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IBM Denies Charges of Unix Theft
ahooton writes "C|net is
reporting
that SCO has filed a lawsuit accusing IBM of theft of it's Unix intellectual property. SCO
alleges this occurred because IBM released portions
of the Unix system, owned by SCO, in to Linux." While the suit is nothing new, IBM's retort is. IBM asserts it is innocent of any charges of wrongdoing. Additionally, IBM is accusing SCO of trying to stifle Linux development through the use of the courts.
I know it's been said before, but...
SCO's real purpose behind this lawsuit is not to get money, but to publicize itself in hopes of finding a larger company to buy them.
SCO's business hasn't been so great lately, and...they're just a little desperate at this point.
I am just waiting for Microsoft to be sued for stealing other people's code.
SCO alleges this occurred because IBM released portions of the Unix system, owned by SCO, in to Linux.
I've understood that they've reimplemented some technology in Linux, but have they really just taken the existing pieces and put them into Linux? I doubt it.
Would someone care to shed some light on the subject?
.: Max Romantschuk
What I hope this means, is that IBM will once and for-all put an end to this SCO FUD. Who knows the true reason behind SCO's logic, but whatever it is, we dont need it ;)
Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
....LINUX DOSN'T SUCK!!
...it's "At Least SCO went after the big guys first."
There is no RIAA-suing-college-kids style lawsuit here. They went right after someone who could afford to defend themselves, instead of trashing say, SuSe and RedHat.
On the other hand, it's IBM, who probably even has a patent on human life for christ sakes. Therefore I doubt we'll be seeing much more of SCO, especially if this suit doesn't hold water.
CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
The good thing is that right now you can run linux on IBM's zSeries, AS/400, RISC6000,... all the way down to a PDA. It's no joke to say that there is alot of money about to be made... That's the real reasonb for this suit...
||| I still can't believe Parkay's not butter.
Here is another CNet article on what SCO Group Chief Executive Darl McBride thinks on this issue. From the article,
"We're finding...cases where there is line-by-line code in the Linux kernel that is matching up to our UnixWare code," McBride said in an interview
Interesting... eh?
getSexySig();
From a different CNet article about the lawsuit:
...:
"HP did a complete buyout of Unix licensing from SCO," HP spokesman Brian Garabedian said. "We have a perpetual license rather than per copy license for HP-UX...We don't believe we have any exposure to the SCO lawsuit."
Sun, too, bought out its Unix license, said John Loiacono, vice president of Sun's operating platforms group.
"We bought our Unix license out....We are unencumbered for all things," including Sun's version of Linux, he said.
And then in the linked article:
IBM did make one argument defending its use of Unix intellectual property, saying it has the "irrevocable, fully paid-up and perpetual right to use the 'proprietary software' that it is alleged to have misappropriated or misused."
It sounds like IBM believes that they have "bought out" its license as well. So
1) Did SCO mislead IBM (and possibly HP, Sun, etc) with these license buyouts?
2) Is SCO trying to make everyone forget about the license buyouts?
3) Does SCO consider the buyouts invalid for some reason?
The whole thing is just weird. SCO is done. Even if they win, no one will ever trust them again. They could produce an OS that whipped any commercial or OSS implementation, but no one would buy it. Had they attacked a smaller, but significant target first (Sun?) they might have had a chance at getting bought out. But with IBM, I don't think they will bother, they'll just crush SCO. They have unfathomable resources. IBM could even afford to lose the case. Sun couldn't.
the no
Has anyone else seen the comments McBride has been making lately? Here's some choice quotes from news.com.com.com.com's unbiased and uninflammatory article, "Code Red for open source?":
"We're finding...cases where there is line-by-line code in the Linux kernel that is matching up to our UnixWare code," McBride said in an interview.
Please note that he has refused to release examples of this.
In addition, he said, "We're finding code that looks likes it's been obfuscated to make it look like it wasn't UnixWare code--but it was."
Please note that he has also refused to release examples of this, too.
