Too Much Tech Diminishes Work Relationships?

Lansdowne writes "The Seattle Times has an article today on Tim Sanders, a Yahoo exec who claims too much technology may be bad for your health. According to Sanders, small groups of engineers who went to completely electronic communication in their workgroups became 'very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social, brilliant people.'"

Comments

uhh

[TapTapTheChisler]

'very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social, brilliant people.' in other words, nothing changed

Re:uhh

[m_chan]

Well, they _are_ in engineering. If they were self-actualized, happy, positive, gregarious, blustering idiots they would be in marketing.

Re:uhh

[Kierthos]

Hey, the reason marketing people are happy all the time is that it doesn't take much to keep fools amused.

Kierthos

Re:uhh

[red floyd]

No, they're lonely, depressed, negative because they had to deal with marketing!

Re:uhh

[caluml]

Hey, the reason marketing people are happy all the time is that it doesn't take much to keep fools amused.

That and copious amounts of money and coke.

Re:uhh

[bluesangria]

I disagree. That's a typical and often incorrect stereotype. Being analytical and logical has nothing to do with being anti-social. As human beings, we ALL need some kind of human contact to keep us content. An extrovert may desire human contact more often than an introvert, but both still require some.

Further, isolating yourself from people will actually make you are *worse* IT employee or engineer. Why? Because you forget how to put yourself in other people's shoes. By not doing that, you end up designing tools, devices, or software that are counter-intuitive and difficult for people to use. Raise your hand if you've never asked yourself "WHY did they design this gizmo/software this way? It's stupid!"

I'm currently struggling with similar burn-out at work as mentioned in the article. Everyone is so in love with the idea of technology, they've lost sight of whether or not adopting a new technology would actually be beneficial in the longterm. They believe that everything would be "so much better" if it ran on computers, and that's just not the case. I spend hours taking care of servers, networks, software, etc. that I forget why I'm even doing this in the first place and stop caring about the users. After all, I never see any of them.

just my $.02 blue

Re:uhh

[Anonymous Coward]

'very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social, brilliant people.'

The tech has nothing to do with this. It's his (lack of) ability as a manager that drives people insane - the compny politics. Now he is blaming it on thechnology. A typical PHB!

Re:uhh

[Anonymous Coward]

Being analytical and logical has nothing to do with being anti-social.

Fuck off, I have code to write.

Re:uhh

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought marketing was for circumlocutious, narcissistic, liars. :-)

Re:uhh

[Anonymous Coward]

That's a typical and often incorrect stereotype. Being analytical and logical has nothing to do with being anti-social.

On the contrary, being analytical and logical often leads to becoming smarter, and studies show that smarter people are less happy. When you can understand the problems that exist, and can see that nobody's fixing them, despite how easy it would be, it's a little harder to be happier and more social.

Further, isolating yourself from people will actually make you are *worse* IT employee or engineer. Why? Because you forget how to put yourself in other people's shoes. By not doing that, you end up designing tools, devices, or software that are counter-intuitive and difficult for people to use.

If only that were the case. In reality, I try very hard to design tools that are user-centric despite the fact that I'm anti-social. But the morons I've had to work for are never willing to take the time up front to allow me to do it right. Instead, they want to get it out the door as quickly as possible, and waste tons of money on providing (bad) tech support after the fact. No amount of thinking about users will get user-centered software made. Management and marketing have to realize that it's important and not only allow it, but demand it from those of us writing it.

Author must be dumb

[Anonymous Coward]

Tech is good for your health... just look at my tan pastey white.

Everything I need to know...

[PakProtector]

...I learned from Maxis' The Sims. If your or your Sim's social bar drops too low, bad things happen.

They've been screaming this for years.

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone has always been claiming that once we are all "connected" we will in fact lose our "connection" to the human race. Sure, I am 100% connected, my cellphone lets me surf the web while playing with my IPod and chatting on my laptop while hax0ring a wireless LAN at the hotel down the road. And yes, I am depressed, but thinking back a ways, I always felt that way. It seems like everyone I meet is turned off by all the pr0n I view.

Re:They've been screaming this for years.

[Anonymous Coward]

OK this is getting a littlle off-topic, but interesting...

I don't want to be judgemental, but I was the same.

Alot of geeks view alot of porn.
And sure everybody politically correct says it's all good and dandy and it doesn't hurt anyone, it's not like your stealing or murdering.
And that it's the fault of those close-minded people that judge you and are turned off by your hobby.
All you need to do is find open-minded people.

But is it really all good and dandy?

Some arguments I found very convincing are:

-It's addictive, while I was watching the porn I would, ofcourse, also masturbate. I probably did it too frequently and it started to hurt.(ps. In extreme cases I read that people would bleed while getting an orgasm, and due to hormone imbalances they would get bald and so, and often depression was also mentioned like in your post, don't know if it was all true and connected though)
Besides somewhere I also tought of myself as a perv, I didn't like that aspect of it.
So I tried to stop, deleted all my porn and vowed to not look at porn/masturbate for two/three days.
Never worked, the next day I was back satisfying my body

It's also too easy. The porn is like your slave (although it often looks as if you are the porn's slave). With real (normal) companions you need to build a good relationship before you get the goods.

Your body gets selfish. With two normal people they after some time in the relationship get 'tuned' to each other, they both get orgasms simulteneous. And there is extra satisfaction for both of you knowing that you satisfied someone else.


And yeah one night stands IMHO are alot like porn.

You should read "porn clerk testimonies", to see how we are really viewed by others


Anyway I think it comes down to, are you satisfied and happy with, what seems, a porn addiction?
Would you stop watching porn if you could get rid of the craving?

Think about it, I stopped, a year ago.
Haven't watched porn or masturbated since, and I am very happy, and no longer depressed.

Re:They've been screaming this for years.

[Anonymous Coward]

wow, I'm amazed that someone was so brave to share an experience like this... even though they're staying anonymous, it still takes quite a bit of guts to talk about this crap.

Having been free of masturbation for about three years now, I can attest that it saps a person of their ability for intimacy, and shifts their focus onto physical gratification instead of developing a relationship. And the funny thing I discovered is that the desire for physical gratification, once gratified, wants more and becomes less satisfied; whereas the the desire for intimacy (I'm talking about intimacy in a broad sense, whether it's friendship, family ties, or a sexual relationship) becomes more satisfied with every encounter. Then it inspires the receiver to reciprocate and give back to the giver, basically creating a "spiral of love", if you'll pardon the idiotic expression I just made up ^_^

I especially liked this comment:

With two normal people they after some time in the relationship get 'tuned' to each other, they both get orgasms simulteneous. And there is extra satisfaction for both of you knowing that you satisfied someone else.

It becomes more of a symbiotic, mutual exchange, and then leaves the desire for something as empty and second-rate as simple physical gratification in the dust.

The problem with porn and masturbation (and I'd also add selfish sexual relationships) is not that it goes too far; instead, it stops short of what a human can become.

I dont need friends

[Anonymous Coward]

My computer talks to me...
Isn't that right sweetie?

Re:I dont need friends

[Murmer]

Please go stand by the stairs, so I can protect you from the terrible secret of space.

Re:I dont need friends

[caluml]

Do not trust the Murmer robot - he is malfunctioning.

/. in a nutshell

[Anonymous Coward]

'very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social, brilliant people'

Re:/. in a nutshell

[Anonymous Coward]

since when are slashdot users brilliant?

perhaps thge other way around?

[ethelred]

Perhaps the "very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social, brilliant people" are simply attracted to technology, and not necessary a product of it...?

Re:perhaps thge other way around?

[NetworkDweebs]

I agree, too many people out there who are technology whores, and most of their technology never really accomplishes anything useful for them. That is the reason I've given away about 6 PDA's, my talking billy mouth bass, and plenty of stuff from ThinkGeek. I'm much more productive with just my laptop and a wireless connection than an arsenal of useless gear to babysit.

Call me old fashioned, but I still thrive on human interaction regardless of how obsolete it may be these days. Really, given if we all had the money, I'm willing to bet there are more people like me who would get rid of all of their technology and live a more simple, fulfilling life.

Re:perhaps thge other way around?

[msgmonkey]

You could attach "very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social, brilliant people" to some of the most talented people in history. I dont think it's restricted to tech.

It could be maybe that IT allows people who may not be comfortable talking face to face due to lack of social interaction to communicate with other people more easily.

Re:perhaps thge other way around?

[dollar70]

Perhaps the "very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social, brilliant people" are simply attracted to technology, and not necessary a product of it...?

I'm inclined to agree, but I also see the technology as exacerbating the problem. From the article:

"...They took nerd and created monster or troll..."

This is where I see the downward spiral come into play. The obscured moral of the story is that people need to realize the most important under-utilized feature that technology has to offer is the off button.

--
Test your Linux IQ: Press CTRL-ALT-BSP

Re:perhaps thge other way around?

