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1st Real Internet-Option Election in North America

gpmap writes "From the London Free Press: As voters across Ontario were preparing to head to the polls today to elect their municipal leaders, a technological first was quietly taking place in the easternmost reaches of the province. About 100,000 voters the counties of Prescott-Russell and Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry were registered to cast their ballots online. Under a new system developed by CanVote Inc., an eastern Ontario startup company, registered voters in 11 area municipalities had the option of voting via the Internet or telephone. "I believe we're the first to do a real full Internet election in North America," said Joe Church, president of CanVote Inc. "People vote by Internet or telephone at their choice. There is no conventional ballot at all." Voters were issued a PIN number with conventional registration cards mailed to area households. Since Nov. 5, people have been logging on to a CanVote website to vote. Church said the new system makes democracy more accessible by removing such barriers to voting as limited mobility or even poor weather." Of course, systems like ProxyVote have been around for a while, but those are commercial issues, rather then state issues.

238 comments

  1. Paying by Davak · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Isn't too easy to buy votes here?

    People could just sell their PIN numbers and large banks of people sit at phones all day voting by using these bought PINs.

    1. Re:Paying by mirko · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Isn't it even easier and cheaper to buy the voting system ?
      Which guarantee do the voters have that their voice and only their voices will be counted expectedly ?

      BTW, why don't they just move their asses to the voting booth ?
      Voting is not a formality, it is supposed to be a conscious act.
      For example, you have to seriously consider a candidate's program before voting, it's not like a Slashdot poll (unless cowboy neal does politics) : who does remember which slashdot poll option he choosed 3 months ago ?

      --
      Trolling using another account since 2005.
    2. Re:Paying by jackb_guppy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It would be easy to catch that...
      Caller ID.
      Just have them call an 800 number and the reciever would know the number. Number gives you addresses that give you head counts. If to many votes from one location and PIN's do not match the addresses. You are found.

      Internet may cause a bigger issue, because of reuse of IP's. But software that IDs the NIC's MAC would help stem that problem too.

    3. Re:Paying by autocracy · · Score: 1, Funny
      who does remember which slashdot poll option he choosed 3 months ago ?
      I can you insensitive clod!
      --
      SIG: HUP
    4. Re:Paying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
      Isn't too easy to buy votes here? People could just sell their PIN numbers and large banks of people sit at phones all day voting by using these bought PINs.

      I don't understand why people have a problem with this. If I could sell my vote for $10 I certainly would since I'm not even currently registered. I mean, it just cuts to the chase really. Instead of spending millions of dollars on campaign advertising they could just buy the votes they need to win. Seems fair to me. Just don't sell your vote to the guy you like. We'd cut out a year of campaigning and profit at the same time. It's not like corporations don't already buy Congressional votes anyway.

    5. Re:Paying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I certainly hope they didn't do anything dumb like making the PIN numbers 4-6 digit consecutive numbers. :\

    6. Re:Paying by Yartrebo · · Score: 1

      At least with router (Linksys), the MAC can be changed on the fly (never tested it, but there's an entry to do so in the config). Doesn't seem like spoofing an endless list of MACs should be too hard.

    7. Re:Paying by jackb_guppy · · Score: 1

      You do not vote on router. You vote on a computer. With just traceroute, you can localize any IP, except dail-up. But back to caller ID there.

    8. Re:Paying by toofanx · · Score: 1

      It would be very easy to buy or coerce votes. Imagine some candidate secretly running a deal that would enable them to monitor people's Internet votes (by sitting beside them while they vote), in exchange for money. In the current system, the voter can always lie to a candidate, and within the privacy of the voting room, do what he/she wishes.

      This might sound like some bogus conspiracy theory. But I believe that anything that can happen will happen. The current voting system has been designed after many years of thought, to prevent various kinds of fraud. Changing seemingly minor details could have a devastating effect.

    9. Re:Paying by Tim+C · · Score: 1

      So what's to stop me writing a proxy that rewrites the packet headers to change the mac address each time?

    10. Re:Paying by diersing · · Score: 1
      Do you think the PIN is the only validation method? Like when you goto the ATM, is your PIN the only thing needed?

      Of course not, its used to authenticate based on other, specific voter information (SSN, voter registration number, mother's maiden.... whatever).

      I'm not saying the system is perfect, or unhackable (although I do hope they are at least using SSL or maybe a VPN). But your are making it out to be farce just because its using technology. Canadians, although boring and on average overweight, are not the typical fanboy you are picturing.

    11. Re:Paying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Changing seemingly minor details could have a devastating effect

      Except that where I vote, it's just a couple of old people at the table for check-in, and a curtain to hide behind while I vote. Some nefarious would-be candidate could certainly replace those 3-4 people with stand-ins who don't follow the rules exactly. I trust my ISP a lot more than those random strangers.

    12. Re:Paying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      FYI - you don't need to be registered to vote in Canada. You can just show up with your driver's licence.

    13. Re:Paying by Burlynerd · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Egad! Is this the destination we have reached via all of the bloodshed and vigorous negotiation in US history? The richest guy wins?

      We may suspect that to already be true, but we live by the illusion that our votes count.

      If we give up that important illusion, there are some not-so-mentally-stable elements of our society who might start voting with higher velocity ballots. BN

    14. Re:Paying by spectasaurus · · Score: 1

      This happens with paper ballots too though, he says as he goes about spending his $300 tax rebate brought to you by GWB.

    15. Re:Paying by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      How about a safeguard, old as the hills: sign your vote! But with a new wrinkle: the signatures are immediately validated by an image processing program at the vote server, and never associated with the vote data. We'd prevent a vote buying aggregator from merely buying a digital copy of the signature. The voting page would present a random sentence, which the voter would have to write in a box. The box would have a 5-second timeout, then present a new sentence. After n attempts, the vote would fail, and that voter would have to report to a polling place, where more traditional identification techniques would apply. At the server, software would compare the submitted writing sample, and compare it with other samples collected while voting was open, to determine that they were different. Combine that with packet route detection, so distant precincts have exclusive namespaces, and the identification can be anonymous and immediate. Tweak the sample comparison algorithm to very high intolerances, sending all the false negatives to a polling place, and the false positives will become statistically insignificant.

      The unpredicted sample text response, with server "font detectors", requires humans to submit responses, not autoreply software. The 5-second window forces an intractably large number of human standins for the bought votes. The PIN and signatures still allow the possibility of a hash table destroying anonymity of votes. But certified voting servers would store that hash, if the alogrithm actually required it, on a CD-R, which would be burned in a bonfire as the first act of tabulating the votes, destroying the association. I'm sure there are telephony versions of these techniques, like poorly spoken questions requiring touchtone reponses (avoiding voice recognition software), or voiceprint invalidation of the caller. We've still got an edge on the machines, both computational and political - use it or lose it!

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    16. Re:Paying by Spl0it · · Score: 2, Informative

      Here in Canada.. it is possible for weather to be the reason people don't come out and vote. If you've just spent an hour and 30minutes driving through the snow in a normal 25minute drive, you may think twice about the 15minute drive to the nearest polling station.

      --

      No, this is
    17. Re:Paying by emilpop · · Score: 1

      I would like to vote today but probably I won't because I WORK!!! and because of traffic I won't be able to get to the poll on time (they close at 8). So internet voting would be a good option for me.

    18. Re:Paying by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 1

      large banks of people sit at phones all day voting by using these bought PINs.

      This would be a great way to get busted for election fraud. How long do you think it would take for the elections committee to notice that the phone number for voting is being deluged by hundreds or thousands of voters who all happen to be calling from the same handful of extensions, on the same exchange, in the business center across town?

      Besides, I don't see how "I'll sell you my PIN number for $50" would be any more common than "I'll go to the polling place and vote for whomever you want for $50".

    19. Re:Paying by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      BTW, why don't they just move their asses to the voting booth ?

      I don't know about you, but if you're like most Americans you don't get Election Day off from work, and your workplace is a good 30-45 minutes away from the district where you live and am registered to vote. Going to a polling place is physically inconvenient.

      For example, you have to seriously consider a candidate's program before voting

      That's a suggestion, not a requirement. You don't think large blocs of voters always vote a straight party line regardless of individual candidate's positions?

    20. Re:Paying by mirko · · Score: 1

      In all the countries in which I have lived, votes take place on Sundays ???

      --
      Trolling using another account since 2005.
    21. Re:Paying by SmackCrackandPot · · Score: 1

      But it is possible to spoof a Caller ID name and number using a fax machine (just program in the header information).

    22. Re:Paying by geoffspear · · Score: 1
      That's a suggestion, not a requirement. You don't think large blocs of voters always vote a straight party line regardless of individual candidate's positions?

      And is everyone just supposed to abstain from elections for minor offices where there's no press coverage of the candidates positions because no one could possibly care about every candidate for every office when they're voting for like 20 different positions, most of which have no discernable effect on the voters' lives?

      That's right, I voted for the Democratic candidate for Prothonotary last week even though I have no idea what the hell a Prothonotary is supposed to do or who the candidates were.

      --
      Don't blame me; I'm never given mod points.
    23. Re:Paying by Uncle+Joe+Steel · · Score: 1

      I don't know about you, but if you're like most Americans you don't get Election Day off from work

      In the US employers are required to give you enough time off to vote

    24. Re:Paying by lightsaber1 · · Score: 1

      While I like the internet voting idea for weather/transportation/convenience, as Canadians we are entitled to up to 3 consecutive hours off work in order to vote. You have to ask for it in advance, but it is your constitutional right. So that argument has no grounds....

