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Apple to Fix Security Holes in Jaguar

Simon Cozens writes "Yesterday's unsubstantiated report that Apple is refusing to supply security upgrades to Jaguar turns out to be untrue; Apple told MacCentral they will be fixing the bugs turned up by @stake. Next conspiracy, please!"

297 comments

  1. Well hell by mojowantshappy · · Score: 4, Funny

    I didn't see this comming at all! Who would have thought they would be supporting their own products.

    --

    This page was generated by a Barrel of Circus Midgets, and that is the way I like it!!!

    1. Re:Well hell by feldsteins · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Mac fans can't win on these stories. First an alarmist article claiming that they are "forcing" paid upgrades by not fixing security holes in existing systems. Hundreds of Apple-bashing posts later, it comes out that they are indeed patching the existing systems. You come on here to point this out and say "see? They ARE fixing it!" and someone comes behind you and says "big fucking deal! this is what everyone else would do!"

      Following Apple-related discussions on Slashdot is like riding on a bus with no steering: it careens onto the right shoulder, heads back toward the middle, only to screetch onto the left shoulder, back toward the middle...

      --
      You like your Macintosh better than me, don't you Dave? Dave? Can you hear me Dave?
    2. Re:Well hell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Riiight. You ever look at how Microsoft is represented compared to Apple?

    3. Re:Well hell by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 1

      Perhaps that is because you're listening to everyone on Slashdot. Many of the assholes posting yesterday aren't posting today, and vice versa.

      Sure, between both of them, it careens. So ignore morons. In that last story, many of the highest rated posts were people smacking them down. Don't worry about it.

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
    4. Re:Well hell by morelife · · Score: 0, Troll

      Following Apple-related discussions on Slashdot is like riding on a bus with no steering

      Well said. To boot, making any true comment about Mac performance or Apple's performance as a company will get you modded Troll in a heartbeat by the Mac lurkers who think they're technologists.

    5. Re:Well hell by blixel · · Score: 1

      discussions on Slashdot are like riding on a bus with no steering: it careens onto the right shoulder, heads back toward the middle, only to screetch onto the left shoulder, back toward the middle...

      Are you just now figuring that out?

    6. Re:Well hell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Man, I wanna meta-mod this Funny. Ha!

    7. Re:Well hell by Haeleth · · Score: 1

      If you think the Apple discussions are bad, it's obvious you don't read the BSD ones very often.* I mean, at least in the Apple posts you can't predict the exact wording of the trolls...

      * Yes, I know OS X is a BSD. I'm talking about the Sections here on Slashdot.

    8. Re:Well hell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fact that this got modded down is perfect evidence of the fanaticism of Mac users. It is a perfectly legitimate post and yet it is the only one in the thread modded down because it wasn't towing the pro-apple line. Don't worry. You'll get yours in the meta-mod end.

    9. Re:Well hell by Pinky · · Score: 1

      Weeeeeeeeeee........ That's what makes it fun!

      Ooooooh, an anonymous coward just posted an insightfull string of condescending vugarities! Gotta go!

    10. Re:Well hell by bursch-X · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. the parent's parent was generalizing on Mac users and stupid. I might as well say all Jews tend to be greedy and all Black people tend to be lazy. Complete nonsense.

      --
      There are two rules for success:
      1. Never tell everything you know.
    11. Re:Well hell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I might as well say all Jews tend to be greedy and all Black people tend to be lazy.

      Yes.

    12. Re:Well hell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mac lurkers who think they're technologists. :D

      Thanks, "morelife"!

      As an engineer, physician and historian, seeing Mac users discuss technology is like seeing children playing doctor or negroes celebrating "kwanzaa".

      Cute, but it'd be devastating to grant them any credibility.

    13. Re:Well hell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That would be what "tend to" means. I didn't say that ALL mac fans are like that. The funny thing about generalizations is that they are generally true. By the way - you proved my point with your comment - way to go.

  2. Damn straight by admiralfrijole · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Of course Apple is going to fix them, they still support the 10.2 Server, so they have to...

    Damn Windows zealota making shit up...

    --
    e to the pi i plus one equals zero
    1. Re:Damn straight by chef_raekwon · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      either that, or they received a lot of words from angry sysadmins/users.(after reading that they wouldnt patch)

      and decided to patch.

      --
      We're like rats, in some experiment! -- George Costanza
    2. Re:Damn straight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yup, that's it.
      Bravo.

    3. Re:Damn straight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not everything does necessary have to be evil. Oh, and get a life.

    4. Re:Damn straight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, this is flamebait, but the bashing of Windows users isn't? Give me a break.

    5. Re:Damn straight by jdog1016 · · Score: 1

      Actually, if you read the recent messages on bugtraq, there are a lot of people that have been very concerned that Apple really was not going to patch their OS. No one made up anything, people were just speculating based on the circumstances.

    6. Re:Damn straight by pudge · · Score: 1

      Of course Apple is going to fix them, they still support the 10.2 Server, so they have to...

      Are you implying Mac OS X 10.3 Server is not available?

    7. Re:Damn straight by chef_raekwon · · Score: 1

      So, this is flamebait, but the bashing of Windows users isn't? Give me a break.

      yes, isnt it amazing how the truth hurts people so much, they have to mod down my post. reality stings like alcohol in a cut. and when people start to realize that most corporations are "REACTIVE" as opposed to "PROACTIVE", they will realize the truth in that post.

      Cheers. Its Friday, SMILE!!!

      --
      We're like rats, in some experiment! -- George Costanza
    8. Re:Damn straight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What do you expect? It's my personal oppinion that @stake has now sold out, if you understand what I mean by that, as well you should after the last few incidents involving them (e.g. the fellow who was fired for calling Windows 'insecure' ...)

      Maybe it's just that they don't want to make MicroSoft mad, but...

    9. Re:Damn straight by Randy+Wang · · Score: 1

      Just how does saying that something is still supported imply that its successor doesn't exist?

      --
      --- Egads, I glow in the dark!
    10. Re:Damn straight by pudge · · Score: 1

      Just how does saying that something is still supported imply that its successor doesn't exist?

      I dunno, how does Mac OS X Server 10.2 being supported imply that they must fix Mac OS X 10.2?

  3. Yesterday's bickering only mindless speculation by danigiri · · Score: 4, Funny

    Definitely Apple deserves more credit and unlike other companies, the benefit of the doubt until official statements are made.

    1. Re:Yesterday's bickering only mindless speculation by Trigun · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't think that Apple deserves more or less credit than any other company. The same goes for the benefit of the doubt. The only thing that they deserve is us to wait for verification before villianizing the company.

      Apple has not signed up as a Templar knight any more than Microsoft has sold its collective soul to the devil.

    2. Re:Yesterday's bickering only mindless speculation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not when they're charging ridiculous prices for hardware!

    3. Re:Yesterday's bickering only mindless speculation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As an 18th generation knights templar I take offense to that remark you insensitive clod.

    4. Re:Yesterday's bickering only mindless speculation by Trigun · · Score: 1

      Get back to work, Mr. Jobs. Roleplay time is over, and you're starting to piss off the shareholders.

    5. Re:Yesterday's bickering only mindless speculation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All thing are exactly the same as all other things.

    6. Re:Yesterday's bickering only mindless speculation by CmdrTortilla · · Score: 1

      Well, where is the patch?

    7. Re:Yesterday's bickering only mindless speculation by bursch-X · · Score: 1

      Their G5 dualies are about 1000$ cheaper than any comparable product. That's really ridiculously cheap.

      --
      There are two rules for success:
      1. Never tell everything you know.
    8. Re:Yesterday's bickering only mindless speculation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      have you any idea how dam evel the templars where?

      I do i went to knights templar school (baldock harts. uk )

      never will you find a more evel bunch of .. urm ... oh teachers ... maybe

  4. Of course they were... by jason.hall · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Apple would have been 100% insane if they were to leave people out in the cold, who bought their operating system just a week ago!!

    1. Re:Of course they were... by swtaarrs · · Score: 1, Informative

      Wrong. The people they would've left behind are NOT the people who just bought Panther, it's the people with Jaguar and earlier, which came out many months ago.

    2. Re:Of course they were... by jason.hall · · Score: 1

      We're on the same page. People, conceivably, could have bought Jaguar just a week or two ago - Apple certainly isn't going to leave them out in the cold.

    3. Re:Of course they were... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whoever bought it a week ago was a moron. And if it was on new hardware, they'd be able to get the upgrade for free.

  5. Wha! by TheVidiot · · Score: 5, Funny

    Conspiracy! And slashdotters believed it? Un-be-lievable!

    1. Re:Wha! by Gandalfar · · Score: 1

      You're new here aren't you?

    2. Re:Wha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's called sarcasm. Are you new here? Ah yes, I see that you are newer than the person you responded to.

      Nice going newbie fucktard.

    3. Re:Wha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh, I believe you need to work on joke detection as well, numbnuts.

    4. Re:Wha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "It's called sarcasm"

      Correction: karma-whoring

    5. Re:Wha! by brre · · Score: 2, Funny
      un-be-lievable

      I do not think that word means what you think it means.

    6. Re:Wha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Un-be-lievable!

      You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

  6. Pfft! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Yeah well... well... ok I was proved wrong that time... but what about the security problems in System 7 huh huh huh Apple? I don't see THAT coming up as frontpage slashdot news do I?! Where's our fixes? I DEMAND A NEW SYSTEM ENABLER!

    it's a joke people :P

    1. Re:Pfft! by Amiga+Lover · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure Apple have much motivation to fix bugs going back to a system that was released nearly 13 years ago now.

      Even a bug that allowed you to drop to a shell with root access in 7.x wouldn't get much press. It's not like a half percent share of 3% of the marketplace is enough machines to cause a worry for the world.

      There's probably more monkeys at typewriters churning out shakespeare

    2. Re:Pfft! by raodin · · Score: 1

      Too bad there IS no root or shell in 7.x.. or 9 or earlier. :) Any user (unless you're running some add-on, like At-Ease) can do anything to the system. Mac OS prior to X was in no way a multiuser system. It was also fairly secure because there just wasn't anything to break into.

  7. Good to hear by AvantLegion · · Score: 4, Interesting
    There's no question people were gratuitously jumping the gun on the last story, but it's good to hear official confirmation that the fixes will be made available for Jaguar. There would not have been a story here at all if not for nonsense speculation.

    However, the story makes reference to Jaguar specifically, but what about OS X releases before that?

    1. Re:Good to hear by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that was funny. whenever MS says 'going to fix', people jump up and down and scream about stuff that 'never happens'. but Apple says 'going to fix', and you all sit back and say it iss 'good to hear'. pfft. whatever. there ain't really a decent OS maker on this old bucket of dirt, anyway.

    2. Re:Good to hear by AvantLegion · · Score: 1
      If Microsoft fixed their problems immediately after finding them, maybe people wouldn't be so critical.

      However, this is not even close to being the case.