"The Linux community would have me publish it now, (so they can have it) laundered by the time we can get to a court hearing. That's not the way we're going to go."
Yeah, that's a great excuse to not actually give any evidence of the accusations you're making - tell people that 'the Linux community' will try and sanitize every existing copy of the source code to all the versions of the kernel containing this supposed SCO source - which, he says, has been in the kernel for 'several years'! Perhaps he missed the bit where his lawyers briefed him on the GPL and how it lets anybody have a copy of the source code - including SCO itself! Is he really suggesting that SCO lacks the ability to keep a copy of all currently extant versions of the Linux kernel to use as evidence? F'chrissakes, the md5 checksums of Linus's kernels are public knowledge - if anybody tried to 'sanitize' a particular version, it'd be ridiculously easy to prove that it'd been changed since its original release.
"This is not about 10 lines of code, it's about 20 years of extremely valuable intellectual property we're trying to protect...Am I supposed to lie down and not say anything about it?" McBride said. "There's a certain point here where you stand up for what's right and let the chips fall where they will."
Gotta love that last line... McBride wouldn't know "what's right" if it came up and bit his ass.
I can't even begin to express my disgust for a company that insults, intimidates and sues the very people who have made it possible for SCO to distribute their own version of Linux. Crawl away and disappear, McBride - you're a liar and you know it.
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Last I heard, IBM was asking SCO to state specifically what code they were alleging that IBM had used, and IBM had gotten no answer. Today's story still has IBM describing SCO's allegations as "unsupported." If the nice folks at SCO can't back up their claims, are they just betting that the effect of the news stories on their business ("no bad publicity") will be greater than the losses they'll take for filing a frivolous lawsuit? What am I missing here?
Think, write, think, edit, think...then post.
...McBride then stated "Clearly you can see places where IBM's source code adds two numbers together, in some instances the same two numers our software would be adding durring the same process. This is clearly infringment." McBride was scheduled to answer more questions after the laughter died down, but was apparently then unavailible for comment.
CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
You had to figure SCO's real motive was to get IBM to buy them in order to avoid the lawsuit.
I was really hoping that, rather than do this, IBM would sue SCO into oblivion. It's quite gratifying to see it actually happen.
Woo hoo!
Follow the adventures of the new wandering jews
If SCO brings in RIAA, half the lawsuit will have "copyright infringement violation" in it and the lawsuit will go in the quadrillions.
That there is the SCO reply saying that they have hired consultants and found major code duplications between UnixWare and Linux, although they will not release the information about what parts of code they are talking about that has been duplicated. Article also quotes SCO's Darl McBride:
"We feel very good about the evidence that is going to show up in court. We will be happy to show the evidence we have at the appropriate time in a court setting."
I hope they are bluffing, or IBM will just buy SCO out and be done with it.
We're finding...cases where there is line-by-line code in the Linux kernel that is matching up to our UnixWare code
And where's the proof SCO (or some programmer there) didn't use the GPLed code of Linux, and shove it into their own sorry excuse of an OS??? According to the GPL, they can do this all day long as long as they release their changes back. But who's to say, some young, enterprising programmer at SCO didn't get stuck with some piece of SCO kernel code he could not get working right, so he 'borrowed' some Linux code lines, tweaked them into place, and hoped no one would find out. You'd better be DAMN sure this isn't the case, McBride, or you'll lose your 20 years of IP crap by violating the GPL!! Wouldn't that just take the cake!! Think about that while you feel the icy water lap around your ankles as your ship slowly glides to a watery death.
For those who describe their systems as 'boxen', do you order multiple 'boxen' of corn flakes also?
With SCO being closed source, who is to say that SCO didn't steal Linux code and then claim the opposite?
How do you defend against ANY closed source project doing the same?
It would be a very scary tactic that could kill OSS.
If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. - James Madison
Maybe those Unix license buyouts will protect Sun and HP against SCO's lawyers, but if their versions of Linux can't be redistributed freely then the GPL require that Sun and HP not distribute them at all.
