Slashdot Mirror
Torvalds Says Linux IP Is Sound
An anonymous reader submits: "In an interview with CRN, Linus Torvalds says he's confident there won't be any IP problems discovered in Linux. In fact, Torvalds, says he was extra careful with issues like the IBM Read Copy Update code."
What a relief. It would really suck to have to switch back to IPX after all these years.
sulli
RTFJ.
make the TCP/IP jokes stop, please!
The Linux intellectual property is really sound, and not code? Oh great, now the RIAA are gunna bust our nuts for distributing Linux for free!
mogorific carpentry experiments
On a serious note, it is good to know he was thinking of these issues for some time.
Then if it falls in the forest does anyone hear it?
"It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance." - Thomas Sowell
Anyway, even though this interview is really short, Linus has good points. The kernel submission system is very open, unlike propriatary systems, and if there is a problem, it can be traced.
linux when they pry it from my cold dead hands, no wait, i meant to post that on the nra site. good to see linus finally helping to clarify things
Linus seems to be getting more and more annoyed with each one of these interviews. Why don't all these various online news sites take a hint? ;) at least ask him about -something- other than SCO SCO SCO.
Give the poor man a break.
There are lives at stake here!
All I got to say is...
"..."
'Nuff said... back to some kernel hacking!
Welley Corporation - SLM Scammers
Because he's one baaaad computer hackin' mutha fucka.
Linus has never tried to go commercial with Linux. He avoids this side of things. I think this is a strength. Commercial OSs are driven by the desire to sell and as a ressult suffer technically.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
About time this came back around. I've been playing this throught my head over and over again, every time this SCO thing comes up, and finally we see the way it really works out.
See, we know SCO is like Darth Vader, and Microsoft is like the Emperor, pulling his strings. Now, we always thought IBM was Luke, kind of, in that they're the ones having to fight off Vader, but I couldn't quite figure out who Linus was. At first, I figured he was Han Solo, with the helping and the fighting and all, and Alan Cox is obviously Chewbacca (just check the hair).
But now I think we see that Linus is really a mix of Obi-Wan and Yoda, because he's helping and guiding, but not really fighting himself. At least I thought he was Yoda, just except for the lying (I mean, wtf didn't Yoda ever tell Luke SCO was his father?) but now we see Obi-Wan taking a more active role, actually standing up to SCO! So we're at the "full circle" part, where Linus tells SCO that if he strikes him down (i.e., inspects the code) he'll become more powerful (i.e. open sourced and GPL protected) than he can possibly imagine.
See, now it all makes sense! Now we just need Luke (IBM) to blow up the "Death Star" (frivilous lawsuits) with a proton torpedo (the GPL) shot down an "exhaust tube" (an exhaust tube). I hope that cleared it all up for everybody.
Consensual sex is boring.
A mathematician is saying that a-b = (a+b)(a-b)? There must be at least one lawyer payed by a rich company that could win a case against it...
I thought he didn't care? As in "I don't want to know what we're putting in, don't tell me"? And now he was "extra careful"? Or is this some other type of IP he's referring to?
The fact that not only Linus himself uses Linux can already be considered a success...
To succeed in the mass market, it has to be put in the market first... Something that Linus did not do!
Don't confuse Linux (the kernel) with Linux Distributions such as RedHat, Mandrake, Slackware, etc. They distro companies are the ones usually marketing Linux and facing the customers... not Linus himself.
Welley Corporation - SLM Scammers
Obviously you don't understand Linus's role in all this. Linus' customers ARE developers. Joe sixpack doesn't go download the latest kernel and install, he goes and picks up RedHat/Debian/Gentoo/Slackware/etc... from CompUSA. RedHat/Debian/Gentoo/Slackware/etc... are Linus's customers, they are the ones that deal with him
You are in a maze of twisted little posts, all alike.