[archen]

well it's definitely a correlation, definitely NOT a cause and effect - usually the media doesn't know the difference. That said I know a lot of people who were once perfectly normal (not exactly "brilliant") who have basically forsaken normal socializing for internet surfing/chatting/gameplay. It's the whole "game addiction" thing in another sense. Some people are just more prone to it than others. And out of those people, some can keep a handle on it with enough self control.

Re:perhaps thge other way around?

[trompete]

Next time you want to give away a PDA, call me! :)

Re:perhaps thge other way around?

[IIRCAFAIKIANAL]

I'm in the same boat. I only use my laptop and I'm one of the best workers at my company. I also never send email when I can just pick up a phone or walk over to the person and talk to them. No PDA, no instant messaging, no cruft whatsoever.

Tech may increase efficiency, but if it makes a person crazy that hurts the bottom line a lot more.

<cliche>If you acquire to much stuff, your stuff ends up owning you. I can fit my most important possessions in two suitcases.</cliche>

Re:perhaps thge other way around?

[Bluetrust25]

Your post reminds me a little of one of my clients who always calls with huge lists of changes instead of just laying them out in email as bullet points and sending them over.

"Okay, here's the next one, are you ready? Okay. Bold and italicise the words 'previously used' on paragraph two of question three."

Drives me absolutely batty. I get the impression that he read on the MSN home page ten tips to increase his career and tip #8 was something like, "Call, don't email. A personal touch is always appreciated..."

Bah. Just email it to me and I'll take care of it at my earliest convenience, don't call, interrupt me from what I'm doing, and make me transcribe your directions. Not all of us enjoy being interrupted from our work to take notes.

I really like email. It makes my business a lot easier. I just go down the list, taking care of email after email from clients. When I'm done, I can stretch and do something different. Calls interrupt that natural checklist-like flow by forcing me to break off what I'm doing and take care of their issues first. In email I can even be polite and cordial even when I don't feel like it!

You do use email when it's appropriate, right?

The worst ever is when someone calls AND emails. "Hi, I just sent you an email containing a list of changes!"

(You fucking loser!) "Sure. I'll be looking for that shortly. Thanks!"

(click)

Re:perhaps thge other way around?

[etheriel]

you sound pretty angry for someone who's living a simple and fulfilling life.

Re:perhaps thge other way around?

[Anonymous Coward]

a me-too post but ..

when I was an undergrad at a hard-core nerd school, we were asked to write (for one of the required Humanities that everone rolled their eyes at) what it was about our school that created so many personal, emotional problems for its students.

My reply was that, as far as I could tell, people showed up with quirks, emotional problems, lack of social skills, etc. It was mostly a self-selecting process as far as I could tell -- not necessariy of the school, but of the type of people that the school attracted (hard core nerds).

We showed up f*ked in the head! And, on average, abnormally high love of technology and computers, fear of girls and a lack of understanding why showering once a day, ironing your clothes, etc. immediately increases your chances of getting laid (though almost _nothing_ works better than a little self confidence and the balls to get shot down by chicks in your search for love: it is probably _their_ loss anyways!).

I think they have cause and effect mixed up. IF you're retreating from humanity (for whatever reasons, being a socially inept nerd is one of them -- I don't know why this _seems_ to go hand in hand) then the computer provides one of those escapes (where non-nerds may get caught up in booze, drugs, sex or whatever else helps you escape from your own life).

It's not different than: does alcohol abuse lead to depression or is it that depressed people tend to drink too much to "forget"?

It's not obvious that it happens one way over the other for every case. The important thing might be to recognize that too much time at the computer, being online (even reading /. at every opportunity, heh) may be an indicator of deeper problems (like say, getting lacquered everyday when you get home from work -- we can all recognize this as a trouble sign right?).

Cause and effect though, I think they have backwards (like my humanities teacher at school).

Re:perhaps thge other way around?

[SirDaShadow]

>Call me old fashioned, but I still thrive on human interaction regardless of how obsolete it may be these days.

Unfortunately for you and me, human interaction is a necessity, especially in a working environment. In fact, the most successful people in the world KNOW this...

Re:perhaps thge other way around?

[usotsuki]

Well said.

After coming out of an abusive childhood I went to the one thing in life that had never hurt me, that I had already known from before - computers. It was an escape for me - crissakes, still is. I haven't been out of the house for days, and I live alone. Most of my talk with other people is on IRC.

-uso.

Re:perhaps thge other way around?

[glesga_kiss]

most of their technology never really accomplishes anything useful for them.

I (and my friends) use technology a lot to arrange physical meetings etc. Mobiles, landlines, text messaging (SMS), instant messaging, e-mails and so on. Discussing one night out might cross across all of these mediums in planning etc. Technology is not all bad!!

I'm willing to bet there are more people like me who would get rid of all of their technology and live a more simple, fulfilling life.

Hell yeah. Half the people are know are saving to go traveling for several years, and they won't be worrying about jobs and PDAs while away. Personally, I'd still take my GSM phone though!!

Re:perhaps thge other way around?

[2short]

I could see anti-social people being attracted to tech, but I'd think the loneliness, depression and negativity are more likely a product.

In my job, I can either go in to my (fairly social) office, or work at home (shuttered away with just a computer), pretty much at my option. At the office, people walked in every 5 minutes with some question or other. I couldn't get anything done. So I took to working from home almost all the time, and people would e-mail me questions (but not with nearly the frequency). Got huge amounts done, but almost went batty. From that experience, I'd say the article is right on. Now I work from home about a third of the time. But even when I'm at the office, I make it clear that if you want me to actually deal with something important, email me. (If you need a fourth for a foosball game, walk on in!)

Re:perhaps thge other way around?

[Mr. Piddle]

I also never send email when I can just pick up a phone or walk over to the person and talk to them. No PDA, no instant messaging, no cruft whatsoever.

I agree that IM is stupid. However, e-mail is better than a phone call, due to it being a running transcript of the conversation. I find it frustrating to work with people who will talk only over the phone, as many decisions get lost to memory with no text to back them up. If phone conversations are then follow-up with person-to-person discussion with a whiteboard, then that is better--as long as someone takes notes about the whiteboard.

As an engineering student...

[cliffy2000]

I don't think that being "very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social, brilliant people" is caused by the electronics. We're just drawn to the stuff BECAUSE we're very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social, brilliant people.
But hey, what do I know, I'm just a very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social, brilliant Engineering student.

Re:As an engineering student...

[Josh Booth]

Who's that guy who keeps posting "CAUSALITY != CORELATION"? Anyway,

CAUSALITY != CORELATION

Re:As an engineering student...

[Paul d'Aoust]

I think it's very true that causality != corellation, but I think the corellation is a very strong one. Here's how it happened in my life:

1. young geeklet has nasty childhood experience, which shows him that the world is scary and dangerous
2. young geeklet believes this lie and insulates him from the world to protect himself
3. young geeklet pupates into a teenager, finds computers, an infinitely intriguing hobby, and uses it as his chrysalis
4. although computers occupy his time and even make him feel fulfilled for a while, they still aren't erasing the problem, which is that he is still isolating himself from his friends and family
5. geek comes to maturation, but discovers that he's very immature in some areas, like intimacy with his family members, courage to embrace life in its fullness, and the ability to make new friendships
6. geek gets very depressed
7. geek eventually decides to break out of his coccoon

8. Says the guy who formatted his list using HTML <UL> elements, ha ha!

   I'm in the last stage right now, but it is bloody difficult. However, I sincerely believe the story isn't over yet.

Re:As an engineering student...

[PsychoI3oy]

it sucks to be forced to sit at number 6 in this economy where i can't even go back to number 4 in a job because there are few jobs out there for someone of my skill level (4 years ago an AS and school certs in web programming sounded so good). but i'm working through it. i'm hoping to join the local LUG and get some person-to-person time (ok, geek-to-geek time) and get over it. but alot of the things that i want to do to move to number 7 require money (mountain biking, martial arts lessons, etc.) and that takes us back to 6 that much harder. oh well life goes on, and for now i email resumes by the boatload (and go fill out applications in person) and hope for the call from some cool employer. and read slashdot. alot. which doesn't really help any. oh well.

Bah, I don't believe it.

[slackingme]

What a fucking stupid article. I live and breath technology and I'm ray of bloody sunshine; seriously. I woke up this morning, rolled over, and got on my laptop to read Slashdot and you won't find /anyone/ happier than me.

I guess I'm lying.. oh, I'm sure a horrible, evil liar. Oh, woe is me. I hate my life. *puts gun in mouth* I wish I had friends, real friends, not just trolls, flamebaits, and mods.

Sigh... maybe they're on to something.

Flawed experiment (and conclusion!)

[JeffTL]

First off, the experiment involves the fast reduction of quantity of several social relationships. Socialization is habit-forming. You could get the same effect from taking a small group of pot smokers and switching them to tobacco. Second off, the conclusion is fallacious. The problem supposedly demonstrated is not so much too much technology as too little socialization, though for my money, the problem is the sudden removal of habit-forming face-to-face interpersonal communcication.

