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Tech Firms Fight Copy Protection Laws

buulu writes "CNET is running an article about Alliance For Digital Progress going on the offensive against Hollywood over digital copy protection. The alliance consists of some of the big names: Apple, Cisco Systems, Dell, Hewlett-Packard, Information Technology Association of America, IBM, Intel, Microsoft, Motorola, etc."

64 of 214 comments (clear)

  1. Wait, did i see by Silvers · · Score: 4, Funny

    Microsoft on that list?

    1. Re:Wait, did i see by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful
      A coalition of companies including Apple Computer, Microsoft, Dell Computer, Cisco Systems, Hewlett-Packard and Intel said Thursday that they had joined together to oppose legislation backed by the movie studios that would allow the U.S. government to set antipiracy standards for PCs and consumer-electronics devices.

      Of course Microsoft is in on this - they want to set the antipiracy standards themselves.

    2. Re:Wait, did i see by Oculus+Habent · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Microsoft may sit up and talk about Palladium, but they aren't doing it for the benefit of limiting the rights of the users. If laws are passed requiring copy protection to be built into every new piece of hardware and software, Microsoft loses on two fronts.

      First, sales of newer operating systems will drop as customers, afraid for their individual rights, hold off on upgrading their OS or buying a new PC. This won't be a mass swearing-off of the next-generation of computers, but it will be a noticable dent.

      Second, if laws are passed making copy protection mandatory, Microsoft suddently has to go from saying that is the future to devoting huge numbers of programmers to make it the present. And then what happens when the MPAA sues them for having bugs in their software, and not making the updates automatically install on client machines?

      I like Apple's presentation (at least my view of it) of antipiracy standards. The iPod came out, Apple's own music theft device as some would see it. It doesn't allow you to copy music off of it, though, so you can't share music with it using Apple's software. It comes with a "don't steal music" sticker on it, showing Apple's preference for personal responsibility - something the courts seem to have nearly forgotten.

      --
      That what was all this school was for... to teach us how to solve our own problems. -- janeowit
    3. Re:Wait, did i see by FireBreathingDog · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Then what is Palladium for?

      Microsoft claims it's for providing "safe computing", citing viruses, etc., but does it seem like a coincidence that Microsoft is also currently pitching a DRM system to the entertainment industry? Without something like Palladium, DRM is dead in the water.

      If Microsoft was only worried about susceptibility to viruses, it can solve the problem without having to redesign the entire platform from the chips up...

      Given the effort Microsoft is putting in, Palladium is more about providing additional revenue streams for Microsoft--DRM licensing. Everyone knows Microsoft products are buggy and prone to viruses, but I doubt Microsoft views those problem as immediate to the company's bottom line. But, a cut of the action any time someone buys music or video? That's where the action is...

    4. Re:Wait, did i see by packetgeek · · Score: 2, Informative

      Three words:

      embrace and extend

      If you want new policies shaped to your liking you have to be at the table to make it happen...

      --

      Please be patient, I'm a work in progress! --Alan Jackson
  2. Fun times ahead ? by shayera · · Score: 2

    So at last they see they light, or they just want to appese their stockholders ? Either way, this ought to be fun to watch.

    --
    Venlig Hilsen / Regards
    John Hinge - shayera / .sPOOn.
    "Buffy I love you... Please God No!" S
    1. Re:Fun times ahead ? by RPI+Geek · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I also can't wait to see the outcome of this fight.

      Frankly, I agree with the "Alliance for Digital Progress," as they're calling themselves. They just don't want to slow down progress by putting digital copy prevention in every product (according to their site.

      Yes. pirating happens, but the movie industry is still very strong (and if you don't think "Kangaroo Jack" netting $21.8 million dollars in a weekend is strong, then you need to have your head examined :). Digital piracy - from what I've personally seen living at a RPI - is not such a big problem. There are movies floating around the campus-wide network, but most of the movies I've seen since I came here in the fall of 2000 have been off of a DVD, on TV, on the campus movie channel, or off a videocassette.

      Go for it, 'Alliance for Digital Progress'!

      --

      - "Nobody came out that night, not one was ever seen. But Old Man Stauf is waiting there, crazy sick and mean!"
  3. Apple?! by nevershower · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I think it really odd that Apple is on that list.

    They have been going after Holywood and TV studio business for the past couple of years. I.e. the Purchase of Final Cut Pro, Tremor, Shake, etc.

    --
    Look, ma! I'm a karma whore
    1. Re:Apple?! by zephc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      three words: rip. mix. burn.

      --
      "I would say that 99 per cent of what my father has written about his own life is false." - L. Ron Hubbard Jr.
    2. Re:Apple?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      People who work in the movie industry with computers do not agree with the leaders of the movie industry.

      I am a movie industry employee and I very much fear what they are trying to do.

    3. Re:Apple?! by nevershower · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But that slogan kind of implies that you already have the CDs and can legally rip them, mix them, then burn them.

      --
      Look, ma! I'm a karma whore
    4. Re:Apple?! by neverkevin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      well, if you are in the Hollywood or TV studio biz and you are doing digial editing on your Mac, you want to make sure the digital copy protection isn't going to keep you from working on/copying/distributing/etc your own work.

    5. Re:Apple?! by bsharitt · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well I think that's the whole point of this group. They aren't advocating piracy, they want people to be able to use their own CDs and DVDs how they see fit.

    6. Re:Apple?! by Melantha_Bacchae · · Score: 5, Insightful

      nevershower wrote:

      > I think it really odd that Apple is on that list.

      Apple is the first company I would expect to be on that list. Since the 2002 Grammies, Apple has taken this stand:

      - Intellectual property owners and consumers both have rights that should be upheld.

      - The consumers have a right to manage and listen to their legally acquired music on whatever devices they own.

      - Copyrights should not be violated.

      - Copyright violations (piracy) is a behavioral problem that cannot be solved by DRM.

      - DRM will always be hackable, and is therefore useless.