    25. Re:Paying by lightsaber1 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Also true in Canada. We have to ask for it, but we are constitutionally allowed up to 3 consecutive hours. Should be ample time.

    26. Re:Paying by bvk · · Score: 1

      The difference is verification. With the current system, if I tell someone I will vote for their guy for $50, no one can verify whether I did or not, since I'm alone in the voting booth and don't get a receipt.
      If the system is changed so I can vote from home with someone sitting next to me, they can make sure I actually vote the way they want before they pay me.

      This problem also exists with any system that gives you a decodable "receipt" for your vote.

    27. Re:Paying by Dashing+Leech · · Score: 1
      So that argument has no grounds

      Not the way I read it. The argument you refuted is if someone had said "My boss will not allow me to go to vote." That argument would have no grounds, but I don't think that's what the parent post meant.

      You do not get paid for the missed time, it doesn't change your deadlines, and it doesn't change how much work you have to get done. In other words, you have to make up the time somewhere, and if you have a close deadline it'll have to be soon. Taking 5 minutes to vote online versus taking a few hours to fight traffic and lineups and delaying your work means that a lot more people would likely vote.

    28. Re:Paying by Krensky · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And I highly doubt US Employers are required to pay you for that time. And anyone who doubts that you asking for time off to vote will not have a potentially negative impact come review time is a little naive. There are probably millions of folks out there who can't afford to loose that money. Not "I can't go to the movies this week" can't afford, but "I can't feed my family" or "I can't pay my gas bill" can't afford.

      I'll admit I might be wrong and they have to pay you, but I'd be surprised. I still stand by the negative attitude modifier on your review though.

    29. Re:Paying by lelnet · · Score: 1

      >I don't know about you, but if you're like most Americans you don't get Election Day off from work, and your workplace is a good 30-45 minutes away from the district where you live and am registered to vote. Going to a polling place is physically inconvenient.

      35-40 minutes? I _wish_ I'd ever lived that close to any of my workplaces. :) (Luckily I now work nights, so I get home just as the polls are opening on election days.) Lots and lots of Americans are in situations even worse than that.

      And since we're talking about Canada here, one also has to consider that the weather can be a rather bigger player in some places up there in one's ability to get to the polls than it usually would be here in the US.

      It's well worth thinking and arguing about the very real security issues involved in internet or telephone voting, but let's not pretend that "just get off your ass and go vote" is a reasonable rebuttal to the equally real problems of poll access.

    30. Re:Paying by Uncle+Joe+Steel · · Score: 1

      No the law does not require your employer to pay you. However it shouldn't even be an issue since polls in most areas are open for longer than 8 hours. Where I live the polls are usually open for 13 hours from 7 am to 8 pm. I could work a 10 hour day and still get to the polls.

    31. Re:Paying by Razor+Blades+are+Not · · Score: 1

      And in Australia, where voting is compulsory, it usually occurs on a Saturday, and you are required to have time off to go do it. No one can stop you, since you have to vote by law.

    32. Re:Paying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Close, but not quite right. First, this is not a constitutional issue. Second, if the polls close at 8pm, that means they only need let you off at 5pm. If you get off work at 4pm, you're out of luck.

      IANAL. But here's a sample of some bona fide free legal opinion for Ontario: MMB.pdf

  2. Mobility Issues by Beardydog · · Score: 3, Funny

    I wish they'd set this up where I live. I'd like to fulfill my democratic responsibility, but there's so much good TV...

  3. Good idea but... by Kr3m3Puff · · Score: 5, Insightful

    While I am fully supportive of technology, the one thing that I think might be a problem is how do you keep undue influence away from the voters? We already have a huge problem that isn't addressed in people shuttling old people to the voting poles, telling them who to exactly vote for. Now you can send them directly to their homes and say even "help" them make their selection. It will be ripe for fraud. What used to be a totally private matter can now be exploited by those who want to "stuff" the ballot box.

    I am not sure there is a perfect way, but at least voting in person in a private booth makes that person harder to influence. Heck, you could come up with automated "bots" that all you need to do is type in your PIN and "we promise to vote for all the right people to you." Heck, the social engineering issues are ripe for exploitation.

    Just because you can, doesn't mean you need to!

    --
    D.O.U.O.S.V.A.V.V.M.
    1. Re:Good idea but... by Spl0it · · Score: 1

      I don't know about you, but my GrandFather is 75 years old and he isn't going to change his vote based on some 'aid' person or a friend of the family. He votes for what he wants. Lets not assume old people are stupid, sometimes they may be gullable by new a fraud scheme but they understand the voting process better then some of us.

      --

      No, this is
    2. Re:Good idea but... by coyote-san · · Score: 1

      Bully for him, but there's no doubt that this is a serious concern.

      How many people would cave if their boss called them into the office to ensure they voted "the right way." Illegal as hell, but in the meanwhile they're unemployed and the DA is telling them that the charges probably won't be filed since they it's a "she said, he said" situation.

      How about church "voting parties" where everyone publicly "witnesses" their battle against evil in casting a public vote. People are members of churches for many reasons, and in a free election there will be some scatter from a congregation... but if everyone is praying and celebrating each vote "cast against Satan" you'll find a remarkable uniformity in the vote.

      Finally there are some sleazeballs that aren't afraid to take advantage of the elderly. Worse, our society treats them so poorly they may feel it's an honest unspoken trade to vote along party lines in exchange for some time away from the retirement prison.

      --
      For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
    3. Re:Good idea but... by Spl0it · · Score: 1

      Say no thanks and vote at home? Forget to bring your PIN to the office? Forget to take it to church? Tell them to fuckoff? This is Canada. I'm not sure where you are but no one I konw in London Ontario is going to let there boss force them to vote a certain way. You've got to be kidding me.

      --

      No, this is
    4. Re:Good idea but... by lightsaber1 · · Score: 1
      Illegal as hell, but in the meanwhile they're unemployed and the DA is telling them that the charges probably won't be filed since they it's a "she said, he said" situation.

      Seems to me you have to given a reason if you are fired. What the hell's he/she gonna write? "Failed to vote the way I wanted." Come on...let's be realistic here.

    5. Re:Good idea but... by Brandybuck · · Score: 1

      You're absolutely right. But that doesn't stop those seeking solutions to problems that don't exist.

      --
      Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
    6. Re:Good idea but... by pmz · · Score: 1

      Seems to me you have to given a reason if you are fired.

      Nope. Some states have "at-will employment," where people can get fired for no reason at any time and people can quite for no reason at any time. It's a double-edged sword that is very convenient for employees who are tired of their job but also convenient of companies who are tired of their employees. In the end, it really is an issue of personal liberty, to not be tied by the balls to a particular company and vice versa.

    7. Re:Good idea but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      right, some STATES. Note, STATES, not provinces- This is Canada, we can't help it if the system won't work in the STATE of your choice because of some absurd law that allows an employer to dismiss without cause.

    8. Re:Good idea but... by lightsaber1 · · Score: 1
      In Canada we have these things called rights. We have the right to be told why we are being fired and to fight it if it is unjust, particularly if the employer has asked you to do something illegal or "immoral" -- it works in the military too. Btw, don't ask me to define immoral, I'm not a lawyer, but illegal would include the scenario in question.

      We also have responsibilities. We have the responsibility to fulfill our contract, whatever that says, whether it's 2 weeeks notice or whatever, but I've never heard of anyone being legally bound to a job for life.

      Of course, we could always just do like Office Space and stop going...but that's not very Canadian now is it?

    9. Re:Good idea but... by pmz · · Score: 1

      In Canada we have these things called rights.

      Actually, I don't mind at-will employment. It makes the employment contract short and sweet, and it makes my rights very clear. The only thing beyond the one-page employment contract is some stuff about proprietary information, five years, etc., but that's it.

      Also, we have the right to ask why we were fired, but there is no implied obligation other than basic courtesy for the employer to provide an answer.

      I've never heard of anyone being legally bound to a job for life.

      No, but there can be cases regarding the length of contracts, etc.

    10. Re:Good idea but... by lightsaber1 · · Score: 1
      Actually, I don't mind at-will employment.

      Sure it's great when you know the employment will be short term, but if you're looking for a career job, I don't think it's very fair.

      Also, we have the right to ask why we were fired, but there is no implied obligation other than basic courtesy for the employer to provide an answer.

      We then have the right to sue for wrongful dismissal if we feel the reasoning was unjust, at which point the employer will be required to explain his/her reasons. This may not get your job back, but should provide a decent severance package. Besides, do you really want to work for someone who would do this?

      Sure the employer could lie and make it hard to win the case, but it seems to me that a) that's what lawyers are for, and b) purgery has much more severe consequences than wrongful dismissal.

    11. Re:Good idea but... by pmz · · Score: 1

      if you're looking for a career job, I don't think it's very fair.

      This requires finding a career-oriented company and/or career, first. They are fairly rare, now, but this might reverse as people recover from the late 1990's economic orgy.

      Besides, do you really want to work for someone who would do this?

      If the employer was really bad, their behavior would cause attrition, which affects their bottom line. High turnover kills projects and businesses very effectively, because once it starts, it is very hard to stop until management fixes the root cause.

      Also, "wrongful dismissal" sounds pretty bad, as if a person is somehow entitled to a particular job. If an employer is tempermental or a bigot, then they should be allowed to dig their own pit and rot there without anyone's sympathy, and employees shouldn't be forced in any way to sink into that pit, as well.

  4. One remaining barrier... by Faust7 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Church said the new system makes democracy more accessible by removing such barriers to voting as limited mobility or even poor weather.

