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Dell Takes the Low Road Regarding Ink Cartridges
Anonymous Coward writes "Dell released a line of printers today, manufactured by Lexmark. As covered by by Yahoo they '..contain a chip that disables the cartridge if it is refilled and replaced in a Dell printer..' and 'The cartridges are different sizes than cartridges from other printer vendors, including Lexmark, the spokesperson said. This will limit the amount of knockoff cartridges available, but only until someone figures out how to reverse engineer Dell's cartridges.'" In the interest of full disclosure, note that the poster sells knockoff carts.
usually on slashdot using technology and not legalese is the high road to preventing things you don't want.
Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
If Lexmark does it on their own, would Dell's version be any different?
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Free your mind.
Saying that Dell taking the low road by preventing the sale of third party ink cartriges would be akin to saying the same of Microsoft and the X-Box. Dell sells printers at close to cost, making up for it because of package deals and the extra sales of their proprietary cartridges. Don't knock them for trying to make their money back.
Have you been stalked by Seth today?
New cars' gas tanks will not be able to be refilled. If you need new gas, you will have to buy a new gas tank from Ford, GM, etc. This will ensure you get the highest quality feul that will ensure the maximum life of your car. A smart chip will prevent manual refilling.
I bought my HP laserjet for $240. About the $289 dollar inkjet from Dell. Inkhet printers are typically $200-$100.
After switching to laser I will never go back. I do not need color for most documents and the quality and reliablity are so much better. My epson inkjet blows goatballs and always jams.
http://saveie6.com/
would be in direct violation of the DMCA.
Unless you are basing your operation in a more civiliezed part of the world, that is.
How small a thought it takes to fill a whole life
I agree. I bought an hp laserjet 1000 the low end version which I assume was shitty. It rocks.
Even the lowest end laser printers are so much more reliable and faster then the highest end ink jet.
Only 1 paper jam ever with my HP.
My epson ink jet cost only $50 but I blew over $150 over the years for ink.
I still use my original ink cartridge on my laser printer because it can do over 2.5k copies!
The quality of the ink is better as well and the images are sharper.
http://saveie6.com/
Dell has released an extremely cheap printer. This extremely cheap printer uses ink cartridges which create a revenue stream for Dell, but also wear out and stop functioning to spec after a certain amount of time.
Some third party is upset that they cannot refill those cartridges, even though they were not designed to be refilled, and are at the end of their lives.
Consumers have a multitude of options regarding printing technology, at widely varying costs per page. Dell's decision has not eliminated any of the other suppliers or technologies.
In short, unless you manufacture inkjet refill kits, don't worry about this, it doesn't matter and it would change your life in the least.
At least it doesn't require that you have to print exclusively on Dell paper. I bet someone is inventing that right now.
Open source development is my way of competing with the low-cost programmers in India...
...when you refill ink cartridges, you're refilling terrorism!
In Soviet Rush, today's Tom Sawyer gets high on you.
I don't think it will.
As long as most people blindly accept the pap they get from Dell, they will buy printers like this one as well. The end result? Dell sells printers and ties them to the cartidges. They're just looking to capitalize on their place in the market . . . appealing to the ignorant buyers in households who know no better options.
Real markets depend upon easy access of producers and consumers, and an informed consumer on the products of the market. In this case, we have neither; ergo, we have no market. We have another Windoze in the making.
It's situations like this one that make me doubt the "free market."
...tizzyd
The only printer I have working now is the old receipt thermal printer from my former cash register. It's blazingingly fast, but only does 60 columns. And it's really small text. Great for grocery lists, for code not so much. And I only have two rolls of the free Service Merchandise paper left.
Anyway, there's my random thought for the day. Thought I'd share. I think now I'll head over to ebay.
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
One other advantage that makes Laser printers superior.... NO SMUDGING!
I have had professors refuse to accept or mark papers handed in printed on ink jets because if they spilled their coffee on it, the text would smudge!
-
Picky Sadistic professors: 1
Inkjets: 0
I am not the only one who realizes that it's cheaper to buy a new printer than a set of replacement catridges.
So, what do you think happens to the old printer? it gets tossed; and then it gets dumped in a landfill or china - neither is a very good option.
I don't see how does that *not* impact my life.
Besides, environmental issues aside, while cheap, printers DO COST MONEY TO MAKE, and throwing them away because the manufactures decides on a fucked-up business model only drives up the cost eventually.
I really don't like this model the inkjet people has taken on. I mean, I understand it with games consoles, but the analogy don't really compare. It's like if Xbox costed less than your typical came and always came with coupon for a free game of your choosing - or a car that's so cheap you will buy it for the tank of gas that the dealer gives you. It's not a good business model anywhere else, why would the printer people get all drunk over it?