Re:Flawed experiment (and conclusion!)

[God! Awful 2]

So you think interpersonal communication is an addiction rather than a basic human need? I somehow doubt that.

I was out of work for a few months. I still went out to lunch with my former co-workers every now and again, or saw my friends on weekends, but for most of the day I was alone. Believe it or not, I started to lose the ability to talk. (Which really sucks during job interviews.)

Then after a few months I got a job where I just sat in a cube and coded all day. I was extremely productive but I counted the minutes of every day. Soon after that, I was promoted to manager. I am no longer anywhere near as productive, but the work isn't quite as depressing.

-a

Re:Flawed experiment (and conclusion!)

[Mac Degger]

"So you think interpersonal communication is an addiction rather than a basic human need?"

What's the difference?

Re:Flawed experiment (and conclusion!)

[timeOday]

An addiction can be kicked, a basic need cannot. E.g. breathing.

Re:Flawed experiment (and conclusion!)

[bj8rn]

Are you addicted to water, or do you have a need for it?

Re:Flawed experiment (and conclusion!)

[JeffTL]

Never said anything about addiction. I said "habit-forming," which is similar to but slightly different from "addictive." But yes, reductions in interpersonal communication are probably closer to reductions in addictive substances than anything else.

Re:Flawed experiment (and conclusion!)

[Anonymous Coward]

People used to wander off and live for years as hermits before dying alone in, say, the mountains, with lifespans not significantly shorter (and often longer) than the people in the disease-ridden villages full of cut-throat petty thieves below. Social interaction is not a basic need, and in my experience, tends to lead to life-shortening experiences, not life-lengthening ones.

Re:Flawed experiment (and conclusion!)

[glesga_kiss]

Social interaction is not a basic need, and in my experience, tends to lead to life-shortening experiences, not life-lengthening ones.

You need to get out more. All of the best experiences in my life involve my friends and family (and some strangers ;-), and these are life enhancing. There is a limit to how much fun you can have on your own (not so much now with technology), and if you become a recluse from society, then I feel sorry for you. You are missing out on some great times.

Each to their own though...

Re:Flawed experiment (and conclusion!)

[dubl-u]

Second off, the conclusion is fallacious. The problem supposedly demonstrated is not so much too much technology as too little socialization, though for my money, the problem is the sudden removal of habit-forming face-to-face interpersonal communcication.

Oh, please. Humans, just like the rest of the great apes, are social animals. Face-to-face communication isn't some weird drug; it's been part of our evolution for millions of years. Like sunlight, exercise, or vitamin C, we can do without social relationships for limited periods of time, but we need them to flourish.

People need to remember that, just like every other living thing, they evolved in a particular environmental niche. I like technology a lot, but I try to keep in mind that every technology-induced distortion of our lives can have unexpected consequences. A fine example is artificial light: the disrupted sleep schedules it enables can cause depression, but it took us a long time to realize that.

Maybe shifting more towards computer-mediated communication will have absolutely no side effects. But I wouldn't bet that way. There's a lot going on that most people don't notice and scientists are only starting to understand. For example, consider the recent discovery that the odor of mail sweat improves women's moods. I look forward to seeing the RFC to add that MIME type.

Re:Flawed experiment (and conclusion!)

[JeffTL]

I'd like to make it clear that I was not bashing interpersonal communication; hell, I love the stuff. But let's put it this way: I believe that it's possible to go without it, and moreover (and more to the actual point of my post) I am of the opinion that this study is greatly flawed.

Re:Flawed experiment (and conclusion!)

[NDPTAL85]

To be fair aren't most of the worst experiences in someone's life due to the pressence of people as well?

Re:Flawed experiment (and conclusion!)

[Mac Degger]

Yeah but, judging by some of the comments in response to the article, social interaction can be kicked aswell :)

Yeah, but....

[telstar]

machines are going to take over the world ... so those anti-social rejects are just laying the groundwork for their future girlfriends...

Re:Yeah, but....

[caluml]

calum@gentoo calum $ whois robotbrides.com
No match for "ROBOTBRIDES.COM".
calum@gentoo calum $

Get it quick!

Attitude

[Godeke]

I have noticed that as I have done most of my work remote this last year (remote desktop technologies instead of onsite visits, IM and e-mail instead of phone discussions) that I have become a surly bugger.

It has started to carry into my regular life: people are interruptions not whatever they used to be...

And here I am posting to slash.

Re:Attitude

[Coelacanth]

It has started to carry into my regular life: people are interruptions not whatever they used to be...

...obstacles, just asking to be killed and fed to rabid pigs?

Maybe your attitude is improving.

Re:Attitude

[Kierthos]

Oh, you've worked in tech support?

Let's face it. Technology lets us be freer with our communication. Nothing lets us lie so much as a chat-room. Nothing lets us say what we feel to people across the country or around the world with as little fear of recrimination as IRC. The anti-social behavior could be creeping in when these same people realize that have to cover what has become their "normal" conversation with the pureed bullshit that passes for civil conversation these days.

No, I'm not saying that we all need to speak and act like ever l337 haX0r on IRC, but we need to realize that not everyone is a nice person and that some people would prefer blunt honesty to lying with a smiling face.

Kierthos

Re:Attitude

[Godeke]

Where are rabid carnivous pigs when you need them? (If only they could fly too...)

Re:Attitude

[profyaya]

I do something that isn't quite as anti-social, graphic design, and i prefer email over face to face conversation since in some instances when working for bigger corps you dont' necessarily want to meet face to face because you have to play the 'hi we are professional' game and it's too much like rhetoric and some sort of theatre and in the end i rather interace via internet with these folks and keep my friends the one i am with in person. It's just the power of the internet, a great filter, you can bring the culture that is relevant to you close and you can leave the things that aren't in the fringes. Because really I don't relate to the lives of some of the people I work with, especially 'higher ups'. I don't have the american dream of a house and 2.5 kids or a car.. i rather live in a socialist-democracy with non-privatized health-care and less of a obsession with things and monetary gains. Okay.. this is turning into a tangent.. but yeah, keep those close to you in the flesh, keep those alien, far.

Does it really matter?

[Angel 666 2003]

Maybe some people dont want to have to interact socially, and messaging your colleague from five feet away certainly severs all social ties. And email is now such an important part of our lives that we use it to exchange information almost as much as we talk face to face. Without email, a good part of the business of any company would immediately be halted due to lack of communication.

Using instant messaging also a more convenient and faster way to interact, although it will never measure up to a real conversation.

Re:Does it really matter?

[Mac Degger]

What about IM:V; Instant Messaging: Voice.

Re:Does it really matter?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't want to interact socially with my co-workers. Except for the two redheads with big tits.

Re:Does it really matter?

[buysse]

You mean a fucking phone? We don't need a square wheel, thanks.

Re:Does it really matter?

[Mac Degger]

Nah...I'm talking about real VoIP (not the shit they're pushing as such...which is more akin to 'telephone with an IP adress' as opposed to actual voice over IP (complete with buddy lists, conference channels etc, all done over a network/IP so there are no costs involved [except if you're still on dialup]).

Just a mic on your pc and some software, no gateways to the telco's exchange.

Re:Does it really matter?

[buysse]

But, there will be costs involved in such a system. I can't think of a decent (usable by mere mortals) protocol that could support this type of communication without a central server of some sort. For conference channels, you would need to either send IP datagrams to *each host* in the channel, or send the data to a central server (we'll call this a central exchange) which will then multiplex the audio streams. This still leaves the problem of bandwidth on the client. To mux the streams, the protocol has two choices -- send the bits for each host's conversation to every recipient, or modify the signal to mux multiple audio streams in to a single stream (taking up processor time on the exchange). Either way, it's going to hurt.

Now, if we use something like freenet, which does not require a central server, it requires that the hosts be a) known to each other (authentication), and b) able to contact each other -- which won't be possible in a NAT'd world. Sure, you and I can configure a gateway to pass port 2174 to a given machine... now the person in the next office wants to run it too. Even then, you think that Joe Sixpack is going to be able to configure that? We're back to the need for a central service because of NAT issues.

I'm really not trying to piss in your Cheerios(tm) here -- if you have workable solutions for these problems, I'd like to hear them. I can't see the way to a free, decentralized solution -- at least not one that's generally useful to the world. If you have any ideas, I'd like to know.

-Josh

Re:Does it really matter?

[Mac Degger]

Well, in a company you'd just have a central server...just like IM is done if implemented properly (you don't want your internal comms to travel around for the whole net to see). But for non-conference calls, you just set up an IP to IP connection. No NAT problems.

