Suing Telemarketers Made Simple

Lord of the Distinctive Rings writes "Telemarketer calls victim in wee hours. Victim is lawyer. Victim sues telemarketer. Hilarity ensues, as recounted in narrative replete with links and information on how you too can sue up the wazoo." Well, one's certainly not ever going to get rich or anything going after telemarketers on a one-off basis, but every bit helps, I think.

Comments

I can't wait...

[stev3]

I can't wait for the National Do Not Call List to take effect.

HURRY UP!!

Re:I can't wait...

[Neophytus]

Previously covered when it was signed into law on March 11.

Re:I can't wait...

[ccnull]

Just a reminder: Californians can pre-register for the Do Not Call list at http://caag.state.ca.us/donotcall/ (effective October 2003). Other states can simple Google "statename do not call" for the relevant linkage. YMMV.

Keep em on the phone.

[amembrane]

I've had friends who have had to do this to make ends meet. The key to this business is speed, so if you really want to make it ineffective, keep them on the phone as long as possible. Doesn't matter to me, I haven't had a land line since the last millenium. =P

Re:Keep em on the phone.

[Kierthos]

Hrm... unsolicited telephone calls using an automated voice that doesn't clearly identify the business or person?

Shit... I should have stayed on the line those last 12 time whoever the prerecorded hell it was called and tried to offer me a Disney vacation... I could have afforded to go by now...

Kierthos

Re:Keep em on the phone.

[L1Trauma]

Your strategy for dealing with the intrusive and obnoxious is to listen longer? More power to you, buddy. Also, see earlier /. Cell-e-marketers are on the way.

Re:Keep em on the phone.

[Erasmus Darwin]

I once did this with an automated recording. I discovered by chance that hitting '7' on my phone caused the recording to start over, so I spent a bored afternoon hitting 7 and tying up their system for a little over an hour. I was watching TV at the time, so pressing a button on the phone every minute or two wasn't that much of an inconvenience.

Re:Keep em on the phone.

[hipster_doofus]

Whenever a telemarketer calls me, I always keep them on the phone and use this fun script against them! It's generally a great time for me and everyone in my vicinity.

Re:Keep em on the phone.

[shachart]

Ohhhh.... This is soooo much more than just keeping one of them busy. In fact, you screw up their ENTIRE operation, even if they have 100's of telemarketers. Why? Explanation below:

In order to raise the productivity of their employees, they save them the time dialing, recognizing answering machine, ringing-and-ringing, busy signals, tone waiting etc.

How? The use these machines which are called predictive dialers. Why predictive, you ask? because they predict when the next agent will end her call, and based upon lots of parameters (call duration, busy signal rate by time of day, time to recognize voicemails etc.) - will place a call BEFORE that agent hangs up, so the moment she hangs up - she has the next call ready for her, with an actual person on the line.

Now, it is rather clear that if you hold just one agent on the line for a LONG time, then you screw every statistics the predictive dialer has, and so the agents lose sync with the dialer, and as a result - their productivity dives....

Which is what we wanted.

Re:Keep em on the phone.

[PhipleTroenix]

While you're keeping them on the phone, try to talk them into another career.

For "charities" (police benevolence society or whatever), ask them how much goes to the "cause", and how much is used for admin and overhead. They'll offer an 800 number, try to get THEM to call the number. I try to convice them they are working for crooks. Quote GWB's "you're either on the side of good, or the side of evil".

I don't know if it does any good, but it always makes me feel better.

Re:Keep em on the phone.

[jsupreston]

I tied up a telemarketer one time for about 10 minutes when they called during supper. I have a high pitched voice for a man, so when they asked for "Mr. L," I handed the phone to my 1 1/2 year old son who was just learning to talk. My wife and I nearly wet our pants watching our son talk on the phone to this telemarkter. Needless to say, we had a very entertaining dinner.

Re:Keep em on the phone.

[realdpk]

If it has 1 line, certainly. If it has 4 or so like the author states, you'd probably have to coordinate the "defensive attack" Operation Telephony Freedom.

Re:Keep em on the phone.

[chrysrobyn]

That reminds me of the time my parent's answering machine got into an infinite loop with an autodialler. Somehow, the answering machine beep caused the spiel to restart and that spiel ended with a beep. That beep, I guess, was misinterpreted as an attempt to access the remote "check my messages" feature of the answering machine. The password failure resulted in the same beep. Which, if you see above, caused the spiel to restart -- and end with a beep.

The 60 minute tape was filled with the same spiel 60 times in a row with two beeps to seperate.

Re:Keep em on the phone.

[tekunokurato]

It's absolutely true- I interned at a credit card company last summer running the dialer program. It's like being an air traffic controller- everything runs smoothly as long as the calls are predictable, but the dialer algorithms run really poorly and inconsistently when calls go on for long periods of time.

It's not just while the call is goin, either- the dialer uses that call as part of its statistics for the entire calling job, so for several hours it's running on poor data.

It was a fun couple of summers (I never did outward calling, but I took inward, angry, card-cancellation calls the first summer I worked there), but I'll never do that again!

Re:Keep em on the phone.

[SomeoneGotMyNick]

Instead of hanging on a long time, could it screw everything up by keeping the conversation too short?

For example, when you recognize the automated message, just hold down a number key for about a minute. If they hadn't answered after a minute, keep it on another minute. When they answer to the high volume tone, they'll hang up immediately, thus making the call TOO short.

Now, the autodialer should start making the next calls too soon and have people hang up while waiting. That should help screw things up, plus annoy the calling party

Re:Keep em on the phone.

[MarkGriz]

Yes, but isn't the point of their calls to eventually find some idiot who is actually interested in their product/service? Presumably, that call will last much longer than the standard "Not interested, FOAD! *click*". So, when they get a "live one" to place an order, that messes up the predictive dialer? That makes no sense.

Perhaps there is a way to signal the dialer when they get a sucker on the line, so as not to mess up the stats?

Re:Keep em on the phone.

[Blue Stone]

No No No....

What you do, if the caller is real, anyway, is say, "Just a sec'... I'm just going to get a pen..." put the phone down (without hanging up) and... well... go back to watching the tv/scratching your balls or whatever.

>:o)

Re:Keep em on the phone.

[sehryan]

That's a little incorrect.

