OpenLindows.com: Wherefore Art Thou?

Joe Barr writes "I ran across a curious website recently: OpenLindows.com. The name alone intrigued me. It gave rise to speculation about a weird mix of free-as-in-beer and free-as-in-speech alternative to the $99/year Click-N-Run software subscription offered by LindowsOS, the most Windows-like/proprietary Linux distribution out there. This is a report on what I found, and perhaps even more importantly, what I didn't."

Comments

OpenLindows.com?

[dzym]

Surely the best thing to do with that domain is to redirect it to www.debian.org? Or maybe knoppix.org at a pinch.

Re:OpenLindows.com?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is informative? This should be -1, Troll.

Just because these guys choose not to run your idea of an uber-distribution does not mean that it's no good. These openlindows.com people should be commended for trying to bring the best of the linux community to the lindows buyers. Comments like: "UR dist SUXOR, debian RULEZ!!1!!|" are the worst thing about the linux community, and these kinds of comments should be viewed as what they are.

Re:OpenLindows.com?

[HiThere]

Actually, he has it almost right.

There's nothing stoping you from running apt-get on Lindows, except lack of knowledge. What you end up with is Lindows with some Debian packages installed. Not Debian.

Personally, I don't think that any distro that encourages people to run as root deserves to live, but that's the main fault of Lindows. And that was a conscious choice. They did include apt-get, so there's no problem with upgrading from Debian. So you can't either fault Lindows for crippling their distro, or fault /.ers for suggesting that they redirect their /etc/apt/sources.list to Debian. It's a reasonable approach.

FWIW: I currently use LibraNet Linux. Another distribution that's essentially Linux. And I have more Debian links in my apt sources than I do LibraNet. In fact, it installed itself that way. But I have the LibraNet sources listed first, which means that if there's a version on the LibraNet site, that's the one that gets picked.

Re:OpenLindows.com?

[The Almighty Dave]

Another distribution that's essentially Linux.

It's funny how many Linux distributions are essentially Linux.

sheesh

[Anonymous Coward]

"Wherefore" means "why," not "where." When Shakespeare wrote, "Wherefore art thou Romeo?" he was saying, "Why are you 'Romeo?'" As in, "Why did you have to be born the son of my father's enemy?"

Basic literacy, you know?

Re:sheesh

[Anonymous Coward]

"Why art though" is exactly what the article title is supposed to mean. We already know WHERE it is - it's at www.openlindows.com. Yeesh.

Re:sheesh

[NanoGator]

"Wherefore" means "why," not "where." When Shakespeare wrote, "Wherefore art thou Romeo?" he was saying, "Why are you 'Romeo?'" As in, "Why did you have to be born the son of my father's enemy?"

Well the article's been slashdotted, so all I have to go by is the submission itself. Given the author's comment about the site being OpenLindows, yet the OS is proprietary, I'd say his use of wherefore is bang on.

Couldn't take a moment to make sure your assumption wasn't ill based?

Re:sheesh

[kst]

It's a pity that people think the word 'where' means 'where' instead of 'why' these days.

Yes, 'where' means 'where', and 'why' means 'why'.

'Wherefore' is a different word. You can tell by the extra 4 letters at the end.

No, it's not commonly used these days; probably the vast majority of uses are quoting that line from "Romeo and Juliet". ("art" and "thou" aren't very common either, but people don't seem to have much trouble with them.)

If you're interested (or even if you're not), the word "wherefore" is closely related to "therefore", which is still in common use.

I'm not going to argue that anyone who doesn't know what "wherefore" means is illiterate, but don't you think knowing what is means is better than not knowing what it means?

Re:sheesh

[finkployd]

Actually it is used correctly in this case. We know where openlindows.com is (hint, the name is also a location. Or uniform resource locator as we say in the biz), the author is lamenting its ties to a proprietary software company. As in "the name openlindows.com has such potential, why were you born into the family of my enemy".

So one point for you for knowing the correct usage of wherefore, minus one point for not noticing that it was actually used correctly here.

You currently have zero points. Would you like to play again (y/n) ?

Finkployd

Re:sheesh

[fireman sam]

That word you use... you use it a lot... I do not think it means what you think it means.

