Slashdot Mirror
Telemarketers Sue Over "Do Not Call" List
Joey Patterson writes "CNN reports that 'Telemarketers expanded their legal challenge to the government's do-not-call list, suing a second federal agency over the call-blocking service for consumers that the industry says will devastate business and cost as many as two million jobs.'"
The list works. What a shame
will devastate business and cost as many as two million jobs Telephonus Marketroidae are getting closer to the Endangered Species List.
Was there a constitutional right to profit that I missed?
Wow, a lucrative publishing contract! I don't have to be evil anymore. --Meteor
I'm sure alot of people who work for telemarketers have their names on the list just so they don't get calls.
Gibble: Descriptive of an emotional state in which one's mind is scrabbling for some purchase on reality
one could argue that they never had a viable industry in the first place. I mean sure they were born during the gee-whiz days of telephone technology, but yesterdays novelties are today's nuisances.
...then later, then. Seriously, it should have been tackled long ago. What I'd like the government to do is say "OK, we'll compensate for those being laid off, but the list is staying." THEN we'll see the true side of the telemarketters.
FYI - if you work in email spam, better start looking for a job now while you have a chance...
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
Another industry with a doomed business model resorting to litigation to address its (short-term) problems.
.
If I were a telemarketer, I'd be overjoyed at the prospect of a national do-not-call list. It should be seen as a list of people who aren't likely to buy anything from me, thus reducing the time I waste calling people who probably won't buy. The feds even pay to maintain it!
Also . .
The suit's argument that jobs will be lost is worthless. If they were motivated by providing jobs, I wouldn't get so many pre-recorded solicitations. I'm sure the industry would eliminate almost all their employees if they thought it would bring them more profit.
'I ain't a liar, baby, and I ain't proud I just want what I'm not allowed.' -- Violent Femmes, 36-24-36
Who put it in these guys heads that they have a right to call me at home to hock their mortgage and duct-cleaning schemes?
Every dollar they lose, the phone company (and via "trickle down" theory, me) saves by not shouldering the cost of their business.
Essentially their cost of doing business is being subsidized by everyone who pays a phone bill.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
They finally have to find a more dignified job.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
Isn't this exactly like the candle manufacturers suing the electric utilities, claiming electricity will cause massive job loss? On the other hand, what are all those losers whose only skill is having a big mouth and being able to follow a script going to do for a living now?
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
They're stating that not only has the FTC been distributing their intellectual property over P2P networks, but that it was also illegally incorporated into Linux.
(What? This is a different lawsuit? I thought Slashdot only covered the RIAA and SCO!)
*sheds a tear for the pain and suffering of telemarketers*
If the RIAA can get their continued existance legislated, it's only fair the telemarketing field gets the same treatment...
-insert a witty something-
Since when is a job a right? I'm glad I have a job while so many of my friends are laid off right now, but I don't think my job is a God given right that can't be taken away. I think this goes to more of a privacy issue, but will courts curtail privacy to save an industry money?
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur
Exemptions included...calls on behalf of politicians.
So, even if I put up the telephone equivalent of a "Do not trespass" sign, the craziest of all businessmen are still allowed to call me?
Ceci n'est pas une sig.
Cry me a river.
If they (the Telemarketers) hadn't been so pushy uptil now, then the List wouldn't be necessary.
But they were, and so it is.
So 2 million high school&college kids/temp workers with no invested education for their job are out of work. They can go work anywhere else that doesn't require training.
Now how about the IT industry planning to fire 8% of it's US work force and move 3.3 million jobs to India and other Asian countries?
We need to sue/pass legislature/whatever to secure our jobs, damnit!
no comment
I'm confused. This means that half the people that buy products from telemarketers will sign up and therefore prevent themselves from buying new products?
Someone's being really stupid here. Is it the people that buy products & prevent themselves from buying more? Is it the telemarketers making this up? Or is it just me?
Practice Kind Randomness and Beautiful Acts of Nonsense.
Maybe those 2 million people can get jobs selling magazines door-to-door.
Oh wait. People hate that, too.
blog
Exemptions from the list include calls from charities and pollsters and calls on behalf of politicians.
But calls from people telling me, Vote for Dayton/Coleman/Ventura/ whoever else is running are the worst kind. And don't get me started on charity calls, It's bad when they try to sell something, it's worse when the ask me to give them something for nothing. Toughen the law even more, I say. Make those annoying "oops wrong number" calls a federal offense. I don't want my phone to ring for anyone I don't already know. In fact, add my family to the list. The only ones I want to allow to call me are single women.
SAILING MISHAP
You'd really think they'd notice the overwhelming response to the DNC registry and think "hey wait, maybe people really dont want to hear from us"...no such luck
If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
'...cost as many as two million jobs.'
Another group of people who went to the 'RIAA School of Maths'
I have over 70 freaks, do you?
testing out my trending skills
I have heard that, in the day of door-to-door salesmen, many such folk were actually thrilled to see "No Solicitors" signs, because they felt that such signs were indicators that the people there knew they couldn't stand up to a sales pitch. I'll bet the same logic might be applied here, so those of us who prefer not to be called might in fact have inadvertently invited twice as many.
What I don't understand is why the list officially does not apply to cell phones? I get sales calls on my cell phone, and it pisses me off. I pay for those minutes on incoming calls!
The CB App. What's your 20?
It beats me why the telemarketers are complaining. Currently about 28 million numbers have been registered on the national Do Not Call list, of around 313 million phone numbers in the US - that's less than 10%.
Until 100% of numbers are registered I would have thought the telemarketers would have loved this. A tool that lets them to avoid wasting time calling people who don't want their services. This should make their operation much more efficient - in other words profitable.
