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Ernie Ball - Model For Open-Source Transition?
fr0z writes "
Ernie Ball is a company that makes guitar strings. After being raided by the BSA in 2000 without warning and fined $100,000 for a few unlicensed copies of software, CEO Sterling Ball vowed not to give another cent to Microsoft and within 6 months, according to CNET News, had the whole company switched to Red Hat Linux, OpenOffice.org, Mozilla, and other free software."
...it might just be me, but is that a Windows 2003 Server ad that appears on the page along with Ernie Ball's story?
Maybe the BSA should carry out more raids and "convert" more people to Linux!
After being raided by the BSA in 2000
Hey, I knew we went overboard with the Patriot act, but when did the BSA (Boyscouts of America) start doing raids?!?
Just another day in Paradise
...I'd like to know what Accounting software they use... gnuCash?
:-D
Anyways - my axe wil be enjoying openSource crafted strings from now
Yep - hauling out my piano and dumping it. It's time to learn to play guitar.
I wanna support these guys and I'd feel pretty silly just buying strings.
Alan.
Im sure its incredably difficult to do that when you have a hundred or so machines. Plus in the article it says some of the unlicenced computers were hand me downs - which is unfair to make people re license anyway
Slashdot - The one stop shop for procrastination
2. Switch to Linux et al.
3. Profit.
Other companies have likely done similar but it's the publicity that counts more than anything - an actual success story with Linux from a company with clout should turn a few heards in the direction of open source.
If instead of sending in the cops to raid him they had send him a polite letter explaining where there might be a problem it probably would have been very different. But they make the licences so crazy that you almost can't help violate them in one way or another if you have a lot of computers.
From the interview it sounds like they were trying to play by the rules, ok maybe their audits where not as good as they should be, but lets be honest most folks have better things to do then audit software once a month.
Erlang Developer and podcaster
I don't care if we have to buy 10,000 abacuses
I bet Abacus Inc is pretty pissed at the Red Hat right now. That's one big contract to miss out on.
Did you actually read the whole article? His version of the facts is that the BSA complained (among other things, maybe) about unused software that had not been properly deleted from some hard drives when after moving a PC from a department to another. In total, he had something like 8 percent of non-licensed software. And anyway, he said that his main problem was not the about paying for the software, but in the way the BSA raided his company.
If is true that if you have to pay the legal expenses of the BSA while they prosecute you, then it is time for a flood of feeble "In Soviet America" jokes. Perhaps someone who is a lawyer could explain the situation?
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
It's hard to keep up with licenses at a small company. I'd venture to say most companies with 50 computers or less have at most one IT person to handle everything. A company with 150-200 clients and a few servers might have 2-3 IT people if they are lucky.
The only reasonable way such a company can ensure full licenses is to pay MS's outrageous "protection money". I forget what they call it, something like "software assurance". When the BSA comes in, you are guilty until proven innocent. Most companies roll over.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
Accidents happen. And it's not always because people slack off. People trip and fall all the time, but we don't go around with our shoe laces untied. We don't walk down the yellow line of a two way road to get to where we want to. Companies don't intend to put the wrong dollar amount on your pay cheque that goes into direct deposit.
But you know what... it happens. It's live. We aren't robots. We tie our shoe laces, try and stay on the side walks and we sign agreements to say, "If we get overpaid, or udner, the company can rectify that w/ the bank directly, w/o us."
There are people who live dangerously, stealing stuff left and right, making a killing and never get caught. This is a case of someone unconsciously making a mistake (misteak, mmmm) and accidentally having one too many copies installed.
If YOU never break the law, kudos to you. I commend you. Hell, run for president. But the rest of us don't mind having judges to weed out the guilty from the innocent. And that same group understands, those same people are fallible. It's why we have a multi layered court system.
The rest of us are human and expected to be treated as such.
TYVM.
--
"I'm not bright. Big words confuse me. But Wanda loves me and that should be enough for you." - Cosmo
Just to get the story _really_ straight:
He wasn't objecting to being nonconformant, license-wise. He is objecting to the manner in which he was treated as a customer. He objected to the very heavy-handed way they treated it, and to the way they decided to hang him out publicly as an example. He also objects to the steep fines imposed (without any court sanction), and the way the law in practice makes it impossible for smaller businesses to contest the BSA assertions in court.
