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Chinese Moon Base by 2012 - or 2006?
apsmith writes "Former congressman and House Science chairman Robert S. Walker has written some rather striking conclusions about Chinese intentions in space over the next few years, based on information received for the recent Commisison on the Future of Aerospace. Walker is convinced the Chinese are going all-out for a permanent settlement on the Moon within 10 years; apparently some closer to the situation in Japan think the first landing will be in only 3-4 years. Meanwhile the Economist says IT people are starting to focus on space as the next high-tech venue. Fortunately, despite NASA's neglect, we do have a few private missions to the Moon in the works."
The russians never pulled this off, but maybe a communist red flag next to the stars and stripes might knock the Americans off their high horse, or at least, wake them up. The Chinese are also willing to accept loss of life in this pursuit, so it wouldn't suprise me if they had something going bt 2010.
I'd just be happy to see Homo Sapiens someplace other than Earth.
2001 has come and gone. Still , watch out for large black rectangular prisms once you start building.
Or maybe they don't need to? I for one have no desire to live on the moon, or see the costs of getting there subsidized by my taxes.
Why should this be considered a problem if non-US people plan to get to the Moon ?
I thought this was like Antartic : a Free (as in... uh?) place.
Trolling using another account since 2005.
mining materials from the moon is going to be more expensive than raiding Western Russia and mining in Siberia then shipping it back to China.
It's expensive to live there, to ship people there, and to experiment there (what to experiment on I will never know).
I can't see a financial justification to use it as a start point for Mars missions when there is nothing of use on Mars (even if there is water and "life").
Let's have our people suffer and wither away in the wastelands of undeveloped China and build a moon base!
Why did we stop going to the moon?
.. huh?
I touched it, I'm done..
I've seen countless reasons on why we should base to the moon but have never understood the reasoning for manning to mars before we've settled our closest orbiter.
-M-
"Life is all about strategy, mathematics and psychological perceptiveness."
a good Chinese restaurant on the moon will fix that little no-food or water problem and make NASA's job so much easier....
You will have to pry my proprietary software $$$ from my cold dead hands!
I think this is great. Yes, I have the typical reservations many will have here (human rights, poverty in China, etc.). However, I support this 100%.
I really think space is not something that should be done alone by a nation, though. I think we should see how we can help or team up with China in some way. It could be the common bond that finally helps us get over this mini-me cold war that we have going on with them.
Space exploration should no longer exist as a competitive sport. Write your representatives and let them know that you support US cooperation with China in space.
"If you want to improve, be content to be thought foolish and stupid." - Epictetus
Personally, I'm hoping that only #1 will happen. Competition is good. See what's happened since we lost an 'opponent' in the space race? We've grown complacent. Having another space will be good for just about everything (national pride, the tech sector, the economy in general, innovation, etc).
I could order food from their moonbase and it will still get to my house on earth faster than from the restaurant down the street.
Trolling is a art,
I don't care who goes to the moon, as long as someone does. People actually love this kind of stuff, but they're easily distracted. Having a human presence on the moon might get enough people interested again to kickstart the industry.
It is said that the Chinese take the long view of things. Perhaps it is true. Anyway, they still have an authoritarian govt, and as such probably still want to conquer the world. A moon base might let them try it -- recall Heinlein's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", and how "interesting" (per ancient Chinese curse) it might be to be able to throw rocks that can cause as much damage as A-bomb explosions, without the leftover radioactivity.
Anyone not familiar with this Heinlein tome, and who has an interest in the next century should read it.
/.ers just waiting to rebuke this claim, knock yourselves out. Democracy cannot fight gravity, nor stop a 1/2km bolder travelling at Mach 33 coming down through the atmosphere.
Whoever has the moon, has the Earth. If anyone is thinking of entering an expansionist phase, it would behoove them to set up shop there. They are at the top of the gravity well, we're at the bottom.
I am sure there are
I like to maintain a positive outlook, but that is much easier with hindsight rather than foresight.
]3
ps - I didn't have anyone in mind when I mentioned entering an expansionist era - if you associated the remark with any particular geopolitical entity, that was your own doing!
I think china needs the moon to some of their billions of people!
While competition is good fun when it comes to sport, it is about time the West, in particular the USA stopped believing that every time another entity tries to do something newer, bigger or better that such a step is looked upon as a threat. China has never attacked a Western nation and is trying to open up - in particular since SARS. So, we should be supporting and encouraging them. We have worked pretty well with the Russians, that has paid off with their help since Columbia. So we have learned that if you corner the fox he will bite, but if you pamper him he will lick.
O'WONDERWe're working on it.
The reds are going for a permanent settlement on the moon? No problem. Reagan had it all worked out years ago. ;^)
If life is like civilization, as soon as the Chinese make it, our entire society will crumble!