      The above is taken from various speeches by Steve Jobs and other Apple execs, especially from Steve Jobs' acceptance speech at the 2002 Grammies.

      The companies in the Alliance For Digital Progress represent a broad spectrum with Apple on the end upholding fair use rights and Microsoft on the extreme proDRM end. They are interested in keeping the government out of DRM, so they can resolve the issue between themselves. (With Apple no doubt hoping that many will run screaming from Palladium right to the DRM free Mac.)

      Actually, I'm a bit surprised to see Microsoft there. For a time, they were taking out DRMOS patents and acting like they were going to embrace and extend CBDTPA into a 100% government mandated monopoly for themselves. Looks like either the government or the MPAA wised up and started mumbling something about open standards. When it started looking like Microsoft wasn't going to be ordained the official DRM provider to the US, Microsoft started speaking up against the CBDTPA. It just wouldn't do to have somebody else come up with a standard that Microsoft would have to abide by.

      > They have been going after Holywood and TV studio
      > business for the past couple of years. I.e. the Purchase of
      > Final Cut Pro, Tremor, Shake, etc.

      Apple has sworn to democratize the tools of music and movie making like they once did desktop publishing. The intended audience isn't just privileged members of a movie making or music recording cartel. The intended audience is anybody who wants to make a movie or record a song. That's why they just released a $299 trimmed down version of Final Cut Pro called Final Cut Express. Now even a wedding videographer can use a less expensive version of the program that was used to edit "When Dinosaurs Roamed America".

      "If you legally acquire music, you need to have the right to manage it on all other devices that you own."
      Steve Jobs, 2002 Grammy Awards
      http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0203/0 4.jobs.p hp

  4. Great news! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's good to see so many heavyweights lined up against technology mandates. As Lessig has said, while we often don't like what some of these companies do, we need to support them when they do something right--and going up against Hollywood's lobbying effort is definitely a good thing.

    1. Re:Great news! by Alsee · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Great news!

      No, this group merely wants to fsck us over without congresses involment.

      If you look at this page you'll see their agenda is:

      DTCP (Digital Transmission Content Protection), which protects digital content within the home network environment and prevents unauthorized retransmissions to the Internet;

      This means all home audio and video and computer equipment will LOCK all your media and files. This means if you record something you CANNOT view it when and where you want - an entirely legal and legitimate activity.

      CPRM (Content Protection for Recordable Media), which prevents unauthorized recording of audio and video;

      Which means VCR's and boomboxes whith BROKEN record buttons. It is perfectly legal and legitimate to record stuff.

      HDCP (High-definition Digital Content Protection), which protects video transmissions sent to high-definition digital monitors.

      Which meand they want to make the next generation High Definition TV's more expensive and severely cripple them.

      government must enforce laws against piracy.

      That statement is a bit vague, but I'm willing to wager they are not talking about copyright laws, they are talking about DMCA anti-circumvention law. There are many perfectly legal and legitimate purposes for circumvention.

      companies have invested hundreds of millions of dollars and tens of thousands of engineering hours creating tools that successfully prevent illegal copying of digital content

      Yeah, they spend hundreds of millions on DRM that cripples products and HASN'T WORKED. The idiots could have just PUT THAT MONEY IN THEIR POCKETS AS PURE PROFIT.

      Industry is increasing that investment

      The wildly inflated and almost purely fictional losses to piracy are what, 2 or 3 billion? They've spent hundreds of millions, and plan to increase that. They are going to spend more fighting the problem then any real losses, if they haven't already. They are going to whine about losing money and they are going to stick us with the bill for their spending. And more expensive hardware.

      From another page:

      In December, 2002, the nation?s largest cable operators agreed with consumer electronics industry representatives on a proposal that would protect digital television programming

      Crippled TV. Lovely[sarcasm].

      These companies are pushing for TCPA and Palladium.

      The MPAA and RIAA have the tech companies scared shitless of the TOTALLY INSANE CBDTPA that they are "compromising half way" *cough cough*.

      When someone wants to chop your legs off you don't "compromise half way" and cut one leg off and hand it to him. This "alliance" is cutting one leg off of ALL of us.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  5. This is eyewash... by slashuzer · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Just look at the who's who

    The alliance consists of some of the big names: Apple, Cisco Systems, Dell, Hewlett-Packard, Information Technology Association of America, IBM, Intel, Microsoft, Motorola, etc.

    Yeah right. Microsoft, they are surely concerned about user rights. So are HP (please buy original cartridge, and oh, it's only filled to half capacity). Motorola, hahaha.

    The only reason these companies are "fighting" for user rights is because they don't want Hollywood/Media moguls to dictate them technology.

    On the other hand, they are themselves perfectly willing to incorporate "features" so as to protect the "rights" of their users. Pot. Kettle. Black.

    1. Re:This is eyewash... by Thenomain · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And yet, it seems easier to fight technology than the mass media. I hate to go the way of the "lesser of two evils", but in this instance I'll happily comply.

      That doesn't mean I'll stop fighting for the individuals' rights when the tech does the same things. Sometimes, you just have to pick your battles.

      --
      This now concludes our broadcast day.
  6. MS and HP? by Jason1729 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Aren't they working together to bring about DRM?

    Jason
    ProfQuotes

  7. Good or Bad? by Angram · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The alliance is fighting government involvement, not copy protection. This might look good at first, but could easily hurt us in the end, as I'd expect lots of Microsoft-style copy protection to emerge as a "compromise".

    We could end up with coalition of groups who'll own the only means to access your CDs and DVDs, while other hardware and software companies are left out in the cold with the nerds.

    --

    GL
    1. Re:Good or Bad? by xigxag · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The alliance is fighting government involvement

      Actually, as a group they're fighting just one specific RIAA-endorsed bill, Senator Hollings' proposed CBDTPA. The article brings out that at least one member of the alliance actually favors some sort of government involvement to ensure that the fair use rights US citizens now take for granted will be codified into law.

