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Broadband Barrage Balloons
alnya writes "BBC Online are reporting a story of a York-based company called SkyLinc who are floating baloons connected to a fibre optic pole which, they say, can deliver broadband access at "more than double the speed of most broadband services currently available" - whatever that means. Only 18 balloons would be necessarily to blow BT out the water (according to the article). Is this on the horizon?"
We used to use weather balloons for field day. It's ok, until a good wind kicks up.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
in other news Steve Case is no longer the largest windbag in broadband.
Mike
Pellet gun.
Banaaaana!
this story is just a load of hot air
Before adopting WHATWG, read the moonlight.NET EULA [http://www.microsoft.com/interop/msnovellcollab/moonlight.mspx]
I could be wrong, but a strong powered BB-Gun would be all that's needed to blow them out of the water!
-=SiGH=-
According to the article, the ballons would be 1.5 Km above the Earth's surface. Good luck finding a high-powered rifle, let alone a pellet gun, that would be able to accurately hit one of these ballons.
In C++, friends can touch each others private parts.
Is this on the horizon?
No, it's overhead.
I have to say...I've got DSL. Would I pay $10 more for twice the speed? Nope. I, like most people, I think, divide expectations into two categories: instant and "a while". I expect page loads to be instant, and I expect a video I'm downloading to take "a while". DSL delivers on these. So basically, the improvement only comes in "a while".
In that "a while", I go off and do other things, perhaps (gasp!) even leaving the computer for a while. That that will take 5 mintues rather than 10, or 30 seconds rather than a minute delivers very little value to me, and I think "good enough" might really crowd out "best" here.
If your bitterest enemies are people who hack the heads off civilians, then I would say you're doing something right.
Biggest problem I see; these balloons are filled with helium, when they use a pipe to channel the voices thru these things, won't they come back sounding like that nervous duck? I dunno, IANAE (engineer)
Ahh, the upgrade to RFC 1149 is here at last.
*whips out his blow gun*
And why are balloons used in navel warfare?
Zeppelin-NT ?
Sigs are bad for your health.
Rednecks will shoot the balloons. Trust me.
We'll reward 50,000$ anyone who shoots those evil pirate balloons!
Remember: When you are download MP3, you are downloading COMMUNISM !!!
-- This message is brought to you by the RIAA/MPAA.
from the article:
The technology behind the idea has been around for years, with the US Government operating several such aerostats as communication systems on its borders and the US military employing similar technology for about 50 years.
so, it seems to be pretty workable, and according to the article its not to expensive. so whats the reason this isn't already wildly addapted? i didn't see any problems mentioned in the article
People will subscribe to this for the exact same reason you subscribe to DSL. Remember on 56k when web pages were "instant", "a while" was for music (if you're lucky), and video was "read war and peace and see if the stream is done downloading"? $10 more/month is definitely worth double bandwidth.
if(!toilet_paper) roll.replace(new roll);
We even like to make water flow uphill
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3046791.stm
Ok,just to stop silly pellet gun comments... it would take one that could shoot 1.5km accurately (according to article that is how high they are and for the metrically impaired that's just under a mile), so that would be one nifty pellet gun. But it wouldn't suprise me in one such toy weapon existed in the US....
The article only mentions the opportunity for UK coverage but what about countries where laying fiber/cable would be a huge undertaking. 3rd World contries could certainly benefit from this kind of technology, if it works as well as they say it does. Wiring countries without the usual western infrastructure might be much more cost effective with this approach. Though I am not holding my breath on this... though the article does mention that the US military uses things like these...
"The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away" -Tom Waits
What is more, it is would not slow down as more and more people use the service which is the case with DSL - broadband via the phone line.
finally, infinite bandwidth...on another note... I'm off to go play with my perpetual motion machine...
BAM!!!
I don't believe he fell for that one.
Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated up.
It stems from Decoration Day, originally a Confederate holiday during which the graves of those fallen in combat were visited and decorated.
STOP ROCK VIDEO
And yes, this is meant seriously :)
One-word question:
Airplanes?
========================================
Death will come, and will have your eyes
-- Pavese
"Is this on the horizon?"
No, it isn't. This is just a stupid idea.
From the article: What is more, it is would not slow down as more and more people use the service which is the case with DSL - broadband via the phone line. Huh? I fail to see how just 18 base stations would provide total UK coverage and at the same time be able to provide, say, 2Mbps up and down to all customers at the same time. The United Kingdom has a lot of people in it, last I checked. And DSL only slows down if the ISP's resources are over-provisioned from their point up. Cable is the one where resources are over-provisioned at the last-mile and up. Or does DSL somehow work different in the UK?
Also, although the article does address the issue of weather, I'd assume that performance must decrease somewhat during an electrical storm as more errors are introduced into the bitstream.
I doubt the military will be using them - it's an awfully easy target. Not open to a pellet gun attack, obviously, but perhaps to air-to-ground missile attack.
I assume that eavesdropping would have to be done at their altitude? Or could you listen in on unencrypted communication from wherever you could stick an antenna?
Perhaps the existing ground level wiring will make a nice backup for customers that want this sort of security.
Aaaaaarrrrrgggggghhhhh!
I think the goal for this is to be above the horizon.
It's an interesting idea though.
While most Americans consider blimps only suitable for promotional purposes and overhead golf shots, the merry olde English are trying to find some use for the obsolete gasbags.
Yes, we all know what a crime it is to be innovative and thoughtful in America, unless you have the funding of a large company behind you and you#ve been garanteed by market research that your project will have a large return.