Since we have about 4 Future Technologies already, I beileve we should launch a full scale attack on China, take our scientific research down to 0% to collect as much gold as possible, and start building our own.
While we are at it, we probably shouldn't ask for a UN vote, we will surely fail, and lose there too.
What would be America's best way to win? We've already secured some oil resources, we need to build a harbor!
http://use.perl.org
Almost anyone who is a technophile was weaned on stories of colonies on the moon and mars by the new millenium. NASA, for better or for worse, never fullfilled those dreams. But now that some of those technophiles are all grown up and have a billion and a half dollars, it only makes sense that they would start to use their new-found power to realize the dreams of their youth.
As a fellow dreamer, I can't think of a better outcome to the dotcom-dotbomb cycle than the kick-off of a vibrant commercial space industry. (Well, maybe the immediate cessation of world poverty and the industrial destruction of the environment. But the chances of that happening even with a couple of motivated dotcom dreamers at the helm, are probably close to nil. At least space doesn't have too much in the way of entrenched powers that prefer the status quo.)
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
As we saw when the Europeans started work on their own GPS rival, the US Govt get quite tetchy when they see possible weakening of their influence in space.
If China do press ahead with this plan, we should expect tantrums from the US.
As a Westerner who sadly recognizes the fact that his society has abandoned space exploration and colonization, I'm more than happy for the Chinese lunar colonists. At least some members of homo sapiens will get to leave the rock.
But as a Westerner who's read Heinlein, I'm pretty sure that sooner or later, those guys are going to end up more free and more happy than their government could ever imagine possible, even in its worst nightmares.
You go, Chinese guys. More power to ya.
Heinlein was a starry-eyed optimist to think it could ever happen on Earth, but he had a valid point on Luna - any resource-rich, low-population, but otherwise harsh environment practically necessitates the development of certain cultural norms.
To the rest of the world, this is just one more triumph of the United States that nobody else has caught up to after 35 YEARS! The second country to land on the moon would still look big in the eyes of the rest of the world, and more-so if they build a moon base (something not even the USA has done).
On a different note, I'm going back to school for aerospace engineering. When touring the department, I found that they are having record enrollment in both their graduate and undergraduate programs. Kinda make's one wonder how many of them (like me) are switching from the computer industry...
science is a religion
One of the most interesting is: "Let's Challenge China to a Space Race"
http://spacepolicy.org/page_mw0100.html
But there are a ton of others, all very well written on many aspects of the space program's flaws, successes, interaction with congress, other countries' programs, etc.
Stop the Slashdot Effect! Don't read the articles!
One of the benefits of the Apollo program wasn't just the science done on the moon, but all of the technological innovations that had to be made in order for it to happen. Sure some of those innovations are relatively mundane (like Tempurpedic Mattresses). However, it also helps you build a huge amount of expertise in aerospace and electronics - industries that would help China both commercially and miliatarily.
1. Build a base on the moon
2. ???
3. ???
4. ???
5. profit!
Seriously, a moonbase is really tough to justify right now. There are all the enlightened arguments about science etc. but wouldn't it be much nicer if we first developed life support and automated mining/manufacturing technologies here on Earth, and then went up once it becomes economical to do so? We would even do more science that way in the long run.
This is a nation which still hasn't launched a person into space, let alone have the capacity to go to the moon soon. At the time of the Apollo missions, the US was spending 1% (http://members.aol.com/dsportree/VH04.htm) of the GNP on NASA. The Soviets were probably spending about the same amount of dough. That's was 6 billion in 1967 dollars, or about 32 billion dollars today. Can China afford this? I'm dubious, especially given the current world economy.
Tack on the expenses both nations had (US with Mercury & Gemini, USSR with the various Vostok missions), and the experience China will have to gain... I'd wager on a 2012 landing and 2020 at best for a permanent base. It will take many heavy-lifting flights to get stuff to the moon, and just one disaster to set back the whole timeframe.
Further, the natural Chinese economic advantage (lots of cheap labor), is of little value in the aerospace realm. Sure, you can have folks using picks and shovels on a dam along side modern construction equipment. But on a Saturn V/N-1 type rocket? Not likely.
Can they do it? Sure. So could ESA, Japan and probably a half dozen other nations like Australia, Brazil or India. Will they? Probably, they want the bragging rights. But by 2006? No way.
46. The Hobo smiles, his eyes glaze over, and he burps. "Beware the man who has lived longer than the Wasteland."
I disagree with many, many aspects of modern Chinese life, but there are some factual errors in your post that need correcting.
There are only a few reasons to go to the Moon that I can see.
