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Altered Carbon
It would be easy to describe this book as "cyberpunk meets noir," but that would be a disservice to the reader, the author and the book.
Although this book is set in a future that is seems to be heavily influenced by the punk movement, with computers, hackers, weapons, and leather, this is no superficial, cartoon world setting for a quick romp through cyberspace. There is a depth and texture here that promises, and delivers, as a setting for a novel that could end up as influential as Vinge's True Names, or Stephenson's Snow Crash or Spillane's Mike Hammer.
The main technological trapping of this setting is the ability to digitize, store and transport human consciousness. Peoples' consciousnesses can, and are, digitized and loaded out of and into their bodies on a regular basis. The state uses this to punish criminals by storing their minds "in the stack" (digital prison) and the wealthy and powerful can have themselves "backed up" like yesterday's spreadsheets. Interstellar travel is via "digitized human freight." Human bodies ("sleeves") can be rented, bought and sold, to provide containers for these digitized minds. And this is just the background.
This is also a hardboiled detective thriller, easily the equal to Chandler or Hammett in both plot and characterization. There is a complex plot, the de rigueur dames and guns, but also some important themes that are surprising for the genre. The plot is never formulaic, with a depth and enough unexpected twists and turns to keep the reader guessing well into the last chapter.
The protagonist, Takeshi Kovacs, is no simple hardboiled detective; he's a cashiered UN "Envoy," qualified to do anything from holding a beach head or planning a military invasion, to taking over a government from within. People with this training are barred from public office and high government positions on most settled worlds. And Kovacs has been offered a job he can't refuse by one of the richest men in twenty planets: "Kovacs, find out who killed me."
On a deeper level, this novel asks some real hard questions, that get to the heart of what it means to be human. If you can digitize, back up and restore people, what is the meaning of death? Is the "soul" digitized, or just your memories? Does it matter? When bodies can be rented and exchanged, just what is "identity"? When people can buy new bodies and live for centuries, amassing power and wealth, how will that affect their humanity? Will they become more than human, or less? How will this effect human society? These issues are all raised subtly, this is no sermonizing sociology text masquerading as a novel.
But Morgan's novel remains at its heart a well-crafted detective story. No matter how corrupt the society, no matter how powerful the rich, in the end, justice comes from the smoking barrel of a hired gun, working for some fast cash, plus expenses. This books tries, and succeeds, on so many levels, that can only hope that this will be just the first novel from this new author. Somewhere, Chandler and Hammett are saying, "Ya' done good, kid. Now kiss the dame and get outta here."
(As I was finishing this review, I discovered that Morgan's second novel, Broken Angels, which continues Kovacs exploits, has just been published by Gollancz in the UK. I'll gladly pay international shipping to get my hands on this second book as soon as possible.)
You can purchase the Altered Carbon from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.
And since I'm in nead of more reading-fodder, I'll go and see if I can get it tomorrow. Anyone know if it's available in Europe yet? Slashdot is too American-centric! :P
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Too bad he used the UN as a character/influential institution -- the story looks dated already.
Well if we are to believe White Zombie, I'd say More Human Than Human:
If you can digitize and store, you can therefore copy. I wonder if the book goes into this possibility (or does it rule it out in some fashion, technical or otherwise). Also, it can also theoretically be "tweaked", and it would start to sound much like Blade Runner and fall into the, how do you know you are what you think you are category.
For my tastes though, such abilities are a bit too open ended (kinda like time travel), and its fine if it is just a portion (e.g. TT as a mode of transportation) vs central to the story.
A thought on futurist expectations and realities... a book just smacked down a movie. Bound and printed paper outstripped The Hulk on opening weekend for both. Between the proselytizing of digital media and ebooks (which appear to be failing) a sheaf of dead tree beat out the largest opening weekend grossing movie (not adjusted for inflation for .. er .. inflating hype purposes ;-) I think that's
a neat irony.
Did the butler do it? How about the Butler v5.021? A concept related to me back in astronomy (hence the space travel connection) was digitizing people and the prospect of making copies of them (religious ramifications sure to follow) How a person may fork and how they cope seems ripe for novel exploration
Last, no mention of Bladerunner and/or replicants?
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
This sounds kind of similar to the swartzenegger movie that came out a few years ago - the 6th day. I think that is what it is called, either way, a person's "personality" was stored in some media and then could be re-inserted into a cloned body if something happened to the "original" body.
It wasn't a bad movie actually, Arnold just didn't have a good sidekick that he seems to require in all of his money films. Anyway, the book sounds interesting and I enjoyed your review.
There are few things as annoying as reading a book with a friggin' message, which is usually what I feel like I'm getting with a Micheal Crichton (watch out - genetics can be bad! Uh - oh - beware time travel in the wrong hands! Whoops!).
Now, I can deal with a theme, like what you get from watching a Miyazaki flick like "Spirited Away".
I've often felt that most technology (notice the word "most", not "all" - the jury is still out on the usefulness of gas chambers and "Boong-Ga Boong-Ga") is neither good or evil - it's all in how its used.