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
i don't agree with M$/BSA methods. but legally, they have the right, and there's not a real excuse to not follow the terms and conditions of a license if you are running a professional business.
That's absolutely correct.
I have a business myself and I tell all my staff "don't use unlicenced software" and they do exactly as I say. And I say, "If you buy software, remember to put the licence and CD-ROM in the software cupboard", and that's what everyone does. And I say "if you buy a computer or recieve a second hand computer, make sure you have all the licences". And do you know, all my staff do that too. Dealing with staff is easy. You just tell them what to do, and they always do it, to the letter, and never forget, and everything is always neat and tidy and wonderfully efficient.
[/end of sarcasm]
I trust you don't actually run your own business with lots of staff?
We have a number of medium sized enterprises *fully* migrated to Open Source software, and running *way* better on it.
Our best known (in the UK at least) case study is here.
In fact the Group consider Open Source to not merely be a 'substitute' for Microsoft Software, but to have delivered far more real, measurable business benefit than they ever received as a Microsoft Shop.
I am glad Ernie Ball are receiving this great press for their *complete* migration, but they are by no means the first (or the last!) decent-sized enterprise to have done this.
Do not taunt Happy Ernie Bal...er.. wait, wrong ball.
Mr. Ball sounds like a practical businessman, he sounds passionate and as if he enjoys what he does. I wonder if he would be receptive to a business proposition in which he would be featured in commercial advertisements and perhaps provide more precise figures about what it costs him (as he said that analysts are too pessimistic).
As more people like Mr. Ball speak out, the open source community is gaining more people who understand business and can convince other businesses. This man understands that free software can still cost money, and he has the personal experience and business acumen to be able to boil things down to the most important, concise points. He mentiones several important points in his interview, and probably has tons more knowledge that would be useful to making open source a better business solution, and making open source profitable.
It might not be such a bad idea for companies and individuals who are considering funding open source projects to listen to such people when considering project goals. And it would not be so difficult for free software organizations to initiate commerical projects including creating advertisements and articles based on solid, no-nonsense business cases for open source featuring real-world successes like Ernie Ball.
Noone said it's not legal. It's just not a nice way to treat customers. It gives them motivation to leave licenses behind.
In 10 years, we might be saying that the BSA was the worst thing that ever happened to Microsoft and the primary reason that Linux attained desktop market dominance in the corporate world.
Hey a man can dream can't he?
Most businesses being small businesses or starting out as small businesses' aren't that savvy about IP law. Or the DCMA. In the end the market will react either by the software vendors backing off, the law changing, or people doing what this guy did and choosing alternatives.
Show me proof of ownership for your toilet. Bet you can't!
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
I think the point the fact he got raided and sued. If they had sent his company a polite letter stating that they believed he was in violation of some licenes, please do an audit and check, etc etc then he would have probably complied and everyone (supposedly) is happy.
But no, they wanted to make an example of him and so they did. Its just now its an example of how to get away from that world.
J.
[Hope is the cruellest curse]
He got caught because in the process of running a business, he decided not to devote absolutely ridiculuous amounts of time to wiping the harddrives of unused PCs.
And before you accuse the guy of whining, note that he paid his fine, in addition to the presumably hundreds of thousands of legitimate licensing fees that he'd already paid to BSA members.
Now he's doing precisely what a smart businessman should do: recognize that the cost of policing for such tiny violations (and the potential fines that can result) is much higher than the software is worth. He's taking his business elsewhere. And good for him.
No, they don't gloss over it. He specifically states that
a) They weren't using it (but it was unintentionally left installed on the wrong machines.)
and
b) He was willing to make restitution, providing MS had offered him a voluntary audit and a fair price on the 5 machines that were infringing.
He washed his hands of MS because they wanted to make an example out of him. That's a bad way to treat a customer, and he bailed on them.
Hear Hear!
Keeping track of software licenses and so on is a real pain in the neck. So-much-so, MS will sell you tools to help you do it. Isn't that nice of them?
I like the way he's (Ball) looked on this though. PCs and their software are just tools. Does it matter what it is, as long as it does the job cheaply and effeciently? How many people have I asked what version of Windows/Office they have on their PC and receive the reply "Microsoft"? Far too many. Companies buy Microsoft because that's what you buy. Same way people only bought IBM PCs because nobody ever got fired for buying IBM.
