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U.S. Air Force Developing Microwave Weapon

Makarand writes "A weapon that uses an intense microwave pulse to fry electronics in computers and communication systems is being developed by the US Air Force according to this BBC News article. This weapon is totally harmless to people and could be used in situations where hitting targets could result in civilian casualties. This weapon could be carried by an unmanned drone or a cruise missile." EMP weapons have, in general, been under discussion and research for a very long time.

103 of 655 comments (clear)

  1. Advantage.. by Chicane-UK · · Score: 3, Funny

    At least when the army are out on maneuvers, they can cook up their own rations with it :)

    --
    "Hey! Unless this is a nude love-in, get the hell off my property!!"
    1. Re:Advantage.. by Sven-Erik · · Score: 2, Informative

      If the weapon is not dangerous for people, it would also mean that it is unusable to cook food with...

      The microwaves in microwaveovens has a frequency that energizes water-molecules. And it has the same effect in live tissue as it has on dead. So if it is unharmfull to people, it should not energize watermolecules...

      --
      - "Every demand is a prison, and wisdom is only free when it asks nothing." Sir Betrand Russell
    2. Re:Advantage.. by le_jfs · · Score: 5, Funny

      Someday we'll be able to use such devices to fry the RFID tags in our tires.

      --
      main(char O){O++&&(((O-291)*O+27788)*O-868020?1:putchar(O++) )&&main(O);}
  2. Completely safe for civillians? I think not. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How is disabling electronics completely safe for civillians?

    Just imagine this being used near a busy traffic intersection, or near a hospital.

    1. Re:Completely safe for civillians? I think not. by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It isn't completely safe. Even the example from the article about zapping a chemical plant without releasing toxins isn't entirely accurate. Chemical processes don't just stop if the control systems conk out all at once, there might well be a catastrophic reaction.

      But in most cases it's safer than conventional weapons: disabling electronics in a hospital, on an intersection or at a chemical plant is better than just pelt those targets with bombs.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    2. Re:Completely safe for civillians? I think not. by CTD · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Anyone who expects the military to produce a device that is 100% safe for humans, or safe from unintended results is fooling themselves.

      --
      Grimwell - old, cranky, mean, obsessive
    3. Re:Completely safe for civillians? I think not. by analog_line · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'd say it's a hell of a lot closer to "completely safe" than a 2000 pound bomb or a cruise missile or, the gods help us all, cluster munitions.

    4. Re:Completely safe for civillians? I think not. by overunderunderdone · · Score: 4, Informative

      How is disabling electronics completely safe for civillians?
      Just imagine this being used near a busy traffic intersection, or near a hospital.


      You've obviously never driven or been to a hospital in the third world. In the first case nobody pays much attention to the lights (if they exist or work) in the second electricity is unreliable even without the occasional attack by an EMP weapon.

      However, I'll grant it's not *completely* safe but it certainly beats the alternative. Take the example of a battery of SAMS in downtown Bagdad. In the not-so-distant past we would bombed the neighborhood killing hundreds of innocent civilians*, With current technology we would try to take it out with a "smart" bomb maybe killing two or three innocent civilians, unless we miss in which case we may kill a few dozen innocent civillians. With this new technology we blast it with an EMP pulse and everybody's lights go out - not a big deal in most of the third world.

      * in the example of bombing the neighborhood to get at those SAMS and killing hundreds (or even thousands) of innocent civilians. It's quit possible that there would be a war crime involved in this scenario, but NOT on the part of the USA. Putting military assets in civilian areas to sheild them from attack is a war crime. Legally the existance of the military assets removes any immunity that target would otherwise have had. A Mosque, church, hospital, orphanage, etc with a SAM battery or Radar installation on the roof is a legitimate target and legally (and morally IMO) the guilt for those innocent deaths is on the heads of the person that made it a legitimate target. The attacker in this situation does still have a general responsiblity to minimise civilian deaths - now that we have precision bombs it would be a war crime to use dumb ones in such a situation but prior to their invention such bombings did occur.

    5. Re:Completely safe for civillians? I think not. by Oddly_Drac · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "But in most cases it's safer than conventional weapons: disabling electronics in a hospital, on an intersection or at a chemical plant is better than just pelt those targets with bombs."

      Pelting Hospitals with bombs is generally not a good idea anyway, because the UN gets all uppity and starts waving around the Geneva Convention and mentioning 'civilians'.

      I suspect that anyone suggesting using HPM weaponry in Iraq is looking more at the 'testbed' nature of the war rather than their effectiveness, given that the state of arms/armament in that region is limited to mostly surplus Russian/American hardware.

      The only conceivable reason for deployment would be to attack hardened targets and communications, but you can bet that those things would be protected against induced currents (DefStan mentions three inline arrestors for antenna for protection from nuclear EMP), however, the civilians aren't.

      So, instead of simply looking at the lovely byline provided by the warporn reports, it might be interesting to look at the effect of EMP as a whole in terms of the effects it produces. I believe someone mentioned 'pacemakers exploding'.

      OD

      PS The US has been pumping money into 'non-lethal' weaponry for years, mainly as a means of stressing supply lines rather than working on the conventional method of 'killing lots of troops'. The collatoral/infrastructure damage from indiscriminate use of HPM is going to be more, not less, than conventional arms. The main problem the US (and other developed nations) have is avoiding troop casualties.

      --
      Oddly Draconis
      Too cynical to live, too stubborn to die.
    6. Re:Completely safe for civillians? I think not. by iapetus · · Score: 2, Funny

      Look, if they're going to paint huge red target markers on their buildings then what do they expect? Damn liberals.

      --
      ++ Say to Elrond "Hello.".
      Elrond says "No.". Elrond gives you some lunch.
    7. Re:Completely safe for civillians? I think not. by mikerich · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Hospitals shouldn't be considered valid targets in the first place.

      They're not valid targets, they're specifically protected under the 1949 Geneva Convention.

      But then, water and power plants are protected under Article 54 of the Fourth Protocol of the Geneva Conventions. Britain and America are both signatories of the protocol, yet they bombed Iraqi water, sewerage and power systems during the last Gulf War. Neither party has been charged with war crimes.

      Best wishes,
      Mike.

    8. Re:Completely safe for civillians? I think not. by forgetmenot · · Score: 2, Funny

      Not to mention the shrapnel caused by all the exploding eggs.

    9. Re:Completely safe for civillians? I think not. by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Vietnam, what about the crimes and human rights violations by the North Vietnamese?

      I'm bothered that the United States is singled out for thier accidents, "crimes and human rights violations" and no one else is called on the carpet for it.

      American, French and Moroccian prisoners were tortured and in some cases held after fighting ended in Cong Truong 5, Thanh Tri and Cuu Loc prisons as part of the Proselytizing Bureau.

      The North Vietnamese National Liberation Front assassinated 36,000 South Vietnamese and abducted another 58,000. During Tet, when the city of Hue was occupied by the NVA, they killed 5,000 people and threw them into mass graves.

      During a modern lethal war things happen, soliders get out of control, but don't for one minute think the Americans or Allied soldiers are the only ones out there doing bad things.

    10. Re:Completely safe for civillians? I think not. by maetenloch · · Score: 5, Informative

      But then, water and power plants are protected under Article 54 of the Fourth Protocol of the Geneva Conventions [deoxy.org]. Britain and America are both signatories of the protocol, yet they bombed Iraqi water, sewerage and power systems during the last Gulf War. Neither party has been charged with war crimes.

      But then Article 56 has the 'military necessity' clause:

      Article 56.
      2. The special protection against attack provided by paragraph I shall cease:
      a. for a dam or a dike only if it is used for other than its normal function and in regular, significant and direct support of military operations and if such attack is the only feasible way to terminate such support;
      b. for a nuclear electrical generating station only if it provides electric power in regular, significant and direct support of military operations and if such attack is the only feasible way to terminate such support;
      c. for other military objectives located at or in the vicinity of these works or installations only if they are used in regular, significant and direct support of military operations and if such attack is the only feasible way to terminate such support.