If they really believe they offer a valuable service, then clearly 100% of numbers won't be registered and they can continue to operate a profitable business serving those who do want their calls. Those who don't want to be called aren't. Win-win.
Sailing over the event horizon
The FCC does something right. In fact, the FCC is doing what the PEOPLE want. 28 Million can't be wrong. Look what happens! They get sued by an entire industry. Thinking this says a great deal about the tenious relationship the government has with business.
how many of those 2 million jobs that they claim will be MIA are located in the US?
You are either a consumer, or you are with the terrorists.
Well, paraphrasing slightly, but I think you get the picture. If you can't be pressured into buying things that you don't want and don't need, then what's going to happen to all the people making those things, and applying that pressure? They'll have to get, you know, actual jobs.
I suggest they start making buggy whips, as most of us need them about as much as the current products and services that need to pimp themselves with unsolicited calls.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
"Hell has expanded its ongoing legal challenge to religion and is suing yet another church over the concept of salvation, which Hell claims is devastating its business and will cost millions minimum-wage demons their jobs."
It is as easy as that. Build a business on annoying people and then, when the annoyed people react, cry "But won't anyone think of the children (of our employees)?". The point is they shouldn't exist in the first place (the employees, not their children). It should not be everybody else's problem if you have a business model based upon a service no one wants (because if everybody wanted it we wouldn't be having this conversation, would we?).
*... of the world's smallest violin plays for the ATA.*
Anyone else feel like starting up a telemarketing scam for telemarketers?
"Hello, sir. Are you pissed since people no longer want to hear your sales pitch during their dinners? Would you like to hear about a technology which beats that nasty 'do not call' list? With our new technology, we are able to allow you to get around those laws and continue letting you peddle your crappy interest rate credit cards and stupid health insurance policies without the federal government finding out about it all! Are you interested, sir?"
"What? It sounds like you're eating right now. Well, just think about how surprised your potential clients will be when they have the same thing happen to them. If I can just get your name, address, telephone number, credit card and social security numbers, we can send our informational package to you for the low price of $159.99!"
-Jellisky
I can't believe how much the media and the courts let slip by. The CNN article should have been titled Telemarketers Attempt to Defraud Courts with fake job loss numbers and scare tactics.
I don't have a clue how many people the Tele-hacks employ, but I sure know that they never get any business from me. By using this list, I am saving them time - increasing their profits!
2 Million Jobs! You have to be kidding me!
Why can't the media see thru lies like this one, and the RIAA, and simply report that companies are lying in order to survive.
I live in Missouri where I have enjoyed the protection of a State Do Not Call List. I have received two calls in the (2 or 3?) years the list has been in operation.
Having a state do-not-call registry, I do not see how a national list will reduce the number of unsolicited calls.
You would think the national list will make it easier on telemarketers. It must be easier to deal with one list rather than 50.
I don't understand how they can say this will cost them money. I thought that this would save them money.
I, for one, would never buy from a telemarketer. Ever. Nothing. So, by adding my name to the do not call list, they are no longer wasting their time by calling and offering things I will never buy. They can concentrate their efforts on the people who are receptive to this type of sales and avoid sadistic people like me who will let them talk and then leave them on hold for hours while I look for a credit card.
I would think that over the long run, they will see a higher percentage of sales per hour by eliminating people like me from the list.
Viv
Gmail invites for ip
I am sure they could create about 2 million jobs as well. Ditto for prostitution.
My rights don't need management.
A loss of two million jobs...of which a large number are convicts, currently serving prison sentences, who get paid below minimum wage, because it's a good source of cheap labor with American accents, and it's their only opportunity for work. See, e.g., http://www.stopjunkcalls.com/convict.htm
* mild mannered physics grad student by day *
* daring code hacker by night *
http://www.silent-tristero.com
Why even complain about the do not call list if those people listed on the do not call list basically are saying that they don't want to buy stuff from the telemarketers in the first place!
That's like me getting a list of girls who would never go out with me. I'd love to have that list , it would save me time. Then again that list might be bigger than the do not call list, but that is beside the point.
[alk]
This isn't about the government killing off an industry. It's about protecting the people who are "bothered" enough to request not to be bothered. If I called you every night at dinner time, and if you did not welcome my call, you would ask me to stop. If I did not stop, then by definition, I would be harassing you, and you would have some right to protection by the law.
The DNC list does not prohibit phone solicitations; it merely requires that solicitors prune their lists based on people's requests not to be contacted that way.
Most people in that line of work are paid by commission anyway, so I feel that I'm doing them a favor by having them not call me because I *NEVER* buy anything sold by an anonymous phone (or door) solicitor. Rather than sue, these folks should embrace the change for the better of all mankind!
The CB App. What's your 20?
They are losing the kind of "customers" that don't really want to buy anything but will anyway just to get them off their back. That number of people is frighteningly high.
"Light is faster than sound." - "Is that why people tend to look bright until you hear them speak?"
You know, technically, the Federal government is for the people, by the people.
So if telemarketers are sueing the Federal government, then they are sueing both the people who buy their products, and those that do not wish even to consider them. In effect, we are looking at companies sueing consumers to force them to hear free speech. Fortunately, freedom of speech grants the right to say something; not the right to force others to listen.
It appears Ockham lost his razor and grew a beard.
You can sue anyone for anything, that's your right as an american citizen.
Civil cases have always been about someone trying to convince the judge that something isnt fair, and the judge proclaiming the most effective argument (ie loudest) the winner.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Before everyone adds me to their Foes list, I want to say that I didn't last long: I quit. I was desperate for a summer job as a college student and thought that working indoors making a good wage was better than the crap jobs my buddies were getting pitching tar or whatever the hell they were doing in the heat. Funny thing is that I was selling premium television channels and I, personally, thought (still do) that TV was largely a waste. It took me a few weeks to develop my ability to sell something that I didn't believe in but pretty soon I was starting the heavy-sell over the phone. I was a hypocrite -- I personally thought what we were selling was crap.