Like in this case. Is it wrong to download your personality into a computer or another body so you can live "forever"? Depends on the circumstances, and it looks like the author is letting humanity's response to it play out what's good and bad about it, and where it can be used and abused.
Anyway, sounds like an interesting book - I think I've seen it on PeanutPress.com, so maybe I'll have something else to read since I finished with Potter the day it came out
52 Weeks, 52 Religions with John Hummel
It's a twist on detective fiction. You're trying to solve a case--but you get extra chances. But every time around, the killer gets smarter, learns more about the victim...
Original or no, I might have to pick this one up. I need to read some new, good SF again. *sigh*
More questions the books raises:
1. If you can download your conscious into different bodies... how would you know if that gorgeous babe you're in bed with is really.... a babe? 2. Would it matter? 3. Would it finally be acceptable to ask your wife to get a new body for your birthday?
When people can buy new bodies and live for centuries, amassing power and wealth, how will that affect their humanity?
Well, for one thing, the people on Slashdot will bitch a lot about the 1000+ year copyright terms.
pi = 3.141592653589793helpimtrappedinauniversefactory7
He means 'punk as in cyberpunk.
>> Altered Carbon
Is this the sequel to altered beast?
Oh, a slashdot book review. Would that be why amazon.com is giving a time out?
I think I'll wait for the movie.
I've just finished Altered Carbon and would highly recommend it. However Morgan's second book is already out (in the UK): Broken Angels. I've already got mine imported from the UK... I guess the reviewer is a whole book behind.
Anyways, have a look at Amazon.co.uk
On a deeper level, this novel asks some real hard questions, that get to the heart of what it means to be human. If you can digitize, back up and restore people, what is the meaning of death?
...etc...
:
That subject is a recurrent question in the Culture series of SF novels by Ian M. Banks : in the Culture, people's mind states are regularly backed-up, people change bodies, can be "restored" in younger bodies after death,
Banks portrays the Culture society as bored, its people always seeking thrills in ultra-dangerous activities, joining the Culture's secret services sections called Contact and Special Circumstances usually because it adds spice to life. He also describes people who voluntarily engage in dangerous activities without being backed-up, or let themselves grow old and die naturally, and generally describes quite well the choices those people make in a Culture where death, poverty and suffering are banished.
Read Banks, you'll be glad you did. Some Culture novels (not in order)
Excession
The player of games
Consider Phlebas
Look to windward
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
Pohl's ten or Heechee novels deal with digitized consciousness. One alien race keeps them in a pouch on the body as instant advisors- sort of like Dune's Other Memory. In other Pohl novels humans get digitized into the computer and find an alternative digital universe, not unlike the Matrix. Digitized humans can live at electronic speeds, or much faster than in the flesh.
Probably my favorite sci-fi inspired tune is Rush's Red Barchetta, but I'll leave that for others to discover all together. (Peart's a genius, BTW)
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
If minds have become data files that can be backed up, transferred and used, then it means they can also be broken into, edited and altered. So I wonder if the book goes into that possibility.
A bit OT, but I have a vague recollection of some movie where a character rents a body to be able to attend a conference or business meeting across the country. I don't remember if it was central to the story or just part of it, but does anyone remember the name of the movie, and if it was similar to what the reviewer was talking about, renting a body?
"No one likes working in a hamster wheel, and your shop smells of cedar shavings from here." - TaleSpinner
Kiln People has similar background and is also a very engaging book about privacy, what it is to be human, and intellectual property rights. Brin does an excellent job a putting in humor as well.
While I have not read Morgan's Altered Carbon I know that I will because of the fun I had reading Kiln People and thinking about the philosophical questions present in Kiln People.
While on the topic one of the reasons that I enjoy's Brin's work so much is that he does a superb job of creating a believeable society and political structure given an amazing scientific advancement and its supporting technology or if something in physics was altered a little. Read the Practice Effect for an example of the latter.
Cheers and thanks for the review. I now have something else to read since I finished Harry Potter 5 so quickly.
Either give it away or get top dollar, but never sell yourself cheap.
I just ordered it from amazon.ca
http://www.computercrowsnest.com/sfnews/newsd0202. htm
this
I guess not.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Planetside works on the assumption that your body is worthless and you can regenerate in new body when the first gets hacked and blown up good.
Buggy at first, supposedly been getting better.
-- taking over the world, we are.
that doesn't mean he might not bring some new thoughts to the basic issues. This boils down to basic questions that were being asked much longer than 30 years ago.
It is also a common theme in other art forms where reality need not be considered- like film.
What is interesting to me is that all these formats cannot use the current situation as it limits the ability to play with what defines sentience. It seems always not too far off that humans will be able to 'bottle' their essence or some facsimile thereof. Yet it does not happen. Some of my favorite stuff to deal with these questions appears in Ghost in the Shell, and the Reality Dysfunction books.
For now we are stuck with humans being in the bodies they have for better or worse. I think much of the allure of these stories lies in the fact that many people are quite discontented with that- for many reasons. (mortality, obesity, weakness, etc.)