    11. Re:Completely safe for civillians? I think not. by n9hmg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, a radar running CW is quite a weapon. You might, if you would RTFA, note the phrase "The short, intense burst of energy". Millions of watts. To generate that continuously takes a very large piece of equipment. To hold enough to run that level for an extremely short time, you just need a big capacitor.
      Imagine trying to light paper with the light from a strobe, even using a magnifying glass. You're just not going to get it to happen. On the other hand, we all know that carbon nanofibres in regular atmosphere light right up from a camera flash. We're talking the same concept.
      I have no concern if a police officer wants to shine a bright flashlight in my face (though it is annoying), but I would get rather annoyed if he insisted on shining it on the film in my camera. This doesn't mean that I'm ignoring the danger from the flashlight, so amply detected by my film (see most claims of carcinogenicity).
      Anybody ever get sick or hurt from a lightning strike a kilometer away? Me either, but I have lost radio gear to it, and once got a nice little zap from the center conductor of a PL-259 as I was frantically unhooking a 2-meter rig from a little 1/4-wave groundplane (I briefly thought it was a direct strike, until the boom came in instant later, and I also realized that I wasn't dead yet). That was a very low wavelength - essentially a single wavefront. An equivalent signal at microwave would produce a very minor, probably undetected surface burn if I had been in actual contact with the center conductor. Of course, any of such a signal that didn't dissapate in the radiating element itself would have dissapated as heat in the coax a couple of inches from the radiating element, and the same for... oh, let's say a car, pocket knife, whatever piece of conductor you might be touching when the pulse hit.
      And those complaining of collateral damage from destroyed infrastructure. That's just damn silly. When we destroy a supply convoy headed for the troops, where do you think the food, clothing, and other supplies come from to replace it? If we destroy a SAM base, do you think Sodom (as I pronounce it) will just do without it to avoid hardship to his people? In real countries (read - those of us not ruled by self-appointing elites and thugs - sorry, Saudi, Kuwait, Syria, Iraq, Iran, China, Vietnam, N. Korea, Myanmar, Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Zimbabwe, etc..), if a war becomes not worth winning to the citizens, it ends. I've always had mixed feelings over how we walked away from Vietnam. I hate that we abandoned all those people to the cruel, power-hungry north, but I don't care about them enough to have a single American unwillingly risk his life for them. There was nothing there of importance to the U.S., and when enough people realized it, our ability to prosecute the war effectively, went away.
      Contrast that with N. Korea. Nobody is trying to invade them, but their government maintains one of the largest (the largest? I'm not worried enough to bother finding out) standing armies in the world, while their people starve (not just hungry, but dying from lack of food). If a government of a real country tried that, they'd be out on their asses shortly, at least if they haven't completely supressed the second ammendment (or its equivalent outside the U.S.). For those who don't know what that ammendment is... It's the one we have in place in case the government quits honoring the other 9.

    12. Re:Completely safe for civillians? I think not. by overunderunderdone · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Uh-huh. Much better to save the life of one or two American pilots by killing "hundreds or thousands" of civilians.

      Your problem is not with me or with the USA but with the Geneva convention, international law and every other country on the globe. To be fair to you though, in the case of a hospital you do have to give notice prior to attacking even if the enemy is using it in a way that voids it's protected status. As for the "hundreds or thousands" dying to save the life of one or two American pilots - it is to avoid that situation that this weapon is being developed. But hundreds OF thousands of innocent civilians did die in WWII because of both types of war crimes (bombing illegitimate targets, and also making otherwise protected places legitimate targets by stationing military assets there) commited by both sides. As for me those responsible for the decision to bomb Dresden should have been executed. But by the same token so should anyone using their own civilians to shield their military - while their enemy has no responsiblity to attack it and should still avoid it if possible - if it is not impossible to ignore and the target must be attacked to achieve their objectives - those deaths are firmly on the head of the person that put them in that situation.

      Hey ! There some oil ! Let's bomb the bastards and put in a puppet administration to get it to us cheaply rather than reduce our fosil fuel needs

      The reasons for a war are largely irrelevant to this discussion which is about the conduct of that war. The legal situation is the same when bombing a civillian neighborhood in Nazi Germany (or occupied France for that matter) back in the imprecise days when it meant hundreds of civilian deaths to take out a flak gun or taking out a SAM battery with precision munitions when it may cost no or at most a dozen civilian deaths or in the future when an EMP pulse may make it possible to take it out without even any military deaths.

    13. Re:Completely safe for civillians? I think not. by overunderunderdone · · Score: 2, Insightful

      At least in my world, killing is something that should be avoided at any cost.

      You live in a very simple world. Lets take some not so far fetched hypothetical situations (let me say up fron I'm not saying these have any relation to the administoin motives for going to war but they are situations that we HAVE faced in the past few years). We have quasi allies in northern Iraq called the Kurds. Kurds are the victims of occasional attempts at genocide by the governments they unhappily find themselves living under - Turkey, Iraq & Iran. It was largely to protect the Kurds in the north and the Shia in the south that rose against Saddam that the no fly zones were established. Now if you saw an Iraqi artillary unit of a few hundred men advancing that you had certain knowledge was going to attack Kurdish villages in order to kill many thousands of innocent civilians would the deaths of those innocent civillians be the "any" cost it would be worth paying to refrain from killing the Iraqis? To muddy the waters further - what if the Iraqi unit situated themselves in the middle of an Iraqi village "protected" by the presense of their own civilians? I don't know that the moral position stays so crystal clear for anyone other than a fundamentalist of one stripe or another. The moral costs of passificm can be quite as high as those of beligerence when dealing with truly brutal people. As George Orwell noted "pacifists are objectively pro-nazi" - quite a bit more harsh than any position I would take but his sentiments reveal the lack of moral consensus (on the left) on the propriety of avoiding killing at "ANY" cost.

      By the way our pilots in the northern no-fly zone did face exactly that moral dilemma (though as it turned out without mustard gas) We decided NOT to attack the Iraqis and they killed a very large number of Kurd civilians. Civilians that we had given explicit promises to protect. By your reasoning still the right moral decision but I'm a little uncomfortable with it.

      I am reserving judgement on the morality of the US cause in this (potential) war - if Saadam can be shown to be developing nuclear, chemical or biological weapons I think his past history (and his sponsorship of terrorists - albeit atheistic ones like Abu Nidal rather than fundamentalists like Bin Laden) create a situation with a lot more uncomfortable moral dilemmas than the "no blood for oil" crowd are willing to admit. The administrations intentions are probably quite mixed with a heavy dose of those that are "far less than noble" but I think there are other motivations in the mix that are not so purely oil black as you are willing to admit.

  3. Missile Shield by nick255 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I was thinking. Wouldn't it make alot of sense to use these things in the defence shield the US is building? They seem to be having a lot of problems hitting the incoming missile with a convential exploding warheads, but something which could kill the electronics in the missile from within 300m could work better. (I must admit I don't know what sort of radius the convential warheads can destroy missiles over)

    1. Re:Missile Shield by salesgeek · · Score: 4, Informative

      Even if you fry the electronics at 300M out, that doesn't guarantee the missile will miss... A balistic weapon traveling at 4,600 MPH can't change direction much in 300M... for that matter, a cruise missle traveling at 560MPH can't turn much either. BTW - the millitary has had microwave weapons for some time... Since the '50s - I can't remember the name of the weapon system, but they used to have a device that used microwaves to explode artillery in the air. The shrapnel generated was a problem, but it was better than taking a direct hit...

      $G

      --
      -- $G
    2. Re:Missile Shield by creepery2kplus · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Up to date there hasn't been a successful test of an energy weapon interception of incoming missiles. Pretty much this is what Bush wants to push research on despite the fact that the US has signed treaties to prevent such research cause if someone believed that they can indeed survive a MAD scenario they may actually push the button.

    3. Re:Missile Shield by 1u3hr · · Score: 4, Insightful
      you'll still have 12 Kg or so of plutonium or some bio/ chemical agent(not to mention the possibility or unexpended fuel) landing somewhere. Blowing them up with another missile still has it's advantages.

      Then you'd get the 12 kg of Pu vaporized and in the air causing cancer for the next million years or so. Probably preferable to have it localised where it impacts and more easily recovered. (Unless that's the centre of a city.)

    4. Re:Missile Shield by overunderunderdone · · Score: 3, Insightful

      despite the fact that the US has signed treaties

      That treaty had an exit clause that we chose to excercise. You can disagree with the policy but we are not doing anything "despite signing a treaty" nor are we "breaking a treaty." We have fulfilled every requirement of the treaty. In either event the treaty did not bar research only deployment in more than one location. (We never deployed any ABM systems despite being allowed by the treaty to do so in one location - IN SOVIET RUSSIA they chose to protect Moscow with an ABM system)

      ...cause if someone believed that they can indeed survive a MAD scenario they may actually push the button.

      Even before the proliferation of nuclear weapons to many more unstable and unpredictable countries there was a good argument for ABM systems to *preserve* MAD. Prior to the development of precision guidance systems you could nuke your enemies missle silos but the weapons were so imprecise and the silos so well protected that even with nuclear warheads you were unlikely to destroy them. That all changed when the USA and much later the Soviets developed dependable precision warheads. A preemptive attack could have (for the most part) worked. We could have nuked them or vise versa and had a good chance of getting their weapons on the ground - the stability of mutual suicide was already being undermined. ABM would have restored it - nobody thinks or claims it would have been 100% effective but it would have made a preemptive strike infeasible.

