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On Obtaining Appropriate Compensation...
wpc4 asks: "I've been working at my current place of employment in California for going on 2.5 years. I work for a rather big HMO providing IT support for over 2000 users. In my time there I have had no negative feedback, I am the "go to" for the department, I have improved our service area's image to other IT departments in our organization, had one promotion, and so forth. I am currently making over $5k less than the minimum for my title, while some new employees just got hired with the same title and lesser skills as myself and were hired on at over 30% more than I make, yet I have 2.5 years of seniority. Since I'm not union I don't appear to have any way of trying to get myself compensated appropriately, is there anything in the California labor laws that I can pull into play? Any suggestions at all before I look for other employment?"
Squeaky wheel gets the grease (or replaced... but if you're going to look elsewhere anyway, shouldn't hurt to ask.)
...have you tried asking?
The points you make are all reasonable. If you're genuinely as useful as you claim, management would certainly be receptive, especially in light of the discrepancy between your salary and that of the new hires (which they may simply not realize until you point it out). This could very well end up being a non-issue for you.
And don't threaten to quit on your initial approach, if you do ask. Most of my bosses have never responded well to confrontational employees, if they weren't given the chance to right a wrong in the first place.
I doubt there is any sort of labor-law to protect you from an employer who doesn't want to pay you competitively. Try threatening to quit unless they bring your pay back into line, then quit when they refuse.
Get some legal advice for your situation. You can usually call an attorney and talk with him/her for 30 min for free. Then ask them if you have a case and whether they think they can win for you. Also, ask if you really have a chance to win some increased compensation and how much they think it would be. Figure out your cost-benefit in all this, and then decide whether or not to proceed.
Instead of wading through a million IANAL posts on Slashdot, consult AL.
No sig for you!!
Ask for a raise
and YANAL. So go find a L.
Yawn.
There is often a "loyalty penalty" in organizations. Someone who works for many years and gets yearly raises will make less than someone who comes in at market rates. It sucks but it's very common.
Advice: on VPS providers
I am currently making over $5k less than the minimum for my title
Huh? How can you be making less than the minimum? What minimum are you talking about?
1. Update your resume and get it out there.
2.Approach your boss and HR about a salary adjustment. Not a raise, a salary adjustment.
A Salary adjustment is justified by bringing your compensation in line with new hires with the same title and grade.
A Raise is based on merit and a review.
Then again, is $200/month after taxes worth raising a stink? I tend to not worry until the discrepancy is closer to 10%.
Either way, first get the resume out there for a week or two. You will need to see what is happening incase the alternative given by the company is that you will have to wait for your review.
Just remember, a salary is better than unemployment.
There is no law to protect you, only company policy. Unless you really want the definition of "at will employment."
Or to learn how a 1 person layoff comes about.
..."You are lucky to have a job in this economy so shut up and take it" post.
So let's pipe down and not have to wade through another million of them, hm?
Seniority should mean crap imo. I think this concept of seniority is blown to shreds when the less senior member of a department is more valuable and know more then the senior ranking member.
Talk about value. You have a value to this company. If you guess that value, and believe you should be paid more then act on it. If you are wrong (over inflated ego) be prepared to be slapped down.
-Malakai
-Malakai
A Dragon Lives in my Garage
Remember, wages are not set by fairness but by supply and demand. Is it really fair that someone who picks fruit 12 hours a day in 100 degree heat gets $4 per hour while a PHB gets $30 per hour to sit in an air-conditioned cubicle and think? If other companies are paying more than your current pay for your current work, that is important to both you and your company. I would mention that I have recently noticed that market rates for my work are much higher than my current pay; that I very much like my job; that I definitely want to stay with my current employer; and that I am feeling tempted to consider higher-paying alternatives.
But the first thing to do is go and talk with your manager. Tell them you like your job but don't feel you are being fairly compensated, etc.
But, depending on where you work some companies will only do large salary adjustments if you have an offer from somewhere else for them to match/beat. Even if they don't have a policy like this, having an offer from somewhere else gives you leverage for getting a raise.
In my time there I have had no negative feedback...
Yeah, but have you received any positive feedback while you've been there? (I know you mention one promotion your got -- but anything else?) Maybe they think you're just an average employee.
GMD
watch this
What got you into that position? At what point did you not get what you deserve?
I ask because I'm in the same boat. I got promoted during a salary freeze. No raise for me, so I'm under the minimum for my title as well.
