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Imagining Numbers

peterwayner writes "One mathematician I know told me that the most important lesson he learned was how to read a math book. It did no good, he said, to just start plowing through the theorems because that brought confusion. The key was to skim the book five or six times to get an idea of what the writer was trying to do. Then, and only then, was it possible to figure out the equations. This is what Barry Mazur tries to do in his book Imagining Numbers . There are some equations, graphs and diagrams, but first and foremost he offers plenty of poetry, philosophy and history to lay a foundation for understanding imaginary numbers." Peter's review continues below -- despite its complicated, abstract subject matter, he says that it's "simple enough to be accessible to most who will be interested in it." Imagining Numbers author Barry Mazur pages 267 publisher Farrar, Straus and Giroux rating 8 reviewer Peter Wayner ISBN 0374174695 summary How to imagine imaginary numbers like the square root of minus fifteen.

Much of modern mathematical literature is structured with crisp, scripted precision. First there is theorem one, then theorem two, which leads to theorem three, which could only be followed by theorem four, and so on until we reach theorem n. If you want to learn the mathematics of complex numbers (a +bi), then classic texts (this or this) will get you there.

Some may like this logical progression, but it leaves others cold in the same way that crisp, modern architecture by Mies van de Rohe leaves some craving a more layered, fractured, ornate, organic and just plain fun place to live and work. Less isn't more, as Robert Venturi said, less is a bore.

If you happen to feel a chill when churning through an assembly line of theorems, you might enjoy the treatment of Mazur, a professor at Harvard who seems to spend as much time reading poets like Rilke or Stevens as he does examining old mathematical texts. Mazur is not the kind of machine that turns coffee into theorems-- he's too busy stopping to smell the rhetorical flourishes.

The book isn't aimed at mathematicians per se. The publisher, Farrar, Strauss and Giroux specializes in mainstream literature and that's probably the best pigeonhole for this book. Mazur wants the reader to understand how to think about imaginary numbers, not evaluate some integrals -- and that reader could really be anyone with the desire to think about mathematical things. The book is simple enough to be accessible to most who will be interested in it.

In many ways, Mazur attempted a much harder task than just teaching complex analysis. It's one thing to learn how to find the roots of polynomials, but it's another thing to try to help people get a feeling or an intuition for the square root of minus fifteen. Integers are easy to understand and even feel by counting out things, but imaginary numbers don't seem to exist. Mathematicians have spent many years trying to find the best metaphors and structures to understand how to find answers for all polynomials and it's never been an easy struggle.

The best part of the book is, without doubt, the historical treatment of how other mathematicians confronted the question of irrational and complex numbers. These ideas have always been hard to grasp and it took time to evolve the most compact and consistent nomenclature.

If you're interested in mathematics as more than just a mechanism that churns out answers, you'll probably enjoy the book. It's a light, friendly, philosophical expedition looking for a way to make imaginary numbers work in our minds.

Peter Wayner is the author of Translucent Databases , a book on how to imagine databases that hold no information yet still do useful work. You can purchase Imagining Numbers from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.

167 of 265 comments (clear)

  1. did this author start nothing.net? by trmj · · Score: 4, Funny

    it seems as though he is making quite a bit of money off nothing.

    a book on how to imagine databases that hold no information

    How to imagine imaginary numbers

    I wish I had nothing that could make me a lot of money as well.

    --
    Work sucked, until it became unemployment, when it became slightly more tolerable. -Tet
    1. Re:did this author start nothing.net? by blancolioni · · Score: 2, Funny

      I wish I had nothing that could make me a lot of money as well.

      Dot com, we miss you already.

    2. Re:did this author start nothing.net? by mrtroy · · Score: 1

      Imaginary numbers are hardly "nothing"

      For every solution in two space or three space there are a number of complex solutions, and equations which have no solution in two or three space could have a complex solution. While its not as practical as two or three space math which we commonly use (like what is the area of this paper, what is the volume of this cup), complex numbers still have an important role in mathematics and engineering. It is hardly "nothing".

      --
      [I can picture a world without war, without hate. I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it]
    3. Re:did this author start nothing.net? by garcia · · Score: 1

      no he watched a lot of Seinfeld though... the show about nothing!

    4. Re:did this author start nothing.net? by WatertonMan · · Score: 1
      Part of the confusion is the misleading misnomer of "imaginary numbers." One of those bad choices in the history of science. Had they instead made a more obvious connection with vectors the issue wouldn't have been so confusing.

      I ran into this all the time trying to tutor lower division physics students. When they got to A/C circuits and the little bit of complex mathematics they required the students became rather hopelessly confused. Once you get the whole abstraction of "imaginary number" and the problem of mind and what common language means by imaginary the problem goes away. Well. . .not entirely I guess. But teaching them as a kind of vector that holds phase information for waves really does help, as do many, many practical examples. (My favorite example was a roll of toilet paper they'd pull on with an ink line on the side of the roll to represent phase)

      My humble opinion on this (and the somewhat related thread on Junior High Science texts) is that keeping mathematics and physics so separated is a bit of a mistake. I think that teaching them in tandem is not wise. Physics is still very abstract, but is a great way to get a handle on mathematics. Typically you learn them about the same time. (i.e. you learn calculus to do simple physics - even when it is applied in other fields it is typically related to physics or physics problems) Trying to teach physics without enough "quantification" is difficult. Trying to teach mathematics without enough "practical examples" is a mistake.

  2. One time, I thought of this number by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    I called it seight, it would be between seven and eight. Yes, that was me.

  3. This is great.... by xtermz · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ...if you're a person who even understands higher math. But what about morons like me who still have to break out the calculator to do simple calculations. The ironic thing is I can code but probably will never get past a certain plateu thanks to my shortfalls. I never got past algebra 1 in HS...

    Anybody have any good sources of help for the math-disabled

    --


    I lost my concept of community when my community lost all concept of me.
    1. Re:This is great.... by aborchers · · Score: 4, Informative

      Try The Number Devil by Hans Magnus Enzensberger. It is a very accessible introduction to mathematical thinking for those who are not necessarily already inclined to it. The book consists of a series of dreams of a young boy who hates math and is visited by "the number devil". Originally seen as a torturer, the number devil ultimately reveals the beauty and - most importantly - comprehensibility of mathematics

      --
      Trouble making decisions? Just flip for it.
    2. Re:This is great.... by WPIDalamar · · Score: 4, Informative

      Software engineering rarely has anything to do with complex math. (Computer Science occasionally does). If you can do simple algebra, you can probably write 90% of all end user applications out there. There's no calculus in a web browser, there's no trignometry in an email client.

      The only place I can think of that does involve some hard math, is in 3d engines for games, or highly technical/scientific applications that deal with math. (CAD programs, MAPLE, MathCad, etc.)

    3. Re:This is great.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Undoubtedly the best book to get started in thinking mathematically is Innumeracy, by John Allen Paulos.

      All you need is a rudimentary understanding of numbers (what it means to be bigger and smaller, and how the basic operations work) to follow along. Paulos is so lucid schools would do well to require this book for reading in math courses.

    4. Re:This is great.... by mrtroy · · Score: 1

      Much of math, especially easy math like in high school, is hard to learn if you do not have the right mindset for it. It is a type of common sense that some people just have less of than others.

      Not a diss at all, but it is just far harder for some to learn math than others, bceause of how they think.

      A good source of help for the "math-disabled" is some textbooks with answers and patience. Or start taking some math courses, several times if necessary until you can grasp the whole concepts, not just memorize the formulas. Once you can figure out things like WHY derivatives give us certain values, instead of just memorizing HOW to obtain the value, you are off to the races.

      --
      [I can picture a world without war, without hate. I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it]
    5. Re:This is great.... by GigsVT · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but the question is, when will all the idiotic universities figure that out?

      --
      I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
    6. Re:This is great.... by jkujawa · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The ability to do arithmatic quickly and accurately in one's head is fairly orthogonal to the ability to comprehend higher math.

      Hell, my current math professor has to write out simple arithmatic that I can do easily in my head, but he's one of the most gifted math teachers I've ever had.

    7. Re:This is great.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
      Don't forget marketing and market research applications, there's also complex calculation for programmers working in the finance fields. Ask anyone who programs in banking, insurance and investment companies.

      Don't forget, most programmers work for companies doing custom projects. Very few people write browsers, or email clients.

    8. Re:This is great.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Bad news... *you* are the idiot.

      For real.

      You seem to have confused the SCIENCE (note that word... "science"...) of computer science with the TRADE SKILL of programming.

      If you went to university just to learn how to code a front-end for accounts payable... then you are as seriously misguided as a plumber who enrolls in course on continuum mechanics to learn his trade.

      Most plumbers I know are smart enough to understand the difference... on the other hand, a shocking number of CS students I see... aren't.

      Bottom line: Please drop out of university immediately... you don't even understand what you are taking. You'd be much happier at the DeVry school of Football, Truckin' and Codin'.

    9. Re:This is great.... by shreak · · Score: 1

      Software Engineering may not have anything to do with complex math, but it has everything to do with being able to read and write complex technical specifications.

      A software design and analysis is a lot like a mathematical proof. You have a hypothesis (this design will solve the problem) and you document the steps necessary to get to the solution.

      If somewhere along the way you can't draw a clean line from one portion of the design to another, you've identified a flaw in the hypothesis. You throw the design away or modify to fit.

      This is also true if you are cookie cutting an existing design. You still have to prove that the existing problem fits into the category of problem that the proposed design has solved before. Kind of like identifying if a problem is NP complete.

      If you can show that the problem fits the category then you can assume a number of other properties for the problem fit also.

      =Shreak

    10. Re:This is great.... by crschmidt · · Score: 1

      To be honest, most of the people who do understand higher math also have to pull out the calculators.

      My Calculus teacher always told us he was going to have to start an "arithmetic for calc students" class. We'd get the calc right, and then we'd screw up in adding 3+2.

      Then again, maybe we're all just idiots.

      --
      -- Christopher Schmidt YouTube Quality of Experience
    11. Re:This is great.... by obnoximoron · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > Software engineering rarely has anything to do with complex math. (Computer Science occasionally does). If you can do simple algebra, you can probably write 90% of all end user applications out there.
      >
      Not surprising at all when you consider that most software is just an automation of the thinking that we humans do for common daily activities. Such thinking involves processing of higher-level symbols by our brain. These symbols are high-level abstractions into "common-sense" symbols of the sensory inputs fed to our brain continuously.
      Contrast this with the lower-level "non-symbolic" processing such as that involved in low-level vision or hearing in the brain. Its not surprising that our brain cannot easily understand its own lower-level brain activities using its higher-level common-sense kind of thinking. Instead, quantitative thinking or "hard math" is needed to understand how vision or hearing works. Hence software to automate hearing or vision (or the inverse-vision problem which is graphics) is naturally mathematical or at least a mix of mathematics and common-sense symbolic processing.

      > The only place I can think of that does involve some hard math, is in 3d engines for games,

      Heh, actually 3D graphics is hardly hard math. Most of it is high-school calculus (linear algebra, polynomials, etc) which is simple once you spend enough time studying it. And most of 3D math is fairly easy to visualize. The truly hard math areas are those are truly abstract in the sense that they are hard to visualize. There is no easy visual analogy for the concepts involved. For example, try visualizing the formal definition of an abstract topological space or worse, an abstract manifold, hehe.

    12. Re:This is great.... by BobRooney · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'd recommend taking some discreet math or logic courses and a junior college. It will ease you into more complex math and most likely allow you to avoid calculus, which tends to turn off people who aren't "into math".