I found the code that matches up exactly, the top five matches are ( drum roll )
.cpp file! Linux developers will pay for this blatant violation of SCO's IP rights!
5) for ( int x=0;x lt 10;x++)
4) while ( x lt 10 ) {
3) #include stdio.h
2) #include math.h
1) int main( String args[] )
Number 1) shows up in every
Note: for some reason the board wigged out with greater than and less than signes, so I had to leave those out. lt = less than
I can't afford a sig!
Out of curiousity, has anyone ever considered the possibility of a group of people individually filing a claim in small claims court against a company that is doing something they don't like?
In this case, for example, what if we could mobilize a few thousand people who use Linux professionally to sue SCO for slander? Professionals who use Linux are risking their reputation on it; SCO saying that Linux uses stolen code reflects badly on the professional. If what SCO is saying is untrue, that's slander and is in fact causing damages, yes?
Now, here's the trick -- if 5000 professionals who are effected by this in the USA were to file claims in small claims court of say, $1000, then SCO would have to simultaneously defend 5000 cases, or risk losing $5 million in damages.
What kind of effect do you think that would have on a company of SCO's size? Catastrophic, I'd think. And what's nice is that since they're impuning our professional judgment without providing any truth, we should have a cause of action.
If this is doable, this could be a serious way for a large community such as the free software community to show extreme displeasure with companies that do stuff like this, and for it to really count.
Any lawyers or anyone with professional knowledge out there that can comment?
This is the most cheapest way to try to earn money. SCO can't stand up to themselves to come up with good product, so they found the most ugliest route to get money. Kudos SCO !
Ok - so you've unix' IP, so what ? What have you done with it. Hybernate and wait for unix to hatch by itself and pour money on you. Come on...
SCO's real purpose is not prove Linux' authenticity, its just a cheap trick to earn money( if they're going to get a dime ). Besides, I hope folks in M$ should be very happy tonight, laughing and feel as if they've got something for their bait...
Time will tell as who is the real beneficiary is... FUD over Linux at this point - I won't say is bad, because we don't know as how it spins out but it certainly will be a bump in this superfast drive.
No, because IBM has an SCO license. It's not illegal for another Linux vendor to sell Linux. It *is* a violation of contract for IBM (however unlikely) to use code from their licensed Unix and put it into Linux and attempt to GPL it.
May we never see th
IBM's gonna defend Linux. This was the only thing I was worried about, that IBM would cut a deal with SCO and leave linux users out in the cold. Now that IBM's going to defend itself (and by extention linux) SCO is pretty much done for. I'm really looking forward to that company going bankrupt after what they said about Redhat and Suse.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
"As somone who walked for SCO (or rather Caldera how it was called at that :)
:)
time) I can tell you this is utter crap. There were very people actually
doing Linux kernel work then (and when the German office was closed down
all those left the company) and we really had better things to do then
trying to retrofit UnixWare code into the linux kenrel. Especially given
that the kernel internals are so different that you'd need a big glue
layer to actually make it work and you can guess how that would be
ripped apart in a usual lkml review
It might be more interesting to look for stolen Linux code in Unixware,
I'd suggest with the support for a very well known Linux fileystem in
the Linux compat addon product for UnixWare.."
Could be intresting
Rus
Cheap UK and US VPS
Taken from paragraph 82 of the lawsuit filed by SCO against IBM.
Prior to IBM's involvement, Linux was the software equivalent of a bicycle. UNIX was the software equivalent of a luxury car. To make Linux of necessary quality for use by enterprise customers, it must be re-designed so that Linux also becomes the software equivalent of a luxury car. This re-design is not technologically feasible or even possible at the enterprise level without (1) a high degree of design coordination, (2) access to expensive and sophisticated design and testing equipment; (3) access to UNIX code, methods and concepts; (4) UNIX architectural experience; and (5) a very significant financial investment.
Somebody please explain to me how software is like a car/bicycle.