For gaming conference calls, everyone would have to run both a client and server...but with modern gsm compression (which works well over even a 56k6 modem! You wouldn't want to play a game at the same time with such a connection though) and the low footprint (and the huge amounts of ram found in pc's nowadays) of that client and server (just look at what can be used right now...tiny!), the only remaining problem is latency...which people can live with very well (just ask people in developing countries...voice over pc is big there as it costs less than telephone). As for NAT issues when gaming...wouldn't you have those anyway?

Anyway, the point is that thanks to the power of modern pc's and broadband, I don't think the hardware is the limitation; the voice software can run without making the rest of the system significantly slower or breaking the bandwidth barrier. It'll have to be budgetted in during game development, but it'll run fine alongside office programs.

Not only that, but right now it's perfectly feasable to use something like Roger Wilco to do this (not optimal, not always usefull...but then again, IM and e-mail are only suitable for certain situations too).

I would like

[Timesprout]

to explain why this article is complete nonsense but I'm too depressed, feel the world is against me and I really dont feel like talking to anyone. Plus I just got a new laptop to play with.

Limits...

[Woxbert]

"He began to have relationship difficulties at work because he used e-mail, at one point, to communicate everything to his employees, be it good or bad."

This quote from the article makes me wonder whether we're reading too much into it. This is someone who replaced face to face communication with his employees. That's not a problem with technology: that's him being irrespsonsible.

I think (hope) that we all know there's a time and place for technology. Things like employee appraisals and agreeing big pieces of work should really be done face to face.

The question that we thought was being answered was whether having more technological gadgets would create problems for people in themselves?

I'm in the camp who believe that technology actually improves relationships when used appropriately, rather than damages him.

Friends overseas? It's a shame they're not here, but I can use ICQ to keep in touch with them.

Feel like a drink? I can call around my friends to see who's around.

Really want the obnoxious sex-mad guy to come? Just snap a photo/video of the cute girl next to you and he'll be along in a jiffy.

People can do more, in less time, with more people.

Everyone wins. Especially the communications companies.

Re:Limits...

[rainwalker]

This quote from the article makes me wonder whether we're reading too much into it. This is someone who replaced face to face communication with his employees. That's not a problem with technology: that's him being irrespsonsible.

FOOL!! Don't you realize that it is impossible for him to be responsible for his own actions?! No one can exert any control over their own lives! We all dance to the music played by forces beyond our control! Have you already forgotten that fast food makes people fat by forcing them to overeat? Personal responsibility is a myth perpetuated by those who want to limit your personal litigation, er, freedom!

Re:Limits...

[Anonymous Coward]

Really want the obnoxious sex-mad guy to come? Just snap a photo/video of the cute girl next to you [...]

Am I the only one who read a second meaning in this sentence?

With technology, you don't have to...

[dook43]

overcome anxiety, spell, use proper grammar, conjugate verbs correctly, capitalize, or explain acronyms, because the person on the other side of the IM knows exactly what you are talking about. This is not so in everyday social situations, unfortunately...

NEDS?! Shrinks need jobs

[SunPin]

This is a textbook example of FUD.

Adults need to be responsible for their lives. Yeah, sounds obvious but apparently people are still lost on this point.

Everything has a time and a place. Keep everything in its time and place and keeping your sanity is easy. Get sunshine. Go to the beach. If that's not possible, try a municipal pool.

Life isn't complicated. People in this article want to make it complicated because at some point along the way, they'll profit.

If you stay up until sunrise, down gallons of caffeine and live in chat rooms then that's your decision. The consequences might be depression and isolation. Those who don't like it need to change the variables in their life program.

Re:NEDS?! Shrinks need jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

Life isn't complicated?! What kind of fool are you?

Re:NEDS?! Shrinks need jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

Amen brother! All of what you said is true... if you choose to go to bed at 6 am, drink lots of caffiene, and pretty much don't talk to a lot of people in normal face to face conversation, you are not going anywhere. I am saying this from many years of college and out of school experience. It is a big dead end, so avoid at all costs.

Re:NEDS?! Shrinks need jobs

[bj8rn]

Still the question remains: what comes first - depression and isolation, or depending on technology?

If a person has to depend on chat rooms and instant messengers for relationships, there was probably something wrong already before this. They are not depressed because they drink a lot of coffee and live in chat rooms. They live in chat rooms, because they are depressed if they don't. Feeling depressed and isolated? IRC will help you. Can't handle your real life anymore? There's always an unreal one waiting. Etc. If your organism gets used to it, it's hard to be without. Not impossible, though -- but changing your lifestyle is difficult.

All you need is love

[DaoudaW]

Here is another link describing the same event. Its not quite as negative about the technology, but stronger on the need for a peculiar emotion called love.

Depression..

[slackingme]

Depression is a very real problem in the Tech sector; how many of us have stayed up fourty-eight hours straight coding/debugging/etc and spent the next two days feeling like shit? Programming and the like require such a level of concentration and focus that it's *draining* -- Not to mention many people are interested in this field because of the social isolation that one can experience. If you're afraid you might be depressed, try visiting moodchange.info or medicinenet for a more technical, geek-friendly description of the problem.

ObDisclaimer: Moodchange.info wants to sell you things, but it's still a reasonable site for information. Just ignore the sensationalism :)

Re:Depression..

[AntiOrganic]

Moodchange.info makes you pay for the results.

They don't tell you this before you spend 7 minutes taking the test.

Re:Depression..

[slackingme]

Arrrggghhhh, another case of something free going pay. It was a reasonable test a few months ago, and I thought as far as commercial sites go it gave pretty decent results. I'm sorry I wasted your time on that link, should have rechecked it.

Re:Depression..

[AntiOrganic]

What else am I going to do in the office? Work?

My 2 pennies

[truthsearch]

lonely - certainly, since they get less face-to-face contact
depressed - maybe, especially if they're feeling lonely
negative - Windows desktops will do that to you, they've done it to me ;)
anti-social - it helps us be lazy and stay within our small team
brilliant - makes them brilliant? I doubt that. You're either brilliant or you're not. Modes of communication can't change that.

Wrong conclusion!

[CrowScape]

very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social, brilliant people

Proof that contact with the masses dumbs you down. ^_^

Balance

[Snake_Plisken]

I work at a large web hosting company. We got a lot of bright people working for us that most of soceity would see as introverted. We got people locked away in secure rooms for most of their shift, etc - the human part is what makes working there a good thing. We are a very social company in the hallways, meeting areas, etc. Most people (including myself) say that they have very good friends at work, but few outside its walls. To a varying degree, we are a big 400 person family where I work - I think people (ok, myself) need to have the human interaction in order to maintain themselves. Technology roxxors, but there needs to be people to talk to, even if it is anime or what level your 3rd edition Ranger is.

Re:Balance

[ishmaelflood]

Interesting. I resent having friends at work (which I do). In order to do my job to my standards I /have/ to criticise other people's work, and I have to tell them to start all over again, and get their thinking straight.

I moved out of my old job partly because two of the people I worked with are friends from wayback. In my new job, which I probably got because two of the three people on the management people development commitee are my friends (grin), my informal, actual, job function is to talk to other people about the work that my section (computer aided engineering) is doing.

As to the article in general, it sounds like "whiny whiny whiny" to me.

Solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Send in a hooker once a week, that'll keep 'em happy

It's not true

[Sfing_ter]

at all, damn users can't leave well enough alone, or me. Stop bothering me, if i want to talk to you i'll remove your email address from my spam filter.

Balance

[Squiggle]

Why is it hard to remember?

Focusing your life around *anything* for long periods of time such that you exclude everything that used to keep you healthy and happy is not going to be good for you.

Bushism required

[segment]

Dubya: "Those techies aren't lonely, they just have no one to talk to, and speak with."

What's wrong with that????

[botzi]

'very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social, brilliant people.'"

Uuuuuh, duh???? It seems pretty much cool, you know, then again, may be I think so, coz I'm just very lonely depressed, negative, anti-social and unfortunately not brilliant.... But that's enough about me... this is /., you must understand.;oPPPPP

Ignorance is bliss..

[OmniVector]

I've always been a firm believer that if I wasn't as technologically compotent as I am, I'd probably be a much happier person in general. But you can't unlearn, and I've come to realize that I'd rather be aware of technology than let it overleap me.

cure

[Anonymous Coward]

you guys just all need to meet a girl. problem solved.

Virtual Unemployment

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been working on a project to turn entire groups and divisions of large companies into 'virtual workers' who telecomute and so don't need office space and who can be distributed around the world.

We have noticed that these workers exhibit all the symptoms of unemployment, such as being "very lonely, depressed, negative, and anti-social". It seems that being a virtual worker is to be virtually unemployed. This will be a serious emerging social issue as companies make this transition.

NEDS

[Anonymous Coward]

Sanders came to define the condition as "New Economy Depression Syndrome"

Oh! I see by the Big Board we got a Negative Nellie in Sector Two. Put down the cell phone/pda and go for a jogereno!

In other words...

[macemoneta]

'very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social, brilliant people.'

In other words, exactly what companies seem to want these days.