The dialer is dialing a certain number of calls based upon how quickly the agents are coming available. If you keep an agent on the phone for longer than a few seconds, the dialer recognizes this and drops them from the number of agents that will be available.

After all, they are trying to sell you something. The dialer has to be able to compensate for long calls, because I doubt any agent can sell you something in the time it takes someone else to hang up.

And just so you know I am not talking out of my ass, I used to be an admin on a dialer, so I do have some experience with this.

Re:Keep em on the phone.

[coke_dite]

Unlisted phone numbers mean nothing. Some companies print out large sheets that start with just the exchange and the first digit of the rest of the phone number, and work their way up by hundreds from there (for example, the TM's first sheet of the evening would start with 555-1000 and work its way up to 555-1099, second sheet would start with 555-1100 and wor its way up to 555-1199) That way, regardless of whether the number is out of service, a business, or even unlisted, the TM will get through. Sad to say, but that's how some of the smaller companies do it.

Some other small companies just rip pages out of a phone book, distribute photocopies of the pages to their staff, and their "DO NOT CALL" list consists of a black line through that name and number on the phone book page.

Only larger companies which contract out to several clients use automated dialers... Our local newspaper's contracter has four large ADs with twenty lines each, and then in the back, they have a room for manual dialers who handle rural accounts.

Of course, here in Canada, use of AD's is not as common as in the US. You can't just pick one up at the corner store. I'm not sure if it's regulated, but the larger telemarketing companies are VERY careful to follow the rules (Do Not Call lists are updated daily, no calling before 9am or after 9pm, no calling on Sundays, etc.)

It's a sad business tho - most of the employees quit after a month or two - they can't take the constant rejection. It takes a very special breed of person to stay in telemarketing over the long term. Hopefully that breed will become extinct soon :)

Sweet.

[Anonymous Coward]

Another reason for me to sit by the phone on a saturday night. I mean..... to bad I'll be out hanging with the ladies.

Ring....Please Ring..

Finally?

[jonjohnson]

It's about time people do something. Let me recall two funny incidents: Brother in-law: "Yes, Oh? I get something free? What's that? Oh that sounds great... What else can you guys offer me?"... (Ten minutes later)... "Well, can I talk to your supervisor? Thank you. .... Yes, I hear you have some great offers, but you see, Colorado has a no-call list and if you don't honor that ..." The hilarity of the situation was the fact that i'm sure they thought they had another sale, then it turns into another 20 minute lecture. The best transaction was from my stepfather, while my friends and I were watching a movie in the living room. "Hello? Umm... let me check. IS MR. HIND-ER-LITER HERE (pronounced incorrectly of course)?" (In another yelling voice, somewhat feminized this time, he replies to himself) "NO, HE'S NOT BACK FROM HIS PAROLE MEETING FOR KILLING THAT SALESMAN." (back to his voice) "OH, THAT'S RIGHT. No, I'm sorry, he can't come to the phone right now. Bye." Makes me wonder how much of these funny things do go on...

Re:Finally?

[CDS]

My grandmother used to get a persistant telemarketer who kept calling and asked for the man of the house. My grandfather was a rancher and was never in the house during the day, so my grandmother would always say he isn't in...

Finally one rainy day my grandpa WAS in the house and happened to answer the phone.

"Is the man of the house in?"
"This is..."
<telemarketer begins sales pitch>
"I'm sorry, my wife makes all the financial decisions" <CLICK>

Re:Finally?

[doktor-hladnjak]

I think the favorite one I've heard lately is what a friend of mine does:

telemarketer: Can I speak to Mrs. Jones please?
her: There's a Mrs. Jones!!! He never told me he was married!

She says the telemarkets always promptly hang up without saying anything.

This is cool

[rf0]

This gives a nice HOWTO on suing people who abuse the system. Here in the UK there is a opt-out system in the form of the TPS (Telecomunication Protection System) to stop people doing this sort of thing. Failure to comply get at £10,000 fine. Haven't had one call since signing up :)

Rus

Yes! YES!!!!

[Shoten]

I, like the person who wrote the article, live in DC, and have been bothered by a pre-recorded telemarketer...in this case, a "non profit" that seems not to exist except as a front to accept donations. I'd elaborate more, but I'm off to the courthouse now...:)

Andy Rooney sez...

[TheArmageddonMan]

Three Little Words That Work !! (1)The three little words are: "Hold On, Please..." Saying this, while putting down your phone and walking off (instead of hanging-up immediately) would make each telemarketing call so much more time-consuming that boiler room sales would grind to a halt. Then when you eventually hear the phone company's "beep-beep-beep" tone, you know it's time to go back and hang up your handset, which has efficiently completed its task. These three little words will help eliminate telephone soliciting. (2) Do you ever get those annoying phone calls with no one on the other end? This is a telemarketing technique where a machine makes phone calls and records the time of day when a person answers the phone. This technique is used to determine the best time of day for a "real" sales person to call back and get someone at home. What you can do after answering, if you notice there is no one there, is to immediately start hitting your # button on the phone, 6 or 7 times, as quickly as possible. This confuses the machine that dialed the call and it kicks your number out of their system. Since doing this, my phone calls have decreased dramatically. (3) Another Good Idea: When you get "ads" enclosed with your phone or utility bill, return these "ads" with your payment. Let the sending companies throw their own junk mail away. When you get those "pre-approved" letters in the mail for everything from credit cards to 2nd mortgages and similar type junk, do not throw away the return envelope. Most of these come with postage-paid return envelopes, right? It costs them more than the regular 37cents postage "IF" and when they receive them back. It costs them nothing if you throw them away! The postage was around 50 cents before! the last increase and it is according to the weight. In that case, why not get rid of some of your other junk mail and put it in these cool little, postage-paid return envelopes. One of Andy Rooney's (60 minutes) ideas. Send an ad for your local chimney cleaner to American Express. Send a pizza coupon to Citibank. If you didn't get anything else that day, then just send them their blank application back! If you want to remain anonymous, just make sure your name isn't on anything you send them. You can even send the envelope back empty if you want to just to keep them guessing! Eventually, the banks and credit card companies will begin getting their own junk back in the mail. Let's let them know what it's like to get lots of junk mail, and best of all they're paying for it...Twice! Let's help keep our postal service busy since they are saying that e-mail is cutting into their business profits, and that's why they need to increase postage costs again. You get the idea ! If enough people follow these tips, it will work---- I have been doing this for years, and I get very little junk mail anymore.