    13. Re:This is great.... by leoboiko · · Score: 1

      You can also try the computer devil. He initially looks like a torturer, but after a while you'll understand that he's just teaching you how to understand the computer and intelligently automate repetitive tasks.

      --
      Prescriptive grammar:linguistics :: alchemy:chemistry. Stop being a nazi and learn some science.
    14. Re:This is great.... by YoJ · · Score: 1
      Tell that to the software engineers. They seem to use lots of complex math very effectively. For example, suppose you are designing a web crawler for a search engine. How should you gather pages? The answer requires lots of thinking about graphs, recursive equations, and other complex mathematical things.

      In general, math doesn't help you write any actual code. But it is vital in designing applications, and design is really the interesting part of software engineering.

    15. Re:This is great.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Right on man. Make way for the real scientists. I've been spending years studying computer science engineering... all I have to say its pretty much ALL MATHEMATICS and logic problem solving. 4 semesters of calculus just to start off. Not to mention differential equations, statistics, and linear algebra. Studying running times, oscillating circuits, the list goes on. How can you possibly write decent code with out passing algebra 1. 5+2a=9 hmm a=?.... duhhhhhhhhhhhh.

    16. Re:This is great.... by jgerman · · Score: 1

      Hardly. Graphs, automata, sets. All (three among many I should add), that belong to both math and CompSci, and all play a heavy role in programming. If you don't want to understand those things, fine. You can get a job as a code monkey, probably not a secure one, but you can get a job. Just don't expect to be taken seriously, due to extreme lack of knowledge. One of the first (easy) questions I ask an applicant is to draw a state machine for a simple regex. If you can't do that, you have no business designing systems of any kind. Try another field.

      --
      I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
    17. Re:This is great.... by Slime-dogg · · Score: 1

      Not so.

      Imagine having an e-mail application that handles 15,000 peices of e-mail a day. This sort of application would require algorithms to be used or created that are very low order. Anything that has to do with data processing had better be coded by an individual who has a higher education than just algebra. This individual should be able to reduce an algorithm to it's bottlenecking factor, optimize it, and recode it.

      That is something you learn in Computer Science. It is not something that uses simple algebra, but something much more complex.

      --
      You need to restart your computer. Hold down the Power button for several seconds or press the Restart button.
    18. Re:This is great.... by GigsVT · · Score: 1

      Then you better tell that to all the employers that still put a practical value on a university degree.

      --
      I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
    19. Re:This is great.... by Billly+Gates · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Unfortunately for real world programing jobs a cs degree is required. Even for simple customer service jobs. This is the problem.

    20. Re:This is great.... by t · · Score: 1
      Please do not misuse the word "engineering". You would not call a carpenter an architect, nor would you call a mechanic a mechanical engineer, and certainly you wouldn't call an electrician an electrical engineer. If you read "Learn surgery in 21 days", would you call yourself a doctor?

      To be called an "engineer" you must graduate from a school authorized to bestow the particular engineering degree.

      Also, a computer science degree does not make one an engineer. This statement is not meant to belittle the degree, it is merely a fact.

    21. Re:This is great.... by rnelsonee · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I think if you limit the scope of this discussion to imaginary numbers, the original poster had a point -- you rarely need it in today's programs. I got my degree in EE, so I have to use imaginary numbers (like on the program I have open now... ready to Alt-Tab to if the boss walks by), but most algorithms don't need it.

      Should you be comfortable with math? Absolutely! You should know Calc, and should be very much aware of exponents and iteration (another poster's comments about O(n) and O(n^2) are dead on). Linear algebra work well too. But mostly because it helps you write algorithms that require thought, not because you have to know how to perform a Fast Fourier Transform. And if you're getting a degree in CS, that's the type of work you'll do. Getting that degree helps ensure you don't get tapped to write scripts all day long, no?

    22. Re:This is great.... by stephanruby · · Score: 1
      Please do not misuse the word "engineering". [...] To be called an "engineer" you must graduate from a school authorized to bestow the particular engineering degree.

      Authorized by whom? Do you realize that a school does not even need to be accredited to bestow an engineering degree? I've met so many engineers who didn't even know basic math, it's frightening.

    23. Re:This is great.... by PenguiN42 · · Score: 1

      Well, the thing is, most universities simultaneously teach you Computer science *and* software engineering. The latter definately has practical value. The former... well let's just say that I forgot everything I learned in Models of Computation about 3 days after the final exam.

      I personally believe that they should be completely different majors. Are there any colleges out there that make this split?

      --
      The following sentence is true. The preceding sentence was false.
    24. Re:This is great.... by Angus+Prune · · Score: 1

      I've had a philosphy teacher who couldn't do any maths beyond adding up the marks but could see and appreciate the beauty of maths.

      I've known gifted physicists who cant stand maths beyond using it to calculate things

      I've known a person who can look at a long polynomial and simplify it completely in one glance.

      I can work out a series of basic, (but not easy) calulations in my head faster than someone who has to take the calculkator out of their pencil case and set it to degrees rather than radians. I love the beauty of maths but can't remember formulaes or see the straight foward way to simplify things.

      The fact is every brain works differently.

      The only people that I get annoyed about are people are proud that they "never could no numbers". Innumeracy is as bad as illiteracy. Not everyone can do maths, but they shouldn't be proud of the fact (they shouldnt be ashamed either)

    25. Re:This is great.... by norite · · Score: 2, Informative
      There's a book by David Berlinsky, called "A Tour of the Calculus, The Philosophy of Mathematics" It's the best damn book on calculus I ever read! (Get it! ISBN # 0 434 09844 2) here's the kicker - it's not a text book; it's a novel - he teaches you calculus, but it's also a history lesson, a story of the people who developed the calculus. He takes you back to europe in the 1700's...

      Also, he actually explains terms like functions - and what a function is - in plain english. I went through high school not actually knowing what a function was, because nobody bothered explaining what it was! I could vaguely see what it did, but not understanding what it was - big difference. I wish mathematics was taught in this style more, using creative language, and plain english. maybe the purists will see this as unecessary fluff, but if you can't get through to your audience, and get them to understand and enjoy the subject then you're totally wasting your time - pack up and go home. Math is actually a surprisingly simple subject; moreover, it's FUN, too! It's a real pity it isn't taught in plain simple terms :(

      --
      -- Fuck Beta
    26. Re:This is great.... by drmofe · · Score: 1
      And you think you're qualified to be software engineer without having an understanding of the halting problem?? /boggle. People like you make rockets blow up (Ariane V).

      Ariane 5 failure was largely the result of a software reuse problem and hence in the domain of Software Engineering.

      However, you could argue pedantically that putting a large number into fewer bits was a representation problem and hence in the realm of Computer Science...

      STF

    27. Re:This is great.... by AngusSF · · Score: 1

      The reason college degrees are required for real-world jobs is that someone who has a coll.degree has demonstrated a willingness to put up with a certain amount of useless bullsh!t to achieve a goal. This (the ability to put up with sh!t to accomplish an end) has demonstrated value to the corporate world.

      --
      "A gun is a tool, Marian. No better, no worse than any other tool. An axe, a shovel, or anything." Shane (1953)
    28. Re:This is great.... by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      I agree on college degrees but cs ones. I do not agree that computer science is the only way to learn how to do a while loop. HR is seriously out to lunch. Someone with a degree from devry knows how to code. However it may not be prestigious unless the candidate has real world experience.

      A degree in busines with a specialty in MIS is also appropriate and to me is a more valuable degree. Most programs are internal projects in the office. Directors and Vp's who talk to the programmers use language like "ERP","mrp", "Business process re-engineering", "integration" and expect the programmers to be on the same page. Also CIO's use terms like three tier development models. Does a cs major even know what the hell these things are? No. Many cs graduates who go to a MS friendly university do not even know how to log into unix terminal. But they know how to theorize sort routine theorems in calculus.

      I was browsing around livejournal and looking at blogs and I found alot of cs students. Reading their blogs I found alot of senior year students complaining about c/c++ because they do not know the language. Hell I heard stories at the University of Toronto about students in senior year classes asking the TA how many for loops can I use in a program! This one girl knew sparc assembly but all her homework that was non assembly was done in VB unless her instructor told her otherwise.

      In this economy HR only sees cs students for any IT related work. A kernel hacker for example would easily be turned down for the girl I mentioned above who is a vb jockey.

      Why? Because she has a cs degree and the other person is only a liberal arts major. Also in the eyes of HR kernel development doesn't count as "real" programming because it was not done in a corporate environment.

      Its stupid and is just hurting our reputation while Indian students who have devry equalivants can code loops around them and work for 6k a year.

      If I was a boss who needed a jr level programmer assuming I could not hire Indians, I would pick grads with a MIS business degree or some other major where the student contributes to opensource. They know more and may even be better programmers then cs majors. They also put up with shit in college.

      This is why IT loves cheap foreign sweatshop style labor from India. There colleges in India are like devry here. They teach them just programming and not theory.

    29. Re:This is great.... by alienmole · · Score: 1
      However, you could argue pedantically that putting a large number into fewer bits was a representation problem and hence in the realm of Computer Science...

      Yes, if only the programmer had been versed in algorithmic information theory, he would have known not to do that! ;)

    30. Re:This is great.... by stephanruby · · Score: 1

      San Jose State (in California) is not an accredited engineering school, would this mean that their diploma is violating the law? What about "train engineers"? Are they exempt from this law?

  4. Imaginary Numbers by TheBrownShow · · Score: 1, Funny

    Here's an imaginary number for you:

    The number of people who regularly visit Slashdot that have unbiased opinions on Microsoft. ;)

    1. Re:Imaginary Numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      0 is a very real number.

      Here's an imaginary number:

      The ratio of /.'ers who have smaller tits than their girlfriends.

      See, this number is undefined, since they have no girlfriends.

    2. Re:Imaginary Numbers by mrtroy · · Score: 1

      Come on now, get your math humour right.

      The square root of your increase in sex appeal from posting that comment is 0, since the increase is 0 and the square root of that is 0. Now, the square root of my score (assuming it will be negative due to the fact im making fun of your terrible math skills) WILL be a complex/imaginary number

      Remember the assumption. The scapegoat of math.

      --
      [I can picture a world without war, without hate. I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it]
    3. Re:Imaginary Numbers by mrtroy · · Score: 1

      Oh quite the wit! Well I actually would have to change my past comment now, since getting laid by your mother does push you into the negatives.

      If your life wasnt so damn complex I could have got it right the last time.

      And my sex appeal is not for you to be considering, or to even imagine

      --
      [I can picture a world without war, without hate. I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it]
  5. Reminds me of... by wynlyndd · · Score: 4, Funny

    "We're sorry, but the number you have dialed is imaginary. Please rotate your phone ninety degrees and try again. Thank you."

    --
    "Dogs and cats, living together...it's mass hysteria!"
    1. Re:Reminds me of... by zobo · · Score: 1

      That'll never work. You'll just end up dialling a negative number, and I don't know anyone with a negative phone number.

      $ echo 555-1212 | bc
      -657
      $

      --
      83chrise.nuf
  6. Five or Six TIMES?!?!?! by freeze128 · · Score: 1, Funny

    I have trouble reading math books once! Who has enough time to read one five or six times?

  7. Maybe... by SirLantos · · Score: 1

    ...if this book was available during my school daze, I would have paid attention in class. Then maybe I would have gotten better than a C in math.

    I have always been more of an abstract thinker (which is weird being a programmer.) As such, I have never gotten along very well with the subject. Maybe a book like this would have put me on a better track. Then again, probably not.