    3. Re:Good to hear by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The real story is, how long have these holes existed, and why doesn't Apple have patches out for them yet. People rag on MS if the patches aren't out that day. No patches for how many months now from Apple?

    4. Re:Good to hear by AvantLegion · · Score: 1
      Lame attempt at an argument.

      The problem with Microsoft is that they sit on the problems for long periods of time - not after they're discovered, but often only after they're exploited, do we see a fix.

      Apple is not waiting.

      See the difference, AC?

    5. Re:Good to hear by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, how long do you support old OSes with security updates and bug fixes in order to be "fair"? What's a fair deal and what's a raw deal in the area of OS support?

  8. *GASP*! by ChuckleBug · · Score: 2, Funny

    Panther, Apple's latest operating system, was not affected by the security issues outlined by @Stake -- the flaws only affect Mac OS X 10.2.8 and lower.

    This PROVES it! Apple has NO INTENTION of fixing these egregious bugs in Panther! How is Apple ever going to be taken seriously in [echo]THE ENTERPRISE[/echo] when all they care about are legacy customers?!?!?!?!

    1. Re:*GASP*! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I doubt they'll be taken seriously in The Enterprise until they have a good enough text-to-speech voice that sounds like Majel Barret.

  9. Microsoft supporters by bwaynef · · Score: 1

    now have no footing to stand on. At least not if their argument was "Apple does it and is praised, if M$ does it they get hammered, whats up?" Anyway, I'm glad to see corporate reliability and responsibility in the industry

  10. Re:Really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And if that were the case, we'd still be waiting on Windows 95 to this day....

  11. were they always going to? by dirk · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Now the real question is whether they told @stake they weren't going to fix them and changed their mind after the because of all the talk about it. It is as wrong to assume they were always going to fix it as it is to assume they weren;t going to fix it. I would tend to believe they told @stake that, and then when word got out and everyone screamed, they changed their minds right quick.

    --

    "Information wants to be expensive" - Stewart Brand, the same guy who said "Information wants to be free"
    1. Re:were they always going to? by Llywelyn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually I would tend to think that someone who has nothing to do with the decision process might have told someone at @stake something which vaguely resembled that there were no plans for it. @stake and company spun the information accordingly.

      Whether Apple had any prior plans? Their track record says "yes," though there is no way we are ever going to find out one way or the other.

      Now can you please put the tinfoil away? It's making a horrible sound.

      --
      Integrate Keynote and LaTeX
    2. Re:were they always going to? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      I just go on Apple's past performance. After OSX 10.2 was released out there were still security updates released for 10.0/10.1

      After OSX 10.2 was released, actually, there were even updates for MacOS 9.

      Apple's past record for support of older systems is a stronger indication of their intent than the ramblings of any site, publication or group of users.

    3. Re:were they always going to? by masonbrown · · Score: 0, Troll

      It may seem like Apple leaves users out in the cold, but the way I see it is different. What Apple does is introduce new must-have technology, thus encouraging people to upgrade. When that newer tech isn't back-ported to a previous system, people feel left behind. All of a sudden, in light of the new improved shiny goodness the minor stability and security updates are often met with cries of "if they updated why don't they just give me too?"

      Perfect example would be the old iPod versus the new iPod. Some people bought old iPods shortly before the new ones were released. Yeah, there have been updates. But they didn't add features like On-The-Go playlists, or games, or any of the other little goodies. So therefore the owners of the older iPods feel abandoned since they aren't getting any cool updates, just routine updates.

    4. Re:were they always going to? by kalidasa · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, let's see, @Stake is the same company that only a few weeks ago fired Dan Geer for that article on the Microsoft monoculture (http://news.com.com/2100-1009_3-5082649.html). Who do you want to believe today?

  12. MOD PARENT UP, MOD GRANDPARENT DOWN by SirJaxalot · · Score: 0

    n/t

  13. Re:Ha! by gralem · · Score: 2

    Duh. Who thought that Apple was forcing upgrades? Idiots! Even if Apple was going to come up with some sort of conspiracy to "force" people to upgrade, they wouldn't use security. This is one of the most important features of the OS--this goes way beyond upgrade money.

    They will entice us with OSX.4 being "snappier than ever"!

    ---gralem

  14. This might not be good news. by EvilStein · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Apple rolled several security updates into that thing called 10.2.8, which has caused many people no end to troubles, especially those with older hardware.

    Yes, I have a beige G3. Yes, I've put a much faster ZIF processor in it. It's a small OS X Server. 10.2.8 screwed up all *kinds* of things.

    Can Apple please release the security updates individually so we can apply them as needed instead of bundling them into a dot-whatever release?
    That's all I ask, Apple. I'll buy a shiny new G4 (or G5) when I can actually afford it. (No, they're not too expensive, I'm just flat broke. :P)

    1. Re:This might not be good news. by MuckSavage · · Score: 1

      Damn apple for not supporting your 5 year old mac with third party add ons!

      Seriously, I'm not saying you have to spend two grand upgrading, I know I sure as hell can't afford that. But bashing apple for not supporting your configuration is kind of nit-picky. And you might bug your upgrade company for a fix. They have responsibility as well.

    2. Re:This might not be good news. by dmabram · · Score: 1

      Can you imagine how much more difficult this would be for Apple to test? Instead of having one update to test, they would have N. They would have to test all the permutations of those upgrades (ie I have installed the upgrade to fix security issue A and C, but I havent yet installed B, D, or E, and I am having the following problem...).

      Effectively this would mean upgrades coming out much more slowly. Its probably better that they simply release as one patch, yes it inconveniences a small number of people with five year old machines with processor upgrades and other odd configurations, but everyone else gets updates more quickly with more thorough testing.

    3. Re:This might not be good news. by callipygian-showsyst · · Score: 0, Troll
      It's a small OS X Server. 10.2.8 screwed up all *kinds* of things.

      No it didn't. It's BETTER. You're not thinking different.

    4. Re:This might not be good news. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      man you too! I had the same problem with G3 All-in-one. I was running 10.2.6 server on it and when I update to 10.2.8, the computer died! It can't read the harddrive installed in it! Then, MacOS 10.2 won't boot if it does(including the CD's). I am glad to see it wasn't my mistake

    5. Re:This might not be good news. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I bought 10.2 server to run on a new G5 only to find that it can't run the software. I was forced to use on a beige G3. Then, an update kill that computer. It was not upgraded except for ram and harddrive. So, you see apple sometimes has trouble supporting even new hardware.

      PS: Since I purchase 10.2 server before 10/8/03, I don't qualify for 10.3 update for $20. Thank Linus for Linux though.

    6. Re:This might not be good news. by jeffasselin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you'd actually read the apple tech article that was released soon after the G5 were shipping (on august 25th), you'd have known that it didn't work:

      http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=8 64 44

      --
      If he explores all forms and substances Straight homeward to their symbol-essences; He shall not die.
    7. Re:This might not be good news. by WNight · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You'd think it would work that way, but from my experience in testing I find that multiple small releases are easier to work with. You can be much more precise about what they affect and the testing is easier. Then, once you've run a full regression test on each individually you have a fairly good chance of being able to combine them all without any problems. If you just glom a bunch of things together you can't predict the impact very accurately and you end up doing a bunch of "wasted" testing.

      Also, you don't end up with the situation where SP2 hoses some program, because you can mark that specific patch, usually a tiny one, as causing problems and people can apply all the rest. The fact that only one small patch is a problem means that only one small patch needs to be fixed and retested, if you had to replace the whole service pack you'd have to retest it all.

    8. Re:This might not be good news. by pudge · · Score: 1

      If this really happened to you -- that is, that you did not read the documentation or Apple's postings on the subject, and thought 10.2 Server would run on a G5 -- then you could have complained to Apple who surely would have accepted a return/refund, or provided a voucher for an upgrade.

    9. Re:This might not be good news. by truenoir · · Score: 1

      Is it the "oops" release of 10.2.8 or the fixed one? I haven't tried 10.2.8 on a beige yet, but otherwise it seems to be fine...even the problematic ethernet error didn't affect machines using 100base. I did have a problem applying 10.2.8 once though, it just stopped copying files and I force quit it...bad move since the system couldn't boot. So I can agree with you on wanting some smaller chunks to update with (optionally). I'm broke and stuck with an older Mac for now too :(

    10. Re:This might not be good news. by EvilStein · · Score: 1

      Who said that it had 3rd party add-ons? It's an Apple 366mhz ZIF processor. An Apple part. That's the only thing that I've added.
      10.2 *is* supported on the beige G3s. However, they're *not* releasing security updates for 10.2, except in the package called "10.2.8"

      I want them to release the updates individually. That really isn't too much to ask. 10.2.8 caused a LOT of problems.
      It has nothing to do with my particular configuration - it's the stock OS I'm worried about.

    11. Re:This might not be good news. by MuckSavage · · Score: 1

      Now I understand what you were saying. And I have to agree about the security patches. Have you tried troubleshooting 10.2.8? you might be able to reinstall and make that baby work.

    12. Re:This might not be good news. by EvilStein · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah. I reformatted & reinstalled on an identical box. 10.2.6 worked great.
      10.2.8 introduced random USB power errors, hard freezes, intermittant ethernet, and a few other odd quirks.

      Back to 10.2.6, stable once again.

      I'm just going to stick to 10.2.6. I don't need anything that 10.2.8 provided anyway - except the security fixes. heh.

    13. Re:This might not be good news. by tgibbs · · Score: 1
      I bought 10.2 server to run on a new G5 only to find that it can't run the software. I was forced to use on a beige G3. Then, an update kill that computer.
      I've got a beige G3 running 10.2.8 just fine. Of course, it is stock, without any third party upgrades. But if 10.2.8 doesn't work for you, you can always go back to 10.2.7. I think the only serious concern is the SSH fix, which is available from open source.
    14. Re:This might not be good news. by tgibbs · · Score: 1
      Who said that it had 3rd party add-ons? It's an Apple 366mhz ZIF processor. An Apple part. That's the only thing that I've added.


      I am not aware of any Apple supported upgrades for the beige G3. An Apple part does not necessarily make it a supported upgrade.
  15. It's Soprano time. by HarveyBirdman · · Score: 4, Funny
    C'mere, you!

    Get over here.

    Now. (smack) Mac (smack) OS (smack) X (smack) supports (smack) multibutton (smack) mice (smack) right (smack) out (smack) of (smack) the (smack) box!

    (smack) (smack) (smack) (smack) (smack)

    Now pound sand before I officially sanction a hit. Jobs is a made man, and you shall not direspect his product. Capisca?

    --
    --- Ban humanity.
    1. Re:It's Soprano time. by Phroggy · · Score: 1

      My IBM three-button mouse has a scroll button which can scroll both vertically and horizontally. Unfortunately, horizontal scrolling is backwards (press left and it scrolls right, press right and it scrolls left); I don't know whether this is Apple's fault or IBM's.