It's really no surprise, the country loves it's eccentrics, from Sinclair's little electric scooter to the Osborne luggable to the Robin Reliant to their steam powered subway trains.
I'd love to see one of these steam powered subway trains you speak of, by my recollection they were put out of service quite some time ago. Of course when it opened on the 10th of January in 1863 steam was the norm, but that was phased out by 1961. You see, our underground train system is half the age of your whole damn country, and has inspired systems like it the world over and still it carrys more people than any other.
Their standard of living would improve if they ever upgrade their technology to at least 1970's level, but then their little country wouldn't have the Disneyesque appeal.
Have you ever actually been to the UK for more than tourism? The school I went to is older than the united states, by almost twice as much. Our country has great herritage and we like to preserve that herritage, and we do so while modernising our services. The touristy areas make these modernisations less apparent because they're less attractive to tourists. I suggest you come live here for a few years and make your mind up on the "Disneyesqe Appeal".
I think you'll find the US has far more luddite encampments dotted around the place, who embrace guns and spurn any sort of government or technology that there are over here, maybe they should be dealt with?
-- John Linford
Wireless Surfer:
Hey... hey, my download speed's really getting quite good now... whoa, 5 MB/sec! Wow! This is unbelievable! This--hey, what's that? Hey, look out! Look--
The coolest voice ever.
ah yes, our good friend security would be left in the dust... wireless is inherently insecure, so as long as people are comfortable with it, i guess itll do fine.
This is my digital signature. 10011011001
Well, the C.A.A. has approved 2 of these sites in Yorkshire with cables extending to 1500m (approx 5000ft AGL).
Now, this is all very good and well until they decide to apply for licences in high aviation traffic areas say: West of the Pennines or anywhere within 75miles of Manchester Airport.
It seems unlikely that the licences would be granted as these things don't just require "Danger-Area" status but a complete DNF area status for serveral miles around. With the U.K. having very little airspace available below the 'airways', this could get to be a major hassle for G/A and Military aviation.
Note: For those of you not in the UK, airspace below the 'airways' is largely populated by Aerodrome Traffic Zones and MATZ due to the small land-mass and (relatively) high density of major airports.
Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
When they stop putting tires around each others necks and setting them on fire, we will consider sending these balloons over their way.
Yes but this speeds data BOTH ways. It's worth it for that. Most DSL' obviously don't.
Fun aside and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that ADSL slows down as more users connect. I think they mixed it up with cable, which does have this issue.
They state bandwidth, but would anyone care to guess what kind of latency we would be looking at? I know satellite connections have too high a latency for games, but then again they are miles up...
"You see, our underground train system is half the age of your whole damn country, and has inspired systems like it the world over and still it carrys more people than any other."
Sorry to burst your bubble, since I am in the UK too and was enjoying your heated response to the obvious troll above, but the Tokyo underground system carries more people daily than the London Underground does.
graspee
[Obligatory Critic Reference] From "Red Balloon 2 -- The Balloon's REVENGE":
Terrorist: "One more step and the red balloon becomes the dead balloon."
[Scared kid releases baloon]
Terrorist: "How did I not see that coming..."
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion.
What's really sad is, I know places in the UK where on a BT line you can barely get 28kbit/s on an analogue modem, let alone broadband. We have a long way to go. :-(
Stick Men
One-word question:
Airplanes?
That's what I was thinking as I read this article. Fortunately most commercial airplanes fly well above 1.5km, just make sure you don't put these balloons near an airport. General aviation planes (that is, small private planes, not commercial airliners) often fly much lower, and these balloons would be a serious safety threat for them. The balloons would need to be brightly marked and lighted, and there presence would need to be depicted on aeronautical charts. Assuming that's done, however, and assuming there are not so many of them that flying at 1.5km or below becomes an obstacle course, I think it would be okay. If they put VOR transmitters (something pilots use for navigation) in the balloons, they could actually benefit pilots.
Of course, the main benefit as far as internet access goes is to be able to reach rural areas. My guess is that the speed claims would not hold true in real usage, and concerns about privacy and security would be significant. For those in rural areas that have little other choice, this could be one of the few choices they have.
Then you would have lost all that revenue from selling munitions to both sides of the war.
Lessee...
Sinclair C5, I give you the Segway.
Osborne Luggable, I give you the C64-SX, not to mention a luggable that Compaq made for a while. (Still got one, somewhere...)
Robin Reliant, I give you the (Kaboom!) Pinto. Oh, and the Plymouth Reliant.
As for the steam powered subways, the then Metropolitan Railway was running in London in 1863, well before electric trains had been invented, and in 1890, the London Underground was the first to convert to electric power. Somebody tell this to the good folks in San Francisco, whose streetcars still use a cable drive, and the folks in NYC whose subway didn't get rolling until 1904. (Alfred Ely Beech didn't really count.)
Britain and Europe may be behind North American standards in technology in some respects, but far ahead in others. Phones, roads and railways come to mind. And if their Disneyesque standard of living is so bad, why does Disney like to copy it?
Okay, the balloons are only a mile up and are meters across. It'd be very easy to launch a DoS attack against them with conventional weaponry. And because it's America, you know how millions of us have firearms, right?
.45 caliber converted automatic rifles.
Imagine some redneck interrupted in the middle of a WWE download because the connection goes out. And imagine said redneck running outside in frustration and opening fire on the broadband balloon with his
Cyde Weys Musings - Scrutinizing the inscrutable
Whoops, so it does. Doesn't change anything though :)
-- John Linford
antenna's are bad enough but baloons on 1.5km tethers represent a significant hazard to aviation
I'd definitely tend to agree with you. Our cable service is certainly 'good enough' for my web browsing and downloading needs.