      In todays world things are different - we are worried about a handful of countries with only a handful of nukes each - There is no MAD balance of power between us and Korea, Pakistan, India, (Iran - soon)(Iraq - fairly soon if not prevented) or even China (for the moment, they're bulking up fast) A preemptive strike on our part against any of these countries would be effective. Right now it would be our only defense against being nuked by them if a crisis turns really ugly. If you don't think our military planning regarding Korea during this current crisis doesn't include nuking the location of the one or two nukes (assuming the CIA knows their location) as a last resort during a war you are naive. And if you don't think that this president (or ANY president) wouldn't use that option if he *thought* the likely alternative was several thousand American and several million South Koreans being reduced to glowing cinders you are very much mistaken. The absense of another alternative is much likely to cause us to rush into using an nightmare option which can only work if we beat them to the punch. Our options in a really nasty crisis with a minor nuclear power could narrow down very quickly to "nuke them... it's the only way to be sure". In the next decade we have no idea what kinds of crises we may be involved in. China is very close to invading Taiwan (which is certainly advanced enough and desperate to have their own nuclear program), A nuclear war between Pakistan and India is frighteningly likely. A preemptive strike by Isreal against Iran or Iraq (whichever gets nukes first) or vise versa will be a real possiblity by the end of the decade. How will we be involved, at what risk to our troops or our mainland (China can already hit us, N. Korean missile development which they will sell to the highest bidder is getting very advanced). I for one would rather we have options other than either rolling over to who knows what nightmares or unleashing a nightmare ourselves.

    5. Re:Missile Shield by mikerich · · Score: 5, Informative
      That treaty had an exit clause that we chose to excercise. You can disagree with the policy but we are not doing anything "despite signing a treaty" nor are we "breaking a treaty." We have fulfilled every requirement of the treaty. In either event the treaty did not bar research only deployment in more than one location. (We never deployed any ABM systems despite being allowed by the treaty to do so in one location - IN SOVIET RUSSIA they chose to protect Moscow with an ABM system)

      Sigh, yes you did deploy a system. It was called Safeguard, started in 1969 at two sites, one in Montana one at Grand Forks in North Dakota. Additional sites were planned in Wyoming and to protect Washington DC.

      The signing of the ABM agreement in 1972 limited the USSR and USA to two sites for ABM systems and a total of 100 missiles. The US abandoned plans for Safeguard in Wyoming and Washington DC. Shortly afterwards, the USSR and the USA agreed a further codex to the ABM Treaty limiting themselves to a single site, either around the nation's capital or around a ICBM site.

      The Soviet Union chose to protect Moscow with the GALOSH system. The US chose Grand Rapids and abandoned all work on other sites.

      Safeguard was declared operational in early 1975 and reached its full deployment of 100 missiles later that year.

      In October 1975, Congress declined to continue to pay for the upkeep of Safeguard and the project was dismantled from 1976 onwards.

      Your argument about MAD is weak in that you seem to assume that all of the nuclear powers out there, with the exception of the United States are much more willing to use these weapons, whilst on historical grounds it has been the United States military which has countenanced the use of nuclear weapons in a series of conflicts. Richard Rhodes' 'Dark Sun' gives a whole series of deliberately provocative actions by American forces during the Cold War that very nearly ended in disaster.

      All of the countries out there know what the use of nuclear weapons means. None of them are so stupid as to threaten the United States with the handful of weapons that they possess. Any American retaliation would mean annihilation. Yes North Korea is run by an evil man - but he's not insane enough to fire a missile at America.

      Those countries faced with any ABM system have one easy remedy. Assuming that few, if any countries out there can defeat America technologically, the only solution is to build more nuclear missiles with multiple warheads. History will repeat itself, except it won't be the US versus the Soviet Union, it will be dozens of countries proliferating advanced weapons like crazy.

      Then I'd argue with your claim that the system would decrease the chance of nuclear conflict. The US and UK have already said that they would use nuclear weapons against a non-nuclear opponent that they believed was going to use chemical or biological weapons. We have already lowered the threshold for our countries exploding nuclear warheads. President Bush has approved money to the Department of Defense and Department of Energy for the development of 'bunker buster' nuclear warheads - to be used to destroy hardened underground bunkers in an otherwise non-nuclear war. We are already foreseeing new uses for nuclear weapons, they are no longer being seen as the ultimate protection against attack.

      And as the Devil's Advocate in Chief here, I have to ask - why shouldn't other countries have the right to the ultimate protection? We seem to need it to uphold our national interests, why should Iran and Iraq be denied the same choice. Its quite clear that North Korea can feel completely justified in its development of nuclear weapons - the West has excluded any attack on the country and chooses a diplomatic solution. Saddam Hussein must be kicking himself that he didn't wait a couple of years before invading Kuwait under the protection of a nuclear bomb.

      Finally, we have to consider the (hopefully remote) possibility of an American government that is belligerant, that chooses to threaten other countries with nuclear conflict in the knowledge that it has a working ABM system. Let's hope it never happens, but ABM can be seen as part of an offensive capability.

      But let's be honest, NMD is just a Bush pork-barrel pay-back to the defence contractors who poured so much money into his election campaign. At the end of the day I doubt they care very much whether it works on not, just as long as the money keeps pouring in.

      Best wishes,
      Mike.

    6. Re:Missile Shield by overunderunderdone · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sigh, you're right about deploying a system and I actually knew that and wasn't thinking of it (From what I understand my father actually did some work on this system). To be fair though a system that was deployed and abandoned the same year doesn't really seem worth much consideration.

      All of the countries out there know what the use of nuclear weapons means. None of them are so stupid as to threaten the United States with the handful of weapons that they possess. Any American retaliation would mean annihilation. Yes North Korea is run by an evil man - but he's not insane enough to fire a missile at America.

      Many of the nations we are talking about are not exactly the most stable, In North Koreas case neither is the individual in charge. Sure none would intentionally precipitate a crisis that leads to a nuclear exchange but it is naive to suppose that they wouldn't under any circumstances or to suppose that they have the wisdom to avoid those circumstances. Take North Korea for one example - the population is starving off by the hundreds of thousands, China has seen a sharp increase in the number of refugees despite the fact they are repatriated as a matter of course and usually killed or tortured & put into concentration camps. The regime is strong but brittle and has never shown any concern for the deaths of millions - what desperate risks might such a regime be willing to take to preserve itself? A war might be good for moral, a successful invasion of the south might change the situation on the ground in the north? With the US and South Koreas technological superiority such a move would probably be doomed but maybe they figure sheer numbers, suprise and speed could effect a fait accompli before the US could intervene? When their strategem's flaws are revealed with a massive counter attack would they stay their hand or attempt to cauterise the invasion route with a nuclear attack? Would we be so fearful of that possiblity that we preempt? The world is not a stable place, things change in unpredictable ways - history is NOT over no matter what Franicis Fukuyama says. It's getting interesting and that is a very bad thing.

      And as the Devil's Advocate in Chief here, I have to ask - why shouldn't other countries have the right to the ultimate protection?

      In short, because if they get them they might nuke us, our allies or each other. As a moral issue? As an issue of "rights"? or "fairness"? Since when has international politics dealt with such issues? I'm not really so concerned about being fair to North Korea or Sadaam Hussein who don't seem to hold morality, fairness or rights in very high esteem when dealing with their own people or their neighbors. I suppose it's only "fair" that when dealing with those regimes those pleasant concepts that don't trouble their thinking don't trouble ours either.

      I have a foster brother from Cambodia. He was a young teen when he escaped the killing fields - his experiences make me less sanguine about insane Maoists getting the bomb as being "only fair" and I am a little less tolerant of the moral equivalence and lack of seriousnes about the risks involved that underlay such "fair minded" reasoning.

      Another argument is that many of the countries that are currently developing this technology don't have the social or political maturity to have developed it on their own without the seepage of technological advancement beyond their native capabilities from countries that ARE more socially and politically advanced. (I may be accused of racism for this argument but it is really culturalism (if there is such a term)) The technological explosion in the west that produces such weapons is made possible by social and cultural and political forces and structures that have other advantages that mitagate against the use and abuse of such weapons. If you don't believe me try having a peace march protesting government policin downtown Bagdad or Pyongyang - try casting a vote against the chosen policy in either of their parliments etc. or just try opening a business without masses of money to bribe local officials. The ideas that the law is superior to the ruler, that government is accountable to the governed, that individuals are accountable to a law superior to clan kinship, the dictates of honor or loyalty to the "supreme leader" are all ideas that on rare occasions are imperfectly realized here but are *completely* alien in some of the nations striving to master a very dangerous technology their culture could never have developed on it's own. Think of it as the "prime directive" arrogant - damn straight, but also prudent and less likely for everybody to end up glowing in the dark.

      It seems sometimes that those "against" nuclear ware (as though anyone is FOR it) aren't really against it as such - they seem perfectly fine with nuclear weapons in the hands of anyone other than the western powers - especially the USA. I am deeply worried about our policy towards Iraq but it ultimately is a very aggresive policy of non-prolifieration. Our more tender non-prolifieration policy towards N. Korea obviously didn't work and our more tender non-prolifieration policy towards N. Korea now is the result of the earlier policy not working.