Finally, one day I made a call and a very elderly woman answered the phone. I started into my sales pitch when she finally sobbed "Please, please, just leave me alone. My husband has died and I don't know how I'm going to pay my bills." And by god if I didn't have to bite my lip to stop myself from replying "You need some entertainment to distract you from your problems. Can I sign you up for the comedy channel?" Man, I was so programmed to try to turn a bad situation into a sale that it was just automatic! Fortunately, I still had some decency left and told her that I wished her best of luck and hung up. I quit the very next day. I still remember the look on the boss' face when I told him why I was quitting. I don't think he had ever had someone quit for moral reasons before. He was stunned that someone would voluntarily quit a high-paying, cushy job solely because of moral qualms. Because I had left before my shift was up, my ride wasn't there to pick me up. I walked all the way home in the rain. But I was happy. I had done the right thing.
Whenever I hear about the sob-stories of telemarketers, I simply remember back to those awful, awful people who I worked with those few weeks. Screw 'em.
GMD
watch this
"The American Teleservices Association, an industry group that sued the FTC in January to stop the list, asked the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Denver to reject new regulations set by the Federal Communications Commission."
Hey, I'm sure the judges have had positive experience with Colorado's No Call list. It's amazing, I went from an average of 3 phones calls plus 6 hangups a day to ZERO! It was a night and day difference.
Perhaps they should have filed somewhere else?
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
Richard von Weizs
you know i would like to sell crack on my corner, i hear it's quite lucrative
however, there is the small matter of the quality of life effect on my neighborhood, and my conscience about pushing an evil drug on people
where is the telemarketer's concern over the quality of life of the people they harass over the phone? and where is their conscience about wasting people's time?
who cares if it is 20 million jobs that are lost? telemarketing is an industry whose best place in the world is crumbling in the historical dustbin of defunct business models
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
This from a group that represents an industry that once called me at home no less than 60 times in a five day period!
"marketing will always exist"...got me thinking...
Luke struggles to remove a small metal fragment from Artoo's neck joint. He uses a larger pick.
LUKE: Well, my little friend, you've got something jammed in here real good. Were you on a cruiser or...
The fragment breaks loose with a snap, sending Luke tumbling. He sits up and sees a twelve-inch three-dimensional hologram of Leia Organa, being projected from Artoo. The image flickers and jiggles in the dimly lit garage. Luke's mouth hangs open in awe.
VOICE: Help me, you're my only hope. My name is OBI-WAN KENOBI, if you help me by transfering $12BN credits into your account, you too can have a 12 inch Organa like mine!
LUKE: Aaaagh!!*%^$_"$£!!!!!?
Although high school and college students made up a good portion of the workers at the 2 telemarketing companies I worked for (in high school and college, natch!) another, possibly even larger chunk, was made up of low income, low-educational level single parents. According to this article quotes statistics (granted, provided by the DMA) claiming that 60% of their employees are women, 25% are single mothers, 33% are minorities, 5% are disabled.
From my experience, I think those stats are more or less accurate. While a lot of students work telemarketing jobs for a summer or a year or two, people who stay with a company for several years are more likely to fall into the categories above.
As a progressive, those are the kind of people you don't want to see put out of work. And if you're conservative, you don't want ANY people back on welfare.
Personally, I'm not a fan of the calls. CallerID doesn't do a good enough job of blocking them, and I would never buy anything from them anyway. I also don't feel very sorry for the corporations who will lose "50% of their business." So, I'm on the list. But I don't think much for the chances of the newly unemployed, with "compassionate conservatism" looking out for them.
The facts have a liberal bias. --The Daily Show
I love the way all of the telemarketing companies and associations claim they do not want to call people who do not want to be called, yet they fight lists that do exactly that as hard as they can.
I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
If there are jobs that we don't want done, then they should be lost!
-Rob
We've had a "Do Not Call List", called the "telephone preference list", in the UK for over 3 years now. It works a treat. I haven't had a telemarketing call for over a year and if someone does call you just tell them you are on the list and they leave you alone sharpish.
Has it been devastating to companies in the UK? I don't think so. Maybe just to the shady ones that can only sell stuff over the phone because no advertisers will deal with them. I don't know about you but I think this is a good thing.
Consider this to be a "popular vote," as opposed to one that requires representation. I have cast my vote, and it says "go away."
It's kind of like having a speed limit on the highway. Yes, it restricts your ability to go fast, whenever you want. And yes, it places a restriction on how fast you can deliver material goods - which can be translated directly into "lost potential money" because it takes longer to deliver your wares.
Safety requirements "cost jobs" for manufacturers of toasters. Sound level restrictions on cars "cost jobs" for manufacturers of glass-pack mufflers. Telemarketing is an industry that is subject to federal/state/local regulations, just like all the rest.
So cry me a river. Deal with it.
> The question then becomes *why* we should have to pay a service fee and do manual filtering to avoid being harassed in our own homes.
;)
The same reason our ISP now has to filter out e-mail, the same reason filter software companies are "viable" businesses (and will probably sue to block any laws to outlaw spams...
Seriously though, I though a fair number of telemarketeers outsource their boiler room operations to prisons and countries like India, so I am at a loss as to just what sort of job loss the telemarketing association is referring to.
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
"This truly is a case of regulatory overkill," said Tim Searcy, ATA executive director.
"This [telemarketing] truly is a case of pushy sales overkill" said mobileskimo, Annoyed phone owner.