    I'll give him that. The one barrier it doesn't remove, however, is the economic one that provides Internet access to some but far from all. Millions of poor households receive monthly telecom discounts on just their phone lines--how/why could they shell out for even dialup service? Low-income citizens still constitute an enormous chunk of the non-voting population, which is big enough in itself.

    1. Re:One remaining barrier... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Need to carefully...



      ... voting via the Internet or telephone. ...

    2. Re:One remaining barrier... by swillden · · Score: 4, Informative

      The one barrier it doesn't remove, however, is the economic one that provides Internet access to some but far from all.

      The article says they can vote via phone. So you only have to make sure that everyone has access to a telephone, which seems reasonable.

      However, there are still problems with this scheme: vote buying/coercion and lack of verifiability being the main ones.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    3. Re:One remaining barrier... by Dun+Malg · · Score: 1
      The one barrier it doesn't remove, however, is the economic one that provides Internet access to some but far from all. Millions of poor households receive monthly telecom discounts on just their phone lines--how/why could they shell out for even dialup service? Low-income citizens still constitute an enormous chunk of the non-voting population, which is big enough in itself.

      This all assumes, of course, that the reason the poor don't vote is accessability issues. I suspect it's more a problem of not having anything worth voting for. When it's essentially a choice between two slick jackasses in suits, neither of which represent your interests, why even bother voting?

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    4. Re:One remaining barrier... by Jordan+Bell · · Score: 1

      There is a pretty good economic argument for using electronic voting systems.

      When people don't care that much about politics and the outcome of an election, they can be said to have a fairly low reservation price (critical point) for voting. That is, voting is not worth much to them. But it is still likely worth something; just not quite high enough to leave the house for it. By letting someone watch TV and vote, even though it may annoy advocates of civil participation, the hassle of voting will probably be small enough that it is less than the critical point of action for voters, changing them from `not voting' to `voting'.

      If you think that more people voting (and just because they don't care a lot about voting doesn't mean they will choose randomly, just that they don't care a lot about the results of the elction), then this is a good thing. If you believe that people should only vote after serious and long thought, then this is probably a bad thing.

    5. Re:One remaining barrier... by pmz · · Score: 1

      When it's essentially a choice between two slick jackasses in suits, neither of which represent your interests, why even bother voting?

      To vote for the Libertarian canidate, who isn't a jackass, but everyone calls him that anyway. Why is it that the platform that can reverse the morbid obesity of the government gets badmouthed for taking soup away from Little Tommy, when it's the Democrats who took Little Tommy's dad's job away in the first place through overtaxation and protectionist legislation?!?

    6. Re:One remaining barrier... by Dun+Malg · · Score: 1
      When it's essentially a choice between two slick jackasses in suits, neither of which represent your interests, why even bother voting?

      To vote for the Libertarian canidate, who isn't a jackass, but everyone calls him that anyway. Why is it that the platform that can reverse the morbid obesity of the government gets badmouthed for taking soup away from Little Tommy, when it's the Democrats who took Little Tommy's dad's job away in the first place through overtaxation and protectionist legislation?!?

      Hey, as a libertarian myself, I'm with you 100%. I've just given up any real hope of seeing a change in the two-party system. Too much inertia.

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
  5. Improve Voter Turnout? by Davak · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In the last provincial election, for example, only about 55 per cent of the Ontario voters turned out to the polls.

    The article really plays up out bad voter turnout is... however, US voter turnout is also right around 50%.

    I hate when an article stresses facts that are the normal to push for some radical changes. I agree that non-traditional voting will be a welcomed change. However, don't suggest that Ontario needs it because their turnout is so horrible.

    Davak

    1. Re:Improve Voter Turnout? by jackb_guppy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      55% is horrible and 50% is even worst!

      What they have done is come up with plan that can people vote without added paper work like absentity voting. It a weather a storm, and maybe a power failure (telephones tend to work).

      So what would have happened on election day and the North-East went dark?

    2. Re:Improve Voter Turnout? by zerblat · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Sure, but compare that to the turnout numbers for other countries. Having only half of the elegible voters voting is a huge democratic problem. If you can't even get a majority of the population to bother to vote, something must be wrong and radical changes are needed.

      Of course, voting from your home seems like an extremely bad idea and an even bigger democratic problem than low turnout. There's no way to ensure that the voter actually voted independently if they voted from home -- it makes it possible to threaten/pay people to vote for your candidate and make sure they actually voted that way.

      --
      Please alter my pants as fashion dictates.
    3. Re:Improve Voter Turnout? by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 1

      Having only half of the elegible voters voting is a huge democratic problem. If you can't even get a majority of the population to bother to vote, something must be wrong and radical changes are needed.

      Or, it might also be a sign that half the population feels quite secure in their current form of government, and don't feel the need to. For instance, Switzerland @ 37.7%, according to your cite. Would you say that radical changes are needed there? I'd be willing to bet most Swiss don't.

      Quite a few Western countries are in the 40-60% range of turnout.
      Switzerland
      Poland
      Lichenstein
      Japan
      Canada
      France
      USA

      Now look at countries where there is a lot of voter turnout. Places where there ahs been significant unrest as of late.
      Palestine
      Sri Lanka
      Germany (reconsolidation of East and West)
      Tajikistan
      Slovakia
      South Africa
      Israel
      Czech Republic


      If a large percentage came out and voted all the time, that could just as easily mean that the people are not secure in their current form of government, and do wish a radical change.

      Agreed though that voting online at home is an idea that need to die a quick death.

    4. Re:Improve Voter Turnout? by mrtroy · · Score: 1

      Who cares about the US?

      55% is low for canada, and other countries across the world

      And we would like to get these numbers up, even if they are higher than american numbers.

      I mean, not all countries want to be like the US, and their lack of voting and other things I dont want to bother getting into.

      But lets leave the US out of this. The numbers are low for ontario, so the numbers are low.

      --
      [I can picture a world without war, without hate. I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it]
    5. Re:Improve Voter Turnout? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but isn't that 50% of *eligible* voters who bothered to *register* to vote voted, not 50% of eligible voters? I believe the turnout of eligible voters who vote is closer to the 15-20 percentile.

      http://www.fec.gov/pages/htmlto5.htm

    6. Re:Improve Voter Turnout? by Insightfill · · Score: 1
      I hate when an article stresses facts that are the normal to push for some radical changes.

      Obligatory example: you can often get a knee-jerk reaction out of someone if you tell them that in the US, 40% of all sick days are taken on Monday or Friday.

      Common reactions include "slacker" and "lazy", when a moment's pause will convince you that nothing's amiss.

    7. Re:Improve Voter Turnout? by pyropaul · · Score: 1

      Of course, the 50% in the US is much worse as it was only 50% of the registered electorate and, if I recall correctly, something like 33% of eligible electors didn't register. This gives an effective turnout of something like 33% or less.

    8. Re:Improve Voter Turnout? by doktor-hladnjak · · Score: 1
      Yeah, but isn't that 50% of *eligible* voters who bothered to *register* to vote voted, not 50% of eligible voters? I believe the turnout of eligible voters who vote is closer to the 15-20 percentile.

      http://www.fec.gov/pages/htmlto5.htm

      The chart on that page explicitly says "% T/O of VAP=Percent Turnout of Voting Age Population". That has nothing to do with the registered population. It's just (# of voters) / (approx. # of citizens over 18).

      Interestingly enough, the percentage of registered voters who actually vote is typically much higher (around 80%+). Some info from the 2000 election.

    9. Re:Improve Voter Turnout? by RevMike · · Score: 1

      it might also be a sign that half the population feels quite secure in their current form of government, and don't feel the need to.

      You're right on the money.

      In the USA and Canada, at least, there is broad consensus on the structure of government and its relationship with the people. Ideas such as "abolition of private property" or "state sanctioning of a particular religion" are far outside the platforms of any non-fringe political movement.

      We have a few parties whose platforms tend to be slightly right or left of center. If half the people don't vote, it means that the details where those platforms differ don't matter to them. They know that, the morning after the election, they'll still be able to go to the church they want to go to, and that they still aren't in grave risk of being arrested and held without trial.

      The fallacy of expecting 100% voter turnout is the idea that 100% of the voters have an issue important to them which will be decided in that election.

    10. Re:Improve Voter Turnout? by addaon · · Score: 1

      So what would have happened on election day and the North-East went dark?

      The same thing that happened on 9/11 (which, incidentally, was an election day in new york). All votes previous to that time are discarded, election is rescheduled for a different date.

      --

      I've had this sig for three days.
    11. Re:Improve Voter Turnout? by coyote-san · · Score: 1

      Flat comparisons are meaningless since many countries have compulsary voting. I think it's a 100 AUS fine in Australia, for instance, and other countries are probably comparable.

      So you may get 95% turnout... but how many of those voters really give a damn about the election? I bet you'll find the same 50% or so who made some effort to learn the issues, and the rest are voting at random or worse voting based on the briefest familiarity with the issues based on the TV ads.

      --
      For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
    12. Re:Improve Voter Turnout? by pmz · · Score: 1

      Common reactions include "slacker" and "lazy", when a moment's pause will convince you that nothing's amiss.

      My knee-jerk reaction was "what if we aren't assuming a five-day workweek with weekends off?"

  6. Vote Early & Vote Often by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Voters, please remember to delete your browser's cookie file before voting again.

  7. No body: "PIN Number" is redundant. "PIN", please. by JessLeah · · Score: 3, Insightful

    No body: "PIN Number" is redundant. "PIN", please.