1. SCO's lawsuit is about misappropriation of trade secrets
2. RCU is a patented technology
3. Patents are publicly viewable
4. Therefore, RCU cannot be a trade secret
I don't see any way SCO can have a claim unless the RCU code that IBM donated contained SysV code or code derived from SysV. I seriously doubt IBM would be stupid enough to do that.
Anyway, since trade secrets are no longer protected once they are publicly revealed, no one should have anything to worry about except possibly IBM.
but what about the TCP problems?
I am your boss at a major Fortune 500 company. You are fired.
Linus says something like, "It is just a contract dispute." It is a contract dispute, true; but, what is the contract dispute about? IP?
-- everyones not everybody and neither is everybody like everyone.
When Linus says a contract dispute between IBM and SCO has no bearing on Linux, I think he's being a bit naive. If the code IBM submitted to Linux was a violation of that contract, in addition to damages IBM must pay, a court may place an injunction on shipping Linux, or force Linux users to pay damages as well, depending on the wording of the licensing agreements in the distros being used. Of course this may be pessimistic thinking, but it's not an impossible scenario. Also, if IBM is found in violation of their contract, thats ammunition to pursue further lawsuits against other Linux companies and end-users.
Vote for Pedro
If a programming project is open source, with an uncontrolled number of people working on its, whats to stop someone comming forward saying I changed module x with code/ideas I stoll form company y in an IP case.
I know things like GPL try to address IP with open source but have their been any big court cases concerning IP on open source Software to test thing out? (forgive me if I an not aware of some big case, that 99% of everyone always knows about)
The one thing SCO has mentioned has been the Read Copy Update code that IBM gave us, and that wasn't accepted for the longest time into the kernel exactly because we knew the patents were owned by IBM. [But] we said we couldn't take it until you [IBM] said very explicitly that you also license the patents.
Does this mean there is patented code in the Linux kernel? How does that not conflict with the GPL?
Either you're a troll or you have no idea what's going on. Read the article.
This guy is way out there
The worst case senario (which I think is EXTREMELY unlikely) is that the courts find SCO right on all points, this means linux will become a "dark" OS, you'll have to find obscure sites and download the latest kernel before it gets locked down.
More likely is that SCO gets chucked out on it's arse for having such lame evidence (last I heard it was 80 lines that were copied word 4 word) and linux comes out fine.
But my biggest worry is that whatever the outcome whenever a big campany is looking to migrate, the issue of the "stolen" code will come out.
Some conversation like this will happen.
IT guy: We should switch to linux it's cheaper, faster and more stable.
Manager: But what about the stolen code?
(conversation on how it wasn't stolen etc.)
The biggest problem is our reputation will be tainted and that's whats bugging me.
Give a man a fire, he is warm for a day.
Set a man on fire, he is warm for the rest of his life.
Profit motive is the worst and most inefficient way to develop any complex system. What's required is a true interest in what you do. Why do you think so many of those paper MCSEs were completely worthless? They did it because they wanted the money and didn't care about the technology. That's never going to get anyone anywhere. You do it because you love it, otherwise you find something else to do otherwise you'll always be second rate.
Un-news
Are you so naive that you actually think successful "mass market" companies "like" the consumer?
NEWS FLASH!
They don't give a F$#K either!
As long as you're still grabbing the latest and greatest, slightly modified w/ new icons version, they're happy.
They don't need to like you to succeed; they just need to have you by the balls. When was the last time someone who "liked" you asked for money, every year, to continue seeing them?
Wrong. Linus works on the Linux kernel. The people that package various distributions worry about the customers they attempt to serve. Most folks that enjoy using Linux would laugh with Linus on this one.
"...or force Linux users to pay damages as well, depending on the wording of the licensing agreements in the distros being used."
Linux users are not party to the contract between IBM and SCO, so nothing in that contract can compell Linux users to do anything.
The most the courts can do to Linux is force them to remove code IF (and I just can't see how it could, but if) SCO does in fact own the rights to code submitted to Linux by IBM. Linux will live on no matter what and SCO can't touch users or developers.