Re:Andy Rooney sez...

[ergonal]

If you want to remain anonymous, just make sure your name isn't on anything you send them.

I don't know how the system works where you live, but here a lot of "Reply Paid" stuff is barcoded and they could (theoretically) find out who you are by scanning that barcode.

Re:Andy Rooney sez...

[TheArmageddonMan]

Good point! Not a prob for me, though. I like to think they tear up the junk apon getting it back and scream my name, like in Wrath of Khan. Good point, still.

Re:Andy Rooney sez...

[tmark]

"Hold On, Please..." Saying this, while putting down your phone and walking off (instead of hanging-up immediately)

Actually, the *people* (as opposed to the companies) who make the telemarketing calls often *love* when people do this. It gets their talk time up; it shows their superiors that they're can keep someone on the phone for a long time, presumably talking about their product. I'd even bet the telemarketing companies (assuming they're hired by whoever is selling the product) like it too. The only party who doesn't like this is the company paying for telemarketing, but the telemarketers themselves often love it.

Re:Andy Rooney sez...

[LotusNailo]

Maybe so but talk time is up while sales are down. I don't think the company likes that very much.

Re:Andy Rooney sez...

[Schnapple]

start hitting your # button on the phone, 6 or 7 times, as quickly as possible. This confuses the machine that dialed the call and it kicks your number out of their system

This sounds a lot like the TeleZapper, the $30 brick that plays the little "doo-dah-dee" sound that means the line is disconnected. Of course, from what I've heard, the telemarketing computer systems are getting wise to this sort of thing and before long (if not already) the TeleZapper will be useless. As a result, I can't help but think this technique Rooney mentioned is obselete already.

More specifically, my information says that when you don't hear anyone on the other line what has happened is that the system they use which automatically calls people based on the average call time of their employees, has misestimated when to call (or all the employees are unavailable), so there's a silent pause. If the pause is long enough, the computer simply hangs up. Consequently, anyone who calls me from an unlisted number and gives me silence for three seconds or so I hang up on. If it's someone important, they'll call right back.

Re:Andy Rooney sez...

[TomorrowPlusX]

Well, you know, I've got nothing against the *person* calling me. I feel sorry for the schmuck. If by saying "hold on..." I can give the poor sob 10 minutes of peace in an otherwise completely hectic day of sullen, angry and/or sarcastic phonecalls then *GREAT*.

The important part is that if enough people do this stuff, the real culprit -- the companies PAYING for the advertising service -- will stop because it ceases to be profitable.

Telemarketing wouldn't happen if it didn't make money. We shouldn't punish those calling us but those paying them to call us.

Re:Andy Rooney sez...

[stilwebm]

With the U.S. Postal service, this would be returned to the sender. If no return address is on the envelope, the mail would be held and a notice sent to the recipient saying "You have received underpaid mail. Pay $0.37 and we'll give you the mail, or will keep it. Efforts to return the mail were unsuccessful."

With other prepaid mail, senders usually prepay base on the number of responses they expect to get back. When the balence reaches zero, the mail gets withheld until they pay for the remaining. Unfortunately for the recpient, the notices of reply mail being withheld sometimes take several months to arrive and be processed.

Re:Andy Rooney sez...

[christopherfinke]

Actually, the *people* (as opposed to the companies) who make the telemarketing calls often *love* when people do this.

I worked as a telemarketer for a fairly large newspaper in southern Wisconsin during high school, and yes, I did love it when people would set the phone down and leave. It gave me more time to do my crossword puzzle, and I didn't even have to try selling a thirteen week subscription at our new low, low rate. Strangely enough, with this nose-to-the-grindstone work ethic, I was "let go" after about a month...

But seriously, telemarketers get paid a base rate per hour ($7.00 in my case), plus an hourly bonus based on how many sales he/she made. For example, if you made three sales in the 4pm-5pm hour, you would make $9.00 in that hour. If you consistently made six sales an hour, you would be making about $12.00 an hour. In my case, I wasn't bothered by people putting me on hold because I was still making over minimum wage, but without the hassle. I imagine people who do this full time wouldn't be pleased when people, such as me, play stupid games to keep them on the phone. I've been on the other side of the games, so I feel it's my duty to return the favor.

Re:Andy Rooney sez...

[ebh]

You can even send the envelope back empty if you want to just to keep them guessing!

If you really want to keep them guessing, throw in a pinch of cornstarch.

Re:Andy Rooney sez...

[aws910]

Last week, I mailed one of theose postage paid envelopes back to the people and did this: I took one square of toilet paper, dipped my finger in a jar of nutella(yummy brown chocolate peanut-butter stuff) and wiped my finger on the square of toilet paper. Stuffed it into the postage-paid envelope and sent their tasty little pacgake off to them! In case you didn't get it, I mailed what appeared to be used toilet paper. Still makes me laugh to this day.

Re:Andy Rooney sez...

[Guppy06]

" but here a lot of "Reply Paid" stuff is barcoded and they could (theoretically) find out who you are by scanning that barcode."

The barcode you refer to (a long one just above the delivery address or in the bottom right-hand corner, right?) is simply their mailing address in barcode format. It's to speed up the delivery process somewhat.

Re:Andy Rooney sez...

[Elvisisdead]

Just like saying b-o-m-b in the airport. Please don't do this. It's one thing to send back ads in the envelope. It's entirely another to force the building to be evacuated and put people through the distress caused by thinking that they may have been exposed to a potentially deadly virus. I know. My girlfriend was in the Hart Senate Office Building when it was evacuated due to Anthrax.

How to identify 'Out of Area' on called id?

[Anonymous Coward]

I get like 2 of these calls a week, none of which announce the business name, some of which arrive after 9 p.m. However, these scumbag telemarketers have their numbers show up as 'Out of Area' on my caller id. How do you identify the offending company then?

Re:How to identify 'Out of Area' on called id?

[Zigg]

You can't, but the telco can. Unfortunately, they don't seem to be required to give you that information. At one point, before I started insisting on DNCs and saw the dropoff, I actually opened a case with the cops and had traces on my line -- of course, I got a form letter from the telco saying they couldn't "find enough information to generate a complaint". BS.

Re:How to identify 'Out of Area' on called id?

