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Dear Sir: Your Credit Card Number Has Been Owned

An anonymous reader submits: "California has become the first state in the nation to require companies victimized by malicious computer attacks to disclose what might have been compromised to their customers. Dubbed the Security Breach Information Act, companies whose systems are cracked and have credit card, bank account, and/or other significant customer data stolen are required to report the intrusion either by email, snail mail, a notice on their website, or by notification to the news media. Law takes effect Tuesday, July 1 (tomorrow)."

179 comments

  1. I Remember when... by under_score · · Score: 5, Informative

    Slashdot was compromised back a few years ago. The maintainers were very quick to notify everyone and recommend changing passwords immediately. If only other businesses were as forthcoming!

    And there weren't any credit card numbers involved!

    1. Re:I Remember when... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      it's absolutely ridiculous that the year never shows up on any slashdot story .. so u cant tell what year a story was posted

      fix that damn bug

    2. Re:I Remember when... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you probably wont get much satisfaction posting bugs in story threads.
      /. bug tracker

      might want to check out This

    3. Re:I Remember when... by gr0ngb0t · · Score: 3, Informative

      from the linked post...

      Yup, Somebody Cracked Slashdot

      Posted by CmdrTaco on 30/09/00 0:30
      from the wiping-egg-off-our-faces dept.


      to me, that certainly looks like the 30th of September, 2000.

      Fix how you display your dates.

    4. Re:I Remember when... by frodo+from+middle+ea · · Score: 3, Funny

      Exactly, I mean think of all those slashdot users, who had stored their credit card numbers on slashdot.

      --
      for the last time people, I am "frodo from middle eaRTH", not "middle eaST".
    5. Re:I Remember when... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you have to adjust your settings. mine shows "2000" just fine.

    6. Re:I Remember when... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I remember that... That was the day I changed my password from "xxxxxx" to "zzzzzz". Now, they'll never figure it out. :)

    7. Re:I Remember when... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That could be 1900, or 2100!
      Crappy year 2K incompatable software!

    8. Re:I Remember when... by RedWizzard · · Score: 1

      Get yourself an account. Then you can make the date format anything you like.

    9. Re:I Remember when... by Anguo · · Score: 1

      When was that...?

      I find it very inconvenient that /. doesn't display the YEAR in the dates...

      --
      http://www.masquilier.org/republic/election/ Condorcet, Plurality voting and alternative voting enabled bulletin board.
    10. Re:I Remember when... by Chibi · · Score: 1

      Slashdot was compromised back a few years ago. The maintainers were very quick to notify everyone and recommend changing passwords immediately. If only other businesses were as forthcoming!

      And there weren't any credit card numbers involved!


      First of all, it's definitely commendable for Slashdot to notify it's userbase. However, the fact that there's no financial data involved makes it less of a bad thing. If you have an account where basically all someone can do is troll with the account, BFD. It's definitely a pain, but no major damage.

      Now, take an account that has money tied to it, and people will be a lot more pissed and concerned. So, it's still embarrassing for Slashdot, but it doesn't carry the weight of some of these other sites being broken into.

      Ultimately, though, I think sites owe it to their users to be honest and straighforward.

      --
      If all you have are silver bullets, everything looks like a werewolf.
  2. "Update:" by shawnywany · · Score: 5, Funny

    "All your base is now belong to them."

    1. Re:"Update:" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Security by telling-everyone-else-how-you-screwed-up.

  3. At least they're doing something sorta productive by I'm+just+joshin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Not a bad idea but, with them having a 38 billion dollar deficit one would think they'd be focused on that.

    So glad not to be there now.

  4. MS Bank v1.1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny
    for i in `select * from users`; do
    /usr/sbin/sendmail $i.email < sorry.txt
    done
    1. Re:MS Bank v1.1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      apparently MS Bank runs on unix. in a bash shell...

      right... sher...

    2. Re:MS Bank v1.1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      actually hotmail ran on BSD untill a few years ago

    3. Re:MS Bank v1.1 by maverickbna · · Score: 1

      Actually, when Microsoft first bought Hotmail, they were running Solaris. Microsoft tried to move the systems over to Windows NT, but the systems couldn't handle the high stress of millions of users logging in at once - they promptly moved back to Solaris. Don't know when they moved to POMS (Piece of Microsoft S***) software...

      --
      You are great player! Present you with points!
    4. Re:MS Bank v1.1 by AvitarX · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      It was BSD web servers with a Solaris back end for the DB.

      So there.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    5. Re:MS Bank v1.1 by YellowElectricRat · · Score: 1, Informative

      Sorry, wrong - HotMail was originally running on FreeBSD. When MS bought it, they transitioned to Win2K, which actually managed to perform BETTER in many circumstances - for example, negating the need for SSL accelerators, etc.

      You can read the whole case study here.

    6. Re:MS Bank v1.1 by antis0c · · Score: 1

      Don't forget this bash shell has its own embedded SQL parser/client.

      --

      ..There's a-dooin's a-transpirin'
    7. Re:MS Bank v1.1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      modding this guy off topic for a pro ms post is lame. mods suck.

    8. Re:MS Bank v1.1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Microsoft bought Hotmail in 1997. Win2k wasn't released until a few years later. Anyway, hardware improvements probably also removed the need for SSL accelerators. That, and the move away from CGI, instead of Apache modules.

      And even then, Unix (well, GNU) stuff had to be added:
      Microsoft Services for UNIX (SFU) was implemented to provide the Hotmail team with standard UNIX utilities like grep and du.

    9. Re:MS Bank v1.1 by Imperator · · Score: 1

      not just any bash shell, but a bash shell well-integrated with some sort of database server...

      --

      Gates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves.
    10. Re:MS Bank v1.1 by Electrum · · Score: 1

      Don't forget this bash shell has its own embedded SQL parser/client.

      Actually, the source code to bash is three times as large as the source code to SQLite.

    11. Re:MS Bank v1.1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh yes, very trustworthy info: a case study at MS.com
      Don't they have any reports on the use of Linux I can read when I think about switching? Those are probably very unbiased too.

    12. Re:MS Bank v1.1 by zulux · · Score: 1

      for i in `select * from users`; do /usr/sbin/sendmail $i.email
      Here's the Official MSDN sample code (complete with gotos)

      Dim Suckers as Recordset

      Set Suckers = MyComputer.MyDatabases.ThisDatabase.MyRecordset.[M y Users]
      Rem Whay_Kind_of_Jerk_Puts_Spaces_in_Table_names?

      Top:
      if ROT13(Suckers.Secret_Account) = "HAX0R3D" then Suckers.[Needs Mail] = True.
      If Suckers.EOF() then goto TheEnd:
      Suckers.NextRecord
      Goto Top

      TheEnd:

      ###
      Then Go to word and do a mail merge. Ask the paperclip for help.

      --

      Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.

    13. Re:MS Bank v1.1 by rifter · · Score: 1

      not just any bash shell, but a bash shell well-integrated with some sort of database server...

      IANADBA, however, here are some Observations:

      First off, it is possible to get bash to do queries like this, though not directly afaik. Bash does run on win32. Secondly, decent RDBMS clients will allow one to enter code not unlike what is pictured above. I don't know that you can do such things to MSSQL, at least with included software (one could write it I suppose) but then I did say decent RDBMS, and you may require some stored procedures here.

      Since this is Microsoft, those who said you probably can't do this are probably right. I would think they would have to go through some kind of Big GUI Wizard that lets you select one name at a time, clicking "next" roughly 15 times per name, andwhich asks whether you are sure, then "are you really sure?", then "are you absolutely certain?" for each name. After you have gotten through the wizard to the part where you have confirmed 6-7 times that yes, you are happy with the final list of users (which can only be viewed in a small window that you have to use scrollbars to read the names from, cannot copy in text and which cuts the names off anyway) the whole thing either crashes (15% chance) or gives a random error which basically either translates to "Nah I can't let you do that, actually" (50% chance) or "You can't really be serious, so I am going to close now (35% chance).

  5. Re:The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    FTM (Fecal Troll Matter) can beat the rush and blahblah... presumably thats his/her/its FP claim.

    yeah it makes no sense, but he is fecal matter, of trolls no less, what more could you expect?

    guess that makes him/her/it hella stinky.