      --
      There are two kinds of people: 1) those who start arrays with one and 1) those who start them with zero.
    2. Re:Good or Bad? by Angram · · Score: 4, Insightful

      True, but that just makes it all the more tenuous. How well do you think this will turn out? If we're looking at a temporary alliance to fight a single bill, how smoothly will the meetings be? These are competing companies after all, and they'd just love to see each other fail. There could a lot of backstabbing here (companies like Microsoft aren't known for their ethical business tactics).

      --

      GL
    3. Re:Good or Bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny
      The article brings out that...

      Sir, this is Slashdot.

      I must please ask you to refrain from actually reading the article as facts tend to hinder the MS/HP/Motorola/Dell/Whatever bashers out there that are getting worked up as we speak.

      Now please write a 100 times "The penguin is my friend, trust the penguin."
    4. Re:Good or Bad? by xigxag · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I agree there's no question that Microsoft's overall strategy is to use DRM to lock people into its proprietary solutions (and to lock out Linux), and therefore it needs to minimize government involvement so that there is no mandate to allow competing OSes to plug into the WindowsMedia regime, if I might be allowed to express myself in a run-on sentence inspired by a lack of sleep.

      However, regardless of their overarching aims, for now they are pursuing a tactic which is beneficial to those who respect consumer rights. So I hope this particular fight goes well for Microsoft and the entire alliance. We can only hope that this battle is well-publicized and helps to wake people up to the assault on our rights.

      --
      There are two kinds of people: 1) those who start arrays with one and 1) those who start them with zero.
  8. Microsoft?? by Billly+Gates · · Score: 4, Insightful
    The same company that displays a message on my computer saying I need to update my "digital rights management" in order to view a wmv file?

    Maybe they want a non standard drm that only they own and fear if the industry got together and created their own that they would lose the multimedia market. Only microsoft can be the gatekeeper I guess. Isn't this what pallidium was designed for. To enhance security my ass. ITs about hardware level product activation with security marketed as an afterthought after it has been proved that it could provide this function as well.

  9. ... and in other news... by TWX_the_Linux_Zealot · · Score: 5, Funny

    ... Another group has stepped up in the fight against the MPAA and DCMA copy protection. Members include Gateway, Commodore Business Machines, Data General, Sun Microsystems, the Church of Latter Day Saints General Motors, Verizon Wireless, the Dhali Llama, the Vatican, and unlikliest of all the MPAA, according to their web site. Based on the MPAA's use of Microsoft Internet Information Server, their entry into this group is unconfirmed. Still on the fence is the Church of Scientology, who have yet to decide if it's in their best interests to side with the DCMA, or with the anti-copy protection group.

    --

    IBM had PL/1, with syntax worse than JOSS,
    And everywhere the language went, it was a total loss...
  10. Is this a good thing or a bad thing? by KNicolson · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Looking at what they stand for it looks as if these companies are just wanting to implement their own DRM solution (or more likely, solutionS), not have a standard imposed from above by the law or Hollywood.

  11. The Alliance's platform: by BitwizeGHC · · Score: 5, Funny

    "OK, OK, we'll cave in and put DRM chips in every device we sell, just please, pretty please, don't tell Congress on us!"

    --
    N4st0r, trixx0r h0bb1tz0rz! Th3y st0l3 0ur pr3c10uzz!
  12. Re:So, these consortia... by DwarfGoanna · · Score: 2, Funny
    Yes, they give me (and I imagine many other slashdotters) bleeding fucking ulcers.

    --

    "You know why you do not see me styling wit my homies? Because I have no homies!!" -Mojo Jojo

  13. How do we really know what their goals are? by Infonaut · · Score: 4, Insightful
    What if the technology companies actually figure that DRM would stifle the growth of their own industry? It *may* just be that some of the people who run some of these companies have a clue.

    I know, that's not part of the SAW (Slashdot Accepted Wisdom). We all know Slashdotters are far more intelligent than any of these suits, but maybe some of the folks whose companies provide us with technology we can't live without are actually not brain-dead.

    Is their composite track record on DRM really long enough for us to make any sort of valid assumptions about what this consortium will do? They may see the hopelessly backwards media tycoons as an impediment to the continued progression of computer technology.

    While conspiracy theories are well and good on the X-Files and Fox News Specials, I'm inclined to give the technology companies the benefit of the doubt until their actions indicate their true intentions.

    --
    Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
  14. Why Microsoft? Well, because... by Anthony+Boyd · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ...Microsoft just doesn't want any competition.

  15. The irony is most painful... by inode_buddha · · Score: 5, Interesting

    for me, as a day-to-day linux user for several years now. I don't dual-boot, nor do I have any other type of system around. I don't want any other type of system.

    The irony is this: I've noticed that Hollywood seems to have no problems with using open systems (such as linux) for editing and special effects, and then locking down everything in sight after doing their production. This is regardless of the fact that some popular movies are drawn directly from the public domain of some very old children's stories.

    I've noticed that certain tech companies have no problem making sales (even linux-based sales) to various Hollywood companies. I've noticed how tech companies spend a lot of PR on this novel concept of "Open-ness".

    I've noticed how the /. crowd has reacted to DRM, the DMCA, etc.

    And I've noticed that the core developers for any major sub-system and application don't really seem to give a damn about any of the above-mentioned flak; they just keep coding, de-bugging, and doing what they think is right.

    My personal reaction to this percieved irony (hypocrisy?) is this:

    Will they all please sit down and STFU ?!

    I'm not gonna have the least bit of respect, nor will I open my wallet ($$$), until I start seeing people and companies practice what they preach and scream so loudly about. After all, the core developers have been practicing what they've preached for years now. This last fact is evident in the working, day-to-day code.

    --
    C|N>K
  16. Pot, kettle. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Hewlett-Packard?

    "You guys don't want people to copy your content, cutting you out of money. Tough luck with that."

    Maybe Hollywood should return with, "You guys don't want people refilling their ink cartridges, cutting you out of money. Tough luck with that."

    *snort*

  17. Yeah, right by hdparm · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Don't hold your breath, fellow Slashdotters.