Further into the lawsuit you'll notice SCO isn't actually suing IBM for releasing their source but because they are losing business. With A-holes like McBride I can't imagine why. I just wish they'd hurry up and die.
paragraph 84
not 82
McBride's taking a dingy up against the battleship that is IBM. Can he honestly think that SCO won't be reduced to so much virtual matchwood? I'm just waiting for the moment when he's staring down IBM's big guns, and goes "Eep!".
Wait for it...
It sounds like they're going to suggest that someone in IBM leaked SCO's source code to a Linux developer and that developer submitted it to the kernel. That would explain why they're not releasing the portions of code in question -- in case that developer wipes all the evidence of having had the leaked code.
The evidence wouldn't be on lkml because it would have been private emails. Neither would it be in the various historical linux versions.
This what Apple did of Microsoft... Now lets see, take a sys V UNIX and linux console and place them side by side. Now type: uname touch SCO ls cat SCO > /dev/null
rm SCO
mmm, works the same...
If it quacks like a duck, it must be a duck !
I think they could win this hands down !
Now if I give up programming and take up corporate copyright law, I think I will be rich..
Rob.
"For Every Pleasure There's a Tax"
The Man
I like Christoph Hellwig's (ex-Caldera employee) comments on the Linux Kernel Mailing List 02 May 2003 06:44, in part:
"It might be more interesting to look for stolen Linux code in Unixware, I'd suggest with the support for a very well known Linux fileystem in the Linux compat addon product for UnixWare.."
Let's hope the FSF sue SCO for infringement of the GPL. For a billion dollars. I'm sure IBM lawyers would lend a helping hand! ;)
"Mary had a crypto key, she kept it in escrow, and everything that Mary said, the Feds were sure to know."
I'm pretty sure any lawyer that helped you with this would be charged with barratry, or for vexatious litigation.
:)
I'm not sure if individuals can be charged with something similar. You'd have to look it up.
Note that the charges you are laying can still have some merit, but doing them in an attempt to subdue the defence isn't legal.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
Just curious. It seems that all the comments revolve around how SCO is stupid and wrong and greedy and dumb and soon to be extinct.
What if they're not. What if they do have a genuine grievance. I'm not trying to be a troll or flamebait, just honestly curious. What impact would this have on GNU/Linux? Would people honor SCO's claims if they're proven right?
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"In an e-mail discussion that took place 24 and 25 April, SCO-Caldera Senior Vice President Chris Sontag told MozillaQuest Magazine that there is SCO-owned code in Red Hat and SuSE Linux distributions. He also told MozillaQuest Magazine that the tainted code is not in the Linux kernel that Linus [Torvalds] and others have helped develop. We're talking about what's on the periphery of the Linux kernel.
"Fighting terrorists with millitary might is like killing a mosquitor on your Dad's forehead with a rifle."
It is times like this when I wish that Stallman et. al and linus didn't mess with *NIX. Really it seems that if you touch *NIX at all you are just waiting for a court battle.
:)
Of course then "GNU's not Unix" wouldn't have such a ironic twist
ps. I love linux,bsd and really only use *NIX based systems, but it is really hard to find an organization that hasn't been sued over it's history with unix.
IANAL, but it seems to me that there must be a defensive line against the SCO suit in the mere fact that it has promulgated that policy. Of course the existence of the policy is no guarantee that it is going to be adhered to 100%, but in the (unlikely) event that SCO is able to establish that some illegal copying of their material did take place, the corporation can hold its hands up and ask what more it could have done to prevent it.
I'll sue your ass etc.
Make claims about source code, which as itself is unpatentable (are 'Caldera' suggesting they own the 'do while' loop?, due it's reusability and the fact that there are only so many ways to do things, and that any programmers will probably come up with the same thing from time to time on a totally independant basis.
Caldera's claim that their source has somehow ended up in the Kernel of various companies is debatable particularly the comments about 'obfuscated code' which is a way of saying that the code in question bares no resemablance to their code at all, other than it was written using the same programming language and perfoms a similar function.