1. Scientific. These are pretty weak. Some nice radio and optical telescopes could be set up on the dark side. However, the next Space Telescope will be placed at Lagrange Point 2. That's pretty clean from Earthly interference and cheaper than the Moon. Exploration? Really, what are we going to find that will be useful that can not be done robotically?
2. Commercial. The solar cell idea is just stupid. Stick with Nuclear here on earth. Cheap, clean, and practically infinite. Maybe, someday, fusion will displace it. If so, H3 mining might be a winner for being on the Moon. I'm sure that will drive the Moon environmentalists up a tree. (hee hee). I can just see the protestors and signs now, "Stop Strip Mining the Moon! It's destroying the view from the earth for Spotted Owls." If we could ever make the per pound (screw you metric guys) cost to high orbit cheap enough... vacations would be a good reason to put up a colony. Just look at Vegas and Cancun. There's some serious scratch.
3. Political. That's why we (the US) went the first time. That's what the Chinese are up too. The US may have to do it just to keep the Chinese from being the only ones there. National pride can be an odd thing.
But the biggest political reason will be to get the fuck off Earth. That may be a while. Or a well funded cult may be the first to go. Too bad the Hal Bop guys are gone. It's easier to catch a lift on a Comet from the low gee of the Moon.
www.bannination.com Two things float to the top he
I don't see how something like this is very practical, beyond the research involved to complete the mission. Mining would be too expensive, so there goes that idea. Last time I checked: there are still a few open spaces on Earth, so the moon isn't needed due to overcrowding. Finally, it has been proven over and over that making the trip into space is still quite dangerous so there's no reason to think there would be a high volume of missions taking place.
My opinion: All the US (or the UK, Japan, the EU, Australia, etc etc) needs to do right now is rig up a space elevator and an orbital solar/microwave power station. Whatever country or collection of countries pulls this off will be able to play in space all they want, sell the experience to others (step 3: profit) AND get awfully cheap power. Not an easy task, but certainly more practical and IMHO much more beneficial than a moon base.
Get this rolling along and pull off a moonbase with more ease and better resources. I mean, it would be a real kicker to conduct research (the moonbase) off a profitable operation (elevator and power) instead of dipping exclusively into taxes.
In my opinion, this is a distinct possibility. If they have the willpower to do it, they WILL pull it off without US help or competition. Personally, I hope this or some collaborated(sp?) effort is the case because I really want to see more people in space and the expansion of the human race beyond the thin atmosphere between us and the rest of the universe. Granted the moon is just a baby step (and we're talking a baby atom here) on the cosmic scale of things, but we need to start somewhere, and if the currently most active space program on the planet will not do it, then let someone else. We ARE all human here anyway.
Along these lines, there have been some other posts to this story about the financial problems and the probable lack of commercial return from these ventures. I say to that, Who the hell CARES??? This is the future we are talking about here. This is the possible expansion of the human race. Personally, if I could be around in 20,000 years to see it, I would really like for the Galaxy to be much like Isaac Asimov wrote in his Robot Series and Foundation Series. There is still all of the good and bad of human nature, but we will be free of these earthly bounds and able to go just about anywhere we please.
Not to sound cheesy (and Trek-y) but Space really is the final frontier, and I think we (as a species) need to get off our lazy earth-bound asses and get out there to see what we can find. We really need to work harder to make science fiction into science reality, IMHO.
Of course, I really am just a clueless, idealistic dreamer, but perhaps if there were more people like me and less business-y, money grubbing, power hungry jerks in the world then perhaps we would already be out to Mars and on our way to Jupiter, Saturn, or even Proxima-Centauri...
Sorry for the huge digression and the rant, but whenever I see stories like this and people putting down those who try (not the parent post, but others in this story) it makes me a bit hot-headed (well...the beer helps too).
"Knowledge is power" - Sir Francis Bacon
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Albert Einstein
I think the human race needs to take those quotes a bit more to heart. We need both more "small steps for man" and more "giant leaps for mankind".
Again, sorry for the rant. Goodbye Karma.
"Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
That Chinese will be the official language of the moon? and can you image the extremely slo-mo ping pong games that would be played?
From excellent karma to terible karma with a single +5 funny post...
Will they all soon say "Made on the Moon" ? ;p
I recommed the article U.S. 'negation' policy in space raises concerns abroad. Space is the next frontier for US military dominance. NASA may have been gutted, but now the government is realizing it can enhance its control over the world if it has space. This means denying everyone else access to space - so I won't be surprised if the US govt starts painting the Chinese (dirty commies! watch out! coughbullshitcough) space program as a serious military threat.
(Missile shield? Missile shield? Hell, son, we need orbital weapons platforms all around the world! We need to be able to shut down military operations by rogue states and terr'ists anywhere on the globe! Hot damn, we need nukes on the moon!)
Karma: T-rexcellent.