[Sounder40]

Absolutely, positively, answer these calls! Talk nicely to the poor dweeb on the other end of the line, and find out the name of the company. Politely refuse the offer. Then report them to the Federal Trade Commision (assuming you're in the states.) It is illegal. This will not necesarily produce an actionable case, but if you and your fellow pissed-off citizens do it enough, then they will get swatted.

ARS?

[arvindn]

Anywho gave me the caller's name - I'll call him "ARS"

Did you leave out the 'E' at the end?

I know telemarketers suck, but...

[Mononoke]

This sounds like some poor schmo who was sold an autodialer and forced his (now unemployed) secretary to program it. Sucks that the lawyer had to go after a legit business owner that actually works hard for that $500.

Too bad he couldn't just extort the name of the phone number list seller out of the guy, and go after "the dealer."

Re:I know telemarketers suck, but...

[nuggz]

Yes he is likely a legit business owner.
But he did at least 2 things wrong.

#1 He is calling people in the middle of the night, this is not acceptable.

#2 He didn't identify himself when he called, this is also a violation.

Both of these are wrong, you take away #1, and you're left with #2, which at the very least meant that he didn't properly look into what he was doing.

Also I hate telemarketers, and door to door soliciters, I just tell them no I won't support their cause because I hate people calling/coming to my door.

Re:I know telemarketers suck, but...

[squiggleslash]

#3 PROFI... Sorry, I mean he considered telemarketing a legitimate activity to begin with.

Telemarketing is the perfect example of "Just because it's legal doesn't make it alright". Why we go after pot smokers but consider telemarketers off-limits is a question that's yet to be answered.

Just kill your local land line.

[disc-chord]

At this point most people use their cell for everything. Especially with the competing providers offering more and more free minutes, you may actually find it's a lot cheaper to go cell only. I'm personally saving $15 a month.

But here's the sweet bit... You never get telemarketed at! (Obviously you shouldn't be doing stupid stuff like giving it out to businesses.) And you don't have to worry about annoying late-night calls, as most providers give you free voice mail, so you can just turn off the phone or put it in silent mode.

Re:Just kill your local land line.

[Schnapple]

You never get telemarketed at!

Care to share the secret with us? My wife and I both changed our cell phone numbers recently and within days we were recieving telemarketing calls. I had mine for less than a day or so and I got an automated computer voice trying to sell me a way to avoid calls like this in the future!

Of course in my case it may have been different - I got a call from someone trying to track down someone else, so I probably had someone's old phone number, but I can't explain my wife's as anything but "let's dial all the phone numbers and see who picks up!"

Re:Just kill your local land line.

[SnowDog_2112]

This might not be an attractive option for some people. For example, dialing 911 from a cell phone doesn't always do what you'd expect. In many areas, it connects you to the state police, or even the highway patrol (the assumption being that you're probably on the road, I guess).

Likewise, dialing 911 from a landline and leaving the phone off the hook will usually result in somebody coming to investigate, as they can figure out where you are. Not always so with a cell phone.

In a medical emergency, those minor differences could turn into life-or-death differences. Some folks just aren't willing to take that risk.

We're not quite at the point where the majority of people are comfortable with losing their normal phone service. In my home, for example, I get lousy reception on my mobile phone -- if I'm talking on the mobile phone, I'm usually confined to finding the "right spot" in the house and not moving much. Even then, the difference in quality is clear (no pun intended).

Re:Just kill your local land line.

[SuperQ]

as far as I know, it's illegal for telemarketers in the US to call cell phones. This is because it is the person reciving the calls that pays for the call.

I have only recived one telemarketing call on my cell phone over the last 2 years i've had it. and that was AT&T Broadband (who i use for cable modem, and cable TV) who has the number listed as contact for my current service. They were trying to sell me an upgrade to digital cable. I said, "This is a cell phone, it is illegal to call cell phones, I am going to report this to the PUC".

"Oh, sorry" *CLICK*

Havn't had a problem since :)

Re:Just kill your local land line.

[Jarnis]

Umm. And this is the great U S of A? I knew you were in the Mobile Phone Stone Age, but having also a broken emergency call system regarding mobile phones?

Oh my.

In Finland, when calling to 112 (our version of 911) the call is routed to closest center based on the link station your phone is using. Naturally if you cannot then speak anything to the phone, they may not take the step to find you based on cellphone location data (there are sadly too many misdials from pocketed phones with no keypad lock on), but if you can speak out a plea for help, they have system in place to get the (rough) location of the mobile phone and police/ambulance will be searching for you. If you can speak out an address or general idea where you are and what kinda emergency you have, the closest police/firestation/ambulance station gets alerted no matter where it is. Considering that you are not tied to a landline when placing the call, this is obiviously superior to placing the call from a landline which may or may not be next to you when you have the emergency.

Of course Finland is a lot smaller place than USA, but one would imagine that such basic things would be in order in any civilized country.

Ah, but there is little money to be made with such system. There is little to no corporate lobbying to get the system fixed, and nothing proceeds in the US without corporate interests paying the lawmakers off first... your great system at work...

Oh and 'lousy reception'.. dunno bout USA, but in Finland you have to be pretty far in the woods, many kilometers from nearest road or house, and next to a blocking hill or something to end up in a place where one of the two national major carriers doesn't have GSM signal up. Only places where GSM may not be suitable as only communications tool is outer islands on the coast (there ya can end up outside reception range or get randomly switched between finnish and estonian/swedish carriers depending on which cell is closer) and some rather remote wilderness in northern finland, where nobody lives anyway. And even there the old analog NMT system works (or it at least used to work - I think they are about to discontinue it as nobody is using it anymore...)

Also don't know about US systems, but using GSM you can always make an emergency call if there is any kind of network signal up. Even without a SIM card, and even using otherwise blocked phone. Emergency number Always Works - assuming of course that you have power in the phone and any kind of network is in the area.

Re:Just kill your local land line.

[DiveX]

You were wrong. It is not illegal to place calls to a cellular phone when you use that number as a contact method. Since you provided your number to the company for the knowing purpose of having them use that method to contact you, then you have provided prior express permission. I use my cell number for Columbia House memberships because, and they have contacted me. On the first call, I simply said I wasn't interested and hung up. My fault, I know, since I did not asked to be placed on the Do-Not-Call list...I was in a hurry. The second call I got was a few days later, same pitch. I then asked to be placed on the DNC list and a copy of the company's policy (as required by the TCPA). A few days later, I got a call at 9:03PM. I again damanded placement on the DNC list. The thing is, next time they call me, I will sue them in court for multiple violations, including the call past the allowed time..easy to prove by my cell bill. Remember, you may terminate a business relationship for the purposes of telemarketing, yet still do business with them. They may, of course, contact you in regards to your account (e.g. bill adjustments, debt collection [within bounds as allowed by other laws], etc) but not to try to sell more services.