      Also, pressing the left or right scroll buttons in an AIM window crashes AIM; I've reported this bug to AOL. I've worked around it by installing USB Overdrive, which disables horizontal scrolling altogether, and setting it to only affect AIM. This way AIM doesn't crash, and horizontal scrolling works (although backwards) in other apps.

      But yeah, other than that it works fine. Middle-clicking in Safari opens links in a new tab, or middle-clicking a bookmark folder menu thing opens all bookmarks in the folder in tabs.

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    2. Re:It's Soprano time. by HarveyBirdman · · Score: 1

      I put Expose on the right side button of my Intellimouse. Man, was that a revelation in GUI happiness. :-)

      --
      --- Ban humanity.
    3. Re:It's Soprano time. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Little good that does when developers are forced to assume that you have no more than one mouse button. At least Win/Lin developers can assume you have at least two.

      It's just like developing web pages - sure, some people have Internet Explorer 6 and Netscape 7.1, but you can't assume everyone does so you have to make your web page with the lowest common denominator (within reason).

      Also, if you people are forking over so much money for your Macs, it seems like a slap in the face that they skimp on the fricken mouse, especially since Mac OS is so mouse-centric. I guess every little dime counts...

    4. Re:It's Soprano time. by transient · · Score: 1

      Nice try, but multi-button mice are handled transparently by the standard class libraries. Developers aren't forced to assume anything because it's all been taken care of by Apple.

      --

      irb(main):001:0>
    5. Re:It's Soprano time. by CoolMoDee · · Score: 1

      Have you thought about using iChat instead of AIM? iChat rocks AIM massively..especially iChat AV..nothing like free phonecalls halfway across the globe.

      --
      Jisho - A Japanese English German Russian French Dictionary for the rest of us.
    6. Re:It's Soprano time. by Phroggy · · Score: 1

      Have you thought about using iChat instead of AIM?

      I have.

      iChat integrates with the Address Book.
      iChat shows people's real names, and handles people who have multiple screen names.
      iChat can do voice chats with other iChat users (although I haven't actually had an opportunity to try this yet).

      AIM lets you organize your buddies into groups/folders.
      AIM supports text-to-speech using a different voice for each person (using a default voice for people you haven't customized).
      AIM shows a different icon for buddies signed on from a mobile phone or using AOL, which can be useful to know.

      iChat does have a lot of the features I want, although (like with Mail) they seem hidden in weird places. If they add groups/folders, maybe I'll try switching.

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    7. Re:It's Soprano time. by jaysones · · Score: 1

      To scroll horizontally in Mac OS X, hold down the shift button on the keyboard and use the vertical scroll wheel on your mouse. Works in Finder, Safari, lots of apps. Cool!

    8. Re:It's Soprano time. by CoolMoDee · · Score: 1

      Try View - Show Groups, that give some of the functionality that you are looking for. Ya, i wish ichat had like a blue icon or so for people that are on mobile phones.

      --
      Jisho - A Japanese English German Russian French Dictionary for the rest of us.
  16. ZDNet == FUDNet by MuckSavage · · Score: 4, Funny

    At least ZDNet continues their excellent track record of fair, unbiased reporting with regards to apple.

    1. Re:ZDNet == FUDNet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you mean fair and balanced...right?

  17. Re:Great by Argofickyusilf · · Score: 0, Flamebait
    Dude or Dudette, you wouldn't have been mod'ed as "Flamebait" if you stated the reasons why:

    You wouldn't use it

    Documentation to back it up (personal experience counts)
    That's the way it works on /.. Flame away all you want, but the folks here want the facts to back it up.

  18. What's up ZDNet? by HarveyBirdman · · Score: 1
    ZDNet has also "upgraded" their message boards into unusability. No preview button, and it takes an average of fifty-seven hours between clicking "comment" and getting the entry page.

    Did Microsoft merge with them as well?

    Aw, geez, here comes another Offtopic Troll mod. :-\

    --
    --- Ban humanity.
    1. Re:What's up ZDNet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HA HA HA HA! A funny about MS + Some random company = Slow. That's a hoot! I bet no one has thought of that before! Christ, your a funny man - you should be a comedian!

    2. Re:What's up ZDNet? by HarveyBirdman · · Score: 0, Flamebait
      But, I'm funny how? Funny like a clown? I amuse you? I make you laugh? I'm here to fuckin' amuse you? What is so funny about me? What the FUCK is so funny about me? Tell me. Tell me what's funny.

      What are you gonna say about me? What are you gonna say? That I was a kind man? That I was a wise man? That I had plans? That I had wisdom? Bullshit man!

      This is the way the fucking world ends. Look at this fucking shit we're in man. Not with a bang, but with a whimper. And with a whimper, I'm fucking splitting, Jack.

      --
      --- Ban humanity.
    3. Re:What's up ZDNet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hahaaa. you're a coward. you suck

    4. Re:What's up ZDNet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great Dennis Hopper/Apocalpse Now quote. Keep up the good work.

    5. Re:What's up ZDNet? by HarveyBirdman · · Score: 1
      Tell that to the moron who modded it flamebait.

      Kids today just don't know the classiscs. :-(

      --
      --- Ban humanity.
  19. check it out! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Hello. I would like to discuss a neat little command line utility included in Mac OS X that doesn't get enough attention in my humble opinion. Living in /usr/bin/, this simple Open Source tool is something that I just can not live without. What is this wondrous textual utility that I'm talking about? It's none other than machine!

    Included since 1991 with the 4.4BSD platform, machine gives you the processor name that your system is based on. I don't know if it works for Intel or any other architectures since when I opened up the binary in TextEdit.app and couldn't find any processor name strings. Here's an incomplete list of machine output that I do know of to help illustrate what I mean:

    • ppc603
    • ppc604
    • ppc620
    • ppc750
    • ppc970

    What I think is the funnest part of machine is bringing up its manual page. I wonder who was clever enough to invent this little pun, but it makes me LOL every time I do it. Sometimes I do it just to laugh, even if I don't want to learn about machine at the moment. In case you can't guess, here is the command to bring up the manual:

    man machine

    omfg LOL!!11! I have been accessing this program since OpenStep 4.2, then in Rhapsody DR2 and continue to use it today under Mac OS X v10.3. Kudos to NeXT and now Apple for including this Wunderwerkzeug for almost 10 years. It sure makes my Power Mac a joy to use. Check it out!

    1. Re:check it out! by Phroggy · · Score: 1

      If you think machine is cool, try hostinfo.

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    2. Re:check it out! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      omfg!!!11!!!1!!

    3. Re:check it out! by myrdred · · Score: 1

      You forgot to mention:

      ppc7450

      However, your point is well taken. This command, apparantly, has been "under development" for quite some time, over 10 years in fact, atleast according to the man page. I wonder what are all the ubersecret features they have been working on since then?

      Clearly, when fully implemented, this command would do something so great, that it will make every man, woman, and child in continental Australia go "WOW", and then promptly crap their pants.

    4. Re:check it out! by tb3 · · Score: 1

      Aww! I only have a 'Mach Factor' of 0.41. Anyone break the sound barrier yet?

      --

      www.lucernesys.comHorizon: Calendar-based personal finance

    5. Re:check it out! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mach kernel version:
      Darwin Kernel Version 7.0.0:
      Wed Sep 24 15:48:39 PDT 2003; root:xnu/xnu-517.obj~1/RELEASE_PPC

      Kernel configured for a single processor only.
      1 processor is physically available.
      Processor type: ppc750 (PowerPC 750)
      Processor active: 0
      Primary memory available: 384.00 megabytes.
      Default processor set: 44 tasks, 123 threads, 1 processors
      Load average: 0.90, Mach factor: 0.58

    6. Re:check it out! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Australia's not a continent; it's an island. That should have been "insular Australia."

    7. Re:check it out! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder what are all the ubersecret features they have been working on since then?

      They've been adding support for newer, different types of machines, of course.

    8. Re:check it out! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Australia is both, dangit.

    9. Re:check it out! by Yarn · · Score: 1
      Darwin Kernel Version 6.8:
      Wed Sep 10 15:20:55 PDT 2003; root:xnu/xnu-344.49.obj~2/RELEASE_PPC

      Kernel configured for up to 2 processors.
      2 processors are physically available.
      Processor type: ppc7450 (PowerPC 7450)
      Processors active: 0 1
      Primary memory available: 256.00 megabytes.
      Default processor set: 93 tasks, 324 threads, 2 processors
      Load average: 0.47, Mach factor: 1.52
      Not up there with Concorde yet..
      --
      -Yarn - Rio Karma: Excellent
  20. Re:Yes, but... by iCat · · Score: 1

    Oh, the one I must have downloaded in my sleep, that allows my MS (I know) wireless mouse to 'Just Work' (tm) with Jagwah, now Panther

    Check out your facts next time.

  21. I got the patches last night... by crazyphilman · · Score: 1

    And, they installed perfectly, with no troubles. Although I did think it odd that I had to reboot a couple of times. I always thought that was just a Microsoft thing. Can't complain though; Mac OS/X boots FAST. I'd say about a minute, maybe less. So you don't really notice it that much...

    --
    Farewell! It's been a fine buncha years!
    1. Re:I got the patches last night... by grocer · · Score: 1

      I checked for patches last night, there weren't any for 10.2.x (Jaguar), only 10.3.0 (Panther)

      The security patches (or lack thereof) is a Jaguar problem, not Panther problem (according to @stake & Apple).

      So if/when Apple release patches for Jaguar, patch it...otherwise, unrelated.

    2. Re:I got the patches last night... by crazyphilman · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, you're wrong. I patched from 10.2.4 to 10.2.8 last night, about 4:30AM. Better check the Apple site again (go through their support site, look for the combo patch, don't go through third parties).

      --
      Farewell! It's been a fine buncha years!
    3. Re:I got the patches last night... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      10.2.8 was released a few weeks ago...

    4. Re:I got the patches last night... by grocer · · Score: 1

      The security holes affect all 10.2.x versions...and 10.2.8 has been out for at least two weeks.

    5. Re:I got the patches last night... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a good friend of mine used to say when being absolutely blunt, "you're a goddamn idiot."

    6. Re:I got the patches last night... by crazyphilman · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Actually, I've gone to their site and looked a little more thoroughly. It looks like the standalone installer for the 10.2.8 update is dated Oct. 3rd, so it seems as though you're right. So, I'm eating crow. Sorry; thought I was pointing you to something useful.

      As far as the AC's go who were, in true cowardly fashion, extremely rude and nasty to me, I don't let that sort of thing bother me. If a person doesn't have the balls to post from his own account, he's not worth listening to, which is why A/Cs are under my threshold. I only open them up when I'm extremely bored (like tonight).

      --
      Farewell! It's been a fine buncha years!
  22. DO NOT EXECUTE THE ABOVE COMMAND! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anyone who types in the command in the above post deserves what they get

    1. Re:DO NOT EXECUTE THE ABOVE COMMAND! by MuckSavage · · Score: 1

      Yes, a small output of what processor they are running.

      This isn't windows. In order to do serious damage, you'd have to run a malicious command as root.