  8. Audits? by Arker · · Score: 4, Insightful

    An even bigger concern I see with it is auditability. There's no paper trail, how can you verify that your vote was counted correctly? If someone cracks their database and changes the results, how would you even know? How could you possibly have any confidence in a poll without a paper trail?

    --
    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    1. Re:Audits? by diersing · · Score: 5, Informative
      I think Enron cured me of my need to validate things on paper.

      The same way databases can be altered so can paper (here I come with a bucket full of ballots and whooops, into the trash they go where I've cleverly hid a similar bucket with the results I want to be counted). If you have all faith in paper ballots please research Louisiana election fraud, apparently in the mighty south, the dead rise to vote every year - the buggers.

    2. Re:Audits? by basingwerk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I am concerned as well. I suppose you could develop a device that is writable once only, such as paper tape. Certain types of CDROM might work. The results of the voting would be written in real-time onto a serial log file on the write-once media. The results would also be written simultaneously to a standard RDBM system. This would be the operational system used to record the votes. If there were any dispute, a procedure would exist to allow the write-once media to be copied and supplied to a third party to recount the votes. Any discrepancy would show up at this point. They would not have access to the original write-once media, nor the standard RDBM system data, so it would not be possible for them to re-make the changes. Even if they did make changes, the copy would not tally with the original write-once media anyway! Of course, at some point, you have to trust the system. But isn't that true with paper-based technology also?

      --
      I stole this .sig
    3. Re:Audits? by matchlight · · Score: 1


      I think that there are other auditing methods that people often forget. Electronic auditing has the benefit of using encryption and redundant remote storage locations.
      For example:
      Take a series of 1000 votes and run MD5 against them to get a unique id. I send that id to 3 remote servers over encrypted channels where they are then written, encrypted, to the filesystem.
      Repeat this for all votes.
      Now when counting or recounting is done the votes are checked against the remote MD5 values to ensure that no changes have occured.
      You can be as vigilant as you want adding more remote servers and increasing encryption as long as the hardware supports it.
      I agree that a paper trail is a fine method of auditing but with some thought there are other ways to ensure every vote gets counted.

    4. Re:Audits? by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      You've still got your need to valiudate on paper, as do the rest of us. You've just lost your faith in physical evidence. But the bags of shredded paper at Arthur Anderson, Enron's "auditors", destroyed Anderson, incriminated many people over there, might well incriminate Enron yet. Physical acts leave many physical remains in our complex material world. The physical evidence gives prosecutors a chance to prove the acts were committed. While virtual acts, committed with electrons and photons in electromagnetic media, leave virtually no trace. And emerging quantum computing, so well suited to statistical computation of large populations, apparently can leave literally *no* trace, particularly in the case of electron entanglement encryption. So we must act now to enshrine the physical evidence (a paper trail, etc) in law, precedent, and practice. Or we won't have a ghost of a chance to audit these elections, which should become much more widespread, not more endangered.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    5. Re:Audits? by diersing · · Score: 1

      Can an online voting mechanism not immediately print a receipt (in the election center and on the voter's home printer)? When I run my credit card is that not virtual? Is my signed receipt not a paper trail for consumer and vendor and credit card mogul? Where a statement is then mailed to all parties for personal verification (and challenge in case of discrepancy).

    6. Re:Audits? by AKnightCowboy · · Score: 2, Insightful
      An even bigger concern I see with it is auditability. There's no paper trail, how can you verify that your vote was counted correctly? If someone cracks their database and changes the results, how would you even know?

      I've got an old Epson dot-matrix printer and a couple boxes of 5000 sheets of perforated paper I could contribute to the election if anyone's interested. There's no reason the interface couldn't be printing out the results in realtime on paper at the same time they're written to a database. Why does this have to be so complex? If the database is suspect then simply examine the printout to find the discrepencies.

    7. Re:Audits? by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      If you've printed a receipt, and the server's printed a ballot, then there's not a paper trail - there's two paper trails. How does a voter verify that his paper ballot at the server is being printed correctly, or being collected for counting? How do the election officials know that a receipt, collected for a recount, was not forged by someone who "changed their mind"? A single paper trail creates an info bottleneck that can be used to prove the unique data flowing through it was actually shared by the two parties during the transaction. Keeping a receipt copy of the ballot, while beneficial, is useful only to remind the voter what they voted, if they later have doubt in a contested election. The ballot itself must be verified by the voter, passing through their hands on the way to the ballot box. The voting machine that prints the ballots must become merely a fancy typewriter, making it easier for the decoupled ballot counting machine to count the uniformly printed ballots. That still leaves the counting of the collected paper ballots to be policed, but we have lots of physical security techniques to rely on. We certainly don't need to rely on trusting the voting machines, or the companies that supply them.

      Your credit card is based on trust. The receipt has passed through the hands of the vendor into yours, but it's rarely tested for forgery (or even existence) as evidence by the credit company. They are insured against loss, fraudulent or otherwise. And vendors' dependency on them lets them rescind even "doubtful" transactions, so they reduce false positives and false negatives in disputes. Vendors in turn can be insured against such losses. Now if only voters could buy "election insurance" - it's already available for candidates, in the form of voting machine company stock blocks!

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    8. Re:Audits? by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      Burn the logfile with encrypted signatures from an Internet timeserver, and the serial order of the data can be validated, to prevent later tampering. Distribute the results on separate physical systems, and the results become a lot safer.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    9. Re:Audits? by diersing · · Score: 1
      Look on your credit card receipt, there is an approval sequence number that guarantees its authentic (in case it needs verified). The ballot system could use a control number in addition for validation.

      From the sounds of it we're going to agree to disagree, which is fine and good and healthy for debate.

      On a side note, are you against technology based voting or just this system? Do you think paper ballots (chads or not) is the end-all be-all system for elections?

      It just seems to me (as someone who doesn't vote because the long lines, restrictive times and travel distance... I would welcome a more convienent system), right or wrong, we're already trusting computing systems to track our bank accounts, credit cards and other sensitive unique information, why not our votes?

    10. Re:Audits? by Spl0it · · Score: 1

      You assuming every connection and vote via the webpage is not logged seperately. Your also assuming that all the phone conversations, data exchanged and votes placed are not stored per operator plus in the database.

      --

      No, this is
    11. Re:Audits? by Arker · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Say I vote for X, and someone has compromised the system that wants Y to win. So my vote is registered for Y, both in the database and in the printout. How do I, the voter at home, know this has happened?

      I don't, and your paper trail at the counting computer won't give anyone a clue either.

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    12. Re:Audits? by Arker · · Score: 1

      Actually I'm not assuming that at all. They can all be logged separately, they can still be changed as they occur or at any time thereafter, without leaving any evidence.

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    13. Re:Audits? by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      Sure - is the CC receipt approval sequence number a crypto signature of the receipt data? If not, then I could just copy that number to a forgery. I suppose a ballot receipt could do so as well. I am wary of generating records of the votes that are not protected to ensure their secrecy until the totals are published, and whose anonymity is not guaranteed. A vote buyer could enforce their purchase by demanding a voter's receipt to be filled. While vote buyers can't intimidate individuals who could sell their vote, and renege in the anonymous voting booth.

      Technology is required for all but voice acclaimation and "show of hands" voting. Machines where I pull a lever, or even pencil in a bubble, use technology that has been beta tested for generations, and their failure modes are understood enough to be detectable and preventable. But swift counts make elections actually feel like the interactive process among the constituency that we need them to be. So I favor a "bionic" technology: physical buttons, that voters already know how to operate (and spot failing) by the time they're adults; paper ballots the voter personally verifies, and optical scanner counts. The optical counts are used for the early reporting. Any contested results (requestable by *anybody*, no questions asked) are human-recounted in a large distributed process. Results can be published immediately, including recount requests, but not until any and all recounts are completed are the results legal. We've got 2.5 months between voting and inauguration - we can use them to catch mistakes in the process.

      I think this Canadian experiment will be very instructional to us, including here in the US where we won't be directly affected by its results in eastern Ontario ;). See another post of mine in this thread suggesting a patch to improve the CanVote security. I also favor extending "Election Day" to the entire month of November, or maybe October, which offers much better weather for a day off in our country. I'd make it a floating federal holiday, with every employee allowed to take off one day in that month to go vote, and then a verrry long lunch. Make a three day weekend, and vote remotely from the hotel. That would encourage workers to "get out" and vote.

      Financial transaction info is not unique: it's a commodity. Refunds and insurance can replace lost dollars with identical new ones. There's no "undo" for a failed election: the damage is done forever, and the lost time under misleadership can never be recovered. Let's disagree until we've learned enough about each other's position to develop and adopt a mutually agreeable one :).

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    14. Re:Audits? by Spl0it · · Score: 1

      Assuming the logs are accessible at the time of the election and that they can be read, also assuming that there are not backup's, time stamps and other checks in place.

      --

      No, this is
    15. Re:Audits? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everyone has a right to vote, even the dead.

    16. Re:Audits? by AKnightCowboy · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Say I vote for X, and someone has compromised the system that wants Y to win. So my vote is registered for Y, both in the database and in the printout. How do I, the voter at home, know this has happened?

      How do you know the volunteers at the local elementary school don't take the ballot box full of punch cards out back and toss them into the incinerator? You don't.

    17. Re:Audits? by jc42 · · Score: 1

      [H]ow can you verify that your vote was counted correctly?