Don't moderate flamebait as Troll. Know the difference or you will be Meta-moderated.
It is built by developers...for developers.
I think that's rather unfair, but actually, this is *exactly* why I use Linux. Microsoft has always seemed to follow the philosophy of "Shut up, we know what's good for you", which is fine for most users but drives me up the fucking wall. I spent months learning to use Linux, but I can now finally set my computer up exactly the way I want it which I never could with Windows.
This is the main reason I like the open-source movement, not the philosophy or supposed superiority of the code.
Uh... I was joking you realize... there is no "forestfall" property in any Linux kernal. Nor should there be, the lack of tree-group-related noise is one of the big advantages Linux has over Windows.
Yes folks, I will be here all week. No need to throw those tomatoes, I'm not hungry.
Man am I on a roll. A roll with sesam--ouch! Alright, alright!
[SIG] It's like putting a moose in the blender -- a recipe for disaster!
I've been waiting for my UUCP configuration mojo to come back into fashion; looks like no luck yet.
Damn, that comment was meant to be a joke. Wow.
Ignore the "p2p is theft" trolls, they're just uninformed
huston we have a n00b
Linus :
Curious mathematical idea, but lovely rhetoric.
I'm not sure if I like this term "Joe Sixpack." I would probably consider myself a person of this description, judging from most contexts in which it is used - except my name isn't Joe. Also, when I drink I hardly ever finish off a whole sixpack before I get depressed and go to sleep. Sheesh.
The snow doesn't give a soft white damn whom it touches. -- ee cummings
cat /boot/vmlinuz* > /dev/audio
"Proudly Posting Without Reading The Article"
That is not ignorance of the law, that is ignorance of the fact.
Not knowing that something is illegal is not an excuse.
Not knowing you DID something in the first place is a totally different matter.
Linus is not ignorant of the law, he knows taking someone elses stuff and putting it in his kernel without permission is illegal. The point is that, if you have no reason to suspect you don't have the rights, that should be the end of it as far as you are concerned, until someone points out otherwise.
To do things the other way would be incredibly expensive, and endless... how do you prove code is totally within your rights? Full patent search and public annoncement on each function and update?
Microsoft are successful.
Do they treat us in a fashion that leads you to think they like us?
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
btw if you wana learn about torvolds read
Just for Fun: The Story of an Accidental Revolutionary
I don't see any way SCO can have a claim unless the RCU code that IBM donated contained SysV code or code derived from SysV. I seriously doubt IBM would be stupid enough to do that.
IBM's contract with AT&T allows IBM to create derivative works but it also requires that IBM treat these derivative works the same way that they treat the Unix base code.
In this way it's similar to the GPL. If IBM had released a Linux kernel with RCU features, people would be clamoring for the RCU code to be released under the GPL.
Similarly, SCO is claiming that RCU is a derived work of Sys V and demanding that the derived work be kept secret as the Sys V codebase was.
Ironically, a ruling which finds RCU to not be a derived work of Sys V helps IBM but weakens the GPL by narrowing what must be considered a derived work. A ruling which holds RCU to be a derived work of Sys V hurts IBM, but helps the GPL by setting an expansive definition of what constitutes a derived work.
But even if IBM loses to SCO, it probably has no implications for Linux unless they can get a ruling that SCO rightfully owns the copyright to RCU which seems incredibly unlikely.
I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
The only thing that shows up being even close between the Linux kernel and the versions of Unix with source available is what seems to be a derivative of malloc and mfree in ate_utils.c
ate_utils is/was part of the NUMA code for IA64. It has been removed from the latest development and prepatch kernels (it's obsolete, from what I've read.)
There are some less interesting similarities between the signal handling code, but that's hardly remarkable. How many ways can you write a switch statement?
The key thing to remember though is that SCO doesn't actually claim they wrote the code. They claim to own rights in code that IBM wrote. I would bet that it's safe to assume that a detailed inspection of AIX and Linux 2.4.21 will reveal similarities. The question is, does IBM have the right to relicense code they created?