    The only aim of this alliance is protection of their revenues. If government decides to legalise copy protection as proposed by Entertainment industry, that would make existing hardware obsolete and new products much more expensive, thus quickly reducing revenue streams. This is what they state on ADP web site, anyway.

    Sure, not all members are technology companies but I have no doubts whatsoever that some of them ( Business Civil Liberties, Inc. Citizens Against Government Waste, Citizens for a Sound Economy, Computer Systems Policy Project, Consumer Alert, Defenders of Property Rights) have already received fund injections, just to appear on that list.

    No surprises here, my friends.

  18. But remember one thing... by dido · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Most of these companies actually lobbied for the DMCA when it came out! Oh the hypocrisy of it all...

    --
    Qu'on me donne six lignes écrites de la main du plus honnête homme, j'y trouverai de quoi le faire pendre.
  19. What about the Linux and BSD companies? by mrs+clear+plastic · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I note with interest that Caldera, Red Hat,
    Slackware, Debian, BSDI, and other Linux and
    BSD companies are not on this list. Why? Am
    I missing something obvious?

    MCP

    --
    Cleara
  20. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  21. You did. Here's why: by burgburgburg · · Score: 4, Informative
    They are part of this because they are part of everything potentially important. If two people in the industry get together, Microsoft will clamor to be number three. Being a part gives them the ability to a) seem like they are supporting whatever view is involved while b) making sure that Microsoft's interests are always served above all others.

    They are specifically part of this because they do NOT want government regulation of this sort of control of digital content. Because they care about their users rights? Of course not! Because if the government is setting the agenda on digital content protection, then Microsoft isn't. Microsoft is all for DRM (WMP9,TCPA,Palladium, etc.). Just on their terms exclusively. They do not want to have to answer to Washington. Only Bill. Always Bill.

  22. What about the idea of by sllim · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Everyone seems so suprised and worried about names like 'Apple', 'Micro$oft' and 'Intel' on this list.
    I'm not surprised at all. As others have said this is about the difference between government mandated digital copyright protection and digital copyright protection coming out of the private sector.

    Consider that the DMCA says that you can't backwards engineer any copyprotection code for any reason or risk jail time. If this is the law, then what is the incentive for stronger encryption and better code?
    All this stuff filters down. Look at the contests to do things like break encryption. Remember when they said we would never break 128 bit encryption?
    Where would we be if it was illegal to try?

    If the government mandates copy protection and passes laws then we end up in that end-game.
    However if we let capitalism and the private sector do the work then we end up somewhere just a little bit more fun. We walk away with new technology, new ideas, a new bread of hackers pressing technology to its limits.
    That is what got us to where we are today.

    And besides if we let the private sector take charge then we are still left with a choice. We will be able to choose not to purchase Palidium enabled hardware/software.

    What is going to happen the first time a motherboard manufacturer has a non-palidium board outsell a Palidium enabled board?

    These are all scenerios that cannot happen if we allow the government to mandate this stuff.

    I know it is like bad medicine, but I support Micro$oft, Intel and Apple and anyone else that opposes the government in this.

    Heck, with the point of view that copy protection is here to say, I say bring on Palidium. At least it is a known evil.

  23. The goverment needs to establish a by PotatoHead · · Score: 2, Insightful

    framework first. I don't care what they fight over so long as my rights are not reduced in the process.

    Most of the big fish want to be able to continue to make the decisions outside the law. Without some hard ground rules we are screwed...

    I see digitalconsumer.org is there, so maybe there is some balance.

    This is also exactly why RIAA backed off as well. They realize that they cannot realistically take away our rights through a lobby, so they punt and go to plan B.

    Contract law.

  24. Re:hm by MalleusEBHC · · Score: 2, Insightful

    how did the propsed legislation even come to be without the support of any of these major companies?

    When Jack Valenti opens his mouth, unfortunately a lot of people in government listen because the MPAA has a ton of money.

  25. actually.. they probably stand for what they say by ebyrob · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Which isn't a lot and isn't exactly consumer rights.

    From the mission statement:
    ADP strongly opposes efforts to make the government design and mandate copy-protection technologies

    But notice they don't say anything about stopping the government from "enforcing" said technologies once the industry has adopted them. They aren't anti-DMCA, they aren't about copyright and patent reform.

    Heck read what they stand for:

    The Alliance for Digital Progress (ADP) strongly supports the protection of intellectual property, including digital content such as movies, music, and software.

    ADP believes that private-sector collaboration among the technology, consumer electronics, and content industries creates the most effective tools to combat digital piracy. These tools provide innovative and concrete solutions that:
    Meet the needs of consumers;
    Succeed in the marketplace; and
    Foster a thriving digital economy.

    ADP believes the proper role of Government is to enforce existing laws against illegal copying.


    Are you a member of one of the industries listed above? I'm not. This is simply a self-serving coalition to try and get the government to stay out of the way and let *them* make the rules.

  26. Intersection with TCPA Members by gehrehmee · · Score: 4, Interesting
    • Dell
    • Hewlett-Packard
    • IBM
    • Intel
    • Microsoft
    • Motorola
    Does this seem strange to anyone else?
    --
    "You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't help" -- Calvin
  27. Fred McClure by raehl · · Score: 4, Funny

    "Hi, I'm Fred McClure. You may remember brother Troy from such films as 'Election: For Purchase' and 'The House: Con Games', and me from such policy positions as 'Herbert Walker's Right Hand' and 'The Winston Policy Group'. I'm here to tell you about protecting your rights with the new and improved 'Alliance for Digital Progress'. Act now and buy one CD burner and get all the music you want for free!"

  28. no, really... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting


    this is a GOOD THING(tm). But, my fellow libertarian geeks shout: "Hey! While on the one hand, M$ and HPQ are lobbying the government to ignore mandated DRM, with the other hand they're selling us Media Center PCs and Windows DRM 9 software!"

    And I respond, "Yes! But if the tech companies can keep the government from mandating DRM, then these DRM technologies will have to compete in the marketplace. And they'll lose!"

