Java Desktop System Rivals XP, OSX in Usability

Interesting... by tuba_dude · 2003-09-19 20:34 · Score: 3, Funny

Java, eh? Perfect! I don't have to spill coffee on my computer anymore, it's built-in now!

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"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

Article Summary by Phroggy · 2003-09-19 20:35 · Score: 5, Interesting

So, it rivals OSX in usability because Nautilus has a toolbar button that opens a Documents folder, it can browse SMB and NFS shares, Evolution showed an hourglass cursor while launching, and - are you ready for this? - cut, copy and paste work.

Yep, I'm sold.

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$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;

Re:Article Summary by Bugmaster · 2003-09-19 23:44 · Score: 4, Insightful

You may find it funny, but broken copy/paste is actually the reason I don't use Linux on the desktop. Oh, I'm sorry, what, it's not broken ? It's just giving me a choice of which copy/paste method to use ? Sorry, that's not good enough.
On Windows, I can copy/paste pretty much anything from any program to any other reasonable program -- images, files, text, URLs, whatever. In Linux, I have to use a different button for each program, and half the time it doesn't work at all. If you think that's a trivial complaint, then you probably aren't using a desktop at all -- you must be doing all your work in vi or something.

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>|<*:=
Re:Article Summary by tomstdenis · 2003-09-20 00:36 · Score: 4, Interesting

Um in virtually every app you just highlight text and click the middle [or both for 2 button] button. As for images... well it may be a pain [e.g. download the image and import] but if you're copying alot of images off the web you're a thief anyways so who cares :-)

Tom

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Re:Article Summary by EvilNight · 2003-09-20 02:23 · Score: 4, Insightful

He's definitely right about this one. That sort of copy-paste and drag-drop power is taken for granted in Windows, and it's one of the things a Windows user is going to notice is missing instantly when using linux.

Linux desktop simply isn't ready to tackle Microsoft yet. It's too kludgy and doesn't have enough program interoperability. When it does, I'll switch with a big ole smile on my face. I just hope linux gets a good desktop before I am forced to switch to a Mac to get away from Microsoft.

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Re:Article Summary by stefanlasiewski · 2003-09-20 03:51 · Score: 3, Interesting

Um in virtually every app you just highlight text and click the middle [or both for 2 button] button.

I hate this method. If I accidently highlight any other text in any other application, I loose the items in the cut-n-paste buffer.

And then there is the case where I can hit the middle mouse button to paste some text, but if I hit CTRL-V , I get some competely different text.

I prefer the Windows method. It provides more control over what is in the buffer, and it's harder to blow it away by accident.

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Re:Article Summary by whereiswaldo · 2003-09-20 04:04 · Score: 2, Informative

Um in virtually every app you just highlight text and click the middle [or both for 2 button] button.

I hate this method. If I accidently highlight any other text in any other application, I loose the items in the cut-n-paste buffer.

I agree that it can cause problems. Namely, when I cut something to the clipboard it is sometimes very important that it not be lost before being pasted somewhere else. Say I'm cutting code from one editor to another. I could make a backup, but then my productivity goes down if I have to do this many times. Plus, that would interfere with the flow of my work.

I have, though, that cut and paste in Linux is vastly improved nowadays. At least Ctrl-X/C/V finally work in GUI applications. And to those who would say "just because Windows does it that way, doesn't mean it's intuitive", what is the point in choosing a different way? Would you choose different default shortcut keys? How would it differ functionally that's better? And is it worth the steeper learning curve for new users?
Re:Article Summary by David_W · 2003-09-20 04:19 · Score: 2, Insightful

If I want to replace existing text with the text I'm pasting, can I highlight it and paste over it? No.

I'll easily grant the first two points you mentioned, but this last one isn't fair. The first ones deal with missing features, while this one is a methodolgy issue. Highligting text to place it in the cut buffer is Just the Way X Works. X shouldn't have to change it's behavior just because that's how the clipboard works in Windows. I know many people who greatly prefer the X behavior, even though they can't do what you stated above.

(That being said, it would be nice to have as an option you can toggle, but that doesn't seem to be what you were advocating here.)
Re:Article Summary by TKinias · 2003-09-20 05:07 · Score: 2, Informative

scripsit daviddennis:

Unfortunately, I don't remember ever seeing a three-button mouse on a non-Unix system, so I think it's fair to evaluate the user interface based on the far more common two-button arrangement.

The reason you don't find many three-button mice out there is that the wheel on the MS `IntelliMouse' and similar mice is the third button. You'd be hard pressed to find a new PC sold without a wheel mouse. Unless you're talking about truly antiquated hardware (my 1999 Dell came with an IntelliMouse), three buttons is pretty standard.

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Re:Article Summary by Phroggy · 2003-09-20 11:03 · Score: 2, Informative

I've seen some places where shift-insert doesn't work. I think the address and subject fields in Microsoft Outlook is one place; you must use ctrl-v instead. And of course there are plenty of X apps that don't support that sort of thing.

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$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
Re:Article Summary by RevAaron · 2003-09-20 13:44 · Score: 2, Insightful

Drag-n-drop power is also something I miss when using Windows. I don't consider myself loyal to any platform, I'll use what works. On a PC, your drag-n-drop abilities are pretty severely limited to a handful of operations, and apps typically have to support it specifically. On Mac OS, a lot of areas support DnD without the developer having to write code for it especially. For instance, on the Mac, I can select some text- in an edit field, Word doc, or just on a webpage and drag it to my desktop. Or drag it to Emacs or some other editor.

This kind of functionality doesn't sound all that important. But it can really reduce the time it takes to grab some information, among other things. I can just select some text in my emacs-based IRC client and drag it to Safari, and it'll see that it's a URL and go there. Very handy.

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Re:Article Summary by stefanlasiewski · 2003-09-21 06:36 · Score: 2, Informative

Windows has multiple cut-n-paste buffers also (not that I ever use them).

You can hold different items in the buffer, paste them to an application in any order you want. There is some method for switching the order of items in the buffer.

So, similar to what you are suggesting, but slightly more intuitive.

--
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."

i'm interested... by mOoZik · 2003-09-19 20:35 · Score: 3, Insightful

...but having a website with broken links (particularly of the screenshot) isn't the best way to garner support, especially for a product with fierce competition.

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A blog like any other.

Re:i'm interested... by Malcolm+Scott · 2003-09-19 20:40 · Score: 5, Informative

The enlarged screenshot is actually here, for anyone interested.
Re:i'm interested... by tuba_dude · 2003-09-19 20:42 · Score: 3, Funny

I wonder if it was a good idea for someone to leave their buddy list open while taking a screenshot? They could be aliases, but still...

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"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
Re:i'm interested... by ozric99 · 2003-09-19 21:26 · Score: 4, Funny

The enlarged screenshot is actually here, for anyone interested.
Enlarged? I'd probably think it was enlarged if I was browsing using my phone. Just how small does something have to be for it to enlarge to that size?
Oh, wait.. we're geeks. Small is good... remember the mantra, small is good... it's how you use it that counts.. ;-)
Re:i'm interested... by passthecrackpipe · 2003-09-19 22:38 · Score: 2, Funny

heh, yeah, and check out the "Company Structure" slide. No wonder Sun is going downhill faster then a brick dropping from a plane......

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Links to ads? by PhreakinPenguin · 2003-09-19 20:37 · Score: 2, Funny

Funny how the article on Slashdot has an ad for Microsoft and when reading the linked article, I get an ad for an MS product too.

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It "rivals XP" for usability? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-09-19 20:41 · Score: 3, Funny

Um... that's kind of like saying blows the doors off a 386-SX25.

Sun, eh? by sosume · 2003-09-19 20:41 · Score: 3, Insightful

So what's the advantage of switching from a Microsoft OS to one from Sun? Since it's not free I actually feel it's a rip-off and a major vendor lock-in. JVMs running everywhere on your machine. I'll pass, thank you very much!

Sun is making profit over the open source community by selling free software bundled with their own.

Re:Sun, eh? by trout_fish · 2003-09-19 21:18 · Score: 5, Insightful

If you don't want companies to be able to make profit from your code then you should choose a more appropriate license. If you choose the GPL (or similar) then you choose to let companies profit from you code.
Re:Sun, eh? by Cederic · 2003-09-19 22:28 · Score: 5, Insightful

>> Since it's not free I actually feel it's a rip-off and a major vendor lock-in. JVMs running everywhere on your machine.

Hmm. Those two statements don't match.

It's vendor lock-in because it's $50/year licencing. Migrating away is a matter of installing Linux, Gnome and Java and running the same applications on those.

What you'll lose are the Sun additions that make it so cheap to maintain, sort out usability, etc. But that's why they're charging for it.

JVMs running everywhere is such a non-issue I'm confused by you raising it. You are aware that there are multiple sources of JVMs, and they all work identically?