But all this rambling to tell you- yeah- there is nothing new under the sun.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
Well, there's always a place in the US government for an organization willing to postrate before the mighty prez or da house.
You were expecting a League of Extraordinary Nations, mebbe?
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
If you can digitize and store, you can therefore copy.
Seems a book Hilary Rosen would have been willing to write a forward to, eh?
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Has anyone read Frequencies by Joshua Ortega? If so, would you recommend it or not?
You are standing in an open field west of a white house, with a boarded front door. There is a small mailbox here.
I flipped through this book in B&N recently, but thought it was too violent, which usually doesn't interest me. After reading your review, and a review at SF Site where the reviewer commented
"This is not usually my kind of book -- extreme violence and tough, wise-cracking detectives don't turn my crank. But Richard Morgan kept me reading. Some of the draw was sheer momentum -- the plot is complex, with much action and many marvelous twists -- but the real strength of Altered Carbon lies in the complex and subtle characterization, which takes Kovacs far beyond hard-boiled stereotypes."
I guess I'll have to give it a try...
and It's worth your time.
Getting beyond the thumbnail film-noir meets cyberpunk, the book does cover some interesting questions.
Backing up humans is covered, but so is religious opposition to the process. Copying humans is likewise considered, as is modifying the flesh in unusual ways ( picture a very hot chick. now picture a very hot chick who secretes XTC when she's turned on. ) and some of the more usual ones ( installing the consiousness of a male in a female body ).
But dont think this is some preachy isnt-the-future-cool diatribe. Its complex plot is, as others have said, worthy of Dashel or Hammet with a similar man-against-system feel.
Overall, it gave me the same feel that Neuromancer gave me when I read it; a future darkly lit in a form that stands outside traditional genres.
A Human Right
Too bad he uses the UN as a character/trusted institution -- already seems dated.
I agree -- Altered Carbon is an amazing book. I couldn't put it down and read it in two sittings.
So when I heard that Broken Angels was out, I bought it ASAP (it's been available for a while here in Canada). you cannot imagine my disappointment at this classic textbook example of sophomore jinx! As much as I loved the first book, I hated the second and it took all I could muster to even finish it. Whereas the first book was tight, focused, gripping and exciting, the second is the exact opposite; slow, plodding and irretrievably dull.
Hopefully he'll find his muse again in future installments.
I consider spaceflight and alien species within the realm of remote possibility. Any book that somehow "ignores" the primal fear of death (which is what any society involved with personality swapping would need to overcome) rediculous. This book is obviously a peice of trippy trash and I have a hard time understanding why anyone would WANT to read about such fantastical crap. I don't see people lining up to read a fictional tale "involving a future global decision to make chinese new year 'suicide with your pet day'" because it's equally ridiculous.
Often wrong but never in doubt.
I am Jack9.
Everyone knows me.
Being a Mac user, it should be noted that Altered Cocoa will be better! :-)
Go home and die.
I've been trying to get into Banks for several months now, but it seems that many of the Culture novels are out-of-print, including several that you mention above.
Where do you recommend that I start? Is there a "Book 1"? How can I get a hold of the ones that are OOP?
Nanoox
and just how is it that humanity can justify growing a human body and then essentially reformatting it for use by the rich - but doesn't want to touch the subject of copying?
jeebus - we can't even use waste from abortions to try to cure nerve damage here in america, yet in the future we can grow entire humans and then destroy their sentience and/or soul?
real technology has shown us that a clone is not the original, nor is it a soulless, mindless husk - but an equally viable and unique individual.
this book makes the machines in the matrix look humane. at least they let the grown human live out a life in their pod.
// "Can't clowns and pirates just -try- to get along?"
It's also available in the US from Amazon, but still only in hardback of course.
Work for Change & GET PAID!
We all know that CDs don't sound exactly the same as the vinyls. Same can be said for the vinyls I guess in fact, as it does not compare to a live music.
Wouldn't digitizing a human conciousness result in a "loss of data"? I couldn't even begin to imagine how one would re-insert the digital data into the human brain again, let alone extract it in the first place. But I guess that's the premise of the book - that it is possible to duplicate the original as close as possible.
We are said to be using only 3-10% of our brain. I wonder whether in the book's world, the technology behind the digital duplication would have unlocked the rest of the brain. Otherwise, that what you may end up with is merely 1% of your "analog" brain.
Sounds like a fun book though, not that I have time to read any "fun" books these days...
cheers.
And, indeed your post reads as:-
I'm the trouble starter, punkin' instigator
I'm the fear addicted, danger illustrated
I'm a firestarter, twisted firestarter
You're the firestarter, twisted firestarter
I'm a firestarter, twisted firestarter
I'm the bitch you hated, filth infatuated - yeah
I'm the pain you tasted, well intoxicated
I'm a firestarter, twisted firestarter
You're the firestarter, twisted firestarter
I'm the self inflicted, mind detonator - yeah
I'm the one infected, twisted animator
I'm a firestarter, twisted firestarter
You're the firestarter, twisted firestarter
I'm a firestarter, twisted firestarter
My mistake, you can get it in paperback as well. Though it appears both the hardback and paperback are through Amazon resellers not from Amazon itself.