    Why do I think they'll lose? Well, we're talking about a marketplace that's already filled with readily available (free) tools for ripping, playing, and sharing video and music. And these tools are in widespread use, and everybody under the age of 30 knows about them. The cat's out of the bag, and any DRM imposed by these companies is simply going to fail. Period.

    For example, let's imagine the destructive word of mouth publicity that Microsoft would have to deal with if the next version of Windows prevented you from ripping CDs to your hard drive. Suppose I'm a typical consumer; I buy a computer with this new OS and I install my favorite MP3 ripper and I try to encode the latest hit single. But I can't. And you live down the hall from me and have a computer still running Win2K (or MacOS!), and you have no problem. Either I'll just give the CD to you to rip and e-mail me and then I'll forget about it, or I'll go do some research as to why this happens. When I find out that Microsoft is trying to prevent me from listening to music that I paid for on my computer, I'll be furious and I'll tell everyone I know to avoid this new Windows like the plague!

    Too many people are already accustomed to ripping and sharing music. KaZaa has more than 3 million users already and growing daily. If even a third of them decides to hold off on upgrading their Windows OS because of M$ DRM in the next version, that's 1/3 of a billion dollars in lost revenue for Microsoft. They'd kill the project right quick after that kind of a beating.

    Frankly, it's too late for DRM on PCs. The cat's out of the bag. (CDs, of course, are a whole separate issue, but no matter what sort of trash they stick on there to confuse your CD-ROM drive, you've still got to be able to play it somehow, and that's where you've got them ;)

  29. RIAA $-$ by Hodr · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And the saddest part, the RIAA most likely puts more money into lobbying congress than all of those others combined. I wonder who will win this fight *scratches head*.

  30. Simple question - what will be worse? by updog · · Score: 2, Interesting
    According to last year's version of CBDTPA, all "digital media devices" sold in the United States or shipped across state lines must include copy-protection mechanisms to be defined by the Federal Communications Commission.

    What is worse, an FCC mandated copy-protection mechanism - or a defacto Microsoft/Intel copy-protection mechanism?

    Unfortunately, it will probably come down to one of these (2) choices, and that will dictate how the studios will distribute their content. As much as I hate to admit it, I think a defacto, industry created copy-protection mechanism is in the better interest of both manufactures as well as consumers.

    That said, I for one won't buy the content if I can't play it under GNU/Linux with an open source media player.

  31. Valenti of MPAA by jsse · · Score: 4, Funny

    "We are not the enemy. We are not at war with the IT community. We are hoping that (future) meetings will produce amiable results..."

    Valenti said, then rotated his head 180 degree, mummered in someone else's voice:
    "If you only knew the power of the darkside..."

  32. Who would you rather fight by jbolden · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Microsoft Palladium even if it occurs at worst will leave you with the choice between some level of lock in and the disadvantages of a nonstandard system (higher hardware costs, difficulty reading various types of digital content...). The government can put you in jail.

    While I don't like either solution I'd much rather battle Microsoft. Palladium without DMCA but the government going after commercial piracy is vastly better than government regulated technology enforced on providers and consummers.

  33. I think a lot of people are misunderstanding by DCowern · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The purpose of this alliance is not to oppose DRM or copyright protection -- it's to oppose laws that mandate certain standards of protection. Basically, the heavy hitters are lining up and telling the govenrment that they don't want the Hollywood or the government telling them how to do their jobs.

    That's why Microsoft, Apple, et al are involved. They have the opinion that they are better judges of what is/is not technologically feasible and appropriate than the government. This isn't at all about user rights.

    This is analogous to me saying that I am against *thinks of controversial topic* laws regulating noncommercial sex between two consenting adults in a private place. I'm against this because I feel I'm a better judge of what's appropriate than the government. It's all about me; a heterosexual male. I'm not necessarily against it because it affects gay rights although it certainly does affect their rights. Now replace me with Apple, Microsoft, et. al., sex laws with copy protection laws, and the end user rights with gay rights. There's your analogy.

  34. They're not even hiding it. by dark-nl · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Their platform is that they should be implementing DRM, without government interference. This is all laid out in the Industry Cooperation Is Good For Consumers page, where they cite DVDs as a stunning example of the success of anti-copying technology.

    The funny thing is that they don't even have to fight the government; this is just the result of the deal the BSA made with the RIAA. I guess the ADP was set up to keep the RIAA honest about its side of the deal.

  35. Has to be good for the over all economy by ToastedBagel · · Score: 2, Interesting

    > the RIAA most likely puts more money into lobbying congress than all of those others combined.

    It will be interesting to see. RIAA might be putting a lot of money, but it works only if the mandatory implementation of copy right function helps over all economy. Washington might have not realized what the internet really meant to the economy when they were looking at the Napster (because it appeared that some people started spending less money), but this move, the mandatory implementation of copy right function, looks like that it is going to hurt the over all economy (badly). Some already mentioned a potential effect; who's going to rush to get copy right protection built-in locked up can't do anything system? Washington might be not technically savvy, but even for non-technical people, this move does not look good; it just doesn't look like that this move will bring back glory days of the late 90s. This is my observation, but we'll see.

  36. Computer industry vs. Media Empire - film at 11:00 by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Apple has sworn to democratize the tools of music and movie making like they once did desktop publishing. The intended audience isn't just privileged members of a movie making or music recording cartel. The intended audience is anybody who wants to make a movie or record a song.

    Which puts Apple (and the rest of the computer industry) in direct opposition to the media conglomerates. The computer industry has some new "killer apps" to sell - along with new boxes to run them. And it's the audio and video publishing empires on the receiving end of the killing. Or else the empires can hang on by getting the new tech crippled or banned by government intervention. But then the apps - and the computer industry - get killed.

    And government is in the position of picking sides. The media empires got it to pick THEIR side in the first couple battles, and the computer industry has finally woken up and JUST STARTED to strike back.