Well, I'll tell you what

[Anonymous Coward]

if it makes be brilliant, I don't mind also being depressed and antisocial.

Re:Well, I'll tell you what

[Anonymous Coward]

"if it makes be brilliant,"

My take on it

[ciurana]

According to Sanders, small groups of engineers who went to completely electronic communication in their workgroups became 'very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social, brilliant people.'

Bah! Humbug...

E

In a related story....

[_Sharp'r_]

In a related story, they're now claiming that owning Playboy gets you laid and that Blondes really do have more fun!

They'll be releasing a study soon about how much happier people are who spend their time doing things they like.

They seem to be missing some important....

[3seas]

Well damn, they just need to add in IRC with the outside world, and a few web cams....

Re:They seem to be missing some important....

[rusty0101]

They don't need webcams, just accounts on social web sites like VoyerDorm...

Near-Miss

[Penguinshit]

You know, when I started my career in IT, I was the happy helpful SysAdmin. I would cheerfully respond to request after request because I loved helping my fellow employees have a positive computing experience.

I never understood why people always thought SysAdmins were grumpy and belligerent.

However, now after a decade of thankless shit-catching, I am that grumpy and belligerent SysAdmin who believes that users are a fucking plague of idiots set loose in Biblical proportions upon my otherwise Utopian computer networks.

Comments such as "your message titled 'Virus Warning - Happy New Year' had the word 'Virus' in it, so I deleted it to be safe, but then I opened the next one that had an attachment called 'Happy New Year'. Now my computer doesn't work right..." (honest-to-God true story) have made me tend to side with the machines while watching such movies as "Terminator" and "Matrix", and to create tools named for the Borg which enforce draconian administration of my networks.

Are we anti-social because of the machines, or because people are morons?

Re:Near-Miss

[release7]

Of course people aren't going to fit into your logical world. People are quantum entities, not Newtonian. They are dictated by the world of probablility and there can never be any certainty.

You should realize this, get over it, face reality, and adjust to it. After all, that's the most logical thing to do. If you can't adjust to your environment, then look within, not out for the problem.

Re:Near-Miss

[JohnFluxx]

"who believes that users are a fucking plague of idiots set loose in Biblical proportions upon my otherwise Utopian computer networks."

Reminds me of Maltilda... when Miss Trunchball said that kids were a plague on a school, and that school would be much nicer without them :)

Re:Near-Miss

[Penguinshit]

"They are dictated by the world of probablility and there can never be any certainty."

The one certainty is this: The CEO's secretary is going to be the biggest pain in your ass, support-wise.

Re:Near-Miss

[minusthink]

let me guess. you've never had a sysadmin or techsupport job?

Re:Near-Miss

[Anonymous Coward]

Named for the Borg huh? Allow me to introduce an old network of mine!

• UnimatrixZero
  
• Collective (it was a file server, cute huh?)
  
• Subspacecomm (mail server, not really borg..)
  
• Onevoice (SQL)
  
• Onemind (SQL)
  
• Assimilator (DHCP, DNS, intranet, whatever)
  

All of the desktops were named Species-something, fun network. I cannot remember all of the servers as I no longer work there (thank God!), but it was a nice enough network. We had a ton of Catalyst switches also, but I think we named them for their location.

Quote

[Anonymous Coward]

"...very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social, brilliant people." I'd rather be brilliant.

in other news...

[geoff lane]

...water discovered to be wet ...fire is hot ...drinking at work breaks down barriers

brilliant!

[GromBulk]

'very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social, brilliant people.'"
Wow, I can become brilliant.

Re:brilliant!

[trompete]

It would be so nice if you could have your cake and eat it too, wouldn't it?

Re:brilliant!

[Gudlyf]

Wow, I can become brilliant.

Well that's not very negative of you, is it now?

Correlation != Cause and Effect

[kakos]

As many people have already pointed out, there is simply a correlation between technology and unhappy, depressed, anti-social geniuses. This is the easiest mistake a person can make when looking at correlations.

As any beginning psychology student can (should) tell you is that a correlation does not indicate a cause and effect. So, from this, we see that unhappy, depressed, anti-social geniuses use a lot of technology. We have a strong positive correlation between technology and depressed geniuses. It could be that technology causes it, or it could be that depressed geniuses like technology, or it could just be a coincidence.

In order figure out which it is, experiments need to be performed. Observation alone cannot figure this out.

Re:Correlation != Cause and Effect

[merovingian]

I don't think it's the technology itself that depresses. It's that technology can be used to eliminate the business need for most direct human contact - the kind of contact that humans have had with other humans in their daily lives since the Beginning (whichever one you believe in). Normal levels of human self-doubt or self-loathing can rise to become unbearable when a person is sufficiently isolated from reassuring social interaction. So, nothing about using the computer itself causes problems. Using IM, email, telephone, etc. to the extent that you rarely get to share a smile with a coworker will definitely cause problems.

Re:Correlation != Cause and Effect

[varontron]

You nailed it. This article could been about rock-n-roll and heroin. Technology is an "enabler" (to use the psych parlance) of a different problem. When I'm depressed, I tend to stay up later, accomplish less, etc. Before I had wireless in my house, I used the tv clicker and bowls full of dry fruity pebbles to facilitate insomnia. The sleep deprivation and a bad diet affected my mood, my productivity, and my attitude. Now with wireless, I use the internet instead.

The point is technology is unlikely the cause of these interpersonal problems. The are hundreds of everyday stressors, and a few major life changes that can cause problems. Retreating into tech is in a way a coping mechanism.

It is likely that any people in any businesses who are dedicated to their jobs/careers: police, musicians, school teachers, etc. all have vices which contribute to vicious cycles of negitude.

Nothing Changes

[Gonoff]

People have been criticising new technology for a long time.
For example, about 150 years ago, someone said how young women should not ride bicycles because it made them less attractive, had bad effects on their health & fertility and gave them grumpy looking faces.
More recently, it was forecast that telephones would cause people to loose touch with their friends and family. ffs Many people here only contact their family on the phone.
Up to the present, they said that children who played with their PC and consoles would be less able and mentally active than children who didn't. Then they realised that the kids who "didn't" were all on the couch watching TV. Any kid who was online or playing games was actually using their brain.

Conclusion?
People have been moaning about new ideas, music and technology for a very long time. I'm sure Aristotle had something to say on the matter and if his statement was put into a modern paper, nobody would notice. (if it was translated first!)

It's all downhill from here...

[X-Nc]

So what does it mean if you start out as a "very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social, brilliant" person?

Seriouslly if it weren't for my son I would just as well spend my whole life online. I'm tired of interfacing with mundane's. The only people I can stand are other techies.

Re:It's all downhill from here...

[Idarubicin]

I'm tired of interfacing with mundanes. The only people I can stand are other techies.

I've noticed some technical people have started (usually fondly) calling their users muggles. Anybody else seen this?

Odd

[Piquan]

I work from home. My coworker just IM'd me this link. You think they're trying to tell me something?

Lousy Jobs - Not Computers, make you Depressed

[rudy_wayne]

"The study, which monitored the mental-health changes of 25,000 Japanese high-tech workers over three years, found that employees who worked five hours or more in front of a computer were more prone to depression and anxiety."

Yes, it's true. If you spend several hours at a computer doing menial work that you hate, overseen by a boss you hate (and vice-versa) then you'll most likely become bitter, anxiety ridden and depressed.

On the other hand, I spend several hours a day sitting at a computer doing a job that I love and I'm not the least bit depressed. In fact, I look forward to going to work every day.

People had lousy jobs that sucked and made them depressed long before computers were invented. Let's quit blaming computers for all of society's ills.

Re:Lousy Jobs - Not Computers, make you Depressed

[Anonymous Coward]

It's easier to just blame something you don't understand. They've been doing it forever.

morose

[Anonymous Coward]

This story makes me want to kill myself.

Working alone makes you lonely, not computers

[neglige]

I think the problem here is that workers who work alone (with the help of a computer) become lonely. Makes sense. But that is a problem with the surroundings, not with the computer.

I work at the university, couple of hours per day at a computer. Still, the co-workes and I have lunch together, take the time off to grab a coffee, or just wander over into the room next door to have a chat.

So if you feel lonely/depressed, try to work with a group of people (you like - that, of course, is a prerequisite), close to them, maybe in the same room.

And... maybe... don't reload the Slashdot page every minute! (SCNR)

From the article

[Anonymous Coward]

Sanders, the chief solutions officer at Yahoo!, said his career was thriving in the mid-1990s, yet he began to feel increasingly empty. He noticed colleagues sending him instant messages from 5 feet away. He watched brilliant engineers slowly replace face-to-face relationships with lower-risk contact online.

Perhaps Mr. Sanders hasn't yet realized that everyone wants to avoid him because he's just another stinkin' executive. Most engineers loathe the C-level execs, you moron.

WRONG!

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in tech, and my last two relationships have been with people FROM work.