Work for Change & GET PAID!
That's what I really disliked about Heinlein: He was very right-wing. Starship Troopers was basically a pro-military propaganda piece (if you read it next time, replace "communist" or "russian" with "bugs" and see how spooky it is.) While I certainly can't begrudge someone their viewpoint or say they can't write how they feel, I just couldn't enjoy Heinlein because of it.
But that's just my opinion....
C - A language that combines the speed of assembly with the ease of use of assembly.
Reading this review reminded me strongly of Cory Doctorow's book "Down and out in the Magic Kingdom". It also reminds me of a film where travel is accomplished by transfering the mind between bodies (I don't recall the name of it though). It still sounds an interesting book, and will probably go on my "to get" list.
Ah, extraordinary gentlemen indeed!
Iain M. Banks: seconded - he's a great, great author who knows how important the STORY is, as well as the sci-fi. He's also expert at not over-reaching himself with science jargon that could look obsolete in 20,30,50... years. (Don't start with Use Of Weapons, though, it's not a good advert for his skills.)
Furthermore, I can heartily recommend Greg Egan, an Australian "hard sci-fi" author. Digital consciousness is a recurrent theme in his books - check out Permutation City and Diaspora for two darned intelligent reads.
I would agree that it is a quality piece of work, very impressive for a first novel. My only issue with the book is the sex scenes. Of course I haven't finished it yet, so perhaps the level of detail in the few sex scenes does ultimately serve some purpose - but right now they seem completely pointless. The 2 pages of porno-esque description each of the sex scenes has taken up feels to me like it does nothing for the plot or tell me anything about the characters, not that the scenes shouldn't be there at all, I'm no prude - its just there was no reason to get into it so graphically. A minor problem really, I chalk it up to an easy first-time author mistake, or perhaps a miscalculation of what gives quality SF broad appeal ;)
That said, the rest of the book is great. The main character is funny without being over the top, and his background is pretty well fleshed out so that he feels like a real character with the flaws and self-awareness lacking in so much SF. The book is well paced, and the plot is (so far) interesting and sufficiently hard to predict to keep me suprised. The setting and technology is very well done, although this is not Hard SF, so details on how things work aren't very in-depth (although the low level descriptions given are plausible, particularly coming from the main character as they are in keeping with his knowledge level). It is definitely a very cyberpunk inspired book, and reminds me a little of Gibson's Sprawl setting, and the writing style sometimes feels Gibson-esque. Not that its an imitation of Gibson, or any other of the great cyberpunk authors, the author definitely has his own voice and vision.
I'd definitely recommend this book to anyone who is a fan of mystery, SF/cyberpunk, or action and am definitely looking forward to picking up the next book when it finally comes out in the US . Speaking of which, anyone know why all the quality SF comes out in the EU first? Alastair Reynolds, Ken MacLeod, etc. Sure they are all euro authors, but so what? Why can't they be published simultaneously here? Another observation, anyone noticing the emergence of a new school of British/Scottish SF in the past few years? Almost all the new quality SF authors seem to be from the UK these days.
And right off the bat:
... about ... to ... explode ...
Although this book is set in a future that is seems to be heavily influenced by the punk movement, with computers, hackers, weapons, and leather, this is no superficial, cartoon world setting for a quick romp through cyberspace.
Head
You Post Reads:
I'm the kind of moron that gets trolled by someone trolling a troll. I don't know my head from my ass, except for the fact that my head is in my ass. I talk about homosexuality and gay rape in hopes of converting other geeks to my "Alternative Lifestyle".
Not only are you an idiot, you're a faggot. That makes all the idiots and all the faggots exponentionally BETTER than you, because at least they are not both fags and idiots.
...and I *liked* Carbon.
If you want something really good in the way of a shared-universe saga, check out John Courtenay Grimwood's Ashraf Bey stories, starting with "Pashazade" - alternate universe where the world wars didn't happen, the Ottoman Empire and Napoleonic French squabble over a very cyberpunk version of Alexandria. Deeper, more realistic and much funnier than AC. Warning for Xenophobic Americans - lots of Arabic culturte here (seen through a critical and wry eye, though).
Your post reads:
FAILURE
I actually had just finished Kiln People right before I began Altered Carbon (im 3/4th into it now), and they are radically different books. The fundamental concept, of copying human conciousness is vaguely similiar - and both are essentially detective stories narrated in the first person. Oh, and both are quality books (although so far I'm liking Altered Carbon better). Other than that...
I hope you read this, and even for a secon realize what a pathetic peice of shit you are.
You suck at spelling. How do you expect the corporate, money-making world (read: "that thing outside") to respect you if you're an illiterate linux zealot? Moreover, one that replies to trolls on Slashdot?
Your mother should have aborted you.