My life in the land of the rising sun.
Ditto on the lasers blowing the inks out of the water. I've got two lasers at home I picked up on my local county online auction. I picked up an Apple 12/640 for $40 and a Lexmark Optra Lxn+ for $68. Both of them are still on the toner cartridge that was sitting in them when I bought them and print flawlessly. The Apple printer had 6800 pages on it and the Lexmark had 32,000 and they sold them for small change. I felt like a thief picking them up from the county warehouse.
Last inkjet printer I bought sits in the closet waiting for it's next set of cartridges. Every time I think I need to print something in color I price the carts and say "nevermind". That's what cheap printers with expensive ink create. A customer who you make nothing (or next to nothing) off of when you sell him the printer and who never can bring himself to pay for the expensive refills.
Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
This sort of thing only bothers me when the manufacturer takes action to restrict the customer's ability to use the product as the customer desires, and the customer doesn't realize this until he gets it home.
As long as the customer is made aware of the artificially engineered restrictions, then I figure it's cool. Customers who don't want to accept those restrictions don't have to buy the product. It's not like DeLL has a monopoly on printers.
It's as easy as that. I usually "buy" (i.e.price) the cartridges first.
My dad ran a laser printer cartridge recharge/refurbish business for a while several years ago. IIRC, a lot of printer manufacturers would also collect these old cartridges to do the same and resell them as used. What's preventing Dell/Lexmark/whoever from doing something like this? There's obviously a market for it, they'd save on manufacturing costs and empty cartridges would stay out of the landfills for a while.
This "feature" in Dell printers reminds me of what Epson does to its entire line of ink jets. Personally, I own an Epson Photo 1290 that I use very regularly in my studio to print photos to be framed for sale. Buying loads upon loads of Epson OEM ink is certainly not very economical. So instead, I bought a continuous inking system. Basically, several large bottles of ink are piped directly into a modified ink cartridge, essentially providing a cartridge with mega-capacity. It's economical, it's more convenient, and most of all, it's more versitile. Instead of standard Epson ink, I can choose from inks with different characteristics and color gamuts. You haven't seen beauty until you've seen 4-tone black and white photos from a fairly-standard ink jet printer!
Unfortunately, the chipped Epson cartridges poses a problem. Not only will the chips tell the printer when the cartridges run out of ink, it will also disable the printer until it is replaced. Moreover, the chips don't even check the level of ink remaining. Instead, it counts the number and size of pages printed, and guesses when the ink is gone. With a continuous inking system and it's near-infinite capacity, this is not ideal.
As a result, several groups have developed workarounds. Some have made write-protected chips that are "reset" when the printer is turned off. Others have made devices to alter the ink-level information stored on the chip. And last I heard, there was work being done on a software workaround. Certainly, there are bypasses, and they have already been used for other printer manufacturers.
If anyone is interested in printer-mods, check out CIS and Chip Resetter.
If these workarounds were not available, I would certainly have no bought an Epson printer. But at the same time, I can understand the manufacturers' position on third-party carts. Ink cartridges, not printers, are where the money's made!
Umm....of the 4 printers being offered by Dell, only one is an inkjet. The other three are Laser's, and the toner cartridge is likewise - proprietary.
Everyone please come down, this is self-regulating capitalism in action. It is well known fact that there are little to no margins in printers themselves. The way Dell is going to make up what is more than likely a loss on the printer itself is to sell printer cartridges. Think of it as a loan, they sell you the printer at or below cost so the consumer does not have to bite the bullet and pay for the full cost of the printer (And the manufactures profit). Consumers like it that way! People like a cheap upfront cost!
It is the exact same way with cellphones, look at the cost of a unlocked (gsm) cellphone compared to the cost of getting the same phone under contract with a cellphone provider that locks you into the use of that one provider. Granted, some people do go for the unlocked phones, but the vast majority are fine with a locked phone from the provider because it is the same phone but much cheaper. Same with DirecTV who eat a loss of somewhere around $200 for each reciever they sell. Oh, and it only works with DirecTV.
If there was a market for printers that used some sort of universal cartrage, someone would make it thanks to capitalism. If you want something close get a laser, there is much less focus on consumables in that market, but of course you are going to pay a much higher upfront cost. (I have a laser and personally I wouldn't use anything else)
If you don't like it don't buy an ink jet printer, and/or make the market known for a inkjet printer that is not subsidised and uses an open design for cartriges, but frankly gripping at length at how Dell is trying to screw the consumer with a perfectly legitiment business model (And one that most consumers like) is not productive and gets quite tiresome.