Wrong Title

[Anonymous Coward]

It should be:

Too Much Work Diminishes Tech Relationships?

It's wrong because:

[numbski]

Quite simply, too much work diminishes tech relationships. How many techs do you see dating? My point. :P

*For the peanut gallery, I'm getting married next months...*

Re:It's wrong because:

[SlamMan]

Dude. The Sims doesn't count,

Naah...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's what the pub's for...

This sounds great!

[Daetrin]

small groups of engineers who went to completely electronic communication in their workgroups became 'very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social, brilliant people.'

I'm already lonely, depressed, negative, and anti-social, but now i can become brilliant too! Sign me up!

Re:This sounds great!

[evilviper]

'very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social, brilliant people.'

I'm already lonely, depressed, negative, and anti-social, but now i can become brilliant too! Sign me up!

I don't know of any other kind of 'brilliant people'. No guarantees, but you've got what it takes!

Then again, one problem with being 'very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social,' is that you'll probably never know if you are brilliant...

Re:This sounds great!

[jpkunst]

Then again, one problem with being 'very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social,' is that you'll probably never know if you are brilliant...

You will probably convince yourself that you are brilliant.

JP

From Personal Experience

[Kirin3]

I'm certainly not going to be one of those folks who says an immediate 'yes' or 'no' to the question of technology turning us into things that we all know we're perfectly capable of without technology, but here is a different spin from some of the comments I've been reading:

(Keep in mind this is based on personal experiences)

- Many people do not own a landline phone unless they have ADSL.
- Many people do not use email anymore due to spam.
- Many people do not use IMs as they are far too many in number, and again have the spam issue.

This means they are often unavailable to a real-time communications, potentially emergency communications.

Some people take it to extremes, avoiding people by not using the methods they know their friends or family use, or by leaving everything to voicemail/email/IMs and simply ignoring messages. It's amazingly easy to ignore people when you have caller ID on your phones too.

Of those who do stay connected (often via every means possible), here are some behaviors I've noticed:

- Many people are getting obsessive about checking email, how much they're getting, and how they can get more without subscribing to mailing lists.
- Talking on the cellphone during obviously inappropriate and/or plain dangerous activities.
- Leaving their status as 'online' on all IMs to maybe increase the chance somebody wants to talk.
- Gotta have a landline, cellphone, PDA, MP3-man, [insert nifty new devices here].

I think more than anything, the current state of technology and communication is forcing the shy folks into hiding, and giving an amazing opportunity for all the people (worthy or not) of all that extra exposure to expose whatever it is they want to.

You're going to get morons. You're going to get brilliant individuals. And their profession really doesn't matter any more than it used to, the pace of life and the introduction of technology is simply accelerating people's reactions too.

The real problem

[Kostya]

Yes, anyone with some sense and normal social skills will feel the isolation of only using IM and email to communicate. But the real problem, the real source of frustration and stress are, well, the "true jerks".

This may seem obvious, but think about it. If you work remotely, is it that working remotely sucks or that the one real jerk you have to work with is empowered by IM and email to be even a greater jerk than he would normally be. Even real, genuine idiots and losers have no guts and will rarely treat you horribly to your face. But add some remoteness and the sense of safety that comes with email or IM, and you have a horrible working situation.

Sure, the tech can be isolating if you don't have any sense of balance. But what makes it intolerable and a real source of stress are these jerks. Yes, they would still be a jackass in person, but deep down you know they wouldn't have the guts to say what they are saying in email to your face.

Is it technology's fault? No. These people are jerks no matter what--they just use the technology that the rest of us enjoy to be even greater jerks. They are the genuine trolls and the losers who infest USENET--except they act this way in real life. They are everywhere you go--they just are more bold when they can hide behind a computer.

Re:The real problem

[StrawberryFrog]

Even real, genuine idiots and losers have no guts and will rarely treat you horribly to your face. But add some remoteness and the sense of safety that comes with email or IM

You have just accurately described the phenomenum of trolling, and not just then slashdot variety.

I don't believe it

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd say more, but I'm too busy writing a usb driver for my suicide machine.

This is quite subjective to begin with!

[ChilyWily]

I like to walk over to people's cubes and discuss issues over the whiteboard. Granted, these are people I wish to associate with - with or without IM (which I don't use) there are some people I do avoid simply because they don't do anything themselves and disrupt my work. I personally think the whole 'asocial' behavior thing for geeks is over rated.

Relationship difficulties

[VampireByte]

The obvious reason for Sanders having "relationship difficulties" is that he's a controlling jerk. Look at what's going on here... he's trying to tell us how to live our lives because he thinks he is superior. It's just another case of somebody getting rich and then trying to keep everyone else down.

Try paper

[Cranx]

I have to say, I agree. Unsolicited advice: try using paper more too. I've re-discovered hand-written notes and printing out documents that I used to try to read online when I got hooked into the "paperless office" notion back in the early-90's, and I must say, the more stuff I have on paper rather then on my computer, the easier my life is and the more productive I am. I know violent environmentalists are probably going to start sending me death threats, but I can't deny it: paper is just better for SO many things, and for SO many reasons.

Re:Try paper

[2short]

Blah! Count me for a death threat. On second thought just a maiming.

Any time someone walks into my office with something they've obviously just printed out (frequently a 3 word error message) the first thing out of my mouth is "Could you email that to me?"

If it's on paper, I can't manipulate it, and in any case, I'll lose it.

Re:Try paper

[NDPTAL85]

What about transferring the text to a PDA? How does that rub ya?

Re:Try paper

[Cranx]

No, you misunderstand me. I didn't mean to imply that anyone should go 100% paper, as I clearly couldn't survive long that way.

If I were working with you and had a document I wanted you to see, I would email you the source document right off the bat.

What I meant was, make more hand-written notes and try to do that less in your PDA. Also, if you have any document (either a word processor document or a web site page you've bookmarked) that you might need to refer back to over a long period of time or might need to do extensive reading on, try just printing it.

I found I was bookmarking everything and keeping everything on the computer and avoiding printing as much as possible. Ever since I started printing things out, I find I get more reading done, my notes are more accessible and editable to me; everything is just easier, the more I print.

Obviously though, there are advantages to NOT printing, such as sharing a document, or when you need to search for something in a document where a poor, or no, index exists.

I hope that made what I meant to say more clear this time. If not, another death threat should motivate me to try again.

Re:Try paper

[Cranx]

Rubs me fine. I'm not delusional; I'm getting a BOATLOAD of more work done by going into Outlook less and reaching for 3x5 cards more.

Re:Try paper

[2short]

I think I understand what you mean; the maiming threat stands :)

It sounds like you do better than most on unnecessary paper use. But it bugs me that in this day and age, most offices use more paper than they would have before computers. In the typewriter age, regenerating a document was a pain, and the paper version was the "real" one. Now, the electronic version is the "real" one, but people still print it out to read it or hand it to someone. Then they throw it away where once they would have filed it. Need it again, print it again.

I got a new computer at work about 8 months ago. I have yet to set up a printer connection. I just never print. I do have a legal pad on my desk for notes that don't need to live for more than a day or so. I go through one every few months. If there was something like whiteboard marker that wrote as finely as a ballpoint, and didn't get erased accidentally, I wouldn't need paper at all.

I don't see how a paper index is going to be better than the same one plus hyperlinks how anything can be considered "accessible" that isn't searchable, or how you can possibly think of paper as more "editable".

Re:Try paper

[Cranx]

I don't think I can make a blanket statement promoting using paper more because I think you're right on a lot of points, and for those reasons I still do a lot of paperless things.

I haven't been doing enough of it to really have a solid philosophy about it, but I do take a lot more hand-written notes than I used to (I always made notes right in Outlook or in my PDA) and when I've taken the plunge and printed out a long document I needed to read, I found it was just more accessible to have it in my hand than on my screen.

It's odd that way, because I know I still need it bookmarked or at least stored somewhere on my system so I can search for words inside it, but more often that search I will just hold the document, read it and flip back and forth between sections. I find that the flipping around part is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH easier to do with a hand-held paper printout than on the computer. Whether in OpenOffice browsing a document or Firebird browsing a web site, both have trouble letting me jump quickly around; they're just not good at "holding" your place in one place while you go read in another. Also, there's something about being able to see more of the document at once that helps me really get into it.

One Thing _is_ True

[jazman_777]

Too much Slashdot Diminishes Work.

Re:perhaps the other way around?

[carolinef]

Or then again perhaps it[IT] allows people who may not be comfortable talking face to face the opportunity to avoid face to face contact precisely when it is most needed.

I would find it very easy in my job to communicate entirely by email and IM, but I've found that a kind of "chinese whisper" effect takes hold and more uncertainty is introduced than would be the case in a face to face conversation. So I force myself to get out of my chair. Apparently there are good ergonomic side-effects to this too...

Pink Floyd Said it Well

[shoemakc]

What shall we use...To fill...the empty... spaces...Where...we used...to talk?