    But what I'm waiting for is the Republican Party to wake up and see which side the bread is buttered on. Hi tek tends both to avoid politics and contribute at least some to both major parties. The media are almost totally and rabidly on the Democrats' side - both with money and with more-expensive-than-money free propaganda that isn't touched by "campaign finance reform" laws.

    So when the government choses sides, in a battle where the winner becomes richer and the loser broke, which side would a self-interested Republican-party-controlled government pick?

    Of course the Republicans have repeatedly shown themselves to be clueless about such things. So let's see if they rent a couple on this issue.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  37. Re:Why Palladium by Alsee · · Score: 4, Interesting

    To me Palladium is three things; secure computing, authorized computing, and available computing.

    You are either astroturfing or you don't understand Palladium. A lot of people are missinformed about what Palladium is and does. Microsoft and the TCPA alliance have done an increadible job of spreading false and missleading information. They have decieved many intelligent people. Unfortunately you practicly have to be a programmer to fully understand what it is and does. And I am a programmer.

    There is absolutely NOTHING you can do with Palladium that you can't do without it except take away control of someone's own machine.

    Palladium is a crypographic system and digital signature system. You can do all of that in any "normal" program. The ONLY thing special about Palladium is that it does not allow the owner to see his ownAGAINST it's owner. Anything that increases the security FOR the owner can be done without Palladium. Period.

    Palladium "trust" means one thing and one thing only - that "they" do not trust the legitimate and authorized owner/user of the machine. Anything that improves the OWNER'S trust in the machine can be done without Palladium. Period.

    -

    --
    - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  38. Baloney by Hobbex · · Score: 5, Interesting

    So sure, Microsoft is pushing Palladium. It can be everything to everyone. Don't forget that you can use DRM goes both ways. If you create something for free distribution with DRM, you can ensure that no one can use it for commercial purposes. DRM is a weapon of choice - you can oppress, or you can set free.

    This is the worst kind of apologist propaganda imaginable. TCPA and Palladium serve one purpose and one purpose only: taking away the root control of our own machines from us. It is that simple, and it is indeed true that once our freedom of informational self determination has been taking from us, there are many applications, good and evil, for those to whoom we grant it: that is the nature of having power over people. You are absolutely right that this power can be used in fair ways, just like any power over us, but once we have given up control of our computers this is no longer for us to decide. If we accept hardware DRM, we are giving up all our freedoms on the promise that if we are nice they'll give most back. Such power is evil in and of itself, regardless of whether it is used for evil or not.

    Defending user hostile computers on the grounds that they can be used for fair applications is like defending totalitarian regimes because they can stop crime and corruption. Both statements are true - a totalitarian regime can indeed protect us in a way an open society cannot, and many intellectually honest thinkers have argued that it is necessary and preferable (Plato, Hobbes, Marx etc.) But history has shown us again and again that open societies prosper, where as those that wish to concentrate power, no matter how convincing the utilitarian argument, lead us down a path of insanity and darkness.

    Once more unto the breach, dear friends - for this is not a new battle, what we are seeing with those who would promise us gold riches for the small price of our freedom in cyberspace are the same devils, if with different faces, that have offered this deal since time immemorial. Choose your side, and remember that history will be our judge.

  39. Re:Why Palladium by Kjella · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Don't forget that you can use DRM goes both ways. If you create something for free distribution with DRM, you can ensure that no one can use it for commercial purposes.

    Uh say again? If you create something that is modifyable (like say under a GPL licence), what the hell is stopping anyone in using it for whatever they want? Compiling it, sell it and never release the source? If you want to prevent that, you'd need a trusted OS + trusted developments tools to even see the source, to enforce the licence of the resulting program. One approved tool(tm) to rule them all. That would be the exact opposite of today, and would be a complete failure.

    Kjella

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  40. Re:Why Palladium by Hobbex · · Score: 4, Interesting

    To be fair, the astroturfer's (I'll give him the benefit of the doubt) argument regarding corporate computers should be addressed. His assertion that many company's would like the concept of having their employees on user hostile machines where they can control the employees ability to communicate the information he has access to is very correct - in fact, many (most?) corporations already deprive most employees of root accounts on their workstations, so short of a software application running as root decrypting documents only when it pleases, they have already achieved this.

    So what does TCPA/palladium provide beyond this? The only thing really is that it designed to make it harder for a person with physical access to machine to break root - on a normal PC is it typically no harder than breaking the case lock and setting a jumper to reset the BIOS - with TCPA, barring software attacks it will take serious hardware reverse engineering (though I doubt software attacks should be barred - nobody has made an OS with privilege escaltion exploits yet - do we really believe MS will this time?) The former is certainly enough for in-office PCs - but I guess corporations would like to retain control of laptops and machines that leave their property.

    For this purpose one could imagine a class of corporate user hostile laptops - built so that employees could take home machines that are still loyal to the employer rather than the user - but trying to justify the entire TCPA/Palladium technology on that is naked lie. Firstly, a niche market for such technology hardly makes it a necessity in every computer sold, yet that is pretty clearly where we are headed, and secondly, in this case it would be the employing corporation that should control the keys that give ultimate control of the computers - but under TCPA it is the vendor.

    The purpose is clear - TCPA is aimed not at corporate computers that need to be controlled by there owners, but at privately owned computers that "need" not to be controlled by their owners. Thus the vendor controls the keys, and magically the users are turned into consumers, subjects of the technology companies who are ready to trade their power over them to the media industry.

  41. Re:Why Palladium by hyphz · · Score: 2, Insightful

    > Don't forget that you can use DRM goes both
    > ways. If you create something for free
    > distribution with DRM, you can ensure that no
    > one can use it for commercial purposes.

    Not at all. If there was ANY copy protection system that could detect the intent with which a copy was made, we'd have no problems - the system could detect whether a copy was going to be used for illegal piracy or for the music owner to be listened to in the car.