      The USA is not the only actor on the world stage - nations are not developing Nukes just because of us but because of their own squabbles and rivalries. China developed nukes and that made it imperitive for India to have nukes which made it imperitive for Pakistan to have nukes. North Korea has nukes and if we listen to the pacifist left and isolationist right we will pull out of South Korea, without the security guarantee of a few thousand US troops on a "tripwire" and a Nuclear opponent South Korea will be tempted to develop nukes, Japan too will be tempted all of which will lead China to enlarge their stockpile. Iran is on a crash program to develop nukes. How long would it take various Arab nations to respons in kind to the shia Persian threat? What are they already doing about the more real Isreali threat" Iraq is likely doing *something* would the Saudi's sit out? Would Egypt? Regardless of what we do proliferation will increase exponentially as various rivals pop up with the nuclear option. Right now some of the most advanced nations aren't bothering because of the USA's conventional security guarantees but will that be enough now that our slaveish desire to avoid offending Pyonyang reveals such guaranatees as toothless in the face of a nuclear opponent? As proliferation increases and various complex "balances of power" are established and increasingly unstable, incompetant, corrupt regimes are involved I think it is very likely that we will see nuclear war in our lifetimes. Hopefully, it will not involve us but that is a real possiblity and one we should be prepared for.

  4. Oh goody, no civillian collateral damage (!) by RMH101 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Anyone want to bet how high a percentage of ordinance dropped on Iraq is going to be good old-fashioned, dumb heavy lumps of metal filled with explosives? This and other media fluff about smart weaponry seems to be designed to present war as a videogame...

    1. Re:Oh goody, no civillian collateral damage (!) by glesga_kiss · · Score: 3, Insightful
      This and other media fluff about smart weaponry seems to be designed to present war as a videogame...

      Yup. The news media can be explained simply in one word. Ratings.

      People like smart weapons, so the media shows them. People like watching disasters and war, so the media shows them. Best personal analogy is slowing down to take a nosy at a car wreck.

      If television news is your primary source of "news", then you simply don't have a clue.

    2. Re:Oh goody, no civillian collateral damage (!) by Boiotos · · Score: 4, Informative
      Precision-guided bombs made up nine per cent of the weapons dropped in the Gulf War. This time, the figure would be well in excess of 60 per cent, allowing more effective bombing with fewer total aircraft, officials say.

      Taken from a useful set of articles over at CBC News, including one on new weapons which mentions the microwave bomb. CBC's reporting tends to be less enthusiastic about things military.

    3. Re:Oh goody, no civillian collateral damage (!) by SkyTech12 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually according to this article in the Daily Standard.

      "After watching dozens of such slam-cam clips, most observers thought precision munitions were the go-to weapon during the Gulf War, but during Operation Desert Storm, of all the bombs dropped over Iraq, only 20 percent were "smart." And in fact many of those missed their targets because of weather problems or malfunctions. Saddam's destruction of Kuwaiti oil fields late in the war foiled the laser guidance systems of many because the smoke deflected the laser energy the bombs homed in on.

      But if America goes to war again in Iraq, close to 100 percent of its bombing sorties will be conducted using smart bombs. And this time, they'll be smarter. Advances in laser technology, targeting systems, and the now ubiquitous global positioning satellite system have revolutionized how America conducts war from the air--and, in many cases, the ground.

      During the Gulf War, pilots had to calmly keep a laser trained on their target and wait for another plane's bombs to follow the beam to the bull's eye. Today, targeting pods attached to an aircraft's wings can keep their eyes on the target while a pilot zigs and zags his way out of trouble. A laser-guided bomb dropped on Baghdad during this war will reach its target even during the most severe defensive maneuverings.

      However, it's the GPS-guided bomb that has truly changed the face of air-to-ground warfare. An inexpensive retrofit to existing "dumb" bombs, the Joint Direct Attack Munition, or JDAM, literally screws onto the tail and around the belly of a conventional 1,000 or 2,000 pound unguided bomb, making it in many cases more precise than a laser-guided bomb. The pilot simply programs in the GPS coordinates of a target, sometimes broadcast to air crews from ground forces by radio, and the bomb glides its way to the target, day or night, in clear skies and stormy weather. There are no laser beams to bend or bounce, just the steady signals of America's GPS constellation beaming their coordinates from space.

      So apparently we will be using smart tails strapped to dumb bombs, it works for me.

  5. Re:So why are they not used? by sboyko · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The first thing that comes to mind is what they would do to enemy pilots.

    --
    SCO, Microsoft, P2P, what's your hot button?
  6. not 'totally harmless to humans' by tolan-b · · Score: 4, Insightful

    people with pacemakers, or anyone nearby on life support or similar would still be affected.

  7. Coldbringer? by OldStash · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This weapon is totally harmless to people and could be used in situations where hitting targets could result in civilian casualties

    I don't think any army has ever been overly concerned with civilian casualties. The real boon for this is that it leaves strategic buildings intact for use by the bomb's owner.

    1. Re:Coldbringer? by assaultriflesforfree · · Score: 4, Funny

      Righto. My guess is that, if this thing ever comes to be reality, they'll start using it on the military targets and save the bombs for the hospitals, schools, trains, and Fox.

  8. Good against computerized enemies... by kahei · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...not so good against the USA's actual enemies, i.e. 20 beardy guys with assault rifles in a cave. Still, if war ever breaks out with Taiwan or Belgium or somewhere, these things will rock!

    On the other hand, the scary robot plane in the picture is COOL.

    --
    Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
    1. Re:Good against computerized enemies... by Doctor+Hu · · Score: 2, Funny
      ...not so good against the USA's actual enemies, i.e. 20 beardy guys with assault rifles in a cave. ...
      Nah, for them all you need to do is just drop a few tons of high explosive from a great height. Works every time. Um, provided the cave isn't really deep. Or, um, not on your target list because it's, um, too well hidden. Or empty because the beardy guys were passing the hookah around one evening, as you tend to do when you're holed up in a cave with no TV to denounce as an instrument of the infidels, and they wondered, hey, what would The Great Satan do, and top of the list was that he'd probably drop a few tons of explosive on them from a great height, so they decided that sitting out the campaign in neighboring Pakistan had a lot to recommend it.

      I'm not trawling for +1 funny points here, nor indulging in knee-jerk anti-US sentiment: successfully taking the fight to a group as amorphous as, for example, Al-Qaida which has no intention of cooperating with your preferred choice of battleground is hard. I just wish I could be more confident that the activities and emphasis that have been made public so far aren't the whole of it.

  9. Soviet EMP Devices by fuzzybunny · · Score: 3, Interesting


    I seem to remember reading about a Soviet 50 megaton nuke. A warhead of that size wouldn't be usable against ground targets, as the force of the blast would cause it to bury itself and reduce the actual damage--or something. I'm no physicist.

    Anyway, the upshot was that these things would be far less economical in terms of distributed damage than lots of small MIRV'ed warheads.

    Instead, supposedly, a Soviet nuclear attack would have been designed to blanket the US with a nationwide series of mega-EMP pulses prior to actual ground target attacks.

    I couldn't find a good link, but a description of some Russian/Soviet delivery vehicles is here

    --
    Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage
  10. A few zeroes missing by sboyko · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Much of the work into developing this next-generation weapon is being done at the High Energy Research and Technology Facility.

    The $9m lab is located in a canyon in the Manzano Mountains, part of the remote Kirtland Air Force Base in New Mexico.

    I wish they would check their figures before releasing stories. Could you possibly build a lab like this for 9 million dollars?

    --
    SCO, Microsoft, P2P, what's your hot button?
  11. Re:So why are they not used? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative
    In the first place, short of a nuclear blast, EMPs are in practice difficult to generate. Most of the proof-of-concept HERF stuff I've seen tends to be impractical for actual battlefield usage. Fortunately. See my other notes below.

    In the second place, how "harmless" do you suppose these things are if they land next to a hospital full of electronic monitoring equipment? Or if an EMP was set off in the middle of Wall Street?

    In the third place, given that the USA has one of the most automated militaries in the world, they'd better hope that Saddam isn't working on the same things!! Ever wonder what a close-range EMP would do to an F-16 at 10000 ft? (yes, I know they're shielded from EMPs, but it's a lot easier to make a 10x stronger EMP than to put 10x the shielding in place)

    Finally, keep in mind that these things won't affect any plain old mechanical or chemical reactions, so an AK-47 will keep firing even if an EMP weapon lands right next to the firer. These things can't do everything, and they sure as heck can't win a battle for you.

  12. Not quite EMP by creepery2kplus · · Score: 5, Informative

    This not quite an EMP weapon which usually destroys by causing induction and other similar effects. It's more of a maser (m(icrowave) a(mplification by) s(timulated) e(mission of) r(adiation)) which is tuned to silicon instead of water (microwave oven at home). The implied precision that is needed again indicate more in the nature of a uni-directional energy weapon (laser, pulse laser and ilk) rather than a pulse surge weapon system (HERF gun, e bomb, nuclear EMP warheads, dazzlers).

    1. Re:Not quite EMP by briancnorton · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's really hard to amplify mass, as it is not energy. A maser is in fact a coherent beam of Microwaves

      --

      People who think they know everything really piss off those of us that actually do.

  13. Re:So why are they not used? by ideonode · · Score: 2, Insightful

    From the article:
    And US officials have hinted that new developmental weapons technology could be used in an attack on Iraq

    Maybe their time has come.