Have you already forgotten Tianeman square? Communist China is a brutal, repressive, murderous regime.
Ever been to China ? I worked there. The Chinese are doing what the Chinese have always done: been overwhelmed and absorbed the invader. Time after time, century after century.
Believe it or not there ARE problems with US and European "democracy"- like we don't have it.
Until you understand and see that nothing will change. No compulsion, just look at what folks like the EFF Amnesty and others are saying.
If they get a lunar base, bank on it that it will be heavily militarized and its top priority will be to learn how to drop rocks on American cities
How much notice would you get ? Quite long enough to launch a retaliatory strike before the rock even arrives. You read too much Heinlein.
I always considered the moon landing an achievement for the entire human race.
Acknowledged that Americans had the technology, supplied the funding, and risked their people in pursuit of the world-wide dream of getting to the moon.
Americans have been too the moon, but much more importantly humans have been to the moon.
Dragon Action Figures
You might not want to live on the moon. Your kids might not want to live on the moon. But if the human race doesn't get some skills in living away from this little blue bubble, we're not going to be able to:
We will need to be able to live away from the Earth at some point in the future. It's going to cost money sometime, but we have the technology to give it a try now. To learn from our mistakes and do better next time.
It shouldn't matter what country does it. However, if we're going down the "but that's my tax dollar" path, I'd rather my tax dollars went towards space exploration rather than some stupid war in Iraq.
it's not about the karma, it's about the whuffie
Err...that may well be how it was presented, but I think you'll find that the Russians had quite a lot to do with the defeat of Germany. Possibly more than any other nation (a hard thing for me to say, as I'm British), and they certainly earned their rest. And the scientists that helped with the American space programme were also captured German rocket scientists.
Cheers,
Ian
Yeah, show me the jails filled with political prisoners in America. Now go to China and say the government sucks.
Show me the tanks that rolled over the anti-war protestors in San Francisco. I want to see the footage. I have video clips of the massacre at Tianeman square. I want to compare the two.
Show me the forced segregation camps in America. I want to compare it with the planned cities in China where you are required to work, but not allowed to live.
Show me the forced sterilizations in America because you're poor. I want to compare it with the Amnesty International reports of forced abortions and sterilizations in China.
Show me the prisons filled with Atheists or Muslims in America. I want to compare it with the prisons in china filled with Fulan Gong.
It's really a shame there isn't a mod in slashdot for total idiot.
China IS a gray distopian soviet nightmare that murders its own people.
The United States has provided the greatest freedom and prosperity of its people than any other nation or civilization in the history of the planet. If it isn't utopia, it's as close as you're going to get on this world.
Get a dose of reality and understand that the culture and civilization embodied by the United States is the most morally superior culture and civilization in the history of the planet.
You can tell a great deal about the character of a man by observing those who hate him.
Good points, however:
1) We have more than one very technically feasible plan for a mass driver, including one that we (US Gov) built proof-of-concept large scale models of. I will have to look up the acronym. The technology is more on par with firearms rather than spaceflight. That, and the technology is six times more powerful on the moon. It would be arrogant to assume that no one else can come up with plans on their own, if not much better plans. And there is no shortage of rocks on the Moon to throw.
2) You only have Mutual Assured Destruction if the other party believes it. If you don't believe in it, then it won't stop you. Probability never stops the gambler, it just decreases their ante.
So who has more to gain?
The American army is not invincible. Bush is pouring money down the toilet like it was going out of fashion. Look up the cost of each American cruise missile vs. the cost of Iraqi buildings. Look up the news item regarding how the Pentagon misplaced a trillion dollars. Look at the U.S. economy.
A person I know works with a major U.S. military contractor, on a vehicle project, in the 20 ton range. These things have huge pneumatic shocks; almost no natural force on Earth can touch 'em. And just the other day, they had to scrap a $2,000,000 vehicle because some asshole American grunts were joyriding the fucking thing off a cliff, for kicks. The troopers who pulled this stunt got off scot-free.
America is going to go down, hard, if they don't shape up. Their commanders don't understand cost-effective warfare. The Roman Empire fell because it alienated its satellite states, misused the legions, and because its leaders were mad with power and decadence. It can happen again.
The United States Government's Department of Homeland Security has announced that Robert Heinlein is now wanted under the U.S. Patriot Act for sponsoring terrorism. His idea of using the moon as a base to attack Americans will not be tolerated.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
Hmm... interesting theory. So you're saying that the moon is a means for a Chineese attack on the U.S.?
You do realize that the Pacific ocean is easier to traverse than the distance between the earth and the moon?
You do also realize that the U.S. has demonstrated the effectiveness of nuclear submarines as a "last strike" deterrant?