However I think the real killer here is the wireless aspect. Imagine paying for one broadband account that you can use anywhere sans wires. For me I'd plunk down the extra $10 without a second thought.
regards,
Nik
The sending of this message pretty much inconveniences everyone involved.
You might be surprised/interested to know that the same situation applies here in the states too.
so, they might as well throw in a few cell phone antennas while they are at it. Oh and a few of those video surveillance cameras that they are so fond of over there.
my sig
networks crashing. Oh the humanity!
A Bombardier Learjet 45 cruises at 43,000 feet.
A Boeing 777 cruises at 35,000 feet.
A 1999 Cessna Skyhawk SP cruises at 14,000 feet
A Grumman AA5A (2 passenger) cruises at 8,500 feet.
These ballons would fly at under 5000 feet.
Now, look out your window. See any airplanes? It's not like the sky is thick with them. I live within 5 miles of a medium sized commercial airport (just a little too small for trans-atlantic/continental flights), and I barely ever hear an airccraft, let alone see one.
Now consider some fairly remote location that would benefit most form this kind of tech: Namely, places that wouldn't have the information infastructure that would normally be required to support a bust airfield.
I don't think it's a critical issue. Just mount a beacon light to them like you would with a tower or other tall structure, maybe even a radio beacon since visibility is always a concern.
=Smidge=
Ok,just to stop silly pellet gun comments...
:)
Humor needs no basis in fact.
The coolest voice ever.
but when the RIAA and government realizes that 1 billion+ people have chosen to use a monetary defeating system, a.k.a Kazza then they and their minions will go into hiding or change sides altogether. when this happens governments will fall, monies will lose all reason, economies will flourish without the constriction of red-tape and the people, being in control once again, will download entire drawing sets of consumer items, cars, 747s so that they may print them out on their 3d printers.
and when we get there someone better have that fucking broadband running or we're gonna be pissed.
There's really nothing new here except the idea of using balloons. Wireless Internet has been available for a while now. The biggest flops so far have been Metricom (the original incarnation of the Ricochet Internet service) and Sprint Broadband Direct.
I had Metricom/Ricochet while I was in college. The Metricom radios, about the size of shoeboxes (1/1000 of a VW Beetle), were mounted on utility poles every kilometer or so. It was a great technology that was mostly killed by incompetent management, high deployment cost, and irrelevance as the rest of the world went from dial-up to DSL/cable. The bandwidth was pretty good for its day, but its latency sucked (typically 400ms minimum).
My dad got Sprint Broadband Direct after ditching DSL. Our DSL was unreliable since our house was too far from Pac Bell's switch box. Also, there is no cable modem service available in our area. So we turned to Sprint, which serves the San Francisco Bay Area through a tower in the Fremont Hills, about 50 km away. A Sprint technician came and installed a small dish antenna on our roof, and permanently aimed it at the tower.
We have been dissatisfied with Sprint Broadband Direct because:
- The latency sucks (400ms average)
- Lots of dropped packets, which I believe are due to the wireless link (10% typical, and worse when foggy)
The combination of those two factors make SSH use unbearable. We were stuck with it because Sprint requires a 1-year committment to offset the cost of installation.The Sprint service isn't for everyone, since it requires a clear line of sight to the tower on the hill, and the right to mount an antenna on the roof. Combined with the high cost of deployment, these drawbacks have forced Sprint to deprecate the service.
The SkyLinc system seems to be most like Sprint's. The elevation of the balloons will be an advantage (probably negated by the fact that the antennas are not exactly stationary), but they'll have to overcome the same difficulties that have plagued previous systems.
they oughta float some above Iraq, Baghdad as a stopgap measure until communications infrastructure is mended. come to think of it, would come in very handy in desaster stricken places, like Algeria, where earthquakes destroyed a lot of the infrastructure.
I doubt this would hold up in very windy and/or stormy weather. A baloon is hardly fail safe, especially considering its vulnerability to weather.
A few optimistic points do stick out:
Infinite capacity?
Twice as infinite!
The antenna is hanging from a tethered balloon. Unsurprisingly, the magic means of keeping it from bobbing about is not discussed in detail.
Going completely unaddressed is the question of what the user's ground station would look like. Presumably you'd need a small dish with line-of-sight to the balloon to receive; I don't know what kind of transmitter you'd be looking at.
Mind the Gap
And how isn't this off-topic also?
Lets see:
Blimps: never used by the US in combat...O/T
In the UK: Memorial Day is a US celebration...O/T
For Broadband: If memory serves correctly, the Confederates didn't have 56k dial-up, let alone broadband...O/T
I'm Canadian, so I'll try to be neutral on this issue. I know for a fact that the British are quite advanced, especially when it comes to their rampant cellphone use. The cell networks in Britain are a lot more developed than in North America. SMS in Britain is the biggest thing since the Big Ben. On the other hand however, just because your school is 'older than my country' doesn't make it any better than my school, which was established in 1911. Granted that your school has history, that's all fine and dandy, but really what does that have to do with technology of today?
-I DDoSed your mom.
"Tolerances will vary depending on content - but unless you're a hardcore MPEG/DivX downloader then higher than 512 is not particularly different *today* until multimedia content producers force higher bandwidth, and this is not worth it for most, until enough people have very high speed access and the infrastructure to handle it also."