The telemarketing industry estimates the do-not-call list could cut its business in half, costing it up to $50 billion in sales each year.
Go make money providing society with something usefull.
Implementing the list could also eliminate up to two million jobs, the ATA said.
Stop getting paid for being a schmuck and go do something usefull.
Quality Service Management
Don't get me started on this one.
And we wonder why our economy sucks when people wake up and smell the garbage they've been tossing around. Well, duh, if we're not producing anything and just making shit up to sell to each other, how do you expect anything of real value to be added to our world?
"Last one in is a rotten goblin!" - Kepp
is a Do-Not-Sue list!
The US DEA has initiated a crackdown on unwanted drug dealers in affluent neighborhoods all across the US, causing countless millions to be out of work... ~m
"Yes, I have a Disaster Recovery Plan. It's called my Resume"
Just calls (more) attention to the list so people will know it exists and sign up.
, muggers and such start a suit in defense of their jobs? Finally forbidding thievery forced SO many of them work illegally and risk law consequences...
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
Two words:
Privacy Manager
We've got it at home. All calls coming from anyplace that doesn't display the originating phone number are dumped to a VRU. The VRU asks for a passcode. If no passcode is entered, the VRU prompts for the name. The VRU then calls us and gives us the option of 1)taking the call, 2)hanging up, 3)dumping to CallNotes.
Combine this with CallerID, CallWaiting CallerID, CallNotes, CallBlocker and Anonymous CallBlocker and very few calls get through.
The only calls that do publish their phone number to CallerID. Asking for a manager, getting their info and then informing them to remove us from their list or face a $500 fine next time they call is all it takes.
Sure, the entire package costs $80/mo but its worth it.
Cruising the internet on my TI-99/4A @ a whopping 300 baud!
The dirty secret of telemarketing is that the entire business model depends on pressuring mentally or emotionally vulnerable targets.
People who actually want the product will find it and buy it without telepests. People who don't want the product and have no problem with saying so will reject it in spite of telepests. The only case in which telepests actually make a difference is when they use the immediacy of phone contact against people who lack the self-assertion or mental competence to stand their ground.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
$80 / month? That's NUTS. I just get plain caller ID and use my phone system with auto-attendant. I get ZERO telemarketing calls now and don't need an extra $60 / month of crap to make it work. One time $120 investment.
Caller: May I speak to Mr Yozepp Cleeboorn?
Me: Nobody by that name lives here.
*click*
I'm sure the last caller was the Publishers Clearinghouse Sweepstakes. <sigh>
My wife's favorite strategy is to look at caller ID. If it's "unknown name & number", she quickly taps the answer & then the end button. This denies the caller the chance to tag our answering machine, which my wife says they get some sort of credit for doing. Dunno if this is true, but I've learned never to argue with my wife over this sort of thing.
Meanwhile, I'm still working on my telemarketer zapper device which will send a 140 db burst of noise up the line... And now it looks like the no-call lists will steal all my potential market :-(
"Obviously, I'm not an IBM computer any more than I'm an ashtray" (Bob Dylan)
this simply wouldn't work, since in the equivalent to a constitution ("Grondwet") advertising is specifically NOT free speech.
flame on...
No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
--Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
Whiners. Just like spammers, this is a case of people determined to make a medium not intended for advertising into one. Where does it stop? If they cannot call you, are they going to stand in front of my house and shout?
This is laughable. Like travel/insurance/real estate agents and media distribution, this industry sprang up because of a particular circumstance of the business environment. Now that its changing, all these business are crying foul. Not so. They are slowly being replaced with online/digital mediums for searcing and sorting, micropayments and validation services.
IMO, I hope these services die a painful death and the people involved with them go looking for work elsewhere. Economic disaster, true, but I think it'll be good for our population to be forced into newer concepts rather than propping up the old ones. A certain percentage may even train to be part of the digital industry's workforce. Sadly, some may become spammers (if not already).
We're content overloaded and most of it is junk food. There simply isn't enough quality out there to warrant getting it stuffed in our faces every way possible. Let's have a phone/Voip be for private conversations, not substance-free radio blather.
mug
It's called "No Soliciting". When you post that on your front door I believe the guest has the obligation to NOT SOLICIT (ie. not try and sell anything) to the property tenant. If they try anyway, it could be considered trespassing or soliciting. If you approach someone and harass them in a parking lot and ignore the answer "no" it should be considered assault. Sorry guy, I have no use for people selling unwanted stuff to me or my grandparents. If I want it, I'll find you. Try passive marketing. Get an ad in the paper, the phonebook, or get into a search engine database. Better yet, word of mouth from someone.
Honestly think about it:
Those of us who do not like telemarketers, will not talk to them, and would NEVER buy anything from them are SIGNING UP for the list....
Those who like to buy stuff and chat, WILL NOT sign up for the list. Basically those of us who sign up are saving the telemarketers valuable time, by NOT wasting their time.
Get it???
I honestly don't see what the problem is... it's really a win-win situation for both.
I mean.. did anyone really stop to think about it? It's not like we're all automatically signed up.. you have to choose, to not get calls.
------
www.slightlycrewed.com - Because aren't we all?
The only solicitors I get now are people who work from home and their own number shows up on the caller ID, which is great, because I just call them daily at 6:00 pm and list off the crap I have sitting in my garage for sale.
If something I said can be interpreted two ways, and one of the ways makes you sad or angry, I meant the other one.
When the DNC list first appeared, the Direct Marketing Association shrieked that telemarketing contributed $600 billion to the GNP. That's 6% of the economy. A quick poll of friends showed they didn't buy *anything* from phone spammers, so that number was immediately suspect. Then the American Teleservices Association said it was $200 billion and 4 million jobs, but that wasn't believable either. Their bid is now down to $50 billion and 2 million jobs.