~Cederic
Re:Sun, eh? by passthecrackpipe · 2003-09-19 22:43 · Score: 2, Flamebait

That's it. People should really look deeper into the Sun Open Source shenanigans. Besides the SCO crap, and now their "we indemnify you" crap, everything Sun has "given" to the community has come with a whole heap of strings attached, and its only purpose is to serve to the greater good of Sun. Anything that would even so much as hint to being a "competitive edge" is closed source. I have two issues with this particular setup>

First of all, I think that from a corporate perspective, The "desktop appliance" idea sucks. It is a Wintel blowback in terms of technology - i.e. treating the Linux/Unix desktop in the same vein as a windows desktop is simply stupid. The technical underpinning of this particular train of thought is that in Windows, playing with the setup of the machine will most likely fsck up your machine. In linux, the worst that can happen is that your colourscheme turns green and purple.

Secondly, the Desktop Appliance idea is just another form of Vendor Lock-in. No different from Microsoft. When it comes to desktops, there is no such thing as "one size fits all" - every user, every culture, every company, they all have different approaches to performing work. In order to truly serve your user base, you must customise this desktop. An appliance by default will not allow you to do that easily.

Don't for a second confuse this with Open Source. The fact that Sun ripped off large chuncks of work from the Open Sopurce community is not a plus, and will do *nothing* positive to the community. I want to see Sun distributing their own code along with the code they lifted of the community. I want their patches, their settings, their changes. Bet you they won't do it. I have worked with Sun in the Open source community long enought to know that Sun only cares about one thing when it comes to Open Source, and that's free labour.

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Re:Sun, eh? by marmoset · 2003-09-20 00:14 · Score: 4, Funny

Yep, that's certainly been the experience of the KHTML team, right? The rendering fixes here, for instance never make it back into Konqueror, right?

stuff they couldn't write themselves

Yep, because if there's one thing someone like Jordan Hubbard couldn't manage, it's writing BSD userland code.
(extended eyeroll)
Re:Sun, eh? by ball-lightning · 2003-09-20 00:37 · Score: 2, Funny

The technical underpinning of this particular train of thought is that in Windows, playing with the setup of the machine will most likely fsck up your machine. In linux, the worst that can happen is that your colourscheme turns green and purple.

Meh, I wish =(
Re:Sun, eh? by passthecrackpipe · 2003-09-20 01:13 · Score: 4, Informative
Coincidentally, I just came across this little gem of an interview with Jonathan Schwartz, Sun's executive vice president for software. It is full of cute little quotes such as:
- "Also, let me really clear about our Linux strategy. We don't have one. We don't at all. We do not believe that Linux plays a role on the server. Period. If you want to buy it, we will sell it to you, but we believe that Solaris is a better alternative, that is safer, more robust, higher quality and dramatically less expensive in purchase price."
- "If you use Linux on the server, even if we sold the distribution to you, you are on your own. If you buy our Java desktop solution you are completely indemnified as long as you run it as a desktop solution. And by the way, don't take our desktop product and put it on the server. We are indemnifying them for our products. If we incorporate someone else's component we will make sure that we can indemnify it. I have licenses to all those issues that SCO is suing IBM for. If I didn't have them, I certainly wouldn't indemnify them."
- "eWEEK: So, does the uncertainty around Linux benefit Sun and Solaris?
  Schwartz: We have an interesting migration opportunity now because we can go back with Unix that is familiar, we can deliver the Java Enterprise System pricing at $100 per employee, which allows them to run Solaris at infinite scale.
With friends like these, we don't need enemies....
--
People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.
Re:Sun, eh? by NineNine · 2003-09-20 01:47 · Score: 2, Insightful

Sun only cares about one thing when it comes to Open Source, and that's free labour.

And your point is....? When you give stuff away to everybody and anybody, you can't pout when someone takes your stuff (that you gave them) and makes a ton of money off of it. I don't blame 'em one bit. If this is a useable product and they can make money from it, then good for them. Now, quit your bitching.
Re:Sun, eh? by hollow_man · 2003-09-20 02:07 · Score: 4, Insightful

Oh please, you just bash Sun because it's the fashionable thing to do on Slashdot these days.

As other posters pointed out, what about the usability engineers Sun put on Gnome? Or the work they did on Apache/TomCat, or OpenOffice?

btw if you don't think OpenOffice is free, why don't you fork it?

Also Sun is a company and it's in business to make money, not to please OSS developers. Yes, it has taken from the OSS world but who can blame them? If you didn't want ppl taking advantage of the OSS code written , under whatever License (be it BSD or GPL) then perhaps you just should have released it under another license...

You can't stop someone from using software released under $FREE_LICENSE just because you don't like them.

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Re:Sun, eh? by passthecrackpipe · 2003-09-20 02:33 · Score: 2, Informative

I have given little, if any, reason for my "Sun Bashing", so the fact that you assume to know my motivation for my position must make you a clairvoyant. None of that has anything to do with what is popular on Slashdot these days. I think I have made it clear on which issues I disagree with Sun, and for what reasons. You chose to ignore them, and toss about the usual bunch of red herrings.

The usability work that Sun has put into Gnome is questioned by many, and can be said to only serve to confirm the long term position Sun wants to take with respect to desktop computing. That does not make their work wrong, it simply confirms my point of view that Sun does not do anything for the "community", and does not at any point act altruistically.

This isn't about whether or not Sun has the right to use open source code, far from it - nowhere do I state that they have been naughty or that they have been stealing - I simply point out that their relationship with the "community" is not all that good. Look into the mailarchives of the projects you mention to gauge that communities opinion of Sun. secondly, I point out that for all the posturing, Sun's new desktop is not Open source, and does not deliver to the customer those benefits that make open source such a good porposition for customers. In the long term, this could well turn out to be the most damaging effect for Open source. Finally, to say that this new desktop is going to be cheap in any way is ludicrous. the cost of migration to and implementation of this offering is going to be high, very high.

I don't give a rats about what sun does, as long as they don't make false claims and statements, and as long as they would stop posturing as some great "Open Source" benefactor. They are not a benefactor, (neither are IBM or any of the vendors for that matter, but that is a different story).

What is your point, anyhow? What did I say specifically that you disagree with? That is not very clear to me. On the other hand, you make it seem as if the way Sun is acting is the only way a company can interact with an Open Source community, which is a sad and blinkered view of the world. Look to Codewaevers, for an example of a truly symbiotic relationship between closed and open source. Look to Sun on the other hand, for a good example of as parasitic relationship.....

--
People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.
Re:Sun, eh? by IGnatius+T+Foobar · 2003-09-20 03:45 · Score: 5, Insightful
The fact that Sun ripped off large chuncks of work from the Open Sopurce community is not a plus, and will do *nothing* positive to the community. [...] I have worked with Sun in the Open source community long enought to know that Sun only cares about one thing when it comes to Open Source, and that's free labour.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am sick and tired of hearing all this Sun-bashing from a bunch of half-witted Slashbots.

Sun has contributed more to the open source community than IBM.
- We could of course start with classics like NFS and NIS, which appear pretty much everywhere specifically because Sun open sourced them.
- You think GNOME made such a vast improvement between 1.x and 2.x because a bunch of kids wrote code in their spare time? Sun has a lot of people working feverishly on GNOME. That's why it's so damn polished these days. Sun also contributed nearly all of the new accessibility features, which is a requirement to get in the door for some of those government contracts we want so desperately to see Linux win right now.
- Ever heard of OpenOffice? Do you think Linux has even a ghost of a chance on the mainstream desktop without it? (If you answered yes, please take your KOffice CD and your delusions elsewhere.) We have Sun, and only Sun, to thank for freeing this absolutely crucial piece of software.
Sun's biggest liability is Scott McNealy's big mouth. Everyone knows that, and hopefully Sun will wise up someday and either replace him or find a way to get him to quiet down. But to paint Sun as a big advocate of closed software and lock-in, similar to Microsoft or SCO, is beyond stupid. It's just plain hypocritical. Sun's attitude towards Linux is a bit schizophrenic, but they are not the enemy. They may not have gotten up the guts to slap a GPL on the Java runtime, but that doesn't mean they're not a big contributor to the open source pool in other places.
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Re:Sun, eh? by rshimizu12 · 2003-09-20 07:07 · Score: 2, Interesting

The Java Desktop system will be the most leading edge GUI on the market. It will be at least several generations ahead of MAC OSX or Microsoft's forthcoming longhorn. If you want more functionality and a richer experience like 3d then you will probably have to pay. Unless the the opensource community want's to step up and commit the progreamming resources necessary.

And the best part is... by tsa · 2003-09-19 20:42 · Score: 3, Interesting

Unlike MS systems, this will be REALLY configurable, so that more computer-savvy users can change the window manager and the behaviour of the windows, etc... This system may set the standard for many KDE/Gnome versions and distro's to come.

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Re:Working Screenshot Link by Anonymous Coward · 2003-09-19 20:42 · Score: 2, Funny

http://sdc.sun.com/partners/sunjavasystem/javadesk topsystem/images/72.jpg

Damn, the link is broken again! I keep clicking on the link you posted and nothing happened!

Re:This is only for Java apps? by Malcolm+Scott · 2003-09-19 20:43 · Score: 3, Informative

It looks like it's just ordinary Gnome with a theme, like Ximian Desktop. Correct me if I'm wrong, but none of the apps running in the screenshot were Java-based... it shows StarOffice, Gaim(?) and Evolution.