When was the last time someone who "liked" you asked for money, every year, to continue seeing them?
:(
I knew something was wrong when my girlfriend asked if I could do direct deposit.
Ok, so is all Linux networking now done as VoIP? Anyone?
I'm glad that Linus Torvalds, esq. cleared that whole issue up. What's that you say? Linus is not a lawyer? You mean his comments are really no more insightful as the rest of the armchair lawyers on /.? I gotta run. I have to cancel the lawsuit I planned after reading all those comments on /.
Actually, he said "If I did kill Nicole, it would have been because I loved her so much."
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
At least Linux is customer neutral. I get the distinct impression that there are a huge number of marketing droids up in Redmond that are laughing at me behind my back!
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
Wrong. You don't invent an algorithm - you discover it. Algorithm has been exisiting forever as a part of the math. So, if you patent it then you just participate in a very wrong patent system of USA. If you want to protect your investment to that research you've made then you should implement it and then protect the code. When you implement the code - you invent it. Sort of. If you close your invented sources than it's a trade secret. Make sure to obfuscate it as much as even you stop uderstanding it - otherwise it will be reverse engineered. If you ope your invented source then you can copyright them.
But whatever you do the only way to protect your research investments is to keep researching and developing. In software industry every algorithm has an idea. If you got an idea - you don't need any freeking algorithm since you can re-implement it in no time. Examples: gzip vs zip, png vs gif, pgp vs rsa etc and so on. So, the real artifact of your invention is a combination of the source code *AND* the environment you've created to compile it, debug, test, and package. Again, the only way to proect investments to such combination is to keep being faster than your competitors.
Less is more !
How many times does RMS have to tell you. IT'S GNU/linux.
Errr... no. He probably went through the code with a fine toothed comb (or a decent pattern matching app) and found nothing infringing because there never was anything infringing to begin with.
Ummm, probably not a pattern matching app...what other source code do you think he had access to? I'd wager none...
Please, please, please can we avoid using the acronym IP? It is not at all a valid concept - these are all completely disparate areas of law and should never be referred to in the same breath without clarification.
It is often used as a term that encompasses patents, trademarks and copyright - but if you ever hire an "IP lawyer"(sic) you will nearly invariably find that they only specialise in one or two of the above areas.
Q.
Insert Signature Here
I'm with you on this one. The more I've learned about it, the more it seems they generally got things right. It could've been the unix heritage that I'm admiring, but going off to another system (such as windows or mac), I'm consistently struck by how easy it is to get things wrong. OS X was a bit closer on the mark, but I've never found its unix-like layer to be that enjoyable. Many of my favorite tools aren't there (such as my text editor of choice, joe) and those that are seem like they were done wrong (there's a fair amount of wrangling involved with getting perl to behave. Pretty flimsy for a "well-integrated system", in my opinion). No matter, it's not really the point I'm trying to make here anyway.
.*rc files is)
What I was getting at is that there's an amazing amount of stuff-that-feels-right when I get on a linux box, but I've become increasingly disenchanted with the way things have been going in the desktop-environment camp. Granted, I started off with afterstep (after a few false starts mucking about with twm), but I've never really enjoyed the "We know best" attitude. It's kept me off KDE to a large degree (it's a minor thing, but pet peeves are made from getting used to swallowing apps in the afterstep wharf and trying to transition to the kde panel (kicker?) which has always seemed wildly inflexible). Gnome wasn't so bad in the early days, but ever since Pennington wrote about the evils of preferences, I've become rather wary of it. Watching configurable items disappear, or get moved into places that are [highly recommended|otherwise inconvenient to avoid]. Gconfd and it's rather senseless approach to XML-izing the windows registry is a particular point of contention. Awful, it is.
So I'm thinking I'm going to have to go off-mainstream from much of where the linux-on-the-desktop guys are headed. There are going to be occassions where it's more painful than others (keeping a few extra libraries around isn't so bad. Getting used to the loss of
I think I liked it better when I was talking about how Right things could be, rather than how much we've given up because of vocal tards that keep bitching about a fictional Aunt Tillie needing everything to be dumbed down.