I haven't resolved the problem, mainly because my company really is under financial pressure. It's hard to demand a raise when all of management took a 20% paycut so that use peons wouldn't get burned. (I wonder how many of you are hearing a story like that for the first time!)
However, if my company were to get on its feet again and continue to underpay me, I'd probably start shopping around for a new job. I'd likely play the "I have another offer, raise me or lose me" card. Unfortunately, I wouldn't dare do this without somewhere to go.
Okay, not a great solution, but I'd like to know how you got into that pickle.
"Derp de derp."
But has others have said, under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you say anything like "or else I walk". NEVER.
HOWEVER, you should begin preparing a backup strategy - update your resumee and start looking at other jobs in the area. Begin asking yourself if you are willing to relocate. In short, start looking for another job.
This is for the following reasons:
It is far better to start looking NOW, while you are relatively cool about it, than to get so pissed off that one day your mouth acts before your brain. I have a friend who did that - told them "Take this job and shove it" and walked out. He damn near lost his car and home before getting another job, and that was during better times than now!
www.eFax.com are spammers
I for one am sick of hearing people go on about their job like it's their birthright to have a good job at good pay.
If your job stinks... look for a better one.
If your job doesn't pay well... look for a better one.
Your boss isn't required (nor should be) by law to provide you with cake and also let you eat it.
The ball is in your court.
~foooo
Didn't work:(
I'm making the assumption that you haven't already since you don't mention as much in your post. But why don't you ask for appropriate compensation?
Why resort to leaving or invoking labour laws, why not schedule a meeting with your direct superior and discuss your concerns?
If that doesn't acheive the desired result, schedule a meeting with the next management level above them. Once you've exausted all of those avenues, then that would be the time to consider taking the actions that you mentioned.
That said, in a down market like we tend to be in now, companies will tend to leave your salary alone and bring in people with lower salaries because that is all it takes to recruit someone into the company.
In my career, the only time I have gotten BIG increases in salary is when I have changed jobs (most of the time reluctantly, but twice because I wanted too) getting over 50% increases when I leave (vs. getting 5-10% raises for staying). This is the bassis for what I was saying above.
How do you deal with this. It depends on your faith in your job skills, and the relationship that you have with your management chain. Do you go to your manager and say... Listen, I fell that my job title deserves this pay, please lets work on how to get it together, or if you think he is going out of his way to screw you on pay (many people think this, when all they have to do is really ask, but it is a posibility) then it might be worth looking for another position within the company, or outside the company. I would however not recomend it with todays economy, wait a year or so for tech jobs to pick back up so you aren't faced with the same problem in 3 years
I have mod points and I am not afraid to use them
That being said, I don't think you can assume that management is "receptive", even if you're a good employee. Management does stupid shortsighted things all the time -- that's what keeps Scott Adams in business! This particular situation is probably not due to malice or prejudice, but you really can't rule it out either.
The very first issue is to answer the question, Why are you being passed over? It might be simple oversight. It might be that somebody just doesn't like you. It might even be for a perfectly good reason you know nothing about.
Does your employer know that you surf the net and post 'Ask Slashdot' questions while at work. If they do, then I wouldn't ask for a raise. :)
One point I have not seen raised is the question of whether you like what you are doing. Sure, you could jump ship, but on the other hand there are expenses and hassles and risks with going in to a new place. I side with those who say "ask for a salary adjustment," if you are that worried about it. Or perhaps just hint... this worked for me after being under paid for a few years, I got two years of 18 and 20 percent raises. If you are comfortable and respected where you are, that is worth money in my estimation (especially if you get to go home on time every day).
It's possible to circulate one's resume discretely, and I suppose it's usually a good idea to do so. But I hate to imagine what kind of company you're working for, if they'd fire somebody just for circulating a resume! Indeed, that's a pretty stupid policy, considering the costs of unnecessary employee churn. At any place I've worked, a manager who thought that way would be the one who'd be looking for a job!
. . . I'd advise you to cope with the lack of proper pay and be glad you have a job. Pay is politics and if you're unpopular pestering people for raises is a good way to get sacked no matter how objectively deserving you are of one -- nobody cares, but they'll be happy to fire you to shut you up.
Threatening to walk is NEVER the right answer.
Look at it from the boss's perspective - you just had to bribe an employee to stay. Now, how far do you trust that employee?
Just as I recommended to the employee to have a backup plan, I would recommend to the boss to have a backup plan - namely, start de-emphasising that employee - get them off critical path, get a second employee to be able to cover for them, start looking at how to replace them.