Your post reads:
10 DROP PANTS
20 INSERT PENIS
30 GOTO 10
Seems John Varley wrote a number of stories on that theme a few decades ago.
And as for switching bodies, the classic story Bodyguard from Galaxy magazine comes to mind, as well as Jack Chalker's "Four Lords of the Diamond" quadlogy.
If you like those themes, more stories for you to look for.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
I, too, can't read the name "Kovacs" without thinking of Watchmen.
"Consider Phlebas" was the first Culture novel, and is as good a place to start as any.
The forking idea reminded me of Brian Aldiss' "Let's Be Frank" (1957). The protagonist (named Frank) forks naturally by reproducing in the standard way - except the children aren't just copies, his consciousness simply expands to an additional body. One mind sees out of two bodies at the same time (which took some getting used to). The death of one body (of eventual millions) didn't matter much. He got used to his bodies dying. :) Check it out; it's in one or more anthologies.
I always equivocate. Well, almost always.
Obvious Flame/Troll/etc.
Linux Hippies don't have any girlfriends.
For a second there, your made us feel like we might actually get a girl... for you to cheat with.
and when does the batle for copy protection (and subsequent h/\k) begin... the letters begin like this: "You are hereby requested to cease and desist all activites relating to the copying of digital ethereal material, including, but not limited to; souls, consciousness, thoughts, random fantasies, well-planned fantasies, deja-vu, et al..."
more metorites than astronomers, better eat dessert first.
I've had pretty good luck at used book stores; have gotten five Banks novels in the last few months. Haven't gotten around to reading them yet though :(
So let's ignore Citizen of the Galaxy and Stranger in a Strange Land and just focus on Starship Troopers with the idea that only a "right-wing" nut could be in favor of exterminating hive societies like Nazi Germany. We'll just ignore that the left-wing Ruskies were alongside us in that. We'll just rule out of bounds as politically incorrect the notion that nonhuman societies might only have a hive modality, and none of the redeming qualities the Germans, for instance, can show in other socio-historical phases.
We'll will, however, so as not to be entirely off-topic here, mention that Heinlein delt with the consequences of brain transfer to another body (in a late novel that's so marginally readable I can't remember the title - executive with rare blood type ends up in secretary's body, thus involving Heinlein in his normal - not right-wing I think - fantasizing about people who happen to be women but are every bit as brilliant and capable as his men).
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
Your post reads:- I am attempting to make a dull, trolling comment using old-skool programming techniques to make a point, yet will contain such absurd logic mistakes that will make it unfunny, idiotic and completely and utterly crap. Get a motherfucking life, you motherfucking insidious slob.
The story was in Welcome to the Monkey House, although the title of the story escapes me right now. It's a great collection of short stories by a very talented author - pick it up if you have a chance.
There's something not quite right about this review. Maybe this is the first time the reviewer has written a review (or maybe this was a school assignment) but come on, there's such a thing as spreading it on a bit too thick.
Did the author write this?
There were absolutely no negatives. No book is THAT good.
I hope the reviewer got a better grade in class.
Are you confusing the author's opinions with his editorial voice? Or stories framed to be understood in his own time with eternal political positions?
I think people who say Heinlein was "merely" a right-winger, esp. because of <i>Starship Troopers</i> are mistaken. I think people who say he's "merely" a sex-crazed liberal, esp. because of everything from <i>Time Enough for Love</i> onwards, are mistaken. He has his own views and they aren't easily characterized today...
BTW, never forget that "right wing" today is very different from what it was during Heinlein's main productive period (50s-70s). They objected to "tax and spend," and would be shocked speechless at anyone, much less "conservatives," pushing "borrow and spend" fiscal policies. They might be shocked at open homosexuality, but would be even more shocked at the police arrested consenting adults for acts done in their own bedroom. Etc.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
OT, but when I hear the name Kovacs, I think of Ernie Kovacs. He was a good comedian, and he definitely had the hacker spirit--he used to mess around with camera angles and set design to do some cool visual tricks. This was back in the 50's...
He probably fit more into libertarian - in particular I can't see his many & varied sexual themes (not so much starship troopers but all the lazarus long books) being "right wing" views.
POSTUS.
BEEEEEEEEOTCHII!!!!
Bow down and worship my unparallelled hyperbolic self-aggrandizement!
DO IT!
pleeeeeeease?!!!!
Here is an attempt at a proof that it is not really "me": If my original consciousness continues to exist in my old body, it would certainly be "me". My new body would also be "me". So if you define consciousness as a "sense of being an individual", both can't be "me", because there is only one "me". Proof by reductio ad absurdum. The copy of my consciousness in the new body cannot really be "me".
Okay, okay, I know there are a thousand loopholes in this "proof". It's more an attempt at formalizing my gut feelings about this subject.
This sure looks similar to what Damage studios is working on in their upcoming RPG
Always left out is the vastly underrated John Varley and his amazing first novel, The Ophuichi Hotline. One of the first of this style of "Clone Mysteries" it sets the stage for the rest of his "Eight Worlds" universe which explores many of the issues the review says Morgan only touches on.