Just wait, it'll all change.
But I've got to tell you, I couldn't have built my business without Microsoft, so I thank them. Now that I'm not so bitter, I'm glad I'm in the position I'm in. They made that possible, and I thank them.
I'll take that to mean that when he needed the software that Open Source wasn't around yet. But I wonder if we'll see that quote used by Microsoft anyway.
DT
Is this thing on? Hello?
Listen to him guys, he's a CEO.
Now I'm going to take those Fenders off, thay don't twang like they used to, and get me some Ernie Balls.
No but, yeah but, no but...
Not really using illegal software, rather just 'possesion'.
If software is on your PC but you never use it, is it being used illegally?
No sharp objects, I'm a programmer!
The point is that he wasn't trying to steal.
They were not intending to defraud, just poor computer administration led to some accidental license violations.
The offensive part is they didn't give an opportunity to clean up the mess when it was pointed out by deleting the unused software, or buying the software. They didn't work with him to develop a system to track this, or even give a nice little FAQ to help him out.
Instead of working with their customer, they settled for $100,000, for 6 infringing computers? $17k per computer in fines and penalties. That's ridiculous, all the software is a fraction of that cost.
When a person makes a mistake, it is reasonable to point it out and suggest that more care should be taken to avoid this in the future. Expecting them to pay for any damage they caused is also reasonable.
Please. Every company I have ever worked in is "out of compliance" by some amount. I am talking big firms, small firms and everything in between.
The fact is, if you read the article, that he was most upset by how he was treated by the BSA and Microfoft. Which I am guessing you have never had the pleasure of sitting through, either.
Freedom Is Universal
Linux-Universe
[...] the developers need to start writing the real-world applications people need to run a business...engineering, art and design tools, that kind of stuff...They're all trying to build servers that already exist and do a whole bunch of stuff that's already out there...I think there's a lot of room to not just create an alternative to Microsoft but really take the next step and do something new.
This is the argument I always get into when my friends ask me why I don't use Linux or BSD or whatever. There is not enough non-server software out there. GIMP is pretty much the only raster graphics package out there, Win32 has Photoshop, Paint Shop Pro, Corel Photo Paint, Fireworks, Painter, etc. I can chose between Illustrator, Freehand and Corel Draw for vector graphics. Combustion, Avid, Premiere, After Effects, etc. It's all good and fine that I can write a letter, do my taxes and the like on a *nix machine, but I need to actually work now and then and the applications *still* aren't there.
I have had to take a heavy hand to the machines and employees here a few times in recent past due to unlicensed software usage. A couple people took it upon themselves to install copies of Autocad on their machines to 'improve their efficeincy'. We do have a couple AC licenses, but not for these machines. One person was suspended the other just given a warning.
As a geek, Ernie's story is pretty cool, and I am happy to say I support the company financially as well by buying their strings.
tinfoilmedia
Oh yeah, now we have to shell out money just to manage the licensing. And you know what, it takes one person, JUST one, to install the wrong piece of software, N amount of times, NOT the CEO, NOT the CTO, not even someone in management, to install THAT piece of software somewhere, call the BSA, and cause a shit load of trouble.
The ratio of the least amount of people to cause trouble, vs the amount of damage caused, just for illegal softare installed is WAY too high and too fast to accrue.
BTW, It's called due process and due dilligence. You TRY to do your best, even when you fail. Or would you rather your first speeding ticket, your first petty crime, your first major crime, be taken out to the fullest conviction, or would you rather the judge understand, "Wait, it was a mistake (if it can be proven as such) or this person usually, 99% of the time, does the right thing. A slap on the wrist makes more sense."
Or maybe you are one of those who has enough cash, that if you do make a mistake, you can just blow it off. I'm sorry buddy, most of us don't.
And you know what, companies don't have to buy MS 'cause you don't have to. OO, Linux, Java, Tomcat, Struts, Apache, GnuCash, Pan, Evolution.. they are all viable. And you know what... just 'cuz some people do get fired for using opensource doesn't mean I won't. If anything, when time rolls around, and the proof is in the pudding, people will see. Not that OSS is right for everyone, but it isn't wrong.