    Just my opinion,
    SirLantos

    --
    The flying hamster of DOOM rains coconuts on your pitiful city.
    1. Re:Maybe... by Glove+d'OJ · · Score: 2, Informative

      Abstract math (ring theory, group theory, etc.) is not directly related to imaginary numbers. Sure, imaginary numbers may exhibit ring or group properties, but that is more incidental that causal.

      I *am* the geekest link!

    2. Re:Maybe... by jgardn · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I have always been more of an abstract thinker (which is weird being a programmer.) As such, I have never gotten along very well with the subject.


      <sarcasm>
      Yes, somehow there is something concrete and real about programming, but math is just way out there and totally wierd, with no correlation at all with reality.
      </sarcasm>

      Dude, math, programming, physics, and almost any form of engineering are all abstract arts. We deal with invisible quantities that do magical things that have no correlation with reality. Heck, even music can fall into this arena of abstract arts.

      Abstract thinkers make grade A programmers, mathematicians, physicists, chemists, engineers, etc...
      --
      The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
    3. Re:Maybe... by SirLantos · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes, but programming, math, etc. is extremely structrured. A plus B always equals C, it is all strict rules that MUST be followed or your answer is wrong.

      When I say I am an abstract thinker, I mean that I understand things that aren't required to have structure more than things that absolutly must be a certain way.

      Yes, programming requires a bit of imagination. But it is all logic, it must be constructed a certain way or it will fail. Peotry, on the other hand, requires nothing. There is nobody that can say that one persons peotry is absolutly wrong, yes it can be structured, but if the artist decides they don't want it to be structured then that makes the poem more special to the poet.

      Before you throw your sarcasm around, be sure you understand what the person is trying to say. Change your perspective to their own and then, respond with intelligence, not with sarcasm.

      Just my opinion,
      SirLantos

      --
      The flying hamster of DOOM rains coconuts on your pitiful city.
    4. Re:Maybe... by Captain+Nitpick · · Score: 1
      ...physics, and almost any form of engineering are all abstract arts. We deal with invisible quantities that do magical things that have no correlation with reality.

      Physics is fundamentally about describing the real world. Engineering is the most concrete field of study there is (pun intended). If either of these failed to correlate with reality, they would have no purpose.

      --
      But then again, I could be wrong.
    5. Re:Maybe... by shemsvoice · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure that's true. I have yet to take Abstract Algebra (I'm taking it next year), but in physics, the rotation group SO(2) definately has a strong relation to imaginary numbers. Lie Groups depend heavily on Analytic (infinitely differentiable) functions are important for developing the idea of a generator. Functions in the complex plane generally are very nice in this regard. But I'm not a Mathematician (and technically not a Physicist yet, jsut a major), so uhh, yeah.

    6. Re:Maybe... by alienmole · · Score: 1
      Before you throw your sarcasm around, be sure you understand what the person is trying to say.

      In the OP's defense, it's hard to understand what someone is trying to say if they use the wrong words. The term "abstract thinker" applies to math and programming at least as much, if not more, than it does to poetry. Math and programming both deal with abstractions - in fact, many parts of math are significantly more abstract than anything you find in programming.

      Perhaps you should have said "unstructured thinker" or "poetic thinker".

  8. Interesting... by Night+War · · Score: 1

    Now that's really a new approach to understand maths... What's his reason for approaching math with poetry? I can see that feeling numbers is sometimes much faster than knowing numbers,but doing that sort of thing with imaginary numbers is certainly interesting.

    1. Re:Interesting... by jgardn · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There is something deeply poetic about math. The theorems read like well-rhymed versus. To a guy who appreciates math, "The square of the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the squares of the sides" stirs up a bit of emotion like a well-written poem.

      To a beginner, who hasn't travelled through the wilderness of multi-variable calculus (IE, finding the volume of a hypersphere by taking the integral of it in several dimensions), and who hasn't even seen the simple and elegant Linear Algebra in its full glory, math is still mysterious, and is seemingly unknowable.

      The beginner thinks of math as "2x7" and "4x = 3". They know only a few theorems that make any sense at all. The expert sees how all the theorems interrelate. He sees just how important the ones he learned in High School really were. He sees the grand scheme of things, and it looks like a giant, beautiful fractal, except it is much more complicated, and much more intelligent in design.

      I applaud his efforts. He is taking a very abstract subject in math -- one which I find very enjoyable -- and exposing it to the rest of the world for its beauty.

      --
      The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
    2. Re:Interesting... by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Poems don't rhyme.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  9. This reminds me by arvindn · · Score: 4, Interesting
    ... of an anecdote I came across in an essay about the difficulty of writing math books for the lay reader.

    A statistician met his friend after a long time. After convincing the friend that statistics was not all about adding long columns of numbers, he proceeded to show him some interesting things like how to estimate the population based on a sample using the normal distribution. Pointing at the equation of the Gaussian distribution, the friend asks "what's this?" Statistician: "Oh that's pi, of course". Friend: "You mean the ratio of the diameter of a circle to the radius?" Statistician: "Sure". Friend (indignant): "Youre kidding me! The diameter of a circle can't have anything to do with the population of a country!"

    An extreme example, perhaps, but shows how difficult it can be to write non-technical math books. Too often authors oversimplify things to increase readership. Mathematicians loath this and try to make their writing as stiff and formal as possible, "giving no indication that either the author or the intended reader is a human being". Yup, that's how one mathematician described "The Ideal Mathematician". Any honest effort that attempts to strike a balance needs to be applauded.

    1. Re:This reminds me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      I agree, approximating Pi by 2 is indeed oversimplification.

    2. Re:This reminds me by DownTheLongRoad · · Score: 1

      The problem with that anecdote is that a "lay reader" isn't going to respond, "You mean the ratio of the diameter of a circle to the radius?" when you mention Pi. Usually their eyes will just glaze over and they will go watch Monster Truck Pull on TV.

    3. Re:This reminds me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't understand. How does that anecdote demonstrate that it's hard to write a book about mathematics that the lay reader? In that anecdote, the friend is telling the statistician what he doesn't understand! And that is the essential information that you need when writing expository prose. If you are telling someone how to get to where you are, the first step is to know where they are. Think about it: would you give someone directions to your house without first asking them what part of town they live in and whether they know the part of town that you live in?

      So, to me, the absolutely essential first step in writing a book for the layperson is to spend time studying how the layperson thinks about your subject. Then, you have to come up with a plan. You have to understand what path you are going to take them on in order to get them where you want them to go. If the author has missed these two steps and thinks the first step is writing an outline or firing up the word processor, it's no wonder he finds it hard!

      Let me tell a quick little anecdote that was taught as part of a US history class. It seems that, during the Vietnam war, the US thought they'd get some Vietnamese villagers to stay away from communism by Americanizing them, culturally. So they sent out teams of people to the villages with items that were big part of American culture. American foods, American music, etc. They even brought in some dogs so that the Vietnamese could have American pets. Some time later, they came back to (one of?) the villages to check up, and the conversation went something like this:

      americans: Hey, Vietnamese villagers, how's it hangin'?
      villagers: Pretty good, thanks.
      americans: What did you think of the stuff? How'd you like the food? The music? How are your new pets doing?
      villagers: Oh, we really appreciate ALL of it, especially the dogs. Thanks!
      americans: Hmm, where are the dogs, anyway?

      The point is, if you want someone to understand you, you should try to understand them. If the US had really wanted to Americanize the Vietnamese villagers or otherwise convince them not to side with the communists, they should've sent in anthropologists to live with them and learn about their culture and what makes them tick. Then, instead of hatching a truly half-assed plan and stumbling around doing stuff that looks reasonable on the surface but gets nobody anywhere, they might have had some chance of knowing where the others are coming from and actually communicating what they want to communicate. And it's the same with writing a book.

    4. Re:This reminds me by kcelery · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Very interesting read:

      http://pauli.uni-muenster.de/~munsteg/arnold.htm l

      Mathematics came as a mental tool on studies of real life problems. Over abstraction (unnecessary) creates tormented readers, and I was among one of them.

  10. Only then? by E1v!$ · · Score: 1

    "...Then, and only then, was it possible to figure out the equations..."

    FACT: I got A's in calculus, and did nothing more than 'plow'. It wasn't the easiest thing to do but I learned, and I understand. (I'm a calc tutor now)

    OPINION:
    The above is B.S. Doing this with sections of a book, or even the whole book might be helpful, but only if the book is written to support it (ie a 'themed' book) and it certainly isn't a REQUIREMENT for understanding.

    1. Re:Only then? by Tucan · · Score: 1


      Perhaps the important lesson that the mathemetician that peterwayner knows applies to subject matter that is complicated and abstract and not to calculus.

    2. Re:Only then? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      fact: calculus, especially as taught these days in most north american universities, is pretty lightweight stuff

      opinion: you probably haven't seen any of what a mathematician would call abstract mathematics. I haven't read this book, but some of the points discussed here are sound. When you get out of the kindergarden stuff, you really will have to go at material iteratively, and you will have to work a fair amount of it for yourself before you really get it.

      I don't claim particular expertise in mathematical pedagogy. I do have 2 1/2 math degrees, so I know a little bit about learning the material. Every mathematician I know (including one field medalist) attacks new material this way, at least to some degree. I'm sure there could be exceptions.

    3. Re:Only then? by kevin42 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I got an A in Calc 1, and I've got a 94% halfway through Calc 2 right now, and I'd have to agree with you. I might add though, that even more important than plowing is to DO ALL THE HOMEWORK. There is a direct coorelation between the amount of homework/sample problems people do and how well they understand math. There is a good coorelation between understanding math and the grade you get.

      There have been several topics I was confused about, but I plowed through, then did 50 sample problems (over 20+ hours) and found aftrwards that now I understood it, and it was actually easy. It's like a sport, you have to practice!

    4. Re:Only then? by fitten · · Score: 1

      Yep, this was my method as well. I did *all* the homework and then before each exam, I reworked *all* the homework that we were assigned since the last exam. Before the final, I reworked all the homework given since the beginning of the class. It took a bit of time but my grade was 99.8%.

    5. Re:Only then? by Keebler71 · · Score: 1

      No two minds are alike. I got through college and grad school by doing the first and last problems of each homework set. If you REALLY understand the material, then additional problems are just repetition which may or may not reenforce the material.

      --
      "It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance." - Thomas Sowell
  11. Hands on is the best for those who can by YetAnotherAnonymousC · · Score: 4, Insightful

    IMHO, assuming you have access in school to the resources: the best way to understand concepts like imaginary numbers is through hands on lab work. I would have never understood control systems just from books. But once you start playing around with tuning some circuits and watching response on an oscilloscope, 'imaginary' numbers in your system become very real. As I told someone (a lawyer) once who asked if 'i' made any sense (of course, I corrected him; to any electrical engineer, it's 'j'), "Sure it does, I've seen in on an oscilloscope.

    Granted, if you never get to something like control systems, the above won't make sense. But once you're to a point where you have to deal with imgainary numbers, doing it hands on is best.

    1. Re:Hands on is the best for those who can by zzyzx · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "IMHO, assuming you have access in school to the resources: the best way to understand concepts like imaginary numbers is through hands on lab work."

      Spoken like a physicist. To a mathematican, the best way to understand imaginary numbers is to say something like, "It annoyed people that the equation 'x^2 = -1' didn't have a solution. They just made up an answer to give them something to play with. Oh it also turns out that this models real world stuff for some reason, but that's not very important."

    2. Re:Hands on is the best for those who can by Fabio+Dias · · Score: 1
      Spoken like a physicist. To a mathematican, the best way to understand imaginary numbers is to say something like, "It annoyed people that the equation 'x^2 = -1' didn't have a solution. They just made up an answer to give them something to play with. Oh it also turns out that this models real world stuff for some reason, but that's not very important."