Do you think it is possible that rather than nuking the U.S., the Chineese goverment wants to use this for genuine research, some nationalist bragging rights and as an asset to build or develop international relations?
they have strange ideas about how to fix the overpopulation problem..
Great food, but no atmosphere.
(rimshot)
Thanks, I'll be here all week...
All China has to do is be able to drop rocks on American cities. The threat will make us dance with them.
How is your concern any diferent to that of anyone else in the world whilst there is the current American administration with a view that the US can do what it wants, when it wants, to whomever it wants through the threat of military force?
Shouldn't we all be dancing together anyway? What has happened to diplomacy and negotiation in an attempt to improve everybody's lot?
It would mean more to the lives of their citizens and eventually the world if they spent the money on bioengineering, medicine, genetic modification of crops, training their people in science and engineering, IT, and such. Space is a less efficient expenditure of resources, despite how cool and prestigious it is.
For two /. peers: Imeperator, arvindn
And what could the moon possibly do for an expansionist nation?
1) Return on Investment (ROI)
For an amount of capital, X. You have a base, a mass driver(s), and a powerplant(s) on the moon. Then, you control the Earth. There are many natural phenomena that distort our perceptions of near Earth space. A nice big Coronal Mass Ejection one day, and when the protons clear, there are 30 giant bolders in orbit awaiting a nudge to start their 60 second descent to the surface. Would the last act of Washington be to destroy the US in order to maintain our principles, by slamming the agressor nation before we're crushed from orbit? I don't think so.
Until we have the technology to make transport to and from the moon cheap, it's a useless pile of rock.
We? We who? I hope you mean We as a species and aren't excluding anyone else's scientists from having a good idea first.
I'm not some paranoid recluse, BTW, think of this as one big game of Alpha Centauri, Axis&Allies, or whatever. It's perfectly good sense.
]3
Actually, they can't. Their ICBM fleet has nowehre the range that the Soviet/US missiles have. The Chinese nuclear weapons were developed to deter their main ex-enemy, the Soviet Union. In fact, they almost came to a nuclear war in the late 1960's over some clashes on the Amur.
The Soviets also considered a nuclear pre-emptive strike on their nuclear weapons plant before their first test.
In the meantime the PLA's missiles have not been extended in range save for a very few missiles. They do have some Submarine base missiles but that would be tracked/destroyed by the vastly superior US Navy. They only have 3 or 4 subs.
The US government's assesment of Chinese nuclear capability is classified but there are lost of info on the net. They do pack a punch but their delivery range is very limited.
The dangers of excessive individualism are nothing compared to the oppressiveness of excessive collectivism
At my Washington office a few weeks ago, I met with a visiting Japanese parliamentarian who specializes in science and technology issues... In his view, the Chinese would be on the moon within three to four years.
parliamentarian
this is the only evidence he offers that China is even thinking of going to the moon. some random Chinese dude? well, I'm convinced, let's start a space race.
Bob Walker man must be a real patriot to be so concerned about the plight of America's space prestige. Who is this great thinker? oh wait... Bob Walker is a corporate lobbyist. For who? For these guys. Nice list of clientelle. I wonder if any of those people would benefit from increased public paranoia about a foreign space program?
-sweatyb
It breaks my pluginses, my precious!
They'd better stay well fucking away from my piece of Lunar real estate! Or they can pay rent...
This was a red herring when it was first brought up, and it's a red herring now. The amount of money spent on space research and space flight is miniscule next to the amounts of money spent on social programs and "defense". It's a drop in the bucket, and tends to have quite an impressive return on investment. (All that R&D NASA did paid off here on earth too.)
There are reasons to support space flight, and reasons not to, but "stealing the bread from the mouths of hungry babes" ain't one of 'em.
--grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
Bruce Sterling wrote an interesting Wired column about the budding Cold War between India and China. Sterling reminds us that India is also interested in a space program, largely for the same reasons America was: symbolism and prestige.
As Pakistan weakens, India is starting to view China as its principal rival for South Asian hegemony. "India and China are comers with a lot to prove to the world, and especially to each other," Sterling writes. "Nuclear India versus nuclear China is Kennedy versus Kruschev, and Reagan versus Gorbachev, all over again. Now, as then, a space race is a sexy alternative to nuclear annihilation.
"China has openly declared its desire to colonize the moon. The world's most populous nation is unlikely to build lunar settlements, but that's not the point. China's motive lies not in constructing a lunar Hong Kong, but rather in luring India into a loud public competition. Later this year, if all goes as planned, China will become the third country to send a citizen into space. An orbiting taikonaut will be even more impressive if American shuttles are stuck in their hangars while the misnamed International Space Station limps along with a skeleton crew."