Re:This is only for Java apps? by heironymouscoward · 2003-09-19 20:44 · Score: 2, Interesting

I know the review implies that it is a Linux distro, using Gnome and running StarOffice and various OSS apps, but the Sun description of the Java Desktop implies a Java-only platform with "Gnome look and feel", which is not quite the same thing.

The review and Sun's own pages appear to be describing two different things. Perhaps simply because Sun wants to push the Java aspects, something that I suspect interests relatively few people.

Perhaps the fact that there is a demo CD but nothing to actually try makes the discussion a little moot.

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Re:This is only for Java apps? by Hektor_Troy · 2003-09-19 20:45 · Score: 4, Informative

Jumping the gun a bit? (Which is the polite way to say 'read the freaking article)

Sun has done a nice job in extending the desktop's theme to every application and widget I tried including Sun's own Java applications and familiar Open Source offerings like gtkam and CD Player. The Nautilus file browser

and of curse Star Office 7.

Just to exercise your brain cells - Linux (and XFree) is written in C - does this prevent you from running programs written in other languages?

Jeez - the stupidity of some people.

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The Price by zwoelfk · 2003-09-19 20:52 · Score: 4, Insightful

From the article: The price, $50 per seat per year, including updates and support is attractive, especially if Sun's $100/seat Java Enterprise System lives up to its goal of allowing 2000+ users to be administered by a single IT worker.

I was interested in checking it out, but at $50/seat/year it's a little to much for me to suggest setting up on all the machines. I don't mind paying -- but I have Windows machines that I haven't paid anything for in years. I don't have to pay unless I want to upgrade those boxes. This looks like a solution that's trying to be as much like Windows as possible, but with a TCO that's higher.

I'd be OK with $100 flat fee. Then if I want support (past 30 days or whatever), I can pay extra.
That said I might want to get one seat just to check it out, but there's no way it's going to replace my current Linux or Windows desktops at that price.

Z.

Re:The Price by zwoelfk · 2003-09-19 20:58 · Score: 3, Insightful

(Responding to my own post...)
Also, since Sun's page doesn't make it clear, I assume that the desktop can't be redirected to another machine without a new seat license. Right now I have dumb terminals that use KDE that is running on a server and redirected over ssh. How will this kind of setup be integrated into this desktop (and still checking licenses?) -- and how easy will it be to transfer licenses around? For example, can I have 4 "floating" licenses that are used as thin laptops connect to the servers for a desktop? I don't have anywhere near enough information to decide on this regardless of how "good" it is.
Re:The Price by afidel · 2003-09-19 21:42 · Score: 3, Insightful

Actually IF they can pull that off it would be DAMN cheap. Typical ratio in IT is one desktop person per 100-250 end users, if they can scale that back to 1/8th as many for an already well run organization then this thing would pay for itself many times over. For instance a typical desktop support professional probably makes between 35-55K/year plus benifits depending on the local market, so removing 7 professionals for those 2,000 users costs $100K but saves around $350K in personell. I really doubt anything can get support needs that low though, people are just dumb/ignorant and will need hand holding.

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Re:The Price by runenfool · 2003-09-19 22:04 · Score: 5, Interesting

Actually, at the risk of sounding like a zealot I've heard of organizations with ratios of 1 IT guy supporting a couple thousand machines without difficulty. Crazy? Nope - Mac OS X (and OS 9 before it even). I didn't believe it myself (and Im a Mac user), but people with large Mac installations (all three of them) seem to get by pretty well without a lot of support costs.

My memory is a bit hazy, but I think I talked to a few folks in K12 who made those types of claims (I was trying to do an informal TCO study of large Mac installations since you can't find a good recent one from something like Gartner), as well as a guy from Los Alamos IIRC. Perhaps we just got used to the support intensive Windows model.

OK, Im being a little vague, but its 3am and my buzz is wearing off :)
Re:The Price by KoolDude · 2003-09-19 22:37 · Score: 3, Informative

I was interested in checking it out, but at $50/seat/year it's a little to much for me to suggest setting up on all the machines

Actually, the $50/employee/year pricing is only if you have the Java Enterprise System also. Otherwise, it is $100/Desktop/Year. If you take a look at the Sun Network Computing 03-Q3 web cast, Jonathan Schwartz justified their pricing mainly on following points:

1. A company looking for a Microsoft upgrade will find it has to pay $179 for Windows XP and $279 for Office. So, they are primarily targetting companies that are looking for an upgrade.[I am not too sure about the prices, but Sun's offering is way cheaper).

2. The cost also includes the cost for migration and support. They will assist and even indemnify against SCO-like lawsuits.

3. A phone system for an employee costs $300 to buy + $300 per year for maintenance. Sun demonstrated software that uses VoIP and existing networks to integrate the telephone with this desktop. Lucent is providing the technology for this.

4. Even the $100 is chosen so that CIOs can calculate the amount spent on IT in their head. 1000 desktops, the spending is $100,000. That's it.

If anyone's interested, the presentation also shows Looking Glass 3D desktop and compatibility demonstrations using Office documents from Microsoft's website.

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Re:The Price by zwoelfk · 2003-09-19 22:38 · Score: 2, Informative

You aren't the target market. Its aimed at large organization that can use an inexpensive desktop for groups of people.

Maybe you're right, maybe I'm not the target market. But I still am the one making these decisions. They have to convince me.

As far as you go, your TCO calculations are confused as well. You are comparing not paying anything more for what you already have versus spending anything for something new. Under those circumstances nothing will look good, even another windows or linux box. Try comparing a new windows box with office versus Sun's new kit. The math looks a little different.

No, that's not what I'm doing. I'm saying I keep Windows boxes (and Linux/BSD/etc.) running longer than their costs. The cost for Windows isn't really significant because it's a one-time cost - and many machines don't get upgraded for quite a while (uh.. because they work now and I don't need to change them?) -- So when I look at a set of machines and have to decide what I'm going to install, am I going to install/recommend something with a annual cost, or something we can just buy and forget? Also remember that some machines (not connected to the internet) work just fine and are rarely touched by any IT -- now they would have to be tracked (license costs), and that is extra work for IT and accounting. Sometimes it's worth it, sometimes it isn't -- In this case, I haven't seen any evidence to say it is.

Desktop or distro ? by MoonFog · 2003-09-19 20:56 · Score: 4, Informative

In this glowing review Chris Gulker calls Sun's Java Desktop System 'the most polished and real-world user-ready Linux desktop in existence.

From this article :
The "proper" name of Sun Linux is "Java Desktop System" (which can be confusing as Sun is branding everything as "%java%" lately, exactly the same way Microsoft did with their ".NET"). The development/high-end version of Java Desktop System (JDS) is called "Java Enterprise System". The distribution is based on SuSE 8.2 and not on Red Hat Linux as it was originally said about a year ago.
According to that article Java Desktop System is a Linux distribution, not just a desktop.

What is it anyway? by Mjlner · 2003-09-19 20:57 · Score: 4, Insightful

From the FAQ:
The Java Desktop System is shipped with Java 2 Platform, Standard Edition, 1.4.2 (with support for GNOME Look & Feel). The Java runtime is built into the desktop and into the Mozilla browser.

I get the strong feeling that this is nothing more than a customized Gnome-distro with support for Java binaries. Especially since there is no information on what it really is...

That raises the question "So what?". Why should I be interested?

--
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Re:What is it anyway? by MoonFog · 2003-09-19 21:06 · Score: 4, Informative

I don't know what a "gnome-distro" is, but accodring to this article :

The distribution is based on SuSE 8.2 and not on Red Hat Linux as it was originally said about a year ago. Yast2 and other SuSE/administrative utilities are only accessible via the command line and not from the graphical menu system. The desktop is based on Gnome 2.2, though Sun's engineers have tweaked it quite a bit.
Re:What is it anyway? by Kynde · 2003-09-20 01:10 · Score: 2, Interesting

So, if it's gnome based and all that, then how can it be 50$/seat? I mean, mustn't the sw be downloadable from the net, regardless of how much the "Sun's engineers have tweaked it quite a bit"

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1 Earth is warming, 2 It's us, 3 it's royally bad, 4 we need to take action NOW

Re:Not such a bad idea? by borggraefe · 2003-09-19 20:58 · Score: 2, Informative

The Sun Java Desktop System has as much to do with Java as every average Linux distribution.

The term "Java" in the name of this product is just marketing. The Java Desktop System consists of normal Linux applications and is not written in Java!

Come on, guys ... by Chromodromic · 2003-09-19 20:58 · Score: 3, Insightful

One improvement is the Documents folder on the desktop.

Wow. Java's really opening up the world to the power of Linux usability. And to think, how many years went by without the Documents folder on the desktop?

That's why successive Windows interfaces have been progressively dumbed-down from the perspective of a highly-computer-literate user. Marketing types refer to this as greater ease of use.

Okay. Usability design types, however, refer to it as "progressive dumbing down".

The Nautilus file browser, while initially set to a large icon view, allowed a side pane and file tree display not unlike Windows Explorer, and it uncomplainingly offered a view of everything in the file system, another feature that presumably would not be welcomed in an enterprise production desktop.