    2. Re:DO NOT EXECUTE THE ABOVE COMMAND! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      serv$ machine
      i386
      serv$ su
      Password:
      serv# machine
      i386
      Warning: 5 sector(s) in last cylinder unallocated /dev/rwd0a: 80320 sectors in 5 cylinders of 255 tracks, 63 sectors
      39.2MB in 1 cyl groups (64 c/g, 502.03MB/g, 2560 i/g)
      Filesystem creation complete.
      serv# ls
      ls: Command not found.

  23. Re:Goatse-guy replaced by goatse-pumpkin! by jweatherley · · Score: 2, Offtopic

    Heh! It really has - take a look as long as it's still 31Oct otherwise avert those eyes...

    --

    --
    Reverse outsourcing: it's the future
  24. the million $ question is... by tota · · Score: 2, Insightful

    would they have done it as quickly without @stake first finding these bugs then putting bugtraq and media pressure on apple?

    --
    TODO: 753) write sig.
    1. Re:the million $ question is... by gunnk · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Apple has generally been very responsive in fixing security problems. I don't have any reason to believe they would have acted differently in this case.

      Since the historical trend indicates that Apple is good at issuing fixes in a timely manner, what makes you think that Apple has suddenly changed their policy on patches?

      The real million dollar question here is whether or not @stake acted responsibly in releasing the details of the flaws publicly. Did they give Apple time to prepare the patches or did they publish too soon? Remember that @stake fired their CTO for making negative comments about Microsoft. To what degree is this firm a "white hat" security consultant vs. a Microsoft "compensated endorser"?

      @stakes inability to tolerate anyone critical of Microsoft and this security flaw announcement which included erroneous statements that Apple would not fix the problem tend to bring @stake's credibility and integrity into question.

      --
      Life is short: void the warranty.
    2. Re:the million $ question is... by tota · · Score: 1
      I agree, but...
      All I was trying ot point out is that they may have been more dilligent in their response now that a lot more people are aware of the issues.

      As to wether releasing the details of the flaw is due to a "Microsoft compensated endorser", it sounds to me like a consiparcy theory more than anything, but I could be wrong.
      I think they have been fair and that Apple has had more than enough time to get it sorted out.

      Which versions get updated and which ones aren't is left to Apple. The purpose of lists like bugtraq is to keep people informed, not to whithold important security information because of vendor indifference, irresponsability, or in this case a drive to force user to pay for an upgrade?

      --
      TODO: 753) write sig.
  25. huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What are you talking about? It was never a question about Microsoft. They have always supported their products. They are still supporting NT which is 8 years old.

  26. So what was the hold up? by Sebby · · Score: 0, Troll
    "Apple's policy is to quickly address significant vulnerabilities in past releases of Mac OS X wherever feasible,"

    Clearly it was feasible, so why wasn't it quick?

    --

    AC comments get piped to /dev/null
    1. Re:So what was the hold up? by MuckSavage · · Score: 1

      2 days? Maybe they're not whipping their coders fast enough.

    2. Re:So what was the hold up? by Sebby · · Score: 1
      You're ignoring the fact that Panther has had this fix already.

      It was released last week. In beta before that.

      So, again, what was the hold up?

      --

      AC comments get piped to /dev/null
    3. Re:So what was the hold up? by ZackSchil · · Score: 1

      There is a difference. Much of Panther has been rewritten, including a new kernel version (Darwin 7.0), other OSS components, the whole Finder, etc... Panther didn't have the bugs fixed already, it was just unaffected by them.

    4. Re:So what was the hold up? by Jippy_ · · Score: 1

      MuckSavage? a'la AAF?

    5. Re:So what was the hold up? by Sebby · · Score: 1
      If that were true, than why did apple release this list of fixes for panther, if they didn't exist in the first place.

      "Oh, here's a list of fixes, for bugs that don't exist." Yeah right.

      --

      AC comments get piped to /dev/null
    6. Re:So what was the hold up? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bugs that go away because the code has been rewritten count as "fixes" - the bug's not there, right? So it's fixed.

    7. Re:So what was the hold up? by Sebby · · Score: 1
      So why bother releasing a fix list if there's no bug?

      --

      AC comments get piped to /dev/null
    8. Re:So what was the hold up? by MuckSavage · · Score: 1

      Uhhh... No! Why would a cool guy like that be posting on geek sites! I'm.... err.. he's much too cool for that.

      And too busy, yeah! That's it! Too busy doing cool shit! ;)

    9. Re:So what was the hold up? by ZackSchil · · Score: 1

      Panther has been under heavy development and still is. Jaguar was not. It just took them a bit to note the changes in Panther and and turn around to use them in Jag. On the other hand, we don't know if the "bug fix" page is citing bugs that have been deliberately fixed or those that have been incidentally. If the @stake bug has been fixed for weeks but it was just reported a few days ago, wouldn't that suggest that it was just tested and shown not to effect the new code? A team wanting to please management and consumers might want to list that as a positive change, even if it is just incidental.

    10. Re:So what was the hold up? by Sebby · · Score: 1
      So, they 'created' new fixed bugs that were really non-existant, just to look good?

      --

      AC comments get piped to /dev/null
    11. Re:So what was the hold up? by ZackSchil · · Score: 1

      No, the bugs existed in Jaguar but not in Panther. Since Panther is the next step of jag, why not tout that they were "fixed?"

    12. Re:So what was the hold up? by Sebby · · Score: 1
      You seem to be going in circles.

      Jaguar has bugs; they finally announce they'll fix them after all the storm over this.

      Panther didn't have the bugs, because they were 'fixed' as part of development.

      I ask why it took so long for Apple to announce the fixes, even waiting until after the bugs were revealed.

      You tell me the list of fixes for Panther are for bugs that don't exist in Panther, only in Jaguar.

      I ask why the list for Panther then.

      You tell me it's for bugs that don't exist in Panther, only Jaguar.

      Wash, rinse, repeat.

      --

      AC comments get piped to /dev/null
    13. Re:So what was the hold up? by ZackSchil · · Score: 1

      Step-by-step:

      Jaguar is out there, Panther is in development

      Lots of rewritten code for Panther, whole new Finder

      Panther released

      Security issue found in Jaguar that doesn't seem to effect Panther.

      Panther team notes this change.

      Apple says they'll patch Jaguar.

      That's the way I see it.

    14. Re:So what was the hold up? by Sebby · · Score: 1
      NTR

      --

      AC comments get piped to /dev/null
  27. quit yer whining by proj_2501 · · Score: 1

    i still don't even have a g3 to run mac os x on

  28. Apple refuses to fix bugs in ProDOS!!!! by freeze128 · · Score: 2, Funny

    I don't want to be forced to upgrade to an Apple ][gs...

    1. Re:Apple refuses to fix bugs in ProDOS!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then you will never know the power of a a true 16 bit OS -- GS/OS! Don't laugh, I wrote part of it :).

  29. Re: Macs and upgrades by King_TJ · · Score: 1

    Actually, your statement to "bug your upgrade company" may not really be fair either.

    Relatively small vendors such as Sonnet have plenty of work to do, just figuring out ways to cram faster G3 and G4 processors into all the older makes and models of Macs. Not only that, but they've already provided all the software tools needed to make them perform 100% in MacOS 9.x. In a few cases, they've sold optional utilities to make them work with OS X 10.2.x -- but ensuring support of the latest Apple OS's was never really anyhing they are "required" to do.

    I bought a 550Mhz G3 upgrade card for an old PowerMac 7300 a while ago. Really sped it up and works just as advertised. Will it run Panther? No. Will it ever? Maybe, but who cares. I built this thing for one reason only.... to have a box that runs MacOS 9.1 efficiently - so I can remain compatible with any older software I might wish to run.

  30. Re:Secrets by softspokenrevolution · · Score: 1

    Might this have to do with the shares that Mr. Gates happens to own in Apple?

  31. Almost certainly... by Trillan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I doubt they told @stake they weren't going to fix them. I doubt they told @stake they were going to fix them. In fact, I doubt they even told @stake that the flaws didn't affect Panther... @stake probably found that out and told Apple.

    Apple doesn't talk details in unreleased products.

    There's a couple reasons we're seeing this press release:

    • @Stake acted unethically and went to the press early to get their name seen.
      Ethical reporting of security flaws involves going to the company and giving them time to get a patch out. Then, one or both companies announces the flaw... and includes details of the patch. @stake jumped the gun and did not use white hat practices.
    • ZDNet engaged in wild speculation with typical bias.
      ZDNet decided that @stake's announcement meant Apple wasn't going to fix the problem, and decided to give it a spin. As they actually indicated in their story, they did not wait for a comment from Apple before rushing the thing to press.

    Hopefully, @stake will do better next time. But I doubt their role in this will be examined very carefully.

    I know ZDNet will do the same thing next time. They smell any blood around Apple, they're the first to paint a picture of mass destruction, mayhem and cats and dogs sleeping together.

    If @stake hadn't jumped the gun, we'd have seen a press release some time next week on Apple's site about the security flaws, with a fix, and with credit to @stake for finding them. How do I know this? Because it's what they've done every other time, including with 10.1 after 10.2 was released!

    1. Re:Almost certainly... by fdobbie · · Score: 1

      Actually, @stake reported it to Apple months ago, which IS WHY they are fixed in Panther. @stake only released their advisories once Panther was out and it was clear that it was not vulnerable.

    2. Re:Almost certainly... by Trillan · · Score: 1

      But they didn't wait for the Jaguar patch.

    3. Re:Almost certainly... by Trillan · · Score: 1

      Also, you're just speculating on why it is fixed in Panther. For that matter, so is @stake if you've got this from them.

    4. Re:Almost certainly... by Dahan · · Score: 1

      Huh? I guess you didn't realize that Apple credited @stake for reporting the vulnerabilities? They're fixed in Panther because @stake told Apple about them during the Panther beta. We didn't hear about it until now because @stake agreed to wait until Panther's release before disclosing the vulnerabilities.

  32. Yes they have: it's called.... by jo_ham · · Score: 1

    ...walking-to-the-store-and-buying-a-two-button-mo use-and-plugging-the-fucker-in.app

    If you run this software there is a small fee - usually about $10.

  33. What about 10.1? by gumpish · · Score: 1

    What about folks who refused to swallow the $129 to go from 10.1 to 10.2? Will they continue to get security fixes?

    (Personally I'm disgusted that 10.1.x users will never get Java 1.4.x)

    1. Re:What about 10.1? by zpok · · Score: 1

      If you're still suffering the 10.1 release, I recommend you go straight to 10.3 and stop whining.

      --
      I think, therefore I am...I think.
    2. Re:What about 10.1? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I feel sorry for you if you're still using 10.1x

    3. Re:What about 10.1? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hi. I bought MacOS X version 10.0 a few years ago for my shiny new iMac 233, and haven't seen any free updates in a while. What about folks who refused to to swallow the $20 to go from 10.0 to 10.1? Personally, I'm disgusted my computer sucks so bad.