      Bzzt! Wrong. Mathematicians started to handle complex numbers when they found out that to find roots third-degree equations that have only distinct real solutions using Cardano's formula they needed to extract cubic roots of (now known as) complex numbers. This led to the complex number theory.

    3. Re:Hands on is the best for those who can by YetAnotherAnonymousC · · Score: 1

      Well, since everyone's piling on with the academic-class-warfare (no pun intended) =)

      As I am an engineer, I never would have thought anyone would accuse me of sounding like a physicist! Every physics professor I had would have just declared the control system response to be 'intuitively obvious'... =)

      *This post was all in good fun. No actual physicists were harmed in any way*

    4. Re:Hands on is the best for those who can by efflux · · Score: 1

      Bzzt! Wrong. Mathematicians started to handle complex numbers when they found out that to find roots third-degree equations that have only distinct real solutions using Cardano's formula they needed to extract cubic roots of (now known as) complex numbers. This led to the complex number theory.

      Well, the idea was around for a while before Cardan, but they were dismissed as absurd and unnatural. BTW: They needed to extract square roots of negative numbers (imaginary), not cubic roots of complex numbers. For the most part, imaginary numbers weren't considered to be proper objects in Cardan's time, and were primarily regarded as a way to classify types of polynomials. Complex number theory wasn't really legitimized until Euler introduced the notation i and developed the standard rectangular form of complex numbers, a + bi. This is over 200 years after Cardan.

      Imaginary numbers during Cardan's time were refered to as Sqrt(-1), go figure. Euler, indeed, just assigned an arbitrary "answer" to this equation so it could be conceptualized as a mathematical object.

      So why don't you get your dick out of his ass and go study some fucking mathematics.

      --
      Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes. -- Walt Whitman
    5. Re:Hands on is the best for those who can by watzinaneihm · · Score: 1

      I am not sure about the example you picked.I have'nt done too much control systems, but AFAIK almost all the effects you can see in the the lab are the real part of the equation, right? All the equations might be of the form e^ik but what you see on the scope is only sin(k) or cos?(k).
      In this case I think you still have to get back to maths to explain the physics.
      Easiest way to teach somebody to learn imag. numbers is to ask him to code a Fast fourier transform, MHO only.

      --
      .ACMD setaloiv siht gnidaeR
  12. Imagining numbers, eh? by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    So what's the connection to Beowulf clusters? What kind of computational power do these "numbers" things have?

    --
    You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
  13. Barry Mazur ... by glMatrixMode · · Score: 5, Informative

    ... is a very famous number theorist.
    His results have had a key role in Wiles's proof of Fermat's last theorem.
    He's at Harvard - see his homepage.

    --
    War doesn't prove who's right, just who's left.
    1. Re:Barry Mazur ... by Roofus · · Score: 1

      Wiles is the guy who took a whole encyclopdedia volume to prove what Fermat said was slightly too big to fit in the margin of his book, yes?

    2. Re:Barry Mazur ... by glMatrixMode · · Score: 1

      you know, scientists aren't believers : if you don't give the proof they'll assume you don't have it - and hence you can't be trusted. So the fact Fermat said it was a bit too big to fit in the margin cannot not be taken too seriously...

      --
      War doesn't prove who's right, just who's left.
    3. Re:Barry Mazur ... by glMatrixMode · · Score: 1

      ahem, I wrote "cannot not", which of course should be read "cannot".

      --
      War doesn't prove who's right, just who's left.
  14. Understanding the symbols by baywulf · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Does anyone have a good reference sheet of commonly used symbols in advanced math texts. I've been trying to learn stuff on my own but it is hard when you can't even verbalize what you are reading.

    1. Re:Understanding the symbols by mitchkeller · · Score: 4, Informative

      Part of the problem of mathemtics is that there is only a finite symbol set available to us (at least with TEX), so we tend to use the same symbol to mean different things in different fields. I'd try to pick up a book that has an index of notation. (Most have them, you just have to remember to look.) Otherwise, start with an introductory advanced math text (Eggen, Smith, and St. Andre, A Transition to Advanced Mathematics comes to mind), and that should give you the foundations to move onto other books, as any good book will introduce any specialized notation. Another good resource is MathWorld. You can't exactly type in the symbols that you want, but you can search on terms that are appearing around the symbol to try to get a topic, and then things are well cross-referenced, so you can back up to a lower level of understanding if needed.

      --

      "You will only be remembered for two things: the problems you solve or the ones you create." Mike Murdock

    2. Re:Understanding the symbols by kurtkilgor · · Score: 5, Informative

      I highly recommend http://mathworld.wolfram.com for all your math reference needs. You may be referring to the greek alphabet, which is used extensively in math as a source of extra variable names. You can google for that. And I assume you're familiar with the differential symbol (a backwards 6 or a d), the integral symbol (a stretched out S), and the sum symbol (a capital sigma). If you don't know what those are, check mathworld.

    3. Re:Understanding the symbols by belloc · · Score: 1

      Does anyone have a good reference sheet of commonly used symbols in advanced math texts. I've been trying to learn stuff on my own but it is hard when you can't even verbalize what you are reading.

      My answer probably isn't what you'll want to hear: Don't do math this way. It's backwards.

      Math is not at all about symbols. Math is about quantities abstracted from real things (e.g., numbers and lines). Symbols may make it easier to represent these numbers and lines in a systematic, structured, and complex way, but the symbols are not the "stuff" of Math.

      So my advice is: don't start with symbols. Start with the real stuff. Read Euclid, Apollonius, Archimedes. Read Descartes for a wonderful insight into how early algebraic notation (i.e., symbols) developed from geometry. Read the early mathematicians, and don't move to the later ones until you understand what came before.

      Unfortunately, that takes time, discipline, structure, and often, a good teacher. But that's the approach that I suggest to every student of Math.

      Belloc

      --
      I got more rhymes than Jamaica got Mangoes.
    4. Re:Understanding the symbols by jgerman · · Score: 1

      Math is about quantities abstracted from real things


      i.e. symbols. Everything is about symbols. Everything you do, know, and learn. I think you meant "Math is not about notation"

      --
      I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
    5. Re:Understanding the symbols by belloc · · Score: 1

      i.e. symbols. Everything is about symbols. Everything you do, know, and learn. I think you meant "Math is not about notation"

      Oh, no, I didn't mean that at all. When I say that math is not *about* symbols, I simply mean that the symbols themselves are not essential to the science of mathematics. In other words, take the symbols away, and you can still have mathematics. Read Apollonius' On Conic Sections, for example. He gives the definition of a parabola in a very long paragraph of words only, not modern mathematical symbols. But he's talking about the very same parabola that might be signified by algebra as y=x^2.

      What do you take to be the difference between symbols and notation?

      My point was this: abstracted quantities (the subject of the science of mathematics) are not the same as symbols. For a very simple example, the quantity signified by the word "five" (as abstracted from five elephants or five apples or five inches) can be given symbolically as "5" "five" "cinco" "go" "....." "-----" or any number of different ways.

      But all of those symbols signify one and the same mathematical object, that discrete quantity which comes after four and before six.

      I meant what I said: math is not *about* symbols, though it uses symbols to express the things that it *is* about, namely abstracted quantites and their operations.

      Belloc

      --
      I got more rhymes than Jamaica got Mangoes.
    6. Re:Understanding the symbols by jgerman · · Score: 1

      Words are symbols, numbers are symbols. Everything is symbols. The difference I was pointing out between symbols and notation is that the particular notation (the coice in symbols used to convey semantic meaning) is what you meant. For example, using a longer list of symbols, (i.e. the long paragraph of words) is simply a different choice of symbols (notation) to describe the concept. The idea that you are getting at, I believe, is that not knowing the conventional notation used for math shouldn't preclude understanding of math itself. A different set of symbols may help the poster with understanding. It won't however be the best choice for communication, since there is a conventional notation.

      --
      I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
    7. Re:Understanding the symbols by belloc · · Score: 1

      Words are symbols, numbers are symbols. Everything is symbols.

      I agree wholeheartedly with the first two. I did not mean to imply that Apollonius *wasn't* using symbols, I just meant that he was using a different method of signifying.

      However, I disagree with the third. Everything is not symbols. The things signified by symbols, are not themselves symbols. When I say "five" or "cinco" I signify something that is not itself a symbol. When I say "parabola" or "y=x^2", I signify something that is not itself a symbol.

      Just like when I say "red" or "rose", those words are signs of my thoughts or ideas, which in turn, are signs of (i.e., pointers to) real things. Those real things, are not, in turn, signs of anything else.

      My point is that there is a reality that underlies our mathematical symbology or notation that is completely independent of how we choose to signify it. So, my advice to the original poster was this: begin your study of mathematics by understanding the reality, not by trying to decipher the symbols. The symbols are there to *aid* understanding and signification. If they don't help, don't use them.

      Belloc

      --
      I got more rhymes than Jamaica got Mangoes.
    8. Re:Understanding the symbols by Yet+Another+Smith · · Score: 1

      Another good way to learn math, math symbols, etc. is to take a couple of physics courses. Math can be kind of abstract, but since physics builds upon itself, and always has a physical analog for the little symbols, it can give you a good handle on basic calculus & other mathematical principles. I never got good grades in math classes till I got through two semesters of physics in college.

      --
      if ($it != $onething) {$it = $another;}
    9. Re:Understanding the symbols by jgerman · · Score: 1

      My point is that there is a reality that underlies our mathematical symbology or notation that is completely independent of how we choose to signify it. So, my advice to the original poster was this: begin your study of mathematics by understanding the reality, not by trying to decipher the symbols. The symbols are there to *aid* understanding and signification. If they don't help, don't use them.


      That is all syubject to debate. I contend that everything is symbols. You have no way of relating to the world except through symbols, therefore you can't prove that there is any reality apart from them. Additionaly there is no real thing that is 5, or red.




      The symbols are there to *aid* understanding and signification. If they don't help, don't use th


      You're still using symbols when you mean notation.

      --
      I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
    10. Re:Understanding the symbols by belloc · · Score: 1

      That is all subject to debate. I contend that everything is symbols. You have no way of relating to the world except through symbols, therefore you can't prove that there is any reality apart from them. Additionaly there is no real thing that is 5, or red.

      Yes, it's subject to debate. But its a debate that I've had literally hundreds of times, and I'm convinced that over the course of time that I've developed an understanding of its nuances. Oversimplifying things: modern philosophers (beginning with Locke, et al.) have departed from the ancient and medieval understanding that there is an underlying reality. I happen to side with the ancients and against the moderns here. Not everything is a mere product of our minds. There *is* objective reality apart from our own understanding.

      With that understanding, I say that there most certainly is a real "thing" that is five or red. However these are not "things" the same way dogs and doughnuts are things. To use Aristotle's language, dogs and doughnuts are "substances" which exist of themselves, five and red are "accidents" which exist only in substances. Substances and accidents both have real being apart from our minds, though in different ways.

      You're still using symbols when you mean notation.

      I asked you two posts ago to tell me what you thought the difference was. Care to let me in on it?

      Belloc

      --
      I got more rhymes than Jamaica got Mangoes.
    11. Re:Understanding the symbols by jgerman · · Score: 1
      Actually I did:



      The difference I was pointing out between symbols and notation is that the particular notation (the coice in symbols used to convey semantic meaning) is what you meant


      In case you need it in other words notation is the set of symbols that are used. Using one notation over another is what you describe.
      This is what it boils to:




      Math is not at all about symbols. Math is about quantities abstracted from real things (e.g., numbers and lines


      These statements are false. For starters your example is bogus lines and numbers aren't real things. Secondly, quantities abstracted from real things are symbols, no matter what your take on the tangential argument. And thirdly and most importantly, math is solely about symbols. I is an abstract science dealing with the manipulation of symbols regardless of their application.