Uncomplainingly? Yeah, okay, it's a word, technically, but it sucks as a word. If the writologist proofreadicated his articlation, he might findify prosage less awkwarditious.

Nevertheless, it's a relief that the usability of Windows Explorer is retained in the Java Desktop.

Also, is Java really open sourced? Is StarOffice? OpenOffice is, but StarOffice, well ...

Whatever. The article reads like marketing spooge, and it's based on a demo off a CD. Did this really make Slashdot's home page?

Crap. And to think my post about stripper techno-implants got rejected ...

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Chr0m0Dr0m!C

Re:Come on, guys ... by Prowl · 2003-09-19 23:44 · Score: 2, Funny

Was the article written by George Bush?

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That man tried to kill mah Daddy

the 'real world' by timelady · 2003-09-19 21:02 · Score: 3, Insightful

You know what? I LIVE in the real world. I DONT like the standard that windows sets. I LIKE being able to customise my fvwm desktop to suit myself.

What this does is just allow the trained masses to migrate easily. Great. A start, probably. But a leap forward for Linux? Sorry, just dont see it that way. Why do people get excited when another windows clone comes out, and we are supposed to act like its the Holy Grail for Linux?

Having said that, I understand the business rationale of not wanting to retrain its end users, its a productivity issue. But I dont see how I am suddenly in the UNREAL world because i use, and train users, in Linux. I find windows, and its lack of customisation, closed source, and limited administration, to be a bit surreal, personally!

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Nothing - well thats something.

Re:the 'real world' by Cederic · 2003-09-19 22:41 · Score: 5, Insightful

Try supporting a multi-thousand desktop environment. You really really DON'T want users customising and modifying their desktop environment.
- standard roll-outs of apps no longer work or take considerably longer development effort
- training becomes more of a pain
- people spend all day changing their settings instead of being productive
- people change things so they no longer work, then ring up and complain that things no longer work (cost for helpdesk, for people to go out and fix it, etc)

The lack of customisation is a big bonus in an enterprise corporate environment.

For the record, I always customise my desktop, its appearance, and do naughty things like installing my own web browser instead of using the corporate standard. Which is why I always argue that development boxes (which I use) shouldn't have the same constraints that standard users boxes have. Double-standards, etc :)

~Cederic

Usability? What usability? Where? by Mjlner · 2003-09-19 21:03 · Score: 3, Insightful

Where in the "article" is usability mentioned? Or ease of use? Or user friendliness?

Where in the "article" does it say that the "Desktop" delivers anything more than support for Java?

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Lemon curry???

Congrats... Sun has pretty widgets! by Talez · 2003-09-19 21:06 · Score: 3, Interesting

That's great. It has pretty icons and widgets.

Now could I please have a rundown on all the backend stuff?

This includes but is not limited to:

What tools do Sun intend to provide me with so that I can create a Standard Operating Environment.

How effective are these tools in large scale configurations?

How well can application rollouts be managed on >100 machines?

"SUN HAS PRETTY WIDGETS!" doesn't give me any useful information whatsoever.

Java? by WebfishUK · 2003-09-19 21:11 · Score: 2, Interesting

I see no mention of Java being used in the core of this system, it's all built on Gnome & GTK isn't it? I heard that Sun have started to recognise the marketing potential in Java and said they will be exploiting it to greater extent in the future. Is that what is happening here?

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-- "Can't sleep, clowns will eat me!"

Not again... by cenobita · 2003-09-19 21:12 · Score: 4, Interesting

Can we say *yawn*?

Ximian pops up looking like Outlook. The overall layout looks like Windows. Ad nauseum. Once again, someone is scraping together a Linux distro, trying to make it look like Windows, and giving us absolutely jack in terms of innovation, *better* usability, or creativity. Trying to accomodate Windows users by giving them a similar interface, but branding it Linux, is just plain foolish.

Make a product that's better than Windows on *all* counts, is bundled with custom-written applications instead of tweaked versions of existing ones, and then i'll raise an eyebrow.

I don't think Windows is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but let's acknowledge the faults of the alternatives. There are dozens upon dozens of Linux distributions, and so far, i've seen virtually *nothing* worth noting from an interface perspective. We brand everything as being intended for this and that audience, this and that purpose, whatever emphasis..but with the exception of some underlying framework, isn't this just a essentially a rehash of what dozens have done before?

I'm sure this will get more than few people stepping up to proclaim the vast differences between their distro of choice, but please save it. "Debian uses apt!", "Gentoo uses portage and is intended for..!" meh. They're both Linux, they both lend the capacity to do whatever the hell you want, and they can both be made to run the exact same applications...which, really, is what the average end user cares about, above all.

The average user is going to take one look at this stuff and go, "Ok, so if it looks like Windows, but doesn't run all the apps I need, why bother?"

Re:Not again... by Pedrito · 2003-09-20 01:10 · Score: 2, Insightful

Once again, someone is scraping together a Linux distro, trying to make it look like Windows, and giving us absolutely jack in terms of innovation, *better* usability, or creativity.

Actually, that's precisely what Linux needs. If it doesn't look like and work like what people are used to, they're not going to use it. I agree some innovation would be nice, but I'd settle for something that works like Windows for the most part.

The Linux community has tried time and again to do new, fresh, creative things with the desktop, and it repeatedly fails to gain favor with end users for one simple reason. They don't understand it becuase it doesn't work like what they're used to.

Sun is on the right track. Once you start getting the mainstream users over, then the innovations will come, little by little.

I have two neighbors who have their XP boxes so customized in terms of UI that I can barely find my way around. That's frustrating as hell, especially when it's me that needs to fix something on them.

The first time I used a windowing environment under Linux, it was set for the right mouse button to do what I expected the left mouse button to do. I could never get used to it.

The target here is your Joe Average computer user, and this is what you want to do to get companies to buy it for Joe Average

Forget innovation for now. Marketshare is what you want. I truely want to see Linux succeed, but I've seen the hype for years and the problem has always been the failure to follow the paradigm that users are used to. People don't like change. I don't mean geeks, I mean people. Mr "Joe Average" mentioned above. They want simplicity and comfort. They want to be able to get on with their work without having to relearn how to do everything that they already know how to do in Windows. And that's what company IT departments are looking to satisfy.

Explain by Bloodmoon1 · 2003-09-19 21:15 · Score: 2, Interesting

How XP can even be mentioned in a way that suggets it's even in the same usability tier as OS X? People who use OS X, love OS X. People who use XP, absolutly hate XP. Not to mention XP has that wonderus task based system where it takes, by my count last time I used a PC, 5 steps to even be able to see your files. It takes 1 on OS X, and I don't have to dig through system control panels to do it. Look, maybe this is a bit flamey, but more than anything it's true. OS X is, by far, the easiest, most powerful OS I have ever personally used. A open sourced, Unix core, no known viruses that are not for a Microsoft program, and just ease and intuitive of use. I de-wormed 7 PCs during the last Windows worm outbreak, I last de-virused a Mac 4 years ago. That's a big usability point to me

But hey, so far as the story goes, I don't know if this will or won't even be around next year, especially given Sun's seemingly forever questionable financial status (I once owned Sun stock, I'm intensely familiar with this). All I do know is, one more alternative on the desktop is not a bad thing, especially when it is something basically brand new.

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Request: ECM unit, 1000 km fullerene cable, 1 tactical nuclear weapon. Reason: Birthday party for foreign dignitary.

Re:Explain by Likes+Microsoft · 2003-09-19 23:18 · Score: 2, Interesting

Mac OSX is better than XP. I get it. Really. I am writing this from an XP laptop, because I didn't want to spend the extra $$ on a Mac laptop. Does Apple have any plans for porting their OS to Pentium machines?
Rant (which you may want to ignore): Actually, I like XP's interface just fine. Any time I would complain about it, I go use a Gnome or KDE desktop and end up grumbling about the Windows niceties that are missing. OK. Not really. Gnome is actually pretty decent. But my sysadmin, in his infinite wisdom, has locked down all desktop customization features, so I can't change a damn thing.

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-- Who am I? How did I get here? My God, what have I done?!
Re:Explain by BlueF · 2003-09-19 23:18 · Score: 2, Insightful

People who use XP, absolutly hate XP.

I absolutely love everything about XP except M$. Go figure.

In terms of useability, features, and *GASP* simplicity -- really, we're talking user interface here -- XP does nearly every single thing I want it to. In fact, rarely do I find myself thinking of a feature that if not included, hasn't already been thought of and created by 3rd parties.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to love OS X or any other *nix flavor. Sadly, I've yet to meet a distro that can hold a candle to the useability I've learned in Windows over the years.

Then, aren't most of us stuck in the same trap, more or less, with the OS we "know" best?

Marketing spooge by heironymouscoward · 2003-09-19 21:15 · Score: 2, Funny

I was searching for the correct description of this article, you have provided it, thank you!

Note to slashdot editors: how about a special icon representing "spooge"? And can we vote stories into the "spooge" category? That'd be uncomplainingly spoogy cool!!

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Ceci n'est pas une signature

Re:This is only for Java apps? by __past__ · 2003-09-19 21:16 · Score: 3, Interesting

Sun recently started to use "Java" the way MS used to use ".NET", i.e. as a marketing term for anything new they released, whether it has anything to do with Java/.NET or not, technically.