--
"I'm not bright. Big words confuse me. But Wanda loves me and that should be enough for you." - Cosmo
You're right, and Mr. Ball wasn't disputing the fact that he wasn't in compliance. He was complaining about the way he was treated--armed marshalls knocking on the door and lots of negative publicity pushed by the BSA.
Nobody's arguing the fact that a license is a license, no matter how unfair it is. But as a business-to-business relationship, it would have been MUCH more beneficial for Microsoft to have first approached Ernie Ball outlining the problem and allowing them to correct it before showing up at their door with a warrant and pasting the raid all over the news. And that's all he's saying.
Shouldn't all the closed-source vs open-source TCO comparisons include fines like this in the TCO for closed software? It's extremely hard for companies to ensure complete licence compliance, which combined with the difficulty of fighting the BSA makes this something that could happen to any company.
Isn't it standard practice to include potential scenarios like this in business plans, weighted with the probability of it occuring?
Yeah, there are some things that are tough to find, like payroll software. We found something, and it works well. But the developers need to start writing the real-world applications people need to run a business...engineering, art and design tools, that kind of stuff...They're all trying to build servers that already exist and do a whole bunch of stuff that's already out there...I think there's a lot of room to not just create an alternative to Microsoft but really take the next step and do something new.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Yeah, no kidding.
At my last job, I did corporate information security for several years for a large ISP.
We had specific policy regarding everything to do with software and just about everyone infringed at some point.
For example, Playing games at work == termination. At any given time, I could dump an interface on a firewall at any of our offices and see Quake3 or Counter-strike games being played. The people who 'could not be behind the proxy or nat due to their job function' would often try and set up game servers.
This sort of thing seems to be rampant in technical businesses. A large percentage of technical types feel that they are smart, the exception, or somehow immune to company policy. Combine this with a slacker attitude and you have some problems. What they don't understand, there is a whole world of people playing catchup to the American technical market. Soon enough, they'll have all our jobs. My last position was eliminated when they announced 3000 of our call center employees and three offices were shutting down due to their spiffy new contract with a support company in India.
Anyway, back to the software licence issues. For organizations like the BSA, any sizable office is an easy target, as unless the IT group comes across as 'network nazis', software policy will be ignored by most.
I once worked at a smaller firm who would make employees pay out of pocket for any licence infractions they caused. One guy got stuck with the option of finding a new job or pay for the company's costs surrounding an unlicenced suite of Adobe products. I think it cost him around $3k. He paid it, then got canned a few months later for going on a week-long coke binge. He forgot to schedule some vacation time for it.
Just about everything, have you listened to it?
Home Automation & Linux -- now I know I'm a geek
RTFA. This is a new interview with Sterling Ball, published yesterday. It's nice to see a status report, including the fact that the company is ditching its SCO systems because of the lawsuit.
I wouldn't be surprised if we started seeing more switches from proprietary to oss in the future.
Even if in the IT biz we've accustomed to accepting very very ugly tactics if they're even remotely legally justifiable, it doesn't mean all businesses will want to have anything to do with corporations that employ such if there are alternatives.
Sometimes I wonder when stuff like 'the customer is always right' and such disappeared from the software industry. Well, not all of it. Shops doing custom stuff usually still treat their clients with some respect, at least way better than the large ones with a forcefed product portfolio do. But overall the software biz is starting to resemble some sort of drug pushing operation:
"you know you need our product",
"oh, that was yesterdays price, it's just doubled",
"should you consider not conforming, you can expect a visit from a couple of our friends".
So if a shoplifter is caught stealing a bottle of whiskey, or a multipack of cigarettes, or a pack of nappies after shopping there without incident for a period, should he/she be treated leniantly?
Good grief, settle down. That's not a good analogy for this case. In this case, it's as if your kid tries to carry a pack of gum out of the store along with your $100 of groceries you just bought, and they fine you $5000 and put your picture up in the lobby to make an example out of you and your beligerent child.
There didn't appear to be any intent to pirate in the Ball case, but the BSA was looking for an example for cheap press. They got the press they deserved.
On your way to the chair, which of the following are you going to consider the more legitimate response?