      I shouldn't have brought the other concepts into the discussion. As it stands, it can easily be argued that symbols are all everything is but that is tangential to the conversation, and I really shouldn't have started that thread.

      --
      I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
    12. Re:Understanding the symbols by belloc · · Score: 1

      In case you need it in other words notation is the set of symbols that are used. Using one notation over another is what you describe.

      Okay. If that's what you mean, then the rest of what you've said makes sense. I still don't agree, but at least it makes sense.

      For starters your example is bogus lines and numbers aren't real things.

      You say this because you think that by "things", I mean "substances". Of course quantities and qualities are not "things" in that sense, but they certainly have *some* being. Their being differs from that of substances. Their being relies on the being of substances.

      For example, there can be no "red" unless there is some red "thing", i.e., substance. That doesn't mean that "red" doesn't exist at all, it means that its being depends upon the being of some substance. This is all just straightforward greek philosophy, and I happen to think in this case that it's true.

      It is an abstract science dealing with the manipulation of symbols regardless of their application.

      I understand that that's your claim. I disagree. I've made a brief case for my position, and I can make a much longer case for it if you'd like. But you just keep asserting yours as if it's manifestly true.

      Maybe slashdot isn't the place to continue this discussion. I'm happy to continue it elsewhere, or to recommend some books on the philosophy of science for you to read.

      Belloc

      --
      I got more rhymes than Jamaica got Mangoes.
    13. Re:Understanding the symbols by jgerman · · Score: 1
      You're right, this is not the place for a long out discussion on this. I'm assuming we can agree to disagree.



      to recommend some books on the philosophy of science for you to read


      Me too ;)

      --
      I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
  15. Discovery of irrational numbers by arvindn · · Score: 1, Interesting
    There is an intriguing story about the discovery of irrational numbers.

    In 1539 the mathematician Tartaglia won a contest involving solving cubic equations. His method used complex numbers, though he did not understand them as such. The mathematician Girolamo Cardano learned the method from him, promising him to keep it secret. However Tartaglia soon died, and Cardano published "Ars Magna" in 1545, in which he described the solution of cubics using imaginary numbers.

    But it would be long before complex numbers would be properly understood and not looked upon with awe and mystery.

    1. Re:Discovery of irrational numbers by arvindn · · Score: 1

      Oops.. that was supposed to be "discovery of imaginary numbers", of course. Sorreeeee

    2. Re:Discovery of irrational numbers by AxelBoldt · · Score: 1

      Tartaglia didn't die soon after. Cardano published because he found a manuscript by some other author explaining the same method and didn't feel he was still bound to the earlier promise. Afterwards, Cardano and Tartaglia fought about this breach for many years.

  16. I got out of math by Lxy · · Score: 2, Funny

    when I started to hear about "imaginary numbers". It's bad enough that we already have as many as we do, now they feel the need to invent some more.

    --

    There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
    :wq
    1. Re:I got out of math by pVoid · · Score: 1
      I would also like to add that imaginary numbers, from a real world stand point, are just as 'absurd' as negative numbers, or even zero.

      They are used to explain some phenomena that would seem trivial from an intuitive point of view (such as sound, resonance, pendulum motion etc).

      Don't let the words frighten you. At least not these... if you are looking for a monster, go look at quaternions in physics.

  17. Discovery of imaginary numbers by arvindn · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I posted this a while ago, but mistyped the subject as "discovery of irrational numbers". Braino :(

    There is an intriguing story about the discovery of imaginary numbers.

    In 1539 the mathematician Tartaglia won a contest involving solving cubic equations. His method used complex numbers, though he did not understand them as such. The mathematician Girolamo Cardano learned the method from him, promising him to keep it secret. However Tartaglia soon died, and Cardano published "Ars Magna" in 1545, in which he described the solution of cubics using imaginary numbers.

    But it would be long before complex numbers would be properly understood and not looked upon with awe and mystery.

    1. Re:Discovery of imaginary numbers by mike_mgo · · Score: 1
      There is an intriguing story about the discovery of imaginary numbers.

      In 1539 the mathematician Tartaglia won a contest involving solving cubic equations. His method used complex numbers, though he did not understand them as such. The mathematician Girolamo Cardano learned the method from him, promising him to keep it secret. However Tartaglia soon died, and Cardano published "Ars Magna" in 1545, in which he described the solution of cubics using imaginary numbers.

      But it would be long before complex numbers would be properly understood and not looked upon with awe and mystery.

      I have nothing to do with this post but figured if the parent could copy it into the same discussion to be modded up twice I should try the same.

  18. recommended books by glMatrixMode · · Score: 4, Informative

    have you seen what books they recommend to 'learn maths of complex numbers' ? Ahlfors and Cartan ! Caution, these are books on complex analysis, not on complex numbers. Don't buy them unless you've got already a good acquaintance on complex numbers ! Moreover, there are other prerequisites for Cartan, like point-set topology and real analysis (don't know for Ahlfors).

    and anyway, these are dated books. Cartan dates back to the 60's and Ahlfors is (imo) even older. The presentation is a bit heavy. I'm sure you can find better and cheaper books. (personnally I learned from Cartan but I didn't find it easy to read).

    --
    War doesn't prove who's right, just who's left.
  19. How Math is Done vs. How Math is Presented by Mignon · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Much of modern mathematical literature is structured with crisp, scripted precision. First there is theorem one, then theorem two, which leads to theorem three, which could only be followed by theorem four, and so on until we reach theorem n.

    I was a math PhD student some years back (but bailed with my Masters), so this review held particular interest for me. One professor I had at some point, probably in college, once compared doing math to cooking. The kitchen might be a mess afterwards, but the finished product looks great.

    He was trying to make the point to us that as we sought to prove the various exercises, we shouldn't expect to go from point A (the hypothesis) to point B (the conclusion) but should instead expect to make several wrong turns and, in effect, make a mess along the way. When we finally got there, though, we should clean things up to make a better presentation. Hence the "crisp, structured precision" of most math texts. A good instructor will, while going over such a proof, offer insight into what thought processes led to each decision along the way.

    These were relatively difficult, but still low-level exercises, since they had both hypothesis and conclusion. One (humbling) thing to remember about reading math is that someone was the first to prove these theorems. Not only did this person not know the direction the proof would take in advance, but he/she didn't know either the hypothesis or conclusion either!

    1. Re:How Math is Done vs. How Math is Presented by martyn+s · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not only did this person not know the direction the proof would take in advance, but he/she didn't know either the hypothesis or conclusion either!

      That's not always entirely true. In theory, you're right, but in both math and science intuition is always a factor. Of course, you can't use your intuition as your proof, but it is often useful to carry you in the right direction.

    2. Re:How Math is Done vs. How Math is Presented by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I think this is very accurate, and not commonly understood. Most mathematics, at least up through calculus, is taught algorithmically. You learn algorithms for taking derivatives, integrals, solving equations, etc. So the way you solve problems is to write the the problem on your paper, then crank through the steps of the algorithm, showing all of the work for each step, until you come to the answer, which is then boxed. Students learn the algorithm by looking at examples of its application, and then mimicking it on their own problems.

      Now we come to mathematics beyond calculus. The student reads through little Rudin, and gets the impression that this is an example of how mathematics is "done". I have seen students start proofs by writing down what they know. Then they try to write down some more stuff that follows from what they have already written down, etc. This is pretty much doomed to failure. I usually tell students that when they are writing mathematics, they should produce at least as much scratch paper, as final product.

    3. Re:How Math is Done vs. How Math is Presented by jgerman · · Score: 1

      One (humbling) thing to remember about reading math is that someone was the first to prove these theorems. Not only did this person not know the direction the proof would take in advance, but he/she didn't know either the hypothesis or conclusion either!


      Funny, I wouldn't have found that humbling, more like ... encouraging.

      --
      I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
    4. Re:How Math is Done vs. How Math is Presented by zzyzx · · Score: 1

      "One (humbling) thing to remember about reading math is that someone was the first to prove these theorems. Not only did this person not know the direction the proof would take in advance, but he/she didn't know either the hypothesis or conclusion either."

      It's not like people prove things at random. At least in my experience, they notice some patterns and start to wonder if that's always true and work on a proof (or disproof) of it.

    5. Re:How Math is Done vs. How Math is Presented by Zork+the+Almighty · · Score: 1

      Have you ever tried proving things at random ? It's actually quite fun.

      --

      In Soviet America the banks rob you!
  20. Re:Five or Six TIMES?!?!?! - Im advanced!!! by Dareth · · Score: 1

    It only took me 4 times in my second Calculus class to get a pass grade and get the hell out!!!

    --

    I only look human.
    My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
  21. For more history... by fractalus · · Score: 2, Informative

    ...look at An Imaginary Tale: The Story of Sqrt(-1) by Paul Nahin. I thought the history behind the development of complex numbers was very fascinating; the people involved were very human, not noble god-like geniuses with no failings. A friend of mine bought this for me for my birthday, as I create fractal art and most of the mathematics I use involve complex numbers.

    --
    People are never as simple as their stereotypes. This applies equally to Christians, Muslims, and Emacs-lovers.
  22. Negative phone numbers?!! by Thud457 · · Score: 3, Funny

    What the hell do you call '555-1212' ?!! Looks like -657 to me!

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

  23. how to read/understand math ... by waterbear · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Given that much of the business of creative mathematicians amounts to inventing new patterns of provable relations between objects and properties, probably there are more ways to understand math than there are branches of math --

    Spatial models just happen to appeal to me -- and the posts here indicate that is probably pretty common. Many of us just live with the convenience of that (and with its limitations, because many math concepts are hard to geometrize). But it's not the only way, and a few folks seem to find other and non-spatial thought patterns more natural.

    In the end, the advice to look over the whole of some new math thing before diving into the detail sounds good, and probably that is because it actively encourages trying to pick out the kinds of relationships and features that the individual reader finds intuitive or meaningful. Those things, whatever they are for the individual reader, will not only stick best in the mind, but also they may in turn provoke further thought and maybe new invention.

    Terry

  24. Ugh by hal200 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Frankly, I'm about halfway though this book and at times, it's all I can do to keep from tossing it in the trash bin in disgust.

    The author seems to be incapable just getting to the subject and explaining himself in a clear and consise manner. Instead, he embarks on these long, florid poetry-filled diatribes about the imagination, and a yellow tulip.

    In the few places where he's actually able to keep himself on topic for more than a page, the historical description of the search for imaginary numbers is actually an interesting story in and of itself.

    Why he feels the need to expound on it with inapropriate references to poetry and half-baked philosophies on the nature of imagination is beyond me. I'm not against the poetry per se, it's just that there are many occasions where I'll read a passage, hit the poetry, sit back and think, "What the hell does that have to do with the subject?" Even when there is a conceptual link, most of the time, it's very weak. (Of the I'm talking about imagination, and the word imagine is in the poem level)

    Frankly, it's been a very dissapointing read. If you're looking for an interesting math book (some people would consider that an oxymoron), I'd recommend David Berlinski's "A Tour of the Calculus" or either of Simon Singh's excellent books ("Fermat's Enigma" and "The Code Book").

    --

    I just want to take over the world...Why does that automatically make me EVIL?

    1. Re:Ugh by wmspringer · · Score: 1

      I haven't read this book, but I second the motion to read Singh's work; I have both Fermat's Enigma and The Code Book and I thought they were very well written.