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Programming can be fun again. Film at 11.

Regarding Sun's Linux strategy by ultrabot · 2003-09-19 21:17 · Score: 3, Interesting

From an article:

Also, let me really clear about our Linux strategy. We don't have one. We don't at all. We do not believe that Linux plays a role on the server. Period. If you want to buy it, we will sell it to you, but we believe that Solaris is a better alternative, that is safer, more robust, higher quality and dramatically less expensive in purchase price.

Obviously Sun is not "committed", but all in all, this bodes well for Linux: more desktop apps will be tested and developed specifically on Linux.

However, you can expect Sun to push the Linux solution for a while, utilizing the momentun Linux has (and Solaris doesn't), and as sudden "problems" with Linux appears, the don't really have motivation to fix the problems; rather, they suggest that the customers of their "Java Desktop" switch to Solaris-x86.

Also from the article, regarding the perception that Sun is being unethical in supporting SCO:

I can't do anything about the perception that's out there and to be blunt, I don't care as those people aren't going to drive our future--customers are.

So we don't matter, eh? The Open Source community are not your "customers"? Schwarz misses part of the point, in that techies are their customers, and quite a lot of techies are very Linux-sympathetic these days. Arrogance doesn't help anyone, either.

I dunno, but Schwarz comes out as quite an asshole in that article, and I can't really tell whether I wish Sun a great success with Mad Hatter. It is good for Linux and Open Standards and all, but Sun has the wrong attitude about the whole thing. They would do well to play a "nice guy" for a while (like they do/did with Open Office), it might occasionally pay off.

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Save your wrists today - switch to Dvorak

Java desktop for free by imag0 · 2003-09-19 21:21 · Score: 4, Interesting

Here's a *real* java desktop, free. Looks cool

http://www.jdistro.com/

Re:Java desktop for free by lewp · 2003-09-19 23:16 · Score: 4, Funny

That's really frightening.

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Game... blouses.

Re:Stop worshipping Sun already by __past__ · 2003-09-19 21:29 · Score: 2, Insightful

Sun takes open source software they haven't programmed

Hm, let's see. There's StarOffice, which they have not programmed, but simply bought, and then released as to the Open Source world as OpenOffice. Then there is Gnome, which they also haven't written themselves, only most of atk, some contributions to various libs all over the place from Pango to Gnome-UI, a lot of documentation and testing came from them. And there are things like NFS/NIS/PAM, which aren't directly relevant for the desktop, and the Linux versions tend to be rewrites based on their open specs, so that only their research and design directly helped the Linux world. So yes, I guess you are technically correct.

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Programming can be fun again. Film at 11.

Sun has been very good for Enterprise Open Source by Kunta+Kinte · 2003-09-19 21:30 · Score: 4, Insightful

It's disgraceful how much of the tech community keeps reproducing all propaganda that the impressive Sun hype machine keeps churning out.

It's disgraceful that people don't check they facts very labeling information propaganda.

Meanwhile, Sun sends millions of dollars in "license money" to SCO, and keeps spreading FUD about Linux to promote its own OS offering, Solaris.

True. But this is business kid. It's not black and white, good versus evil. Sun has a competing operating system that they've spent a lot of money in developing. They aren't going to concede the market without a fight. That's logical and to be expected.

Even Sun's own employees know that Java is a piece of crap,...

internalmemos.com? Your proof is from internalmemos.com? I take it you also read the Enquirer and Weekly World News to stay informed, don't you?

Yes, Java can be used for server applications (a claim which Java proponents ridiculuously uphold to demonstrate that Java is good technology -- if it couldn't, it would be quite useless, wouldn't it?), but so can Perl, Python, PHP, Ruby,....

This argument right here tells me you don't really know much about professional web application development.

J2EE is one of the biggest things pulling linux into the mid to large webapp/middleware market! Unfortunately, we don't have an application server that quite matches J2EE application servers in OS; except OS/J2EE based servers, of course. I wish people would try to write a few decent sized web applications before they decided that *they-favorite-language* was good enough for everyone.

Sun has partially funded Tomcat development for a while, also making tomcat the reference implementation for JSP. Those programming languages you mentioned are scripting languages, not web application servers. They don't provide much of the functionality true web application servers eg. Tomcat, JBoss, etc provide.

Sun bought StarOffice and released it as OpenOffice. Sun continues to fund OO/SO development. Sun put much needed people on the GNOME usuability project. Sun has been marketing Gnome to its customers, exposing it to thousands of conservative businesses who would never have looked at it otherwise. And Sun have probably done a lot more I can't remember right now.

The world is not separated clearly between good and evil. Get over it.

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Based on upvotes, Ageism is the only "-ism" Slashdotters care about and think isn't SJW

A tribute to Microsoft by master_p · 2003-09-19 21:31 · Score: 2, Funny

"My documents" ? "Network places" ? "My Computer" ? the taskbar ? the start button ? Either Microsoft got it right and we should all admit it or we should stop copying Microsoft because it sucks (what a dichotomy for Microsoft haters, such as Sun!!! from one side they are against Microsoft, from the other they copy Microsoft!!!)

By the way, Java is free. Why the Java Desktop is not free ? this is Linux, for Christ's sake.

Re:A tribute to Microsoft by ctid · 2003-09-19 21:58 · Score: 3, Insightful

(what a dichotomy for Microsoft haters, such as Sun!!! from one side they are against Microsoft, from the other they copy Microsoft!!!)

Perhaps it is other things about Microsoft that suck. For example: security, secret file formats, bloated and buggy applications etc.

By the way, Java is free. Why the Java Desktop is not free ? this is Linux, for Christ's sake.

Notwithstanding the non sequitur, Linux is free-as-in-speech, not free-as-in-beer. However, you can get Linux for free-as-in-beer if you just search for it on the web. It's perfectly simple to search for free linux downloads with google.

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Reality is defined by the maddest person in the room

Sun, Sco ... by sbranden · 2003-09-19 21:32 · Score: 4, Informative

I came to this article after reading what Sun think of Linux in this story. Really puts this marketing bullshit into perspective for me.

Re:This is only for Java apps? by smallpaul · 2003-09-19 21:42 · Score: 5, Informative

Here's what I found on Sun's site: "The software consists of a fully integrated client environment based on open source components and industry standards, including a GNOME desktop environment, StarOffice Office Productivity Suite, Mozilla browser, Evolution mail and calendar, Java 2 Standard Edition and a Linux operating system."

Translation: in no way, shape or form is this desktop written in Java. It is merely branding, the same way Microsoft brands a version of Windows "Windows .NET Server" and Visual Studio ".NET" in order to tie together their .NET brand.

Re:Not such a bad idea? by smallpaul · 2003-09-19 21:46 · Score: 4, Informative

The Java desktop is not written in Java and has almost nothing to do with java. It is Gnome. It will run on Windows when Gnome does. The Java name is just marketing. It has nothing to do with the underlying technology. The more accurate name for the "Java Desktop" is "Sun Linux". More information

$BIG_COMPANY announces "their desktop" .. so what? by Savage650 · 2003-09-19 21:54 · Score: 2, Interesting

Forget that review! What's the point in having a Desktop "your Mom and Pop will understand" when you're actually targeting the corporate market ("1000 Desktops administrated by a single IT worker")?

Sun is still hawking their "thin clients" model, just replacing proprietary hardware that no-one bought with commodity hardware that everyone is supposed to have (and a certain OS for i386 machines that (only?) Sun is entitled to use without fear of lawsuits, sez SCO...)

So, What's the real deal? Sun wants to capture the corporate desktop to keep their rapidly declining server business alive (Fat chance...). To reach that goal, they are now trying to "Embrace and Extend" Linux, even to the extreme of actively supporting SCO.

I dont think it's going to work. Sun should just crawl off to where the other dinosaurs went.

The bottom line - cost by skinfitz · 2003-09-19 22:08 · Score: 3, Funny

From the site:
Pricing
Q. How much does Java Desktop System sell for?
A.There are two available pricing options for Java Desktop System:

$100 / desktop / year. An OEM volume tier pricing schedule is also available.
$50 / employee / year for Sun Java Enterprise System customers.

So.. explain why anyone should spend silly amounts of money replacing the existing Windows and OSX machines just to have the honour of renting an OS which does almost exactly the same thing from Sun?

Re:The bottom line - cost by Cederic · 2003-09-19 22:48 · Score: 2, Insightful

Because of the bottom line - total cost.

$100 / year / desktop for Java Desktop System
+ 1 support employee per 1000 desktops

or

Windows XP licencing cost + Office XP licencing cost /desktop for the MS alternative
+ 5 support employees per 1000 desktops

You'd have to upgrade Windows/MS Office no more than once every 3-5 years (depending how good your discounts with MS are) to compete on the headline cost, and that ignores the support employee costs.

I'm sure there are a lot of other costs I've ignored (hardware, for instance) but even taking just two costs into account it's easy to see how the cost implications aren't quite so straightforward.

~Cederic
Re:The bottom line - cost by skinfitz · 2003-09-19 23:06 · Score: 4, Insightful

But I pay about $20 per desktop for WinXP and OfficeXP (inclusive)

Then there are the OSX machines at $60 a machine that would have to be thrown away.

Why is that so cheap? We are academic. Why is that important?

Because whatever we use is what students are exposed to & familiar with.

Microsoft and Apple know the value of this which is why they give us such hefty discounts - it will be interesting to see what Sun offer.

I think your comment about 1 support person for 1000 desktops is way off - what happens if that person is off sick or simply stuck in traffic? It is better to have many support people to create an overlap.

Besides that your 5:1 ratio for XP is way off too - there is no reason whatsoever one person could not admin 1000 XP machines with the right tools, but it would be a bad idea.

Then there is staff training - technicians working in academia are very low paid and as a result (in the UK at least - I cant speak for anywhere else although I imagine its similar) you really don't tend to get highly educated academically qualified people with degrees working as technicians (unless it's temporary or work experience.) so the skill sets they will apply for work with are what they are familiar with working with either at home, or at college.

Schools and Colleges simply do not have the money to pay for staff training or to hire qualified people. Even an MCSE will get you a much more highly paid job elsewhere.

That is the hegemony that needs to be broken to replace Windows and Mac on the desktop.

Re:Stop worshipping Sun already by Eloquence · 2003-09-19 22:09 · Score: 2, Insightful

If Sun can't get Java right on their own friggin' operating system, where can they? The Linux Java implementation was crappy for years until they finally got around to making it at least somewhat usable, but in any case, Java, at least in its JIT-compiled form, is completely unsuitable for serious desktop applications. OpenOffice isn't written in Java for a reason, but true to form for Sun, it's still slow as molasses.

Furthermore, given that Sun makes its money selling big iron, it seems to me that they have a vested interest in keeping Java slow and bloated (each JRE being more massive than the last).

Re:Sun has been very good for Enterprise Open Sour by Eloquence · 2003-09-19 22:26 · Score: 2, Informative

But this is business kid. It's not black and white, good versus evil.

Of course it's not. And I trust that you apply the same standards to Microsoft. But if you want to stop bad behavior from occurring, you should not support companies that practice it. Simple as this: By supporting Sun, you support SCO's battle against Linux. If you give them money, chances are that some of it goes directly into SCO's pockets. If you use their technology, you indirectly contribute to their bottom line.

Your proof is from internalmemos.com?

The authenticity of this memo has been well established and never denied by Sun.

This argument right here tells me you don't really know much about professional web application development.

I am well aware of the fact that Java is considered the development platform of choice for most ebusiness applications these days. So what? Most businesses still use Windows even though they together could save billions by switching to OSS on client and server and contributing to open source development. You yourself cite "conservative" companies, so don't act as if a company using a specific technology automatically validated said technology.

I wish people would try to write a few decent sized web applications

You mean like Slashdot, which is larger than 90% of these "professional applications", more reliable than your shitty JSP websites and hacked together by a few kids in Perl? The very site you are using would never have been possible in Java, because it never would have scaled to its present usage on the handful of low-end servers it is based on. Slashdot is a real-word application with impressive scalability and minimal implementation cost; this bullshit distinction between "professional" and non-professional application is nothing but close-minded "I get my paycheck for coding Java, so it's better" type thinking. How much have you done with Perl? How much have you done with Python? Have you even looked at Apache's powerful mod_perl 2.0 and CPAN's archive of modules for virtually anything you might ever need, updated every day by programmers from around the world and free to use? Have you looked at Perldoc, Perl-based object-oriented programming, Perl XML implementations ranging from XML::Simple to SAX and DOM parsers and so forth?

Sun bought StarOffice and released it as OpenOffice.

Because they see Microsoft as their arch-enemy and would love to be Microsoft. Once they have a significant market position with OpenOffice, they will cease supporting the open source version and make improvements available in the commercially marketed StarOffice only.

Sun put much needed people on the GNOME usuability project. Sun has been marketing Gnome to its customers

Because CDE, their own desktop environment, is such a piece of crap that anyone who spends more than 5 minutes with it leaves the room screaming or becomes clinically insane. Much like vi, really.

How many mouse buttons req'd ? by gellenburg · 2003-09-19 22:27 · Score: 4, Funny

Any desktop which requires the user to use more than one mouse button obviously can't be all that great. ;-)

what's new? by MikeFM · 2003-09-19 22:28 · Score: 3, Insightful

I don't really see anything new to this desktop. It's just Gnome cleaned up (the way many of us admins already have it for our users) with the ability to launch Java programs (which we can do anyway last timeI checked)? I didn't really see anything else described. I have no problem with Sun selling this (except for the stupid name).. it'll be good that someone finally figured out not to default with a stupid number of menu options and so forth.. but is there anything really news worthy? It sounds okay for normal users but I'm glad I don't have to use it. :)

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At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.

At least some competition by bizcoach · 2003-09-19 23:07 · Score: 2, Insightful

Java is ok, but I don't like Sun. Given that together with MS they help funding SCO's attacks on GNU/Linux, they're only a little less evil than MS. However, it's good news for GNU/Linux that MS gets serious competition. That makes it harder for them to extract a monopoly rent from the still strong market position, and it makes it much harder for them to shape the future of the IT world according to their desires.

whats the diff ? by hnz · 2003-09-19 23:14 · Score: 2, Insightful

I dont get it, why should I use it ? its just linux with Gnome. I get the update and patches faster when I compile the stuff myselve. And what will happen when XIMIAN/NOVEL change there Evolution Licence ?
Me Dont think the world is waiting for this.

Re:Sun has been very good for Enterprise Open Sour by Eloquence · 2003-09-19 23:17 · Score: 3, Insightful

With enough effort/resources you can make *any* language and runtime scale.

And we all know that Slashdot has infinite resources at its disposal. Look, this site has been hacked together by a few geeks in their spare time. It scales well not because of the amount of effort and resources invested in its deployment, but because the platform is simply lightning fast -- there are no unnecessary libraries and APIs, instead, the webserver API is accessed directly using mod_perl. Database access is nevertheless not tied to a specific DB -- without any effort whatsoever, Perl DBI provides a transparent and fast interface to a large number of DBs.

For example, generating static pages from dynamic data at short intervals and serving those instead,

In Slashcode, old pages are archived. New ones are generated dynamically. This is necessary because of the rate of modifications.

If Slashdot used JSP or ASP.NET they'd be able to significantly decrease the load on their MySQL database

Not only is this statement unsupported, it is also irrelevant. According to the FAQ, Slashdot uses a single MySQL server and 8 webservers. This shows clearly where the major load is.

And their performance suffers as well.

Also an unsupported statement. I and many other people I know use Slashdot to check their connection speed because it is almost always highly responsive.

This article is prematurely hyping the product by brundlefly · 2003-09-20 00:18 · Score: 4, Interesting

For something as complex as a desktop OS, it's virtually impossible to have "usability" without usage, and to-date this OS has no users to speak of.

Show me even a meager 500,000 users who consider the usability of this to be on par with WinXP or MacOSX and then you'll have a story. Otherwise this is just PRWire disguised as a lab study.

Good Review, But Still Smells of Linux Elitism by reallocate · 2003-09-20 00:28 · Score: 5, Interesting

It's very good to see Sun launch a a Linux distribution that won't make repel adults in horror, but Gulker perpetuates at least one of the abiding and unfortunate errors of many Linux supporters.

Contrary to the linkage made by the review, ease of use is not synonymous with "dumbing down". Ease of use does not mean hiding capabilities. It simply means what it says: easy to use.

Example: Creating a "Documents" directory and suggesting users sore all their documents there makes a system easier to use. Nothing frces a user to do that; no capability is lost. If a user wants to track through the file system and store files in other locations, nothing prevents that. A "Documents" directory is based on the same principle as the "etc" and "home" directories. Both provide a suggested place to store files that share certain characteristics. If using a "Documents" directory is for dummies, why don't we see smart admins storing configuration files all over the file system? Surely, anyone smart enough to use Unix doesn't need help finding files?

Other examples exist, but the perpetuation of the bogus ease of use/dumbing down linkage remains an ugly theme of the Linux community.

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-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"

Why Java? by xynopsis · 2003-09-20 00:41 · Score: 3, Interesting

IMO, Java on the desktop is not very good. I see no reason why someone should code apps in java, with the exception perhaps of the great web app, when the the free Qt toolkit and the much more mature and robust C++ exists.

Multi-platform support (*nix, windows, embedded,mac), native GUI, networking, threads, you name it QT almost has it all. In fact I don't see any advantage in using these semi-interpreted languages (including m$ C#) to the native C++/QT combo. Garbage collection? I find creating objects with QObject parents so convenient! No more leaks. Write once run anywhere? QT does that with a simple recompile from a single source. Please enlighten me if I have missed something. But right now you have to pry C++ from my cold dead hands to make me switch over. C++ plus QT is C++ on steroids.

Disclaimer I don't work for Trolltech. I just happen to find QT so damn nice!

..rivals usability... by DrWhizBang · 2003-09-20 00:54 · Score: 3, Funny

And in other news, the Ford Focus now rivals the Chev Cavalier for speed.

Next reporter, please...

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Schrodinger's cat is either dead or really pissed off...