The cheaper the printer the more it costs per page. Period, it's not just a function of laser vs inkjet. A high output multi drum digital colour copier will print out what looks like shiny magazine (national geographic/cosmo) looking output for a few pennies a page, best of all a machine like that will only set you back thirty grand or so. Think of a lexmark/dell printer as a Polaroid camera(ya'll do remember polaroids, right?) and don't stress over the whole thing.
You know as well as I do that many people look at the printer price, not some complex calculation of cost per page, pages per cartridge, cartridge price and # of pages over printer lifetime, at least not when this big red sign "SALE: Only XX.99$" is beaming towards you.
:p), or my printer to accept paper of any color, and not only paper with a hidden "printer" watermark.
Personally, I would consider "ink" as a commodity product. Just like I expect my car to run on gas from any petrol station (assuming right octane at least
I don't have a problem with the business model though as long as it is clearly labeled. "Can only be used with [brand] ink cartridges. Third-party cartridges or ink refill is not possible. Attempts to circumvent this is illegal under the DMCA and punishable by [whatever it is]." in red. That should kill sales pretty quick...
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
The unfortunate thing about getting printers so cheap and so un-used, is that it's your tax dollars at work!
How can a few onces of ink cost $30 - $40????????
Since the days (20 years ago) when scammer Mikey Dell placed a dozen two-page spread ads (unpaid for) in PC Magazine pretending to be 12 different Texas companies, he's pretty much decided it's more comfortable down there.
There is no reason to buy one of these Dell printers when you can buy another brand that doesn't have this "feature." Depending upon what you're printing and how much, it may be worthwhile to invest in a decent laser printer. The price per-page on laser printers is far less than that of inkjet printers. If you print a lot, a laser printer will eventually pay for itself. You do have to be careful of course in what you buy since not all are made the same. I couldn't tell you what to buy right now, but I bought a Lexmark 12ppm laser printer three years ago and I've yet to run out of toner for it. The price was $499 on clearance. When I do need to replace the toner cartridge I can buy 3rd party and refilled cartridges very cheaply. If I want to add more memory to the printer I can do that very cheaply as well because it works with standard 72-pin EDO simms.
Here is a little bit of printer tivia for you. The printer division of HP makes derives 75% of its profits from the sale of ink and toner cartridges. Remember that the next time some company tries to lock you in to buying cartridges from them.
Lee
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
"The market" can work things out if the consumers have the information. You can imagine a series of printers that cost more but take "commodity" ink being popular with some people while some people like the "minimum up-front cost" Dell/Lexmark path.
Nutrition labels, car MPG labels, appliance Energy Star labels ... these are all cases where a little government arm-twisting gives us a much more competitive and responsive market.
The theme is: use transparency to bring to the surface costs being shifted to the consumer. If they still choose to consume ... so be it. This same great strategy is the basis of yesterday's article about
requirng labels on copy-restricted materials.
Think, write, think, edit, think...then post.
if they would be even halfway creative and use the ROM on the chip for something useful, such as storing color or viscosity information about the inks. This would enable companies to periodically reformulate their inks (to increase longevity, saturation, or even just due to manufacturing variation) while preserving perfect matching from cartridge to cartridge. They could also license this to third parties to enable the sale of quadtone, hextone, or true six color inks (instead of the usual light cyan and light magenta, the other two inks might be orange and blue, or spot colors). This would add real value, but instead this technology is being used for the singularly unimaginative use of vendor lock-in. It might not be good for third-party drivers (such as Gimp-Print), but if printer vendors used these chips for useful purposes, it actually would benefit users.
People actually should be careful about third-party cartridges and refill kits; some of these are very bad, and if you're not careful with refill kits you can cause problems either by introducing air bubbles or debris. Some printers (Canon and HP that I know of) include the print head with the cartridge, and the head isn't designed for a very long life; the quality will probably degrade after a few refills. Epson printers use a long-life head technology, but the flip side is that if you damage the heads, you're either looking at an expensive repair or a new printer. Refill kits are also messy. However, that really should be for the user to decide.
So, what happens when Dell realizes they're not making enough money on printers and discontinues them?
Where are you gonna get ink?
Why buy from Dell when it's just a remarked Lexmark? Just buy the Lexmark, the ink/toner will be much more widely available, and probably less expensive.
Nothing to see here; Move along.