    This also ignores the fact that most of the time, in order to get the tools to apply DRM to stuff you produce, you have to pay - and normally you have to pay an amount of money so great that a non-commercial business wouldn't be able to do so (which of course is exactly what the DRM vendors intend, so that pirates can't obtain the application kit and reverse engineer it)

  42. Jeez by Adam_Weishaupt · · Score: 2, Interesting

    All I have to say is, About F*cking Time. Other than Apple and Gateway, the Tech industry has been way too quiet on this subject. This gave the impression a $300B/Year industry was letting a $30B/year industry push it around simply because they didn't want to soil thier hands with politics.

    --
    "You don't need a weatherman/ To know which way the wind blows" -Bob Dylan: Subterranean Homesick Blues
  43. Behind the scenes by vinsci · · Score: 4, Interesting
    This "alliance" is a plot run by the PR firm Dittus Communications. The contacts given for the alliance are all Dittus employees. The domain name "alliancefordigitalprogress.org" is registered to Dittus Communications.

    Among their clients, Dittus Commuications counts BSA (Business Software Alliance), Intel and Microsoft.

    These simple facts are revealed by Dittus' press release, about yesterday's event and the actual press release from the event.

    So, how does Dittus work? Go to dittus.com to find out. Clicking on "services", then "coalitions & grassroots" gives you this:

    Dittus tailors each coalition and grassroots program to help our clients run a successful campaign. We will recruit and mobilize the right people to help you influence key decision makers and retain their support. Through experience, effective monitoring, innovation and the ability to deliver the right message at the appropriate decision points, Dittus will help you win.

    Coalition Building
    Support voiced from the right allies can vastly amplify your message and add credibility to your argument. Marshalling diverse players can be a delicate art, and Dittus Communications has a flair for it. On a range of hotly debated issues, we have successfully managed varied alliances across the political spectrum.

    Grassroots Organizing
    The quickest way to policymakers' hearts is through their backyards. Time and again, Dittus Communications has demonstrated an uncanny gift for grassroots campaign management. We're known for finding innovative ways to mobilize widespread support and sway important votes.

    Now, click on "clients" on the main menu to the left, then "case studies". Read through a couple of the studies, for example "Americans for Computer Privacy" (text mirrored below). Interestingly, you'll find that Dittus was behind the strategy and campaign that in the end lifted U.S. export limitations on strong encryption. Now of course, the current DRM campaign they are running on behalf of their clients, is pretty much the opposite of the goals of "Americans for Computer Privacy". This campaign is no more than a call for unregulated, oligopoly-controlled implementation of TCPA / Palladium, but of course they never mention TCPA/Palladium. I am not surprised to find all of the TCPA founding members in this so called "Alliance for Digital Progress".

    This is a fight were it is in the public interest that both parties fail.

    Here's Dittus' own case study on how they helped relax U.S. encryption regulations:

    "In one six-month period, Dittus Communications generated more than 130 million media impressions."

    CHALLENGE
    Encryption systems, which scramble electronic communications and information, allow users to communicate on the internet with confidence in the knowledge that their security and privacy are protected. In 1998, however, American manufacturers were facing heavy export restrictions by the U.S. government on U.S.-made encryption products, thus restricting American manufacturers from meeting global demand. Momentum was also building in Washington for policies that would allow the FBI to unlock encrypted information.

    STRATEGY
    An existing client asked Dittus Communications to draft a strategic plan that would rally the support of other industries and manufacturers similarly affected by U.S. encryption policies. The Dittus plan called for the creation of a "strange bedfellows" coalition that would energize organizations outside of the technology community to support encryption policy and oppose the FBI's mandatory key recovery proposal. Dittus also recognized that the issues surrounding the encryption debate would have to be reframed in order to broaden support among the memeber organizations and in Congress. After conducting significant focus group research, Dittus reframed the debate to focus on privacy and security. And thus Americans for Computer Privacy was born.

    Dittus then actively recruited groups such as the Louisiana Sheriff's Association, Americans for Tax Reform, and the Eagle Forum to join the coalition. Dittus helped build and manage the coalition that grew to 40 trade associations and more than 100 companies representing financial services, manufacturing, high- tech, and trasportation industries as well as law enforcement, civil-liberty, taxpayer, and privacy groups.

    Understanding that Members of Congress needed to hear from their constituents regarding this issue, Dittus mounted an extensive public affairs campaign nationally and in targeted congressional districts that delivered favorable editorials; placed ads, op- eds and letters to the editor; and generated grassroots, third- party, and coalition support. Our objective was to convince lawmakers to reform current policy and to stop the passage of anti-privacy legislation.

    We organized Hill drops, visiting every congressional office with ACP information packets; established relationships with key staff and press secretaries; organized demonstrations and briefings; and developed press/lobby kits and papers. Building widespread, vocal grassroots support among targeted congressional constituencies was critical. We targeted the campaign to the markets of lawmakers who were either undecided about the issue or against it.

    RESULTS
    In one six-month period, Dittus Communications genereated more than 130 million media impressions on the coalition's position. We earned favorable coverage in the Boston Globe, Chicago Tribune, Houston Chronicle, Los Angeles Times, New York Times, San Fransisco Chronicle, USA Today, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, Business Daily, Newsweek, Roll Call, PC Magazine, Internet Week, Time, U.S. News & World Report, and Wired. We also booked ACP spokespeople on Bloomberg TV, MSNBC, the Fox News Channel, and all three major TV networks, as well as radio talk shows nationwide.

    Our campaign created a groundswell of public and congressional support for the SAFE Act and killed the third- party key recovery plan. It also brought the Administration, which had shown little movement in support of ACP's position on the issue, to the negotiating table. The Administration also eased its encryption export policy, allowing American companies to export strong encryption overseas.

    Ah, the joys of money.
    --

    Trusted Computing FAQ | Free Dawit Isaak!
  44. Advantages to trusted computing... by alexhmit01 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Sometimes we are passing around emails that contain trade secrets to employees and/or partners. Every once in a while, someone fowards one out (usually to someone trustworthy), and we have to go talk to them to protect it. If I could send an email marked "may not foward," that could be enforced, that problem would go away.