    2. Re:Ugh by lucasw · · Score: 1

      The author seems to be incapable just getting to the subject and explaining himself in a clear and consise manner. Instead, he embarks on these long, florid poetry-filled diatribes about the imagination, and a yellow tulip.

      There's a lot of this in 'popular science' type books. The authors know that to actually present an equation and explain the actual math will be death for book sales, and so start with a problem, throw in some anecdotal story on how the solution was found, skip the math, and then declare the results to be very beautiful and profound (hence the yellow tulip etc.).

      At times they do attempt to explain the math, equations are skipped, and in doing so there are paragraphs of confusing and frustrating explanation.

      Then the authors use their results of their convoluted explanation as a building block for the next more complicated topic, and expect the reader to realize the brilliance: "So you see, because I've told you to accept my previous hand-waving, you now can see how this further hand-waving would fail utterly if not for the former, and you now are capable of seeing the elegance of my beautiful yellow tulip analogy."

    3. Re:Ugh by watzinaneihm · · Score: 1

      I'll anyday take Fermat over Chaucer.
      I agree I can't understand some of his theorems, but I can't understand poetry at all.

      --
      .ACMD setaloiv siht gnidaeR
  25. Visualizing functions of a complex variable by avitzur · · Score: 2, Informative
    As a shameless self-plug, here's pages on visualizing complex variables with the software I write:

    http://www.PacificT.com/ComplexFunctions.html ,

    http://www.PacificT.com/Exponential.html.

    1. Re:Visualizing functions of a complex variable by glMatrixMode · · Score: 1

      great work ! btw, if you want to have fun, do that for a modular function like the j function. I did it a while ago and that was really beautiful ! If you want a good source for fourier formulas for the j function see for example S. Lang's book "Elliptic Functions".

      --
      War doesn't prove who's right, just who's left.
  26. Imagining Imaginaries by glMatrixMode · · Score: 4, Informative

    Here's a hint to imagine the complex number i. (the mathematicians here will recognize that it's nothing more than a linear-algebraic interpretation of i ).

    First let's reinterpret ordinary numbers. There are many ways to interprete them; here's one which can be (see below) generalized to complex numbers.

    Take an ordinary number n. For example you may choose n=0 or -3 or 150 or sqrt(2)=1.4142... or pi=3.14159265... This is what's called a real number. Here's the interpretation of this number n that I'd like to propose to you :

    You can think of n as multiplying everything by n. For example imagine you've got $10 and n=2. Then, after n has "acted" on your $10, you've got $20. On the other hand, if n=-1, you've got $-10, so you've got a debt.

    Now, let's carry on the example when n=2. The question i'm asking is : is there another number x such that x does half the job of n ? That is, to let x act twice is the same as to let n act once ? Answer : yes, such a number x exists and can even be choosed to be positive - it's called the square root of n. In the case n=2, we have x=1.4142...

    At last, let's carry on the example where n=-1. Can we find a number i such that "to let i act twice is the same as to let n act once" ? In other words, is there any number i which does half of the job of -1 ? Well no real number does, but one introduces the new number i, which does the trick.

    Personnally, this is as I think of i. These examples, with dollars, may seem oversimplified but it's a very deep interpretation of numbers, it's the main idea behind Linear Algebra. For example, in Algebraic Number Theory, the linear algebraic formalism is used to introduce concepts as fundamental as the degree, norm and trace of a field extension.

    --
    War doesn't prove who's right, just who's left.
    1. Re:Imagining Imaginaries by AxelBoldt · · Score: 1
      You left out the best part of the story: geometry. Multiplying with -1, geometrically on the number line, means mirroring a point at the origin, flipping it to the other side. Now what geometrical operation does half the job of mirroring?

      A 90 degree rotation, that's right. And that's what multiplication with i is, nothing but a (counterclockwise) 90 degree rotation. Rather than a number line, you now have a number plane.

      So if you multiply 1 by i, on the one hand you get i, and on the other hand you get a 90 degree rotated version of 1. Where's that? On the y-axis, at the point with coordinates (0,1). That's i.

      Nothing mysterious about it whatsoever.

    2. Re:Imagining Imaginaries by alienmole · · Score: 1

      Your explanation might work as an explanation of square roots, but it really doesn't provide an explanation of i beyound saying that i=sqrt(-1) or i*i=-1, which of course, is its definition. You haven't added any meaning or insight into the nature of i, beyond its definition.

    3. Re:Imagining Imaginaries by glMatrixMode · · Score: 1

      alienmole,

      my point was that numbers could be thought of as "multiplication operators" - the part on sqare roots did not pretend to any originality.

      --
      War doesn't prove who's right, just who's left.
    4. Re:Imagining Imaginaries by glMatrixMode · · Score: 1

      AxelBoldt,

      since the celebrated geometric interpretation does not seem to have convinced the masses, I thought it's be appropriate to present another interpretation. Would have been useless to repeat an interpretation they did already know.

      --
      War doesn't prove who's right, just who's left.
    5. Re:Imagining Imaginaries by alienmole · · Score: 1

      My point is that this doesn't really help anyone to visualize or understand the nature of the square root of a negative number, unless perhaps they didn't understand multiplications/square roots in the first place...

  27. no math? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Computer programming doesn't involve math in the same sense that economics doesn't involve math. You can do both of them with only very simple math skills, but you're going to understand what you're doing a lot better if you do know some math.

    I think people studying software in school (CS majors, that is) should continue to be required to take calculus. And this is coming from someone who failed second semester calculus four times in a row, took it at a community college, dropped it, then took it again, and got an "A".

    So to get to my point: sure, a web browser doesn't require any math. But if the people who wrote them understood more about the mathematics of the efficiency of algorithms, perhaps there'd be a chance that they wouldn't be so damnably slow. I mean really, I have this computer that's multiple hundreds of megahertz, and the blasted thing should be able to render any web page (minus network delays) in tiny fractions of a second, but instead it sometimes takes several seconds. It's possible that it just has so many features that it's going to be that, but I think perhaps instead somebody out there just didn't understand the difference between O(n) and O(n^2), or they didn't care.

    Basically, I think a software professional ought to have enough general math ability that when writing any algorithm, they're just automatically aware of what category it falls into (O(n), O(n^2), O(n log n), etc.) without really consciously thinking about it.

    As an example, if I write code that dynamically resizes an array when it runs out of space, and it does this by adding 5 extra elements each time, I should be aware when doing this that it will take O(n^2) time to put n elements in that array (if I work from the beginning). Whereas if I do what Perl does and double the size each time, I will waste a little memory, but in return the running time becomes O(n) again. They didn't teach me that factoid in school, but they taught me enough math to figure it out on my own. And that's a good thing if software isn't going to be complete crap.

    Having said that, many math textbooks and math courses are complete crap, because teaching math is about like anything else, which is to say that you can do it if you don't have any communication skills and don't even care about being able to communicate, but if you don't have those skills then you'll make lots of people miserable.

    So, IMHO, computer science students should be required to take advanced math, and advanced math students should be required to take creative writing. :-)

    1. Re:no math? by Mattster+P. · · Score: 1

      I think people studying software in school (CS majors, that is) should continue to be required to take calculus.
      What technical school did you get your "Computer Science" degree at (or maybe it was back in the 60's)?
      CS Majors at my College (CSUS) were required to take Calculus I and II, as well as other advanced Math courses. The only courses CS majors didn't have to take which engineers and Math majors did have to take was Calc. III (3d stuff) and Linear Algebra.

    2. Re:no math? by stormshadow97 · · Score: 1

      I agree with the parent. In my opinion, the best reason for CS students to take higher math is not so much for its practical application to real-world projects, but to train the mind to think logically about solving problems in general. I think this is applicable to all areas of life.

      Personally, I think that my understanding of math has made me a much better programmer than I would have been otherwise.

      --
      Unauthorized feeding of Metroids is strictly prohibited.
    3. Re:no math? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Regarding the following segment:

      As an example, if I write code that dynamically resizes an array when it runs out of space, and it does this by adding 5 extra elements each time, I should be aware when doing this that it will take O(n^2) time to put n elements in that array (if I work from the beginning). Whereas if I do what Perl does and double the size each time, I will waste a little memory, but in return the running time becomes O(n) again. They didn't teach me that factoid in school, but they taught me enough math to figure it out on my own. And that's a good thing if software isn't going to be complete crap.

      How is resizing an array O(n^2)? It's linear with respect to the number of elements, which is to say O(n)! It doesn't matter whether you increment by 5 or double the size each time you reallocate. The allocation is constant, then the copy of elements from the old array to the new array is linear.

      If your collection were continuosly growing, then you could say that the complexity of continuously incrementing your dynamic array would have a complexity of O(n^2), but that's not really the way the efficiency of an algorithm is calculated.
      But if you were to think of it that way, then doubling the size of the array with each reallocation does yield a complexity of O(n). It would be O(n log n).

      Further more, when you say you might "waste a little memory", you're dramatically understating the cost. If you remember any of the math you learned in school ( and so far, it sounds like you've forgotten most of it), you'd recognize that doubling is exponential growth. You can use up a whole lot of memory in a hurry that way.

      As far as the specific example goes, you have to choose a reallocation strategy that is appropriate for the use case. Frankly, it sounds like niether your math nor your programming skills are particularly strong.

    4. Re:no math? by Guignol · · Score: 1

      I think he meant for a case where the needed space is likely to double, or almost double (or more).
      Then, everytime you get to the end of the array, you create a new array, with say just one (or five in his example) more cell.
      you then copy all the elements from the first array to the next array. that's O(n) the first time, but if your array needs to double (or probably does). you'll do that n (or n/5) times. thus O(n^2).
      Well I think that's what he meant anyway...

    5. Re:no math? by shemsvoice · · Score: 1

      But he *did* happen to turn out some killer papers...

    6. Re:no math? by rollingcalf · · Score: 1

      It's not the resizing of the array that makes it O(n^2), it's the entire process of populating the array from a data source of an unknown size, in particular the repeated copying of the array elements into the new bigger array.

      But if you were to think of it that way, then doubling the size of the array with each reallocation does yield a complexity of O(n). It would be O(n log n).

      No, it's still O(n). You have demonstrated how the lack of Calculus can harm a programmer.

      If the array doubles and gets copied each time its size is to be exceeded, it will be like the sum of this geometric series:

      1 + 2 + 2^2 + 2^3 + ... 2^x

      where 2^x represents the smallest integral power of 2 that is greater than n. The sum of the powers of 2 going from 2^0 up to 2^x is equal to 2^(x+1)-1.

      n will be no greater than 2^x, and will be bigger than than half of 2^x.

      Therefore:

      2n > 2^x so log(2n) > x.

      Therefore the above sum is less than 2^(log(2n)+1)-1.

      2^(log(2n)+1)-1 = 2^(log(4n))-1 = 4n-1.

      The sum of the series is less than 4n-1, which makes it fit within O(n).

      (all logarithms above are to the base 2.)

      --
      ---------
      There is inferior bacteria on the interior of your posterior.
    7. Re:no math? by adri · · Score: 1

      Case in point. The University of Western Australia, Computer Science degree _does not require_ Math. At all. I'm serious. I _chose_ to do first year math.

      Admittedly I dropped out after first semester, again, out of sheer boredom.

      First semester: Java, Haskell, IT Foundations (word, excel, javascript).

      Second Semester: Matlab (image processing stuff), some UML IIRC.

      At least this years' IT Foundations course is based around Linux rather than Windows. Go mr Glance!

      This illustrates a point - CS courses these days, at least from what I've seen here in Australia, are very job-oriented. You can learn actual CS theory stuff if you choose to but the CS courses that I've seen lead you into multimedia, IT, Application design..