You are correct in that looking for another job might cause one to mentally commit to leaving, creating a self-forefilling prophecy. So would the boss's logical reaction: he is going to become able to replace the employee, and may very well do so.
If you have to threaten to quit in order to get your raise, you don't want to be working there.
Most bosses are clueful enough to realize that if an employee is asking about their salary, failure to meet the employee's request will result in the employee leaving - you'd have to be pretty stupid to say "Oh, you won't pay me what I'm worth. OK, well, back to my cube I go, dohp-dee-doh." And if your boss IS truly so stupid that he doesn't realise that, then do you want to be working for him?
www.eFax.com are spammers
Perhaps you will feel less put upon if you consider this: management can't fail to notice that you stuck with an undercompensated job. You can encourage them to understand that you're doing so because your in with them for the long haul. The resulting good will may be more valuable to you in the long term than that lost pay is in the short term.
I had been working for about 2 years and found out the new position equivelent to my own would be payed more. So I came in to my bosses office with my resume told him i quit and applied for the position.
We both knew I wasn't really quitting but it made my point and I got a small promotion and new salery a bit above the incomming position.
I don't recommend the quitting part but applying for the new position might not be a bad idea.
Any suggestions at all before I look for other employment?"
Take a dump on the coffee room floor.
Sure, there is no need to have a State of the Union address prepared, but you should be able to prove that you are worth the extra money. The only way you can do that is to provide concrete examples of who you have helped improve service, the bottom line, customer satisfaction or whatever measurement the manager favours.
Don't assume that your boss knows what you do - half the time they don't. Actaully, half the time may be too generous. How do you expect to sell yourself (and let's not kid ourselves, that is what we are doing when we ask for a pay rise), if we don't do any selling?
I got a 15% payrise after I:
showed that compared to the market rates, my pay was below average
gave three examples of how I had generated additional revenue for the company, increased the efficiency of an area and demonstratably improved customer satisfaction.
All up, that took about a 1 minute to say.
x = your score before the post #6410759
Tough shit.
-In my company, it's been directly stated that if anyone has an offer from another company, let your manager know, and "they'll try to match it".
... take it and give your notice. Don't get lulled back in only for them to piss away your time until the new position is filled then fire you, putting you on the street - being unemployeed when you negotiate your compensation at a new job will easily cost you $10,000 a year.
Actually what they are saying is 'let us know you betrayed by us by interviewing elsewhere and we will try to convince you to stay (here's a token raise) until that other company fills the position, then we will replace you with a loyal employee and make it harder for you to find a job.'
If you go out and interview, like the potential of the new position, get an offer
It shouldn't, but it does.
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
Since I'm not union I don't appear to have any way of trying to get myself compensated appropriately
Of course not, with that attitude.
The best way is merely to mentione to your employer that you want more money. Mentioned that the less qualified are getting more. It would have worked for me. I was offered a 25% increase in salary for that very reason! I did leave, however, because i felt that they didn't care enough about me, and i found another job where i was more comfortable.
If you are truly valuable to them, and you ask, as oposed to complain, they will most probably help you.
Have you read my journal today?
It doesn't work for michael sims either, but he keeps trying!
I'd pretty solidly say that mentioning in the negotiations these points pretty much always works (has always worked for me, until I hit the point where I really am at the top for my current job, and don't really want to move up the management chain):
- You like your job
- You like the company on the whole
- You aren't satisfied with your compensation vs. the work you do and the value you provide to the company
- You hope this can be worked out
- If it cannot be worked out, you are considering whether or not you have a future at the company.
There. You didn't make any threats. But your point is very clear -- hey, I'm worth a lot more to you, let's make this work, or I'm gone. I think a boss understands that clearly. Last time I tried this, I got a 15% raise out of the deal.
So I'd say yes, making it clear that this is a vital negotiating point with your continued employment is a very important point to make. Of course, do make sure the resume is up to date if you're going to mention this, because it better not be a bluff -- you have to really mean it.
It's a strange world -- let's keep it that way
You've clarified your points, let met clarify mine, as I don't really think we disagree that much.
I don't think saying "Well, OK, so you say I cannot get what I am worth here. OK, then I will have to consider my response to that" is wrong.
However, DON'T say that if you don't have some fallback plan. Have some offers in hand first.
If you don't have the offers in hand, don't threaten to quit, in any way.
If you do have the offers in hand, then you aren't threatening. You are stating a fact.
So with both of our clarifications, I don't think we disagree, we were just emphasizing different aspects of the situation.