For some it's drugs, for others booze....and yet for others gadgets. They're always there for you and they never question you.

Rather then develop any sort of lasting personal relationships, a person can just continuely obsess about that new gadget you want. Once i get that new wireless phone/pda, I'll finally be cool; I'll finally be happy.

-Chris

introverts

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like yet another exec. who doesn't know an introvert when he sees one. When one is pointed out to him, he doesn't understand either. Probably thinks they are just defective, and can be "fixed" to be an extrovert just like he is. And we all know that everyone wants to be just like the execs!

I'll keep the brilliant the rest get eaten by:

[mrmeval]

http://www.kevinandkell.com/
http://www.sluggy.co m/
http://www.schlockmercenary.com
http://www.vi ncifruit.com/
http://www.comics.com/comics/roseis rose/index.html

For when you OD on the above.
http://jack.keenspace.com/

zerg

[Lord Omlette]

became 'very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social, brilliant people

In other words, it was a total success?

This is nonsense!

[Anonymous Coward]

Why, the relationships I've formed right here on Slashdot are as vibrant and fulfilling as any "real-world" relationship I've ever had!

...Shoot me. Now, please.

Re:This is nonsense!

[Lours]

Why, the relationships I've formed right here on Slashdot are as vibrant and fulfilling as any "real-world" relationship I've ever had!

I think you have a point here.
Some introverted computer freaks (count myself in) may use computers for the shielding it provides them against people who they usually don't want to be familiar with in their everyday life.
While this may reveal an initial lack of social skills, ie shyness, this does not mean that technology drives those people towards social isolation. If they are not yet thinking that people are bad and tech is good for them, they might very well use tech to find people more similar to them with whom they might have important fulfilling social interaction, be it via email, instant messaging or web forums in a first time, and physically in a second one if by chance they are not living too far away.

I had the occasion to meet a guy on IRC which I found quite brillant, humanly speaking, but was probably as a-social as I was at that time. For various reasons, I do not see him anymore but we had deep interesting conversations that we could not have with most people around us, some about technology, some philosophical, about our respective crushes of the moment, etc.
Clearly, we had nobody around available that we might have "used" as readily as we did to talk the "important" (to us at least) matters that we had in mind.
We were not wasting our time chatting about the weather or useless concernes, (I think) we were having a rather deep friendly relationship.
Tech actually helped us find a friend soul at that time.

I had other physical friends around, even in my cs classes, but though I think we estimated each other quite well and I still see them on a regular basis, we did not develop such kind of relation. I even noticed that we talked about more intimate subjects easily when we used IRC rather than oral communication.
This probably has to do with shyness : not seing the person you interact with, and more importantly not being seen by this person, helps a lot to overcome it. Perhaps we felt more equal and less being judged by others when facing a keyboard and screen.

I now regret to have lost contact with him and I should probably try to contact him again but this story shows indeed that tech can help meeting interesting people, though we met physically once only.

Overall, I think that tech does not encourage or limit our ability to communicate. Introverted people in need for social interaction can find it using computers. Even blogs can help find persons with interests approaching yours if you manage to make friends with their authors. They might be considered as the display of a narcissic and exhibitionist mind but perhaps do they instead say "hey, you, I am here, this I like, this I do, don't you too ? let's meet !".

All would be better of course if we all had the ability to (physically) communicate intimately even with people we are not familiar with, but I guess that this is something which requires training to acquire. Tech is a neutral tool and can help both for such training or to reinforce insolation. I guess that how it's used depends mostly on each person state of mind and global school/working conditions : if one gets to work in a stressful environment in front of a computer, then it seems logical to me that he will be (and thus feel) lonely and depressed. Someone whose job consists of talking to other brillant people will obviously not be depressed, if he gets to speak only with frustrated angry dumbasses, well, he most surely will too.

I sometimes think that the problem is that we do not get enough time outside work, if we had more, it might be easier to physically meet far-located internet buddies and thus get to have this social training that some of us lack.

But given how things work in a highly competitive environment I guess that we are not going this way. Every productivity gained is not used to diminish the amount of work each people do, but to produce more : we a

Did anyone read the article??

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone is saying, "Duh, geeks are antisocial." But the point of the article was (albeit anecdotal) evidence of behavior change that occurred after switching to less human contact. In other words, they may have been antisocial before, but they got worse.

They key term is "Skills"

[Zilfondel2]

Being able to "socialize" is a "skill." If you don't practice it, your skills will suffer.

People are also very emotional beings. Lack of being around people tends to make people depressed and lonely.

If you isolate yourself, the effects tend to snowball. This shouldn't be very controversial; it should be common sense.

Technology is a TOOL. Not a reason for existence.

Then why isn't it true for me?

[StarKruzr]

I am tremendously connected, same as you: cellphone, PDA, laptop all have one type of Internet connection or another, I spend most of my day at work on IM systems or email, and talk on the phone as part of my job.

Why is it that I seem to be able to also maintain an extremely active social life and take great pleasure in all kinds of offline activity? Is this balance so hard for the average person to reach? Is it one or the other for everyone else? That just seems an absurd proposition. I can't believe that it's that difficult if I seem to be able to do it so easily.

Re:Then why isn't it true for me?

[Paul d'Aoust]

I think different people have markedly different experiences. My guess is that surrounding oneself with technology (or any other collection of inanimate objects) can exacerbate an already existing condition in people.

Sit down and let me tell you a tale. I was sexually abused as a kid, so was at high risk for depression (abuse can be nasty) and insulating myself from the world (I learned, mistakenly, that the world was too dangerous). Once I discovered computers, I found an ideal way to escape from the world: these things were almost infinitely interesting (new stuff is being developed all the time), and I didn't have to deal with that scary thing we call "the world". (Of course, I didn't realize at the time that that was one of my motives.) Whee! What a great hobby!

Now, years later, I'm trying to reconnect myself with the real world after going through a years-long episode of depression. It's not easy, and it's kinda frightening. But I notice that every time I start burrowing myself in my computery hobby, I'm always more depressed and disconnected from the world.

I realize that my experience may be different from other people's, but I just wanted to illustrate that a predisposition to depression can be "turned on" by heavy computer use.

Close but no cigar

[rinkjustice]

Lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social, bri... damn! Oh well, 4 out of 5 ain't bad.

huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

they needed to conduct a study for that?

I think it's a control issue

[YllabianBitPipe]

I notice that I feel at ease working with comptuers because I understand it's behavior. I can get it to do what I want when I want it, and yeah, sometimes it crashes or does things I can't control / predict, but I can always reboot and start from scratch. It's a very safe, predictable environment once you spend a lot of time there.

And I do think if you spend a lot of time in this environment, people begin to seem comparatively, irrational, hard to predict, hard to control, and no, you can't just hit the reset button when they start acting up.

So, I think your last sentence is a bit of both: many people ARE morons (or, as I would say, irrational and hard to predict / control / work with), but most people don't notice. And one can't really make that obseration unless one doesn't interact with other people all the time.

Re:I think it's a control issue

[Anonymous Coward]

You understand the computer's behavior because you learned how. Understanding the way people behave is just another skill to learn. Try picking up a few books on the subject.

totally agree.

[YllabianBitPipe]

Take a look at anti-social types like the unabomber, who was anti-technology and lived out in the woods. Many people who choose to withdraw from society, run off into the woods and live hermit like. Now, would someone say, "the woods" is the reason why they are anti social and depressed? Maybe. But it makes more sense to say, these people were anti social to begin with and choose to express it in this way. Same thing with computers.

Hmmmm just Maybe

[Anonymous Coward]

it could be the fact that they worked for Yahoo!

The solution...

[azav]

Listen to http://www.protonradio.com (click tune in), get your groove on and go out and dance dammit!

If you're gonna be a geek, you might as well have fun doing it. Alex Zavatone : ]

give me a break

[Aeonsfx]

Aw, c'mon. Technology isn't necesarily anti-people, though it can be if the person isn't sociable to begin with. But then again, I'm a pretty shy person, and thanks to technology, I've met all kinds of interesting people, have all kinds of interesting discussions, and have all kinds of interesting hobbies... Now, tell me, what is detrimental about that? Maybe its to geeky for them? hmm??

It's a dominance issue.

[Population]

If I want you to drop everything and service me, I am superior.

If I am talking and you are writing, I am superior. Think old time boss and secretary. Boss talks, secretary takes dictation.

Dominance games are usually the worst means of communicating anything other than who is dominant.

Suppose a person who has an emotional need
to establish dominance over others also likes tech toys? There are lots of these people. They buy the latest toy just because it is the latest toy. They have an emotional need to have something before other people have it.

But those toys don't give them the dominance feedback that they also need. They play with their toys and the discover there is something missing that the toys aren't providing.

Get therapy. Find out why you want the newest toys. Find out why using them makes you feel "isolated" and "alone".