      (Personal note: the univeristy of sydney, at least, has an advanced course set for clueful students but I'm on the wrong side of the country for it. After I finish second semester _this_ year I'll take my completed first year and move into something completely different as CS doesn't really kick it for me..)

    8. Re:no math? by Gin+++Sol · · Score: 1

      The only courses CS majors didn't have to take which engineers and Math majors did have to take was Calc. III (3d stuff) and Linear Algebra.

      Are you sure about this or are you mistaking Linear Algebra for Differential Equations? I graduated from CSUS with a CS degree and was required to take Calc I and II, plus Linear Algebra and Discrete Structures. I voluntarily took Calc III as well.

  28. You have to know math thoroughly to appreciate it. by Anik315 · · Score: 1

    What bothers me about books at this level is that they tend to give an impression of being something more than an extremely superficial (albiet fundamental) approach to the material.

    You really have to know math thoroughly to appreciate it. All this rhetoric about mathematical beauty refers to something quite alien from ordinary human experience. Typically, math nonfiction just gives people terms to throw around that they don't really understand. (like Godel incompleteness)

    If you just want to "get a feel" for advanced mathematical concepts, don't bother. It's a waste of time. On the other hand if you're fairly young and interested in math, it's a fine book to... um... "inspire" you I guess.

  29. Math for dummies? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Books trying to sell math for dummies suck. Just read real math books. It takes time and is hard to understand but it's the only way to really understand.

  30. Random-access reading by GuyMannDude · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Perhaps I (and anyone else who has experienced) would do well to revisit these books using this prescanning approach.

    Actually, I've found this approach useful for many books. In fact, one of the secrets that Evelyn Wood Reading Dynamics uses to improve reading comprehension at fast reading speeds is to skim the intro and the conclusion before tackling the meat of the chapter. It's also useful to skim a section in your textbook before the lecture on the same material. The idea is that you've at least got a vague notion about what the lecture is supposed to be about. This reduces the possibility that you will get so lost during the lecture that you spend the hour fantasizing about the blond with the nice-smelling hair sitting in front of you.

    This approach is also implicit in most briefings that you present or attend when you enter the work world. The first few charts should explain what the purpose of the briefing is and present an outline. This helps the audience see the bigger picture before you get into the nitty-gritty.

    I urge you to try the approach of 'prescanning' or 'random-access' reading if you have some technical material to read. Of course, if the book you're reading does not have a 'conclusions' or 'summary' section, then you have to be a bit more inventive. For example, you may want to skim the chapter and jot down the section headings. Then close the book and spend five minutes thinking about what YOU think the summary is going to be.

    GMD

  31. Sure, blame the book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    ...if this book was available during my school daze, I would have paid attention in class. Then maybe I would have gotten better than a C in math.

    This is just pitiful. Maybe you should have made an effort to pay attention in class even without this book as a crutch! And maybe you could have still gotten a higher grade than C even if you didn't pay attention in class by taking the time to study on your own! Man, I hate when people claim that the reason they failed at something is due to outside circumstances. Dude, you got a C because you didn't try hard enough. Don't give me this "I have always been more of an abstract thinker and The Evil System just isn't set up to teach misunderstood geniuses like me mathematics" crap.

    1. Re:Sure, blame the book by SirLantos · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you should have read the entire comment. Specifically:Then again, probably not.

      I am not blaming the system for my getting average grades, I take full resposibility. I agree with you completly: if I had taken the time to give a damn about about it, I would have gotten better grades.

      What I am trying to say is that this book may have helped me give a damn about math.

      I by no means consider myself a misunderstood genius. Do not group me in the category of geeks who think that they are better than "normal" people.

      --
      The flying hamster of DOOM rains coconuts on your pitiful city.
    2. Re:Sure, blame the book by stephanruby · · Score: 1
      Man, I hate when people claim that the reason they failed at something is due to outside circumstances. Dude, you got a C because you didn't try hard enough.

      This try-harder I-can-do-anything attitude is a myth. It's partly true and it's the right attitude to have, but again, it's not completely accurate. Your environment will affect you to some extent. As a kid, if you have a clueless teacher and a single parent with no education, or a clueless teacher with a set of parents with one or two Masters under their belt, it's going to affect your learning abilities and it's going to affect your motivation. I wish I could point to some measurable quantifiable causal relationships between all the different factors, but I'm afraid it's not that simple.

  32. Innumeracy by kfstark · · Score: 1
    The best book about mathematics is Innumeracy: Mathematical Illiteracy and Its Consequences.

    An excellent read for anyone with a grasp of mathematics, it is also an easy read for people who don't quite get it. The writing is entertaining and gives the mathematically challenged a better handle on basic statistics and how to handle really large numbers correctly.

    It was required reading in our quantitative analysis class during my MBA and I have loaned it out to a number of people to enlighten them.

    --Keith

  33. Most math writers are terrible writers. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 2, Insightful


    "It did no good, he said, to just start plowing through the theorems because that brought confusion. The key was to skim the book five or six times to get an idea of what the writer was trying to do."

    I agree with this advice. However, it wouldn't be this way if math writers were good writers. I have never seen a math book in which the author did all that could be done to make the subject clear. Maybe subconsciously they don't really want you to know what they know. Mathemeticians did not get into the field because they like people.

    1. Re:Most math writers are terrible writers. by mochan_s · · Score: 1

      Math writers are very good writers for what they write. Graduate school in mathematics is nothing more math writing training.

      It's true they have to use only a very limited aspect of the English language to convery their ideas. It's like looking at computer code and trying to figure out what it does, instead of looking at what something does and then figuring out where the code for it is and how it work.

    2. Re:Most math writers are terrible writers. by hnoon · · Score: 1

      The previous reply to your post, though almost a troll, does have a good point; that Mathematicians tend to write for their own community. That isn't to say that some of them have written books for non-Mathematicians. Try Fermat's Enigma. I don't know too many non-mathematicians who haven't loved this book.

    3. Re:Most math writers are terrible writers. by dvdeug · · Score: 1

      However, it wouldn't be this way if math writers were good writers. I have never seen a math book in which the author did all that could be done to make the subject clear. Maybe subconsciously they don't really want you to know what they know. Mathemeticians did not get into the field because they like people.

      I think that's unfair to mathematicians; a lot of them may not be "people people", but that doesn't mean they dislike people; it means they don't understand the social behavior of people, and don't enjoy being around large groups of people (because they behave in a way that non-people people percive as irrational and scary), an entirely different matter.

      I think the blame for unclear math books is fourfold. First, writing is a different skill from mathematics. Most good clear science works are written by tech writers, not by scientists. Secondly, when writing we tend follow the examples we have before us, especially those don't consider ourselves skilled writers. Thirdly, if we can write as clear a book as those who have come before us, no one will complain; if we totally change the rules and write in a whole new style, then someone might complain. Lastly, scholarly math is hard. You can't just omit the proofs, so large chunks of your book has to be taken up with complex material. Some may like Mandelbrot's "The Fractal Geometry of Nature", but from a mathematician (or computer scientists)'s point of view, it sucks, because it omits all the fine details. All that does not make for clear texts.

  34. Some statistician! by volpe · · Score: 3, Funny


    Statistician: "Oh that's pi, of course". Friend: "You mean the ratio of the diameter of a circle to the radius?" Statistician: "Sure".


    Where I come from, we call that value "two".

  35. New ways to teach math... by L0stb0Y · · Score: 1

    I think new ways of teaching math like this are great. Having a math degree myself, I was recently asked to speak at a career day at a local school. The number one things the kids wanted to know is *why* they needed to learn math...

    This book is a great step towards teaching/giving interest to a larger 'math-challenged' audience.

    Besides, if it wasn't for math guys, we wouldn't have computers... >:) (Interestingly enough, Alan Turing killed himself with an APPLE. hehehe ok bad joke)-

    "The reason that every major university maintains a department of mathematics is that it's cheaper than institutionalizing all those people"

    LosT

    --
    "We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams."
  36. Relating to complex numbers by mahler3 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I once had a EE professor who explained complex power (i.e., the complex number component of AC power) with a beer analogy:

    Complex power is like the head on your beer. You can't do anything useful with it (e.g.: drink it, or use it to power your PS2), but you have to carry it around with you, consuming resources. And, of course, you try to minimize it, where possible.

    Worked for me!

  37. Re:Let me get this straight... by BobRooney · · Score: 1

    The destinction commonly used to define a terrorist act as opposed to a really really bad attack during wartime is the following: A political and diplomatic state of "War". The bombings of dresden and Tokyo involved a horrible loss of life. If the ARMY AIR CORE(not the USAF) had the technology to only destroy military targets they would have (much as the USAF currenlty does with laser guided weapons and cruise missiles). Furthermore, due to the attack on Pearl Harbor by the Japanese when the US and Japan WERE NOT AT WAR (i.e. an act of terrorism) a formal war was begun. As such, attacks on industrial centers should be expected and civilian populations should have evacuated much as the English city of Coventry was evacuated when it was learned that it was going to be bombed durring WWII..

  38. Measure by mrcparker · · Score: 2, Informative

    Pretty much any technical book I pick up I instantly measure it against
    Expert C Programming just based on the fact that I have never come accross a book as clear, informative, and entertaining in any field. Looking at my bookshelf here at work I have math books, programming books, general documentation - and most of them are dry as hell and were a pain to get through. Has anyone found a good math book that can match Expert C Programming in its writing?

  39. Fritjof Capra by Kenneth+Stephen · · Score: 1

    Deja vu. This is exactly what I experienced when I read "The Tao of Physics". Couldnt he have just talked about physics instead of sounding like John Edward from "Crossing over with John Edward"?

    --

    There is no such thing as luck. Luck is nothing but an absence of bad luck.

  40. Math is easy by +P'ther · · Score: 3, Insightful

    As a Math PhD student,my opinion is that math is in fact very easy. It all follows from simple logical thinking.

    However, most books try to impress with lots of formulae without explaining the basic math behind them. They focus on being able to do the calculations, but not on actually understanding what is going on.

    I would compare that to writing programming code without adding any comments. When following the code you'll see you get the right result, but if you have to find out how it exactly works, it takes a LOT of work, because you don't have the whole picture.

    If you really want to understand math, don't take a book on complex numbers, but take something even simpler than that, then try to really understand what is going on.

  41. Imaging = photoreading. by JRHelgeson · · Score: 1
    I don't see any of this work as particularly groundbreaking.

    The technique he uses to preview the material 5-6 times is known as photoreading. A technique taught by a company Learning Strategies

    I am a certified Photo Reader, I can cruise through a 400 page technical book in one night, and recall it all the next day and every day thereafter.

    The remainder of the techniques he talks about are "Mind Mapping" which are also taught by Learning Strategies.

    Sounds to me like a book that teaches you a different perspective on mathematics, but doesn't teach you any new knowledge.

    --
    "Give a man fire, and he'll be warm for a day; set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."

    --
    Good security is based upon reality and common sense. Common sense is a function of having common knowledge.
    1. Re:Imaging = photoreading. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      "photoreading"

      Yeah, "as seen on TV".... Sounds like total bullshit to me.

      " can cruise through a 400 page technical book in one night, and recall it all the next day and every day thereafter."

      So can my camera. Has it learned anything? Sorry, but you're full of shit.
      Would you submit yourself to a double-blind test of your claim?

      I mean come on, the web site has claims like:
      ""I wrote a novel in three days, thanks to the PhotoReading whole mind system." Ron Cyphers, Denton, Texas"

      Sure, so reading improves my novel writing skills? What a bunch of utter tripe and nonsense. I mean really.

  42. A short imaginary joke by jbolden · · Score: 3, Funny

    If you think about it over history you can see how people got less and less confortable with number systems as they got more complicated.