      While that's obviously desirable, it is nowhere near sufficient. Note the recent discussion of the Diebold-memo fiasco, in which we read the explanation for the funny declaration by the media that Bush had won Florida by a good margin, and then this was retracted the next day. It seems that in one precinct, the Diebold voting equipment did report a correct vote total, but it also sent in a second report that Gore had received -16022 votes. The tallying code didn't do the obvious sanity check here, and it took a while for someone to notice the "interesting" total.

      In this case, it seems that the correct total was sent in, so auditing to verify that the votes were counted correctly wouldn't have spotted the problem. They were counted correctly.

      There are many ways to tweak an election, other than not counting someone's vote correctly. You have to determine that dead people haven't voted. You should also make sure that the equipment isn't just making up voters. (There have been many cases of more votes being cast than there were registered voters in the district.) You need to flag negative votes. You should verify that the numbers in the total boxes are actually the correct totals of what was supposed to be added. You need to understand the concept of an "integer overflow". And so on.

      There was also the quote from Diebold's CEO to a group of Ohio Republicans, to the effect that he promised them that in the next election, he would deliver Ohio to Bush. Coming from an officer of the company that makes the voting equipment, this is not an idle boast. But the right answer isn't to go after him; it's to make sure that nobody can make good on such promises. And the Republicans are far from the only political group that is looking for this sort of support.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    18. Re:Audits? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I live in the 905 area code outside of Toronto and I agree with diersing. Paper is just as easy to be dishonest with. Dishonesty is a fact of life. That should not stop us from injecting true democracy into our societies by increasing peoples access to participate directly in the country's decision making process.

      You can either choose to see this as positive or negative issue. I prefer to see it as a positive step forward in freedom. Yes there may be a few rotten apples but isn't that always the case? Personally I want more access to my government. The more chances I have to give my input the better I will feel about the country's decisions.

      PEACE from the 905 ;-)

    19. Re:Audits? by Pakaran2 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not if the system is closed source, and records the wrong votes. That's why we need a paper trail. That simple.

    20. Re:Audits? by diersing · · Score: 1
      I live near Indianapolis, in my hometown there are problems counting (I use this example because in local/municipal elections, every vote does count). If this was an technology based system (for those that wish to do it electronically) the web interface would prevent them from filling out the form incorrectly and bunch of officials wouldn't have to sit around trying to decide the voter's intent (and since they can't, the ballot is disqualified).

      The Gore/Bush Florida hanging chad fiasco was another problem with determining voter intent. Agreed, in Florida where the old people go to die, a technology based system might not work. Can you imagine, all the retirees standing there waiting for cash to come out of the voting machines?

      Its dangerous and irresponsible to force a web based system on people, but I think it would vastly improve voter turnout among... say college students, military personnel, and mobile professionals that have trouble finding time to vote. Either because they're attending a school that is far removed from their registered county, traveling on business, or stationed out of the country. Of course they can vote absentee ballot, but consider races are declared and candidates concede on election night, those absentee ballots aren't counted for days/weeks after. Those votes, in some sense, don't count.

      I think Oregon might have the plan for the future. Offering a more flexible and convenient way of voting.... I wanna say in 2002 when this was implemented they shattered records for voter turn out.

      I'm not one to drop links into stuff, please take a look at the Oregon link, as the act details it's system for audit, correction and remediation that I think you might find interesting in relation to this discussion.

    21. Re:Audits? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      From an investigative standpoint, altering paper trails leave two things:

      1) Witnesses
      2) Physical evidence

      It is a lot harder to alter physical evidence than it is to run an SQL statement.

    22. Re:Audits? by matchlight · · Score: 1


      Ok, once again I don't disagree with how well paper trail works. I'm saying that there are other ways to ensure database tampering doesn't happen, as was in your original post.

      As for recording wrong votes, you're making some assumptions that the created paper would be error free.
      For instance, lets say you are voting for the new president and choose Bob. The computer records this to the db and prints out a record. The db says Bob, the paper, in English says Bob but the computer readable code on the paper says Joe.

      As an aside, consider that I can print out several Joe votes and stuff them into a container and complain that the system has been hacked. If the system were open source, this would be easier to do wouldn't it?

      Regardless, it is inevitable that the paper trail will no longer be a useful method for auditing. It barely works now as a main method given the vast number of votes to count. And it's also not the favored method of voting by trees.

    23. Re:Audits? by Webmonger · · Score: 1

      At elections, there are people who validate the ballots from all interested parties. Something like that is bound to be noticed.

    24. Re:Audits? by Pakaran2 · · Score: 1

      As for paper consumption - my second girlfriend worked in a computer lab here at UB. Suffice it to say that the amount of printing that happens here in a day is probably up there with the voting receipts for this entire suburb - and a fair amount of it is people doing things like printing the works of Shakespeare instead of buying them.

      Why not require the voter to put a vote in the shredder to "cancel" a vote, and put the correct vote in the ballot box - and have the shredder check some kind of checksum to see that it's canceling a valid vote. That way you can't print and use 3 votes, or whatever.

      The paper trail, without computer readable data, could be used for a hand recount - keep in mind that many places in the Commonwealth do a hand count the first time. It's a matter of how much money you want to invest.

    25. Re:Audits? by mcc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You can register to be an election monitor. If you do this you get to sit there and watch the entire process. If they throw stuff in the trash, you see it.

      You could register to sit there by the e-vote server and watch the audit printout scroll by you, if you wanted. But you could not physically look inside the computer and see if someone between that piece of paper and the voter is somehow tampering with the incoming bits. You can't look at the hard drive and know that the election executable is the same executable that was certified. You can run a checksummer on the executable, perhaps, but how do you trust the checksummer?

      There are perhaps situations under which electronic voting could be a good thing. But it is fundamentally incompatible with the sort of openness that is vital to a healthy election system.

    26. Re:Audits? by Adam9 · · Score: 1

      Just don't run the checksummer from the ballot machine. Store it as a read-only exe on a USB device, plug it in, run the checksummer on the ballot program. Tada. Oh.. couldn't it just be open source? I guess that idea only works on Slashdot and not in the real world.

    27. Re:Audits? by adam+arndt · · Score: 1

      - One election monitor cannot monitor all paper votes as the paper voting process is geographically disbursed. Online they can.
      - A paper audit trail is useless as it does not confirm vote inclusion. Online voting can via a PKI voting tool. Make that an OSS voting tool.
      - A paper trail is useless as any losing candidate will want the paper ballots counted, and so we have paper elections again + cost of the electronic channels.
      - Internet voting is in its infancy. Touch screen voting is 20 yrs old and very tired; it ain't going to get much better. Internet voting, along with IPv6 yadda yadda gives lots of room for strong systems to evolve.
      - Allowing multiple voting and multiple channels would help prevent coercion of remote voters ("family voting") as well as the Digital Divide.
      - More voting convenience will allow governments to make voting compulsory. It's your civic duty. Get off your couch and go into the study and vote!

      --I like yummy stuff.

    28. Re:Audits? by Razor+Blades+are+Not · · Score: 1

      - you don't want just one election monitor. The checks and balances require many of them, geographically disbursed, to reduce the chances of corruption. One person monitoring everything can be bribed. Thousands all over the country, from different political backgrounds, cannot.
      - an internet vote cannot be reliably recounted without some sort of physical record. Recounts don't happen in every instance in any case - so that cost is only incurred in circumstances where the vote is close or there is suspicion of fraud. Besides - which cost is higher ? The loss of confidence in your democratic process or the material cost of a recount ?

    29. Re:Audits? by adam+arndt · · Score: 1

      We're witnessing the cost of a poor democratic process. The "president" is going to start wwIII! Elected on paper, too.

      My point about election monitors was a theoretical one - sure, there should always be lots of `em - with an Internet system, they can all watch all votes, and all watch each other.

      Critics of new voting tech usually say we should stick with paper. It's easy to say "paper will be fine for NNN years when there will be MMM of us". Throw in fairer, more modern counting systems like STV and each paper ballot has to be counted several times. Allow voting for party members, the paper ballot grows into an A3 or A2 (no joke!) size. Usability/turnaround etc get out of hand.

      I don't think democracy should be cheaper - let people vote on paper if they want. We just need to offer more channels; few aspects of life at the time of the emergence of ballot voting are the same. We at least need more ways to vote. "To offer choice is to be modern, to not offer a choice is not modern" - MORI (mori.com).

      If we can make voting very convenient, then we can make it compulsory. That'll fix a lot of stuff that's bust at the moment.

  9. I lived there... by Black+Rabbit · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...and I'll tell you, if this works anything like some of the municipal services, they're fscked! Prescott-Russell is a backwater. Half the places there are still on dialup, for starters. The road and water systems are a shambles. My ex is going to have to shell out an extra $2K this year to help upgrade everything. Never a cop in sight, so the kids in their damn rice-boy POS cars run rampant on the residential streets. Meanwhile, the little guy in his white pickup who enforces municipal bylaws seems everywhere, looking for those hapless individuals who run their lawn sprinklers on the wrong day, or have a hedge 6 inches too high. Shows where the priorities are. I think this election is going to be a farce!

    1. Re:I lived there... by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 1

      Prescott-Russell is a backwater. Half the places there are still on dialup, for starters.

      Oh my god! What SAVAGES!

  10. Is your vote kept secret? by simonesteban · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Whoever has access to the records:
    pin xxx -> voted for yyy and pin xxx -> is person zzz, could apply the transitive property: person zzz -> voted for yyy.

    At least with low technology (cross on paper), your vote is mixed with several others.