Those numbers mean each telemarketer's contribution to the economy is $25,000, as opposed to the approximately $40K to $50K to the GNP by each working citizen. Now, let us consider the telepests must be selling a product on top of getting paid - minimum wage is about $10K yearly, so with overhead we're talking closer to $15K, which means the products sold must be worth no more than $10K assuming full-time phone droids. This is supposedly a profitable industry, so one assumes the price would at least cover the overhead (in this case phone spammers) and cost of product. In this case we see the overhead is massive which means the end-user does not get value for money even if the phoners are getting minimum wage. Anecdotal evidence elsewhere in the thread indicates pay rates are better than that.
For the customers to be getting a good deal, the yearly rate must decrease considerably - the only way this can be done legally is to hire people part-time or offshore the phone banks. The aforementioned wage rates, coupled with the overhead of annoying hundreds, if not thousands, of people to make a single sale, mean the jobs must be far less than even half-time. In other words, the "2 million" jobs number is actually equivalent to a fraction thereof.
All the above calculations presuppose, of course, that the DMA and ATA are not merely lying sacks of shit. For the $50 billion and 2 million jobs they claim telemarketers "contribute" to the economy, I sure haven't seen any trace of that presence on the Fortune 500 list. For that matter, the demand for goods and services will not disappear just because Joe LoBrow isn't hawking them over the phone when you're eating dinner. The demand will still exist, and conceivably increase once the cost structure decreases when the inefficiencies of scattergun telephone marketing go away.
Francois.
Back when common law was first created in England there were seperate judges of law and equity, but modern judges are arbiters of both. As an example, this is part of the reason why non-compete clauses in contracts are difficult to enforce, because it's easy to argue that such clauses are unfair (i.e., not equitable). Of course, when acting for equity a judge's powers are technically much more limited than when acting for law, which historically leads to the kinds of strange rulings people are used to from the legal system.
When my audio Caller ID announces a call coming from "Out of Area" (aka no incoming caller id information), then I let the machine get it.
Then, if the business really wants to get a hold of me, they'll leave a message and, if I'm home, I can pick up.
This has worked pretty well until recently, when some of the more obnoxious telemarketers have played a pre-recorded spam message into my machine.
I could have sworn it was not legal for them to do this; certain state statutes prevent it.
Possibly my outgoing message must explicitly refuse such calls, or the loophole interpretation is that I am implicitly agreeing to opt-in, to receive such spam.
<philosophical>One of the more tragic developments in modern society is that more and more of our "public attention commons" is getting exploited because the cost of doing so is largely external to the people doing the exploiting. For millenia, we've paid attention to people wanting our attention. With few people, such interruptions are infrequent and of little cost to our emotional well-being.
Not anymore.
Unless laws are put in place to provide guarantees of private space, then it will be exploited.
But that won't happen. Instead, we'll all just turn into stressed out consumers that develop our ability to actively ignore our environment, other people and any attempt to grab our attention.
The newest sign of affluence is less intrusion into your personal attention.
</philosophical>"Provided by the management for your protection."
So, where were all these women who can't say "No" when I was single???
"Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
[quote] ... ...
Privacy Manager
Combine this with CallerID, CallWaiting CallerID, CallNotes, CallBlocker and Anonymous CallBlocker and very few calls get through.
Sure, the entire package costs $80/mo but its worth it.
[/quote]
But the point is that we shouldn't HAVE to fork out an extra $80/month to not receive this harassment. It shouldn't be so difficult and expensive (in terms of time AND money) to get the calls to stop.
Would you think an extra $80/month is reasonable to remove 95% of your SPAM? Think about it: $80/month. Doesn't matter what job you have, it's still a lot of money. If you think it's reasonable, then go out and buy every spam-stopping piece of software available and don't complain about all the junk email you still get.
"Jesus saves, but everyone else in a 10 foot radius takes full damage from the fireball."
They claim that they will lose money by not calling people who have indicated that they do not wish to be called?
So they are really saying that people who signed up do not know what is good for them, and they really would like to buy what the telemarketers are selling? What an insult. The overwhelming response to the do-not-call list makes it difficult for these people to continue to pretend that they are not leeches.
Used that one a few times. Immediately I got "Oh I am so sorry..." ...which made me rather angry, since I knew damn well they didn't care and were being even MORE dishonest. ;-)
Mmmm......sacrelicious.
Early reports indicate that every cruise missile hit its intended targets except for one that leveled a Stuckey's in deepest, darkest New Jersey.
"It was something else," said Garden State resident Bibby O'Leary. "There were nutty cheese balls everywhere. May the gracious Lord grant me my wish to never look upon such a sight again."
"We gave the stinking pig-dogs a chance with the National Do Not Fucking Bother Me Resolution," said al-Sahaf. "We gave them every chance, but their black little souls were full of evil, and they had to be taught a lesson.
"Gurgle! Argh!" shouted American Teleservices Association executive director Tim Searcy from his hospital bed where he was being treated for extensive limb loss. "Millions of grandmothers will die for lack of employment, and rats will devour the children of the land! Telemarketing is the only thing keeping the cloven hooved man-goat at bay in his underworld!"
"There is ample legal precedent for governmental interest in protecting residential privacy," said FCC spokesbabe Bubbles McConnifer. "If those cock-gobbling leeches at the ATA don't like it, we can add them to the list of known terrorist organizations, and tip off the MPAA that the ATA is involved in heavy file sharing. Let's see how those weasels like that."
Related link:
Amateur photo of ATA headquarters.
--- Ban humanity.
Valid businesses will most likely leave me a message if I am not home. Telemarketers don't leave me messages. Two exceptions: the idiots who don't realize it is a machine, and sit there saying "hello? HELLO?" and those who still leave me a message about some fantastic prize I won by entering their sweepstakes (which I never enter).