    4. Re:What about 10.1? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah! And I'M personally disgusted that 7.5.x users will never get iPhoto. Or iSync. Or iDVD. Or Expos. APPLE IS SCREWING US OVER!!!!

    5. Re:What about 10.1? by shidoshi · · Score: 1

      I can see the people who would rather stay with Jaguar than switch over to Panther - however, why would anybody stick with 10.1? Yes, it was the first really stable, really usable release, but if you value your computing experience at all, there is no excuse for not at least upgrading to Jaguar. There were still too many things in 10.1 that needing to be worked out, smoothed over, improved, the whole works.

      Refusing to upgrade from 10.2, maybe I can see. But refusing to upgrade from 10.1, sorry, I can't feed bad for those people.

    6. Re:What about 10.1? by foo12 · · Score: 1

      10.0 --> 10.1 wasn't $20 for everyone. You could walk into an Apple store and they'd give you the CDs for free.

    7. Re:What about 10.1? by shumacher · · Score: 1
      10.0 --> 10.1 wasn't $20 for everyone. You could walk into an Apple store and they'd give you the CDs for free.
      Or, just about any other Apple retailer. It would, however, have been nice if Apple had shipped it free the Apple Store customers. I'm sure the extra profit of having made the sale direct would have allowed them to provide a higher level of service.
    8. Re:What about 10.1? by shumacher · · Score: 1
      So much hostility over this. I can see why they wouldn't patch 10.0. It was free/cheap to move to 10.1. 10.1 should get a patch though. Say what you will about 10.1, it's a usable product, the upgrade to 10.2 wasn't free for 10.1 users. Imagine if Microsoft didn't offer a security patch to Windows ME users, because the upgrade to XP was only $99 and XP was a better user experience. This is practically the same thing. MS still patches some security flaws in 98, when it suits them. I'd say the simple policy would be to patch OS versions where the last license shipped was within five years for at least serious security issue, except when the upgrade to a newer OS verson is free. That means, for example, that Mac OS 8.6 gets patched, but Mac OS 9.0.4 doesn't. 9.0.4 can be upgraded to 9.2.2 for free. Remember, I'm talking about security fixes. This is stuff that was shipped broken, and someone can get hurt because of it. Java, well, yes, that's a damn shame, and yes, I think Apple is trying to twist your arm for more money there, but that could be called a feature upgrade, not a security issue - Java 1.4.x wasn't on the feature list that you signed up for when you bought 10.1, but security was.

      I'm trying the decide on an upgrade from 10.1 myself. I want 10.3, but I don't want to lose iMovie (my three year old laptop won't support iMovie3) and I don't want to buy a Quicktime 6 Pro key, having bought a Quicktime 5 Pro key only shortly before the release of Quicktime 6.

    9. Re:What about 10.1? by displaced80 · · Score: 1

      I might be missing something, but...

      Just rename your original iMovie to (f'rex) iMovie 2, and you'll be able to use both.

      --
      What's the frequency, Kenneth?
  34. service releases by planckscale · · Score: 0, Flamebait
    So the OS has been out, what, a week, and already people are finding security problems? Of course, so what about all the other hardware issues, and additional bugs that have already been found. Why would Apple rush to send out 10 security patches when Panther Public Beta 1.1 will soon be released?

    --
    Namaste
    1. Re:service releases by Trillan · · Score: 1

      RTFA. This is discussing whether or not security flaws in 10.2 (released a year ago) will be fixed, not 10.3. The flaws don't exist in 10.3.

  35. Re: Macs and upgrades by MuckSavage · · Score: 1

    So it's more apple's responsibility to support 3rd party upgrade cards, than the card manufacturer itself? I don't get it.

  36. Re:Yes, but... by American+AC+in+Paris · · Score: 0, Offtopic
    Oh, c'mon, people. Do I really need to use the <sarcasm> tag?

    Does this really look like a troll?

    Before I'm excommunicated for failing to deliver a joke with the subtlety of a nailbat-wielding goon, would it change any minds to know that I actually use a 3-button mouse on my PowerBook? Anybody?

    --

    Obliteracy: Words with explosions

  37. Apple Still Forces Upgrade? by rabel · · Score: 0

    Well did they say they would support 10.1? 10.0? Did they, huh? huh? The real conspiracy is that they're trying to force upgrades to 10.1! Aha!

  38. Conclusions by Verteiron · · Score: 2, Funny

    from the do-not-jump-to-the-island-of-conclusions dept.

    Wow, and here I was starting to think I was the only person in the world who read "The Phantom Tollbooth".

    --
    End of lesson. You may press the button.
    1. Re:Conclusions by Slowtreme · · Score: 1

      The Phantom Tollbooth One of my favorite books as a kid, then I found out 10 years later they made a movie of it. The movie/cartoon however didn't really do it for me. I wanted to see a guy 2x as wide as he was tall ;)

      --
      Post: Sigged, for your pleasure.
    2. Re:Conclusions by FreeUser · · Score: 1

      Wow, and here I was starting to think I was the only person in the world who read "The Phantom Tollbooth".

      Nope, here's at least one other. In later years I always wanted to get a supply of those "subtraction cakes" so I could chow down and lose some weight. Then Atkins comes along, and I discover those subtraction cakes were under my nose the whole time ... in the form of steaks, bacon, eggs, and assorted other greasy stuff. Who knew?

      The phantom tollbooth as an educational child's fantasy absolutely rocked.

      --
      The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
    3. Re:Conclusions by Mryll · · Score: 1

      Great book. Thanks for the reminder, going to get a copy for my niece and nephew.

    4. Re:Conclusions by RedBear · · Score: 1

      One more here. That's one of those books that really had a sense of magic and the bizarre to it. Truly original.

      Whoops, gotta go, you know how Time Flies. ;)

    5. Re:Conclusions by Nalgas+D.+Lemur · · Score: 1

      This has always been one of my favorite books that I read when I was younger, but I haven't re-read it in years. I was lucky; at the elementary school I went to, my class actually was required to read "The Phantom Tollbooth" in third grade. I don't think everyone appreciated it, but most of us had fun with it, some more than others. Maybe I should go pick up a copy of it so I can read it again...

  39. Here's another example. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here's another example. Whoever metamoderates the parent Offtopic, make sure you metamoderate it as Unfair. The topic being discussed (by the grandparent, which was moderated Insightful) was moderation.

  40. /. is going to shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Lets stop posting worthless or erroneous stories

  41. one word by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    duh

  42. @stake sometimes waits for a fix.... by masonbrown · · Score: 2, Interesting

    According to this advisory at @stake, they have at least once withheld release of a vulnerability until affected systems could be patched. This paragraph kinda sums it up:

    Due to the severity of this vulnerability @stake has confirmed that they will not be releasing this information publicly on their research page (http://www.atstake.com/research/) until Nokia has confirmed that all affected operators have fully patched and tested all affected elements. However @stake would ideally like to release this information no later than 1st June 2003.

    So it does seem a little childish to just jump out and announce a vulnerability to the world.... My guess (yeah, it's just the little scenario I've worked up in my mind) is that @stake wanted to "work with Apple" and release a joint press-release type scenario on squashing a vulnerability. Apple of course doesn't want to give credit to anyone for anything (not trolling, just stating an observation), and refuses the offer. @stake gets pissed and blares this up and down the board, issuing press releases, contacting specific non-Apple-loving reporters, etc. You know why I think this? From the same advisory linked above is this self-serving text:

    @stake worked with Nokia to ensure that all affected operators where informed and upgraded and only after this time did @stake agree to release this information to the public.

    Do you really think that Nokia let @stake get into their code, make security changes, and essentially be a full partner in the effort to crush this vulnerability? I don't.

  43. Panther? Jaguar? Why so specific? by unsung · · Score: 1

    Dammit, I thought that original post seemed wrong and didn't warrant a response, but why can't Apple just come out and say that *ALL* OS 10 versions will be fixed, instead getting specific with Panther, Jaguar, 10.2.8.whatever.

    1. Re:Panther? Jaguar? Why so specific? by pudge · · Score: 1

      why can't Apple just come out and say that *ALL* OS 10 versions will be fixed, instead getting specific

      Because they will not be updating 10.1 or 10.0. They also don't update Mac OS at all anymore, except for where it is necessary for Mac OS X interaction, and even that is rare.

    2. Re:Panther? Jaguar? Why so specific? by MuckSavage · · Score: 1

      And I think that all versions are different enough that they can't. That's like saying M$ should release a patch that fixes 95, 98, Me, and 2k.

  44. Let's be fair and balanced (no, really) here... by gr · · Score: 4, Informative

    The initial security advisories did include a "vendor response" section. Across the board that said "upgrade to 10.3", without any mention of a forthcoming patch for earlier releases.

    That's the only thing that had Bugtraq up in arms: the lack of assurance that earlier versions would see a patch. And most of the people worried about that were worried because they want Apple to suceed as a Unix vendor, not because they want to see it crash and burn. (I don't know about the Slashdot comments, because I only read more than the highest rated couple of comments when I've got moderator points, but I'd guess that at least some of them were along the same lines.)

    I don't know if it was merely a typographical oversight, or if Apple really didn't have any plans to release patches for earlier releases. In the first case they should have been more clear initially (and now they will), in the latter case they were making a huge mistake. I'm inclined to believe it's the former.

    This is not the first time that Apple's security PR has been less than impeccable. They've rebounded pretty well each time, and I haven't seen them make the same mistake twice.

    It's only reasonable to expect them to get harshly criticized, especially with Mac OS X: they're jumping from a very soft, easy-going market (desktop publishing and education) into an insanely security-conscious market (Unix enterprise servers). They're actually doing quite well, but there are still more entrance pains to come. The security community is, to an extent, xenophobic, and certainly disinclined to believe that a vendor with a relatively small amount of experience in the market can be relied upon to do the right thing. So Apple has to prove themselves a bit. So far, they're doing pretty well. It doesn't matter if you make mistakes like this, as long as you admit to them, patch things up, and then don't keep making them (hey Microsoft, you listening here?).

    And Apple really is doing a good job: I've seriously considered bringing Mac OS X (and the related hardware) in as a replacement for aging Sun hardware running Solaris. Sun seems to be falling apart, and (especially with the G5) Apple seems to be a reasonable replacement in the mid-range compute + high I/O line of work without the vendor/service problems you get from Linux (which isn't so hot on the I/O front, since it's hampered by the IA32 architecture's crappy I/O design... other architectures don't matter, because Red Hat doesn't support them commercially).

    --
    Do you have a /. uid shorter than five digits? No? Then piss off.
    1. Re:Let's be fair and balanced (no, really) here... by tgibbs · · Score: 1

      The interesting thing is that so many people are so desperate to hear something negative about Apple that they eagerly accepted an unsubstantiated report that was ridiculous on its face. After all, Apple has continued to support earlier versions of OSX long after they were supplanted by new versions. And they were clearly working on a 10.2.8 upgrade almost up to the day of release for Panther.