There are two desktop markets by dilute · 2003-09-20 01:16 · Score: 2, Interesting

And this addresses NEITHER ONE OF THEM.

It's not open enough for techies and it's too wierd for the rest of the market.

This seems pretty pointless. Who financed it?

Xandros has been doing this for months by KRzBZ · 2003-09-20 01:23 · Score: 3, Informative

I find it odd that few of the tech press have picked up on it, and even fewer people have taken notice of the consistently good reviews it gets for this type of application, but Xandros Linux has *already done* what Sun is trying to do, and they have had their product out for 10 months now.

If you are a intermediate/advanced Linux user, Xandros probably won't interest you for personal use, but as a way to get win refugees started, it beats every other distro hands down (including the perennial favorite "newbie" distro, 'Drake). The sole purpose of the distro is to make win refugees be able to get using Linux with the least amount of pain and adaptation possible.

Xandros V.1 is Debian Woody based, uses older software libs, desktop uses KDE2.2, has *excellent* networking abilities with win shares and other b0xen (using the proprietary Xandros File Manager (XFM)), and has a simplified "Start" menu with 1 "best of breed" app for each task a user may need to perform. Hardware recognition on install is great, it picked up my hotplugged Archos MP3 player, Canon camera, USB mouse, etc etc with no problems post-install. It is intended for the "enterprise desktop", with stability being a prime requisite for any software which comes with the distro. Xandros V.2 (based on much newer software) is in beta testing right now. Individual prices - The "Deluxe" version (US$99) comes bundled with CrossOver Office and PlugIns, so that no msOffice or browser functionality is lost in the switch to Linux. The "Standard" version, without the costly CrossOver software, is US$40.

So, if you can't or don't want to wait for the Java desktop to be ready, try the Linux desktop that is already doing what Sun is hoping to do.

I don't work for Xandros, I do want to see them succeed - they understand what is needed to help migrate people to Linux.

It looks like Sun knows that too, they're just late to the game, IMO.

Multisession CDs insanely complex?! by serviscope_minor · 2003-09-20 01:38 · Score: 2, Informative

You claim that multisession CDs are insanely complex on OSX, and cite an article to prove this. Well, I read the article (rare for a /.'er, I know, but I did it anyway). If you find that insanely complex, then I can't imagine how you've ever burned a CD on any system. The instructions read:

1 Get stuff.
2 burn on CD.
3 repeat 1-2 remembering to check the "allow multiple burn box" (ie remember to check the "allow multisession" box).
4 Press a button to finish.

That didn't look too hard, much less ``insanely complex'',

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SJW n. One who posts facts.

Hmm... Lets take a closer look by LINM · 2003-09-20 01:51 · Score: 3, Informative

I went through the article and pulled out the various criteria that the desktop was under and list them below:

Pleasant looking at launch
Documents folder in the user's home directory
Opened with a view of all data repositories
Theme pervasive
Star Office 7

Unfortunately, the review was based largely on cosmetic appearances. Though important, they will certainly not cut it for an enterprise roll-out.

The one functionality related comment is on Star Office 7. Though the OOo team has done some great work, and I think it is a fantastic suite for home users, I do not believe that Star Office (or OOo) are ready to repalace MS Office in the work place any time soon. Why? Just a few reasons: file compatibility, macros, driver support, presentation tool, etc. etc.

Furthermore, there are several key feature sets that the article ignores that are critical for an enterprise desktop rollout:
---Networking - can this thing jump onto the company's windows network plug and play or do you have to go learn Samba3?
---Application Compatibility - the company will likely have legacy or windows apps they need to run. Does Sun desktop do anything for them?
---Mail server - I know they are using Gnome, but does Sun have any deal with Novell (current home of Ximian) to let it talk to Exchange?
---Installer - Did he try to install it? If you are going to have to put it on 2000 desktops at a company, I hope that works very very well.
---Distribution - What distribution is this residing on. This could make a huge difference in how well the thing works. Red Hat and dependancy hell? No thanks.

I think if you take a look around, Xandros probably has by far the best desktop for corporate use. It solve all of the above issues and is tremendously easy to use. You could also check out Suse, though I think it will be lacking in a few areas.

I want to see MS come down, but this brief write up doesn't have me convinced the Sun Desktop herlds in a new era...

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Hunger is the best sauce.

Re:Java or GNOME by ctid · 2003-09-20 01:55 · Score: 2, Interesting

It is Sun's Linux distribution with their own Gnome-based desktop.

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Reality is defined by the maddest person in the room

it's Gnome by penguin7of9 · 2003-09-20 02:11 · Score: 4, Interesting

Calling this thing a "Java desktop" is rather deceptive. Sun took the Gnome desktop, bundled it with a Java runtime and JavaCard authentication, made some cosmetic changes, and then just called it a "Java desktop". Pretty much all the applications, all the policy decisions, all the behavior, and all the functionality are Gnome's. If this is a "great desktop", then so must Gnome be.

In seven years, Java desktop application use is virtually non-existent. Sun has already tried and failed to create and establish a Java-based desktop with Java applications. So, what do they do? They take a successful open source desktop written mostly in C and C++ and call it a "Java desktop". I think that speaks volumes about the suitability of Sun Java and Swing for writing desktop applications and about how desparate Sun is getting. I think it also shows a disrespect Sun has for open source, despite a veneer of support and opportunistic open source licensing of some of their products (mostly in an attempt to harm competitors or to prop up bad Sun standards).

From a practical point of view, this won't matter. Basically, what this really says is that Sun is replacing CDE and OpenWindows with Gnome on their machines, and that they are shipping Java along with it (surprise). Sun had already announced that they were going to do that.

What will be really interesting is whether Sun will start shipping Mono with that, since it looks increasingly likely that at least some Gnome applications will be written in Mono (just like some Gnome applications are written in Python, Perl, and C++).

The Sun breakdance and zigzag by theolein · 2003-09-20 02:18 · Score: 3, Insightful

I read about this a while ago and at first thought Sun had gone the whole hog and turned out something like jDistro i.e. a completely Java based desktop environment, but then discovered it was YALD (Yet Another Linux Distro) albeit a clean one, from the same company that bashes Linux one day because they're pissed that it's taking customers away from the hallowed Solaris, and pushing it like crazy the next in an attempt to actually market StarOffice and grab a piece of the Linux pie.

The distro, because this is what it is, will certainly gather a few customers that want 24/7 desktop support and don't mind paying for it, but they're going to have an uphill battle against established players like RedHat and SuSE in the enterprise and Debian and Gentoo in the small space. There really isn't much room for YALD these days.

Sun would almost assuredly have preferred to have done all this on Solaris, but no one is interested anymore, given Sun's haphazard moves in Solarisx86 and the increasing popularity of Linux in governments and large businesses.

What is Sun's problem? Easy, they make excellent servers and a robust stable OS, but their pricing and their totally insane one day on next day off commitment to TotD (Trend of the Day) and comments by no less than McNealy and co. only serve to make potential customers even more wary. i.e. no clear long term goals!

What could Sun have done instead of this YALD? They should have taken an intelligent risk a while ago and comitted to making Linux robust, fast and scalable on their own good quality hardware. This is the route that IBM has gone and it is paying off bigtime for IBM. They should have realised that proprietry *nixes in the server room are on the way out, due to costs alone (OS, propritry support and application porting costs)

Instead Sun's McNealy likes to think like SCO's McBride one day (All your IP are belong to us) and like Steve Jobs the next (My desktop is better than yours)

What he hasn't noticed is that Apple has taken a very consistent long term approach to establishing OSX and Apple hardware as popular amongst consumers and design pros first and slowly amongst enterprise CEOs, CIOs etc second (Hey, WTF, Oracle runs on that snappy XServe?) with the byproduct of being immensely popular amongst *nix Sysadmins (The number of Linux and Solaris Sysadmins running around with Powerbooks and iBooks is amazing).

As for this YALD being more usable than WindowsXP, this must be a joke, right? Windows and Microsoft have a terrible security record and a bad image as wife and market abusers, but they have a huge marketshare, almost all of the desktop applications and an acceptable and responsive Desktop UI. For all its problems Windows is here to stay for a long time (and copy-paste actually works)

Sun should stick to what it does best, and avoid running off into uncharted waters every second day.

Still missing the point by ZoneGray · 2003-09-20 02:27 · Score: 5, Insightful

From the article:

>> Java Desktop System could be dropped into most non-technical enterprises in places where general productivity was the mission,

What he misses (like nearly all of the Linux On The Corporate Desktop advocates) is that nearly every small business uses some sort of vertical-market application as their central IS system. There are packages for real estate agents, beverage wholesalers, dental offices, auto repair shops, property management, and for practically every other business you can think of. And nearly all of them run on Windows.

Every small business I've ever worked with uses something like this, and that's always the obstacle to having such companies even consider Linux.

Perhaps as more of these are moved to an HTTP-based architecture, the doors will open for Linux on the business desktop, but until then, the real lock-in isn't MS Office but the zillions of vertical-market apps that run on Windows.

$100/desktop/year!!! by EMR · 2003-09-20 03:35 · Score: 2, Informative

They are charging That much for it too.. That's rediculous.. The only "commercial" products in it are Java which they give away for free, and the sun one connector... Pricing FAQ

speculation: positioning "java desktop" for future by flacco · 2003-09-20 04:30 · Score: 2, Insightful

java would have a lot more friends on the desktop if it had a shareable JVM so you didn't have to lug in another multi-megabyte VM every time you started the smallest utility.

Maybe this is what Sun is positioning this desktop for: future versions fo the JVM might have this ability.

while we're at it, a lightweight servlet engine for lightweight desktop web applications would be quite nice too.

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pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.

Morons on both sides of the argument by spitzak · 2003-09-20 04:48 · Score: 4, Insightful

1. The "X clipboard" that most people are talking about is NOT the "clipboard" from Windows. It is DRAG & DROP!!!! With the huge advantage that you can move windows around, raise and lower them, and close them, before you drop. Basically selecting something is the start of a drag, and clicking the middle mouse button is a drop. It is EXACTLY the same (the normal complaint that you can't select the text to replace? Try doing the same action in Windows using drag & drop) Therefore X invented drag & drop first, something Microsofties are loath to admit.

X's problem is that they failed to provide any kind of clipboard, thinking this drag & drop was sufficient. This led a lot of idiots to thinking the drag & drop WAS the clipboard, and stupid things like adding cut & copy actions modify the currently dragged item. When people started doing this correctly (all Gnome and KDE and most other toolkit based programs do) by putting the clipboard into a different buffer, people then complained about that (look at one of the other letters who said exactly this, apparently that person is too stupid to realize that if Ctrl+X modified the selected text, then selecting text would also modify the Ctrl+X text and thus completely defeat the purpose of the clipboard).

Microsoft is 100% to blame for the fact that some programs use Alt and some use Ctrl for the shortcuts. When the GUI programs were being developed, they copied the Mac. Now LOOK at a Mac, and check where the Command key is. Nobody in their right mind would use any key other than Alt to emulate that. But Microsoft is not in their right mind. Almost all MSDOS programs and most early Windows programs were "inconsistent" too and used Alt instead of the Microsoft standard of Ctrl.

If you discount old character-terminal programs like Emacs and VI (which both incidentally run on Windows and are just as "inconsistent" there) then I have never seen an X program that uses anything other than Ctrl+XCV or Alt+XCV for cut & copy & paste. There are however a lot of programs that mess with the drag & drop buffer instead of the clipboard for these actions, so I guess there are 4 arrangments.

As for data other than Text, well here Microsoft is doing a lot better. Interestingly enough, both X and Windows have almost identical mechanisms for sending data other than text (lists of atoms identifying what types are available, and the dropped-on program chooses the type to get, and the called program converts to that type). Where Microsoft was smart and X was idiots is that Microsoft ASSIGNED some symbols, such as one for a BMP image. Stupid X consortium thought these assignments would be worked out by users and so now all X has is about a dozen ways to identify text and nothing else. Fortunatly it looks like the whole idea is going to be scrapped on both systems, to a system by which the dragged data is either plain text, or a URL identifying where the data is stored. This has the huge advantage that programs can reuse code that reads/writes files to interpret the dropped data, and programs that cannot understand the URL can easily run other programs that do. Because of this massive change it may be possible for X to catch up.

KDE? by SyntheticTruth · 2003-09-20 05:11 · Score: 3, Insightful

I'm sorry, but I use that kind of copy-n-paste, drag-n-drop "innovations" every day in KDE. This is one of the *main* reasons I use KDE on my desktop, because the KDE apps work together so well.

Granted, it does not work so well from a KDE app to, say, some independant GTK app, and vice-versa. KDE does *not* feel kludgy to me, and I've used just about every damn Desktop/Window Manager that you can possible get and compile for Linux, as well as SGI's 4DWM on the old Irix machine that sits on my desk.

All it would take is for the KDE folks and the GNOME folks to sit down and implement a shared C-n-P and D-N-D functionality, which if I remember correctly, might actually be happening.

So, to sum it up, I think a Linux desktop *is* ready to tackle any other OS out there, if it is a unified desktop. If you built it from ad hoc pieces, then I would agree with you. I just don't see any major distro doing that though.

Where to begin... by b-baggins · 2003-09-20 05:11 · Score: 4, Insightful

Typical Linux Geek thinking ease-of-use = dumbing down and that a good interface means pretty icons.

Ease of use means making the computer work the way PEOPLE think, not forcing people to work the way COMPUTERS think.

Linux geeks and other developers, who have been conditioned to think like the computer because of the work they do, have the mistaken notion that advanced computer user means a user who has learned to force the natural human way of doing things into the artificial machine way a computer does things.

Any interface that doesn't force this paradigm is "dumbed down."

The truth is, the Linux geek has simply been conditioned to do things the difficult way, not the natural way. Designing the interface to do things the natural way is not dumbing it down, it's making the Linux Geek's paradigm obsolete. Of course, the Linux Geek doesn't like this, so in a fit of human ego, he looks his nose down on anything that points out the stupidity of his position (working the way the computer demands; being the tool of the computer), and calls it "dumbing down."

The Sun Java Desktop follows this same, stupid convention.

The start menu is in the wrong place. In cultures that read left to right, top to bottom, the most important area of focus is always the upper left corner, followed by the upper right corner, then the lower right corner. The area of least importance, that takes the most conscious effort to locate, and feels the most unnatural, is the lower left corner. So guess where Sun, Windows, and other Linux copycats put the most important UI widget in the whole interface?

Next, the start menu is packed with long lists of applications in tons of different categories. To the Linux Geek, this is heaven, because it forces him to think like a computer. To a human, this is unnatural. The human mind works in small groups. The start menu should be sparse, with a few, general categories, containing a few applications. Lists should have no more than five items, with an option to dig deeper. You make the detail a conscious choice to the user, not throw it in his face. That's the Windows paradigm: Let's see how much crap we can throw on the screen because it proves our program is POWERFUL!!

And, finally, the reviewer totally ignores the most important UI elements for ease-of-use, which shows he doesn't get it...still.

Does the UI still use the web browser paradigm for file location? This is asinine. The web browser paradigm is based on pages of information. The folder/file structure of a hard drive is designed around a, well, folder, folder contents model. Using a page serving paradigm to locate items in a filing cabinet is stupid, and continuing to insist on it is asinine because it is unnatural, feels unnatural, and requires the user to expend too much effort to find what he wants.

What about configuring items in the start menu? How easy is it to add things? Remove things? No mention of this.

What about installing applications. Does the user have to deal with /usr/share, /usr/bin, and crap like that, or are applications put in a folder called Programs?

What about account management? Can the GUI allow root commands for installing software the way OS X does, by authenticating in a dialog, or does the user have to think like a computer, and change his identity just to install a program?

This review can basically be summed up as: This is a cool desktop because, hey, it's got a cool look, all the apps follow that look, there's a documents folder on the desktop for morons who don't know any better, and the start menu is so full of crap, it's unusable.

Sorry, but Linux is STILL not ready for the desktop. Go back to OS X, study it again, find out that it's NOT Aqua and throbbing buttons that make it a great GUI, and try again.

--
You can tell a great deal about the character of a man by observing those who hate him.

Re:Not customers by Tony · 2003-09-20 05:23 · Score: 2, Informative

Good point.

And many of us *are* their customers. Until recently, we were excusively a Sun shop, with Sun hardware in the server room, and X terminals and Sun Rays on the desktop. The Sun Ray is an excellent product, but Sun has priced it at $500 a terminal, without monitor. For $100 less, I can get a computer with Linux pre-installed that'll integrate in with our system just fine.

(Granted, that doesn't address management; Sun Rays are truly plug-and-play, and have some cool features, like the mobile card thingy.)

However.

We have been moving to MS-Windows on the desktop. (Not my choice: I'd go Linux or BSD or even the HURD, of course, because I want to control my computing future.) We have been replacing some Sun systems with Linux in the server room. Our purchase of Sun equipment has dropped dramatically.

And after seeing the way Sun treats FOSS (and by extension, FOSS developers), I think I am going to encourage we move away from Sun completely.

I will make a prediction: Sun will go the way of SGI. That is, a niche player with a dwindling customer base, which makes good hardware that very few people really use.

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Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.

Partisanship by selfdiscipline · 2003-09-20 05:34 · Score: 2, Insightful

I'm a PC user, and have been for many years. I haven't used Macs much at all, but the few recent times I have, I've been very pleased.
If I wanted to buy a powerful, stable system that I didn't have to spend much time tinkering with, it would be a Mac. The only reasons I have a PC running linux right now is because it's cheap and I like to tinker.
For the average desktop user now, I'd recommend the Mac. The only thing that you'll loose by getting a Mac is the convenience of being able to run all software made for windows. In exchange for this, you'll get pretty close compatability with other *nix flavors, which means you can benefit from the majority of open-source software out there.
If you have to choose between PC/Windows, MAC/OSX, definitely go with the latter.

--

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Incite and flee.

This should be what the story is about by Cokelee · 2003-09-20 06:00 · Score: 2, Insightful

Fuck Sun.

They suck.

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Java Desktop System Rivals XP, OSX in Usability

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