Re:sheesh

[rleibman]

A big question of course, is why Shakespeare didn't instead say "Romeo, oh romeo, wherefore are though Montague?". Much clearer. I highly recommend this season's version of R&J at the Oregon Shakespeare Festival.

Re:sheesh

[rleibman]

Unfortunately I can't take take credit for it. Barry Kraft (OSF's dramaturg and a leading bard scholar) mentioned it on passing at a lecture I attended. R&J is not originally Shakespeare's, the story goes much further and even some of the text, so it is conceivable that one of those sources had something that made more sense.

Re:sheesh

[Voytek]

Yes, the vast majority of English speakers are illiterate. Is this news to you?

Re:sheesh

[mindriot]

Yes, and? The question is, "wherefore art thou?" -- in other words, "why are you?" -- which fits pretty well. Why does the site exist, practically? Wasn't that the point?

Btw, wherefore is probably related to the German "wofur" meaning "what for," as in "what's that for?" -- similar enough to "why does that exist?".

Hm. Why does /. replace the u-Umlaut in "wofur" with a regular 'u'? ..."wofuer," then. :)

Re:sheesh

[dasmegabyte]

There are two things that bother me about people's misconceptions of Romeo and Juliet. The first is the line "Wherefore art thou, Romeo," and I can deal with it, because it's still better than people who don't understand the concept of contractions of homonyms.

The second is that people still think it's a heartwarming love story. It's not. It's a tragedy about the destruction of two feuding houses -- two families, too old to produce any more children, who lose all their kin as a result of this pairing. Whether lovesick Romeo (who immediately forgets the girl he had previously pined for when he meets a new chick who is WAY too young for him) and dutiful Juliet are truly in love is up to the interpretter, though I'd have to say in true deconstructionist spirit that there's no way. But if it were really about their "love," the story would have ended with their deaths. It continues...not merely as denoument, but to deliver the message: foolish feuding only leads to tragedy.

It's an anti-mob play, same as Julius Caeser. There's nothing romantic in the second act at all, just a lot of foolish teenage sentiment and real adult grief. Therefore, a phrase like "we're starcrossed lovers, like Romeo and Juliet," has always seemed insultingly ironic to me. Except when Milhouse said it.

awesome

[Anonymous Coward]

i ran across a couple random sites as well... why didn't my submission get posted on those?

Re:awesome

[johndoesovich]

Found another that appears to be similar to openlindows..... http://www.lycoris.com/

My head hurts...

[JoeLinux]

Let's pull this apart, shall we?

This is:

A free software, providing an alternative for people who don't want to pay for an alternate Operating system utilizing free software meant to emulate a common interface on proprietary software.

Tell me, if you are tech-savvy enough to get this to work (Even as beta as it probably is), what are you doing wanting the lindows interface?

My $.02 ($.03 Canadian)

Wherefore != Where

[RimmerExperience]

The article points to the lack of an Open Lindows community (e.g. 'where is it'?). 'Wherefore' in Olde English...e, however, means 'why' or 'for what reason'.

Wherefore [realdictionary.com]

(Juliet laments "why are you Romeo", not "where are you Romeo?")

Re:Wherefore != Where

[LostCluster]

The thing is, lauguage evolves by errors that survive without being corrected. That is to say, if a misuse of the word gets used too much, dictionairies report that meaning has now been associated with the word, and adds it to the definition.

Re:Wherefore != Where

[Atzanteol]

Yeah, I mean what the flang was the gribbit talking about? Werds and their spellings/meanings can be changed anytime I tang well want to!

Re:Wherefore != Where

[rsidd]

To all those who argue for dictionaries incorporating wrong meanings because people use them thus, let me point out this very eloquent article.

For the language-impaired, "wherefore" has the same relationship to "therefore" as "where" has to "there". Let's keep things somewhat orderly here -- unless you argue that Juliet, spying Romeo, would say "Ah, therefore's Romeo!"

Re:Wherefore != Where

[bperkins]

Excellent point, however your explanation of a misconception has a possible misconception.

You say "Olde English," which if one takes to mean "Old English," would refer to the English spoken by the people in Britain before 1066.

Although the word wherefore may have had Old English origins (the OED indicates that it does not), Romeo and Juliet is Elizabethan English.

Article summary

[Fizzlewhiff]

Just so you don't have to read the whole article like I did...

There is a site called OpenLindows.org (or something like that) where Lindows users could download the same stuff Linux and BSD users can downlod. Only noone seems to know about it, or Lindows users don't care, or there aren't any Lindows users. Sorry to be so vague but I quit reading before any real conslusion was drawn because it didn't mention SCO or Kobe Bryant and I became bored.

Re:Article summary

[jared_hanson]

You're summary hit the nail on the head, and you didn't even read the entire thing!

I expect more stories like this in the future:

Joe Smith sets up a website. No one knows about it, but I happened to stumble across. I take that back, it looks like his grandma posted something here a couple of months back. He links to some weird site.

Man, how did this make Slashdot.

My impression

[insecuritiez]

Was that OpenLindows was a small group (one guy?), maybe one person that didn't like the idea of having to pay for click-n-run to get many free applications. Open Lindows isn't going to take off because there's allready a website for that. www.debian.org And the few Lindows users out there that want to stick with it most likely can compile the software and so don't need OpenLindows. Nice idea though.

For us Non-Lindows people

[Dareth]

What keeps a normal Lindows user from editing their /etc/apt/sources.list and apt-get installing away?

Is there some kind of design limitation in Lindows, obscure config file layout to keep these people clickin and paying?

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[Anonymous Coward]

No, you can plaw right ahead. That's what a lot of the thrashing in the forums is about -- windows people trying to understand how to do exactly what you just described.

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[Craig Nagy]

RTFC C=Comments

We don't try to hide the fact that sites like this is exist in order to gain more revenue from CNR. If we wanted to do that, we'd simply make it impossible to use APT, and we don't - Apt is fully functional in LindowsOS and for those more technically inclined, they are more than welcome to use it instead of CNR if it meets their needs.

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[LostCluster]

Smart biz move, because here were their options:

A: Sack APT, and get a backlash from opensource land.

B: Allow APT to exist, but don't give it any easier interface than what it comes with standard. Those geeky enough to understand it may have it, but those same people are likely too geeky to want to buy Lindows anyway.

Lindows' product is a closed source program that makes Linux a bit easier to use, frosted with a distribution of the open source programs it attempts to help you with. If you know enough to work around Lindows anyway... then what are you doing with Lindows in the first place?

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[Gherald]

> If you know enough to work around Lindows anyway... then what are you doing with Lindows in the first place?

Complaining about its geeklessness, what else?

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[elgaard]

Normal Lindows users don't apt-get. CNR is simper to use than synaptic, kpackage, dselect, apt-get etc.

Technically the answer is versions and dependencies. I experienced Lindows 3 preinstalled on the laptop (http://www.agol.dk/elgaard/lindows.html). The Lindows specific programs were all cleanly installed as Debian packages, which make upgrading with apt safe and simpler. However the installed packages were an interesting mix of Debian/KDE/OO versions. Many programs were backported. I was not able to come up with a sources.list that matched what was installed and what I wanted to install. This means you get a lot of conflicts. You can resolve those, but then you end up updating _a lot_ of packages, and loosing most of the extra Lindows packages. It still works, but there really isn't much point in doing it compared to installing a fresh Debian, unless you have a preinstalled Lindows computer without floppy or CD drive.

OpenLindows packages on the other hand matches the installed Lindows packages. I started trying out OpenLindows. I downloaded OO from Openlindows, put it on a CF card, met my girlfriend with the Lindows laptop on the way to a meeting, put the CF card in the laptop (it has a CF slot), apt-get install openoffice, and it was working.

The laptop now runs debian unstable (except for Netscape), but that is just because I could do it. I liked a lot of things in Lindows (not the root thing) and $49/year (per family i think) could be worth it as long as you are not locked in---You have a way out (apt-get) if you decide it is no longer worth it.

Community

[vosbert]

Interesting how the author mentions community. Does a great software program really need a community? Can't there just be a great product without community? I assume good software will automatically attract a community, but perhaps this is not the case anymore. Maybe it is just as important to produce a great product as it is to promote it.

This is different from sourceforge?

[stratjakt]

Set up webpage

Wait for developers to create product for you

this is what the lindows.com community liason said

[atari2600]

From the article


The skinny
by LindowsBrian on 2003.08.27 15:07 (#67071)
User #183638 Info

I just contacted Joe about an hour ago and explained to him our take on this article and with Linux news in general. He was nice enough to send a very prompt reply requesting that I post here, so here goes nothing.

First of all, this article isn't FUD, as a couple of our "hardcores" seem to be claiming. I apologize for that, but I love their spunk. ;-)

I'm actually very glad to have seen this article written as Peter, the owner of LindowsDownload.com and OpenLindows.com has been very, very helpful to us in the past and has created a great site that deserves recognition.

To keep this fairly short and as interesting as possible, I'll just sum up some things real quick instead of waxing philisophical.

First off, a minor correction to the article.

1.) Lindows Plus (CNR Memberhsip) is $49.95, not $99, although it once was. Then it included commercial software as well. LindowsOS and Lindows Plus together are only $89 now.

And to respond to a few comments here:

We don't charge for the free software - We charge for the delivery service. For any Linux company to have a shot at making money, you almost have to go the services route. We also offer deep discounts on Commercial software that you can't legally obtain for free-as-in-beer.

We Do give back to the community. Our largest contribution came in the way of Wine. We contributed code as well as nearly half a million dollars. For more info:

http://www.lindows.com/contributions

Getting back to the article, we are not in any way affiliated with LindowsDownload.com, LindowsUser.com, LindowsClub.com, or OpenLindows.com, but I do have what I consider to be a good relationship with the owner.

We don't try to hide the fact that sites like this is exist in order to gain more revenue from CNR. If we wanted to do that, we'd simply make it impossible to use APT, and we don't - Apt is fully functional in LindowsOS and for those more technically inclined, they are more than welcome to use it instead of CNR if it meets their needs.

Most users of other Linux Distros have different needs and different mindsets than our users. Our users want to be able to install software at an affordable price with one-click of the mouse. They don't care if it's GPLed Software, BSD-Style software, commercial software... They simply don't care. So yes, we do market differently than most Linux companies because we are different than most Linux companies - We're going after the desktop space the MS currently owns.

I'm sure we've done some things along the way that aren't in line with most Linux companies and have upset alot of you, but I assure you we do care about the community, we give back to the community, and are currently working with some members of the Debian Community personally.

Brian Thomason
Lindows.com Community Liaison

P.S. Feel free to email be at brian.thomason@lindows.com or shoot me an IM on AIM at LindowsBrian

I hate to point out the obvious..

[Anonymous Coward]

But I think the poor chap who wrote this article found openlindows just a little too early.. Its nice of him to publicise them though, its a bit of a baptism of fire unleashing slashdot upon them so early :)

The name suggests a free version of lindows - functioning similarly. Cute but I feel sorry for the Lindows guys myself - mainly because I think they have the right idea charging for linux (to the masses, not those of us who know this type of thing) - if you know anything about marketing you will know that selling a product for free or dirt cheap price does not really equate to "trust" (and more sales) from the customers. Linux undoubtedly is currently "too good to be true" to many people who might consider the change from MS products.

Re:My experience with OpenLindows

[Anonymous Coward]

You, sir, have a beautiful mind.

Re:lindows... I still don't get it

[ccwaterz]

I'm reminded of a Fox Trot comic from a few weeks back.

free and alternative

[zerolives]

Hey! I have a free, alternative, open-source way to simulate all of the stuff in that article: smash you head in with a hammer, and then pour lemon juice on it.

Re:lindows... I still don't get it

[thinkninja]

I understand Lindows better than OpenLindows. The WalMart bargin basement box has an interface that the average computer user (the much maligned Joe Sixpack) is familiar with. To them Windows == Computers (yes, I know this is a Bad Thing).

OpenLindows, however, seems to require as much effort as installing any other Linux distribution.

So what niche does it cater for, exactly?

The Lindows market.

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems to me the Lindows market is made up of non-expert users who either sick of Microsoft's inadequacies or saw a cheap PC in Walmart.
Such a user is unlikely to discover apt, so sites like OpenLindows are somewhat redundant.
This does not mean I disapprove of their existence - it's nice for someone with the know-how to have the option and it's an indicator of Lindows' good faith that they keep that option open.
Myself, I wouldn't pay to download open source packages (other than donations) so, again, if you got yourself a Lindows box the option is there.

--
fuzzix posting anon. because of dodgy karma issues :/

Even more astonishing...

[jared_hanson]

I was roaming Sourceforge, and came across a curious project: Open IP PBX. It gave rise to this suspicion that I might be able to tie my two phone lines into one system. Here is a report on what I found, and more importantly, what I didn't:

I went to the website, and it was completely empty. It was your standard "index of" apache generated directory listing, with no files. Using my extensive knowledge of sourceforge, I found their project page. It looks like their is not much there, in fact, they have not even released any files. There is some stuff in CVS though. I conclude that probably not many people know about this project, or they simply aren't interested.

The parent is right

[Overly Critical Guy]

"Wherefore art thou" is the most incorrectly used phrase I've ever heard.

clarifications

[pistooli]

:-) openlindows.com is just a hobby where is can put my own applications... lindowsdownload.com is just a small place where you can get binaries for lindows os. nothing less, nothing more... cheers - pistooli ( a long time GNU/Linux and debian user )

Where do they get the titles anyway?

[Frank O. File]

Whence did the title of this story come? I pity whomever tries to use rarely-used inquisitives in English. "Wherefore" essentially means "why" (it's actually more like "for what reason" but that's roughly "why"). Hence when Juliet asked "Wherefore art thou Romeo?" she asked (in modern parlance) "Why are you Romeo?" She was upset that he had to be born of the sworn enemies of her family. She was *not* asking where Romeo was at that moment. So the question is, what did the poster mean by "Openlindows.com: Wherefore art thou? Either he's really smart and means by this to ask why such a thing exists ("why are you" ~ "why do you exist") or he doesn't know what "wherefore" means and just wants a catchy title. I bet it's the latter. So the question is, wherefore exists such an editor as to use this title? By the way, openlindows sounds like a really good idea to me - it allows an easy way for lindows users (presumably less knowledgeable about software than most linux or unix users) to get acquainted with the idea of open source software and development. Sure, most of the users won't be developing themselves, but that's true for linux anyway.

Consistancy in Modding....

[2toise]

sheesh (Score:1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27, @05:34PM (#6808573) "Wherefore" means "why," not "where." When Shakespeare wrote, "Wherefore art thou Romeo?" he was saying, "Why are you 'Romeo?'" As in, "Why did you have to be born the son of my father's enemy?" Basic literacy, you know? Score:1, Offtopic, whereas: Wherefore != Where (Score:5, Informative) by RimmerExperience (456643) on Wednesday August 27, @05:38PM (#6808603) The article points to the lack of an Open Lindows community (e.g. 'where is it'?). 'Wherefore' in Olde English...e, however, means 'why' or 'for what reason'. Wherefore [realdictionary.com] [realdictionary.com] (Juliet laments "why are you Romeo", not "where are you Romeo?") Gets +5 Informative. Interesting...

Maybe no one uses Lindows???

[rindeee]

After all, every machine I've seen my peers purchase from WalMart.com or Tiger gets reformatted and Windows 98 installed on it from the old CD they have lying around. For $199 it's tough to bit...and Lindows blows.

I have purchased a few of them, installed SuSE 8.2 and made Hylafax servers out of them. Blah.

ER

First change I would make....

[gilesjuk]

Make Lindows run as something other than root, ludicrous to run as root with Linux.

I think this site is just a way of cutting their development costs.

Re:Two words

[finkployd]

vi /etc/apt/sources.list


It saddens me to think that I too consider those to be two actual words.

(one point for me for correctly using to, too, and two in one sentance)

Finkployd

Why is Linux so anti-Lindows?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm being serious here. The Linux community seems to think that mastery of the desktop is an automatic thing. Distros like Lindows, Xandros, Lycoris - these are all frowned upon for mimicing Windows. Why? Sure, in the last few years, Linux has become more of what it should be, but there is a large, untapped source of people that would be willing to use it on the desktop, but are put off by the inherent dislike Linux users seem to have for Windows users. Don't you want them to switch? Well, to tell you the truth, you seem intent on damaging your own future, like using Linux is the only way, and anyone else is stupid.

Windows sucks. I wish I could get off of it, but I still use it on a daily basis simply because it's what I know. I've been on MS since DOS 3.3, why is it a surprise that I, just like 90% of computer users out there - am just not comfortable with a community that assumes too much?

Linux is great, Windows sucks, tell me something I don't know, like why one distro likes my sound card and another doesn't without tweaking. Why I can print on yet another distro, but the first two can't even see my server.

Linux has a long way to go, just like Windows does. The difference is a basic usability in Windows that is intuitive for those of us that *only know* Windows. Sure, mom can use Linux (except for her bible stuff and her preferred Mah Jong app). Sure, if I wasn't taking care of two kids, I would probably have the time to learn Linux, but right now, I - and many many others - want to make the switch but get very little help from YOU. You even attack your own "approved" list of Distros. Mandrake lovers bitch about RH. Debian lovers hate them both. Where is the love?

Re:Why is Linux so anti-Lindows?

[biggj]

You have a really good point. I was there for a long time. I started with DOS, then Windows 3.1, made the jump to apple for a few years and then came back to Windows when W2K came out. For the last year or two I have installed and reinstalled various different version of RH and Mandrake, along with attempting to install PPCLinux (a RH distro). Each time I would be okay for a few days, and then I would find some major thing I couldn't do that I needed to... and back to Windows I went.

When RH 9 came out, I was really hesitant to try it as my main desktop, so installed it on my extra machine (I have two at work). There I messed with it for a while, making sure that I could do everything I wanted. There are tons of GUI tools built into both KDE and GNOME. Along with ton's of help groups.google.com. After a few weeks, I decided I was ready for the switch.

I have been using RH9 with Ximian (mod of GNOME) as my desktop (which you have to install separately). I have KDE installed so that I can use some of there apps for burning and media and such. I have Crossover Office installed to run Excel and Word. I will admit I am on my second install, don't know why, but the first one got hosed (I think it had something to do with recompiling glibc). But since the second install, I have been fine. There isn't anything I can't do that I could on Windows. It a bit faster, and I had no trouble with the worms that were floating around.

A couple things I can say are:

1) installing with a flat Workstation/Server/etc. install doesn't typically give you ever thing you need.

2) the groups are you friend. Every question you can think of has been asked.

While Redhat may not be the best distro (I personally couldn't say), there are a ton of people using it, therefore there is tons of support for it.

That's my 2 cents ... (** flame away **)

Wherefore?

[AJWM]

Therefore!

Re:Wherefore?

[jvj24601]

> Therefore!

There castle!

Trademarks

[blang]

The public relations strategy of LindowsOS seems to be to play to the general/Windows trade press and to ignore the Linux press. Given that their target audience is found among Windows users rather than those already using Linux, that may be not a bad plan. So maybe my query to Schwarzman went unanswered because of that reticence. Or maybe they just didn't want to say anything that might give OpenLindows more ink. That would make sense too.

I would imagine the silence might be more of a legal nature. I imagine lindows have trademarked lindows, so their PR guy might not have a statement untill their lawyers have figured out how to deal with openLindows.

Lindows does not run as root anymore

[David Jao]

Make Lindows run as something other than root, ludicrous to run as root with Linux.

Let's please put this myth to rest. This is the third time this month that I have posted to correct this misimpression.

Lindows used to run everything as root, but current versions of Lindows don't run everything as root anymore. You have the option to add regular users during installation, and the installation encourages you to do so.

Just like in redhat.

Just like in debian.

I'm not advocating Lindows by any means (I don't even like their product), but I do think it is important to get the facts correct.

I also like the fact that...

[Anonymous Coward]

there is a nice copyright at the bottom of the page, and the ENTIRE site is ripped straight from oscommerce.com

hmm WAY TO GO...