The problem of thinking you know the law and getting it completely worng is worse than not knowing the law exists at all.

There is always a work around

[kjfitz]

Spamming already exists on the gray fringes of legality/ethicality (is that a word?) I can't imagine that charging a penny a letter would slow down a dedicated spammer at all. They'd simply send them without paying and continue to spoof / hide / relocate as required.

This, like many laws aimed at criminals, would make things marginally more inconvenient for honest people while ignoring the criminals.

Still get calls?

[g(zerofunk.org)]

I was having a problem with calls at all hours of the day. I finally added the 'disconnected' tones to the first part of my answering machine message, which you can find from a google.com search, and since then I get maybe 2 calls a week rather then the 10 a day I used to get.
For anyone who wants to cut down on calls, without trying the approach of using the courts, I would higly suggest this method.
g

Devil's Advocate

[Alan Livingston]

Ok... This might be a bit trollish, but...

Someone needs to explain to me why "hilarity ensues" when an attorney sues a telemarketer, but it doesn't ensue when an attorney sends a cease and desist order?

Shouldn't the attorney have just called this poor landscaper up and asked him to stop making calls first?

Re:Devil's Advocate

[doublem]

Two reasons:

1. /. stole the phrase from fark.com, who puts in on just about every other article.

2. It's "funny" when someone you hate suffers. For example: If Bill Gates was diagnosed with a terminal cancer, the /. crowd would LOVE it. If Torvalds came down with the same cancer, it would be the biggest tragedy in geek history.

It would be a geek tragedy.

Must've been an AT-5000

[horati0]

"Greetings friend. Do you wish to look as happy as me? Well, you've got the power inside you right now. So use it. And send one dollar to Happy Dude, 742 Evergreen Terrace, Springfield. Don't delay! Eternal happiness is just a dollar away."

Re:Must've been an AT-5000

[marcop]

Hmmm, eternal happiness for a dollar, you say? I think I would be much happier with the dollar.

The best way to get rid of telemarketers.

[Anonymous Coward]

Back in college, we were on the A-list for credit card bills. Hardly a day would go by when I wouldn't get a fat envelope of "You've Been Pre-Approved" nonsense, or a phone call at around 7 in the evening. Anyway, eventually, a simple "I'm not interested" *click* wouldn't do. So, we got creative, and decided to have some fun.

Eventually, one of my roomates, Matt, discovered the best solution. Once, a telemarketer called, and asked, "Are you Matthew *****"? His reply: "I don't know". Yes, that's right. "I don't know". As in, "I don't even know my own name, I'm definitely not responsible enough to own my own credit card. You must have dialed into a Home by mistake. Try this number again and Big Nurse will open up a can of tele-whoopass on you". Needless to say, he wasn't bothered for another three months. Before that, it was about twice a week. And that, my fellow readers, is how to get rid of telemarketers.

Re:The best way to get rid of telemarketers.

[mr3038]

Other nice ways to handle telemarketers:

• Pretend to be the slowest talking person in the world...
• Say "beep" each time the telemarketer says some often repeated word (like "the"). If the telemarketer asks you what's going on, say "nothing, why?" (Variation: say "me" every time the telemarketer says "you")
• If they want to loan you money, tell them you just filed for bankruptcy and you could sure use some money.
• Reply with a real husky voice: "What are you wearing?"
• Say "Could you repeat that?" Repeat.
• "I'm sorry, but I consider insurance a form of gambling, and my religion forbids it."
• "Newspaper? Is this a crude joke?? I'm blind!"

You'll be on their black list in no time.

Re:The best way to get rid of telemarketers.

[mengel]

Don't forget:

• Have you accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour?

Re:The best way to get rid of telemarketers.

[icebattle]

i give the phone to my three year-old. he can talk the hind leg off a donkey.

Re:The best way to get rid of telemarketers.

[bpfinn]

Don't forget: "Have you accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour?"

I heard this backfired on someone once. The telemarketer was excited to find another Christian and the callee got into a 10 minute conversation about religion.

every drop helps

[John_Renne]

Allthough an individual might not get rich out of these practices, the power of the mass counts. By sharing this information with the rest of the world more people can sue. Maybe $500 won't hurt the telemarketeer but I bet 1 million people all suing for the $500 will...

Re:every drop helps

[tmark]

Maybe $500 won't hurt the telemarketeer but I bet 1 million people all suing for the $500 will...

And how much will 1 million x (costs of conducting a trial) hurt our legal system ? Are there even 1 million lawsuits filed in the entire U.S. each year ?

Re:Australia

[Hellraisr]

We have the same thing here in Canada. We rarely get telemarketing calls.. probably once or twice a month. I have heard that in some parts of the USA, a person can potentially get up to 9 calls per day from telemarketers.

That's just crazy.. But of course, they wouldn't be doing it if they didn't make money off of it, so the best solution is to have no-one ever buy anything over the phone from a telemarketer. This would be the same reason that spam is still going strong. Enough people actually buy the crap to support their continued spamming.

I guess I missed it...

[mr.nobody]

Exactly where was the "hilarity?" This is just a short article on how he tracked down the guy with some simple online tools and then sued him under a law he was familiar with. There isn't even any wackiness or insanity here. It's just, well, kinda boring.

Business Owner Too Dumb to Deserve $500

[nounderscores]

I don't know about getting the list. With an autodialer, the list might be simply "The Telephone Directory." After all, simply stomping through the numbers is a lot cheaper than buying a fully qualified list of customers. Some legit direct mail companies pay in excess of one or two million dollars for a list of a thousand names. (Eg, 1000 Rich professionals who have just gotten married. 1000 Rich professionals who have just bought a house etc...)

A landscaper who is too clueless to know that an autodialer is illegal in his area would probably NOT be able to afford a list.

I say sue the telemarketer. That way you have low court costs and better chance of winning.

Re:Keep em on the phone - good idea!

[PHPee]

Keeping them on the phone is a good idea!