Most people are missing the biggest problem with Dell not having compatible cartridges. Right now, if you run out of ink while printing your paper/report/projet that is due TOMORROW you can simply pop over to the nearest office supply store and get a new ink jet cartridge, or if it's late you can go to the 24-hour super Wal-Mart since even they carry HP/Lexmart/Canon ink jet cartridges. If you get a Dell and you run out, what are you going to do? Order a new one that will be shipped at best overnight and pay the overnight shipping charges on a $30 cartridge? Or will you decide to wait a week while UPS Ground delivers it? Either way you are heavily screwed. Dell is going to make some big enemies when people find out they can't buy a replacement cartridge locally.
Years ago (4) I was impressed when my neighbor got his HP printer picked up at his house, fixed by HP and sent back to his door step.
HP is cool! I said.
I buy a deskjet. 842c! I run out of ink in a week with my wimpy half cartridge that came with it.
HP stinks.
I refill all my colors and black appropriately (therfore spending as much as the printer cost) and I buy some nice HP photo paper, and the prints are brilliant!
HP rocks!
I find out you can't refill the latest ink cartridges.
HP stinks.
I find out I have an old printer and I can refill my cartridges!
HP rocks!
I have an Epson 880. I get the black (knockoff) cartridges for approx $1.25 each and the color for $3.50. The printer prints at the 2400x1440dpi, the color quality is very high.
Just because the printer you selected is expensive to operate, don't knock the entire inkjet color market.
Sig Return: 204 No Content
" Every time I think I need to print something in color I price the carts and say "nevermind" "
I do the same thing. To take it further, I often opt to not print at all, and instead just scribble down what I want off the screen onto a post-it. If I didn't have a nag in the back of my mind about the cost of ink every time I hear my printer doing the hula, I would print a helluva lot more stuff out. So, in a way, having expensive ink makes me more environmentally friendly. (tongue in cheek)
To get back on topic, Dell and the low road, what exactly would you have them do? Despite people knowing about the money being made on the ink, the first theing they consider when buying a printer is the cost of the printer. Dell can't exactly reverse the trend of the existing market just because they now have their name on a printer. If Dell decided to do the "normal" thing... by charging enough to make a profit on the hardware, then selling the ink for the profit that it is worth, how would they get their printers into the market? People would look at the price of them and say... "um, no".
Have you ever seen what putting Diesel fuel in a gas car does? I am pretty sure that their warranty doesn't cover the printer if you refill the cart.
- a regular cartridge with no lockout chip ($129/$99/$35)
- a "use and return" cartridge with lockout chip ($99/$75/na).
I feel pretty certain that Dell wants to keep you as a cartridge customer, but they aren't locking you in. Oh, and only one of the four printers is an inkjet. The others are lasers. Even better, the inkjet does not include this technology. Bottom line: Dell is getting into the laser printer cartridge refilling business. No wonder the OP is complaining.Anyways the analogy is irrelevant, anybody can make gas and anybody can make printer cartriges.
Anybody who buys a printer with proprietary cartriges is a moron. They could double the price of those cartriges tomorrow, and whatcha gonna do about it?
I was using an Epson Photo Stylus 700 (or something like that), which could print amazing near-photo quality color prints on special paper. The black and white output was rather nice, too, on heavy paper (24# white, not the cheaper copier paper). But it was costing me a lot just to print - between the paper costs, and the ink (and because I hardly used it, it tended to dry out quickly) - it just wasn't worth it. As far as the photo printing was concerned - the number of times I truely used it: 0 (!!!). Not too long ago, it stopped printing - even when I put in a new cartridge. The last time it did this, I had to send it in for cleaning (thankfully it was still under warantee), and wait 3 weeks (actually, the time spent was pretty short, all considering). I made up my mind then I was going to get a nice laser printer, come hell or high water.
A little looking around, and I found that a used HP Laserjet 3 with a relatively low page count was going to cost me around $150.00 - if I was lucky I would get a toner cartridge, too. But I thought it would be worth it...
I ended up looking around town a bit, and happened upon a Laserjet 6p at a local used-computer store I frequent. I asked them how much - they said $100.00 (!!) - I hemmed and hawwed a little bit, and asked if they could power it up (I didn't want a lemon). They told me "No problem", pulled the toner cart out of their store printer (same model!), fired it up and did a self test - out came a beautiful black and white image! I asked about return/warantee - they said they would give me a week for in-store credit (in case the interface was FUBAR'ed). I couldn't pass it up, so I bought it, and took it home.
That week, I contacted a local printer cartrige/ribbon shop (any ribbon for any printer - literally!), and told them my situation: I didn't want to pay for a full cartridge, in case the printer didn't work (the cartrige was $70.00 for trade, $95.00 for new) - they accommodated me by letting me put down a deposit of $10.00 on a used returned cartridge, to try the printer out with. I took it home, popped it in, loaded paper, installed the drivers - and...Success!!! The printer worked beautifully - since it was for my wife, I stuck it on her machine (a 'doze box) - but eventually I am going to get a network printer buffer and hook it up to that, so I can print to it from my SuSE box.