And the whole "copyright/piracy" issue is resolved.
"A 1999 Cessna Skyhawk SP cruises at 14,000 feet"
IAAP and FWIW those altitudes are service ceilings. In other words it's the maximum altitude the airplane can effectively achieve. In practice general aviation aircraft almost never go that high (in fact, above 12,500 ft. FAA regulations require the use of supplemental oxygen). Normal cruising altitudes for light aircraft are typically between 2000-9000 ft, putting these balloons right in the airspace GA planes fly.
It doesn't really matter though, since their location will appear on charts so pilots can avoid them. The fact is, at least in the US, there are all sorts of towers, mountains, and whatnot that poke up high enough to be a potential hazard. But since they are stationary and their locations well known, they do not pose an undue threat. I am far more concerend about other airplanes than fixed obstacles. They are small and they move. But the sky is a very big place, and due diligence applied to what's going on outside of the cockpit will help ensure your safety.
-Vercingetorix
"Necessitas non habet legem." -St. Augustine
Wow. And I thought it was only the UK that was a nation of internet luddites :-( I suppose it's up to the people to come up with their own soultions, independent of the big monopolies.
Stick Men
The biggest problem with high-altitude tethered aerostats is that the tether is invisible to aircraft. Typically, they aren't even lit. And, of course, the balloons move with the wind somewhat, so you can't even be sure what location to avoid. Therefore, you'd have to have a pretty wide area to avoid.
That said, the US has several tethered aerostats along its southern border, used to monitor weather, to check for low-flying smugglers and to broadcast propaganda to Cuba. The internation border is, of course, an area with strict flying restrictions already, so it isn't too much of a burden.
Unfortunately, these balloons in England are planned (perhaps that's too strong a word. Shilled?) to be in the middle of fairly populated and high-traffic areas. Cordoning off all of these areas would be a problem, and unlikely to be 100% successful. Right now, people violate airspace accidentally all the time -- but it's usually not that big a deal -- it's just air. Running into one of these tethers would likely be a big deal -- you'd probably lose both the plane and the balloon.
Perhaps the balloons could be flown far higher somewhat offshore? The US flies its aerostats at 50,000 ft (about 16 km). From that altitude, the amount of ground area seen by the balloon would be almost 100x as great. Private planes typically don't fly very far offshore, so the risk of hitting the tether would be lower -- and in the case that there is a collision the wreakage would fall into the sea instead of a city.
Perhaps GPS will solve this problem. If all private planes had perfect GPS systems with all airspaces clearly marked and rigged to alarms, then this might work smoothly with the current plan. You'd probably have to legislate that all planes have certificated (or whatever the term is in England) GPS's -- but they would be broadly useful devices in any case.
Anyway, in the end, the idea of flying relays has been promoted innumerable times -- and it never happens. Cable is, in the end, cheaper, faster, more reliable, and safer. It's not as sexy as this system (although sexiness is in the eye of the beholder -- or should I say stockholder) but it gets the job done.
thad
I love Mondays. On a Monday, anything is possible.
Yes, no need for high powered weapons when you apply the Black & Decker 4 1/2" Angle Grinder directly to the tether!!
Alright, alright, you do actually have to be inside the mooring compound to do it but if you are prepared to go running round the English countryside with large, high-powered rifles, this should be small-fry!
Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
Can anyone shed more light on how exactly this works?
1) The article mentions putting the ballon up 1.5k, and tethering it, yet it apparently remains static in strong breeze. The photo didn't seem to show any thrusters or reaction control devices, so how do they plan on keeping the thing steady? Are there lots of tethers in all directions? Or is "steady" a relative term, and the balloon can float around on the end of one tether without affecting service?
2) They say they only need 18 to cover the whole of Britain, in 2000 sqm chunks; this may be geographically true, but how many users get access within that chunk? The same area would have 2000 Mobile phone base stations, yet these easily get maxxed out if too many people want to make a call. The balloon approach dramatically reduces the number of base stations. How does the ballon handle 2000 times as many simultaneous bidirectional signals and not get maxxed out?
Russ %-)
... and never, ever play leapfrog with a unicorn.
My,
Broadband is supplied via microwave from about 20 miles away and it works pretty good. I have a pizza box sized antenna on my roof and a cable extending to a cable modem like box. From there it is purely regular TCP/IP.
On the other end my understanding is that they have an array of transmitters on one big pole at the top of a mountain. Each transmitter broadcasts to a certain swath of the coverage area.
Now substitute the mountain with a balloon and you have essentially the same system.
But, as has been mentioned before, what about the weather and aviation issues (I could just see these balloons becoming prime targets for lunatic suicidal pilots).
If the signal could be transmitted from already existing cell phone towers without line-of-sight issues it seems that that would be a far preferable way to approach the problem.
My broadband setup proves that laying cable is just lame.
Has anybody ever looked at the manual for a police scanner? Did you notice how much spectrum is provided to railways, forestry service, etc. etc.? And did you try to listen in on a railway conversation? I programmed my scanner to pick up the railroads and I heard nothing from them for about a month. I want some of that spectrum!
Caution: Contents under pressure
There's another story too: they wanted to move the labour day from May Day to later in the year to take away the significance of the hanging of some unionists in Chicago in the 19th century, which was at that time of year. That story sounds like the paranoia of unionists and anarchists. It is odd that the US has their labour and rememberance days the opposite way around to the rest of the world.