  14. Tempest hardened .... by hopbine · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Surely some form of tempest hardening - shielding the equipment in a faraday cage - would effectively protect the equipment (and cats). The article points out a microwave oven, thats just doing the reverse, putting the energy inside a faraday cage. I know that some buildings are shielded in Ottawa, but that has more to do with spying than than anything else.

    --
    Semper ubi sub ubi
  15. Collateral Damage by jonhuang · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Despite the emphasis on "totally harmless to people", it should be obvious that this isn't a true smart weapon either--imagine an accidental flyby over a hospital, airport, pacemaker, or computerized traffic light.

    Still, this is a valuable weapon, and better than carpet bombing. I just don't want to see it (like sanctions) become a supposedly "bloodless" way to achieve foriegn policy goals.

  16. Very light on information. by Noryungi · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The article itself is very light on information and does not offer anything other than pure speculation: "A micro-wave weapon may be under development... This weapon may be completely harmless to humans", yadda, yadda, yadda.

    I think the United States are kind of pushing up one notch the "psychological warfare" and disinformation on Iraq.

    This is not a troll: if you were going to launch a war soon, you'd want your enemies to believe you have several new, exotic and deadly weapons in your arsenal.

    In the first Gulf War, Some Iraqi soldiers surrendered as soon as they saw unarmed drones. Drones are now armed, and dangerous, and some Yemenis terrorists learned this the hard way (meaning they were blown to smithereens by a Predator-launched missile.

    Add some rumors -- before the conflict -- on how some drones may now carry some super duper microwave weapons and watch even more Iraqi soldiers surrender real quick when a drone flies over them...

    --
    The right to offend is far more important than the right not to be offended. (Rowan Atkinson)
    1. Re:Very light on information. by essaunders · · Score: 4, Informative

      The Iraqis surrendered to the drones because the drones were being used as spotters for the artilery (or ship guns). They knew that when they saw/heard a drone they would soon get shelled.

  17. Next-gen battlefield by PFactor · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The next generation of battlefield will be one where each side tries to take out their guidance systems, command and control systems, game boys, etc. The victor in such a battlefield will be the boys with the best toys, which is the point of development programs like the one in this article.

    However, military planners should remember places like Afghanistan (vs USSR) and Vietnam (vs USA), where superior technology didn't mean certain victory. In fact, guerrilla operations by the natives of those contries killed and maimed a great many young men from the "2 world powers". The natives were armed with nothing more than assault rifles, low yield explosives, a few RPG's, and ALOT of desire to succeed.

    When you build a system like this, it had better be protected on the back end, or some 17 yr old enemy sapper with a death wish will blow your control systems to hell. Also, you run the risk of thinking that your enemy thinks about these systems the same way you do. Maybe he builds these systems knowing you'll attack them, so he lays a trap.

    And, while you are busy figuring out why that command center was undefended, you have a couple thousand guerrilla fighters rush your base of operations. Checkmate.

    --
    Don't believe anything I say. I crash test crack pipes for a living.
  18. New term: Economy Busters by AppyPappy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Everyone has heard of "Bunker Busters". Imagine if terrorists cooked off one of these on Wall St. Of course, making a nuke is probably much easier than building one of these but it could have a devastating impact without the messy media images of fried bodies.

    I hope we havn't invented the means of our own destruction.

    --

    If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem

    1. Re:New term: Economy Busters by ianscot · · Score: 3, Insightful
      without the messy media images of fried bodies.

      To observe the obvious: the terrorists involved in 9/11 have no objection to "messy" images. They did target the WTC as a symbol of the US's economic hegemony, and the Pentagon as a symbol of the military -- but their specific targets had everything to do with inflicting lots of casualties in a "spectacular" way, too. "Terror" has a lot to do with bodies.

      Forgive the lack of a clever twist on this post, but there it is.

      --
      "Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
  19. oooh, scary by new+death+barbie · · Score: 4, Funny
    Imagine the damage this weapon could inflict on the enemy when all of their popcorn pops at once.

    --

    It's supposed to be completely automatic, but actually you have to press this button.

    1. Re:oooh, scary by sczimme · · Score: 4, Funny

      Imagine the damage this weapon could inflict on the enemy when all of their popcorn pops at once.

      Well, if that 80s vintage documentary showed me anything, it's that...

      the house will rapidly fill up with popcorn

      the windows will break outward, followed by popped corn pouring out of said windows

      the front door will burst open in slow motion, and one of the more annoying antagonists will be engulfed in a mass of kernels as he is propelled down the front steps

      eventually part of the foundation will collapse, and the house will list about 15 degrees to port

      local townsfolk will rejoice in the corny goodness (also in slow motion)

      Terrifying stuff, that is.

      --
      I want to drag this out as long as possible. Bring me my protractor.
  20. Make your own for $150 by Moderation+abuser · · Score: 4, Informative


    EMP "rifle"

    http://www.plans-kits.com/

    Know all those speed cameras? Congestion charging cameras? CCTV cameras? Whap, they don't work anymore.

    --
    Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
  21. Early reports ... by smallfries · · Score: 4, Funny

    ... indicate that the chinese have already been experimenting with defenses against microwave weapons. So far the most reliable is a metal spoon ...

    --
    Slashdot: where don knuth is an idiot because he cant grasp the awesome power of php
  22. And in WWI by MosesJones · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Thousands of people died in a day.

    In ONE battle (the Somme) 60,000 Allied forces died on the first day. This doesn't include the numbers that the Axis lost.

    Part of the point of weapons such as this is to disable the military and reduce the number of dead, this leads to a less pissed off defeated nation than one that has just seen a large portion of its population killed.

    Of course given that Iraq use Scuds which have bugger all electronics in them, and North Korea still appear to be point and fire propulsion rockets this would be really effective against the British and the French should they decide to attack the US.

    Sort of like the Stealth Fighter, Iraq has bugger all radar that is any good but Stealth Fighters and Bombers still fly at 30,000 feet because Iraqi air defences don't reach that high. But to the British Navy's Radar a golf ball flying at 30,000 feet and 500mph is still at target that can be blown out of the sky.

    --
    An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
    1. Re:And in WWI by wazzzup · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Exactly! I hope it didn't appear that the implication of my post was that it would be desireable to go back to WWI type fighting. It was meant to point out a very undesireable scenario to anybody that knew any history about WWI. WWI was the most miserable war ever fought, rampant disease from laying in trenches months at a time, chemical weapons, massive daily death tolls - that's why it was termed "the war to end all wars".

      I understand you're point about the British and French attacking the U.S. but there is plenty of modern-enough Soviet hardware floating around out there for HMP to still be an effective weapon. Also consider that someday, these nations/organizations will have access to technology that the wealthy Western nations possess today so development of these weapons is still a worthy endeavor.

      Interesting point about military destruction without death toll results in a less pissed off nation in defeat. This may end up being true but the first thing I thought of was what led to the rise of Hitler and the introduction of WWII - an economy in shambles and a people that felt humiliated about their defeat in WWI and the resulting terms of surrender they were forced into by the Allies. What I envision is a scenario where, sure there were less casualties in the war but now they are left to repair a nation in defeat and no modern day machinery and electronics to rebuild or restart a peacetime economy. The end result to a war fought with these weapons may end up being quite similar to one that was fought with conventional weapons.

  23. Scary Threat by tourettes · · Score: 3, Interesting

    For about 55 to 60 years now, one of the biggest threats in the world was the threat of a nuclear attact. One bomb that could wipe out a city in one shot. Just imagine the impact of a wide-spread EMP attack. Obviously it doesn't come close to the devestation of a nuclear weapon, but how much would our lives change? I'm not up much on the technicals of EMPs, but, would this basically wipe out almost any magnetic storage medium we use for computers? Imagine an entire city, like Washington for example, wiped clean of all it's data, this could set back a country during war-time a lot.

    --
    tourettes
  24. Microwave aircraft HAVE cooked people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    My father repaired aircraft during the Vietnam War. There was once an accident on his base involving one of the recon aircraft (do not recall its name at the moment). It seems the high-powered microwave transmitters had been left operational when a technician went to service the plane, and he was badly injured (burned) as a result of stepping to close to the underside of the plane.

    So even if the microwaves are supposedly tuned to silicon instead of water, I am highly sceptical of any focused microwave energy being 'mostly harmless.'

  25. I find it interesting... by dfj225 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    that the article mentioned that we could use these weapons in the war on Iraq...I didn't realize that we are at war with Iraq yet...

    --
    SIGFAULT
  26. Re:So why are they not used? by fobef · · Score: 5, Interesting

    While studying wave physics at the university, a (swedish) defence researcher held a lecture about research in EMP weapons. The ones he had studied were supposed to be used in road blocks to stop vehicles, and when they tested it, it worked very well, and the vehicles were beyond repair.

    However, when they tried to use it in Bosnia, the vehicles there were so old, it had no effect because it targeted the electronics in the cars, and the ones they used were too old =)

  27. "Good" weapon? by sm.arson · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm generally opposed to murder in all it's forms (death penalty, war; holy, political or both) so it's good to see people spending time on weapons that essentially don't hurt anyone.