- Information wants to be free! Fight the RIAA!
- The law's the law. I had MP3s on my machine, I deserve to die. It's perfectly simple keep MP3s off of my computers, and I didn't take the necessary precautions, as a responsible business owner, to ensure my employees stayed in full compliance of the law by regularly writing, installing, and running scripts to delete
.MP3 files and cutting off the hands of those employees caught with Kazaa Lite installed on their machines.
- Ok, ok, I broke the law, but don't you think this is just a little bit extreme? I'm perfectly prepared to pay restitution under normal circumstances, but frankly, the RIAA and Congress suck for putting into place these laws and I'm not leaving a penny to Mary Bono in my will.
The answer is probably (3). Heaven help us if it's (1) or (2). My understanding is that Ernie's worldview is also of (3). While we may not be talking about consequences as extreme as the above, we're still talking about a case where the punishment was, in Ernie's opinion, way out of proportion to the crime.It's perfectly legitimate for him to consider that something to complain about. It's also perfectly legitimate for the Slashdot editors to agree with him, because a six digit penalty for an almost certainly accidental three or four digit dollar figure piracy crime does seem just a tad... over the top.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
They were considering Apple three years ago. He probably didn't care whether the stock had voting rights or not; he didn't want to do anything to benefit M$ in any way, shape or form.
Wouldn't going to the cafeteria or out on the balcony for a 10 minute talk, laugh, cup of coffee or a smoke help someone relax better than playing Minesweeper or browsing the Web? It would helps the body and the mind better than keeping on crouching in front of the computer. I've seen a company once where they had a lounge room complete with toy basketball sponge ball and hoop. As long as people remind to not abuse the privilege it works better than anything they could've done on their PC to "relax".
If I have read the Article correctly the BSA was accompanied by armed marshals and therefore must have had a search warrant for the offices of Ernie Ball. What I do not understand is why the BSA even could get such warrants.
In Germany where I live only the district attorney can issue such warrants and only the police or federal agencies may search buildings using that warrant. The person(s) who made the allegations may not even be present during the search.
And since shrink-wrap licences are (still) illegal in germany the BSA would not even get the district attorney to issue such a warrant since only common contractual law applies to software purchases.
So they can go to my office but I don't have to let them in.
Giving some pressure group federal powers seems a bit odd to me.
Us business owners need BUSINESS applications. We don't need servers. We don't needs cutesy tools. We need some business apps. If someone wanted to sell me an OSS package, all ready to go, I'd look at it. As is, I'd have to cobble it together myself, and I just don't have the time. Software is just another tool, and nobody who's in business has time or money to dick around with software. If someone came to me and said, "we can set up your POS workstations for you at $1000 each, I'd be all over it. I don't want to have to hunt around for an OS, figure out how to configure the goddamned thing, then find some POS software, then figure out how to install it, configure it, compile it, whatever.
Anyone see the irony that he pretty well recovered the amount of the fine in one hit when he went open source? I guess he must be well ahead by now.
I realize this may be slightly off-topic, but could someone from /. get that IT department to possibly field a few questions? Such as how they planned & executed the move, the size of the installed base, etc...I'd really like to see how they got that move made so fast.
Sorry, but it's (Word or Excel 97/2000/XP incompatibilities) a daily event here, in a major consulting engineering company that works with your big-league manucturers and oil companies. PowerPoint isn't a big deal but Word and Excel (and Access and Project) are real problems. We receive and produce hundreds of documents a week using the Microsoft office suite and every day at least one produced by one version isn't readable in another version. Hell, I've used OpenOffice to get access to Word and Excel XP documents that Word or Excel 2000 couldn't open. I've done the same thing to cross-export Word97 docs to WordXP. And a lot of the time I use the open source PDFWriter to create a PDF from OOWrite so that everyone in the office can read it. As far as I'm concerned that's wasted time when I could be improving/expanding the IT infrastructure. Microsoft just doesn't play fair cricket and I'm tired of it. I just wish the IT chief (my boss) would get her head out of the sand.
- I'm not making calls to Red Hat; I don't need to. I think that's propaganda...What about the cost of dealing with a virus? We don't have 'em. How about when we do have a problem, you don't have to send some guy to a corner of the building to find out what's going on--he never leaves his desk, because everything's server-based. There's no doubt that what I'm doing is cheaper to operate. The analyst guys can say whatever they want.