I do ignore valid businesses to avoid telemarketers. Sometimes valid business are unsolicited, such as window salesmen, lawn care places, etc etc. I have valid businesses cold call me all the time. Many of them do show up on the caller ID.
I don't get the status UNAVAILABLE on my caller id, it usually shows up as "Out Of Area" or "Private". Those are telemarketers. Everyone else shows up with a name/number. If they are calling me for a valid reason, they'll leave a message. If not, then I don't care if I miss their call.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
The OCAA (Organized Crime Association of America) is suing the government over their "Anti-Theft" laws.
Their representative, known only as "The Don", says that the legislation cost their business 9.4 trillion US dollars last year.
"This is a staggering sum" said The Don
"That's the equivilant of the entire US GDP for that year. Do you know how many citizens can be employed with that kind of money?"
The White House refused to comment.
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
Hi, I'm calling you to tell you about...
Can I get your phone number?
Sure. 1-800-55...
No, your home phone number?
Wha... why do you want my...
So I can call you at home. It's only fair, no?
"Last one in is a rotten goblin!" - Kepp
Did I mention Drexel's mascot is "the Shaft?"
One night I did cold calling of Alumni. I called 100 names on the list, I had 1 donation. Most of the alumni I called were downright hostile. Many were unemployed. A good chunk were bitter that they hadn't even paid off their loans and they were already hit up for donations. (Ten years later, but who's counting?)
I felt so dirty that I swore I'd never do it again.
That said, I did help out our local PBS station during a call drive. At least there, people were calling US, with credit card in hand, after having already recieved the "product" so to speak.
The first rule of marketing is to have a product that will sell itself. Ideally you are only introducing the buyer to the seller.
"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
--Dr.W.Edwards Deming
First, they claim that this will devestate the industry. Personally, I couldn't wish for more. In fact, I think that telemarketers are worse than spammers -- telemarketers annoy you at THEIR convenience, including at the dinner table. People don't just want to unplug their phone -- it's still the most important communication medium. However, YOU chose when spammers annoy you as you chose when you check your email.
In addition, when I was flying back home, I called my dad from an airport on the other side of the country. It showed up on the caller ID as unavailable, and, due to telemarketers, he no longer answers unavailable callers, so my call didn't go through.
All things considered, though, I think that telemarketers should be happy for this. I mean, think about it. It's actually going to help the industry. They're wasting their time making a long distance call to my house, for nothing. So, the people who add their numbers to the do not call lists are probably going to be the ones like my family who NEVER buy anything from them. Thus, the only ones they'll reach are those who will ACTUALLY BUY something. Thus, it's going to increase effeciancy (god, I hate spelling).
I can't afford a sig!
> Maybe it's just that Sprint sucks. But a huge number of calls
> show no data on the caller ID.
To filter out telemarketers, you also have to get the additional
feature known as Anonymous Call Block, wherein if the caller is
blocking caller ID he gets a message saying you don't receive
anon calls, and your phone doesn't ring. A legit caller who blocks
caller ID normally (for other reasons than you, presumably) can still
call you by using star-something to enable caller ID just for the
one call.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
hilarious
I love going down to the elementary school, watching all the kids jump and shout, but they dont know I'm using blanks.
You should have every right to call me if you want to. Just as I have every right to put up a fence to prevent you.
Companies don't have rights. The constitution and the amendments, and for that matter most laws that govern human behavior don't apply to corporations. When did we get such a silly notion?
A telemarketer wants to sue me or the person who administrates the DNC for blocking his free speech? Go ahead. Just make sure you make your lawsuit personal.
Mr.Iwannabeabitch vs Mr.Bitchslapper.
Not
Telenagger Inc. vs MrBitchslapper.
Nor
Telenagger Inc. vs DNC.org
"Last one in is a rotten goblin!" - Kepp
CALLER: Hello, I'm calling you on behalf of President George W. Bush. He has a very important message for you. For just 3 easy payments of 19.99 you can own your very own George Foreman grill. For an extra $2000.00, you can be the proud owner of the Texas sized George W. Bush premium edition.
Yeah, it's an off-the-shelf box. MANY companies make SOHO phone systems. On the low end, there is smething like the "VoicePro 206" that you can find fairly cheap on ebay, panasonic has the KXTA-624, and so on.
I just use standard analog phones with my unit - some decent 2.4G DSS cordless ones work great.
"Sorry, he's dead."
I tried something similar to this, it went like:
Marketer: Hi this is Ann with a special deal on blah blah.. Could I speak with Joe?
Me: Sorry he died.
Marketer: Oh, sorry to hear that. Could I speak with whoever the current owner of the household is then?
I should have replied, "No, he just died at the audacity of your response.".
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
...a group of technophiles who largely know nothing about sales techniques citing privacy rights that don't exist...
Are those 2 million US jobs? Or 2M jobs that are already or soon to be moved overseas?
It's too bad we had to come to this point. They brought it on themselves by not targetting customers more carefully when it became a widespread complaint. E.g. if I bought tires from Sears 2-3 years ago, I probably wouldn't mind if they called to ask if I'm interested in a big tire sale they're having.
The TCPA (Telephone Consumer Protection Act of 1991) (47 USC 227 and subsequent FCC regulations of CFR 64.1200) have outlawed several practices and create certain requirements for others.
Two things completely outlawed:
1) Junk faxes - unsolicited commercial faxes may NOT be sent without WRITTEN authorization of the fax machine/line owner. Period. There is NO EBR (established business relationship) that would exempt that. If you are sent an advertisement and did not specifically give your (express) permission, then it is illegal. Period. Do not allow yourself to be taken in by the BS of 'removal' numbers that are on the faxes. It is merely an attempt to legitimize the industry as much as spammers try to suggest remove address make them ethical.