    Trusted computing as an idea predated the digital media issues. The government uses it. In "primitive" Unix permission, a file has an owner and group with permissions, plus default permissions. ACLs allow you to go a step further and assign different rights to different groups, something that the Unix style doesn't allow. Government certified systems are different.

    With a basic trusted system, you start with layers (normal, secret, top secret, for example), and based upon your clearance, you can or cannot access it. But it goes beyond files. If I am reading a secret file, I shouldn't be able to write to a normal file, otherwise I could copy and paste the information out.

    The system can enforce these sorts of requirements, but only in a trusted environment. The problem with Microsoft's solution isn't the introduction of trusted environments, its the business policy of forbidding non-trusted environments.

    For example, my non-forwarding email. If I sent it trusted do not forward, non trusted environments shouldn't be able to access it at all. If you move all data to trusted, then non-trusted individuals can't access the data.

    This may or may not be a bad idea. If I want a home user to be able to VPN in and check email, I have a problem. If they don't have (and don't want) a trusted client at home, i need to provide them with one. That means that they have two machines, trusted and non-trusted. And none of the trusted data should be able to enter the non-trusted machine.

    The problem is that corporate users in certain environments would like trusted machines. The government would like trusted machines (for employees, not all citizens). The media empires saw trusted machines as a solution to their problem. They saw that their watermarking and other absurdity was doomed to fail, although they spent years looking for an impossible solution. Trusting computing research has a solution, but it was never intended for the consumer market (who had no demand).

    The content companies concluded that if they moved their content into a trusted environment and only let people play in a trusted environment, they might be able to save their business models. Trusted computing was NOT developed to prevent MP3 swapping.

    Alex

    1. Re:Advantages to trusted computing... by Alsee · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If I could send an email marked "may not foward," that could be enforced

      Simple. The owner of the computers can simple use software that does that. The email will be encrypted and any unauthorized people will not be able to access it. There is no need for TCPA/Palladium.

      Trusted computing as an idea predated the digital media issues. The government uses it.

      Right. And they did it without TCPA/Palladium. Theere is absolutely no need for TCPA/Palladium for the "conventional" definition of trusted computing. The owner of the computer can simply use the right software.

      With a basic trusted system, you start with layers (normal, secret, top secret, for example), and based upon your clearance, you can or cannot access it. But it goes beyond files. If I am reading a secret file, I shouldn't be able to write to a normal file, otherwise I could copy and paste the information out.

      Right. And you don't need TCPA/Palladium to do that.

      The problem with Microsoft's solution isn't...

      No, the problem with Microsoft's "solution" is that they are requiring special hardware and they are inventing a new and deceptive definition of "Trusted Computing". Trusted Computing (capitals) has nothing to do with trusted computing (lowercase).

      non-trusted individuals can't access the data.

      Yeah. that's called ordinary encryption.
      Palladium/TCPA is all about GRANTING access to non-trusted individuals.

      If I want a home user to be able to VPN in and check email, I have a problem. If they don't have (and don't want) a trusted client at home, i need to provide them with one.

      The Palladium "solution" says you have to buy them a new computer.

      The ordinary solution is to just give some software to run on their computer. Problem solved.

      Of course NEITHER of these solutions work if you consider them to be the enemy. If he's the enemy then he could just copy the email over to the other machine by hand anyway.

      The problem is that corporate users in certain environments would like trusted machines. The government would like trusted machines

      Then they just need the right software. If they don't have the right software then TCPA/Palladium wont help.

      Trusted computing was NOT developed to prevent MP3 swapping.

      You are only right as far as the normal definition of trusted computing(lowecase). But the new definition of Trusted Computing(capitals) was designed for exactly that purpose.

      The new definition of Trusted Computing(capitals) is that the the owner of the machine is not trusted. The machine treats it's owner as the enemy. There is no justifacation for my property to treat me as the enemy. If it is my employer's machine, fine, it can treat me as the enemy. It should never treat my employer (it's owner) as the enemy.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  45. Upside of "crypto on board" chips? by MamasGun · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I have been doing some thinking about the fact that "LaGrande"-type crypto co-processor circuitry will be available soon on CPUs from AMD, Intel, Transmeta and VIA. There might actually be an upside to this circuitry in a "free" (in this use of the word, unencumbered by DRM) OS.

    How about using the crypto co-processor to offload encryption overhead? You take a performance hit when you use strong encryption like that in SSH, IPSec and so forth. If the math-intensive encryption/decryption could be off-loaded to a crypto co-processor, you could have nearly effortless crypto protection of communications. Imagine VPN tunneling without feeling like you've downshifted into second gear. Imagine SSH that is as fast as cleartext Telnet. Encrypted VNC that doesn't feel like you're back on an analog modem again.

    I don't like DRM. I like having r00t on my machines. That's why, when I run Windows 2K, (and that's getting rarer and rarer between Linux and MacOS)I don't apply Service Pack 3. That's why I am totally against Palladium and other TCPA crap.

    But if TCPA is supposed to have an "off" switch so that you can run non-DRM OSes like Linux (and since Intel and IBM are both pro-Linux most of the time, and much of TCPA was formulated by IBM and Intel, it's a likely feature) then perhaps we can harness the crypto co-processor for good applications like accelerating encrypted tunneling. When a software company like Microsoft gets a hold of this technology, of course, watch out for your cornhole. But maybe there is an upside buried in the midst of all of this.

    --
    "But you've already got a DVD. It lasts forever....In the digital world, we don't need back-ups..."
    -- Jack Valenti
  46. You don't need Palladium for that by smiff · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Sometimes we are passing around emails that contain trade secrets to employees and/or partners. Every once in a while, someone fowards one out (usually to someone trustworthy), and we have to go talk to them to protect it. If I could send an email marked "may not foward," that could be enforced, that problem would go away.

    You don't need Palladium to implement this. You can use an email client with this feature, and assume that your colleagues won't intentionally go to the trouble of breaking it.

    If someone really wants to distribute that email without your permission, they can just type it into a non-trusted email client and send it off.