  6. I'll be the first one to say it... by Firestorm_Rising · · Score: 0, Troll

    Ownage!!!

  7. Obligatory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "All your CC nums are belong to us."

    Please don't mod me down :-(

  8. Damn straight. by autopr0n · · Score: 3, Redundant

    People should be responsible for poor security they implement.

    --
    autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
    1. Re:Damn straight. by BiggerIsBetter · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yup.

      How about if your local bank didn't lock it's safe at night, and used shitty supermarket padlocks on the doors? Then didn't tell you that people broke in occasionally when no-one was looking, but quietly increased your fees to cover the losses? Sound reasonable? No, of course it doesn't, but it's not far off the level of security some clowns put online. Personally, I'd like to see the sysadmins name posted in the notices too. :-D

      Imagine if these were physical break-ins rather than electronic ones. The money's all the same, the only difference is that until now, it didn't make the evening news. It's about time it stopped being swept under the carpet.

      --
      Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
    2. Re:Damn straight. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The trouble is that people think software behaves the same as hardware but don't understand that online practices should be the same as offline practices.

    3. Re:Damn straight. by hackstraw · · Score: 1

      But this is an example of yet another way too specific law. Why is it that this law was passed concerning electronic breakins (and this is only an assumption), yet there is no law regarding physical breakins.

      As a customer, there is no difference between the two, but in the eyes of the law there is?

    4. Re:Damn straight. by Anonym0us+Cow+Herd · · Score: 1

      Why is it that this law was passed concerning electronic breakins (and this is only an assumption), yet there is no law regarding physical breakins.

      Because physical break in's are harder to hide, keep out of the public knowledge, off the news, etc.

      Generally with a physical break in, you call the police. Soon, all the local news stations with a police scanner know something is up at Bank of Microsoft.

      --
      The price of freedom is eternal litigation.
    5. Re:Damn straight. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit analogy. If that was the case, the bank would lose customers because they are taking a poor gamble like any business has to. Now if they were keeping private customer information inside the safe, now we're talking about a workable analogy.

  9. About time ... by aligma · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This looks like a good start for something that should have happened a long time ago. If people know their information (such as credit card numbers) has been compromised, they can solve the problem. Under Australian law, I think that companies have to tell you if you ask, but I'm not sure they actively publish that kind of information... If they don't, they should! Does anyone know if ISO has a certified standard for web services security? If not ... this might be a good time to make one...

  10. Security Breach by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    "Umm, I would send out notices, but it appears that the crackers overwrote the mailing addresses of our entire userbase with 123 Sesame Street."

    1. Re:Security Breach by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      "Umm, I would send out notices, but it appears that the crackers overwrote the mailing addresses of our entire userbase with 123 Sesame Street."

      "required to report the intrusion either by email, snail mail, a notice on their website, or by notification to the news media."

      Nice try but I dont think the Judge would be amused

    2. Re:Security Breach by YOU+LIKEWISE+FAIL+IT · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Interestingly enough, whats the exact wording of the law? Can you just bury it somewhere on the website which is the equivalent of a disused lavatory in an unlit basement with no stairs and a sign on the door saying "Beware of the Leopard"?

      I think this law would be a lot stronger if it mandated contact by all of those forms to the extent made possible by available customer data.

      This is kind of a sore spot for me at the moment because of a different, but similar misadventure of my own. Recently, my net banking access got frozen because too many incorrect password attempts had been made on it. However, the bank did not see fit to notify me of this, and I only found out when I urgently needed to do a wire transfer at 11pm on the weekend. And of course their service facility was long closed by that point and wouldn't be open until Monday. Sucks.

      YLFI

      --
      One god, one market, one truth, one consumer.
    3. Re:Security Breach by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even deadlier...
      Thats a great point, person seeks revenge on company and deletes alot of the customer data so that they have to go public as opposed to an email that they can try to keep under the rug.

    4. Re:Security Breach by Yer+Mom · · Score: 1

      [puts on sysadmin hat]

      "You DID have backups, didn't you?"

      --
      Never mind Spamassassin. When's Spammerassassin coming out?
    5. Re:Security Breach by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Hell hath no fury like a pissed-off Glaswegian.

      Or drunk (pissed?) one. But I repeat myself!

      On a serious note, why are all the drunks in London Scottish? It certainly seems that way whenever I visited the place? Perhaps too much alcohol over a long period of time alters your accent so you sound like you're from Scotland?

    6. Re:Security Breach by mark-t · · Score: 1
      Thats a great point, person seeks revenge on company and deletes alot of the customer data so that they have to go public as opposed to an email that they can try to keep under the rug
      Ah... nice paranoia theory with just one flaw...

      Unless the hacker used an EMP that would invariable have to affect a whole lot more than just the CC companies, they'll have backups. There would be no reason for any customers to not be contacted. And since CC companies use multiple backups in multiple places as insurance against the possibility of local disasters, the hacker would need to somehow destroy every backup the CC company had, in every building everywhere.

      Wasn't there something along these lines happening in "Fight Club"?

  11. Posting on website wouldn't be enough by CastrTroy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I don't think that posting the information on the website would be effective enough. Sites such as amazon.com may have my credit card number stolen. If I don't visit the site within the time frame that they are displaying it then I may never find out about it. They need to do something that requires less action from the users such as snail/e-mail. I don't think site postings should be allowed.

    --

    Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    1. Re:Posting on website wouldn't be enough by jeffkjo1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I honestly don't even like the idea of them sending an email with this information. I can see some unscrupulous thief sending an email with forged headers stating: "Hi from amazon, our credit card database system was stolen by some meddlin' hackers, please click this link and reenter your information to reactivate your Amazon account. We apologize for the inconvienience."

    2. Re:Posting on website wouldn't be enough by jeffy124 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      chances are very good that someone in the press will notice the notice on a site like amazon's, or an amazon customer that does catch it will phone the press. hence, word will still get out that something happened.

      --
      The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
    3. Re:Posting on website wouldn't be enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or even better sell all your Amazon stock, start spamming those out to people and buy the stock back when the price drops, then when the ruse is uncovered watch the price to go back up.

      It sounds ridiculous but remember a _rumor_ that bin laden's _brother_ was captured sent prices soaring on a few occasions...

    4. Re:Posting on website wouldn't be enough by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      With something like amazon this is likely to happen. However, Amazon was only used as an example, what if a smaller retailer had the same problem. I think many people who the breach of security was important to would not find out about it.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    5. Re:Posting on website wouldn't be enough by Sherloqq · · Score: 1

      The law should say that a notice on the website should be combined with a blurb in the media (CNN, MSN, AOL), so those like yourself (or myself, for that matter) would stand a greater chance of being alerted sooner.

      Or they should post to Slashdot :)

      --
      Have EVDO, will travel.
    6. Re:Posting on website wouldn't be enough by jeffy124 · · Score: 1

      yeah, that's certainly an issue. IIRC, other articles I've read about this say that a company must email or snail mail, but if it costs more than D dollars or there are more than X customers to notify, then they can post a note or call the media. Of course, this suddenly makes emailing the 100 customers of a tiny shop cost a cool million.

      --
      The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
    7. Re:Posting on website wouldn't be enough by janda · · Score: 1

      If I was going to quote the parent, I would say:

      The law should say that a notice on the website should be combined with a blurb in the media (CNN, MSN, AOL),[...]

      If it's not on the Game Show Network, Food Network, or The Learning Channel, I'll never see it.

      If you've got my credit information, and some L33T script kiddies have just 0w^3d you, you should be required to send me something.

      --
      Karma: Food Fight (Mostly affected by Date Plate).
    8. Re:Posting on website wouldn't be enough by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1
      I don't think that posting the information on the website would be effective enough.

      Agreed entirely. Passive notifications for important information are just pathetic.

      It's like web sites or ISPs where you sign up, and they have a set of Ts&Cs and a privacy policy, and then a caveat that they may change these at any time by putting the changes on their web site, and the changes take effect immediately. If you don't visit the web site during the minutes after the policy changes, while every spammer in the universe is downloading the mailing list they just made available after amending their previous privacy policy, I guess that's just too bad for you, huh?

      I'm not sure what the legal position would be on adjusting Ts&Cs like that (e.g., if an ISP changed its AUP and then kicked a paying subscriber without refund for violating a condition he didn't know existed). It's scummy either way, yet plenty of places seem to do it.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    9. Re:Posting on website wouldn't be enough by bagofbeans · · Score: 1

      Can't do that in U.K. because of data protection act. If keep of personal info changes Ts & Cs or privacy policy significantly (eg can now distribute personal data they couldn't before), they must delete the old data and start afresh under the new conditions.

    10. Re:Posting on website wouldn't be enough by fd · · Score: 1

      That happens anyway. I've got some nasty ones claiming to be from Paypal recently. Not only do they ask for your password, they want your bank account and credit card number as well.. for "verification" that you want to keep your account active. I'm sure there are a lot of people who fall for it too.

    11. Re:Posting on website wouldn't be enough by SpectreGadget · · Score: 1

      And if someone doesn't like reading the liberal press and ignores it? You're saying we should all rely on the wonderful press?

      --
      Jim Harry
  12. tonight.... by cdf12345 · · Score: 2, Funny

    guess we know what state hax0rs will target tonight, trying to be the first to make a company "go public"

    way better that IPO'S!

    --
    Chicago2600.net more than a lifestyle, its a survival trait.
  13. ...posted in the basement with no lights. by janda · · Score: 5, Interesting

    To quote the parent:

    ...a notice on their website...

    Yea, all you need to do is find the white-on-white "click here" hyperlink.

    Like I'm supposed to go out every day and check every credit card site, all my bank account sites, every mutual fund site, every stock brocker site, etc, etc, etc?

    Why? Why does the company that has been hacked have to engage in a deliberate act (e-mail, snail mail, phone calls, whatever) except for this? Why not force companies to own up to their mistakes?

    --
    Karma: Food Fight (Mostly affected by Date Plate).
    1. Re:...posted in the basement with no lights. by delta407 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Like I'm supposed to go out every day and check every credit card site, all my bank account sites, every mutual fund site, every stock brocker site, etc, etc, etc?
      Worse yet, even if you were to somehow check every website on a regular basis, and somehow find the notice (which the law does not give guidelines for, AFAIK), this only covers part of the issue. The other and far more difficult problem: what about when this information gets stolen and the company doesn't notice?

      This seems like a step in the right direction, but the law seems far too loose to be of any practical value.
    2. Re:...posted in the basement with no lights. by janda · · Score: 2, Informative

      To quote the parent:

      The other and far more difficult problem: what about when this information gets stolen and the company doesn't notice?

      There's something in the laws already about how you cannot be held responsible if somebody commits crimes using your materials as long as you make a good faith effort to report it.

      For example, if you find your car gone, you report it stolen, and the next day it's used in a bank robbery, you are usually held innocent unless they have your face on the videotape or something.

      Which won't help any company in CA. As soon as somebody there gets hacked, and the attorney general starts seeing enough reports, they'll be investigated. Even worse, they might be forced to admit that they don't know what is going on with their servers.

      --
      Karma: Food Fight (Mostly affected by Date Plate).
    3. Re:...posted in the basement with no lights. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't worry, all the privacy nuts will check it every day for you and send out their little newsletters (with proper opt-in of course!) to summarize everything for you.

  14. I'm suprised... by Tokerat · · Score: 2, Interesting


    ...that this WASN'T required by law before!

    --
    CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
  15. a notice on their website? by itallushrt · · Score: 2, Funny

    Does anyone actually expect american express or a similar large company to post publicly on thier website that they were 0wnz3rd?

    If so are they going to post a list of everyone who's information was possibly lifted?

    1. Re:a notice on their website? by CVaneg · · Score: 1
      Does anyone actually expect american express or a similar large company to post publicly on thier website that they were 0wnz3rd?

      I don't think that will be a problem. I'm sure the crackers will take care of that part for them.

  16. I can just see the conversation on 1337 IRC chans by Pento · · Score: 5, Funny

    (Translated to English, for readability purposes only.)

    1337 h4xxor> The company I broke into published it in the morning newspaper!!!1!1!
    5kr1p7 k1dd13> That's nothing!1!! I made the evening news!11!!!1!1

  17. Correction: 0wnx0r3d by dupper · · Score: 5, Funny

    Aha, spelling Nazis, now the shoe is on the other foot!

  18. Darn slashdot editors! by cK-Gunslinger · · Score: 1

    Always making spelling mistakes! It's 0\/\/N3D!

    1. Re:Darn slashdot editors! by Zog+The+Undeniable · · Score: 1
      Actually, if you'd ever played Quake II, you'd know it's "pwned".

      RJKing: i pwned in that map, ll4m4s
      Player: bfg wh0r3

      --
      When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
  19. Re:At least they're doing something sorta producti by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    good idea, poor implementation
    considering most people dont know they are "0wn3d" for a while, what good will this do. there is probably hundreds of laws dealing with credit card fraud why add another.
    if a company has a file or some kind of hard copy with cc numbers and that material gets stolen or lost do they then have to notify everyone of the breach?
    i do live in this state and wounder why they waste there time passing something that will be so extremely hard to enforce.
    seems to me that if I did business with a company and they told me they had given up my cc, id feel like my gf told me to go get a "check up" because she mysteriously contracted herpes.
    I'd drop them like a hot potato

  20. Move... by Mullen · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Instead of fixing their security, companies will just find it cheaper to just move their servers out of California.

    --
    Linux O Muerte!
    1. Re:Move... by jeffy124 · · Score: 4, Informative

      interesting idea, except that a CA senator introduced a similar bill for national basis last week. (RTFA) Second paragraph happens to also mention that it dont matter where a company is physically located, they just have to have customers in CA.

      --
      The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
    2. Re:Move... by frodo+from+middle+ea · · Score: 1

      How will that matter ?
      In the true tredition of slashdot, i haven't read the article. But isn't a business albeit a web business legally binding to the laws of the state where it is registered ?
      The physical location of the servers should be immeterial, or is it too rational to expect ?

      --
      for the last time people, I am "frodo from middle eaRTH", not "middle eaST".
    3. Re:Move... by taped2thedesk · · Score: 0

      Sorry if this is a stupid question... but does California have the power to do this? I'm sure there are ways around it, but I thought states couldn't regulate interstate commerce...

    4. Re:Move... by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 3, Informative

      I just got home a few hours ago from a seminar where I heard a Real Lawyer discussing this exact question.

      If you advertise in a California paper and sell to a California resident, that's governed by California law even if your corporate home is in another state.

      If you have a branch in California, same deal. You're considered to be doing business *in* California, as opposed to across state lines.

      There are a lot of complicated rules about what consitutes "doing business in" a state, rules which evolved back in the meatspace era.

      Remember all those "void where prohibited" disclaimers? Those were short for "If your state doesn't allow this, I'm not offering it there, so I'm not soliciting business from anyone in your state".

      All legal errors in the above are my fault. If you get in trouble because you got your legal education from Slashdot, that's your fault.

    5. Re:Move... by Bombcar · · Score: 1

      No, most likely they'll just stop holding credit card numbers. After the transaction has completed THEY DON'T NEED THE NUMBER anymore!!!

      Bleh.

    6. Re:Move... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      well, if another state passed a law prohibiting disclosure of security breaches, i guess all American capitalism would be ended...

  21. internet is not only place where CC #s are stolen by civilengineer · · Score: 5, Informative

    When I first started using Credit cards 3 years ago, I never used it on the internet for 6 months, fearing the consequenses of a theft. But, one fine day, my statement showed charges from some cruise/vacation website and some discounts program I never heard of before for $200!! I got mad and called the credit card company and it took them 2 months to fix it. Then, I decided, what the heck, let's use'em on internet since the numbers will be stolen anyway. :(

    --

    New year Resolution: Don't change sig this year
  22. What's worse? by MoeMoe · · Score: 4, Funny

    companies whose systems are cracked...are required to report the intrusion either by email, snail mail, a notice on their website, or by notification to the news media.

    Now I'm not sure what I should be more afraid to find in my email, this or spam....

    --
    Business \Busi"ness\, n.;
    A scam in which all people involved perceive as beneficial...
    1. Re:What's worse? by GreatOgre · · Score: 1

      Now I'm not sure what I should be more afraid to find in my email, this or spam....

      How abouth your email reader thinking this is spam?

    2. Re:What's worse? by DaCool42 · · Score: 1

      and....what if the email notifying you of the "cracking" is actually spoofed? I can see it now. "Go to this link and enter your CC # to see if yours was stolen"

      --

      ----
      All of whose base are belong to the what-now?
    3. Re:What's worse? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't worry, $BIG COMPANY is in the spam filter already, so you'll never see the mail about your CC# being stolen.

  23. So what happens... by dethl · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When the hacker breaks into the notification server?

    Even if they didn't steal any information (other than some emails on the server) they could scare the living crap out of alot of people....like a BIG practical joke.

    Then the company would have to send out another email via the notification system to their customers....this ought to be interesting...why trust the company that claimed it was hacked yet it wasn't?

    --
    "Some fight for law. Some fight for justice. What will you fight for? One day, you will see."
    1. Re:So what happens... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Time to logoff AOL now, mommy needs the computer.

    2. Re:So what happens... by SageLikeFool · · Score: 1

      Considering most companies sell your information to other companies because they just know how much we all love junk mail, I find it hard to believe they only have the information in one place.

  24. Law takes effect Tuesday, July 1 (tomorrow)." by djupedal · · Score: 3, Funny

    Increased costs take effect Wednesday, July 2 (the day after the day tomorrow).

    1. Re:Law takes effect Tuesday, July 1 (tomorrow)." by BiggerIsBetter · · Score: 1

      Probably. But the catch is that it should really cost a whole lot less, once the improvements are in place.

      It's commonly speculated that huge numbers of hacks go unreported, particularly in the financial sector. If the result of having to own up about it is an increase in security (to improve company image as a result of not being owned so often), I would expect that related losses would go down considerably. If nothing else, the insurance underwriters should reduce costs for those who make improvements, and increase those who don't. It's in everbodies interests to make companies accountable for hacks, and for them to fix the problems. I think any bleating about costs going up will just be an excuse to fleece the consumer over a longer-term.

      --
      Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
    2. Re:Law takes effect Tuesday, July 1 (tomorrow)." by djupedal · · Score: 1

      The law will require free credit reports on a regular basis...one year I think.

      These cost $15 and up now...who do we think that cost is going to be passed on to? Do we believe the credit reporting agencies will absorb it?

      No, they will pass it on to the businesses they sell to now, and those businesses will pass it on to the consumer, just as they always do. Thus the cost of credit will go up.

      It is the consumer fleecing that I'm referring to.

    3. Re:Law takes effect Tuesday, July 1 (tomorrow)." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      It's commonly speculated that huge numbers of hacks go unreported, particularly in the financial sector.

      Um, no. IT IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE THAT HUGE NUMBERS OF HACKS GO UNREPORTED, PARTICULARLY IN THE FINANCIAL SECTOR . Especially the financial sector, because the "your money is safe with us" facade must be kept up at all times.

      Think about it. As soon as "bank y" can start running newspaper ads saying "bank x was hacked last month, detailed account information for over 300,000 people was stolen, our servers have never been hacked, and we'll give you free checking for the first year", where do you think the money is going to go?

      For "bank x" and "bank y", you can substitute almost anything in the financial sector. Mutual fund companies, stock brockers, credit card companies, you name it. In the financial world, loss of fiscal accountability spells doom.

      I will note that the SEC does require private disclosure to the SEC about the more serious hacks that occur, but nothing and I repeat nothing ever gets out to the public.

      I work in the financial world, I know whereof I speak. It's why I'm posting as an anonymous coward.

    4. Re:Law takes effect Tuesday, July 1 (tomorrow)." by janda · · Score: 1

      To quote the parent:

      The law will require free credit reports on a regular basis...one year I think.

      Federal law requires that credit card companies send you a notice at least once a year if somebody has looked into your history, and they must provide a list of those people for free or a small fee already.

      If the California law says they have to give it to you for free, I'll probably be moving.

      --
      Karma: Food Fight (Mostly affected by Date Plate).
    5. Re:Law takes effect Tuesday, July 1 (tomorrow)." by BiggerIsBetter · · Score: 1

      "I will note that the SEC does require private disclosure to the SEC about the more serious hacks that occur, but nothing and I repeat nothing ever gets out to the public."

      Hmm.

      Bank X: Hey, SEC, we lost these punter's money.
      SEC: Um, OK. Don't let it happen again.
      Bank X: Uh, sure. No problem.
      SEC: Fancy a game of golf?

      Private disclosure to the SEC is all well and good from a keep-it-to-ourselves-and-the-boys-but-don't-tell-t he-people-whose-money-it-was view of disclosure, but hopefully this new bill will force disclosure to the actual customers who provide funds for these companies. Something tells me it won't be that easy though.

      --
      Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
    6. Re:Law takes effect Tuesday, July 1 (tomorrow)." by djupedal · · Score: 1

      I worked for a large west coast bank myself, once upon a time. So I see your whereof, and call.

      I'm talking now only about the credit agencies, and the fees they charge.

      While your points are valid, I believe they are another part of the entire credit/financial web, ebb and flow, and thus outside my comment.

      Ok so we changed the topic to banks.... I mean, if the butterfly principal is true, and as small an action as an incorrect digit on a beauty shop balance sheet in Peru can affect the price of raw sugar in Bulgaria ten years hence, how can we actually define locallized impacts such as a new law governing credit reporting?

      Also, remember when the banks told us that ATMs would reduce fees? I'm still waiting.

      Banks? Because that's where the money is....

    7. Re:Law takes effect Tuesday, July 1 (tomorrow)." by Sylver+Dragon · · Score: 1

      Think about it. As soon as "bank y" can start running newspaper ads saying "bank x was hacked last month, detailed account information for over 300,000 people was stolen, our servers have never been hacked, and we'll give you free checking for the first year", where do you think the money is going to go?

      So you mean that banks may have another point to compete on, security? And that I as the consumer will have the ability to determine if a bank has been having problems getting its act together from a security stand-point?
      Maybe I am misreading you, but how is this a bad thing? I get more knowledge about the company holding my money and info, banks get another point on which to compete, and I get to find out if my CC info has been stolen before I start seeing charges on my statement for trips to the Bahamas. As far as I am concerned this law is a Good Thing. Sure, it may cause an increse in banking/CC fees, but those will probably be minimal, and will get eaten up in the next price war.

      --
      Necessity is the mother of invention.
      Laziness is the father.
  25. Yep, Cali intent on driving businesses out. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In their zeal to be so socialist, capitalism is being driven out. Their nice deficit is proof positive. Oh well, their loss, our gain.

  26. Need another law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Informing customers prior to account signup/transaction about whether or not information prone to identity theft is to be entrusted to some third world nation.

    I definitly want to know who I'm doing business with.

    1. Re:Need another law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I do appreciate my post being moderated up into the daylight. Maybe a little humor in there but it is a serious issue.

      Datacenters for credit card companies and investment firms are overseas now. Medical records too. Seems like a whole lot of bad news could come from that.

  27. Re:I can just see the conversation on 1337 IRC cha by frodo+from+middle+ea · · Score: 1

    Your credit card number could be stolen, find out more ....at eleven.

    --
    for the last time people, I am "frodo from middle eaRTH", not "middle eaST".
  28. July 1 is New Law Day by TopShelf · · Score: 1

    There are several other state laws kicking in as well - here in Indiana there's a new anti-spam law (modeled after several others and unlikely ever to get dusted off) targeting forged email headers...

    Now if we can only get Daylight Savings Time here we might step into the 20th Century (nevermind the 21st!).

    --
    Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
    1. Re:July 1 is New Law Day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      bah....daylight savings time is weak.

  29. California's rules are... well, Californian by !Squalus · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Sorry for that. While this is good for the Consumer, it is even better for hosting companies and businesses deciding to move elsewhere. The sad fact is that without really good analytical tools - most companies do not know what was cracked at all.

    Tripwire is one that comes to mind, and if used properly is an excellent forensic tool. Too bad some schmoes don't know that. I know an IT director who believes that wiping everything down and reinstalling from a backup image is the way to go. Of course - backups aren't 100% reliable and you tend to lose data - but who am I and what do I know?

    Trust me - that works until you lose really critical data. Then you are screwed buddy. Oh well, that's NMP. Not my problem.

    Funny thing is that if they don't know theywere cracked, how do they know when to notify you that your account or data might have been cracked and hijacked?

    Think about it. If they were too stupid to catch it, how will they ever know who to notify and who not to notify? When you cannot trust your data, everything else becomes meaningless.

    I wonder if these notices will lead to more false insurance claims from losses due to cracking? After all, how can the banks, credit card companies, etc. prove diddly when they don't even know for certain that you have been cracked or if their data is accurate or just total hogwash.

    Would you trust a business that notified you that your account might have been cracked and you could have some of your valuable precious data being floated around the Internet?

    Of course, they could have avoided all that by using real equipment, but you won't know the truth any more than they know the truth.

    --
    All Ad hominem replies happily ignored as the sender shall be deemed to lack the faculties to comprehend the equation.
    1. Re:California's rules are... well, Californian by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      deciding to move elsewhere
      RTFA. They mention that if the company has customers in CA, they must abide by this law.

      Though, the rest of your post raises some very good points that a company must actually know they've been cracked.

    2. Re:California's rules are... well, Californian by Large+Green+Mallard · · Score: 1

      Tripwire is ok, providing you don't mind getting a call every month from some dickhead (the local one in my case seems barely able to speak english too.. woohoo) trying to sell you more tripwire products and who is unaware of what "remove me from your list and never call me again" means..

    3. Re:California's rules are... well, Californian by wirelessbuzzers · · Score: 1

      Tripwire is one that comes to mind, and if used properly is an excellent forensic tool. Too bad some schmoes don't know that.

      Yeah, Tripwire is great, but it wouldn't help you know what's been stolen. It only detects modifications to files; it doesn't tell you if someone ran a 'sploit, sniffed a password or two, and lifted your cc# database. The access times would be useless too, as it's probably accessed way too much for that. You'd have to keep very detailed logs to figure out what had happened, and even then it's difficult to figure it out.

      --
      I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
    4. Re:California's rules are... well, Californian by !Squalus · · Score: 1

      but it wouldn't hlp you know what's been stolen.

      True, if you don't know there was a break-in, you don't know what has been stolen. All the more argument for encyrpted traffic, encrypted passwords, and encrypted data. What you ideally should achieve is something where the effort is not worth it. Plan-text traffic is a method that should not work with sensitive account information.

      If your credit card database is "lifted" it should be meaningless. Sniffing passwords on encrypted traffic should be pointless as well. Ideally it should be garbage data that gives you nada but an account or two (of which you have no idea of limits, etc.) of questionable value for the effort involved. Of course, if you really want to waste your time working at it...

      As for access times and modifications - there are things like Tripwire Manager which should make sorting through the access logs easier than just reading paper.

      Failing to build in difficulty is what gets people in trouble with sensitive information. Dealing in plain text or easily guessed passwords is usually the first failure. For instance - many ATM and Check cards machines onl allow 6 charcater passwords by default. Anything greater than that will be rejected by most credit card machines at grocery stores. That means that you have a known limitation within that space.

      Another thing that credit card transactions do not require enough is the "card-present" validation feature (requiring that the cp valid # is retrieved or included at the time of purchase). This one peeves a lot of merchants because they have no way of knowing if that *credit card* is actually a check-card and then they get hit with higher fees for accepting those cards by the processors.

      Electronic commerce is not a science, but it should be a practice. Unfortunately, you can't just say "it won't work because it is too difficult." It should be difficult. If it is merely too easy - every fool out there will be cracking at it all day long.

      Understand, this is not a flame. I don't work for tripwire, and I don't really care about what others do for themselves (or fail to do). I just find the "that will never work" attitude expressed by so many to be pointless.

      What suggestions do you have? I would be interested in knowing what you would suggest is a good idea or method of securing data, the forensic trail, etc.

      --
      All Ad hominem replies happily ignored as the sender shall be deemed to lack the faculties to comprehend the equation.
    5. Re:California's rules are... well, Californian by hellfire · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Would you trust a business that notified you that your account might have been cracked and you could have some of your valuable precious data being floated around the Internet?

      Short answer... yes.

      Why? Because it means they are paying attention and trying to make an effort at security.

      It is doubtful all attacks will be prevented, and its also doubtful all attacks will be monitored. However, all banks will experience attacks by crackers. If one slips by and its detected, I would want to know about it. It means to me that my institution cares. Obviously its my money so I should be informed and I should direct the company what to do.

      My bank recently, and voluntarily, informed me of an attack where it thought my check card could have been stolen. They offered to replace it at my discretion, free of charge. Changing card numbers, simple effective security. I jumped at it and double checked my statement and have had no problems.

      To say it may be a burden on businesses or businesses can't be expected to catch crackers is silly, because its not a burden and they can be caught. Banks are notorious for trying to pass the burden of securing money to their customers. I've seen banks refuse to reimburse people for funds stolen directly from their account, and had to be taken to court even though it was clear that the signature on the withdrawl slip was not the customers!! Banks have to step up and provide a secure environment for investors and laws like this raise the bar to where it needs to be.

      --

      "All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"

    6. Re:California's rules are... well, Californian by wirelessbuzzers · · Score: 1

      I'm honored to know that at least someone values my opinion :-)

      One of the most important considerations in security is what you're defending against.

      Encryption is an excellent method for protecting against password sniffing, and should be used basically everywhere you're sending passwords. It doesn't, however, go very far in defending database integrity, because the databases are on another tier from the data users. You might encrypt the link with the server to prevent poeple from reading/changing stuff on the wire, but if your database gets rooted or your data-consuming app is vulnerable, you're screwed anyway.

      Vulnerable scripts are a huge deal. String interpolation attacks are very common, and probably still an effective means of lifting cc# databases. All the encryption in the world doesn't save you from these, and access checking only goes so far. You really have to secure the scripts as well.

      Buffer overruns and similar exploits can root your box, and then it's game over if the hacker is worth his salt, crypto or none. A firewall can probably protect your database server, but you'd have trouble protecting your webservers this way. For that, you'd have to have an up-to-date OS, and some sort of intrusion alarm. If your webserver gets rooted, it won't take a good hacker too long to attack your database, and he'll get loads of information useful for another attack, but if you detect it fast enough (and are lucky), you probably won't get much sensitive data stolen.

      With bank PINs, the only way to attack them is an online attack, unless you've bugged their network (the sensitive parts of which are well-separated from the internet), in which case they probably have bigger problems. For this reason, 6 characters is easily enough for an ATM PIN: if it freezes your account for a day after 5 wrong guesses, it would take 300 years to guess on average, and assuming they notify you, you'd be doing something about it long before then.

      I'm no forensics expert, but what I do know is that it is usually darned-near impossible to figure out what someone looked at after a break, with or without tripwire (which is an excellent tool for seeing what was *changed*, but if they're only looking, it is much less useful). Append-only logfiles are good for this purpose, so that should offer some protection against being rooted or against passwords being guessed/sniffed/social-engineered/whatever. However, a vulnerable script leaves little traces of being exploited unless you log every input anyone passes to it. This could be prohibitively expensive, although it wouldn't be too hard to grep through it once you know you've been broken into.

      As for making things difficult, you are right. That should keep most script kiddies off your site, and given all the insecure sites out there, people will seek easier targets. If a black hat really wants to crack you (which could cause more damage than script kiddies), it'll afford a human on your end more time to notice and respond. But oftentimes, there will be a quick hole from a bug due to the increased complexity of the system, which would allow someone to break it almost instantly. This could balance out the benefits of "difficult" security schemes.

      --
      I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
  30. MOD PARENT DOWN : -1, IDIOT DUMBASS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    AC IDIOT

    1. Re:MOD PARENT DOWN : -1, IDIOT DUMBASS by corkhead0 · · Score: 1

      And that's coming from an AC...

  31. I'm curious... by mabu · · Score: 4, Funny

    Do you think that a little "This site powered by Windows 2000" icon on the bottom of the page be considered appropriate notification?

  32. Heh. by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

    The best bit is when sites who've been quietly amassing yer personal info have to turn around and say, "Uhhhh, because we were dumb, all this information we gathered without your consent is now in the hands of someone who will do worse stuff with it than us."

    --
    ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
  33. Moving Out Of California by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I do agree that this would be a great thing - but maybe nationwide rather than just in California. Us as consumers deserve to know when our information is compromised, although, enacting such a law is just going to add another reason to the list of reasons for businesses to move elsewhere. Maybe when I get my degree in CS in December I'll just have to move out of state to find work.

    1. Re:Moving Out Of California by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      degree in CS?.... Find work??.... HHAAAA HAHAHAHA AHAHA

      Thats a good one!

  34. Re:MOD PARENT DOWN YOU IDIOTS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    MOD THIS PARENT UP!!!!!!

  35. Re:internet is not only place where CC #s are stol by jeffy124 · · Score: 1

    what probably happened is that your bank got r00ted, which is where someone got your CC#. Or, your ISP's billing system, some brick+mortar where you used your CC kept a database internet accessible, etc.

    The _only_ sure-fire way to prevent getting your CC# stolen is to not have a CC to start with. But that still doesnt protect you from identity theft as someone can open a card in your name if they have your SSN from somewhere.

    --
    The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
  36. No cards! by Digitaltodd · · Score: 1

    I have no CCs so its NMP!

    --
    You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone. - Al Capone (1899-1947)
  37. Geez, get it right!! by SkOink · · Score: 1, Redundant

    It should read:

    f00: 3y3 0W|\|x0r j00r kr3d17 K4rD w17 m4h 1337 5kr1p7 K1dd13 P0\/\/4h!!!111111~

    I mean, the least you editors can do is quote accurately.

    --
    ---- I'll take you in a Hunt deathmatch any day.
  38. Re:At least they're doing something sorta producti by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In short, you are better off keeping a hard copy, if the paper copy gets stolen then you don't have to notifiy anyone.

  39. yeah, but.... by hashish · · Score: 1, Insightful

    this is only good if they know they have been compromised!

  40. Agreed, Parent Poster NEEDS ClueX4 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It doesn't matter where the freaking server is.

    What matters is where the customer is. Damn, this is plain talk, not lawyerise, in the first coupla paragraphs of the law. It's in the link.

    Use the Link, Lurch.

  41. Re:internet is not only place where CC #s are stol by janda · · Score: 1

    You started using credit cards only three years ago? Why, in my day we had to use credit cards made out of stone, uphill, both ways, in the snow...

    Seriously, you also have to consider "where" and "why" credit card numbes and such get stolen. For example, I've used credit cards over the net for (eeek! I'm old!) about 10 years, and the only problem I've had was some magazines that got charged to the card I use to pay my sister's account. That got fixed easily enough.

    In the 30ish years I've used things like checks and credit cards to pay for things, I've had (um....) one check forged (after my place broken into; I had reported it stolen and it didn't get cashed), the thing with my sister (which was from some telemarketer trying to get a bonus or something), and maybe one or two other things.

    Then again, there's my parents, who had people at their ISP using their credit card number to pay for porn sites.

    I suspect that if a lot of people who have their credit card information "stolen" would confess, they used it for one of those "increase your penis size while you get rich quick by getting a four year degree from an 'online university' so you can help your partner increase their bust size before you dump them to meet sexy russian women who want to help you get money from Nigeria" scams.

    I guess maybe it's a matter of trust. I switched my upstream provider from dimensional.com to kaosol.com because daud changed companies. I trust him; he and his crew have gone out of their way to try and help me, so they get my business.

    I'll guarantee you that the first company that sends me a "our servers may have been hacked" notice will lose my business forever.

    --
    Karma: Food Fight (Mostly affected by Date Plate).
  42. OMFGLOL U MAD3 4 M$ SUCKS JOKE! LOLOLROFLMAMMORP!1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  43. Encryption? by spike+it · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Whatever happened to encryption?

    1. Re:Encryption? by janda · · Score: 1

      This project is on a deadline, and we will meet that deadline.

      Add in the hoards of "month-degree" programmers, and you have a recipe for disaster,

      Which is not to say that I'm all that good at security, because I know I'm not.

      --
      Karma: Food Fight (Mostly affected by Date Plate).
  44. make them pay by slugo3 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    why not make the company responsible for notifying my credit card company? Or better yet make them pay for fraudulent charges that I could prove were from their negligance?
    They screwed up they should incur the cost of cleaning up the mess. If companies were responsible to that degree than watch how high security budgets would skyrocket. If they shouldnt be responsible to that degree with my sensitive information than why bother passing legislation like this?

  45. Re:MS Bank v1.1 in ksh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Look at the bottom of this page - MS has a Java database driver for UNIX systems, distributed as a .tar file (direct link, installation instructions). It looks like Microsoft uses ksh, not bash. And according to the FAQ, the driver itself is written in pure Java.

    There's something unsettling about all of this...

  46. Just means they installed... by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    Cygwin, like everyone else does in the first ten minutes with a Windows box.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  47. BUSINESS PLAN by goon+america · · Score: 4, Funny

    This is just an attempt to sell Microsoft a lot of stamps.

  48. I wonder by stephanruby · · Score: 1

    Is there an example of a company not doing this already?

  49. Actually, if you can prove it... by MickLinux · · Score: 1

    ... probably it is the credit card company who should enforce it; let them sue the negligent company.

    Does anyone know if there are VSA/MC policies on notifying them?

    --
    Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
  50. Gray Davis Angriest at these Thefts by org.earth.Citizen · · Score: 2, Funny

    Between the time the company notifies you and you receive your new card in the mail, that's damn near 14 days of sales tax he can't collect on purchases you might make

  51. New Twist by geronimo_jerry · · Score: 1

    I've thought of (maybe someone else has also) a new twist to this story:

    So Ms. Hacker knows of an unscrupulous company that has absolutely no intentions of ever conforming to this new law. Maybe Ms. Hacker works for this company and knows the policies inside and out. So Ms. Hacker decides to go on the rampage, hack the company and grab all the personal info of the client base. She waits. And waits. The company never reveals the intrusion, even though she KNOWS beyond a shadow of a doubt, the company is aware of the breach. What happens next? Ms. Hacker reveals in an anonymous manner, the details of the breach (concealing her information of course) and an example of the information stolen. Ok. Maybe she's not the smartest cookie, but hey, the world needs ditch diggers too.

    The moral of the story: This is a new way to get back at the company.

    Sure, it's a little far-fetched, but think of the possibilities.

    --
    Jerry Fletcher,
    Privacy Protection By:
    http://www.cotse.net/servicedetails.html
  52. Cracked but whos fault is it ? by felix9x · · Score: 1

    Ok I first though oh my God this is a great law how come they have not thought it up earlier.

    Now i think a bit more now consider this scenerio.

    Joe has a bit of investment he want to start a .Com selling a monthly service say a magazin subscription. But he likes to charge by page views.

    Joe has a big problem he cant use a third party creadit card gateway without not storing the acutaly creadit card numbers.

    The reason is becasue cc# are generaly designed for one time sales at your payless store next door they where never designed for micropayments.

    So Joe says ok i can use a service to store the billing info including the cc# on the gateways server so i am not liable !! Opps now i have to pay $$$ to the payment gateway for this extra service but i only have few bucks to start the business.

    Ok so Joe will now store the CC#. Considering Joe hires developers with any sence in security they will at the minumun put this data encrypted in a relational database. Where are we going to put the key ? In some file on the same server where the database resides ? What kind of security is this?

    Joe needs an auditing trail, cron jobs run by root to read the key files, firewall, ssl, security policy . How much will this now cost ?? $$$. Ok Joe will hopefuly install OpenBSD and the hell with it--I wont get cracked !! maybe

    Now secirously if one needs good protection multiple levels of security need to be implemented by professionals in the field. I am afraid that too many small businesses online or even large want to save costs and bypass security. Maybe this law will make then think again.

  53. ... and then they help the intruders. by swordfishBob · · Score: 2, Interesting

    How about that. Someone breaks partway into a system at my bank. The bank may not know exactly what has been compromised, but they then publish a list of what it could be. Intruder now knows how close they are to the money!

    --
    -- All your bass are below two Hz
  54. Hack Attacks by yintercept · · Score: 1
    When I think of all the little hack attacks, code red viruses and other odd blips showing up in server logs. When I think of the large number of login failures on LANs, and other security alerts that get raised on a daily basis, I cannot help but feel that this is an overkill.

    A good security worker will be treating a lot of false readings as possible security concerns. Despite all the audit trails, a thief looking for a backdoor just might find one that leaves an uncertain trail or possible no trail (for example someone might make a copy of a back up tape, or sniff the LAN.).

    Being conservative, I cannot help but think that everyday there is something that "might" be a security breach. If the data is in a company, the data just might have been compromised. To follow the law, companies would have to send out a letter everyday saying, "your data exists; therefore it may have been compromised."

    As for actual theft of credit card numbers. I've seen more of it happening at cash registers than in IT departments, but security is a matter of thinking what might happen, not what should or did happen.
    From Article: A criminal prosecuted under Pennsylvania's identity theft statute would have to steal more than $100,000 to get a minimum one-year prison term. A felony drug conviction for 2 grams of heroin or cocaine--worth about $200, according to the report--would result in the same minimum.

    But, to be frank, I think the legal community is looking at the wrong end of the equation. The credit card laws and credit card companies tend to make the merchant the villian when the system is doing very little to stop the actual criminal.

    The Courts say: "You stole $90,000...well shame on you...the merchant will now have to refund the money to the credit card company. Shame on you, see how much you just cost a merchant? you should feel really bad now."

  55. Bad/no credit to the rescue! by Kyn · · Score: 2, Funny

    The _only_ sure-fire way to prevent getting your CC# stolen is to not have a CC to start with. But that still doesnt protect you from identity theft as someone can open a card in your name if they have your SSN from somewhere.

    Ha! Finally, having bad/no credit is advantageous! They'll never be able to get a card in my name! Bwahaha!

  56. Prevention is far better than cure. by expro · · Score: 5, Insightful

    These rules are good. I think both notification and public notices of being hacked should be required. But merchants and customers should be smarter to start with.

    Many prominent ecommerce sites insist that if you buy with them, you have to open an account where your credit card info will be stored permanently (read the fine print on PayPal, for example, what happens when you try to erase it).

    In order to permit you to reuse the credit card number without reentering it later, it generally has to be stored in a place accessible to the web server applications, aka a very hackable location. They usually claim to protect this via n-bit encryption, but their application can easily decrypt it, generally meaning that a hacker who owns the web server can as well.

    If a brick-and-mortar merchant insisted on storing a xerox of the credit cards of all his customers in a filing cabinet on the sales room floor in case any time in the future they forgot their credit cards, I would still feel more secure than this sort of e-merchant makes me feel (because the volume of CC numbers is less and it can't be accessed remotely) than a database with millions of card numbers. There is a huge difference between temporarily using the credit card info in a transaction database and making it permanently available in an account database. Not only can transactions records be more-fully isolated from the web servers than account records, but in the transaction case, the most compromised is far less than the millions of credit card numbers compromised in an account database. You make yourself vulnerable forever if you do business with someone who wants to keep your credit card available in your account, and they probably will not even tell you if it is compromised.

    IMO, good merchants do not insist on storing your credit card number in the account, but rather permit you to manually reenter it every time. Just like all the Microsoft email conveniences that turn out to be security holes, this sort of ecommerce convenience is asking to have your credit card number abused, with no notification. The number is safer in your wallet or travelling across SSL than in a web-server database with millions of other credit cards.

    PayPal refuses to erase the account info even if you erase it. Perhaps this sort of law will eventually force irresponsible merchants to rethink the way they expose millions of cards to cracking. You can't hack what is not on the server.

    1. Re:Prevention is far better than cure. by felix9x · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes all the points you make are good but. It all about money. How much will it cost to implement layers of security that is needed to store the CC# safely? A small ecommerce site just dont have the capital to do it. Things would be much easier if we didnt have to deal with CC numbers directly. PayPal is a way to deal with this but common what ecommerce site will force somebody to get a paypal account anyway. PayPal is not the last work in Finantial Internet Transactions. Hey they are not even a bank. We are basicaly missing a secure infrastructure to do finantial personal transaction over the internet. At the end of the day we have Good Old CC number + ssl + who knows what. It would be nice if banks actualy got together and were serious about putting up the funds to create a new infrastructure. We have all the security technology to make it happen we can do authentication, encryption the right way but we dont have banks who want to go through with it.

    2. Re:Prevention is far better than cure. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The word is Financial.

  57. Re:internet is not only place where CC #s are stol by gh · · Score: 2, Informative

    I would say the majority of stolen CC #s are probably not on the net. Atleast personal ancedotal evidence seems to point in that direction. I've known atleast five cases, one of which being my parents who are generally anal in protecting their credit cards / bank accounts, in which the number was stolen and used. One interesting thing to note about these cases were that they all were either proven or most likely stolen at restaurants.

    The next time you're at a restaurant, receive the bill, and you're about to give the credit card to the waiter or waitress you may just want to consider how much trust is required for that transaction. The waiter takes your card, walks off and runs the card, and comes back with your receipt and card. In that amount of time out of your posession, the number, name, expiration date, and the bank information on the back of the card could all be easily copied.

  58. News media? by Hobobo · · Score: 1

    " or by notification to the news media"

    What is the malicous attack is the news media?

  59. Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now they know how *I* feel.

  60. Deficit by ceswiedler · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Well, we have a 32 billion dollar budget decficit, but at least...

    at least...

    at least we won't vote for a Republican.

  61. California is ahead on thinking about law. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1

    California is known for having more progressive laws.

  62. Makes Sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "A company that does business in California must notify any customer of such unauthorized access. Failing to notify consumers can result in the company being sued in civil court"

    Since trial lawyers write the laws in CA (and are the biggest contributors to the democratic party in CA) in order to faciltate them suing everyone for everything, this law makes perfect sense.

  63. An Idiom Nazi replies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's "boot", at least in most English countries

    1. Re:An Idiom Nazi replies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've always heard shoe. Maybe I live in a weird part of the US. Oh well, it's a stupid thing to say, anyway.

    2. Re:An Idiom Nazi replies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      at least in most English countries

      Read: "At least where I live, in England."

  64. Re: sorry.txt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Dear Sir

    Our main server (Windows 98) was hacked this morning. Our database (MS Access 97) has been compromised. Our security supervisor (MS Bob) was not able to detect the intrusion in time.

    Please excuse us: here are the data that has been compromised, we recommend you to change it...

    You name
    SS number
    Credit card number
    phone number
    email

    We would like you to know that, due to this attack, we upgraded our system. We now use Windows ME and Office XP

    Thank you for you attention...

  65. your sig by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone. - Al Capone (1899-1947)

    How you gonna buy the gun without a credit card?

  66. But I thought information wants to be FREE! by goldspider · · Score: 2, Funny
    This is NOT theft! There was no loss of property, and therefore no financial loss either!

    These credit card numbers weren't 'stolen', they were LIBERATED!

    --
    "Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
  67. What people should do... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 2, Insightful
    People should be responsible for poor security they implement.

    People should be responsible if they are negligent, I agree. OTOH, expecting perfect security, as some on this thread seem to be doing, is wishful thinking. The world doesn't work like that. Bank robberies happen, and sometimes they get away with it. Cracks happen, and sometimes they get away with that, too. You should take reasonable steps to secure your facilities and have a sensible contingency plan for when that security fails.

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    1. Re:What people should do... by ichimunki · · Score: 1

      Cracks happen

      Which is exactly why this law is such a good thing.

      --
      I do not have a signature
  68. OT, but worth a laugh by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 2, Funny
    Can you just bury it somewhere on the website which is the equivalent of a disused lavatory in an unlit basement with no stairs and a sign on the door saying "Beware of the Leopard"?

    While on holiday in the Lake District a while back, some friends and I were going up to the top of Scafell Pike, the highest point in England. One of the paths was particularly treacherous, very steep and with lots of stones that slipped under foot. (Not good for those of us uncomfortable with heights!) After a few hundred metres, we got to the top of the path, only to find a sign there, facing toward anyone who was about to go down it.

    It said, "Danger of death! Path under reconstruction! Keep off!"

    We were suitably impressed. :-)

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  69. So? They do that anyway... by wirelessbuzzers · · Score: 2, Informative

    Hackers have used this attack many times before. The most recent one that I remember was PayPal. They claimed the password database had been corrupted or something, and asked people to click the link and reenter their passwords. Got a whole lot of accounts that way.

    Someone else did it with a note that said they were putting a timer on service so that you had to log in every so often to keep your account active. People went and logged in by the thousands to the phony site they set up.

    --
    I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
  70. Re:internet is not only place where CC #s are stol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    one company that has done the same thing to me:

    "Chase Manhatten bank".

    i called and closed all my accounts with them.

  71. [childish sig comment] by wirelessbuzzers · · Score: 1

    My baysian filter can beat your baysian filter.

    Oh yeah? Well, my Bayesian filter is spelled right...

    --
    I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
  72. Sysadmins are freaking out! by goatbar · · Score: 1

    Sounds like a good law until you find out some of the implications. How do you know if a computer contains person information under the law? If you are at for example a university of california institution and an email with someone's ssn in it is on a random computer that gets hacked. The responsible sysadmin (thankfully not me) is must notify that individual. How do you find out which of thousands of personal machines by staff has someone else person info... many machines a day get hacked at just one UC campus. It is near impossible for the campus I'm at to comply... I do like the intent of the law, just not some of the implications

  73. Encryption--important but not a cure-all... by wirelessbuzzers · · Score: 1

    It certainly helps to keep your cc# db encrypted, possibly using syskey or the like to access it. But remember, the database is there for a good reason--there are lookups run against it all the time (heck, otherwise you could just airwall it). So you have to be able to decrypt it, and that generally means that if someone roots either the box it's sitting on, or one of the boxes that does lookups against it, all your base are belong to them.

    --
    I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
  74. It might get just like accounting... by leeet · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Where a certified accountant needs to check and make sure everything is up to a certain standard.

    That's good news, more IT jobs coming up?

    --
    -- Leeeter than leet
    1. Re:It might get just like accounting... by RoboOp · · Score: 1

      Already exists. IT Auditing. You can even become certified in it.

      --
      "First you get the Linux, then you get the power, THEN you get the women"
  75. Bill covers more than just California businesses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The bill covers California residents, not businesses. In other words, if you do business with any resident of California, you are affected by this bill. Moving to Nevada (a common method of avoiding California's outrageous taxes and crazy State Officials *cough*GrayDavis*cough*) does not help you in this case.

    From the text of the bill:

    This bill, operative July 1, 2003, would require a state agency, or a person or business that conducts business in California, that owns or licenses computerized data that includes personal information, as defined, to disclose in specified ways, any breach of the security of the data, as defined, to any resident of California whose unencrypted personal information was, or is reasonably believed to have been, acquired by an unauthorized person.

  76. A notification on their website in lawyerspeak by DirkDaring · · Score: 1

    "...are required to report the intrusion either by email, snail mail, a notice on their website, or by notification to the news media."

    So the company puts it in size 1 font buried somewhere deep on their news page that hardly anyone reads after having a lawyer word it in such a way that normal users will have zero clue what it says.

    Yep, that should work well.

    Dirk

  77. Website notification preview by Atario · · Score: 1

    Here's this week's list of stolen credit card information.

    • Name: Nigel Branthwaite
      Number: 4897 6215 7894 1236
      Exp: 02/04
      Sec Code: 845
    • Name: Susan Dandrige
      Number: 9815 9815 1265 7493
      Exp: 05/05
      Sec Code: 087
    • Name: Valerie McCandless
      Number: 1569 1598 3565 9855
      Exp: 12/03
      Sec Code: 196
    • Name: Jose Suarez
      Number: 1859 3584 6188 1518
      Exp: 07/06
      Sec Code: 659
    • Name: Huong Nguyen
      Number: 5899 1594 2987 1926
      Exp: 01/05
      Sec Code: 475
    Thanks, and check back next week!
    --
    "A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
  78. Will we see cracked OS stats? by SysKoll · · Score: 1

    Back when the attrition.org site was still counting defacements, you had an interesting stat: The number of defacements per OS version.

    It would be very interesting to keep tabs on the OS versions of cracked systems, if only to avoid recommending them to new ecommerce sites.

    Of course, this supposes that the cracked company will want to add shame to embarassment. Hmmm, that will probably require a little nudge. Maybe friendly BOFHs will "leak" the OS version info in memos titled "I told you so, you freakin' management morons"? Aaaah, that would be the day...

    That said, I got an email titled "Please look at that document" that contained the full customer file of a cleaning company, complete with billing info, that they kept in an Excel spreadsheet. Who needs crackers when you have Microsoft MAPI worms?

    -- SysKoll
    --

    --
    Mad science! Robots! Underwear! Cute girls! Full comic online! http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/

  79. My experience in this matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Background: my wife and I each have credit cards from a credit union. These are *excellent* cards: incredibly low rate, incredibly high limit, no fee.

    Well, we do a bit of on-line shopping, so I wasn't entirely surprised when our number got 0wnz3rd. How did we find out? Not from the statement. First time, got a letter: Dear sir, we've been notified by Visa that your number may have been compromised. Please give us a call to confirm receipt of this letter. So I call them up, they say they'll cancel the account and issue new cards. Couple months later, same story, but with the other card, and this time, instead of sending a letter, they're calling me at my daytime phone number. I haven't seen any bogus charges, so I'm assuming that merchants notified Visa when the discovered intrusions, and Visa notified my CU.

    So... my experience with getting notified in such cases is very good. Then again, the institution I'm dealing with has historically treated me very well.

  80. Already so in some places by Erisynne · · Score: 1

    In states like mine (MD), it's already law. I can get free credit reports every 60 days if I want.

    Despite being a pseudo-tech wasteland, MD has its finer points. :)

    --
    ---- My Design, Code, Ruby on Rails blog: http://www.slash7.com/
  81. Buying furni in the Phillipines by loggerhead · · Score: 1
    This is great news. For those of you (an increasing number I am sure) who have had credit card numbers stolen, the amount of inconvenience this brings is horrendous.

    Even more catastrophic is the theft of check-card numbers because unlike credit cards, funds are often debited IMMEDIATELY from your account. If you use a check-card, take heed. Although check-cards proudly stamp VISA and MASTERCARD and promote the flexibility this grants, these cards ARE NOT subject to the same fraud protections as traditional credit cards.

    When my checkcard number (never used online and always protected and in my possession) took a ~$8,000 tour of Phillipines furniture stores (while I was still happily at home just days after payday) the shock of having a $20 transaction denied and a $0.37 balance was incredible.

    I raced into the bank and was casually told that their system had been "compromised" and yet the smiling bank functionary offered to give me a new check card on the spot and to report the incident (have me fill out a form) to their fraud department. I was frustrated, to say the least, by the almost complete lack of concern.

    Not only was the intial reaction of the bank frustrating, but because the institution views check-cards much the same as traditional checks, their policies for handling fraud were the same as for investigating check fraud - time consuming and unprotective and inconsiderate.

    While reclaiming my money (the meager sum of my $8,000 life savings) would take weeks, require me to take several days off from work to report continuing transactions, close accounts, cancel direct deposits, fax depositions, contact credit agencies, protest fees for late payments and returned checks, cancel plans for a short vacation, and borrow money for groceries and gas, I found that the bank was not willing to share any information concerning the theft of my check-card number, saying only that the number WAS stolen from their system during a MASSIVE theft of numbers. There was no effort to inform customers. The bank's official policy as quoted to me, was to "wait and see whose numbers were used and then fix it." The bank officer who told me this then said that was why she "was thinking about getting rid of her check card too."

    While there were processes in place to fix the finacial situation, no one could do anything to salve the emotional and mental stress. And never did the bank exhibit any sense of working quickly since it was their fault the number was stolen.

    Although I did EVENTUALLY get my money restored to a new account, the consequences will last for a long time. Some creditors simply refused to remove late payment status from my credit reports and account histories.

    So hurrah for California! As more and more people suffer similar tiring consequences, we should hope that a few more of our lawmakers recognize the seriousness and force banks and merchants to take responsibility for notifing customers following a hack attack.

    I urge anyone using a check card to contact your banking institution about the protections they offer. I imagine that you will find few protections and that the institutions have NO plan to either inform customers or to assist customers whose numbers are stolen from the institution itself. So take heed, and consider dropping the check-card in favor of a conventional credit card.

    For the rest of the nation we are left to the whims of our banks and merchants to deal with identity theft. Quite simply there needs to be national identity theft legislation.