2) Prerecorded commercial solicitations to your home may NOt be initiated without the EXPRESS permission of the owner. An exemption (unlike junk faxes) would be an EBR. Calls made for survey, political speech, or non commercial are exempt.
If you receive either of the above offenses, then you are immediately owed $500 per VIOLATION by the person initiating the call and on who's behalf the call is made.
That law provides a private right of action. Meaning you are specifically given the authority to sue them in court. While you cannot sue someone that litters on the highway, Congress provided this right. this pretty much makes you a private attorney general of your domain in regards to telemarketing.
Live calls are regulated. They must identify themselves by the caller's name, entity placing the call, and an address or phone number by which they may be contacted. This MUST be provided without your even asking. The company MUST have a DNC (do not call) policy in place before making such calls. They MUST provide you with a written copy of that DNC policy upon request. NEVER, ever allow the telemarketer say they will take your name off 'the list'. Specifically DEMAND that they ADD your name to their company's Do-Not-Call list (emphasis added).
The telemarketing is claiming the loss of millions of jobs. Yet they have not specified in what country. Do many of you not realize how many outbound call centers are in countries like India? The law by not affect that out-of-country company directly in terms of jurisdiction, but it does put liability on companies on who's behalf the call is placed. The only way a company can get by completely is if they are based and operate outside the country and have no business presence in any area under the jurisdiction of the US.
I have gone to court several times against telemarketers. If people knew their rights and enforced them by bringing suit in court as Congress intended, then a national list would not be necessary. the companies would simply not be able to operate.
Cave, wreck, and deep diver.
Yeah, and if you think a lot of jobs will be lost by restricting telemarketing, just think how many would be lost if we outlawed drugs and prostitution! Telemarketers will be the sacrificial lamb that will wake us up to the devastation caused by government interference in the markets before we go too far.
On the flip side, my psychic foresaw that this law will raise the GNP by $57 billion after people sitting at home unmolested by telemarketers get bored and start up home business to kill time.
Convert RSS to HTML - integrate webfeeds into your website
So they're making $100 billion a year in sales? That means that on _average_ each phone number is paying between $300 and $600 a _year_ to telemarketers, depending on how many of the cellphone numbers we want to include. (Techncially it's illegal for telemarketers to call cell phones, but does that stop them?)
So who's buying this stuff, what are they buying, and how much are they paying for it? Clearly there have to be some people spending totally atrocious amounts of money given how many people there are who have never bought anything from a telemarketer in their life.
Do the idle rich sit around waiting for telemarketers to call so they can spend thousands of dollars a year on them or what? Or are a lot of low and middle income people blowing their savings on this crap?
This Space Intentionally Left Blank
Exactly. They're never hawking anything I want anyway -- in fact, the interest level is about as high as for the average spam.
But "2 million jobs"?? Are they counting not only the boilerroom flunkies and their managers, but also everyone in every industry that ever used telemarketing? Even it that's so, I suspect this number was pulled out of their ass.
And most of said flunkies aren't making a living wage anyway. Back about 1985, I attended a "job fair" that proved to be a boilerroom recruiter. Now, they claimed that it was possible to make serious bucks. Well, I happened to be sitting where I could see onto the manager's desk, and the previous week's wage sheet just happened to be laying open where I could read it. ONE person had made the promised several hundred bucks. ONE other person had made about $100. But everyone else had made only $40 -- for the entire week.
Now, do we really WANT to preserve an industry that pays that poorly, even compared to India??
Come to think of it, if cheap internet-based long distance becomes an everyday reality, the next step is to outsource boilerroom telemarketing to India. And then how do you go about enforcing a Do Not Call list??
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Or we could just load them into a space ship along with all the phone sanitizers and launch them into space, never to return.
Oh, BTW, pound sand, telemarketroids.
If you never make mistakes, it's probably because you're not doing anything.
Just to be safe, maybe we should add the number for the WOPR to the Do Not Call list.
Anyone have the number handy? Bueller? Bueller?
For those telemarketers who are upset let me put this spin on the whole thing.
You are not going to lose 50% of your business. You are going to lose 50% of the numbers you can call. The 50% that don't want to be called and wouldn't buy anything if you did.
The remaining 50% will probably be more productive.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
Nothing stops a telemarketer from pressing 1 and getting to me (other than the message telling them that they should hang up,) and so far in 2 years of using it, NONE has. From ~1000 telemarketing calls a year to ZERO. Hey, it works, that's all I can say.
Allow me to prepare a defense of another industry in the same spirit as this one given by the telemaketers federation of evil:
Not smoking is a harmful socially irresponsible thing to do because it would cost the medical profession Billions of dollars and thousands of jobs every year if nobody smoked, therefore everybody should smoke whether they want to or not
Remind me again why I am supposed to care about these idiots?
On Wall Street they say "buy low, sell high" On the pad we say, "buy high, sell high" Isn't that somehow better?
According to This page There are between 12 and 40 million drug dealers in the US. They should get together and sue the Government - think of all those poor dealers who will be out of work when those "Do Not Sell Drugs" laws take effect. Think of what it will do to the economy.
-------
Hmmm, lets rate this 62% Funny, 28% Insightful, 29% Sarcastic, 1% interesting with a +1 bonus for putting in a link.
(For the people who think moderators need help)
An old friend of mine once taught me a neat trick with the phone, it goes something like this:
If the phone rings and you *don't* feel like answering it, then *don't*.
It's that simple.