Sterling's conclusion sent a shudder of surprising revulsion through me: "A decade after the end of the Cold War, good old-fashioned space programs still matter. Not for exploration's sake, but to settle new cold wars. If you doubt it, imagine this scenario: It's 2029, and a lunar mission lands at Tranquillity Base. A crew of heroic young Indians - or Chinese - quietly folds and puts away America's 60-year-old flag. If the world saw that on television, wouldn't the gesture be worth tens of billions of rupees or yuan? Of course it would."
"Your kids might not want to live on the moon."
[The Moon] ain't the kind of place to raise your kids. In fact it's cold as hell. And there's no one there to raise them if you did...
+ G to tha Izzo, A to tha Tizee, Talking Giz-oat, Ya'll Bettah Feel Me... +
Are you aware that the US now has a larger percentage of its population in jail than any other nation including China? China was the largest percentage for decades, but just in the last couple years the US pulled ahead. We're currently neck-and-neck with the Chinese in the race to jail the largest percentage of our populations. I guess that's one race we're winning with the Chinese...
I did not design this game/I did not name the stakes/I just happen to like apples/And I am not afraid of snakes-AniD
Try again. It's not NASA's neglect, it's your neglect. You that are US citizens... You told Congress that the money spent on NASA was better spent on social services and defense, among other things. If you want a strong space program, tell your congressmen!!!
You (Congress) funds big NASA programs, and NASA staffs up and leases/builds facilities to support it. Then Congress takes away half the annual funding, thinking they can push the costs out. In fact, the G&A costs (people, facilities) remain constant, so extending projects increases overall costs. Then Congress wails about cost over-runs. And don't get me started about the plethora of NASA facilities in powerful congressman's back yards that do nothing but generate local revenue.
Watching what's happened to NASA from the inside (Johnson Space Center in Houston and Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville), it's a sad site to see. Lots of really good people have left, fed up with the lack of mission and bureaucracy. Thank god there's still a dedicated few left.
A clever person solves a problem, A wise person avoids it. -Einstein
If you actually don't believe there is any sort of God, why do you care if other people do?
The same reason Jews cared about the Spanish Inquisition, and Christians cared about Muslim invaders. The ruling class will attempt to force its religion on all its subjects. The severity of the ruling class's reaction to refusal to believe is completely unpredictable, and in the case of the USA, becoming more severe every day. Our ATTORNEY GENERAL is so goddamn puritan that he couldn't stand to be pictured with a fucking STATUE of a woman with a naked breast. Yes, he's an idiot, but he could roll out the FBI and get all atheists arrested and systematically destroyed if he wanted.
THAT is why we care about other people believing in God - because they care about us NOT believing in it.
I thought we already had.
Along these lines, SpaceDaily carries an excellent opinion piece today: "The Failure of NASA: And A Way Out"
Here's the theme: NASA's human space flight efforts have been going downhill since the end of the big Apollo budget bubble (1966) and need to be replaced by an agency that concentrates on enabling private sector human space flight.
Best quote: " After wasting three decades (and a perfectly good Cold War), frustrating the dreams of a whole generation of space enthusiasts, and spending hundreds of billions of dollars, NASA's net achievement is a space station that has no definable purpose except to serve as a destination for shuttle flights.
We would not need the shuttle missions if we did not have the station, and we would not need the station if we did not need something for the shuttles to do. The entire human spaceflight program has thus become an exercise in futility."
I take this with a grain of salt: There's money to be made, maybe, doing things in LEO and on the moon, but we'll still need someone to fund and operate the necessary but unprofitable initial human explorations of the planets. An analogy might be drawn to the efforts directed by Prince Henry the Navigator.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
that some other country wastes their money to figure out that the moon is one big rock that is pretty much as useless. we've already gone there.... we found rocks.... why waste more $$$ untill we actually have a USE for it beyond proving that we can go there. Sure, your average space geek will say that we should continue to explor space. But they forget that exploration costs $$$ that really should not be needlessly be throw at exploration when we have more than enough problems down here right now (did anyone happen to catch THIS which tends to overshadow the need for planting a flag on more planets. so yippie... the chinese want to go to the moon.... let em.... let them own the whole moon, let them put a big red star on it.
-Cnik
...they'll have a rocket that can send a man to the moon, but not a nuke to NY?
"Our Population?"
My understanding is that an exceeding number of "American" inmates are actually somebody else's population, which is to say, illegal aliens.
Of course, we've got that whole tradition of opening our doors to "wretched refuse yearning to breathe free" thing going on, so I guess it's OK.
Which brings up the question: How many poor people fleeing oppression in their respective homelands have sought (and found) refuge in America versus China? How many people, citing oppression, have fled (or tried to flee) America versus China?
See, problem is, you and I sitting in our offices and tippy-tapping away on our computers know jack squat about oppression, only that talking about it passes time online and in coffee-houses.