To recap: don't threaten. If you are going to make any statements about leaving, have those offers IN HAND first. Otherwise you are risking a period of unemployment.
www.eFax.com are spammers
You didn't mention your educational background. Do you have a college degree? Did the new hires that make more than you have college degrees? Lacking a college degree is often the cause of most salary discrepancies. If you don't have a college degree, it's most likely the thing holding you back. Yeah, it's stupid that a piece of paper can determine your salary more than actual knowledge and skill, but that's the world we live in. Talk to your boss and see if there's a way to get your company to help pay for that degree and earn that salary increase.
If you do have a degree, then you need to do some work. As many have suggested, sit down with the management, explain your position, and flat out ask them why you are being paid less. Prepare a resume of sorts that describes all of the ways you have contributed and improved things for your company. Any statistics and dollar figures you can use are the best ways to do this. Management likes to see cold hard numbers and dollar signs showing you saved money and increased efficiency. Make it as clear and objective as you can. If they refuse to look into the discrepancy, start looking for someplace else to work... and let them know you will be doing so.
Good luck!
Current employer looks at you and thinks "disloyal, might leave any time, don't assign to important projects".
Headhunter thinks "flake, just using me to angle a raise out of current job, will never score me a commission, not worth shopping around".
Can't work out well unless you have an adult, businesslike current employer.
I was working as phone tech support for an isp. Obviously, this was less than thrilling, so I applied for more challenging, and better paying work when I felt I was qualified. After successfully interviewing for an admin job, I informed my boss [during my 1yr review] that I was giving my 2 week notice.
He asked if there was anything the company could do to keep me, and offered a 25% raise.
Just a little tidbit of experience to help you decide.
[and for those interested, I declined and took the admin job which was paying a little under 4 times the phone monkey job. 5 times after a year]
Before you do anything, read Getting to Yes: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In.
THEN, you tell your boss that, while you've enjoyed your run here, you've been made a better offer. Bring some boxes so you can clear out.
However! this is when your boss, who really stood to lose nothing before, may push harder for you to get a raise rather than losing you.
This was common practice where I used to work.
You never hung on up recruiters (always be polite) and keep your resume up to date and take a periodic long lunch for an interview.
I friend use to take 2 hrs every Wednesday afternoon and talk to other companies. He had a new boss who dicked around on his expense reports ("you're making me spend 4 hrs of my time trying to get reimbursed for $150 when you bill me out at $200/hr? Are you high?").
When new boss asked where he was going on his Wednesday, he said "job interview." and left. New Boss asked around, learned of the habit and knew that if they weren't a Good Place for this lucrative person to work, he'd leave. When my friend returned (from an interview at a hellish place), his signed and approved expense reports were on his desk.
If you truly get a better offer, by all means take it, but let your company make a counter offer and weigh that.
So Never threaten to leave.
Give notice and threaten not to stay. Unemployment sucks.
It's simple, if they don't give you a decent wage, quit and find a better job, or at least make your current organisation think that you have the intent of quitting so they will want to pay more to keep you since your the department "go to", and stand up for yourself! Don't settle for bad pay.
Perhaps the reason why the newcomers are being paid more is that they are putting the new cover sheets on their T.P.S. reports.
To protect workers against exploitation. You're being exploited, and you aren't in the union? You're on your own. Why do you think other people *are* in the union?
Then there's the other alternative. If you're getting paid less than the next guy, then do less work than him. Don't stay late, don't put in hours to meet deadlines, take your maximum holiday allowance. OK you'll never get a promotion but it sounds like you want to be out of this company anyway.
"...some companies will only do large salary adjustments if you have an offer from somewhere else for them to match/beat."
Even though counteroffers are fairly common, most employers feel as if they are getting "robbed" by someone who is exploiting the situation. Their logic is a bit warped, but the perception becomes reality. Future raises will be low end of low, and promotions will go to someone else. After all, "We are paying John Smith too much already. We have others that deserve something as well."
Employers have a limitless supply of excuses to avoid large salary adjustments. They will attempt to validate the status quo, often making irrelevent "internal equity" comparisons that ignore the problem that caused the discussion in the first place. Incredibly, the money that is "not in the budget" to retain existing employees is somehow available to hire a less experienced replacement from the outside.
The best strategy is to pursue other opportunities. Get a better offer, accept the offer, and quit. Otherwise, you may force the current employer to cough up a few dollars, but the problem will be back sooner than you think. Besides, who wants to work in an environment driven by last-ditch counteroffers?