    2. Re:Let's be fair and balanced (no, really) here... by Paracelcus · · Score: 1

      "(which isn't so hot on the I/O front, since it's hampered by the IA32 architecture's crappy I/O design... other architectures don't matter, because Red Hat doesn't support them commercially)"

      But IBM does! on the new eServers with the Power4 processor, starting at -6,000.00! (Or if you prefer AIX it's a little more).
      That's one HELL of a lot of bang for the buck!

      --
      I killed da wabbit -Elmer Fudd
    3. Re:Let's be fair and balanced (no, really) here... by 47PHA60 · · Score: 1

      That's the only thing that had Bugtraq up in arms: the lack of assurance that earlier versions would see a patch.

      I agree completely. I have criticized Apple not for their actions, but for their failure to explain anything. They don't communicate with their customers; they don't respond to anyone in their own apple.com forums (either to address or disprove claims made there), and they don't publish OS support schedules. As a result, the Apple market is rumour-based, which for corporate adoption is a very bad thing.

      Their paying customers are left to slug it out on the Internet, and Apple appears afraid to commit themselves.

      In a previous /. forum, I wrote up that it is this problem that prevents my company from adopting OS X (and Macs), and was basically told to trust Apple, or upgrade to Panther. Mind you, I was told this by Apple users as equally clueless as myself, since nobody knows what Apple's plans are until the company chooses to communicate.

      In hopes of exerting some small influence, I sent a note to Apple about this, explaining:

      - I work for a financial management company. We need to control our upgrade/security patch schedule.
      - we use Windows and Solaris because they support their old OS releases, and tell us how long that support will last.
      - we can choose when to apply service packs or security patches based on our software vendors, our in-house developers' needs, and our corporate policies. For example, to keep our core business moving, we try to avoid changes near the end of the month, and we specifically ban all changes during the last month of the fiscal year. Because of this policy, we have a rock-solid computing environment. Unplanned downtime totals less than a few hours per year.

      I explained that if Apple would adopt support policies geared toward companies, this would help those of us considering Macs and OS X in the workplace. Many in my company have called their Macs with OS X "the best computer ever," but those machines are all at home. We know that we cannot bring them into work until Apple tells us how far we can count on support. It's the same that we ask of all our vendors.

      I am not asking Apple to promise everything, no vendor can do that. I just wish that they would at least say "we cannot offer such service at this time," or, "we are evaluating business support plans for our products and will let you know within 6 months." Any information would be very useful.
    4. Re:Let's be fair and balanced (no, really) here... by valmont · · Score: 1
      Do you have a /. uid shorter than five digits? No? Then piss off.

      i do. :-*

  45. Apple DID NOT initially plan to patch Jaguar by McSpew · · Score: 4, Interesting

    According to David Goldsmith of @Stake, "In my initial conversations with them [Apple], they said they weren't going to fix 10.2, but I wouldn't be surprised if they change that."

    In other words, this isn't just some sort of overblown speculation run amok. Apple did initially tell security experts they didn't plan to patch Jaguar. That was a stupid plan, and even the security experts didn't expect that to last, but that doesn't change the fact that someone from Apple did claim Jaguar wouldn't be patched.

    What I find amusing is the fact that Apple zealots are using this story and its development as further evidence in the conspiracy against Apple, when even the much-hated (and deservedly so) Microsoft has been known to back-port security and even many stability patches to the current and previous versions of their OSes as they're working on their next generation products. Does anybody remember that MS backported lots of fixes to NT 4.0 in SP5 and SP6 based on work they'd done developing Win2k?

    Unlike Apple, however, MS didn't make NT 4.0 users wait until after Win2k shipped before bothering to release the fixes for NT 4.0. Jaguar users shouldn't have had to wait until after Panther shipped to get those security fixes. They're still waiting, aren't they?

    1. Re:Apple DID NOT initially plan to patch Jaguar by MoneyT · · Score: 4, Insightful

      One person's "initial conversations" That could have been as simple as him calling tech support and asking the question. Or asking one of the employees at the apple store. Not everyone in Apple knows everything that's going on at every minute.

      --
      T Money
      World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
    2. Re:Apple DID NOT initially plan to patch Jaguar by buysse · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I'm paranoid, I'll freely admit, but this is the same l0pht^H^H^H^H^H @stake that canned someone who was critical of Microsoft? Hmmp.
      $credibility{'@stake'}--;

      --
      -30-
    3. Re:Apple DID NOT initially plan to patch Jaguar by pudge · · Score: 1

      According to David Goldsmith of @Stake, "In my initial conversations with them [Apple], they said they weren't going to fix 10.2, but I wouldn't be surprised if they change that."

      Who at Apple? Was it someone who actually had authority or knowledge? And what, exactly, was said? How do we know Goldsmith didn't misunderstand? This quote from Goldsmith is entirely useless. It has no meaning. Maybe some low-level techie who was working on the bugs told Goldsmith, "I dunno, I'd be surprised if they updated 10.2."

      Apple did initially tell security experts they didn't plan to patch Jaguar.

      That is speculation. You have no way of knowing, unless you know exactly who said what to Goldsmith. And you don't.

    4. Re:Apple DID NOT initially plan to patch Jaguar by McSpew · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm guessing the director of research at a leading security company is not going to bother with clueless tech support droids. I'd suspect he has a direct line to the people responsible for security issues with the various OS products. It's highly probable the person he spoke to was reasonably well-informed. Does that mean that the person he spoke to was definitely in the loop? Possibly not. However, I'd suspect if that person didn't know, they might just say, "I don't know what the plans are at this point," as opposed to saying they weren't planning to port those security updates back to Jaguar.

      And keep in mind, here, that the quote wasn't, "They didn't know of any plans," it was "they weren't going to." It's possible that Goldsmith misunderstood what he was told or exaggerated what he was told, but security researchers depend on their reputations, so I think they tend to be careful about overstating such things. Again, keep in mind that Goldsmith said, "I wouldn't be surprised if they change that," which shows that he wasn't trying to make more of it than there was.

      However, none of this changes the fact that Apple initially planned not to backport the fixes to Jaguar. Apple zealots can stop trying to rewrite history after the fact.

    5. Re:Apple DID NOT initially plan to patch Jaguar by Lars+T. · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Unlike Apple, however, MS didn't make NT 4.0 users wait until after Win2k shipped before bothering to release the fixes for NT 4.0. Jaguar users shouldn't have had to wait until after Panther shipped to get those security fixes.

      Well, genius, will you give your time-machine to Apple so they can send the fix back to before they A) shipped Panther and B) were informed of the bug after A)? As for Microsoft, they sure as hell fixed bugs in NT 4 after Win2k shipped, as well as after XP shipped - and NT4 is EOL, so they won't fix any more bugs that are found, and there will be more bugs found in NT4.

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    6. Re:Apple DID NOT initially plan to patch Jaguar by Scudsucker · · Score: 1

      I'd suspect he has a direct line to the people responsible for security issues with the various OS products.

      Why would he have anything of the sort? Why should Apple give a steaming turd who this person is?

      And keep in mind, here, that the quote wasn't, "They didn't know of any plans," it was "they weren't going to." It's possible that Goldsmith misunderstood what he was told or exaggerated what he was told

      Uh, then maybe people could have waited until an official press release from Apple, rather than taking second hand information and announcing it as fact?

      However, none of this changes the fact that Apple initially planned not to backport the fixes to Jaguar.

      Bzzt! That is just speculation. Don't be an asshat.

      Apple zealots can stop trying to rewrite history after the fact.

      Oh, as opposed to the bizzo's like you who make up history and report it as fact?

    7. Re:Apple DID NOT initially plan to patch Jaguar by MoneyT · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Even the statement "I don't know of any plans to patch" could easily have been translated as a no by anyone. Corporate and government doublespeak often use "I don't know of any plans" to say no, but cover their ass if plans change. But since there was no official statement from Apple, he spoke to one person, and could not even provide a direct quote, I would take the statement with a grain of salt.

      It's not different than the "anonymous sources close to the whitehouse said..." those sources could just have easily been the president or the janitor. That is why you should take anonymous statements with a grain of salt.

      No one is trying to rewrite history, as there was no definative statement from Apple.

      --
      T Money
      World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
    8. Re:Apple DID NOT initially plan to patch Jaguar by McSpew · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A) shipped Panther and B) were informed of the bug after A)

      Please tell me how Apple fixed security problems before they were informed of them? Public disclosure does not equal initial notification. Security researchers routinely privately notify software companies of their discoveries of flaws and then allow those companies time to fix the flaws before they publicly disclose them. In return, the software companies state in their press releases, something to the effect of, "XYZ software thanks Foo Bar of Baz Security Research for discovering this flaw."

      As for Microsoft, they sure as hell fixed bugs in NT 4 after Win2k shipped, as well as after XP shipped - and NT4 is EOL, so they won't fix any more bugs that are found, and there will be more bugs found in NT4.

      Clearly, you're speaking as someone who doesn't bother actually reading security notices or reading discussions on security-related mailing lists. Of course MS discovered and fixed security bugs in NT 4.0 after Win2k and XP shipped. My point was that MS frequently releases patches to existing products based on fixes to the code base that were discovered while developing new products. Microsoft has the same arrangement with security researchers that Apple does: Let us know privately about any flaws and when we finish the patch, we'll publicly give you credit for finding the flaw. This is done to give MS or Apple time to develop, test and release a patch before exploit code gets out "in the wild."

      And yes, MS has EOL'd NT 4.0, but that product is seven years old, as opposed to Jaguar, which is about a year old. You can't compare MS's decision to stop patching NT with Apple's initial reluctance to patch Jaguar. I have never heard of MS deciding to hold off on releasing a fix until a new OS version ships and then not getting around to simultaneously releasing the fix for the formerly-current-now-previous version. Even if Apple did plan to patch Jaguar all along and this is a colossal misunderstanding, their inability to coordinate updates for Jaguar and Panther simultaneously doesn't speak well of their security efforts.

    9. Re:Apple DID NOT initially plan to patch Jaguar by Lars+T. · · Score: 0
      Please tell me how Apple fixed security problems before they were informed of them?

      By accident, you fucking idiot. Do you have any indication that these bugs were in any beta of Panther? No? Than @stake must have informed Apple many months ago, and Apple fixed them immediately, but only in Panther, and then both did nothing at all until 4 days ago, when Apple supposedly told Goldsmith all of a sudden that the fix is in and it's called "upgrade to Panther". Gee, you must be pretty desperately trying to find a fly in Apple's soup to believe that.

      My point was that MS frequently releases patches to existing products based on fixes to the code base that were discovered while developing new products.

      Well, maybe you should have said so. But your too far in zealot mode to write a concise sentence.

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    10. Re:Apple DID NOT initially plan to patch Jaguar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Not everyone in Apple knows everything that's going on at every minute.

      Just like not everyone in Slashdot knows everything that's going on either. But we all still pretend that we do in order to pump up our favorite companies.