    1. Re:Is your vote kept secret? by johneee · · Score: 1

      True, true... Which is why code audits are important, so you know that all it stores is:

      personzzz = pin xxx & has voted.
      candidate fff = candidate fff + 1

      --
      - ------- There are ten kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who... Huh?
    2. Re:Is your vote kept secret? by GigsVT · · Score: 1

      And then there's no way to recount or check the results.

      --
      I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
    3. Re:Is your vote kept secret? by pmz · · Score: 1

      apply the transitive property

      It doesn't even take whizz-bang mathematics.

      FBI wiretap, phone technician with his magic alligator-clip hand-held phone, person with wireless-phone sniffing scanner, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc......

      Telephone voting is the stupidest thing ever. I really hope Canada isn't proud of this one!

  11. Issues with online voting... by LinuxParanoid · · Score: 4, Interesting


    One subtle problem with online voting is that it's much easier for a third-party to coerce your vote and to check that you voted "correctly". The third-party (an employer, union official, local mob boss, etc) can "encourage" you to make sure you vote at an online facility where they are watching... and there goes the privacy of the polling place and the anonymity of the ballot box.

    Of course, in earlier times this was recognized as an issue with absentee voting. The solution that traditional voting systems adopted was to allow the voter to vote in person later at a real polling place, and that vote, (presumably more free of coercion), would invalidate their earlier vote.

    I wonder if CanVote provided a similar "vote override" option for Ontario citizens? A polling place vote should always override an alternative-mechanism vote. I hope in the move to online voting we don't lose the non-obvious protections that have been added to our current electoral system over time.

    --LP, a programmer who also supports voter-verified paper trails

    1. Re:Issues with online voting... by Talthane · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That also raises the interesting idea of being able to override your own vote later because you've changed your mind (seen a new broadcast debate, for example). You could thus have a constant online poll during the election period which monitors how the campaign is going.

      And from there, why not have that system running permanently? Direct democracy in action - do something stoopid one day, get instantly voted out of office.

      Assuming you can guarantee security, integrity etc. But it would mean politicians had no choice other than to act according to the public's views.

      Oh, right, that's why it won't happen....

      --
      "This is why men never share their feelings; because women always remember." -Just Shoot Me.
    2. Re:Issues with online voting... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You wouldn't want the public *constantly* making all choices... 1) The flaws of pure direct democracy were demonstrated by the Greeks in the way Athens carried out their military foreign policy, switching between sending out ships to war, and ordering them to turn around, all within a week, based on whichever convincing speaker appeared most recently in the ongoing public debates. And 2) the public has to spend more time on these things to make good decisions then and I'm not convinced that is economically efficient.

    3. Re:Issues with online voting... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Direct democracy -- aka the rule of the mob? No, thanks. California can keep its problems to itself.

    4. Re:Issues with online voting... by Idarubicin · · Score: 1
      And from there, why not have that system running permanently? Direct democracy in action - do something stoopid one day, get instantly voted out of office.

      Assuming you can guarantee security, integrity etc. But it would mean politicians had no choice other than to act according to the public's views.

      Ah yes, mob rule. That's always healthy.

      Nominally, our elected officials are chosen to act as agents to represent our needs and views. They are supposed to do the work of government full time. They often have access to more and better information, faster. We are supposed to choose people we can trust to represent us, and we in turn expect them to make reasoned decisions.

      In many places, government officials poll on hot button issues nearly constantly anyway--if they choose to vote for an unpopular measure, maybe it is because they have a good reason for so doing.

      What if CNN, or Fox News, or plain vanilla NBC decided that it didn't like a particular politician? One quick smear campaign could end a career. The spontaneous recall, without any sort of cooling-off period, without any sort of thought, without any sort of reasoned debate, is a recipe for chaos.

      How would a nation govern itself if all the actors in government could be changed on a moment's notice? How would government agencies operate if their budget was set by a new administration every other week? How do you do long-range planning of any sort? How do you negotiate international treaties, when other countries know that you'll have a new President the day after tomorrow?

      Then of course there is the expense. Every party, every candidate, every elected official, running in full campaign mode, all the time. Billboards. Television attack ads. Television counterattack ads. Full pages of the New York Times. The airwaves afire with angry and self-righteous soundbites. Incidentally, when would these people have time to govern if they were campaigning all the time? Would you dare to visit another country--for a trade mission, a treaty negotiation, even a humanitarian project--if you knew your office could be gone when you got back?

      Damn right government doesn't always act according to the instantaneous whim of the majority--and I hope it never does.

      --
      ~Idarubicin
    5. Re:Issues with online voting... by Talthane · · Score: 1

      Direct democracy does not necessarily equate to mob rule. Look at Switzerland for an example; referenda on many, many issues. As far as I can tell, Switzerland has yet to degenerate...

      What you're referring to is the problem of how to stop knee-jerk reactions, not to direct democracy being impossible in itself. More interesting is your "whim of the majority" argument; every five years (or four/six in the US's case) government alters upon exactly that. Nobody gets a chance to speak up again for another half-decade. Is that any more logical, either, when we have these technologies that allow for consistent, direct communication between representatives and citizens?

      It depends on whether you think elected representatives (MP, Congressman, senator...) should be representatives or delegates - Edward Burke initiated the debate 250 years ago (and the United States was the colonies at the time, so this is an example when Empire and republic share the principle) and I don't think it's been settled. Like everything else, there's a balance to be found. But it's worth noting he claimed he was a representative, not a delegate - and the electorate promptly voted him out of office for disagreeing with them.

      --
      "This is why men never share their feelings; because women always remember." -Just Shoot Me.
    6. Re:Issues with online voting... by fritzson · · Score: 1
      This is not a "subtle problem" at all. Voting booths have curtains, and campaigners are constrained to stay away from polling places specifically so that you can cast an anonymous vote free from outside coercion or influences. With Internet voting, no one can tell what is going on whereever it is that you are voting from. Is someone pointing a gun at you? Is your boss watching you?

      In Italy, they recently had to make it illegal to carry cell phones into the booths because people were being forced to use camera cell phones to "prove" that they voted the "right" away.

      Voting should be done in polling places, using auditable ballots.

  12. I perfer lower turnouts by MonkeyDluffy · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I would rather have the people who are informed and care enough to get off their butts to be the ones who vote, than to go to substantial efforts to get people to vote who are otherwise too lazy.


    -MDL

    --
    Happy meals fund terrorism
  13. And People Think That Touch-Pad Voting Is Bad by GOPWillC · · Score: 1

    People seem to find touch-pad voting machines suspect because they don't leave a paper trail, and it's too easy to hack, etc. Well, wouldn't internet voting be even worse as it A. Doesn't leave a paper trail,and B. Probably the most easily hacked voting method. Plus, this possibly allows the uninformed, lazy voter, deciding who they want for office. We could easily end up with a total uneducated scum bag in office just because Al Bundy internet voted for him.

    1. Re:And People Think That Touch-Pad Voting Is Bad by yoder · · Score: 1

      "We could easily end up with a total uneducated scum bag in office just because Al Bundy internet voted for him."

      Too late. And it wasn't Al Bundy internet who voted him in, it was the Oil, Coal, and Media mafias who voted him in.
      Personally, I like my odds with Al Bundy internet a whole lot better.

      --
      "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act!" -- George Orwell (Eric Arthur Blair)
  14. other problems by dandelion_wine · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This is bound to increase voter "turnout" which could be a good thing, but

    i) how seriously will people take such a vote? Maybe a little vetting via bad weather and a walk to the local school is not such a bad thing, and
    ii) how will this new, higher-percentage of the voting public reflect the public at large? Yes, there are terminals available at many public librairies, but it doesn't take a sociologist to realize that there's still going to be a class bias perpetuated if having a computer means easy access to the vote.

    A higher percentage of voters is no good if only the needs of some groups in society are being reflected.

    Just my $.02

    1. Re:other problems by mrtroy · · Score: 1

      Answers i) "How serious" people take voting has nothing to do with how the people vote. It has to do with how important they think their vote is, and their knowledge of the candidates. Lets look at California. They didnt vote on the Internet. Enough said. (no disrespect to arnold, but seriously)

      ii) Anyone can use a pay-phone or public internet. I know in Ontario every library has 5-500 internet accessable computers, and on election day they could reserve them for elections.

      Democracy is based on a large number of people voting, the majority. Lets say 50% of people vote for candidate A and he wins. Now lets say only 50% of people voted. Thats not a true majority, only 25% of the population wanted that person in office.

      Id rather see 100% of people vote, and the dude get 50% of the votes.

      --
      [I can picture a world without war, without hate. I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it]
    2. Re:other problems by mindriot · · Score: 1

      As for the turnout, this excerpt from the Free E-Democracy Project explains it best:

      Increased Turnout

      Turnout (the number of people who vote in an election) has been steadily decreasing across most of the Western world. People are living increasingly busy lives with growing work and family commitments. Having to go to an old school or church hall to vote is difficult to fit into the day and seems anachronistic in this modern day. The younger generations, who vote even less than the rest, are probably turned off by the idea of voting with a stubby pencil and piece of paper when their lives revolve around the digital world of mobiles and consoles. If we make voting easier and more modern a greater number of people are likely to vote.

      Rebuttal:

      While some people do find it difficult to vote the traditional way, most people don't choose to not vote because of the hassle or its dated image. Surveys generally indicate that they feel their votes don't count, all the options are the same or they simply don't feel they know enough to make an educated choice. Jeremy Paxman has shown that turnout is significantly lower in areas where polling stations are within walking distance, when it's a trek people actually make the effort - convenience isn't the problem in the vast majority of cases.