I'm curious to know if anyone's ever read both their work, and could compare.
As plots go, "find out who killed me" had just as interesting a twist in "Who Shot Roger Rabbit." No, not the movie, the book, wherein Roger's "tween" has to find out who shot and killed him.
Well, a couple of other replies already dealt with your mistaken opinion of Heinline as "right-wing", so I wouldn't expand on that.
But what i'd like to suggest would be to learn to enjoy a work of fiction SEPARATELY from its political message.
As an example, I thoroughly enjoy reading Eric Flint (especially 1632 series), even though some of his books - especially "1632" itself - are in-your-face left-ing pro-union texts which are as opposite to my own political views as "Stranger in a strange land" would be to the Pope's morals.
Just my 2 bytes worth.
-DVK
"The right to figure things out for yourself is the only true freedom everyone shares. Go use it"-R.A.Heinlein
Starship Troopers was indeed pro-military, but that was "the soldiers try to do a good job", not "the soldiers are the solution to every problem". In that novel, you were only a full citizen, with voting rights, after you had performed government service (which might or might not have been military). During your service you had no vote. So the government, which told the military what to do, had no active military people in it.
Note also that the heroes of Starship Troopers were the soldiers, not the generals.
Heinlein could easily have structured that society differently if he really were a "very right-wing" person. He could also have made it so that only military service got you the vote, or that the future society required universal military service of all people (like some countries do even today).
And you may feel that the Bugs were a thinly-veiled device to stand in for Communism, but I don't think so. A military novel needs to show the soldiers fighting someone and the Bugs made an interesting enemy. Besides, they raised an important theme: even though all of Earth was united under a peaceful government, it was not possible to disband the military; any society must always be prepared to defend itself.
You ought to read Expanded Universe sometime. There is a short essay in there (I think it was actually an introduction to one of the pieces) where Heinlein discussed ways to improve the government of America. One of his suggestions was to give the vote only to women. Another was to try out the solution in Twain's "The Curious Republic of Gondour".
Heinlein was more a libertarian than right-wing.
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
-m
I believe the first one was the short novel "Player of Games"*, then he expanded on the universe in "Consider Phlebas"**.
That book is definitely his Magnum Opus. The scale of the book is immense, while still focusing on the fate of small individuals. A few words from the appendix:
Statistics
Length of war: 48 years, one month. Total casualties, including machines, medjel and non-combatants: 851.4 billion. Losses: ships - 91,215,660; Orbitals: - 14,334; planets and major moons - 53; Rings - 1; Spheres - 3; Stars - 6.
The elder races rate this war as one of those singularily interesting Events that they see so rarely these days.
That's the kind of conflict we are following a handful of frail humans through. Overall, this book is on my top five list of books.
In the same universe: Use of Weapons*, Excession, Look to Windward.
Other SF: Feersum Endjinn*, Inversions, Against a Dark Background*
Non-SF: The Wasp Factory**, Walking on Glass*, The Bridge, Crow Road* (filmed for TV), A Song of Stone?, Canal Dreams?, Compilicty?, Espedair Street?, Whit?.
Interesting note: Somehow Iain Banks has managed to pull off something no author has done before: he is both a respected SF writer and a "respected author". High-brow magazines will analyze his latest main-stream novels and rate them highly, puzzling over connections to his earlier mainstream works, Jungian philosophy, 9/11 or whatever. They don't mention his SF career at all :-)
Interesting note two. I asked him myself, "How the hell do you pronounce that first name of yours?!". He said: "Eye-ee-eye-an", ie. pronounce every letter.
In the above '*' denotes "very very good'", '**' "Nobel Prize material", '?' haven't read.
I choose to remain celibate, like my father and his father before him.
This concept of being immune to death, and how that affects people, reminds me of an online novel previously reported here called The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect. Interesting stuff.
Read my keyboard review.
Kiln People is a great book. You are correct, this sounds very much like it. I'm seeing alot of SF out there now with this theme/concept. You can also see it in a book recently reviewed on slashdot called Collapsium.
"One of his suggestions was to give the vote only to women" Is he NUTs!!!! If you want to utterly destroy America, do just that. Women act based on emotion rather then logic. It's not a criticism, but rather an anthropological fact (basic child caring instincts). You may see this post as a troll and/or even hate me. But was the US really better off when women were alowed to vote? Hey, I speek from my mind, not my heart.
Life is not for the lazy.
That was 'I Will Fear No Evil', not one of Heinlein's better novels (Nothing he wrote from the mid-70's on was all that good. In fact, I'd ted to somewhat avoid everything he wrote after about 1970)
Heinlein was what would now be called a NeoCon, but was then called a Liberal. He was an individualist, and very strong in those views, although he wasn't averse to the benefits of Socialism, he just believed in individuals, rather than groups (Especially ethnic ones, Manny's reaction to racism in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is typical for Heinlein.)