While reading these comments (at 9:15am), I got a call from an obvious telemarketer (couldn't pronounce my dad's name right...) so I decided to keep them on the phone, just to see how long they would actually wait (I'm unemployed, and living at home, so I've got nothing but time on my hands). I told her to hold on while I got my dad, and proceeded to just sit there listening. I didn't say another word for the entire 13 minutes and 42 seconds that the telemarketer actually waited for me to come back! I almost burst out laughing several times when I heard her sigh or start humming a little tune.

It brought a smile to my face on an otherwise boring, unemployed day of my life...

Only if the telemarketer is stupid..

[MikeFM]

I am pretty sure that many - if not most- small claims judgements are never paid off. It's usually recommended that you not even bother if you're going to need to pay for a lawyer or collection agency. It might be worth $20 if you could spare it - just to hassle the telemarketing folks, but I certainly wouldn't count on a pay off of even $500. Sure you'd probably win your judgement but would they ever actually pay you?

Re:Only if the telemarketer is stupid..

[TeddyR]

Ah... but a judgement in court (even small claims court) goes on the persons credit history... (and stays there even after it is paid) and a few unpaid judements dont look good at all when trying to apply for credit....

Useful resources for suing telemarketers.

[Seth Finklestein]

As a crusader for freedom on the internet, I believe strongly that unwanted calls are an avoidable nuisance. To help my fellow freedom fighters, I offer these links:

Suing Telemarketers without those sneaky lawyers taking your money!
Suing Telemarketers by Ben Livingston - they say he's crazy, but I say he's a hero!
Remove.org - you can add yourself to the global do not contact list to opt out of all advertisements!
SueTelemarketers.com - because they take away minutes of my free time when I'm trying to eat food, I invest hours of my free time trying to track down and sue telemarketers one by one.

That's all. Good night, and good luck!

Does the fine seem a little high

[91degrees]

I mean, sure $500 is a reasonable amount for a single violation. Most businesses could afford that. But if a lot of people decide to sue, then it strikes me that this would be like the RIAA's recent claim of the GDP of several countries.

This is irritating, but do we really thin kthe crime is bad enough to charge an individual a potential $5 000 000 (assuming 10 000 irate victims)?

Re:Does the fine seem a little high

[cloak42]

That's the idea. If the fine adds up to a large amount when lots of people do it, it then acts as a deterrent. That's kind of the whole idea of fines. If it becomes dangerous for a business to keep paying fines of $500, then they need to stop their illegal behavior. It's that simple.

Whatever ,troll

[mekkab]

I live in Rockville, and I constantly get calls from that handyman service.

Guess who I DON'T call when I need my gutters cleaned?!

Just because you run a business doesn't mean you are gauranteed to make money and not have honest efforts to plug your business backfire in your face. And if you ignore the laws governing your conduct don't be surprised when you get slapped.

Now I know your retort will be "well! The law code is so hard that the average person can't understand it and can't afford a lawyer to double check the legality of every action! WAAAAAAAA!"

My response? He just got a lesson in the law. And it only cost him $500.

Life isn't fair. Get a helmet and an unlisted number.

P.S.- The Washington Post had a great article on all the scam handymen in the region. So while you say actually works hard for that $500 I say he ripped off some old lady while cleaning her gutters and "reshingled" her roof. Both of our conjectures have one thing in common: there is no proof of either of them.

Do we need MORE lawsuits?

[gosand]

Seriously, which is worse in this country, the annoying-ass advertisers/marketers or the legal system?

At first I was all for this attorney, but then I read his comment about filing in small claims court being "addictive". You know what? Instead of enacting revenge, and passing on all of the bad feelings that you accumulate, why not try to change things by starting with yourself?

Ironically, people who are angry all the time piss me off! Hey, the marketer had it coming, but do you think the $500 the lawyer got really did anything? If the guy is cold calling people, he doesn't have many scruples, and will get that $500 back somehow. He didn't learn any lesson. Now you might think that the solution is that EVERYONE should sue him, but it isn't. We've created this money driven society ourselves, so who can blame the people who try to capitalize on it. What, you think you are above it? Have you ever cheated on your tax returns, tried to screw some company because of a pricing error, voided a warranty on a product and tried to return it? Even if you have never been taken in by greed, now is not the time to start. Hey, it's tough, I know. But I have finally just become so sick of it that I am trying not to be like that. But in the U.S. it is very hard, because we are all about money money money, consume consume consume.

We are ALL part of this society, and the only way to change it is by starting with yourself. I am not about to cheer a lawyer for suing a telemarketer, any more than I would cheer Hilary Rosen for kicking Bill Gates in the nuts.

Re:Do we need MORE lawsuits?

[commodoresloat]

any more than I would cheer Hilary Rosen for kicking Bill Gates in the nuts.

I don't think I would cheer her either but I would certainly download the mpg file of it from p2p!

Re:that's illegal too

[skarmor]

While it is illegal for a telemarketer to intentionally block their phone number it is still possible that the CallerID (CLID) information will not be sent due to system limitations. Digital Exchange Access (DEA) Line-side and V-Net Service, which do not support the transmission of calling party number comprise a large percentage of line-side connections.

Re:Yes! YES!!!!

[TheViffer]

The bad thing is that "non-profits" do not have the same restrictions as a business.

Do not need to use do not call lists, can call you over and over, can use pre recoreded messages.

I think 75% of the Tele calls I receive to day from from such "non-profit organizations".

Honest bidnezmens

[wowbagger]

Sorry, but I don't buy the "but he was just an honest businessman who made a mistake" line.

He bought an autodialer with the expressed intent of telemarketing his business. He knew that what he was doing is held in very low regard by the general population, and he did it anyway.

The arguement you often hear of "but I was just trying to make a living" applies equally well to crack dealers as to telemarketers.

In fact:

Wowbagger's top 5 reasons why crack dealers are better than telemarketers
5) Some people actually WANT what the crack dealer sells.
4) Crack dealers don't knock on my door while I'm having dinner and say "You want to buy some crack?"
3) When you tell them you aren't interested, crack dealers leave you alone.
2) Crack dealers don't give your name and number to other people (except, perhaps, to law enforcement).
1) Crack dealers AREN'T TELEMARKETERS!

claim you're "recording" them

[fudgefactor7]

I used to work for a telemarketing firm (yes, I'm still filled with self-loathing over it, thank you very much--you know, the scent never leaves?) and routinely we would record our calls (for verification)--standard procedure. If we ever called anyone and they said that they were going to record the conversation, we were under orders to terminate the call immediately and remove them from the calling list.

Worth a try, I've never used it because I only get calls that are just dead air...must be the Illuminati or something.

Re:claim you're "recording" them

[DiveX]

So you're saying you may have routinely violated state laws in regards to recording? Multiple states have 'all-party' recording laws. All parties to a conversation must be aware of the recording.

The dead air calls are caused by automated dialers. A telemarketer will typically have more lines than sales people. Say you have 20 lines and 10 reps, the lines would all be dialed..some get busy signals, so are not in service, and some get answered. The first 10 people that pick up instantly get transferred to a rep. You information pops up on their screen before you finish saying 'hello?'. A delay before they pick up can be a result of their not getting the information fast enough or starting the speech too late, though typically only a 2-3 second lag. The dead air you get is a result of 10 other people getting to the phone before you. Once all the telemarketers are busy, then the system is supposed to hang up, but they typically means your phone rings once more, and even if you pick up, the system may already be hanging up. The problem, however, is that the identification requirements are not met. Persons or entities placing a call are supposed to identify themselves (by full name) and provide and address or phone number. Once the call is placed, the solicitation has begun, whether you ever hear a single word or not. Unfortunately, telemarketers hide their Caller ID info, though this should end in 2004 when FTC regulations come into effect.

I have had several suits and settlements regarding telemarketing myself and am about to file several more. Exercise your rights.

Unfortunately, like in this case, it is easier for the person to break the law and just pay off a few people clued in while raking in money from the ignorant.

"Plainly, it ought not to be cheaper to violate the Act and be sued than to comply with the statutory requirements." Bueno v. MATTNER, 633 F. Supp. 1446, 1467 (1986) quoting Beliz v. W.H. McLeod & Sons Packing Co., 765 F.2d 1317, 1332 (5th Cir. 1985)

Re:claim you're "recording" them

[TotallyUseless]

1st off, all he said was that he told them it was being recorded, he never said he actually recorded them.

2nd, wouldnt telling them *that they are being recorded* satisfy the requirement that they know *they are being recorded*?!?!

Re:claim you're "recording" them

[gmhowell]

A recent court case showed why: some telemarketing firm used recordings as 'proof' of some heinous sales agreement. Turns out the tapes were doctored.

Win-Win

[Michael_Burton]

Oh, good. There aren't enough lawsuits.

Telemarketers vs. Lawyers in an epic Battle to the Death!

I know a lot of people who would consider that a win-win situation.

Agreed, also for Fax and Junk Mail

[T-Kir]

I signed my parents Pub up on this list and the Fax Preference System (and the Mail P S), and within two months the amount of sales calls and reams of wasted fax paper went down to zero... a customer of ours was lamenting to us about the same problems with his phone and fax line, and he wouldn't believe us that it worked (one month later though he was most impressed).

Ever since signing up to this opt out scheme, we've only ever had ONE sales phone call, and fortunately I was there to 'casually' inform them that if we were not removed from their (and any company shared) contact list, that they were liable for a very big fine, and that they were in violation of the opt-out list to which they are meant to adhere to and risked criminal prosecution for violation of (not sure if it was true, but it added significant weight to our argument)... it's a call that left me feeling very empowered for a change!

TPS Online - with links to the sister sites for FaxPS, MailPS and even e-mailPS... although I never bothered with the latter, considering the amount of e-mail sources that is way out of their control.

Re:TPS acronym correction, plus link

[christopherfinke]

TPS, for the UK, is the Telephone Preference Service.

Insert joke here involving words "cover sheet", "memo", and "yeeeeeeaaaaahhhhh."

whoa, they screwed the pooch on that one!

[mekkab]

IS MR. HIND-ER-LITER HERE (pronounced incorrectly of course)?"

Considering your screen name of jonJOHNSON I'd say that is QUITE a mis-pronounciation!

Pretend you're a business

[transient]

AT&T once called me at work to sell me long distance service. When I answered the phone by stating my name (which I'm sure most people do at the office) the telemarketer asked if she'd called a business. When I said yes, she simply apologized and hung up. I can only assume that my work number has been permanently erased from their records.

So now I answer my home phone as if I were at work. Mwahaha!

Please send $1 to...

[BTWR]

Greetings sir! Please send $1 to Happy Dude!
Evergreen Terrace, Springfield

Telemarketers are easily confused.

[Ayandia]

Although he passed away six years ago, my home phone is still in my grandfather's name.

I frequently get marketing calls for my grandfather, and I've found that the BEST response is:
"I'm sorry, he's dead. Can I take a message?"

They very rarely leave messages, although one or two have asked when would be a better time call back.

Re:Telemarketers are easily confused.

[AlgUSF]

When I lived at home, my brother recieved calls from debt collectors, and I told them he was serving 5 years in prison. I told another collector that he was dead, and started acting like I was all broken up after they said his name. :-)

Re:Telemarketers are easily confused.

[schon]

the BEST response is: "I'm sorry, he's dead. Can I take a message?"

This is, indeed, the best response..

In the late 80's, I started getting phone calls for "Leanne" - they came at all hours of the day and night, and from different people.. Since I'd had the phone number for 3 years, I could only assume that this "Leanne" person couldn't remember her own phone number.

After a couple of weeks of this, I was woken up at 3:30 in the morning by one of these calls.. when they asked for Leanne, I told them "No, I'm sorry - she's dead."

The response was shock - "what happened"

So I told them that Leanne was hit by a bus on the way home..

The (of course) asked if there was anything they could do.. and I said - "Yes, can you call all of her friends and let them know?"

And that was the last call for "Leanne" I ever got.

Get rid of telemarketers easy

[failedlogic]

When I've gotten telemarketing calls, instead of saying the typical "I'm not interested" I'll say the first ridiculous excuse that comes off the top of my head and it seems to work. I used to be called at least 2 to 3 times a week (and no I did not buy their products) and now I rarely get a call during a given month.

For example:
1) Lawn care companies? Tell them you have a turf lawn or similar. Or tell them the overspray from the company spraying your neighbors lawn is taking care of your lawn as well. Its worked quite well.
2) Newpapers? I tell them I'm illiterate.
3) Alarm Systems? This is the best of all! I acutally convinced the guy I live on a military base in a nuclear bunker and he bought it! Funny thing was, he tried selling me fire and theft insurance. Of course, I explaied these are theft and fire proof as they housed nuclear weapons.

Who needs lawsuits? I have fun with them and I get rid of their calls. I've had to threaten the repeat callers w/ small claims court suits and it works. However, we need stronger/clearer laws against telemarketing and spammers.

Please don't mod this as funny. I'm quite serious even with the Alarm system thing. The idiot bought it but they also stopped calling.

the next bugaboo: intntl telemarketers!

[rjnagle]

I hate to deliver the bad news to you guys, but with the advent of cheap international telephone calls, the next logical step is for telemarketing calls to move overseas. Companies that make this move will no longer have to worry about TCPA and can literally call anytime. Perhaps the check to this lies in the companies that telemarketers promote; if they are big and international, they might be subject to TCPA, but it's doubtful whether Bangalore telemarketers for ATT put ATT at any risk of liability. I have been gathering evidence for some small claim TCPA actions. If you want to cost these companies money, demand that they send a written copy of this policy. (Although most telemarketers don't know this, TCPA requires it! If they don't, they are subject to a $500 penalty). And even if they do send it, it imposes a cost on telemarketing calls. More info at junkbusters .

Do Not Call lists

[iamweezman]

Keeping a telemarketer on the phone playing games with them, lecturing them pressing a button or whatever else has been suggested really doesn't work well.

Having worked on the phones way too much in a college infested town, I realize that even though these techniques may hurt the company and cause the telemarketer to hate his job even more it doesn't usually reduce the calls you get. In fact the ruder that you are the more likely that a telemarketer will get his only form of revenge on you by dispositioning the call as a no answer or not avaliable. This can cause the dialer to call you back within minutes with an unsuspecting new telemarketer on the line ready to give his pitch and annoy you again. Sure this makes the telemarketing company lose money, but you will not beat the odds in the end.

Besides suing the company that calls you, the only way to gaurantee that you don't get called again is to ask to be put on the do not call list. This actually blocks the number on the dialer, and telemarketers would be much more likely to do this to a sensible and nice person who asks for them to please not call them. The average telemarketer hates his job and understands that people hate their calls. They hate getting calls too, so they will empathize with the one person that is actually decent and nice.

As long as there are broke college students that will do anything to pay for their pizza, tuition, and books these marketing companies will always have cheap labor.

Formatting.

[Andy Dodd]

I believe that back in the day when WP and MSOffice were approximately even, WP had some formatting features that made it slightly better for legal documents.

Apparently, over the years, MS has made Word more and more generic and LESS suited to legal use than it was in the past. Meanwhile, Corel realized that they have a good hold on the niche market of law firms, and began specifically catering to law firms.

As a result, WP evolved into a vastly superior application for law firms. It's a niche market for Corel, but a VERY solid niche.

"OUT OF AREA" Explained

[p.rican]

The telco is not blocking the caller ID information. Caller ID is not guaranteed to work out of what is called your 'LATA' (Local Access Transport Area) If you live in NY, your LATA number is 132 which covers all 5 boros of NYC, Westchester County(?), Long Island and a little piece of Greenwich CT. The caller ID information is stored in a database that's part of a separate packet network called SS7. Your telco provider makes a 'dip' or databse query into a CNAM database to get caller ID info based on the number that is calling/called. This SS7 network is used in setting up calls and tearing them down as well as a myriad of other features it can provide. If Caller ID was guaranteed to work across the country between every carrier in the US, the length of time it would take to setup a phone call would be prohibitively long...That's just the basic jist of it. You don't realize how much goes on from the time you pick up your handset, dial some digits and get audible ringing.. Hope that clarifies the situation for you. Please don't mod me down as GEEK

No awe, just shock.

[raoulotoole]

Like others, I have used otherwise unproductive time to play with these people.
Instead of asking them to hold on or following a script I enjoy the opportunity of letting my imagination run wild. I find the funniest exchanges take place with plain old phone sex. If you're good you can keep them on the line for more than 15 minutes. The object is to keep them on the line until YOU decide to end the call.

Start with-
Are you wearing underwear? What color?
Ask if they're touching themself during the call. Tell them you are.

Ask if they are over 18. If they say yes, ask if they would like to meet in person. Tell them you will send them a plane ticket. Or tell them you'll meet them at the side door at the end of their shift.

They either won't know what to say or will tell you the call is being recorded. Say "I know... I listen to my tapes late at night..."

You get the idea.

Method to deal with Junk Faxes.

[slappy_guru]

Wait until Friday afternoon:

1] If the return fax is an 800 # great!
2] If not make sure your fax # is on an unlimited long distance plan
3] Tape 3-4... 8.5 by 11 sheets together
4] Write on them "UNSOLICITED FAXING IS AGAINST FEDRAL LAW!!!!"
5] Feed into fax machine and tape the first sheet to the last sheet.
6] Program the return fax # into your fax.
7] Hit send key !!!
8] If you feel like it stop the call on Monday, unless you have already run the junk faxer out of paper and the call is already stopped!

Re:Method to deal with Junk Faxes.

[sid crimson]

Or... find black paper and write your message in white ink. :-D

-sid

Isn't it ironic?

[coke_dite]

When I was a telemarketer (don't shoot me please, I was starving!), we sold magazine subscriptions to people in Mississippi-Alabama-Louisiana from a little office in Ottawa, Canada. I find it amusing that telemarketers will now be required to transmit Caller ID information :) Back then, we were ORDERED to dial *67 (or whatever the ID Block thing is) before EACH call, so that the calls couldn't be traced easily. Never mind the fact that we were calling from outside the country in an attempt to circumvent US laws (didn't work tho, the company that we were contracted to was US-based, so the owner got screwed that way). Funny things, those laws. Most people running call centres here haven't got the slightest clue. I'm sure the owners of the companies are a little more aware, but the people actually working the floors don't know squat.

I'd be interested to see what the laws are in Canada.

us laws wont stop them.

[bani]

the worst telemarketer fraud is from companies operating in canada, in order to avoid US law. canadianus telco rates are low enough that its economical enough for them to operate like this.

911 is free.

[michaelhood]

Your local ILEC telco is required by law to provide you with a dialtone for 911 usage, so if you cancelled your landline, you should still have a dialtone on the line, which can only be used to call 911.