25 years ago I thought like you did; heck, I even convinced myself that *I* was oppressed; it was all kinda sexy and cool and martyr-y and stuff. But I travelled a bit, met a bunch of different type of people, took on some large responsibilities, and came to the realization that America Ain't So Bad, and many's the place that's a Lot Worse. I felt lucky, and out of that grew thankful.
Still, it's fun to complain about stuff, ennit? Even more fun, bear in mind, to be able to complain about stuff...
Unfortunately, possession is 9/10ths of the law. The only way to prevent someone else from establishing sovereignty onver something is to be there yourself.
The russians never pulled this off, but maybe a communist red flag next to the stars and stripes might knock the Americans off their high horse, or at least, wake them up.
No flag, but they did have the first landing, 2 rovers, and 24 unmanned probes which even returned samples.
In a lot of respects they beat us pretty well on the moon. I think the technical details of unmanned rovers and returning samples all remotely are very cool.
..becuase I am the proud owner of 2 whole acres of the moon.
What do you think taxes are going to be like....or am I behind already?
"Wernher Von Braun" by Tom Lehrer (as recorded in 1965):
(spoken introduction)
What is it that put America in the forefront of the nuclear nations? And
what is it that will make it possible to spend $20 billion of your money
to put some clown on the moon? Well, it was good old American know-how
that's what, as provided by good old Americans like Dr. Wernher Von
Braun.
(breaks into song)
Gather round while I sing you of Wernher Von Braun
A man whose allegiance is ruled by expedience.
Call him a Nazi, he won't even frown
"Ha, Nazi schmazi", says Wernher Von Braun.
Don't say that he's hypocritical
Say rather that he's apolitical.
"Once the rockets are up who cares where they come down,
That's not my department" says Wernher Von Braun.
Some have harsh words for this man of renown
But some think our attitude should be one of gratitude.
Like the widows & cripples in old London town
Who owe their large pensions to Wernher Von Braun.
You too may be a big hero
Once you've learnt to count backwards to zero.
"In German or English I know how to count down,
Und I'm learning Chinese" says Wernher Von Braun.
be for here or to go ?
Sig Heil: Scumerica - Land of the Free* (* 18+, valid papers, health insurance, some restrictions apply)
I give them about 3 years before they've either made good on their threats and actualy seem to be going after this goal, or are shown to have simply issued another boast.
If in 3 years they have indeed begun the initiative to colonize the moon, you can be certain the US will get off it's collective ass and either infuse NASA with massive amounts of bucks and initiative, or simply kill them and replace them with a new goverment entity to acomplish the same goal.
there are two reasons for this.. A: if china sets up a weapons base on the moon we would be at a serious disadvantage the moment they develop anti-ICBM type defenses. Although this isnt near to happening now... it is an inevitability as far as the progression of tech in nearly all major societies.
The second reason... The US has one of the greatest attitudes possesed by man. Out right jealousy. If they do it, then we damn well WILL do it too AND better. Who cares about the expense... it's important simply because it is.
The reason NASA is grounded right now ISNT because they fucked up.... it's cause they fucked up and dont have much of a purpose thats beneficial to the miltary/social/economical intrests of the US corporations or populace. Put china upstairs.... and you can garentee our space program will geta shot in the arm well beyond anything we could imagine about the star wars project or otherwise.
nothing like good old economic/political rivalry to get the inovation engines running.
--Idiots, Every single one of YOU, A flaming mass of conglomerated morons, hey wait a second, isnt that how RAID works?
If anyone can do it, it will be the Chinese, but I doubt it will be that soon. I think rather that the time estimate is more of a way to spur the US into action.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
I will probably get a redundant score for this but screw it. America has done some good things with their space technology so far, and I hope despite our current leadership and their war-like ways that it will continue to be peaceful. But America if it is going to stay an economic power, and a world power can not ignore the possibility of being leap-frogged in space. The Russians weren't up to the challenge, and now others stand a good chance of proving that we are not. Space is a true testing ground of our engineering skills, and creativity.
America stunned the world by landing on the moon in the sixties. Think about that, in just the 1930's most Americans didn't have electricity or own a refrigerator, but in just about forty years we landed on the moon. We pushed our technology, and our engineering capabilities to reach out into space and touch something other than the earth. Now we can't even do that. Read Walker's statements in the above article and he confirms it. I can't help but think, how could we lose this capability in only 35 years, less than the time it took for us to go from a country without power to a world power?
Most of the technology in Sci-fi regarding the moon (2001 anyone?), we know to be possible in theory. If the Chinese get to the moon, and if they get their base built they will be the ones who either prove or disprove those theories. I can only hope they have the creativity to sustain their own research while there. I used to think if we got there we would start to find new ways to use or technology and develop more while we are there, now I am not so certain. But if NASA keeps going at things the way they are, then we will never know, but we will have more HBO's and MTV's than you can shake a stick at. As much as I love modern entertainment, it does not push our creativity.