      Voting is important but by focussing on increasing turnout we miss the broader point that to re-invigorate participation in democracy we need to fundamentally reform our constitutional institutions and processes, not fiddle with the method of voting. With a strong representative democracy turnout will naturally rise. Give voters some credit, they aren't lazy couch potatoes who will only vote if it consists of pressing the red button on the TV remote.

      In short, most likely electronic voting will not have much influence on the turnout. And considering the risks of electronic voting as opposed to 'classic' voting, why bother? Pencil-On-Paper voting works, and it works well. And, most importantly, it guarantees more security than what can possibly provided by an electronic system. See the rest of that article at the link above, it's a good read.

      We shouldn't do everything with computers just because it's possible. I, for one, would prefer to avoid any type of electronic election whenever something is at stake.

    3. Re:other problems by Jardine · · Score: 1

      I know in Ontario every library has 5-500 internet accessable computers, and on election day they could reserve them for elections.

      Not completely true. My local library only has 2 public computers. It's a very small community and a very small library. Of course, the place they usually put the polling station is about a block away from the library so it wouldn't make a difference in bad weather.

  15. Is there anything on the security of the system by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

    I could just see someone wardialing an election.

    There seem to be other problems as well. If you can vote at home you can record the process as proof you voted a particular way. This would allow you to sell your vote.

    What kind of internet setup are they using ? I hope its not Windows and IIS running ASP.

    Then there is the whole papertrail issue on the back end.

    They really don't seem to have addressed the issues of why there are polling places instead of return mail for voting.

    1. Re:Is there anything on the security of the system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It might help your so-called 'argument' if you knew what wardialing actually means.

  16. I still state my position by ajs318 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    that the fundamental basis of democracy is too important to be entrusted to any process not open to scrutiny at every stage.

    In this country there are three ways to cast a vote, besides walking to the polling station:
    1. Get a lift from a volunteer
    2. Arrange a postal vote in advance
    3. Arrange a proxy vote in advance
    The ballot papers are counted by hand, with candidates and guests in attendance. This system works. Now, you may say it is a minor inconvenience to actually have to get off your behind and cast your vote once every five years, and maybe to have to help counting up the papers or driving assorted strangers back and forth to the polling station all day. But your employer is not allowed to take any disciplinary action against you if you have to vote on works time, and when you realise that the alternative could be a fascist dictator forcing his way into power by hijacking an election, it really doesn't seem so much of an inconvenience after all. Maybe it would be appropriate to punish people who fail to vote? People have fought and died for democracy, and yet this is what we do in their memory. Of course, [GODWIN'S LAW EXEMPTION REQUEST] it doesn't help that there are politicians out there who have ideas that Adolf Hitler could only have had wet dreams about .....
    --
    Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    1. Re:I still state my position by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "and when you realise that the alternative could be a fascist dictator forcing his way into power by hijacking an election"
      I wish you people would stop picking on the USA and the commander-in-thief with these subtle statements!
      (If he is elected in 2004, can I come live in Canada with you folks?)

    2. Re:I still state my position by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe it would be appropriate to punish people who fail to vote?

      Hardly seems like a democracy if you FORCE people to give their votes. I was in the military for six years and I feel that I at least did some service to my country. The current slew of polititians disgust me, and I believe it is my right NOT to vote if a choose to do so. Should I also be punished for "throwing my vote away" because I didn't vote for one of the "approved" parties?

    3. Re:I still state my position by lordDallan · · Score: 1

      Maybe a better use of internet and telephony services would be an easy and secure way to:

      1. Get a lift from a volunteer
      2. Arrange a postal vote in advance
      3. Arrange a proxy vote in advance

      Just my two cents

    4. Re:I still state my position by Dun+Malg · · Score: 1
      Maybe it would be appropriate to punish people who fail to vote?

      Absolutely not. The right to abstain is as important as the right to choose one of the listed candidates. If you force people to pick one of the listed office-seekers when none of them represent that person's beliefs, you might as well hold a gun to their head and make them choose a particular candidate.

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    5. Re:I still state my position by Brad+Mace · · Score: 0
      Maybe it would be appropriate to punish people who fail to vote? People have fought and died for democracy, and yet this is what we do in their memory.

      The idea of forcing people to vote comes up a lot, but do we really want every redneck coming down from the mountains or out of the swamp to vote?

      There are a lot of people who just aren't informed enough to make useful decisions. Hopefully they'll take themselves out of the voting pool and leave voting to people who have at least a little clue.

      Thought about in this way, perhaps we could use a little less voter turnout.

      Or, having everyone vote could start with improving the education system across the board. Unfortunately our republican overlords don't seem to interested in having the masses informed.

    6. Re:I still state my position by Discopete · · Score: 1
      If you force people to pick one of the listed office-seekers when none of them represent that person's beliefs, you might as well hold a gun to their head and make them choose a particular candidate.

      Simple fix to your issue -- add a value of "abstain". Thus if there is no acceptable candidate, you effectivly don't vote. But your abstention is tallied and is not just a "I didn't feel like voting" it's a "Hey dumb-ass you didn't give me an acceptable candidate to vote for."
      This could also lead to no candidate getting a majority of the vote. Wonder what the Dems and Reps in the US would think if nobody got elected (including the incumbent)?
      Of course there are a number of issues with that method of voting which would need to be worked out (or not, iirc in the US if there is an issue of no obvious majority then the Supreme Court gets involoved.)

    7. Re:I still state my position by Discopete · · Score: 1
      There are a lot of people who just aren't informed enough to make useful decisions. Hopefully they'll take themselves out of the voting pool and leave voting to people who have at least a little clue.
      While I try very hard to not agree with this statement, I have to admit it's true, but the right to vote is granted to every (almost) US citizen. Once we start limiting those that can vote, we are just one step further along the road to Fascism.

      Unfortunately our republican overlords don't seem to interested in having the masses informed.
      Perhaps having 'brother jed' coming down from the hills to vote would give them a reason to educate the masses.

    8. Re:I still state my position by Brad+Mace · · Score: 1
      I certainly don't want to prevent people from voting. I'd like to live in a country where everyone has a basic knowledge of what's going on, and feels strongly enough that they go to the polls. I don't know how we get there, but internet voting isn't the magical cure. Certainly the number of people that might vote because it's easier will be outweighed by the risk of total corruption of elections. Electronic elections will simply be too easy to tamper with.

      This also assumes that the reason people don't vote is because it can be inconvenient, when it could just as easily be because people don't feel they can make a difference.

      Perhaps having 'brother jed' coming down from the hills to vote would give them a reason to educate the masses. This point is well taken. I guess it's a catch-22. You need to be informed in order to vote for someone who will inform you.

    9. Re:I still state my position by ajs318 · · Score: 1

      That's the trouble ..... if you compel people to vote they are ostensibly less free than if you don't compel them to do anything. But if enough people don't vote, then there is a possibility that, under the wrong sort of government, they could become even less free than citizens who are compelled to vote. Once you start forcing people to do things, it looks like the thin end of a very big wedge, and it gets easier to consider other, less benign forms of coercion as reasonable.

      You have to consider not just what you are trying to achieve, but how people will interpret your efforts. If you concentrate too much on the ends, you end up a ranting idealist; but if you concentrate too much on the means, you end up a spin doctor, telling people their plates are getting bigger when there is less food to go around. There is a delicate balance to be struck.

      A less overtly forcible method might be to treat an abstention as a vote for "re-open nominations [1], all others no vote". {I'm assuming here single transferrable voting with the pseudo-candidate R.O.N., as happens in student union elections in UK universities}. Then a no show becomes an automatic vote of no confidence in any of the candidates. But then, if RON keeps winning, there is effectively no government for as long as it takes for a real candidate to get elected.

      And yes, unfortunately, as much as we might wish it not true, there are some people who aren't fit to choose their own government. Historically, these people have been in such a small minority as to hold no influence over the final outcome. Modern party politics is disillusioning voters, as the impression given off is overwhelmingly one of little difference to the end result whoever wins.

      Back in the '80s, we had a Conservative government and a vocal Labour opposition. Today we have a Labour government that might as well be a direct continuation from that Conservative government, a weak Conservative opposition with nothing to say because Labour have turned into the Conservatives, and an electorate who simply don't know how to choose between the two evils. And we all know what happens when good people do nothing .....

      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    10. Re:I still state my position by Dun+Malg · · Score: 1
      If you force people to pick one of the listed office-seekers when none of them represent that person's beliefs, you might as well hold a gun to their head and make them choose a particular candidate.

      Simple fix to your issue -- add a value of "abstain". Thus if there is no acceptable candidate, you effectivly don't vote. But your abstention is tallied and is not just a "I didn't feel like voting" it's a "Hey dumb-ass you didn't give me an acceptable candidate to vote for."

      Well yeah, that takes care of the "none of the above" folks, but what about those who want to vote "no confidence" because they don't believe in the system? Or those who feel it's immoral to force their beliefs on others, even the very little forcing that's the result of voting? Personally, I think forced voting would be as immoral as mandatory military service. Neither are really appropriate for a truly free society.

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
  17. Re:No body: "PIN Number" is redundant. "PIN", plea by JessLeah · · Score: 3, Funny

    I would prefer the moderation "correct". Or perhaps "correct, and heavily pissed off by seeing gajillions of intelligent people make the same stupid mistake." "PIN number". "ATM machine". "CD-ROM disc". "DAT tape". All wrong. All stupid.

  18. Internet Voting. Phone Voting. Bad. Bad. by Afty0r · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Someone who is not motivated enough to take an hour or so to travel to their local voting booth and vote does not care or know enough about the issues involved to make an informed and sensible choice.