One could easily shoot the cable rather than the baloon. You could walk up to it Matrix style, yell dodge this, and shoot, or sit back a couple hundred yards w/ a bag of peanuts and a rifle for the afternoon.
No, it's overhead.
--jdp Maintainer of VisEmacs
You need a good grounding in practical aeronautics, like weight. I doubt very much these balloons would have any kevlar armor. Keerist, a balloon is a huge thing! The German balloons of WW I were military weapons going in harm's way and had no armor, do you really think anyone is going to armor a com balloon where every penny counts?
They may well compartmentalize the bag, but all that will mean is that it has to come down for repair when the bag is peirced, and they will be able to do that under some kind of graceful degradation control. Still a DoS. A mission kill doesn't necesarily mean destruction.
No, the communication gondola won't be shielded. Weight, weight, weight. There's a reason airplanes use so much expensive equipment and materials, they want to save weight, and as expensive as that is, it's cheaper than a bigger engine and wings, or bag in this case.
Infuriate left and right
The US military and the US Immigration service use them on the border with Mexico, they use them for long range radar to they can see the drug smuggling planes flying/cars driving along a dirt trail.
18 to cover the UK probably leaves out a number of things, like how much of the networking is covered by wire, what you need to connect to these things and how long can the balloons stay up before their Helium leaks out and needs to be replaced.
It's likely they would need a replacement every few days at least, if not then why don't Nasa use Helium more in their solar powered "stay up forever" plane.
BB
As someone who lives in a low-density area of the UK, I really hope this floats. BT and Blueyonder (UK cable company) will never roll our broadband to this area because it wouldn't be profitable.
"The number of Unix installations has grown to ten, with more expected." (Unix Programmer's Manual, 2nd ed.; june 1972)
What's "on the horizon" to you may be 2 miles up to the person directly underneath.
ok lets assume its not going to be easy to shoot these down (well the same level of difficulty as running into an exchange and shooting all the equipment). Lets also assume that 18 of these will be able to give enough bandwidth for the whole country, even if one fails from the odd lightning strike/plane hit/microsoft-based on board system crash. And maybe people will not mind seeing these things up (it will just look like a blimp thats not going anywhere - like in ms flight sim;) and lets also assume, just for the sake of it, that this whole thing will work even in bad weather and they'll manage to get the funding for it and the spectrum and that no-one will be able to jam it- Assuming all that is ok: erm no nevermind.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Rockets that can reach that far with sufficient accuracy can be made cheaply and easily
No way you are just making this up.
There's no way you could make a rocket that would fly for a mile and then hit a weather balloon.
That takes guidance and control -- there's no doubt that the rocket would just be blown off course if it even was able to fly that far.
I hope you don't try to do this since your lack of knowledge combined with materials needed to create a rocket propellant would probably be fatal.
A one letter change makes it ... baboons!
There now, that's better, isn't it...
Infuriate left and right
Effective range refers to the distance a bullet will travel with a given accuracy, not the actual distance the bullet will travel. You could probably hit a balloon at much greater than the effective range given that a balloon is a huge target and you would probably have multiple shots at the target.
The UK isn't the USA, you know - there's hardly any unrestricted airspace round here, and these things will add another set of hazards.
...
Soon there'll be nowhere left to fly
what it means is that as a culture, we have schools, buildings, institutions, clubs, games, pubs, (etc. ad nauseum) which date back a long way. It relates to tech in my instance as I'm writing this sat in a pub in Leicester built in 1116 (yes - eleven) with a wifi link - not an original feature ;p People were drinking there before they decided to eject the rubbish in Europe to the "New World".
What problem is this supposed to address ?
Remember, we already have 100% coverage for UHF television, from a large number of extremely tall towers. If it was simply a matter of getting internet transceivers up high, the infrastructure already exists to do it.
But it isn't.
Since Japanese are generally smaller than British, I wonder how they compare on mass carried?
Al Haig's company (yes, he really is In Charge) Sky Station has been talking about this for years now. Might sound a bit hokey, but it's just an extension of the Aerostat technology that's been used for the past decade to provide better radar coverage for the Gulf of Mexico. And, it's one heck of a lot cheaper to put up another balloon to replace a failure than to launch another satellite...
...-.-
The Local and Fed governments philosophy on managing and taxing of the radio spectrum and cable lines by selling to the highest bidder cable co. or wireless phone com. need to stop. The cable networks(public owned sections) should be gov owned and not privately run as in Municipal cable/broadband.
If there is a policy of renting the public owned lines to the cable company then it should go to the cable company with the best product for the best price(most affordable packages with broadband) and allowing individual public to pick and choose from a list of what options they want. As for the radio spectrum, the same policy should be in effect. Also Stop the selling our spectrum to the highest bidder. That only drives up the prices for all cellphones or future tech that relies on the radio spectrum. And also why is there stupid taxation of something we rely on for communication? Should we tax all speech ?
Sorry to say this but broadband is not expensive as some of you think. The cable and phone companies have ZERO competition thanks to CLUSTERFUCK FCC ZAR POWELL(brother of colin).
It's not so much the 'air-traffic-problem', more the increased likelyhood of an aircraft actually striking a tether with all the associated unpleasant consequences.
;)
Its worth noting the majority of G.A. traffic operates on average at 2,000ft and there is rather a lot of military traffic down to 150-200ft. Just this-afternoon, I watched 2 RAF Tucanos near my house skirting the local ATZ at about 300ft - thats only 5 1/4 miles from a major city centre. Now, I estimated them to be running at about 250kts and in loose formation. With there being two of them, that must increase the chance of a strike by 2.
One of these tethers must be damn near invisible, especially when the balloon is in the cloudbase. To be fair, from 3 miles away on a dull day, the Sutton Coldfield transmitter which is a thick metal structure extending over 1000' can be hard to spot and that thing is lit-up like a christmas tree! Its not too far-fetched that they would have a coming together sooner-or-later as in the early 90's the Daventry transmitter (a mast) had a guy-cable snapped by a BAe Hawk.
I'd rather forgoe the 'benefits of aerial-broadband' for sake of not having the sharp-end of an aircraft on my head
Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
i think third world countries have more important things to worry about than broadband connection. For starters : food, water system, sanitation, medical coverage. Suddenly, broadband isn't that important.
YOU SUCK BALLS!
Weather it would work or not is still up in the air. Air Traffic concerns cloud the issue. These current marketers appear to be filled with hot air. And if a project actully flies, I bet the company that hits the ground first will have a monopoly. They will see that the skys the limit on profits, and the rates they charge will ballon. I do believe that at least in the US, any real attempt to do this will become a lightning rod for counterversy.
Seems like a great idea, a neat way of overcoming the last-mile and bringing broadband to a lot more people in the UK.
IMHO, major obstacles stand in its way:
1) Cost. Each balloon may take millions (of UK pounds) to put up so any cost savings assume a sufficient subscriber base; and don't forget the satellite-TV style transceiver dish required for each customer site. Once the first one goes up, what's to stop existing providers dropping their prices to compensate?
2) Available bandwidth. Isn't unlikely that the system will "not slow down as more and more people use the service", especially as SkyLinc themselves state that the system is scaleable (i.e. why would it need to be scalable if performance never degraded with load?)
3) Weather. As every English-person knows, the weather in the UK can be erratic and extreme (for example, more tornadoes per unit area than anywhere in the world). Relying on an "antenna stabilisation system" may sound like a good idea, and it may even work, but who would believe it enough to spend the installation fee on it?
4) Coverage. Despite the article's optimistic "18 base stations" providing "total UK coverage, from densely populated towns to the remotest cottage in the Scottish Highlands" the SkyLinc website claims only "87% of UK SME business locations" for the same number of base stations - which I suspect counts out most remote locations.
5) CAA approval - SkyLinc might expect to make most money out of densely populated areas, but as these are often near airports what's the chance of CAA approval in all but a couple of test sites?
Of course, it serves the UK govt. to support this scheme and make encouraging sounds about it. At the very least it will stop most people from wondering why the govt. pushes 'broadband Britain' but allows a practical monopoly, paid for by the taxpayer, to slow the spread of broadband (hey, even remote cottages in the Scottish Highlands have BT phone lines).
Personally, I'm all for the idea, but I don't think it will ever get off the ground but if Guy Kewney says/implies/suggests it's a good idea then who am I to disagree! Hey, I even like the idea of having my own balloon to tow 'behind' my car in case of emergencies and traffic jams.
Neglecting air resistance (hah!) .50 BMG bullets are about 700 grains or 0.045 kg. Muzzle velocity is around 1000 m/s, for kinetic energy of 22500 J. This implies a .50 BMG bullet could reach an altitude of 51,000 m maximum (at which point it would have zero velocity). But of course, you can't neglect air resistance, especially with fast-moving objects as it increases faster than linearly with velocity.
.50 BMG for surface-to-surface use, which is generally around 25,000 feet surface range and maximum height of around 8000 feet. At maximum height, horitzontal velocity is down to 100 m/s.
.50 BMG for anti-aircraft use, which tops out at 7500 feet altitude (but within 400 yards horizontal distance).
.50 BMG will generally not reach higher than 10,000 feet, and will probably be fairly useless in engaging targets much more than 7500 feet high.
I've seen a study looking at the maximum trajectory of
Another study has shown that rifle bullets tend to reach a maximum altitude of about 9000 feet.
Finally, here there is a quote about an Army firing table for the Browning M2 with
So extrapolating, I think it is safe to say that
err, only the *cable cars* use cable drive. Have you seen the routes they take over hills? You could not have those routes with any other technology. But the *streetcars* muni subway and BART are all electric drive, along with most busses.
"Apologies for splattering this forum with my gun geekiness- you may now mod me into oblivion and beyond."
Just wait till that bullet comes down. Something other than "gun geekiness" will get splattered.
Look up! It's a bird. It's a plane. PLOOP! Nope, it's a broadband blimp with some packet loss.
(c) 2003 Irrelivant Postings, Inc.
The more advanced the technology, the more open it is to primitive attack
and because of that and problems when it's windy this is a much better solution:
SkyTower
I suppose time will tell. I'm putting my money on SkyTower.
http://tinyurl.com/3t236
Nah, it's just a bunch of hot air, Case is still the largest windbag.
I touch computers in naughty places
Or does DSL somehow work different in the UK?
Nope, and it doesn't work differently either.
water systems, sanitation and medical coverage are all problems which have a heavy information component, and in third world countries right now, the just about the only way to monitor and respond to that information is by having a trained human on the ground (which is why very little of it gets done.)
Now, imagine being able to monitor water quality and sewage processing flow remotely, and sending scarce resources to solve problems before they become cholera epidemics rather than after. Imagine being able to make every piece of modern medical information available to the nurse or medicine man who is the sole source of healthcare for a group of villages.
Broadband (or more importantly, wireless data access) is potentially a very big deal.
Don Negro
Perl 6 will give you the big knob. -- Larry Wall
I wouldn't get too worked up about people talking about shooting these things down. Think of all the other infrastructural things that people could go after and don't. The only ones likely to really try it would be true terrorists, and they tend to go after targets that cause casualties, not property damage.
the US are still trying to use walky talkies arent they?
Stevie Case is hot!
I Live in Leicester too which pub are you at? I might make it my new local if its got a WI-FI Link!!
There is no god
Or NYC, on 9/11; since cellphone base units need to be high up, a lot of them were mounted on top of one of the two towers, knocking out cellphone service. Add the power outage, damaged landline trunks, a load of Verizon telco switches and the huge surge in network usage, and communication was several degraded - an 802.16 (WiMax) base station on one of these things could have made a big difference. (An extra thousand voice channels, for example, or several dozen T-1s worth of data bandwidth.)
Any kind of disaster, really, natural or otherwise, could benefit - one of the biggest difficulties is coordinating rescue teams and resources, as well as collating survivor lists, especially when the communications infrastructure just collapsed! IIRC the US government bought a load of Iridium satellite phones for exactly this kind of contingency, but those are very expensive and take time to issue: much quicker to launch one big hot air balloon and use existing cellphones and laptops...
"""Only 18 balloons would be necessarily to blow BT out the water (according to the article). Is this on the horizon?"""
eheh.. reads more like this to me:
Only an 18 MPH wind would be necessarily to blow 18 ballons into the water (according to the article). Is this on the drink?"
First, it makes practical sense. The technology certainly exists. I ponder whether a fully autonomous wireless balloon (solar-powered, etc?) could replace the tethered concept.
Second, I'll bet BT is disinclined to allow the competition. I know for sure it would never (no pun intended) get off the ground in the USA. You can bet as soon as it reared it's beautiful head over here in the States, the big money telecoms will be beating two paths: one to Congree to dump FUD on the proposal, and another to Tom Ridge's office, warning of some fantastic and fictional security threat posed by balloons.
There's too much money invested in bad/old technology to allow this idea an easy birth, as much as I regret to acknowledge that reality. I pray to be proven wrong someday soon, though!
Mmmmmm... Bold, yet refreshing!
I remember when my Dad was telling me about this company called SkyStation in 1997 which was going to do the same thing. I doubted it would be possible. They still haven't delivered.
n k/forschungundentwicklung/studien/HAPS.pdf
Their current FAQ boasts, "When will the Sky Station system be available?
With flight testing commencing later this year, Stratospheric Telecommunications Service will commence with the first Sky Station platform deployment in 2005. Sky Station platforms will be implemented in accordance with user demand as expressed by responsible organizations in each country."
Enter the Wayback Machine for this same FAQ page:
1998 claims of launch in 2000
1999 claims of launch in 2002
2001 claims of launch in 2004
Stating that a test launch will occur "later this year" (hey, that makes it easier to update the page), and they're planning deployment in 2005. How the hell can they even know when they'll be deploying if after 7 years they still haven't done a test launch.
Let's not forget StratSat or the Japanese Airships for cell phone use. Comon', someone show me a non-artist rendored picture or active deployment with one of these. Until I see that, it's all vaporware left over from the dot-com sucker era. I'm not saying it's not possible. I'm just wondering about it being economically feasible and the unreliable in the atmosphere from ever-changing winds and weather conditions.
Here is that promised document from China talking about all these other blimp-type platforms (a sucker is born every minute):
http://www.bakom.ch/imperia/md/content/english/fu
Do I really need to go on, or would you like me to just do the obligtory BOOM - PoP - PHFFFTTTTTTFFZZZZZZZZZ
thought so :)
Well, at least the "Rubbish" in the "New World" aren't inbred blue bloods still sucking up to royalty.
A bolt-action 30-06, or even an autoloading 30-06 is NOT a controlled item in the US. I don't know where you are getting your information, but you might try actually doing some research.
The only thing "controlled" about a 30-06 is that if you are buying one from a dealer the dealer will have to fill in the appropriate forms.
www.eFax.com are spammers
You know, I was looking into Estes model rockets just now. They pretty much are among the only consumer grade projectile that i'm aware that can be used without a license, and without much in the of worry about arrest.
t /c diestes.pdf
But alas... they max range atleast for the level 1 model kits is typicaly about 300meters. Perhaps 500meters for a two stage model, and about 800meters for 3 stage models.
But, this is using their rocket engines.
"7. SIZE. My model rocket will not weigh more than 53 ounces (1500 grams) at liftoff and will not contain more than 4.4 ounces (125 grams) of propellant or 71.9 pound-seconds (320 N-sec) of total impulse. If my model rocket weighs more than one pound (453 grams) at liftoff or has more than 4 ounces (113 grams) of propellant, I will check and comply with Federal Aviation Administration regulations before flying."
http://www.commonwealth.net/rocketstore/estesca
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
That wasn't a balloon it was an alien spac.. oh, wait.
99 dreams I have had
In every one a red balloon
It's all over and I'm standin' pretty
In this dust that was a city
If I could find a souvenier
Just to prove the world was here...
And here is a red balloon
I think of you and let it go
Gruß,
Brief
Yeah, I could definitely see US planes shooting these out of the sky for our RIAA pals ;)
I will now redundantly add my name to the end of my post. You know, in case you forgot me or something.
That rumbling under your feet is poor old Ned Ludd spinning in his grave.
Guns are just another kind of technology. Next time you go to a major Linux events, ask the next dozen US Linux types you see about their gun collections. Be prepared to spend a lot of time hearing about arcane details of their personal munitions. Nobody has more enthusiasm about guns than a Libertarian geek.