Hurrah! Someone finally cut through all the bullshit, and basically said it straight. Take that you buzzword speaking analyst! Begone back to the hellish dimension that spawned you!Well, that's it for me then - I'm going to buy Ernie Ball strings from now on. Actually, all strings seem pretty much the same to me, what with massive distortion and high volumes, so why not support people who have er.. Balls? (sorry)
A disgruntled employee or contractor can easily rat your company out to BSA.
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
We are getting paid to improve free software developer tools, server software, productivity tools, and hardware support, so that is what we do.
If you want us to write accounting software, pay us to do so. It is not something we are going to do for fun.
For once, this story really is about *free* software, not *open source* software. The point here is not really about how much it costs, well it just happens to cost less, but it also shows that *freedom* matters to businesses just as much as they matter to bearded MIT gurus.
...the Deck is stacked in favor of BSA:
Did you want to settle?
Never, never. That's the difference between the way an employee and an owner thinks. They attacked my family's name and came into my community and made us look bad. There was never an instance of me wanting to give in. I would have loved to have fought it. But when (the BSA) went to Congress to get their powers, part of what they got is that I automatically have to pay their legal fees from day one. That's why nobody's ever challenged them--they can't afford it. My attorney said it was going to cost our side a quarter million dollars to fight them, and since you're paying their side, too, figure at least half a million. It's not worth it. You pay the fine and get on with your business. What most people do is get terrified and pay their license and continue to pay their licenses. And they do that no matter what the license program turns into.
Question is, even if you win, do you still have to pay the BSA lawyers?
Mod Karma -1: I sed bad wurds. If I cep my mouf shut, I wud be at riyses.
While it is true that some computers and users don't need internet access, i.e. critical process machines, cutting it off all together is bad for employee morale, especially when some have it and some don't. Additionally, with the workday as it is now, the employees' breaktime or lunch or sometimes even during regular hours may be the only opportunity they have to take care of personal business. And even beyond those aspects, it is actually good for employee productivity to have some diversion while at work.
If you are concerned about overuse, filter sites employees use or bytes transferred or access hours. There all sorts of ways to manage internet access without cutting it out all together.
The internet, like anything else, can be abused and overused while at work. Milly the office clerk can blow the whole day talking on the phone, regardless of whether or not you turn her internet on or off. The bottom line is that goofing off at work was occuring long before the internet was even a twinkle in some engineers eye (while daydreaming at his regular job no doubt). It's a fact of business life, and its well known.
Your post suggests that you are of the "employee is the enemy" managerial mindset. Its bad for the morale of your employees and also their productivity. If they are able to complete their assigned work in the time allotted, what is the problem?
"Please don't apply for a job where I work."
I don't think I will have a problem with that directive.
That's what you get for creating disgruntled employees...
Still, unless you have a prosecutor willing to prosecute a crime, (a *CRIME*, not a civil matter), and unless you have a magistrate willing to hear the case, there should never be a search warrant issued for anything!
I hear about "BSA" raids, but they are really government raids with the BSA acting as a witness for the prosecution. The prosecutor is never named in these articles. Neither is the judge who signed the order.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
So what did swearing off Microsoft entail? We looked at all the alternatives. We looked at Apple, but that's owned in part by Microsoft. (Editor's note: Microsoft invested $150 million in Apple in 1997.)
Somewhere, a man wearing a black turtleneck is going, "Doh!"
My biggest reservation about open and free software is that it's not obvious how I would make a living if the whole world switched. Programming is my most marketable skill* and has kept me employed for many years. I know Stallman says that we could make money supporting free software and filling in the holes, but I've always been skeptical of the demand. Ernie Ball seems to support my concern.
* My other career option is writing. That doesn't pay the bills, and, if we totally kill rather than fix copyright laws, it'll never pay.
Usally, what happens is somebody you fired gets pissed off and calls the BSA. You then lose several man-weeks of productivity bending over for the BSA auditors, whether you're guilty or not. I'm not sure what happens if you tell the BSA auditors to get the hell off your property -- do they come back with machine guns? They're a private corporation -- what right do they have to force you to do anything?
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney