Slashdot Mirror
Security Versus Science
dogfrt writes "According to this Wired News article, post-9/11 homeland security has had a decidedly negative effect on US scientific research. In specific, researchers are self-censoring what they publish, talented foreign students are being denied visas (approximately 20%, according to one source in the article), and researchers are avoiding work with dangerous pathogens, choosing more innocuous micro-organisms."
Sad, esp. considering how artifical such security is anyway. Frankly, with Ashcroft and Ridge at the helm, I trust the DHS less than what they ostensibly fight against... That aside, if we refuse to allow talented people into our country, what's that do but force them to work for our competitors and perhaps even enemies? Lovely bit of intel there. Oh, well. No one ever accused the Bush administration of having a collective brain cell.
#define DRM chmod 000
Scientists arent being forced to make these decisions, they are making a conscious effort to do so. This is a different world we live in now and as such, requires different ways of thinking and innovating. Just because some researchers are afraid of doing certain things doesnt mean that others wont.
This is something I've beleived for a long time. Security through obscurity (i.e. preventing reserach in areas that may be dangerous), just does not work.
This sounds like a society in decline :-( The one that put human beings on the Moon, the one that saved us from Adolf Hitler and the one that kept the USSR in check. Its democracy is broken.
Enough said.
One could argue that the real risk, at least where pathogens are concerned, isn't so much the scientists using them for terrorist activities, but someone else getting ahold of them who would. No matter what the research is for, the scientists in this modern climate need to maintain an elevated security when dealing with possible/probable bioweapons.
so what we don't inform the world anytime there is a scientific break through? maybe when the larger war is over, and every single peace hating foreign exchange student and every single surface to air missle toting nuclear-physics gurru is dead, then we can start posting all of our classified info on the web!!
Like beer, titties and professional wrestling?
In our greed soaked quest for the allmighty dollar we have outsourced so much of our tech savy to "cheaper" sources that we now depend on others for our critical infrastructure. If too many other countries were to gang up on us all at once and refuse to sell US things they found "dangerous" we'd be finished. We depend on so many countries to supply tech for us, and this is what has made our security dubious. Any one remember the old days when the us could make everything for its safety?
"A towel is the most astounding Mind-boggleing useful thing in the universe, allways know where your towel is"
researchers are avoiding work with dangerous pathogens, choosing more innocuous micro-organisms."
And have you ever considered that the most dangerous kind of research is not the manipulation of known dangerous organisms (and the associated containment precautions), but of supposedly "innocuous" or "harmless" organisms, organisms where there is no need for increased security or containment protocols?
Feed the need: Digitaladdiction.net
Mecca? How about Bradford?
Why do they feel terrorists could use their work? So far they have been using such advanced technology as trucks loaded with manure, a box-cutter and some homemade explosives.
Overall they're doing the right thing, but I can't help but feel they're doing it for the wrong reason.
1) the quoted article said 20% of students in physics were having trouble entering the US--that is a long ways from saying they didn't enter all all.
2) There is a real question of if the open borders policy has really helped US science in a meaningful way from the 20's-50's the US had a fairly strict immigration policy and quite a bit of science happened in the US. Right now the US has a serious problem of underutilizatin of native US technical/scientific talent.
notext
here
I don't read your sig, why do you read mine?
I lived in the US on an H1B visa before 9/11. I first got it in 10 months, which is considered fast normally. When I applied for a renewal after 9/11, it was denied, although the first renewal was granted to me without problem and reasonably fast, and I never had so much as a speeding ticket in the US. I thought, well, the US of A doesn't want me no more, so I went back to the EC.
...
Now friends who have applied recently told me it's a matter of 2 or 3 years, and that quotas have gone down drastically (read: they can't get one).
I've started my company in France. So are my friends. We're all experiencing huge pains in the rectal area because the taxman in France is voracious, but we have to stay here (or perhaps go to Canada later, but right now we're staying here) because it seems Uncle Sam can do without enterprising people willing to go to great length and make sacrifices to try to succeed, and eventually pay taxes to the IRS.
I think the INS is right : there should be a barrier to entry in the US that's high enough to winnow out slackers and let worthy people in only. But when the barrier is too high, Uncle Sam deprives itself of workers who already have an education that didn't cost a cent to the country, are provably willing to work hard to make it, and willing to play the US economy game and pay their taxes. If I was a decision maker, I'd welcome such a population in the country.
Too bad your current administration doesn't see farther than its nose-tip
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
Let's consider the options for a bright enterprising US graduate holding a bachelor's degree and considering further education. (I'm talking about our best and brightest here.) That student could go to top law school, medical school or business school and expect a six-figure salary after graduation. On the other hand, that student could go to a top school for a graduate degree in science. The result is 6 years of poverty as a grad student followed by a two or three year postdoctoral stint making $35K. Why would a newly minted Ph.D. from a place like Berkeley, Stanford, Princeton, MIT, or CalTech accept that kind of money when they are often expected to live and work in an expensive urban environment? Maybe it's because of the hordes of cheap labor from places like the PRC?
Perhaps a reduction in foreign labor will lead to enhanced salaries for scientists. One might hope that a decrease in supply would shift the salaries up. Unfortunately, since federal funding plays such an important role in domestic scientific output, salaries won't rise significantly unless congress increases funding. Contrary to popular opinion, the government is run by a bunch of cheap bastards, so it could be a while before that happens. If current trends continue, there will be a crunch in US scientific production unless funding increases to recruit domestic talent or the security hawks back down.
The postdoc is the nigger of the scientific world.
The good news is that the amount of research going into creating friendly, fluffy bunnies is skyrocketing!
Expect a new species of ultra-adorable housepets in the near future.
Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
I recently started working as a physics Ph. D. student in Innsbruck, Austria. In our group we have a Taiwanese post-doc who is really talented and does a tremendous job, working 12 hours a day, six days a week.
This guy used to be at Stanford, but when he wanted to get his visa renewed he was told he had to go back to Taiwan and renew it there. So he went to Taiwan, where he was told that he could not get a new visa. There he was in Taiwan, with all his stuff left in California, unable to go back! After some time he managed to get a temporary visa so he could at least go back for 14 days, sell his car and take care of his belongings. Then he went working with us in Austria instead.
Good for us, bad for USA.
I wanted to read the article but it was Slashdotted, why is this -1 troll???
I don't think these restrictions are too harsh. It only affects a small number of workers in a very specific area (biotech). Regardless, there are many ways (such as visualisation techniques and computer predictions) around the need for substances such as the plague.
It seems to me that if we really want to protect ourselves from chemichal and bio terrorisim, what we need are a lot of researchers who are experts in that area, and a lot of R&D so as to learn how to cope, plan, and respond to disasters. Thanks to my government, just the opposite is happening. So who'se the real threat to national security?
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
----
"Ours was a free culture. It is becoming much less so."-Lawrence Lessig
why shouldn't flag burning be praised? Cause its bad right?
Dad?
please put some pants on and come home.
-little sally.
The real enemy is not the Department of Homeland Security but the terrorists who have forced us to take these drastic measures.
Because we all know about how hi-tech science such as box-cutters were used in the 9/11 attacks. Not to mention that only foreigners are terrorists.
I don't normally insult people, but you, AC, are dumb.
what do you care if your research, funded by the American tax-payer, only gets read by the people with a proper security clearance?
Well it's Game Over then, isn't it? Science didn't evolve this way and it certainly won't prosper under such a regime. So don't complain when it can't save your arse (like via new medicical discoveries), because you decided in your wisdom to suppress the spread of scientific knowledge. You bigot.
I don't know if the word is really "forced". Although they've certainly forced the US to re-think a lot of what they do.
However, if we (the western world, but especially the States) allow a few uber-fundementalist Islamists whithout even mainstream support by their religion to dictate what can and will be researched, they get that much closer to their goal. Tough call, risk stagnation or distaster?
Actually, the article says that 20% of accepted foreign students in physics "...had problems entering the country last year". It doesn't say they've been denied visas. It also doesn't say what constitutes "problems", and what percent normally had trouble before 9/11. They all may have made it in, just with some troubles.
talented foreign students are being denied visas (approximately 20%, according to one source in the article)
GOOD!
Why is it that the US gets flogged for denying someone a VISA, when other countries do it all the time and is considered "common place"?
Yes, I'm a "Yank" (I live about an hour west of Philly), but I just flat-out don't understand why it's a big deal when the US of A does it, but it's OK for anyone else.
Can someone please enlighten me?
I'm not a prophet or a stone-age man,
I'm just a mortal with potential of a super man.
While I don't work with anything as sexy as pathogens, I am trying to get my grad-level thesis on computer security done. Practically any field of research I want to choose potentially opens me up to criminal prosecution.
As an example:
My university wanted me to do research on LDAP and its related security problems. They wanted me to do this at first on a strawman system, then on the actual system in use on the campus. I objected to this line of research because if I were "caught" probing or attacking the system and the person who discovered me jumped the appropriate chain of command and called the authorities, I would be up shit creek without a paddle.
I also brought up the problem on who owns (or has ultimate authority over) the campus network. It is operated by the university, but owned by the state and to some extent, the feds. What if the university gave me permission but the state or federal authorities decided they didn't like my work? What then?
My professors told me I could do the thesis and "bury" my work. That is, copies would be made for myself, my committee, and a copy in the library under the "restricted section". But if I do so, what's the use?
I tried every decent and legal way I could think of to resolve the issue w/the business before I rented the chicken suit
The best analogy would probably be if American universities suddenly declared that transcripts for new graduates were going to be classified and you couldn't talk about them to the general public. Good luck going to your potential employers upon graduation and telling them, "Yeah, sure, I took some classes, but I can't tell you which ones or how well I did in them either. (But hire me anyways, please!)"
The bold print giveth, and the fine print taketh away
Bush cancelling funds to arrest Osama Bin Laden? Bush said we had to give up our freedom because of 9/11? Where did see say these things? It would be perfect to suit the haters.
Typical Slashdot: make up facts and quotes to suit your agenda, and get modded up for it.
SIG:Slashdot: indymedia for nerds.
I fear that we are forgetting what we are doing. I read and listen to both sides argue continuously, and never do I hear a good fix, just what is wrong.
It has come to my attention that no one is at fault but us. We take for granted what we see as "our rights", and only when something changes our view, do we jump up.
Being an independent, I look to both side of the political scene and see faults in both. Neither side is always right or wrong. For example, something I heard this morning... Democrats are ranting and raving about the Patriot bill taking away the rights of people. This is far from the truth. It just gives the ability to find "problems" before they happen. A point that was brought up was an analogy of "The Boy who cried Wolf". Where the democrats are always the first to jump on the soapbox and scream and holler about something that really is not worth crying about. Problem is that it is too much like crying wolf... Eventually they will get something right and no one will listen.
People complain that the men in Guantanimo Bay have been given no rights. Well, no duh. What is so wrong with locking up foreign nationals and not providing any of the rights that Americans get, when they have no claim to America? I see no problem with that...
Sure we have had to adapt to a New World, but do not ever forget that this is so that you can enjoy your freedom. Without this protection, we would not be here today. Although you might think that your rights are being infringed, look at the constitution and read it. Then see what you can do and cannot do before you start preaching about rights.
These scientists are making a choice to hold back their own research and that really has nothing to do with what the government imposes on them. If they can't look to foreign students, they find them in the US. Why is that so scary? Are the US students less able to work? Honestly, this should be a good thing. The US needs to rebuild it own strength internally, not with the support of external factions.
Look at it this way... If the Research Scientists are forced into using only American students, then maybe there are jobs for the students that they have a chance of keeping. So instead of costing us the unemployment or welfare they would receive, they add back into the economy... And if the Students really want to come to the US and do research, then get a legal visa and move here.
Do you seriously think that any of this research really would make a difference to a terrorist or not?
How much high tech did it take to fly two planes into two buildings? The planes, that's it. And it's not like they even built the planes themselves.
Security by obscurity is not the way to go. Anybody who has any experience in real life with security (be it physical security, or more abstract as in network security) knows that security by obscurity is nothing more than a pillow to sleep on for those who are trying to protect themselves.
And when that "security" measure is hindering science.. I don't think I have to spell it out for you.
How small a thought it takes to fill a whole life
currently, i'm employed at a major research institution as a postdoctoral researcher. One of our research projects currently is examining the factors influencing the transport of microorganisms in porous media (i.e., what happens to the bugs as they go into the groundwater).
One of the bugs we're looking at is Cryptosporidium parvum, a nasty parasite that was responsible for an outbreak in Milwaukee in 1993 that sickened something like 400,000 people and killed at least 100.
Interesting facts about crypto: It can be purchased over the phone with a credit card. With no previous clearance or paperwork or anything (at least as far as we can tell) to ensure that it is going to someone who won't misuse it. And it comes fully viable and capable of infecting individuals (as we accidently discovered a couple months back).
back of envelope calculations say that if we were to find a 1 million gallon reservoir, and dumped our sample in, (and somehow could mix it real well) there'd be near 1,000 particles per gallon. Given that it takes 1-10 to cause an infection, that's enough to infect the entire town i live in.
amazing. and all it takes is a credit card...
Cooperation within international law is what is needed. The US is forced to take some of these measures because they have to fit people based on minimal information into 2 groups "current or potential terrorist" or "non-threatening". The whole system breaks down when it comes to a judgement call and that can be a very human mistake. Say someone comes to your door and says they think they are going to have a heart attack, you make a judgment as to whether you think he or she is telling the truth and then you act. Do you let this person in your house? You know nothing about them. You get a bad feeling but this person may be at death's door. What do you do? If you are a woman, you may wonder if this person might be a rapist. But that doesn't mean you hate all men.
From what I can tell the US isn't always able to get the information it needs from international sources. The head of Interpol was on "News Hour" a few months ago and he agreed that the system doesn't work because the right information is not available at the moment it is needed. Interpol can't always get the information it needs from the FBI and vice versa because of a lack of protocols for just-in-time transferring of information.
Yeah, we don't have any home-grown terrorists like McVeigh...
#define DRM chmod 000
So how does it feel to be beaten like a drum by someone you think is intellectually inferior?
If anyone has had any difficulties in getting visas or has had new security issues impacting on their research, please get in touch at pguinnessy@yahoo.com. I'm conducting research in this area for a story I'm working on, and any or all information would be extremely useful. Discretion can be used for those scientists/students worried about their current status.
My hope is that the situation will improve with the next presidential elections. I can't believe that Americans will not defend their freedom.
You of all people know this?!?! One must ask, "How?"
Ashcroft tried to remove the meaning of your life.
WTF does this mean? It's pure ad hominem bullshit.
Science should not be constrained by security.
Utterly ridiculous. So we should disseminate all data? No matter what it could be used for? One wonders your position on gun control - to be consistent you'd have to support complete unfettered access to firearms. Somehow I doubt that.
Those recently unemployed don't see that side of the coin. It takes people willing to take risks to create employment - not just "get a job". If the USA was destination one for those people, it will hurt in the long run as those people will create their ventures elsewhere.
Of course.. then we cry about the jobs going to India, now, don't we?
Canada has a relatively open immigration policy and free trade via NAFTA with the USA. I recommend you try here. Last time I checked, educated, ambitious people were still welcome here.
..don't panic
Those are reasons in support of a policy: the invasion and occupation of Iraq. The policy of the Bush administration has not changed - and all your enumerated reasons are not exclusive - they can all be true at the same time.
The "policy changes" are coming from those like John Kerry, who voted for the invasion and now condemn it. At least Dean's been consistent the whole time. Him and Al Sharpton.
I have to say, I find this whole attitude to be disturbing. Isn't it one of the cherished freedoms of the U.S. to allow people to express how they feel about their government? Historically, hasn't deep suspicion towards government been praised?
But it seems like these days, U.S. citizens who speak out against their government's actions are automatically "traitors", and "liberal" is now synonymous with the worst insult possible. It doesn't matter if these people deeply love their country, they are still committing "treason". Goosestepping patriotism seems to be the only Allowable Thoughtpattern.
How did this happen? It's like the 1950s, Part II.
Would the innocents Clinton murdered in the Sudan agree with your assessment?
How about the publishers of the 100+ new newspapers of all political colours now appearing in Iraq?
I have just discovered that by using just a few common household chemicals you can obliterate the entire planet! All you need to do is...aggggggggghhhhhhh!
"People are stupid. Politicians most of all."
Not to go too far offtopic, but this is exactly why we need a better educational system. When you have a country that can't think intelligently, then you get officials elected unintelligently. This is obvious by the fact that elections can be (and are) won and lost by WORDS.
Just think for a second if everyone in this country had a better intelligence than they seem to show (ie. Darl McBride). You'd think by now that our country would have found a system to make elections more fair than a voting system based on speeches and presentations. Or corporations with decision-makers that have equal or higher intelligence than the employees under them. Or workers who won't let machines take over their jobs (and hence freeing up creative thinking, aka: innovation) because they think they cannot acquire more skills to make themselves more "contributive?" to society. Or a society that allows churches (ie. Scientology) to censor free speech because it goes against their beliefs. Moreover, we censor RESEARCH, the building block of what makes this world innovative, because some people think that this will save us from destruction. If they cannot see the bad logic in all of these actions, then I guess this country is destined to destroy itself. If we put a lot more funding and research into primary/secondary education, I think that a lot of things could change. of course, it would be naive to predict what exactly would change, but at least the country wouldn't be making these OVBIOUSLY illogical and irrational decisions that everyone seems to complain about. I mean, it doesn't take a history major to tell you that censorship has never and will never work.
For those of you who haven't read Jerry Pournelle's books, they talk about a future where the hypothetical world powers work to suppress Scientific research in order to preserve "Peace & Stability".
Of course amatuer historians can also point the Constantine Roman Empire and see similar trends.
Unfortunately unlike Pournelle's books, we haven't managed inter-stellar travel before the suppression began, there by haven't manage plant the seeds of future civilizations else where, and unlike the time's of Christian Rome, we don't have the seed's planted by a previous empire and barbarian hordes to force us out of stagnation.
my old sig is obsolete, and I haven't come up with a stupid enough new one yet
I think the event at 9/11 might be among the most negative events that have affected USA and probably far beyond what Osama bin Laden and his company had hoped for. I'm not sure he succeeded in the main goal with the act since the purpose of terrorism is almost always to create respect through fear. However, what they managed to do during the few seconds of the act, is to create enormous effects on the american society that is also reaching to other parts of the world. That terrorist act must have been one of the shortest, yet most affecting, event in recent history. When I think about it, only the nuclear bombs (released by USA ironically enough) in Hiroshima and Nagasaki to put an effective end to WW2 (in an arguably good way...) comes into mind. These were similar split-second events that changed the way how we think.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
It's like the 1950s, Part II.
s/communist/terrorist/gCurrent Karma Status: Roadkill
>Yes. I know what they want. I know what >motivates them. Envy of economic status that >transforms to hatred.
Osama Bin Laden comes from a family that has incredible amount of wealth. All of the 9/11 hijackers were in the Middle class. If the Islamic radicals were driven by economic status they would attack their own corrupt governments rather than attacking us. Your acting as if the Middle East wasn't the richest source of oil in the world.
Brian Ellenberger
To many people, it's all been a big success. To a select few, 9/11 was the best thing that's happened in years. Before it, they were worried about getting beat up over a collapsing economy, corruption, and election fraud. Now they're flying high, and all their friends are getting enormous no-bid military procurement and reconstruction contracts. Academic soreheads are easy to ignore.
bang!
that's gotta hurt.
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
The technological innovation that has allowed America to remain ahead is rapidly degrading. It's ironic to me that this mindset is the same one that allows other countries to close the gap further.
:)
As others develop space programs (China) and the modern weapons of warfare continue to proliferate, it seems we should be doing everything we can to maintain a technological edge. If we are all on the same playing field, shit will change dramatically.
It certainly does seem like a society in decline. But with rampant corporate ownership of government, can we expect anything less?
If you didn't know. The super vast majority of those accused of being communists by McCarthy were.
People who oppose the interests of the United States and its ability to protect itself are traitors.
If the US government is too unbearable, then go to a nation that more suits your taste.
To start, consider the first quote.
These particular foreign students are identified with a group of immigrants who are relatively wealthy (compared to their peers overseas), relatively well educated (compared to their peers overseas), and extremely opposed to assimilating into Western culture. If they do not come to the United States of America (USA), their absence is no loss for the USA. It is better off without them. (reference: "Immigrants: Traitors Among Us")
One characteristic of these foreign students is their strong pride in their own capabilities. They believe that the American hi-tech industry -- indeed, the entire American economy -- would grind to a halt if the American government did not allow them to come en masse into the USA. Their attitude and behavior have brainwashed respected professors (at, for example, John Hopkins University) into believing the same rubbish.
The USA will work fine without these foreign students. If there is a demand for new technologies, then the capitalistic economy of the USA will produce those technologies without those foreign students. "It" really is that simple. Salaries will rise, and the high salaries will attract more people into science and engineering.
One distinction between the West and the non-Western countries like China is the following. In the West, people discover the truth. In non-Western countries, people manufacture the truth (via deception). The foreign students want Americans to believe that the USA needs the immigrants much more than the immigrants need the USA. The foreign students deliberately manufacture this lie, and it has become an accepted "truth" among academicians. Yet, what is the truth? The truth is that foreign students desperately want to escape the ignorant, barbaric overseas societies in which they were born. They all want to flee to the West -- usually, the USA. In order to guarantee that the USA will always accept them, they trick Americans into believing that the USA actually needs them. Baloney.
Americans owe nothing to foreign students and certainly do not depend on them. Americans simply, out of their own generosity and compassion, allow foreign students to enter the USA to study to improve themselves. Of course, Americans allow immigrants to enter the USA to enjoy the economic and social freedoms that do not exist in ignorant, barbaric overseas countries.
Americans are fully entitled to deny entry to foreign students who come from hostile states. Those states are listed in the second quote.
This list of hostile states omits 3 important political states: Hong Kong, mainland China, and Taiwan province. The Chinese support
And how exactly do POWs held without a trial apply to the security (or lack thereof) of your family? Aren't you being a little bit too receptive to European anti-US propaganda?
1. I was not specifically talking about McCarthy and the "super vast majority" of people he accused, more about the atmosphere of conformity and the risks of speaking out.
2. Nobody said the people I'm speaking of who oppose the U.S. government in certain policy issues are against the interests of the United States. Criticising your own government does NOT make you a traitor, sorry. That's a right you have.
3. I am not a U.S. citizen, merely someone who believes in the concepts on which it was founded. Happily, I won't have people screaming "Traitor!" in my face if I dare question what my government is doing.
However, if we (the western world, but especially the States) allow a few uber-fundementalist Islamists whithout even mainstream support by their religion to dictate what can and will be researched, they get that much closer to their goal. Tough call, risk stagnation or distaster?
This is so true!
But 20% isn't that much. I'm sure the universities will try to find another source of cheap labor that they can exploit. Maybe this will fuel underground human cloning.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
"O Brave New World, that has such people in it." Well actually it reminds me of the book, where society is encouraged to worship science and technology, yet scientific research is censored by their government.
-------
"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
-- George Orwell
It's boring and trite. A protest for the unoriginal.
I've seen the storage shelves of a university's labs and they are truly scary, with half-inch long sublimated cyanic crystals formed around the caps of jars that have been unopened for tens of years - very pretty and very lethal - so long that it would require a hazardous waste disposal team to even pick up said jars. Christ, after hearing about Dr. Plague above, who know what other kind of shit biologists/chemist keep in their closet, waiting for the unsuspecting janitor to stumble upon it!
As for foreign grad students, this has been studied heavily. The real reason the U.S. has so many foreign grad students is not because they're excellent, but because it was considered good foreign policy to fund these persons. And nowadays such U.S. funds are more likely to be used to put an Argentinian through cosmetics school than a Bangladeshi through the Stanford physics program. IMO there should be no U.S. government funding of foreign students whatsoever.
There are plenty of qualified people in the U.S. to fill these openings and more.
More than 100,000 people voted for the Communist party candidate and more than 880,000 people for the Socialist candidate in 1932- do you believe they were all traitors? Do you believe it is just to prosecute US citizens because they had been members of a legal, official US political party 20 years earlier?
Please read "USA is Right: Security before Science". The American government acted appropriately.
The parent article is way off base. The matter is about banning foreign students from certain kinds of research and has nothing to do with free speech. Most educated Americans support free speech, but at the same time, most educated Americans oppose the idea of someone coming from a terrorist state like China to work on high-tech projects in the USA. Please read "USA is Right: Security Before Science".
The USA, infested with foreign students, may be slightly ahead of Japan in certain areas of high technology, but is the USA 20 years ahead of Japan? No. The temporal difference is closer to 3 years. Reducing the number of foreign students by 99% in the USA in exchange for the USA "falling behind" by about 3 years in scientific development is acceptable for most Americans. The USA of 2000 is almost as good a place to live as the USA of 2003.
Please read "USA is Right: Security before Science".
Allowing anyone and everyone into your country can't possibly be considered a good thing for most countries. But I see a lot of good things coming from letting students enter your country - just as students from your country enter mine.
How about cultural understanding? The USA doesn't exactly have the best reputation here in Europe. You might not care - but we are quite a few people who would have live in a World where people understanding each others cultural backgrounds - so we can all be at least friendly on some level.
I went to Virginia as a high school exchange student - spent a year there and learned a lot about americans the US in general that I would never have learned as a tourist. When you live among people you learn quite a lot more about them than when you just stay at they hotels and see their monuments. This knowledge I took back to my home country (Denmark) and have since then told a lot about my experience - and I believe that I to some degree have given quite a few danes a more varied impression of the US. Likewise I have told countless of americans about Denmark - and they have experienced how we really aren't that different from them.
And just like I went to the USA some american student (although all too few and even fewer in these times) take the trip to a froeign country - both promoting the US and taking back an understanding of a different culture.
Closing down your country is not the answer. Not economically and not culturally. Americans have a tendency to believe they can pretty much handle everything themselves. Although that is true to a degree it is, and has always been, far from true in all cases. You need to trade with the rest of the World - and to do that you need foreigners who know your country and your culture - and most importantly you need a lot of foreigners who have a positive attitude towards you. Otherwise we're all pretty much screwed (or at least worse off financially).
This is exactly the sort of end goal they were trying to achieve.
If you don't believe me, look around at the changes since then.
People don't trust anyone, governments are taking away rights and privacy wholesale.. Censorship.. Jailings for expressing yourself, mass carnage, daily bombardments of news, peoples work/life habits changed.. etc, etc, etc.
The basic fabric of a free society has been ripped to shreds.. They are just loving it.
THIS is their real goal.. destroy free society so everyone is reduced to their level of poverty and opression...
---- Booth was a patriot ----
A different world? It sounds like the old world to me. Here's a old well known quote:
U.S.S.R SURVIVAL REGULATIONS
1. Don't think.
2. If you think, don't talk.
3. If you talk, don't write it down.
4. If you write it down, don't publish it.
5. If you publish it, don't sign it.
6. If you sign it, don't admit it.
6. If you think, talk, write it, publish it, sign it, and admit it, don't be surprised.
Hey, why are you dissing Ashcroft. Didn't you know he's Santa Claus? Just look at the evidence in this old song (which I've modified for emphasis):
Santa Claus Is Coming To Town
-._~-._~-._~-._~-._~-._~-._~-._~
(Written By: J. Fred Coots, Henry Gillespie (c) 1934)
You'd better watch out, you'd better not cry, You'd better not pout, I'm telling you why, [John Ashcroft] is coming to town
He's making a list, he's checkin' it twice, He's gonna find out whose naughty or nice, [John Ashcroft] is coming to town.
He sees you when you're sleeping, He knows when you're awake, He knows if you've been bad or good, So be good for goodness sake. [Or you'll go to Guantanamo Bay].
You'd better watch out, you'd better not cry, You'd better not pout, I'm telling you why, [John Ashcroft] is coming to town.
This is going to continue. I'd say... go now while the number of people leaving the country is a trickle, the first refugees will get the best research opportunities and first pick of the jobs open to Americans.
You want to read about "Reverse Brain Drain, America's New Problem" sitting in Amsterdam or Berlin or London, not as a struggling grad student wondering what the hell you can research that's useful that the Feds and the corporations will allow.
And when you read "America's lead in high technology irretreivable", you really want to do this from outside America.
It sort of fits that America's best and brightest are going to be the first people pushed out of America by Bush.
Tech Public Policy stuff
Please read "USA is Right: Security before Science".
The absence of foreign students from the USA will not hurt the progress of science and engineering in the USA. Countries like Japan have excellent engineering capabilities even though Japanese laws emphasize native talent, not foreign talent, in scientific and engineering research.
Please read "USA is Right: Security before Science".
I wonder if the ancient Greeks were worried about security vs science. After all the an irrational number could cause destabilization.
What is being described is similar to what happened during the second world war and the race create the nuclear bomb. Scientists working for Allied countries were quite concscious about what they did and didn't publish so as not to give too much information to the Germans about the direction they were taking in nuclear fission research. This was even before the Manhattan project was established. Of course, the difference is, back then, Hitler was a clear and present danger. In the present day a lot of the danger is manufactured in order to justify the huge expenditures that go to the American military industrial complex.
Blah. Homeland Security would have had a field day with his work, but a lot of you would seem to approve of that...
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
when I shot him to death!
He's THAT well endowed?
Every time somebody starts with the "remember 911 FOREVER" illness, I ask them if they remember the 1920 Wall Street bombing, or the firebombing of Dresden, or the Haymarket riots, or the Times bombing, and invariably I am rewarded by a blank stare.
Meanwhile, I can't do basic scientific research because no fucking airline in the country will allow me to ship cases of samples (hundreds of little glass vials in padded racks) by air. Guess what, you can't get water samples from the un-electrified hinterlands by boat before the organisms in them DIE.
You retards with your flags held high, and your total incomprehension of what those flags once symbolized, make me so pissed I understand where Osama's coming from.
Flaming Jebus, people, don't you realize the shrub is just a puppet of the pollution industry? Their whole goal is to make oxygen and water COST MONEY, how many times do you have to hear them quote "The Tragedy of the Commons" before you figure it out?
If only you morons could give up your freedoms without endangering mine... I will take my chances with the freakin' terrorists, just put things back the way they were before you all wet your craven pants!
is pretty stupid right now.
so much for mars, extending life, ending poverty and such things like that
all we want to do now it seems if funnel all our money to prisons, security, chemical, and a bunch of bullshit
-Bush Sucks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_U.S._Election_c
I didn't think there was anybody left who still read Wired!
"...talented foreign students are being denied visas..."
Thank GOODNESS for the above. I'm not trying to troll, but I recently left as staff of the UC system. Ya know, the one with all of them nifty research grants and DOE properties. Ya know, the one that even has "california" in the title. Ya know the one that takes shitloads of US tax money in "promise" of create a more enlightened and valuable citizenry. Well, fuck that. People from the americas are a one digit minority in the graduate and research programs. It has nothing to do with talent, skill or intellegence. Believe it or not, I think there is plenty of that to go around. The real story is the professors don't give a rats ass about their host contry, and would rather save a quick buck on forgien labor in the name of "diversity" (his name be blessed). Americans, quick to do the math, figure out very quickly that they get more money and prestige working fast food then the untouchable caste of graduate students.
I am an optimist. I'm sick of this bitching and moaning of lack of talent of america. There's talent out there, and most people have figured it out the maximum return for themselves. It's not in education, and it's especially not in higher education. When the universities give up the self-righteous, pretentious bullshit, and choose to join the rest of us and to help BENIFIT society, THEN the US will lead the world to even higher levels of intellegince and prosperity.
In summary, I don't give a rabid ratt's ass about talented forgien students - Boo fucking hoo!
It is a society in decline. More like already going down the drain. Sad, sad, sad. So sad to see how utterly the USA is destroying itself. Too much is going to be lost.
Brief candles burning brightly and all that, perhaps?
And I just know that many Usans will label this as ``anti-Americanism''. Part of their going down, this inability for self-criticism. Will probably tip the balance against them, in the end. This silly Usan USA-vs-the-rest-of-the-World mentality. They are so afraid, that they tend to see any criticism as an attack. Everyone hates them, they think. They are closing to the world and to truth more and more... you can see it going worse by the week, it's self-amplifying and leads only to self-destruction. USA is spiraling down in tighter and tighter turns. I hope they can stop this spiral down. I hope they do, I expect they wont.
Bush II the Monster said it best: ``You are either with us or against us''. Well, neither. I'm with civilization---too bad the USA is going the other way.
Sad, sad, sad, so very very sad :(
I can only hope that if the USA goes down the world can manage not to be sucked down by the sinking USA. Hope, and work hard to save what we can.
``L'imagination au povoir.''
Sounds like you should be doing the same thing. Unfortunately, the only way to do something about this is to be in a position to buy Congress. Voting only works if the votes are counted honestly, unlikely in a nation where the major voting machine vendor is run by Bush supporters. And in any case, you can do that from somewhere else.
Tech Public Policy stuff
misquote:
In specific, researchers are self-censoring what they publish, talented foreign students are being denied visas (approximately 20%, according to one source in the article)
Take a you look at CEBAF and SURA. They had a large number of non-US researcher-students when it was starting up and of course the applicants should be reviewed closely if for no other reason than it has government funding. Do you want to read about the next terror cell in a headline, "funded by US government research?"
Remember in grade school when one kid would do something bad, and it would ruin the opportunity for all the other kids? Our country started off as one of the most free countries you would live in. The laws were not in your face, and you could do pretty much what you wanted, within reason. But as more wackos ack out their evil, really our government has no choice but to keep censoring more and more stuff.
Last time I flew in an airplane, I remembered back to years before, when I could look up from my seat at the cockpit door, and sometimes it would be open, and you could vaguely see the front of the plane. That was something that we all just took for granted. But now? We have reinforced doors that must be locked at all times. Likewise in scientific research, it is really sad that people cannot publicly share a lot of ideas, because suddenly it can be used for terrorists. Next thing you know, we will all have to walk through metal detectors to go into the grocery store. Seriously, all we need is a few people walking into grocery stores doing what they do in Israel, and they will have to beef up security there... It is pretty scary to think of where all this can go, depending on how many people decide to act out against civilization.
I guess it all comes down to a comprimise. Which is more important... Security and safety or rights?
PS2
This shouldn't be a problem providing that the same tests/results can be performed/achieved, in which case, I would wonder why a scientist would prefer to work with the dangerious pathogen in any case.
-- Mike
There are very few students in the US going into physics. It's not like there are high barriers - if you want to see a warm welcome, go into a physics dept. and tell them you are really interested in doing physics. The only real barrier is desire and if you are capable of handling the subject matter (I realize not everyone is good at or wants to do math).
These people aren't stealing anybody's job. If you could pull random Americans off the street and put them to work as physics grad students, don't you think we'd be doing that? Last semester I taught part time at a University that is surrounded by a ghetto. Why would we import guys from around the world to work there when there are unemployed people on the next block? Its because Igor and Arvint can do the job, and a lot of Americans would rather be on a "reality" show. Not that there aren't any Americans in physics - I'm one.
Where is your physics degree, reporter? If you have one, I can find you a job in under 30 minutes. But I know you don't have one, because if you did, you would know what the situation is, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.
This is entirely contrary to my experience. I haved observed that physics is one of the most difficult and demanding departments one can enter. At my old university the physics department had a reputation for trying to get rid of as many students as possible and being utterly unsympathetic and unhelpful; a friend of mine said he was told by professors that if he didn't eat, breathe, and live physics, he had no chance of being accepted anywhere for graduate school - there were too many applicants and schools could afford to be extremely demanding. Furthermore, people with advanced physics degrees have a very difficult time obtaining physics-related employement and often end up working in another field such as computer science.
Maybe it's different where you are. I'm in New England, in case it matters.
if many viruses that are being studied are destroyed, only the evil guys will keep them (since they don't need to tell the government about that). once used who will provide the cure?
too much bureaucracy is killing the research, expecially those research who is important.
sad, anyway.
-- There are two kind of sysadmins: Paranoids and Losers. (adapted from D. Bach)