    I'd much rather live in a future where police are armed with neutralizing weapons a la Minority Report, rather than walking around with god damned AK-47s like the police in many countries do today.

    If I had to choose, I'd rather be made to puke with a vomit stick by accident than be shot through the heart over a simple Halloween misunderstanding...

    --
    for great justice, this sig has been moved
  28. almost howstuffworks.com... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative
  29. Nicola Tesla by little1973 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    AFAIK, Tesla was the first to think about EMP as a weapon (I think he called it Death Ray). He even came up with the idea of an EM shield which act as an impenetrable wall against any kind of attack.

    --
    Government cannot make man richer, but it can make him poorer. - Ludwig von Mises
  30. Totally Harmless To People? by Helmholtz+Coil · · Score: 3, Informative
    The interesting thing is that to make it harmful all you have to do is boost its power. This new weapon is essentially the same as the microwave crowd control devices that've been in the news for a couple of years now, the only difference being power levels and how the microwaves are projected.

    Basically in both cases the default configuration is to be nonlethal, but it wouldn't take a whole lot to change that in a hurry.

  31. Re:Missile Shield - ballistics by caveat · · Score: 4, Informative

    A balistic weapon traveling at 4,600 MPH can't change direction much in 300M

    No, a ballistic weapon can't change direction at all once it's fired. That's what separates a ballistic weapon (bullet, shell, dumb bomb) from a 'smart' weapon (guided missile, smart bomb); the guided weapons are just that, while a ballistic weapon relies soley on it's own momentum from firing and gravity to put it on target (remember projectile motion from Phys101?). 'ballistic missiles' aren't technically truly ballistic, with final-stage guidance on the MIRVs, but the launch to suborbit is.

    --

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
  32. War is clean these days (hah!) by moc.tfosorcimgllib · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How many casualties have you actually seen in the news these days? From afghanistan or elsewhere?
    Watch for casualty pictures in the news during the next gulf war (I hope not, but I'm a pessimist these days). Chances are, you might hear about casualties, but look for any actual dead bodies. They will not show them, because then it makes the war "real", and dirty, and unpopular.

    1. Re:War is clean these days (hah!) by Jester99 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, have you read Time magazine lately? Every article reporting back on the Israel situation (another suicide bombing, another army incursion, etc) is peppered with images of destroyed homes, dead bodies, body parts, etc. Not pretty stuff.

    2. Re:War is clean these days (hah!) by mikerich · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Footage from the last Gulf War is pretty darn gruesome. The "highway of death", shelled-out tanks, etc. There doesn't appear to be much censorship there.

      Trucks and tanks are one thing, but what about the dead people - they are much less visible in photographs of the Gulf War. There was a gruesome picture originally published on the front page of 'The Observer' here in the UK. It was an Iraqi soldier still at the wheel of his truck, he had essentially been reduced to charcoal but was still recognisably a human being.

      The paper received an enormous amount of criticism from elsewhere in the media and many American news organisations refused to reprint the photograph.

      I'm sure its out there on the Net, but it is so disturbing I really don't want to go and find out.

      Best wishes,
      Mike.

  33. i think we used this weapon on the BBC because... by hangingonwords · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "is being developed by the US Air Force according to this BBC News article."

    well according to TIME magazine theses weapons have apparently already been developed and plan on being used in iraq. there was a little article in the recent issue about them titled "america's ultra-secret weapon". frankly if this is considered ultra-secret i'd hate to see what they consider double-ultra-secret!

    --
    fact: microsoft > linux
  34. Re:High Power RF @ Microwave Freqs == Heat by Weirsbaski · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Harmless to humans. Yeah, okay. Go ahead and stand near one of these, go for it! Be a gerbil.
    OOPS! That's what the US government uses the military for! Couldn't forget about that, could we?


    I'd guess that the US gov't actually uses other countries' militaries for this purpose.
    We were wondering what would happen if we used a 'daisycutter' as an offensive weapon (instead of clearing terrain) right?

    --

    I am not a sig.
  35. Does not hurt humans ? Yeah not 'directly' but... by WickedWilly · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Are we forgetting that there are people who carry around things like pacemakers ? And what if this thing goes off and it hits a nearby hospital or something. They don't ask you to turn off your mobile phone for nothing in those places.

    Excellent way to stop the Terminator though :)

  36. Re:So why are they not used? by ThaReetLad · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Rubbish. EMP's are easy to generate. Some time ago New scientist magazine published details of how to make an EMP bomb out of a metal tube, a long bit of coiled wire, a battery and some explosive. All you have to do is wrap the wire around the explosive, insert it into the metal tube makig sure the two are kept apart by insulators, attach the battery and let it go BOOM. So long as the explosive explodes progressivly from one end to the other, you should get a load of energy quickly compressed into a bit of wire left sticking out of the other end, which then radiates your EMP. Its supposedly fairly easy to built one with a range of a hundred meters or so, which is great for destroying radar, C3 sites etc. Bad at killing people, but that's not what they're for.

    --
    You can't win Darth. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
  37. Re:huh by WoodSmoke · · Score: 2, Informative
    Ok, here we go....

    FACT: During the weapons inspections iin the mid 90s enough Antrax and chemical weapons were found to kill the worlds population 3 times over.

    FACT: At the time this was found, Iraq said that it had NONE.

    FACT: Iraq is the only country to have used Nerve agents/gas in combat. (vs Iran) The effects are still being seen today.

    FACT: Saddam ordered the gassing of his own citizens in Northern Iraq.

    FACT: Iraq consisently denied a Nuclear weapons program throughout the 90s until the former head of said program defected and laid the evidence before the world.

    FACT: During the inspections in the mid 90s, inspectors caught Iraqi officials in the act of driving parts of a Calutron out the back entrance of a facility as the inspectors came in the front. Calutrons are used to refine materials for nuclear reactions.

    Also, see the following link Cdi.org for more information.

    If you have information that contradicts that posted above then please provide it. If not, then please accept the fact that Saddam is not the cuddly teddy bear some would make him out to be.

    WoodSmoke

  38. Over 1MT is wasted by dmaxwell · · Score: 4, Informative

    There is a one megaton threshold of "usefulness" for nuclear weapons. In a surface detonation, the blast from a thermonuclear is powerful enough to send some of the atmosphere above ground zero into space. Once 1MT is crossed it seems that most of the excess force powers this effect leaving less energy for the blast wave and radiation to destroy things OUTWARD of the blast. It isn't as counterintuitive as it seems. Most of the energy output of a bomb is X-rays and gamma radiation. A bomb going off in space is little more than a bright flash and a little puff of gas from vaporized bomb components (It still sucks to be anywhere in the vicinity.).

    The devasting effects we associate with nukes comes from the effects this radiation flux has on the atmosphere. It's like a vastly oversized thunderclap. The radiation instantly heats up a large amount of atmosphere and this is what creates the blast wave and starts a lot of the fires. Of course, there's lots of radiation left over to flash fry things further out. Heat a quantity of atmosphere up enough and it's going straight up in a hurry.

    That isn't to say that there are NO noticable effects of making the bomb bigger but from a military point of view the law of diminishing returns kicks in with a vengence. There is another threshold around a gigaton or so that makes a bomb a planetary threat with some different effects involved (similar to a large asteroid collision) but who wants to set a Backyard Bomb off? It's called a Backyard Bomb because it doesn't NEED a delivery system. You set it off in your backyard and it fries your enemies anyway.

    The 50MT Soviet bomb was the biggest public relations stunt in history. Khruschev literally told Sakarov to make something to "scare the ^$#@ out of the Americans" in time for a conference. It also came from a touch of Texas in the Russian mentality. The worlds biggest church bell sits on the ground somewhere in Russia because no one wanted to build the matching bell tower. It is Tsar Bell (the King of Bells). It is an impressive gesture that is practically useless. Tsar Bomba is same thing: a militarily useless ridiculously oversized weapon intended only as a gesture.

  39. Tubes by Tux2000 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The former soviet union built airplanes (MIG-somenumber, I think) with (radio) tubes instead of sillicon. It was designed to be immune against EMP. A tube does not die if it is hit by EMP, maybe there are some sparks inside, but that's all.

    So at least those planes should be immune against that microwave gun. And perhaps even circuits based on germanium instead of sillicon, because the microwaves are tuned for the wrong material.

    --
    Denken hilft.
  40. pre-war propaganda? by Goose+Bump · · Score: 4, Informative

    it's not very difficult to shield against the effects of this weapon.

    Just for a rough sanity check...

    Decent rigid coaxial cable offers about 100dB of shielding
    . One-million watts = 90dBm, so that would drop it down to -10dBm interference in a shielded signal. Not enough to damage anything, but definately enough to interfere. Bluetooth and 802.11b run at a max of 20dBm and no cars crash outside when I key up the old bit blaster.

    The absorbtion of the radiated power is also an issue. Different circuits absorb different frequencies better than others. If this was a fairly narrowband emission, it would wreak havoc on some things (soft tissue maybe) but not others. If it is very wide band, then you have to jack up your total power so that many different freuquencies have a potent allotment of power.

    It would just be a lot easier to interfere (jam) with guidance systems and radar. And GPS is easy jam. At least that was the FCC's standpoint with respect to UWB. But that's another thread...

  41. Re:High Power RF @ Microwave Freqs == Heat by dmaxwell · · Score: 4, Informative

    A microwave oven is tuned to the resonant frequency of water molecules. This government weapon will be tuned to the frequency of silicon atoms. It'll burn people up close I suppose but be mostly harmless to flesh further out while still frying transistors.

  42. The two major questions about EMPs. Anyone? by iainl · · Score: 4, Insightful

    1) Every description so far makes it sound like its just a case of stockpiling Faraday cages. Surely it can't be that simple to protect against?

    2) If a high power EMP device is as simple to make as several /. posters suggest, and a simple bit of work with some metal in (1) doesn't protect against them, how powerful a battery-powered one can you fit in a 40ft container on the back of a lorry on Wall Street, in the centre of London, or even, say, a suburb of Redmond as an example? This strikes me as a far more useful weapon of Terror than those messy chemicals and biological agents that Frys or Radio Shack wouldn't sell you.

    --
    "I Know You Are But What Am I?"
    1. Re:The two major questions about EMPs. Anyone? by leighklotz · · Score: 2, Funny

      I can assure you -- Wall Street and Redmond are completely safe from any attacks involving lorries. London, of course, is at risk.

  43. Also not "totally harmless to humans" because ... by privacyt · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's more money in the military and less for the American people!

  44. Yes but... by CharlieO · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The problem is the level of shielding needed to protect against low level radiation leaking out of a building is very different from that required to protect sensitive electronics from very high energy radiation.

    The other problem becomes apparent when you think of what tactical targets this may be used against.

    The first stage of any modern war is to blind your enemy and disrupt thier communications - this means they cannot effectively detect your invasion and coordinate a counter attack.

    Currently this is done by an initial attack wave - use radar seaking missiles to destroy air surveilance equipment, cruise/smart bomb/iron bomb to take out communication centers like radio realays and phone exchanges. Maybe use special forces to ensure destruction or imparement of key facilities.

    The problem with all of these is you have to physically destroy the equipment - and this means any person near it.

    Now if you could use an EMP pulse to destroy electronics then you could argue that that presents a lower risk to humans in the target areas.

    The reason that you can't shield this stuff is that radar needs its scanner unshielded to hear its return pulses, radios need unshielded antenna to work, telephone exchanges need miles of unshielded phone cable.

    The way to defend against this is to have backup systems in shielded enclosures that are safe from the initial attack, and then connect and use them after it has passed. This is what was done for the civil defence bunkers in the UK - and I presume elsewhere. If it works anything running or connected at the time is toast.

    So this is where tactically these weapons can be used - unmanned drones can sneak into the terrotary and destroy comms and survielence systems.

    I don't think you could easily get this into a cruise missile - you are going to need a lot of power, probably stored in a capacitor bank to generate a high energy short duration pulse from a directional maser system. Something like the Golden Hawk may do as you have capacity and a large jet turbin to tap for power.

    One thing I don't agree with is that these are 'safe' weapons - no weapon is 'safe' it depends on its tactical use. As outlined above it could be used very effecticely - and of course another attraction is that its multi use rather than trhowing away cruise missiles at half a million dollars a shot.

    One thing I disagree with in the report (and I'm in the UK) is that it would be good for taking out chemical weapon facilities. No its not.

    For a start small scale clandestine chemical weapon manufacture could be carried in small labs by hand - destroying a few PCs, telephones and multimeters doesn't win you anything.

    If you target a large automated plant (if the chemical agents are being made in secret at some generally normal chemcial plant) then you had better hope the control systems are totally failsafe, other wise you are going to release those agents, and other noxious substances, in potentially massive quantities.

    I mean, look at it this way - would you believe that a safe way of disabling a nuclear power station would be to instantly and simultaneously switch off every control system, every safety system, every hardwired multiple backup system - because that is what a weapon like this will do if it works.

    The Russians tried something like that at Cherynobyl - and I think we learned something there.

  45. Avoiding civilian casualties by presearch · · Score: 2, Insightful

    From the article: ..useful in a wide variety of missions where avoiding civilian casualties is a major concern.

    One would think that with the US being the "Good Guys" that avoiding civilian casualties would be a goal of all missions.

    It's more than likely an effective way of preserving the real estate.
    A neutron bomb without the residual radiation problems and nuke escalation issues.

    Megawatts of microwaves?
    It would be too awful to brag about their new weapon in terms of frying people like a hot dog in the radarrange
    but I'm sure that's what Gen. Amana has in mind. How could they resist?

  46. Wouldn't this be useful as a nuclear shield? by tkrotchko · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It my understanding that modern thermonuclear devices are designed in such a way to make them difficult to "explode".

    I don't have the links around any more, but there is a fascinating discussion of nuclear triggers that shows how this is done and why.

    Anyway, the point being, if you had a directed EMP type device and you saw an incoming ballistic missle, wouldn't it be easy to fry the electronics of the missle so the thermonuclear device wouldn't detonate? Sure, you'd have a lot of destructive problems with the missle itself, but I think it would preferrable to have a 10 ton hunk of aluminum dropped on a city than a 10 megaton H-bomb, right?

    --
    You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
  47. Blame the enemy... by telstar · · Score: 4, Insightful
    "How is disabling electronics completely safe for civilians?"
    • If their military chooses to put their military targets among their civilian population, then it's not safe for civilians. If their civilian population chooses to allow their military to be there ... then they should accept the risks. If the civilians have no choice, then we're there for the right reasons.
    1. Re:Blame the enemy... by nuxx · · Score: 4, Informative

      I take it that you either forget or don't know about the US government putting nuclear missle launch sites hidden in rather urban areas? In fact, from where I sit right now (Auburn Hills, MI, a fairly commercial area) there are old launch silos in the wooded parts of the campus of Oakland University, right next door. (See http://members.tripod.com/nikehercules/d-97.html for more information.

      So while I believe you are correct in theory, in practice sometimes the public isn't quite aware.

    2. Re:Blame the enemy... by Guider · · Score: 2, Informative

      Let's deslant this liberal addition. Nike-Ajax (Nike-Hercules, et al) were purely DEFENSIVE, anti-aircraft systems, and were mostly non-nuclear tipped, especially later deployments as use of nuclear warheads for antiaircraft purposes was discouraged. As for being 'hidden,' well, only if you call hiding in plain sight hidden. Their locations were both very easily located and observable. Their placement close to urban/metropolitan areas was a necessity given their primary role: air defense.
      Hiding chemical production plants in downtown hospitals is a far cry from this. I hate liberal hate-spewing.

  48. Can't computers be shielded? by watzinaneihm · · Score: 3, Interesting

    From the article
    The technology behind HPM is based on that used in household microwave ovens

    Now even if the microwave rays are many times stronger and even if you use a directional antenna shouldnt it be easy to stop the rays?
    From a google search i got http://www.provincia.venezia.it/comenius/eu_oven2. htm which says There is a metallic net either inside the plastic panel or inside the glass panel, because the holes of the net are smaller than the length wave of microwave frequencies of about 12,5 cm at 2.5 Ghz. the glass panel is essentially opaque to the microwaves so all the energy of the microwaves is reflected inside the cavity of the oven.

    Or I think you can just use an aluminum foil wrapper around your computer to temporarily stop the rays (atleast till the aluminium starts burning, and then you can have fun) , Anyway how long is a drone going to be able to produce some millions of watts of power ? (746 watts =1 horsepower, I think?)

    --
    .ACMD setaloiv siht gnidaeR
  49. Re:i think we used this weapon on the BBC because. by PhxBlue · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Here's a hint: If the US military considers a project or weapon secret, as they did the F-117 in the mid-80s, you likely won't know about it until the second or third time it's used in combat.

    --
    !#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
  50. anti-gps jammer by lophophore · · Score: 2, Insightful
    There was a news article last week that stated Iraq had acquired some Russian GPS jammers. These have the potential to render smart bombs untargetable, and cause lots of unintended civilan damage when the bombs miss their targets.

    So now you bring out the EMP weapons first, and fry all the GPS jammers. Your smart bombs have been de-lobotomized, and can find their intended targets again. This has the added bonus of wiping out the enemy's RADARs, etc.

    --
    there are 3 kinds of people:
    * those who can count
    * those who can't
  51. why it won't hurt people by nounderscores · · Score: 2, Informative

    No, I think that the idea is to use the magnetic component of the electromagnetic wave to produce eddy currents electric circuits. The short duration of the pulse means that the voltage spike is too brief to produce heating, but is big enough to blow transistors etc.

    Just my 2c of freshman college physics.