    We started with natural numbers
    then added fractional numbers
    then added negative numbers
    then added irrational numbers
    then added imaginary numbers

    1. Re:A short imaginary joke by Kevan_moran · · Score: 1

      What I find amazing is that we don't need any more types of numbers. This is a complete list of all of the types of numbers and there are no more types to be discovered. Though your list doesn't differentiate between positive natural numbers and the natural numbers including zero which I believe was a big hurdle overcome by the Arabs. I remember asking my school teacher this when we got to complex numbers - do we know how many more types are there or are there an infinite number of types to be discovered? Nope he told me that's it, you've learnt them all. I guess what he meant was "these suffice as solutions of all polynomial equations" Even though I did maths at university - I never saw a proof of this - then again number theory was a post-grad course.

    2. Re:A short imaginary joke by jbolden · · Score: 1

      That is actually not a number theory result its a result in algebra. There are obviously extensions of the complex numbers that useful properties.

      For example consider the field of rational polynomials with complex coeffecients: i.e.
      f(x) / g(x)
      where g(x) is not the 0 polynomial. The complex numbers sit inside this field since a complex number c can be written as:

      (0x + c) / (0x + 1)....

      So there most certainly are "extensions"

      What your teacher probably meant was that if add any additional non transendental vectors to the reals (i.e. an extension of the reals which is not an infinitely large vector space -- the way the reals are over the rationals for example) then there is only one extension which preserves communitivity and only 2 that preserve associativity (the complexes and the hamiltonians).

  43. Need to explain begets the need for higher math. by Chemisor · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I think that the reason that most people do not know mathematics is that they do not care about mathematics. When you are reading about abstract concepts that have no correspondence to your own experience, you are justifiably frustrated. Just as the desire to learn the subtleties of one's natural language can come only from the need to explain new experiences, so the desire for higher mathematics can come only from the need to express new abstractions that vaguely coalesce in your mind as you tackle some unusual programming task. My recent programming adventures provide an example of this happening. For the last few months I've been struggling with using dataflow graphs as a generic programming tool, and the need to describe the entities I was creating pushed me into rereading mathematical texts that lay dormant on my shelves for quite some time. And I found consolation in multivalued functions, and operators, and some abstruse terminology from group theory. And then my ideas suddenly seemed a little clearer and cleaner and I think I could explain them better now than before.

  44. Book about the exponential function by rmcd · · Score: 1

    If you are interested in books of this sort, I highly recommend e: the Story of a Number" by Eli Maor. He strikes a wonderful balance between history and mathematics. He has also written other books (that I have not yet read) about infinity and trig functions.

  45. Numbers at right angles to each other by Ashtead · · Score: 1
    As part of a theory course I held for some prospective Radio Amateurs, I mentioned how the complex numbers turned out useful when dealing with electrical components at AC.

    The argument went as follows: "We have a series connection of a resistor and inductor, with some AC current going thru them. This is drawn as a set of rotating pointers, with the current and voltage of the resistor to the right, the voltage of the inductor 90 degrees ahead of the current, pointing upwards.

    "The ratio for the voltage to current for the inductor is w*L, but note that these voltages are 90 degrees out of phase. We use the label j to indicate this, so multiply with j means turn the phase 90 degrees. So the voltage for the inductor becomes j*w*L."

    To emphasize this, the same argument was repeated again for a capacitor, ending with the formula V = -j / w * C, and again it was noted that we can turn things around by multiplying with j.

    "Now, look at what happens if we multiply twice by j; we end up with the pointer going the other way around. Evidently j*j = -1."

    Thus the meaning of the complex numbers was imparted, avoiding the gee-whiz effect of the expression "square root of -1".

    On a much lighter note, when I went to University, they would offer so-called "Thousand Island Dressing" which appeared to be a 50/50 mix of mayonnaise and ketchup. We called it "600+j800 islands" indicating that we would have to imagine some of them to make the full 1000...

    --
    SIGBUS @ NO-07.308
    1. Re:Numbers at right angles to each other by strange_attract0r · · Score: 1

      The use of complex numbers in electrical engineering is simply to reduce the tedium involved in the math, because an exponential e^(jwt) is so much easier to deal with than a trig function cos(wt).

      j (i) doesn't actually mean anything to us, it's just a convenient invention.

      So we pretend our input, cos(wt) is actually an exponential e^(jwt) (which is cos(wt) + jsin(wt) anyway), and then do our analysis on that using differential equations, which with an exponential input is absurdly easy. Then we throw away any complex parts (which didn't exist anyway) at the end to get the answer we were after in the first place.

      This of course is for linear circuits only (with inductors, resistors, capacitors) and relies on superposition.

      --
      This sentence no verb
  46. The best math book I ever read by dtmos · · Score: 1

    The best math book I read while getting my degree, and the most unique math book I've ever seen, was/is "A Pathway into Number Theory," by R. P. Burn (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1982, ISBN 0521241189).

    Burn covers the main points of an introduction to number theory with what I can only describe as a combined experimentalist/Socratic approach--the book has no prose text in the conventional sense, and no formal proofs. Rather, the book is a series of questions that build upon each other, starting with the simple (e.g., "What is the relation between each number in table 1.1 and the number below it?") and building to the powerful (e.g., the fundamental theorem of arithmetic). Burns works through special cases of fundamental results, then leads the reader to speculate on the underlying principle, then helps him prove that it is true in general.

    In the introduction he states that the book was put together "by keeping a record of how I actually resolved the blocks which I encountered as I read a number of standard texts. Time and again, it was the exploration of special cases which illuminated the generalities for me. This collection of explorations was then organised into a sequence in such a way that the 'pathway' would climb towards the standard theorems which occur here as problems for the student at the end of each section." It was a marvelous way to learn.

    It's still in print.

  47. Re:This is great....Flatland by wantedman · · Score: 1

    FlatLand!
    Flatland is a great way to visualize geometric shapes and concepts in 0d, 1d, 2d, 3d, and it begins to talk about 4d. Of course, 4d wasn't really understood when this book was written, but its a great and fun start.

  48. Man by Richy_T · · Score: 1
    What are you, a freak? Just use


    char buffer[VERY_BIG_NUMBER];


    like everyone else and the problem just goes away.


    VBG


    Rich

  49. Complex numbers shouldn't make physical sense by mesterha · · Score: 1

    The reason complex numbers are so hard to understand is because they are rarely used to model the real world. Real numbers are intuitive because they are generally used to represent a magnitude. The variables in a problem often represent real numbers. However, for some problems, it becomes very difficult to work with real numbers. This is where complex numbers come to the rescue.

    Complex numbers have extra properties that make it easier to solve problems, and they are a superset of the real numbers. To solve a problem, just assume the variables are complex and generate all the solutions. Any real solution to the original real problem must be a solution to the complex complex problem, and any real solution to the complex problem must be a solution to the original real problem. Therefore, you just need to generate all the solutions and throw away any complex solutions.

    This is how complex numbers are used in practice. They are just a mathematical tool. Without this burden of giving complex numbers a physical interpretation, (Though this is still possible for some types of problems) it makes more sense to view them as abstract two dimensional objects. Addition is just vector addition and multiplication is scalar multiplication along with rotation.

    This is one of the main ways math is generalized. By adding extra properties to an object, it makes it easier to work with the object. This can be seen in the historical changes in the concept of a number. From natural, integer, rational, real, and complex. By adding more structure, the object actually becomes easier to use.

    Of course, the another way to generalize is to take a result and strip away all the unnecessary details. For example, one starts with calculus on intervals and then proceeds to metric spaces and then topologies...

    --

    Chris Mesterharm
    1. Re:Complex numbers shouldn't make physical sense by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      Your statement about "abstract two dimensional objects" actually hints that it's not hard to give complex numbers a real physical meaning to explain them to someone...for exmaple, real numbers could be longitude, and imaginary latitude, then a point on a map could be a complex number.

    2. Re:Complex numbers shouldn't make physical sense by mesterha · · Score: 1
      Your statement about "abstract two dimensional objects" actually hints that it's not hard to give complex numbers a real physical meaning to explain them to someone...for exmaple, real numbers could be longitude, and imaginary latitude, then a point on a map could be a complex number.

      If this was the case, one would just use a two dimensional vector. Why bother with a complex number. The interesting thing about complex numbers is how they work algebraically. If you want to give a complex number a real physical meaning then you need to give a physical interpretation to addition and multiplication.

      Even then it's somewhat besides the point. The primary use of complex numbers is as a mathematical tool to solve real valued problems. The solutions we care about deal with real values. Complex numbers numbers just make it easier to solve the equations.

      Of course, this doesn't mean that complex numbers are uninteresting. It's very interesting to look at the extra properties they give us that make it easier to solve problems. However, I think it's the reason people find them so confusing. People think there must be some real world interpretation of a complex value, when in fact, the first thing one does after solving the problem is throw away all the complex solutions.

      --

      Chris Mesterharm
    3. Re:Complex numbers shouldn't make physical sense by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      If this was the case, one would just use a two dimensional vector

      Of course, a complex number is a two dimensional vector.

      The coordinates on a map provide a real world example, which was my point. I can give definitions of multiplication and addition in my latitude and longitude example that result in a vector space.

      The solutions we care about deal with real values.
      oh no, if you study the physical sciences in even a rudimentary manner, you will find there are measurable quanties in the real world which are represented by complex numbers. For example, in an electrical circuit, the resistance has a pure real component, and the reactance an imaginary one (inductance positive and capacitance a negative imaginary value), and the impedance is the magnitude of that complex number. These can be measured!

      There are numerous other such cases in fluid dynamics, mechanics, quantum theory. In fact, in advanced treatments in these fields, sometimes even higher order tuple vectors have use in the real world

  50. It's simpler to take a peek, then dive ... by fferreres · · Score: 1

    I found out that in order to learn math, you must know BEFOREHND, with an intuitive example, what the freak is going on. Nothing is better than an explanation meant for kids but writen by profesionals. And when the teacher is not clear, then the KID let's him know (so he has to explain it again!). And these answers try to be intuitive and fun. It's been a godsend to me, because answers like that are very handy. And I don't remember having fun while I learned...

    Dr. Math - http://mathforum.org/dr.math/
    Math Forum - http://mathforum.org/

    --
    unfinished: (adj.)
  51. Simple answers to all "complex" questions ... by fferreres · · Score: 1
    ... right here .

    Sample questions:

    Can you explain complex numbers simply?

    How do you graph imaginary numbers?

    Imaginary Numbers in Real Life

    Is it possible to find the square root of a negative number and, if so, to what number system do these square roots belong?

    How is the square root of -1 possible?

    What are imaginary numbers, what is their purpose, and how are they used?

    What is i?

    What exactly is the complex number system comprised of? ... and many more ...

    --
    unfinished: (adj.)
  52. Darn! by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

    And I clicked on this story link because I thought it was about corporate accounting... darn...

  53. In Through the Revolving Dimension Doors by kaihow · · Score: 1


    It's remarkable that even after inverting huge vectors of hundreds or thousands of dimensions (the equivalent of flipping a pancake in 7900-dimensional-space), complex numbers still awe and terrify and lend mathematical insight.

    Why is it that we can gain mathematical insight by using a 1000-dimensional matrix with complex entities, as opposed to a 2000-dimensional matrix with only real numbers?

    Human intuition is illogical even in field of mathematics, the mainstay of logic. Look at the great mathematical tools and paradigms that people have opened up over the past centuries. Many of these are not about opening up mathematics, but opening up the minds of mathematicians.

    Oh mind, what did I ever do to you to deserve this?!