*sigh*
-transiit
Setting your computer up exactly the way you want *is* the philosophy. Read the GNU Manifesto. RMS started GNU precisely for the same reason you prefer Linux over Windows.
I'm your mom and you're grounded.
hypothetically, if I wrote a commercial kernel, would I be allowed to donate code to linux?
When I read that quote about customers. I said, Halleluja this guy rocks.
There are places and times where it's a good thing to reach out to people for whatever reason and try to cajole them into various actions. Marriage wouldn't go far without a good customer service attitude on the parts of both partners, but there are limits for christ's sake. Just like mantra "let the markets decide" customer focus becomes a slavish dogma and it so damned refreshing to hear someone who has billions of customers say fuck em'.
Amen brother. Tell it to the people!
Seen it, haven't gotten around to trying it.
I've been on an XFCE kick for a while, although I'm a bit nervous about the upcoming (days?) version 4. We'll see (and to be fair, I've not been watching too closely. Things could be fine.)
There seems to be a definite disconnect, though. You can have modern luxuries like anti-aliased fonts, or you can have the "bad old days of editing rc files by hands." (which I remember as the good old days. Spend a bit of time getting it set up right at first, be happy and feel productive.)
-transiit
Linus - "Help I'm in a nutshell" ... or was that someone else?
Am I the only one who reads this as StFU every time I see it in print?
Living at the edge--of a continent?
Xix.
"Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
--
One by one the penguins steal my sanity...
Proudly running Slackware since 97.
I've got nothing against debian (well, perhaps dselect is a bit crufty), but I'll agree that apt is quite the little charmer, especially if you're responsible for large numbers of machines that you need to keep up to date.
As for the really high-speed/low-drag sort of window managers, I've found pwm to be rather nice (I like being able to group windows.), and during the occassional flight of fancy, I'll use ion (the most obsessive compulsive window manager ever. All the space on your screen is used at all times. Unfortunately, it doesn't always work out so hot, especially when dealing with programs that make a lot of assumptions about window-sizing)
-transiit
It will soon be 'SCO/Linux (c) SCO, all rights reserved.'
You do it because you love it, otherwise you find something else to do otherwise you'll always be second rate.
So very true... I'm totally sick of the in it for the money types.
Hopefully a lot of the lamers will get out of IT now the dot com bubble has burst.
They claim to own rights in code that IBM wrote
Then IBM must have signed some insane license agreement when they licensed code for AIX.
Something along the lines of: We[IBM] don't own any of the code we write.
Sounds a bit far fetched if you ask me. Nobody would be stupid enough to sign a deal where every line of code you write (in fact for ever since you signed the deal, because how are your going to prove you didn't write the code while the license was still valid), wouldn't be your property and to do what it whatever you please
since Linux is the kernel the GNU software is run on
the history of the world
What Linus was saying about patents was that he will not actively go and search out patents to see if a development is infringing. This is considered the proper practice for engineers as it would eliminate any possible clean-room development defense if they looked at the patents, AND (to make matters worse) patents are so horribly written that you may not even recognize an infringing item.
As for the RCU, he was extra careful because it was a known fact that IBM had a patent related to the code in question. So, he was being careful to make IBM formally license the patent before including the code.
--- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
While it's true that no consumer would have to return the TV, they might have trouble getting it fixed. The recording studio at WMBC has a 24-channel mixer by Behringer. Behringer totally ripped of the design from Mackie, was sued, and lost. So the last time I got it fixed, it was $12 parts and $375 labor, because it's impossible to get information about it. "Get another one" is not an option for a college station.
Now, this shouldn't be a problem with Linux in the long run, as whatever code is deemed to be infringing (if any) can be removed/replaced. Heck, if I had to, I could revert all our machines back to 2.2.x until it all blew over. Fortunately, software is a lot more flexible than hardware. I just hope that, in the event that SCO wins, there aren't any Linux appliances out there that can't be easily updated to the "new" kernel.
WMBC freeform/independent online radio.
Hey, if a girl asked you if you will set up a direct deposit, the only thing I'd ask is Your place or mine?
Happy Noodle Boy says "F###ing doughnut! Mock me? You fried cyclops!!"
I thought it was 198.182.196.56!
The only reason we have the rights we have is that people just like us died to gain those rights. -- Cheerio Boy
There's an idea that I had that I just wanted to get out in public so that no one can patent it: to encode a polygonal mesh as the union of a) separately encoded connectivity w/o geometry; and b) an unordered cloud of points to provide geometry w/o connectivity. The two would then be married with prediction algorithms typical of connectivity compression, with small corrective factors along the way. My plan was to resolve vertex id's in the same order that the standard edgebreaker traversal discovers them. Any new vertex that didn't have a full parallelogram to do its completion with (which would, of course, include the very first triangle), would be encoded with an explicit id in the point cloud. All others would predict as before, and then the encoding would be something like "take the 5th closest vertex to your assumed location".
Mixes of Star Wars characters you cannot have people be. Exact analogies you must have.
I have a life. I really do. I've just chosen to ignore it.
for talking about what goes on the in the temple.
Yet anyone can enter that wishes to do what it takes. Its not a secret. Its not like "no one named `bill' can know this".
Its not uncommon in society to see behavioural conduct as requirements to be a part of what the constitution considers a "free association". Its considered free becuase the state holds no restrictions on who is associating and what behavioural (as long as those behavoirs are not illegal) restrictions that association feels are a part of its charter.
To restrict all associations to include everyone would be, alas, a restriction on "free association" and is why such restrictions have been stricken down in the courts.
But it is a free association. People simply need to live a certain set of guidelines (membership in the church for a year, honesty in your dealings, fidelity to your wife, no alterior deceptive purposes for going and following a dietary guide). Anyone can really go in there. In fact its often pointed out that 50,000+ people go around the world each year encouraging people to get in.
In the linux world, this is not unlike the reasoning for Debian to have closed mailing lists or requirements to associate on them. A certain basic requirement to make sure people are really there to work and not be contrary to the purpose of the association is not a sinister purpose.
The "free agency" that the Mormon church talks about has nothing to do with Linux.
Your right. One is an operating system the other is a doctrine that states "you can do anything you wish but you can't excape the consequences of your actions".
Are you a convert or life member?
Both...
You ever heard about how the Mormon's practiced communism in the early days of the church (Oh I'm sorry they called something like "the law of concecration")
Probably better refered to as the "United Order" since the law of consecration is not incompatible with the monetary system in the church. People still vow to live that law even without the United Order in practice. It essentially says that you'll join everyone else in devoting everything to a common cause that is important for everyone. That common cause is specific, but essentially that is what its about.
But it isn't communism, specific stewardships are assigned to specific individuals without property being in common. What makes it so socialistic is that people offered there services free of charge to those in need. Mechanics would simply fix the buggies around them, and Doctors would simply heal people without the paper-reciept based economy the US uses. Everyone would work where they could, meaning doctors and laberours would harvest wheat when needed and such. Its may be somewhat socialist, but no property was considerd in common between people.
One could say it works more like the kitzva's (?) in the country of Israel.
If you didn't practice this law, you were execumenicated. (I know i'm spelling that wrong, but you get my poing.)
The pattern was more like they said they'd live it but then got greedy. But I'm not privy to every case. Either way people that never agreed to it were never excommunicated for it (that I'm aware of).
But I'll say that the Linux development model is probably a lot like how software would be developed in the United Order. Linux has been describes as the OS that gives you warm fuzzies for knowing your part of a great help-each-other-out community. I think thats very much in common with the United Order and one of the reasons I love Linux.
Comic Book Guy? From the Simpsons? Is that you?