    11. Re:Apple DID NOT initially plan to patch Jaguar by alangmead · · Score: 1

      According to this message that I read on Bugtraq, http://securityfocus.com/archive/1/342825/2003-10- 30/2003-11-05/2, Chris Sysopal from @stake says "When we reported these issues to Apple they told us that they would have them fixed in the Panther release timeframe. To be honest, I assumed there would also be a patch for 10.2. We certainly didn't dictate any specific way of releasing the fixes. "

    12. Re:Apple DID NOT initially plan to patch Jaguar by pudge · · Score: 1

      However, I'd suspect if that person didn't know, they might just say, "I don't know what the plans are at this point," as opposed to saying they weren't planning to port those security updates back to Jaguar.

      Maybe he did, and Goldsmith misinterpreted or misremembered. Or, maybe he was trying to be cool and act like he knew something when he didn't. Like you.

      However, none of this changes the fact that Apple initially planned not to backport the fixes to Jaguar.

      Yes, exactly like you. It is not a fact. You have no person, you have no statement, you have absolutely nothing that proves this supposed "fact." You are trying to look cool and act like you know something when you don't. You're failing miserably.

      Read a book.

    13. Re:Apple DID NOT initially plan to patch Jaguar by MoneyT · · Score: 1

      I may not know everything that's going on, but having been an Apple customer since the early 90's I think I have a pretty damn good idea of how the company operates (or as good of an idea as a customer can get without being inside). I think I could probably make a better educated guess based on past behavior than you could based on an anonymous paraphrase.

      --
      T Money
      World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
  46. Untrue? by Rick2D2 · · Score: 0, Troll

    While a lot of the comentary that followed assumed that Apple would not be releasing patches for older versions of 10.x, the original article said nothing untrue.

    Were the vulnerabilities fixed in 10.3? Yes.
    Were the vulnerabilities patched for older versions? No.
    Did Apple comment when asked about whether they would patch older versions? No. (They did comment today).

    Just because a lot of alarmists chose to interpret these facts as meaning that Appple would not patch the vulnerabilites for older versions does not mean that the article told any untruths.

    1. Re:Untrue? by pudge · · Score: 1

      the original article said nothing untrue.

      That's false. It said "Apple Forcing Panther Upgrade for Security Patch" which was untrue. I dunno who wrote the headline, but it was a fabrication.

    2. Re:Untrue? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, they were separate issues.

      Panther had a security flaw which was patched yesterday - earlier versions didn't have the flaw, so they didn't get patched. At the same time, an entire other set of flaws that only affected 10.2 and below were announced, but Apple does not yet have a patch. There was an unsubstaniated story that Apple was planning on not releaseing a patch for 10.2 (which goes against everything the company has ever done), which Apple has today denied.

      All clear?

  47. Good point. by Trillan · · Score: 1

    Ouch. That's a good point. I never even considered investigating @stake's past advisories. From the link you posted, it looks like they have a long history of being a grey hat.

    So much for any hope they'll do better next time.

    Thanks for the information!

  48. testing updates... by NaCh0 · · Score: 1
    Can you imagine how much more difficult this would be for Apple to test?

    Yeah...we all know that it's better to apply a shitload of changes and chase the bugs than that thing called incremental testing. Patches have dependencies to determine what previous objects need to be upgraded for the current patch to work. The beauty of unix is the independence of the subsystems.

    Some were hoping that putting a unix under mac users would increase their intelligence. Apparently not.

    1. Re:testing updates... by dmabram · · Score: 1

      You missed the point. Apple can test incrementally internally. They probably do. Perhaps I should have said, "imagine how difficult this would be for apple to test and SUPPORT".

      When it comes to releasing the actual patch it makes much more sense for them to release as one large patch. Apple's user aren't you. They don't twiddle system files and compile the latest kernal in their spare time.

      There are dozens of reasons why it is easier for apple to support these patches through point release. When Grandma Memma calls up and the customer service flunky asks her what version of Mac OS she is running, it makes everyone's life easier if the flunky can tell her to go to "About This Mac" and she can read of 10.2.8. Its easier for the user to read (rather than: well it says I have 10.2 with the following combinations of patches), its easier for the tech (who is mostly trying to enter the information and follow a script).

  49. And one more example.... by masonbrown · · Score: 1

    One more example where @stake allows time to fix the issue before going public.....

    This @stake advisory was published on July 12, 2002. Under the section "Vendor Response", it states that: "Vendor was notified of these issues on May 28, 2002."

    That's pretty much a month and a half advanced notice before going public. Again, it appears that since Pingtel acknowledged their "accomplishment" with "a point by point response to the @stake advisory" they held off with the announcement. Granted, this is a completely different platform, different security implications, etc. But still, the signs point to someone throwing a temper tantrum and going very public very early, with subtle yet noticable allegations that the Apple security fix would require a $129 purchase.

  50. I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    MACHINE(1) BSD General Commands Manual MACHINE(1)

    NAME
    machine - print machine type

    SYNOPSIS
    machine

    DESCRIPTION
    The machine command displays the machine type.

    SEE ALSO
    make(1)

    HISTORY
    The machine command is currently under development.

    BSD July 26, 1991 BSD

    _______
    I don't get it. I have been trolled?

  51. Serves all those speculators right... by indros13 · · Score: 3, Funny
    ...posting unsubstantiated claims.

    But did you hear that M$ is buying Google?

    *smack*

    --
    Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
    1. Re:Serves all those speculators right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Will they have the money to after they never gave SCO $50 million?

  52. One thing missing from the advisory... by masonbrown · · Score: 1

    I didn't see the word "beleagured" anywhere in the security advisories.

    We are talking about Apple Computer, right? I often get them confused with the Beatles' record label, Apple Corps, Ltd.

  53. i call bullshit. by Random832 · · Score: 2, Informative

    machine(1)

    Description

    The machine command displays the machine type.

    double bullshit for "i386"

    --
    We've secretly replaced Slashdot with new Folgers Crystals - let's see if it notices.
    1. Re:i call bullshit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, it was a JOKE, but just to be clear:

      extremecode: {8} machine
      i386
      extremecode: {9} uname -a
      NetBSD extremecode.org 1.5.2 NetBSD 1.5.2 (WYSOFT) #0: Thu Jul 25 17:55:38 PDT 2002 wysoft@extremecode.org:/usr/src/sys/arch/i386/comp ile/WYSOFT i386
      extremecode: {10}

    2. Re:i call bullshit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Darwin iBook.local 7.0.0 Darwin Kernel Version 7.0.0: Wed Sep 24 15:48:39 PDT 2003; root:xnu/xnu-517.obj~1/RELEASE_PPC Power Macintosh powerpc

    3. Re:i call bullshit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's your point? :)

  54. THey haven't said they will fix them. by ccarter · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Apple said:

    "Apple's policy is to quickly address significant vulnerabilities in past releases of Mac OS X wherever feasible," Apple said in a statement given to MacCentral. "The shipment of Panther does not change this policy. Apple has an excellent track record of working with CERT and the open source community to proactively identify and correct potential vulnerabilities."

    Which is a nice bit of damage control but stops far of saying "We are going to patch pre 10.3 releases."

    I personally think they will fix 10.2 but I do find it unsettling that they, having been givin the opportunity *twice* to directly answer now, haven't done so with a definitive answer.

  55. I've been thinking about this... by Trillan · · Score: 1

    Although Apple doesn't give direct credit, don't they usuall provide a link to the advisory or somesuch?

  56. Re:Are you spinning the story? by ccarter · · Score: 1

    " So either you're saying the @stake people are liars. Or the bad press from the story made Apple change their minds. I'd say the latter is more likely to be true."

    Well we don't know all the details. It's possible @stake wasn't lying and it's possible Apple hasn't changed it's position.

    @Stake quite possibly was talking to a developer type when the matter came up. And when asked about the developer, being aware of development schedules and all, truthfully answered "We currently have no plans to fix 10.2". Which may have been true but still may not have been the directoin of position of Spple management.

  57. Too Late for Me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... since Apple just allowed the story to spread for a few days without issuing any correction, I and many other Mac fans I know of went out and bought Panther. This was a scam to scare us into upgrading. Next time, I'll steal the OS first, just in case.

    I know, I know, I'm the bad guy here for not "having faith" in Apple, but Microsoft would have issued a correction statement right away, and the Linux guys, from what I've seen, would've patched everybody in the first place. I'm a switcher, and Apple better learn that I switched once, I can switch back if they start to screw me.
    ~John M

  58. Funny... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Slashdot never posts corrections for any of the incorrect stories about Microsoft on the front page... is Apple sponsoring this site or what??

  59. Next conspiracy? by xmutex · · Score: 1

    I am sure the next conspiracy will be coming right up with the next Microsoft-related post here at /.

    --

    jack's bicycle is music to my ears
    1. Re:Next conspiracy? by Haeleth · · Score: 1
      I am sure the next conspiracy will be coming right up with the next Microsoft-related post here at /.
      Every post is a Microsoft-related post here at /.! Hadn't you noticed? Microsoft are behind SCO and Diebold, Microsoft are buying G5s (probably trying to keep them out of the hands of switching Windows users), Microsoft have patented the wheel, Microsoft have killed BSD, Microsoft are buying Google, Microsoft are posting dupes on Slashdot...
  60. I whole heartedly agree. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Which is why of late I rarely use my Powerbook.

    Apple has a lot going for it, but one thing lacking that really bugs the hell out of me, is usefull low level documentation.

    Your average user doesn't care about tweaking their system, they're happy if it works. The apple philosphy is simplicity.. unforentatly that simplicty comes at the expense of utility. Those few users who do unmain stream thigns with their systems, have older hardware, or use their apple hardware in conjection with non-apple hardware are offten up shit creek without a paddle.

    For the most part, the Mac comunity isn't very helpful either. The Mac comunity tends to be comprised mostly of consumers and fanboys...there aren't that many skilled hackers out there though. (This is not a bad thing, it only means that apple tends to supply. ) so there often is very limited help there.

    *shrug* ah well.

  61. Perfect code? by harvey_peterson · · Score: 1

    But I thought that they didn't need perfect code to prevent security problems

  62. Re:Let's be fair and balanced (no, really) (OT) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    And Apple really is doing a good job: I've seriously considered bringing Mac OS X (and the related hardware) in as a replacement for aging Sun hardware running Solaris.

    Heads up on using an XServe. It's really cool, but there are some Apple-particular quirks that got me when I went from using RH to using an XServe. This is with version 10.2.6 so some of these may already be addressed in Panther.

    No PDC functionality in Apple's implementation of Samba (I know this is fixed in Panther)

    DHCP does not use any MAC address filtering if you want to control it that way. The address filtering screen you see applies to Netboot devices only. (Don't know if this is "fixed" in Panther. It's just not available in 10.2.6)

    No native SCSI tape drive support in OS X Kernel. Seriously. If you install a SCSI card, you will be dependent on your backup software vendors SCSI driver solution.

    No recommended or "built-in" backup software for your files. You basically have to decide how you are going to do this keeping in mind that the HFS+ file system will not "show" resource forks to typical Unix backups like tar or dump. There is an hfstar utility available from MetaObject which is a patch to GNUtar.

    Maybe this was just my bad luck, but we have Apple Support and many of their solutions involve "reboot the server". This is usually unnacceptable in most production environments, particularly coming from a Linux background where independent processes can be killed and restarted on command. Read the man pages for "lookupd".

    You can't change the IP address on the server without re-installing the OS. No, seriously. This is according to Apple itself. Although they do provide you with an unsupported script for changing the IP. If you have already changed the IP, they recommend you re-install the OS.

    No native way to import user accounts WITH passwords. It will import /etc/passwd like information, but the password will be empty and must be created for each user using the GUI interface. There is a third party utility for that also. Or, you can set the "user changes password at next login" option.

    Permissions, work the same as on other Unixes unless you enable Apple permissions, which is recommended particularly for Dropboxes, and Group folders. However, you can only enable Apple-permissions on shared items through the GUI. Also, Apple has different ideas on how home directories should be shared.

    Things I like about XServer

    Freakin' fast, particularly with a nice XRAID and the built-in Gig NIC.

    As long as you stick with the options available on the GUI and don't try to customize the server processes, my 81 year-old grandmother can configure it.

    Holds alot of disk space in that skinny server (upto 720GB). Also, I don't notice any "speed hit" from "only" using 7200 RPM ATA drives as opposed to SCSI 10,000 RPM.

    Quiet. Unless you get the XRAID, then not so quiet.

    To summarize, if at all possible I would try to get an "evaluation server" out there to look at what services you will need to implement and how the XServer implements those services. While it does have the UNIX underpinnings, the customizations on it make it a different enough animal that a straight application of methods and "best practices" from Linux to XServer will not work.

    Of course, all standard disclaimers apply - Not an XServe expert, blah blah my experiences may not reflect those of others blah blah blah

  63. Re:Secrets by Ohreally_factor · · Score: 1

    You mean those non-voting shares that were sold long ago? Or are there other shares that you have discoverd and are ervealing for the first time?

    --
    It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
  64. Re:Secrets by Selecter · · Score: 0
    Jesus Christ. For the 8734994320976097560th time:

    Microsoft sold all their shares in Apple years ago! They dont have any shares in Apple anymore!

    Ok, my work is finished here.

  65. Remember who turns @stake by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Remember, it was an @Stake employee who got fired for pointing out that Microsoft dominance and security are issues.

    So let us not forget that @Stake is a tainted biased and are in fact Microsoft paid SOB.

    @Stake has long since lost credibility in my books.

  66. Re:Let's be fair and balanced (no, really) (OT) by Maserati · · Score: 2, Interesting

    * The "reinstall to change IP address" is actually an OpenDirectory issue, and only happens if you slected "permanent IP address" at install. Not really an OS issue.

    * SCSI drivers. These exist in /System/Library/Extensions, probably for licensing reasons. SCSI drivers is a sore button since I have a couple fo Adaptec 2906 cards that just won't run under 10.2.8. Possibly Adaptec's fault.

    --
    Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1992-1951
  67. Day late... by LostCluster · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Is it just me, or did Apple put out the patch only after the media storm? They could have killed the story yesterday simply by promising that the patch was on its way...

  68. This just in by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bill Gates was found dead in a ditch this afternoon, strangled with the cord from an Apple optical mouse. While no suspects have been identified, Slashdot has set up a database of pro-Macintosh posters and is cooperating fully with Microsoft and Federal authorities (in that order).

  69. Yak! by Fortyseven · · Score: 1

    Cripes, first I thought this meant the Atari Jaguar. I had the most puzzled expression...

  70. Sensationalism? by Mikey-San · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I only have a simple question, really:

    If the original story, about Apple not fixing security holes in Jaguar, made the front page, why didn't this?

    Fox^H^H^HSlashdot: Fair and Balanced.

    --
    Mikey-San
    Karma: +Eleventy billion (mostly affected by watching Celebrity Jeopardy)
  71. Re:Goatse-guy replaced by goatse-pumpkin! by Jon+Abbott · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Wow, a +3 offtopic post -- those are rare. Maybe we can all get it to a +5 offtopic... Here is how I think it can be done:

    - Do a couple more +1 mods to it, doesn't matter which type
    - Then have someone mod it as "offtopic" to flag it as offtopic
    - Finally, have someone mod it as an underrated, which does not carry a name change (such as "insightful", "interesting") with it. At this point it should be labeled as +5 offtopic.

  72. Ahem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Shouldn't it read "NeXT conspiracy, please!"?

  73. or maybe.... by MoFoQ · · Score: 0, Redundant

    or maybe they got scared after it was /.'ed so they decided not to indirectly force Jaguar users to upgrade to Panther and release the patch for Jag.

    Go /.!!!!

  74. They get Panther for free.... by cmdrbuzz · · Score: 1
    Anyone that bought Jaguar on the 8th Oct of later, are part of the Up to Date program.

    Which would let them update to Panther for the cost of the media.

  75. The million dollar question is... by argent · · Score: 1

    Why does anyone care?

    I mean, @stake was really scraping the barrel to find security holes. "If a third party application installs files with bad permissions, then that can be used to break security." Is there an operating system out there for which this is NOT true?

  76. Re: Macs and upgrades by King_TJ · · Score: 1

    Umm... no, certainly not. I think the reality is, it's not *anyone's* responsibility to ensure upgrade cards keep working with new OS's designed for newer machines.

    Apple had a pretty well defined set of rules of which systems supported which OS products of theirs. Anyone trying to bend those rules by purchasing 3rd. party hardware that puts CPUs in boxes never originally designed to run those CPUs is taking a chance.

    The vendors of the upgrade boards probably have some interest in making them compatible with as much new Apple software as possible - so they can keep their sales up. But ultimately, the only thing I see them really *needing* to support is their compatibility with MacOS 9.1 and earlier.

    Except for folks trying to do things a machine was never meant to do, just because they won't pay for/can't afford the right tools for the job -- the G3/G4 upgrade cards are really designed to boost the speed of a given, older Mac, running the OS's it was intended to run before the upgrade was installed.

  77. Who needs it? by t0ny · · Score: 1
    And Apple really is doing a good job: I've seriously considered bringing Mac OS X (and the related hardware) in as a replacement for aging Sun hardware running Solaris. Sun seems to be falling apart, and (especially with the G5) Apple seems to be a reasonable replacement in the mid-range compute + high I/O line of work without the vendor/service problems you get from Linux (which isn't so hot on the I/O front, since it's hampered by the IA32 architecture's crappy I/O design... other architectures don't matter, because Red Hat doesn't support them commercially).

    Ya, who the hell needs RAID-5?

    --

    Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.

    1. Re:Who needs it? by Lars+T. · · Score: 1
      Ya, who the hell needs RAID-5?

      Certainly noone too stupid to add it to a Mac. Oh, you mean you don't know how to do it?

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    2. Re:Who needs it? by t0ny · · Score: 1
      Mac 'servers', and I use the term very loosely in this case, come with, at best, RAID-0. Since you probably dont understand what Im talking about, thats mirroring.

      BTW, I dont consider something to be a server unless it has hardware RAID-5 with hotswap drivers. Something you wont see on OS X 'servers' (more like workstations).

      --

      Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.

    3. Re:Who needs it? by Lars+T. · · Score: 2, Informative
      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    4. Re:Who needs it? by SiChemist · · Score: 1



      Mac 'servers', and I use the term very loosely in this case, come with, at best, RAID-0. Since you probably dont understand what Im talking about, thats mirroring.

      You're wrong dumbass. Mirroring is RAID-1. RAID-0 is striping.

    5. Re:Who needs it? by t0ny · · Score: 1

      who gives a fuck. If it isnt striping with parity, I dont want to hear about it.

      --

      Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.

    6. Re:Who needs it? by t0ny · · Score: 0, Troll
      wow, they finally decided to build servers. Im amazed.

      Now all they need is a NOS.

      --

      Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.

    7. Re:Who needs it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed, sounds like you don't wish to hear at all.

    8. Re:Who needs it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      sounds like you have no guts at all, Mr. Anonymous Coward.

      Indeed, nobody really gives two fucks about Mac Servers (how funny that phrase is!)

      The only thing funnier than a Linux Gamer is a Mac Server.

  78. Thanks by gumpish · · Score: 1

    Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Good to hear the voice of someone who isn't a slashbot.

  79. Re:How to tell who he talked to by bdsesq · · Score: 3, Funny

    Apple did initially tell security experts they didn't plan to patch Jaguar.

    That is speculation. You have no way of knowing, unless you know exactly who said what to Goldsmith. And you don't.


    There is a very simple way to determine who Goldsmith talked to. Just check and see who was fired at Apple on Friday.

  80. Conspiracy? yeah, right by komputerguy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think it's a bit naive to swallow that Apple did this on it's own and not even consider that it was done to stop the backlash.

  81. It Did by Llywelyn · · Score: 1

    http://slashdot.org/index.pl?mode=&issue=20031 031

    --
    Integrate Keynote and LaTeX
  82. Are you actually defending MS Security performance by ErnstKompressor · · Score: 1

    I am not one to bash other OS's -- I am one to defend missinformation regarding my OS of choice though -- however, I cannot believe that you would be one to defend MS History of spotty security...Most used OS in the world I'll give you, but they are no paragon of responsibility...

    --
    We apologise for the fault in this post. Those responsible have been sacked. -- Signed RICHARD M. NIXON
  83. They do give direct credit... by andreMA · · Score: 1

    Apple does in fact give "direct" credit. In the case of the most recent patch, it may be found here, and they've done so at least since 10.2.4 as indicated here.

    1. Re:They do give direct credit... by Trillan · · Score: 1

      Ah, okay. That looks pretty reasonable to me.

  84. Re:Are you actually defending MS Security performa by McSpew · · Score: 1

    No, I was most definitely not defending MS's poor security performance. I merely pointed out that even as shoddy as MS's security efforts have been to date, even they haven't attempted to get away with something as stupid as telling their customers "Pay $129 to get the latest security fixes."

  85. Re:Are you actually defending MS Security performa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Obviously you've never actually talked to MS tech support. I have more than once been told that the correct way to fix a problem is to upgrade to the latest version. Usually another fix is available but upgrades are the official solution.

  86. Your argument is so dishonest... by ErnstKompressor · · Score: 1

    I will repeat what has, at this point, become patently clear...Apple patches older versions of it's software for free. I have used all versions of OS X, and all versions have recieved security updates for free with great regularity.

    I know a lot of folks around here expect miracles, and that is a good thing, but just because a company takes an extra week to patch a security problem that is essentially non-critical -- as opposed to criminally negligent a la MS outlook and VB script related vulnerabilities -- doesn't mean they are leaving their users out in the cold.

    I have never had to update any version of OS X for security reasons -- performance reasons, I'll give you, but never security.

    --
    We apologise for the fault in this post. Those responsible have been sacked. -- Signed RICHARD M. NIXON