    1. Re:why it won't hurt people by n9hmg · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ...and what do you think those eddy currents do to "blow" transistors? They heat and break down the semiconductor junction. The pulse causes heating in the living tissue it hits, too. It's just that this extremely high power is present for only an extremely short time. Thus, the amount of energy is negligible. In electronics, the pulse drives currents in the conductors, concentrating the energy, which is dissipated in the circuit in each spot proportional to the resistance of that spot. The base or gate of a transistor has relatively high impedence, compared to the leads. It is also very small, so that heating happens in a very small area. BAM! the nice arrangement of donors and acceptors freely mixes up, or perhaps even gets seperated as the area evaporates. Even at lower energies, RAMs and flash gets rewritten.
      I've threatened for years to take an old microwave oven, and dump the output of the klystron at the focus of a parabolic dish (would like to use a deep dish, fully enclosing the focal point, for safety), to both ruin the "boom cars", and make their drivers uncomfortable. I'm going to be watching the army surplus stores.

  52. Re:Wrong! by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why should sick and innocent people suffer?

    You do realize that Iraq rapes the wives of political prisoners (with an on-staff professional rapist) tortures its Olympic athletes who fail to perform, and cuts out the tongues of people who criticize the government, right?

    The people of Iraq are already suffering - a few may be accidentally killed during the liberation, but the only thing we know for sure is that if we do nothing the suffering will continue. I know of no liberation in the history of the world that has been causualty-free for the oppressed, but I also know of no liberation in the history of the world where the oppressed have asked their liberators to please go home.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  53. This is precisely why.... by jhines0042 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is precisely why I'm glad I know how to fish, start a fire without matches, and otherwise generally survive in the wild.

    Imagine if you will your world with no electronic devices. Not a lack of electricity, just a lack of devices that are working currently. No computers, no internet, no car, no stop lights, no elevators, no microwave ovens, no pizza deliver, nothing that requires electronic components.

    Could you live in that world were you suddenly thrown into it?

    The super market wouldn't have food for very long and of course everyone instantly becomes a looter.

    Luckily buildings would still be standing. But could you heat and cool your home?

    --
    42 - So long and thanks for all the fish.
  54. Mostly Harmless... or not by SmartGamer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This weapon is totally harmless to people

    What about people with electronic replacement limbs, pacemakers, hearing aids, EKGs, hospital machines...

    --
    Warning: Poster of this comment is a nerd. Just like everybody else here.
  55. Wild speculation + by praksys · · Score: 2, Informative

    Most military hardware (at least the stuff produced by the US, Europe, and Russia) is already built to withstand EMPs. No one will ever use a weapon like this to knock planes out of the sky, or stop tanks in their tracks.

    What it can be used for is for frying radar systems that are switched on, and for frying passive tracking systems that are switched on. For obvious reasons these cannot be shielded against EMPs (ok - if it's not obvious then reason is that a radar system must be sensitive to electromagnetic radiation in order to work).

    Why is this a big deal? Several reasons:

    (1) Ground based anti-aircraft systems have become very small, mobile, and relatively cheap.
    (2) Iraq has taken to placing such systems right next to things that the US does not want to blow up (hospitals, schools, chemical weapons facilities, etc).
    (3) Even stealth aircraft are not entirely invisible to radar. Yes they can slip through a traditional perimiter radar network (i.e. the kind of line of radars that many nations have watching their borders), but they cannot remain undetected if they have to fly right over a radar system, as they would have to do if there is a radar system either at or near to their target.

    So now the US has a method of blinding anti-aircraft defenses without destroying the stuff around them. Given US methods of conducting war (i.e. heavy reliance on air power), and the obvious synergy between stealth and EMP technology, these weapons are a big deal, and I might add there is no obvious or easy way of defending against them.

  56. Just don't let the RIAA get hold of it . . . by 9jack9 · · Score: 2, Funny

    . . . or they'd by EMPing us by the city block.

  57. Re:taiwan not a flashpoint (ot) by overunderunderdone · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't know about the taiwan thing. China is offering taiwan businesses crazy labour and material rates and tempting most buisness onto the mainland...

    I'm sure that is their plan and it has a good chance of working BUT there is a military stick accompanying that economic carrot. China is bulking up it military across the straight and is willing to use it if that gateway to the west gets too uppity. Those pesky voters are wont to do that every few elections. The election of a more vigorously pro-independence candidate could lead to actions even more aggresive than "training excersises" by amphibious troops across the straight and "missle tests" in Tiawans airspace ("Hey Tiawan is just part of our sovereign territory - of course we can conduct missile tests there") Sure everybody wants a slow reintegration of Tiawan accompanied by slow move from mainland totalitarianism to something merely authoritarian and that seems to be what is happening. But a misstep, or a miscalculation - a little too much freedom & independence in Tiawans actions or a little too much saber rattling to keep them in line on China's part. An accidental firing during one of the periodic high tension stand-offs and all bets are off. The leaders of mainland China will tolerate a fair amount but are capable of tremendous atrocities internally and will risk war externally to keep their people in check - and they consider Tiawan their people. Tiawan for their part is willing to (and must as a matter of necessity) dance with China. But they have a first world military against China's third world one and they don't seem likely to just roll over to unreasonable demands either. Aging Chinese plutocrats accustomed to totalitarian control don't seem the best judges of when their own demands are reasonable or unreasonable - as they march towards reunification there is a lot of risk that they will misjudge the attachment that the Tiawanese have formed with democracy and political & personal freedoms and their willingness to risk war to protect them.

  58. Farley Cage?? by multipartmixed · · Score: 2, Informative

    Farley, like the dog on "Fraggle Rock", or Farley as in Chris Farley the dead fat guy, or Farley as in Farley Mowat?

    You could imprison any of them in a bamboo cage fer chrissakes. :)

    OTOH, a device remarkably like the one you described exists. It's called a "Faraday Cage", and is named for British Physicist Michael Faraday, the God Father of Electromagnetism.

    You can even buy "instant cages" made of mu-copper foil -- the Army has a bunch. These cages are slowly replacing the Aluminium Foil Deflector Beanies that the crazy nutbags out there are wearing as countermeasure for the government's mind control rays. Do a google for HAARP if you're in for a good laugh.

    --

    Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
  59. Really bad idea by linux2000 · · Score: 3, Insightful
    The United States developing this weapon is really, really stupid. We've seen our own weapons, and soviet weapons, in the hands of enemy nations before. Our enemies are usually 3rd world nations who could never develop such a thing themselves. India has nukes, Pakistan has nukes, North Korea has nukes, and now we're worried about Iraq having nukes - but who invented nuclear technology to begin with?

    The U.S. Army doesn't "build" such weapons anyway, government contractors do, which are ordinary corporations whose goal is to make and sell products to make a profit and stay afloat. Any old customer will do, so they sell some of these weapons to other friendly nations. Those nations turn around and sell them to somewhat questionable nations. Those turn around and sell them to nations that we would never sell to, such as Iraq (for a huge sum, probably).

    So, now, if we and our enemies both have such a weapon, who will sustain the most damage from its use? The U.S. of course! We are more dependent on electronics guidance systems and computers and radios than any 3rd world nation!

    Iraq/Palestine/Al Qaeda are probably jumping for joy at this news. Dammit.

  60. Grounded Faraday cage? by otis+wildflower · · Score: 2, Funny

    I wonder if the case on my TiG4 would bleed off enough energy to survive one of these things.. I know it absorbs 2.4GHz pretty well!

  61. "'Strap-on' system" by Conspir8or · · Score: 2, Funny

    >The latest technology is a "strap-on" system

    To some, "strap-on" is an apt description of recent US foreign policy ....

  62. The One Downside by saddino · · Score: 2, Funny

    After the initial hit, you need to rotate the target 90 degrees and hit it again.

  63. Re:A lot of these weapons don't actually work. by dildatron · · Score: 2, Funny

    Well, I have never seen a really poor person develop a futuristic weapon that may help us win conflicts with less casualities.

    We need poor weapons developers! Developers develepers developers developers developers...

    --


    If you had nuts on your chin, would they be chin nuts?
  64. Re:A lot of these weapons don't actually work. by afidel · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You know a material that makes a good mirror in the microwave range, please do tell. And if it doesn't get evaporated by the pulse how are you going to redirect it towards the aircraft, AA systems sure have a hard time tracking modern jets. As to your last comment, if we don't at least research new technology we will stagnate and be overtaken, I don't like big government or the military industrial complex but until we have a world at peace I believe my personal freedom and safety lie in the hands of that iron shield.

    --
    There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
  65. EMP already used jan16,1991 against Iraq by oopboy · · Score: 2, Informative

    According to Cybershock (winn schwartau) an EMP payload was used against an Iraqi Air Defense Radar Installation. It was shot from a navy deestroyer in the Red Sea, travelled 450 miles and wiped out the radar center's electronic capabilities.

    "In 1999 US and NATO used EMP and HERF (high energy radio frequency) against the Serbs' electonic infrastructures according to MSNBC" - cybershock

    schwartau testified to congress in june 1991 about HERF guns and EMP/T bombs, mentioning how cheap it would be to build one and take out Wall Street.

  66. A hitech anti hitech weapon by Hognoxious · · Score: 2, Funny

    What a smart idea, when you've got all the technology, and the enemy is armed with spears and rocks.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."