be free" is crap - there is such a thing as personal responsibility.

    If this guy was RMS's soul brother, and truly believed that "Information wants to be free" crap then he shouldn't have signed the contract in the first place.

    Principles are only valid if you stick by them all the time, not just when they are convenient.

  60. Re:As bad as Microsoft, if not worse by RatBastard · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Microsoft does this all the time. They just don't get the press that Apple does. And to be honest, Apple pretty much begged for this story to be high-profile. And I'd say the same thing to the dimwit who leaked MS secretsa as I did to this boob: "You screwed up pal. Big time."

    Sure, the Anti-Micro$h!t Linux-Uber-Alles geeks might rant like mad, but they are also taking Apple to task for this right now.

    --
    Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
  61. IN CAPITALIST AMERICA by Tokerat · · Score: 2

    ..is wonderful how I can, IN PUBLIC, come and learn Apple's new trade secrets! Alas I did not undershtand von word he was talking about.

    Oh and for the record, what does this incident have to do with COOTYS RAT SEMEN? I never was good with anagrams...

    --
    CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
  62. Re:or maybe the moral is that Apple isn't Willy Wo by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 2

    Does anyone here know the formula for Coke?

    Does it even matter? You can duplicate Coke, but you can't call it Coca-Cola, and anybody who drinks the stuff will just think it tastes like coke.

    --
    "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
  63. Microsoft Ergonomics? by DavidBrown · · Score: 2

    I hope this isn't considered a troll, or flamebait, but I have to disagree with you about your opinion of Microsoft's attitude towards ergonomics - at least with respect toward's Microsoft's hardware division.

    IMHO, the Microsoft Natural Keyboard is, for people who are trained to type, the best keyboard presently available. On the other hand, Apple keyboards have always seemed to me to be exercises in style over substance. They sure look pretty, but as keyboards, they leave much to be desired. And let's not even talk about the original iMac "hockey-puck" mouse. Apple does a great job, most of the time, at creating a superior user experience, and their machines sure do look good, but I don't think serious typists should have to put up with what they call keyboards in Cupertino.

    Take away my XP if you want, but I'll never let you have my keyboard.

    --
    144l. ph34r my 133t l3g4l 5k1lz!
    1. Re:Microsoft Ergonomics? by Gropo · · Score: 2

      I absolutely agree... I've got an Intellimouse Explorer hooked up to the G4 I'm typing this on (and a Macally 'traditional size' keyboard). I was only referring to the GUI guidelines of each respective team :)

      --
      I hate Grammar Nazi's
  64. Huuuh? by spacefrog · · Score: 2

    Industry standards are for idiots

    Hmmmm

    • USB
    • IEEE-1394
    • PCI
    • AGP
    • UNIX
    • 802.11b
    • OpenBoot
    Yep, those are all sooooo Apple-proprietary.
  65. additional damages... by SethJohnson · · Score: 4, Insightful


    The followup damages are this:

    If consumers know that a new computer is about to be released with compelling features, it will be harder for retailers to sell the current inventory at the current retail price. Usually, in advance of a product introduction, Apple will curtail availability of products to retailers if the products are to be replaced. This helps prevent them from getting loaded down with the last model when the new model is released.

    Blowing the secrecy of a new product release corrupts this process because consumers can make a tangible comparison of what waiting X days will get them vs. the mystery of knowing that a potentially-cool new product might be available soon. Retailers are then less-able to move the product that's currently on the shelves and they have to offer discounts on the leftover stock after the new product is out.
  66. Or... by sawilson · · Score: 2

    A Ecosystem Torn
    Necessary Motto
    Nectary Toe Moss
    Not A Core System
    An Erect Moss Toy
    One Try Ass Comet
    Tycoon Ass Meter
    So Scram Teen Toy
    Scam Teensy Root
    Am On Cosy Street
    Sony Scat Remote
    Mac Rotten Yes So
    Sears Cottony Me
    Comatose Sentry
    Easy Scent Motor
    Stony Acme Store

    And my personal favorite:
    WAIT FOR IT.......

    Taco Semen Story

  67. Flight of the Navigator... by evilviper · · Score: 2
    For some reason, I just thought back to "Flight of the Navigator"...

    allegedly leaking Apple's trade secrets on the Internet."


    "I do not leak. You leak... Remember?"
    --
    Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  68. New Strategy by usr122122121 · · Score: 2
    Perhaps it's time for Apple to develop a more "need to know" method of R&D so that everyone doesn't know all the information...
    For instance, it worked in 1984 and Cube...
    Oh, SNAP!!! Nevermind.

    Moral of the story: unless you're planning on developing a "distopia" or a giant killing machine, employers have to rely trust. If that doesn't work, the next step is lawsuits.

    --

    -braxton
  69. Re:Immuteable by schon · · Score: 2

    Any given algorithm is immuteable, because once it is changed, it's a different algorithm

    Once it's changed? So you can change it?

    As Twirlip said, immutable means cannot be changed.

    So if you can change something ("once it's changed") then it's not immutable.

  70. This might have been news THREE WEEKS AGO... by jbuilder · · Score: 2

    This might have been news three weeks ago when I first mentioned it here and here.

    However this is *very* old hat today.

    What really annoys *me* is that I mention this and got mod'ed *down* for it.

    --
    Polymorphism -- It's what you make of it.
  71. Re:Immuteable by tbone1 · · Score: 2
    I think you forgot the "Oi!" after the (crack).

    (Score -1: Did not include Young Frankenstein reference.)

    --

    The Independent: Reverend Spooner Arrested in Friar Tuck Incident - ISIHAC, Historical Headlines
  72. Steve Job's Macworld thunder... by zerofoo · · Score: 2

    Remember what happened to the last company that "pre-announced" something that was to debut at Macworld?

    Let me refresh your memory. A couple of years ago, ATI came out with a spiffy new chip called the Rage 128. The CEO of ATI came out and did the whole PR presentation thing...and WHOOPS! He let out that the new card would be appearing in the new G4s at Macworld.

    That pissed off Mr. Jobs and company. So much so that all the G4s we bought after that only came with Nvidia GeForce 2 MX cards...heh, heh.

    The lesson learned today is: Don't steal Steve Job's thunder if you know what is good for you.

    -ted

  73. Re:stop bashing contractors by Phroggy · · Score: 2

    I'm a contractor. stop bashing us. It's a good living.

    I'm a contactor too. No it isn't.

    --
    $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
    $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
  74. Assumptions by Martin+S. · · Score: 2

    He broke an NDA point blank,

    How do you know he broke an NDA? whilst likely there is nothing in the article to confirm this.

    it doesn't matter if it hurt sales or not

    If they suffered any harm or damage is the fundamental issue.

  75. As they discovered in SouthPark by SHEENmaster · · Score: 2

    Commercialism is the true spirit of Christmas that all religions can embrace.

    That said, Jews just missed the memo and atheists are either morons or haven't looked into the evidence behind Christianity. Read "The Case for Christ" if you want an objective investigation of such things. No bs, I promise.

    --
    You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.