And Starship Troopers was about Individual Responsibility and the why's and wherefore's of Civic Virtue, not rampant militarism, the Military was just the setting he chose, for good reason, to show the conversion of a spoiled rich kid into a responsible individual. John Ringo and David Weber do much the same with Roger in the 'March To' series, although Roger starts off as a much less worthwhile individual than Juan Rico, who's a nice, if spoiled, kid.
Do not mix up the movie (Which was apparently an intentional mockery of the book, demonstarting that veerhoeven couldn't see what Heinlein was talking about) with the Book, for ST.
"You've got an invalid haircut" -Warren Zevon - Life'll Kill Ya
Actually, in Starship Trooper, you only became a full citizen (i.e. able to vote) if you served. This was explained in the novel as not being moral,per se, so much as pragmatic (i.e. who is going to rebel??)
Technically, Inversions is set in the Culture universe, though even a hard-core Culture fan might miss the oblique references it makes.
There's also a good story called, "Overdrawn at the memory bank" which got made into a very bad movie.
But I gotta say, I'm a little tired of this concept. It was vaguely interesting 30 years ago. But now that I've had all this time to think about it, and know more about the human brain works, I find the concept silly and naive. A human personality is a complex, poorly understood entity. Its physical implementation is subtle and controversial. "Recording" a mind will never be as simple as ripping a CD. It will take decades, maybe centuries, of research and experiment.
Which is where the concept gets really stupid. Because these things don't happen all at once. Long before you're able to perform a literal brain dump, we will have learned tons about how the brain actually works. And that will process will change humans and human society far more than anything I've seen an SF story.
I don't read it as pro-military. I think it's an exploration of what it means to be a citizen of a society, and emphasizes that a citizen properly earns their "right" to the benefits of society by shouldering their responsibilities as a citizen.
The main characters in the novel prove their worth by being willing to lay their lives on the line to protect their civilization. And others, such as Rico's father, are so far removed from that viewpoint that they look down upon those who choose to possibly sacrifice themselves for the continuation of their society.
Trust not a man who's rich in flax / His morals may be sadly lax
carbon alters YOU!
...is okay, but no _Altered Carbon_
In many ways the reverse of David Brin's _Kiln People_ (where people can copy themselves into tempory bodies, dittos or "dit's"), it explores a facinating world shaped by it's technology.
Somewhat dark, and yet different from classic cyberpunk I strongly recomend _Altered Carbon_
All the comments so far make it sound like a good book. So why did the reviewer have to compare it (a novel, which is supposed to have a rich setting because in SF, the setting is a character) with two universes that were built up primarily from short stories over a long time period?
I mean, Known Space and Heinlein's future history were cool in part because they were constructed from disparate bits across a bunch of stories. Linking short stories to make a bigger picture rewards fans.
Whereas a novel, well, it can't be the same sort of puzzle-universe-maker. It can be rich (aka Dune, etc; novels that build and expand on a universe). But it's not the same as what the reviewer compared it to. Different beastie.
So, if it's a good book, why does the reviewer make a really, really stupid comparison?
A.
The 27 years of Star Trek have been ambiguous about whether teleportation was a conversion to information and reconstructed at the other end, or conversion into some other form of matter-energy that could be transmitted. The difference is crucial, for the information case has philosphical issues such as copies, identity, and manipulative change. The "official" Next Generation handbook weaseled the explanation was "both". Items like food replication and holodeck material was low resolution patterns of non-living matter. Whereas human beings went though some high resolution transmission that was not information, so they could not be "resurrected" from death, nor copied, etc. Some mumble-jumble about special quantum states in living matter that was not "information".
Despite the kludge, there were dozens of transportor subplots that sure acted like information paradoxes, such as duplicated actors. My favorite was when Scotty survives 75 years as a castaway by putting himself into a perpetual transporter loop.
....who travelled back in time, murdered himself and performed an unnatural act upon his dead body.
Thus being the first person ever to commit the crime of auto-necrophelia.
written in 1966 by Harlan Ellison, called Demon with a Glass Hand , which starred Robert Culp. A modern remake is being filmed too.
In Demon, the whole human race was digitized to protect it from alien invasion, not just individual personalities.
The mindless repetition of that "Your post reads" thing is neither witty nor sophisticated. In fact, it rather makes you look like a cock-swallowing ass spleunker. Just like your mother and her father before her.
You're the first person to admit to me that you get it. It is completely original one (i.e. not stolen), based on some recent theories that I'm sure you're equally aware of. I'm looking to get it on a t-shirt next.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Yup, read this a while back. It's great. Dark, complex, scary, thought provoking.
I had no trouble finding it in Sydney, and I imagine the UK would have it too. Publishing schedules for books are weird, aren't they?
It seems amazing we don't have some more organised scheme.
Mind you, books are just data in a nice form (portable, rugged, readible in any reasonable light, no batteries). The whole business is living in fear, I imagine. It's amazing the music industry has been the first to take the bullet. I never expected that. Printed paper - and the process that produces it cheaply - is proving robust.
"Cats like plain crisps"
When it was first written there was a movement to ban Huck Finn because it undermined segregation (I can't remember the official justification used, just the actual reason)
Then in the 1980's, there was a movement to ban it because it was demeaning to African Americans.