Lastly, we need to have a presence there. As does the EU, Japan, India, Russia and China. It needs to be a free space, and be represented by all nations. It is the ultimate high ground. I saw someone else post about Heinlen, and quote Lazurus Long. I will now quote a different book, "What will they do? They have no weapons. Will they throw rocks at us?" (The Moon is a Harsh Mistress) Yes that is exactly what they could do, and probably would. I imagine the damage a four or five ton rock could do dropped from orbit as far out as the moon. Not the best of pictures right there.
Well that's the end of my rant. Basically I feel that damn it I want my country to be better than it is. And we keep giving up on that which could make us great, and maybe even memorable in history.
TANSTAAFL
An aerospace industry commissioner recommends investing in developing aerospace technologies. Surprise surprise.
Of course it should. Haven't you ever heard of colonisation? Do we want china to own the property on the moon? Of course we don't. The moon is as american as apple pie and by gum, it doesn't belong to no goddamned commies!
Not quite.
It took a Saturn V to get 3 men, a LEM, miscellaneous equipment (cameras, sample boxes, etc) and all the associated life support systems (water, air, food) to the moon. Then they also had to have equipment to get them back to earth (a large and heavy heat shield, for one thing).
According to this page, the weight of the Service Module and the Command Module was about 63,500 pounds. You can fit a lot of cargo in to that.
Malcolm solves his problems with a chainsaw,
And he never has the same problem twice.
It always sounded to me like he said "a". Maybe it's just the radio voice. That's a better thing to make fun of anyway. He's doing his big quote for history and shit, and he says it with the exact same modulation as if he were noting the time they flushed the toilet. "That'sahhhh one small stepforman... onegiantleap... formankind." I mean, sure he's a test pilot, but Shatner could do better than that.
2006? Maybe they're using the chinese calendar or something.
- shazow
The Chinese are happy to lull you into your Western arrogance of superior technology. They are technologically modernizing at a blistering rate, thanks to Taiwan and Western companies relocating their high tech factories into China. They are one of the few countries in the world still generating a large increase in GNP per year. Any capital they can keep from going into populace maintenance is going to their military. They are making/buying modern tanks, fighter planes, ships, and other weapons. God forbid the Israelis start selling them cutting edge military technology. Even if Israel stays under the US's economic thumb, and the US keeps them on a tight leash, China will be able to generate capital to buy weapon systems outright from the French. In five years, their military will be unrecognizable from their status. And trust me, their ICBMs will hit any place in the world they want it to. In ten years (at their current economic pace), they will probably be able to go head to head against the US. Oh sure, our weapons will be able to hit theirs at a farther distance, our tanks will be nicer, and our airplanes will have doodads theirs won't. But 1.5 billion vs 300 million. You do the math. Oh, I forgot, the US kids aren't so good with it anymore.
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
I'm not insane and I have the papers to prove it :)
I think this current administration is quite capable of systematically persecuting atheists in a "roundup" scenario, and I believe that they would love to. The only thing that keeps them from it is the fact that most people in the country are more tolerant than they are, and they would lose too many votes by "rounding up" and brainwashing/executing/imprisoning non-Christians.
Ashcroft is entitled to his religious views, but I'm also entitled to think people that are that uptight are insane idiots.
Besides, the statue is government property, and thus, at least on paper, owned by the people of the USA and subject to the Constitution. If it offends his morals, tough shit.
The Bureau of Religious Conformity is called the Supreme Court, if you haven't heard. The justices appointed by republicans don't vote with the law, they vote with their bibles. God himself votes republican, at least, that's what every preacher in the USA would have you think.
They better go for 2006. 2012 might be a bit too late.
Until we have a cost effective launch process to get things in orbit and beyond the moon will only be a place to visit and plant a flag. Notions of Moon bases are very premature. The Chinese have yet to get a man in orbit using 30 year old tech. They might get to the moon in 10 years or so but they don't have the tech prowess to do it in a cost effective manner. I predict they go for 1 or 2 moon shots then realize what a waste of money it is using current chemical fuel rockets and drop it.
I highly encourage China to buy miliatary technology and technical expertise from the French. That should keep the US safe for several decades.
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
This is a great thing, and I hope China does it sooner rather than later, because maybe it would be another "Sputnik" event which would jolt America into getting serious about space and not twiddling around with a useless space station.
China is clever: they clearly want to not compete with us in "traditional" tech stuff but leapfrog into the Next Big Thing right away so they are well established when the rest of the world ctaches up. Maybe theyre' working just as hard on Nanotech.