It really is all about the money, Caldera had no involvement in the original creation of the Intellectual property and have no moral right to lecture the world on how sad it is when such property is debased, dressing up as Sco and pretending to be Sco won't change anything here.
I've no doubt the original angle was for a buyout but now we've got to the point where it is abundantly clear that IBM have no intention at all of buying them the game is up, and so Caldera/Sco will become a shell of a company file for Chap 11 and fire all it's staff, hire a few lawyers instead and float along with whatever cash they have left until they sink, then somebody will buy the Unix IP at a firesale price, hopefully they will cast it into the public domain lest it corrupt any other mortals.
Economic Left/Right: -0.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.69
Yeah, share and enjoy, we dont need your lawsuits!
Share and Enjoy
Share and Enjoy
Boot up your box
With our communist ploy
To run your machine
Free from emipres mean
And when it breaks down
And starts to complain
About panics on boot
Segfaults in your games
There's no disk space free
Missing initrd
There's a memory leak
CPU usage peaks
And the docs are just
Full of weird techie speak
And you've got to stop, for the good of your health!
We'll tell you, 'Learn C and fix it yourself'.
Ballmer actually said: "customers will never really know who stands behind this product."
The intent is similar, but it's a subtler shade of meaning here.
Of course, people pay Red Hat and IBM and other companies money to stand behind the code. And you DO know who wrote the code anyways. Their names are all over it.
My journal has hot
The GPL is not some Evil Overlord's World Destroying Superweapon. GPL violation is copyright violation. Even if there is some language in the GPL concerning penalties for violation, it is up to a judge to set the penalty. The judge has more options than "make them GPL the whole thing". He could restrain distribution altogether. The violator could be made to pay for an alternative license to the code he's using. He could even be made to pay damages and to reimplement the code in question. Like any copyright violation, the Court will want to put an end to it. There's more than one way for them to do it.
Incidentally, discretely replacing such code may not necessarily work. A whistleblower could whip out a tainted code tree. Your developers might screw up and leave debugging symbols in old binaries. It would not be hard to prove in court that a sanitized code tree did not create a binary in dispute. The court may well see a code tree as business records to which the rules of evidence apply. "So Mr. Project Co-Ordinator, where is the source code that produced the exhibit in question?"
Yeah, getting the GPL stuff out your code tree would be a good idea. There's no ironclad way to prove it was never there.
There is little chance that they can win this. IANAL, so I can't speak to the question of whether their claims have a chance in court. I could argue the point of whether they make sense, but I don't want to get involved in that.
However, IBM has the resources and the motivation to fight this. SCO's market cap is a whole lot less than IBM's investment in, and presumably revenue from, open source software. From a business perspective, it would make sense for IBM to buy SCO and release the patents to the open source community. If winning this fight would cost them more, they can do that. If winning it costs less, they can fight it and effectively disarm SCO.
I think within a short time what we are going to see is that open source software will effectively become very safe from lawsuits. The day is coming when it will be a safe bet to use open source because you will know that it has already survived these attacks.
The net will not be what we demand, but what we make it. Build it well.
jesus had his judas and now so does the open source community. the big question is, will the betrayal of SCO through the lawsuit be the catalyst for something big for open source? you must admit sco has unified the open source community against it, much in the same way microsoft had in the years before. only if we could use this unity to further our cause.
Why did I lurk so long before registering for a Slashdot account? I could have had a Slashdot ID of less than 100000.
Click here or here.
Ballmer actually said: customers will never really know who stands behind this product.
The EULA's that I've seen for most commercial software products (including Microsoft's) clearly state that they're not guaranteed to do anything, and are not guaranteed to not harm your system or you. It seems quite clear that the difference in this area between commercial OS/software releases and Open Source is that, with Open Source you never know who will stand behind the product, and with commercial software you will know that nobody stands behind the product.
At least with the former I have a chance that someone, somewhere will stand behind their product.
Buy the company, declare all its IP community property, fire every single employee, burn their buildings, loot their coffers, trample their crops and sew their fields with salt.
This is not my sandwich.