So, when it was first written people wanted to ban it for being insufficiently racist, and now they wish to ban it because it is too racist.
Both groups wanted to protect the children (tm).
Talk about irony.
I have thought about the possibility of getting a "brain dump" (and a way to do something with it) or an "upload", etc.
The question is, wouldn't it be the case, from the point of view of "you" that "you" get nothing out of it? After the copy is made, you branch off and eventually die or whatever.
When your copy is "activated", what's in it for "you". Sure, your "copy" is happy, but you died miserably in a ditch somewhere, or whatever.
So, all these ideas are neat, and if ever possible, most people would avail themselves of the idea, but it is really only a nice gesture on the part of the "donor" personality...
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
It wasn't a terrible book. Actually, it was quite readable, and had some very interesting ideas. Unfortunately, it suffered from some severe issues. The major problem I had with it was the graphic sexual explicitness - the book verges on pornography at times, and most of these seemed extremely vulger and gratuitous.
It also seemed very unpolished, somewhat like John C. Wright's The Golden Age, which came out last year in the same genre (trans-human sf). Both have interesting ideas, but both are clearly very rough. Compare them to the seminal work of the genre, Vinge's A Fire Upon the Deep, and the differences are profound.
Overall: Good, not great.
James.
"I have spread my dreams under your feet, Tread softly, because you tread on my dreams." - W. B. Yeats.
Shadows by John Saul is about ten years old now, but it was fiction about a private school called 'The Academy'. Various bright students died in weird and wonderful ways, and eventually you find out that the science-mad neurologist 'dean' of the school really just took their brains and hooked them up to a giant mainframe.
It all ends with the plug being pulled on the project when they're found out, but the students have already copied their minds all over the Internet (even though such a thing was not popular at the time of writing) and they live on forever, mwahah!
Anyway, also a very good read.
Another fabulous Sci-Fi book with a similar theme: Circuit of Heaven. I haven't read a lot of Sci-Fi books, but this one was just mesmerizing. It's a quick read, but really gets you thinking for a while after you put it down.
... and what happens if you never die. The conflicts center around the main character who is one of the remaining hold-outs for going into the bin for good. I highly recommend it and it looks like a number of Amazon reviewers do as well.
It's a similar idea in that you can upload your "soul" into a virtual reality world called the "bin" (this was before The Matrix, mind you). The plot centers around the spiritual implications of living forever in the virtual world
The Red Pill
Last me for the next 1x10^28 meters. It's damn perfect. Mixes old school "Last gas 100 miles" signs with edgy cosmology; superb cognitive dissonance. I'm sure plenty of others will grok the tshirt, in the right crowd.
.. Conquering Earth for our robot masters.
well done spoiling a major plot point.
It was explained as being both moral and pragmatic.
It was moral because it was open to anyone. You weren't guaranteed to enjoy your assignment, but you were guaranteed to be capable of carrying it out.
It was pragmatic because anyone who served would be likely to care deeply about the government, and would be less likely to be swayed by empty political slogans. There was also some dialog speculating that the possible troublemakers were more likely to just serve and get the vote.
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
Yes it does.
Any more might spoil the plot.
Since you've read The Practice Effect, maybe you can improve the encyclopedia article on it that I started:
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Practice_Effect
Conquering Earth for our robot masters.
Since I write (somewhat erotic at times) fiction about our future with self-thinking robots. :^)
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
"No, no," said Frankie, "it's the brain we want to buy."
"What!"
"I thought you said you could just read his brain electronically," protested Ford.
"Oh yes," said Frankie, "but we'd have to get it out first. It's got to be prepared."
"Treated," said Benji.
"Diced."
"Thank you," shouted Arthur, tipping up his chair and backing away from the table in horror.
"It could always be replaced," said Benji reasonably, "if you think it's important."
"Yes, an electronic brain," said Frankie, "a simple one would suffice."
"A simple one!" wailed Arthur.
"Yeah," said Zaphod with a sudden evil grin, "you'd just have to program it to say 'What?' and 'I don't understand' and 'Where's the tea?' --- who'd know the difference?"
"What?" cried Arthur, backing away still further.
"See what I mean?" said Zaphod and howled with pain because of something that Trillian did at that moment.
"I'd notice the difference," said Arthur.
"No you wouldn't," said Frankie mouse, "you'd be programmed not to."
Did you mount a military-grade, variable-focus MASER on an unlicensed artificial intelligence?
I had a hard time putting this one down... there's such great characterization.
Hopefully he'll revisit this setting in a future novel. He'd be doing readers of his work a disservice if he didn't.
Beware - goatse.cx redirect above!!!!1111
Hi Jhan
(I am posting here since the Mars discussion is archived)
"Actually, there was a lot of sceptisism from the scientists about that little experiment in the book. It turned out that the reason Saxifrage Russell pushed that project so hard was that he had (unethically, without consent) hidden GM lichen inside the heaters, remember?"
Thanks, I will reread that when I run across my copy.