I don't care about DNC lists, and gov't DNC lists, etc etc etc etc. If I feel like picking up the phone and dealing with whoever is on the other line, be they friend or foe, then I will, otherwise I'll let the answering machine catch it and I'll decide later what to do.
It's not so hard and frees up my time so I'm no longer a slave to the phone.
So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
I predict that outcome of all this DNCL stuff will be a reduction of about 0 in the medium to long term. All it will take is for the marketers to all be re-named as pollsters, that is an excluded class of callers in the law. THe DMA and other industry groups will quicly figure this out and spread the work to their members.
Instead of getting calls like "I'm calling today to offer you a spectacular deal on vinyl siding!", you'll get calls like "I'd like to ask your opinion on vinyl siding and what you think it could do to the asthetics of your home." May I ask you a few quesions?" I can think of nary a pitch that couldn't be converted in to some sort of "poll quesion".
I'm not at all familiar with what the FTC or FCC require of a "pollster" firm as opposed to a "direct marketing" firm, but my rough guess is little to nothing.
Article X: The powers not delegated... by the Constitution...are reserved...to the people
I remember once my family just bought a new phone that had a speakerphone. We received a call and my Mom answered on the speakerphone so I heard everything, even though I was in the next room. The guy went into his spiel and my mom just kept saying no thanks, but the guy kept going on and on. Finally, I just walked into the kitchen and hung up on the guy. Why is it hard? If I get a telemarketer now, I say I'm not interested and hang up immediately.
Which just goes to show who is really profiting from telemarketers: the phone companies. They've never had it so good. On the one hand, they're making a lot of money renting phone lines and dialing equipment to the telemarketers so they can bother you during dinner. Then that forces you to pay them extra to get caller ID (how many people would give up their caller ID if they weren't worried about telemarketers?) which has to be one of their highest margin services. Then they turn around and charge the telemarketers more money for the service that lets them block your caller ID, and you more money for the service that blocks people who block their caller ID. It's an arms race, and the phone companies are getting rich selling to both sides.
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
I don't share the hostility that most posters here feel towards the actual telemarketing employees.
I know people who have at various times held telemarketing jobs, and they all described thier jobs in similar terms to what is in some of the more hostile posts here. They took those jobs because it was what was available where they were. They took those jobs to get the last bit of cash needed to move on to the "greener pastures" we all dream about. The telemarketing employee is just a fleshy version of the email client being used to send spam. Thier employers, the clients who hire these firms, the DMA, the people who buy the crap that these poor sods are forced to sling over the phone for a couple of bucks are to blame for the plague of interrupted dinners. Not the employees who take these jobs.
Two Million jobs is a sh*tload of unemployment. The economy is not gonna "perk up" like that republican bastard promised us with two million people added to the unemployment ranks.
In other words I'm split on this one.
I'm on the do not call list.
I think the DMA and ATA need to shut up and go home instead of suing for the right to sell crap that very few people want over the phone. Maybe they will realize that a "no cold calls" policy is good for thier business AND their employees.
But I don't think that two million jobs lost in one fell swoop is good for anybody, and I don't for a second think that I'd be above taking a crappy telemarketing job if I had no other option to keep the rent paid and some food in the fridge.
Read, L
I can confirm this. How do I know? I called the FCC last year and I asked. I believe the complaint form is Form 475, which can be found here.
The Internet is full. Go away.
Enforcing the Do Not Call list from other than US telemarketers is covered in the Do Not Call legislation. A call from outside the US will not necessarily be blocked, but the parent company selling the product as well as any vendor involved in delivering that phone call is responsible for that call.
That is, a US company involved in any way, shape or form with the delivery of that phone call may be fined as defined by the legislation. Just because the phone call originates outside of the US does not let any US corporation get around the Law.
Also, realize that many states have their own Do Not Call lists and the legislation behind the state list may be different than the Fed. list.
If you haven't seen what all the specifics are, I encourage you to look at
donotcall.gov to get the facts. There is a grace period from the time you register your phone # and there are exceptions which is all explained at
donotcall.gov . Additionally, you may want to look at your state governments homepage to see if it has its own list.
None
:)
You suuuuuuure?
This may work for the uninformed or the unprepared, but it doesn't work on me.
lmao...dude, it works on _everyone_...it just depends on how good the salesperson is. In fact, you're the kind of guy reps love...a lot of ego invested in the fact that you can't be swayed...unwilling to back down...you're an easy sell, only have to turn that ego around so it's invested in the product and bang, you're buying
I'm not afraid to walk away from a salesman either
I didn't realize that it took courage to walk away from a salesperson? It's not your obligation to listen blah blah blah Dude, you're so missing the point...a good salesperson(and I'm not talking about your crappy run of the mill "good morning mr x, do you know you may have won already" reps)...I'm talking about a good sales person, skilled in the art of psychological manipulation and selling, will make you _want_ to listen, and do so without you realising it. So many times I've sat talking to sales guys, I mean really really good ones, that earn most of there cash travelling around training teams etc...they love this stuff, they sit down at the end of the day and laugh about how someone said blatently to their face something like you're comment above (it doesn't work on me)...to which they've countered with understanding and re-assurance...thrown in a 'feel-felt-found'...built a sense of ownership and invested your ego in their product...casually 7 point closed you...then bamn...you're buying...and you think you've got one over on them while you're doing it...dude, they sit round and kill themselves laughing over people like you..."You should have seen him, he thought he tore strips off me, thought he put me in my place...*laugh*, he was really just setting himself up for and ego based close"....everyone will be talked into buying something they don't want by someone who is just better than them at pop-psych...if you haven't yet, lucky you...that just means that you haven't met a good sales person yet...but don't worry, they're out there...you will. Lmao...maybe you have been already...as I said above, the _really_ good sales people make you think it was your idea all along.