I took the cartridge back, and even though I knew I could get refilled cartridges cheap online - I asked them about buying one of theirs - they told me that since they had a ton of returns for refills, and didn't need any more, that they would give me a trade in one for the $70.00 (so I essentially got a refilled/refurbed cart without needing the trade in) - I made sure to let them know that I could have gotten it cheaper online, but because they helped me out I decided to give them my business.
It has been a few months now, and the printer works great - I checked the page count on it, and it was around 25,000 page (damn near brand new as far as Laserjets go). It doesn't squeak or make other funky noises - it's only "problems" are one missing cover, and it needing a "special" right angle power cord. I also plan on dropping a few meg of buffer RAM into it (takes cheap 72 pin non-ecc SIMMs).
I figure I won't have to change the toner for a *very* long time, and I can now print on el-cheapo copier paper, instead of the heavier stuff (though I might keep using it - I like the heft and feel of it, and it really doesn't cost that much more per ream). I try to tell everyone I can that the best printer they can get is an older-model HP Laserjet, like most businesses use - it will be a great investment if they can find one with a low page count (the only other printer I like as much as the HP Laserjet are Genicom Line Printers running greenbar - fast, loud, and nearly maintenance free!)...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
I beg to differ. This attitude was right in 1994 maybe - that most people print a few pictures and then quit printing.
However, "many" if not "most" people today find themselves having to use their printer for much more than this.
For example, I'm a university student. I have to print not only papers and multiple drafts to take to class, but also many library catalogs offer journals in full-text online form now.
Between all the uses of my printer that are required, I use a ream of paper every month or so. Not many compared to even a small office.
When (like with a Lexmark I tossed into the trash) I can't even get 200 pages out of a cartridge, and am told that a replacement will cost $30 to $50, just for the black, and probably as much for the colour, that's just ridiculous. Would I pay $100 or $200 for a printer to have $10 or even $15 cartridges, rather than a $40 printer that costs that $30 to $50? Hell yeah. However, consumers are increasingly either not given the choice, or are not well informed. Most consumers who buy a new printer don't know to check the ink cost first. Or, worse, the printer with the features they need only comes with expensive ink.
Myself, I'm holding onto my Canon BJC-610. Recently, the refill cartridges I use have been discontinued, and I was able to buy 10 of each black and colour tanks (4 tanks total) for about $4 each on clearance. The name-brand Canon cart is $14 or so, which is still a bargain compared to most. However, I noticed my last trip to Circuit City that this printer is no longer listed in their ink catalog at all. Staples still has the ink, but I am getting the eerie feeling that Canon would rather not support an affordable ink supply anymore.
After that happens, I guess I'll just have to go feral in looking for ink supplies.
-- If it ain't broke - overclock it more.
Well, first off HPs suck. I don't know how they got the reputation that they were so good, but my experience has been they don't last. I've had 3 of them, including one I bought for a rather expensive $350 around 5 years ago. It stopped working after a year. The next HP bit it too.
So I bought a Lexmark Z51 - it did decent printouts and it still works. But the ink is quite expensive.
But Canon - I got an s800, and it prints out beautiful pictures. Then it stopped working after only a year! Damn. But it turned out my kid had stuffed a pencil in a rather delicate part of the printer's anotomy, and once a pencil-ectmy was performed, the printer was all better! Able to survive a hostile environment. Plus the ink is really cheap. So there you have it - cheap, durable, and excellent output. And no Carly.
No, I don't trust in god. He'll have to pay up front, like everybody else.
I'm surprised Dell does this. They don't have the infrastructure to have a relationship like this with the customer - and they won't be able to get stores to stock yet another set of ink cartridges(also, this wouldn't be consistent with Dell's way of operating). So how are customers (especially consumers) going to get their parts in a cheap[1] and timely manner?
[1](well, this is ink and thus a bit expensive... but fedex on single cartridges would make it that much worse)
Most people don't realize the Japanese word "Epson" translates in English to "Paper Jam".
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
And does Dell sell that on their webpage also?
It will be most interesting to see what Dell has to say when the chips get reverse-engineered, considering this is how Dell / Compaq etc. got their start back in the day (reverse engineering IBM BIOS)
Funny, people in my office still use the term 'IBM-Compatible' when talking about Intel based PCs. Are printers next?
Everyone will start to cheer when you put on your sailin' shoes.