I'll send email to someone sitting right next to me. But only if I think he's busy on a project and wouldn't like to be interrupted or if I can more clearly express myself in an email (or to cover my ass by having a digital record).

This isn't about technology. This is about people interacting with other people.

Re:It's a dominance issue.

[Anonymous Coward]

You're both full of shit and short sighted, different people deal with completing tasks in different ways. Some people can attack problems in a multi threaded manner while others use a linear method.

Which method is "better"? Who is really the pain in the ass to deal with? oh... that's right, the one who is not willing to adapt and meet at some middle ground, and who would rather bitch than confront an issue and deal with it. "I am superior because my brain can perform abstract functions better than those ignorant cows that just enjoy life rather than strive to control it, y'know, those people that don't like to talk to me because I'm always scoffing at them for not getting "it"."

It has nothing to do with dominace. Who is funding your paycheck? that's right, the client. Holy shit, imagine that!

"This isn't about technology. This is about people interacting with other people." So true, and you don't even get it. Did you read the article before you chose to open your pie hole? I didn't.

My life is controlled by the lecture circuit.

[Population]

Hey, I just wrote a book describing the pain I just escaped from and I'd like some of your time to explain it to you because I feel that you just might be living the same pain I was living.

By the way, I'm also giving a lecture about it.

Next year, I'll be giving a lecture about the new book I wrote about being on the lecture circuit promoting the last book I wrote and how painful the lecture circuit was.

The book after that will be about how I found myself addicted to the lecture circuit despite the pain.

I'll happily autograph your copy of my book after the lecture.

RE: Too Much Tech Diminishes Work Relationships?

[Tacoguy]

Having been an EE and a developer since 1976 ... I have some background. I however have a different slant than the author. It seems to me that everyone takes a career path. While MBA's and EE's seem to be different, they can be very zealous to their careers to the point of excluding all other issues in their lives. Regardless of the disciplne, one must step back and put life in perspective. Best Jeff

Bunch of hooey

[Anonymous Coward]

I for one think it's not technology, but people that cause lonliness. The less I'm around people, the less lonely I get. Even Job in the Bible didn't get pissed off until his friends arrived ont he scene. It's not a lack of people, but a lack of thought.

MOD PARENT UP

[Wolfrider]

Interesting stuff.

This does not make sense..

[iramkumar]

I went through the article but could not but help noticing that it relied on "anecdotal" and not "scientific" evidence. For example were there any controlled experiments between users and non users of technology ? Were there historical comparisons under different economical conditions ?

People have problems with technology because they dont learn how to use it or what to use it for before using it. For example on getting a cellphone lots of people try to "overuse" them atleast during the initial period because of all the hype about being "always in touch".

Personally I have found that going all electronic has helped me a lot in taking out stress from work relationships. I tend to be free from personal influences and biases and also it helps foster accountability.

Also, it does not mean that I never talk to my coworkers or boss. Every week we play a new "outdoor game" and discover quite a few unique things about each other.

I think most of the problems described by the author is because of the "i got it so i have to use it" mindset. Get that out of the system. Just because we have a new fancy gizmo does not in itself mean that you have to use it fulltime and get you "high" ASAP.

Overload?

[BlackShirt]

"constant interruption by technology (think e-mail, instant messaging and cell phones)" Read e-mail once a day, don't use messenger, turn off mobile or switch it so ring tone depends who is calling. Simple solutions.

-2 cheesy

[Paul d'Aoust]

yeah, I know. it was cheesy. And I also forgot to close the list, AND... I called it a

instead of a
. So shoot me ^_^

How to lose your job in 10 days

[xintegerx]

"I'm already lonely, depressed, negative, and anti-social, but now i can become brilliant too! Sign me up!

Howard Dean for President [deanforamerica.com] "

I must be one of a few people who realized that last line is your sig, and only because we've seen it before. Dude, you covered the "steps you need to lose your job" pretty well:

1) Get job as intern for presidential candidate
2) Insult top boss in front of thousands
3) ???
4) Profit (?)

I'm just kidding around man... Everybody knows slashdot's readership is too fat to go out in public infront of their community into one spot and face their adversaries on voting day... ;)

Re:How to lose your job in 10 days

[Daetrin]

I must be one of a few people who realized that last line is your sig, and only because we've seen it before.

Did you mean to say "one of only a few"? Otherwise it doesn't make much sense. I congratulate you on your great mental feat in recognizing the difference between "Howard Dean" the signature, and "Howard Dean for President" the campaign slogan. I'm sure you're right, most other people on slashdot are confused by the several dozen posters (at least) they think are claiming to be Howard Dean.

Everybody knows slashdot's readership is too fat to go out in public infront of their community into one spot and face their adversaries on voting day

Wow, you must be from strange country where the contestants face off in giant election day Mortal Kombat.

Here in america, we don't gather together in a large group in election day to battle our adversaries, instead people go individualy or in small groups to polling centers, where there are small booths where they perform the actual voting. So they're not actually being seen in front of their community while voting, and they neither the politicans running nor the electorate face off against their adversaries.

This is really unusual, i managed to do a better job of insulting myself than the incoherent responder! :) Good job xintegerx! You have secured your place in history!

Anti-Social

[glenrm]

Maybe they are just being anti-social to Tim Sanders, a Yahoo exec.

Fair price for brilliance

[Kris_J]

More seriously, social networks break down for a number of reasons. I like to think that my efforts creating a company BBS for all off our scattered regional offices will bring more people closer together than tear them apart.

New Economy Depression Syndrome = crappola

[Anonymous Coward]

"I saw a paradox," he said, "a world of community with loneliness."

Sanders came to define the condition as "New Economy Depression Syndrome,"

Because most of his examples are anecdotal, Sanders has teamed with Heart Math, a research, training and consulting company, to scientifically test his theory.

__________-

This Sanders guy has the hallmarks of a snake oil salesman.

Concoct a bogus syndrome - New Economy Depression Syndrome

Employ solely anecdotal evidence

Hire a commercial firm with conflicting financial interests to administer the only study of this new syndrome.

Present your 'findings' at management seminars rather than academic/research venues.

then sell books , tapes, and seminars which purport to offer remedies for your newfound syndrome.

But what caused what?

[stokes]

I'll admit up front that I haven't more than skimmed the linked article, but this sort of question comes up fairly often and in more general terms: which is the cause and which is the symptom? Did more tech make the techies less social and more isolated, or did those with antisocial tendencies gravitate toward the more technical jobs? It stikes me as similar to the argument that violent movies and video games make children violent, as opposed to already violent children happening to especially like violent games and movies.

What?

[brj]

'[blah], [blah], [blah], [blah], brilliant people.' Sounds good to me.

very lonely, depressed . . .

[Maxwell'sSilverLART]

very lonely, depressed, negative, anti-social, brilliant people.

So this will make me brilliant? Sign me up!

mod up funny please

[ishmaelflood]

even if it is from an AC

E-Mail CYA

[darkmeridian]

I've prefer e-mail for communication in work because it affords me the opportunity to think twice or even thrice before "saying" anything. Keeps me out of trouble. Also, co-workers can't deny receiving data from me if I have the sent mail receipt and an exact transcript of what I sent and when I sent it.

How is this different from watching TV?

[Mnemennth]

Oh yeah... the brilliant part.
As for the antisocial part, well... Mark Twain said it best:
The more people I meet, the more I like my dog.

BTW, my dog is a complete assh*le.

Mnem

Machines don't bite

[heironymouscoward]

It's true that technology is a poor substitute for a happy social life, but at the same time, technology doesn't start lawsuits, sleep around, kill your dog, or burgle your home.
People easily cause much more grief than technology does, and I think a large part of the geek's preference for machines is a desire to avoid that kind of shit.
Personally I'm happy to spend time with people and accept the bad with the good, and I prefer an evening in a cafe to an evening with Slashdot. But it's not always easy. An active social life can often be a road straight into hell.

Tool little socialzation degrades mental help

[DescData]

I worked a summer working nightshirt at a factory, grinding electrical enclosures. I was standing right next to a group of guys, but with the noise, you can't hear anyone. During the day, I was home when everyone else was at work. It was a lonely time, but the technology had nothing to do with it.

I was one of those sending e-mail to my teammate in the next cube. I would still do it. It documents the discussion.

What I wish I read and have not, is that workers need to get over the idea that work life is social life. What happens when the job is over? People need a varied social life to be mentally healthy.

I may sound like I'm contradicting my self, but I'm not. Making regular eye to eye contact does help social relationships. I worked in a team that wrote custom software for the overseas offices. My relations with one engineer were a little stressed. I worked in his office for a bit, and it did help.

So use the technology. If things get stressed, get together. And make friends outside work.

Lies!

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear hi-techs,

Please note that this article is pure propaganda. What the establishment wants its to keep you close and monitor your activity. Working from home gives you to much power over your life. Something that the low-techs or management/comercial/marketing dont want you to have.

Fight it!