With respect to anti-government feelings. . . you must be extremely new here. Haven't you ever read a discussion of . . . any stupid government action that affects technology and technologists? Plenty of anti-government feelings and the only people who care about DMCA are people involved in technology.
Unabomber types in caves don't have to worry about state-level super-DMCAs fucking up our ability to secure our computer systems.
Luddite? What are you smoking?
Tech Public Policy stuff
I presume for this to work you'll need to have line of site or something pretty close. This might cause problems for people in the lower floors of high rise buildings, on the floor steep valleys, next to tall buildings, wooded areas etc. So I think this might make the estimate of 18 for the whole of the UK a bit low. However they'd probably be a lot cheaper than masts, easier to relocate and still require fewer to be installed. But probably very good in sparsley populated areas or developing countries.
I'm more interested in a tower based infrastructure than balloon/blimp based. I currently have a system called Speedex, and I'm really happy with it. Its not as fast as land lines (capable of 1.5MB downstream, realistically its a good 768k). However, I pay $50/month.
I live in rural Indiana, and few people around here have broadband. Most arn't even in a coverage area. Wireless access works here.
I'd prefer the stuff be on towers rather than on these free floatering balls of gas. The towers will have to be much closer together, as they have a radius of 30-35 miles. The security of the transmitter is much better, being as its on a fixed object. It also doesn't pose a threat to aircraft save for helis.
-phish
you make me laugh
...just make sure you don't put these balloons near an airport
... I don't know. I think for the initial expense and maintenance they'd probably do better to get some industrial-strength wireless/fibre-optic combination going -- having such a combo close to terra firma would be easier to upgrade at any rate.
Yes, exactly. I have relatives who work in the airline industry, and have done the small prop thing more times than I want to remember. It might be okay, as you state, but me, I'm not so sure.
They'd have to be well away from flight paths, in rural areas, lit, marked
You're a step ahead of me anyway, so credit to you.
========================================
Death will come, and will have your eyes
-- Pavese
They claim to support 30k subscribers at >= 1mbit, non-over-subscribed, over an area of 2k miles^2. So that roughly means they think they can affordably push 30gbit over 25 miles. Hmm...
How many densely populated area have unrestricted low altitude free flight?
Half the US eastern seaboard had flight rules about a year ago that almost completely shutdown private fields due to restrictions on flight over cities and government installations.
If they can get this thing off the ground (pun intended), think about the synergy applications:
-Wireless networking service
-Wireless phone service
-Balloon digital radio
-Balloon "satellite" TV
-Air traffic control relay
-Mobile/Static radar stations
Also, at 1500m, is it feasible (not necessarily cost effective) to build an antenna tower up to it?
http://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
one of the biggest hurdles for schools in terms of getting internet into the class is the incredibly expensive prospect of wiring class rooms. If this idea takes off, and then we'll be floating internet balloons over campuses soon...
just a thought
dgd
WO02061971 http://l2.espacenet.com/espacenet/viewer?PN=WO0206 1971&CY=ep&LG=en&DB=EPD
We had an ice storm a few years back. It trashed the power/phone/cable systems. Things were down for quite a while in most places. But even if you lost the balloons, it looks like you could be up and running again in no time. Also seems like a good technology for developing nations with rugged topology, rivers, etc. Nice idea if you can get the costs down. Does Engineers Without Borders (http://www.ewb-isf.org/) know about it?
"Consensus" in science is _always_ a political construct.
some idiot flys his small plane into one. They also sound like good targets for a rifle. Oops, I forgot; the serfs and peasants are not allowed to have firearms over there.
Steep hills could just as easily be dealt with using good old fashioned rack railway technology, as used in the Swiss Alps etc. Might be problematic in the middle of a busy street though.
Interestingly enough, the very first line that was electrified in London was originally intended to have that same sort of cable drive, and the electric trains had many problems negotiating the slope in the tunnel, so much that the line was eventually abandoned.
But the LU still beat the NYC Subway in both steam and electric!
Nice work. :)
There is no excellent beauty that hath not some strangeness in the proportion. -- Francis Bacon
http://www.21stcenturyairships.com/
Peace,
Ex-MislTech
google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"
Though a tad more costly, the rarified air at 67,000 ft .
is wind free year round
http://www.21stcenturyairships.com/aerial.htm
Peace,
Ex-MislTech
google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"
Here you go: some pictures
No - they're just inbred and suckin' up to papa..
not too many blizzards or hurricanes in th'north cockle
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
I'm sure you are not to know, but it is actually now Illegal to defend your own property on private land in the U.K.
What is the world coming to?
I often wonder that if we travelled back in time to speak to all the brave souls who fought and died to protect our freedom in the second world war, and we told them that England would have gone to S#!t by the end of the same century, would we have influenced the outcome of the war?
Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
no, wait ...
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
You know it's funny you'd mention about the rapid prototype technology or as you put it "3d printers." I was just looking at the patents situation there. It's sick. There's one patent that is incredibly vague that was just renewed in an even broader wording. There's no real invention there, they just patent the whole concept of using printers with glue without even beginning to tell you how they engineer, for example the print heads.
It's quite simple technology really. Instead of ink, you use glue. The only reason we don't have these everywhere is that they're being restrained by sick intellectual property laws that need to be put in check.
and the fact the baloon has a fiber cable tied to it, so the signal going down from the "bird" is much more reliable.
Modesty is one of life's greatest attributes