    Having 90% of the population vote when only 40% of the population researches, interrogates and cares only means you'll have 50% of pseudo random "noise" votes drowning out the informed, important votes.

    1. Re:Internet Voting. Phone Voting. Bad. Bad. by Phantasmo · · Score: 1

      Someone who is not motivated enough to take an hour or so to travel to their local voting booth and vote does not care or know enough about the issues involved to make an informed and sensible choice.

      I'm in Toronto and and we're having our municipal elections today. There are three polling stations within 10 minutes' walk from my house (although I have been assigned to the nearest one, about 4 minutes away).

      Also, all candidates enlist scores of volunteers to drive anyone who doesn't have a ride to their polling station.

      Having 90% of the population vote when only 40% of the population researches, interrogates and cares only means you'll have 50% of pseudo random "noise" votes drowning out the informed, important votes.
      What we've started doing this year is holding high school elections, to get students in the habit of staying informed and actually voting.

      The problem with voting is that we still have a first-past-the-post system. In the last provincial election the New Democratic Party saw their share of the popular vote rise by about 20%. However, they ended up losing one seat (and official party status). In a proportional system, the number of seats they hold would have doubled.

      It's hard to get motivated to vote unless you're voting for someone who you're certain is going to win. Otherwise, it feels like a terrible waste. I can certainly understand the apathy most voters feel.

      --

      The US Army: promoting democracy through unquestioned obedience
    2. Re:Internet Voting. Phone Voting. Bad. Bad. by Spl0it · · Score: 1

      I think your forgetting that even out of the "40% of the population researches, interrogates and cares" most people don't understand how everything works. I hopefully won't receive a flaimbait for this, but take the NDP (in Canada).. they want everything to be a free and more funding for this that and that and yet only a small tax increase. They create such funding problems that they essentially cause damage that takes 5x the amount of time to reverse. Politics is all about business, providing the people who need funding with funding, but the line has to be drawn somewhere or else we don't balance the books and we add to our nice total of billions we owe. Most people don't understand that, and even if we encourage more lazy votes in this way, your # of informed voters will still be extremely low.. I believe 40% is more along the lines of 15%. My $0.02 :P

      --

      No, this is
    3. Re:Internet Voting. Phone Voting. Bad. Bad. by Effexor · · Score: 1
      The interesting thing to note is how everyone seems to assume that they are in that 40% (or 15% or whatever) that is capable of making an informed decision.

      How that percentage is figured I am a little vague on, but I suspect it is based on the number of voters who voted the same as you.

      This is perhaps a corollary of those who believe that most people won't get into heaven, but that they certainly will.

      --

      As the air to a bird or the sea to a fish, so is contempt to the contemptible -W.B.

    4. Re:Internet Voting. Phone Voting. Bad. Bad. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they want everything to be a free and more funding for this that and that and yet only a small tax increase. They create such funding problems that they essentially cause damage that takes 5x the amount of time to reverse. Politics is all about business, providing the people who need funding with funding, but the line has to be drawn somewhere or else we don't balance the books and we add to our nice total of billions we owe.

      Sooo... you are talking about the Republicans in the US right?

    5. Re:Internet Voting. Phone Voting. Bad. Bad. by Afty0r · · Score: 1
      The interesting thing to note is how everyone seems to assume that they are in that 40% (or 15% or whatever) that is capable of making an informed decision.
      How that percentage is figured I am a little vague on, but I suspect it is based on the number of voters who voted the same as you.


      Not at all, I picked a random number. My point was not that "some people vote for better parties than others" but that people who bother to look into issues and spend time researching them and effort voting are the people who *should* be deciding who runs the country. The people who read the tabloids once per week and vote based on whatever the owner of the tabloids has manipulated them into believing drown out the well informed choices (be they left, right or center).
  19. What are people surprised by this? by deanj · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Why are people surprised by this? Politicans that are for this sort of thing think they can use it to their advantage, to (Shock! Horrors!) cheat the system. There have been elections in the US where out and out voter fraud have occurred, (notably, Wisconsin and Missouri, and of course, Chicago), and all this will do is make it harder to detect, and harder to enforce.

    Wait until someone breaks into this system and turns an election on it's ear... You'll see some mighty fast backpedaling to the old system.

    1. Re:What are people surprised by this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait until someone breaks into this system and turns an election on it's ear... You'll see some mighty fast backpedaling to the old system.

      Actually, you won't. The winner will certainly see to that.

  20. The cynical view... by PSaltyDS · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...would be that this makes it easy for rednecks and CEOs to hand over their PINs to the GOP, then blacks and union members can give theirs to the DNC, while the pock-faced greenpeacer at the health food store sends it to the Green party. Weeks before the election we will already know who wins based on who has the largest collection of proxy votes in hand.

    That's the way proxy votes come out in business, there is rarely any suspense about how it will come out because everyone knows before hand who has the blocks of proxy votes needed. Also, you would expect a new PIN for each election, but if you signed up for the right program, each of your PINs could be delivered straight to the party headquarters of your choice.

    Many states with lotteries already do something like this. Sign up and have your same favorite numbers played every week and charged against your credit card. Voluntary taxation made easy.

    Any technology distinguishable from magic is not suficiently advanced.

    --
    Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. - Geek's corollary to Clarke's law
    1. Re:The cynical view... by Empyrean9 · · Score: 1

      Even though some Americans would like to see Canada annexed, it has not happened yet! That being said, I sincerely doubt that anybody in Ontario will be handing their PINs over to the Democrat or Republican National Committees', or the American Green Party any time soon! Besides, this system is only being used for municipal elections, so no parties are involved.

  21. not news by scorilo · · Score: 3, Informative
    The problem I have with internet/touchtone elections for public office is that no matter how well thought out the "plan" is, evil private interests will be able to hijack it. The same applies to any public initiative that conflicts at some level with one's ability to profit (except, perhaps, in Scandinavia).

    Private elections are another matter. In the same Canada, Mountain Co-op has been running these elections for a while. Whenever you buy some mountain gear (or anything for that matter) from them, you become a member of the co-op. As such, you have a say in how the system is run and you get to elect the board of directors. Election implementation is overseen by PWC or E&Y, and you get a package in the mail containg the election information.

    --
    "One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that ones work is terribly important." -BRussell
  22. Not having a physical ballot site is nothing new. by compwizrd · · Score: 1

    They've done voting by mail for many many years where my mother lives. (Rural area in Ontario). Again, no conventional ballot.

    Granted, the entire field of candidates for this election is 6 people, running for 3 positions, the rest were acclaimed.

  23. ala Heinlien - restrict voting to 'Citizens' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I don't think making it easy for the masses to vote will necessarily improve government - "Left to themselves, the people will always vote for Cake and Circuses" (Churchill?)

    I kind of liked Heinliens idea that in order to have a vote you should have to have contributed in the first place to that society. That it wasn't enough just to have money, or have a pulse and the luck of being born there....

    1. Re:ala Heinlien - restrict voting to 'Citizens' by HomerJayS · · Score: 1
      I liked Arthur C Clarke's idea better (Song's of Distant Earth (I think)) Let anyone vote, but the representatives/candidates are chosen at random from the population at large.

      The kicker? Anyone who actually wants to hold an office is automatically deisqualified from running.

  24. That's nice by JediTrainer · · Score: 4, Informative

    Too bad they forgot to mention the Town of Markham, billed as Canada's Technology Capital (just north of Toronto). Apparently 11,700 residents registered to vote online this year in this municipal election. (note: it's not a terribly small down - with a population of 190,000)

    I was sent the information on how to vote online, but I just don't trust it, what with no paper trail. The elections are today, and I plan on going and filling in my old-fashioned "x in the circle" paper ballot.

    'Course the mayor (Don Cousens) is a shoe-in. He's been mayor since forever and there are no viable alternative candidates. Don doesn't seem to be even bothering advertising his platform much - all I've seen is about one or two election signs around town. All the action is between the city council or the regional council positions.

    --

    You can accomplish anything you set your mind to. The impossible just takes a little longer.
  25. Would this be useful in Florida? by Epeeist · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If you were black and lived in Florida this might just allow you to vote instead of being turned away from the voting booths.

    Of course there might be other ways of eliminating votes from inappropriate people - "His name is Leroy, just drop the vote into the bit bucket~.

    1. Re:Would this be useful in Florida? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The claims that that happened during the 2000 election were investigated and shown false.

    2. Re:Would this be useful in Florida? by overunderunderdone · · Score: 1

      If you were black and lived in Florida this might just allow you to vote instead of being turned away from the voting booths.

      As an added bonus if you know about computers you may be able to vote several times.

      I'm afraid of these systems because there are unscrupulous politicians and groups in both parties that DO engage in dirty tricks and outright voter fraud. Just look at the instances in Florida that you bring up. I do not doubt that in some of those instances there really was a concerted effort by political hacks to suppress the turnout in wards that were dominated by their opponents. I think you are laughably naive if you think it was only Republicans engaging in such tactics.

      I'm not as sure about the specifics in Florida but at least where I am some of the instances of voter intimidation/fraud the question of who is cheating who is in the eye of the beholder - In one instance poll watchers from one party observed campaign volunteers from the other party illegally going right into the voting booths with voters and "helping" them vote. The poll watchers got a camcorder out of their car and recorded this illegal activity. Of course in doing so they themselves were illegally disrupting voting and intimidating voters in one of their opponents strongholds. Who was cheating who? Would you have to know which party was "helping" voters and which was "intimidating voters" to answer? (Though I'm sure you can guess - this was a "dog bites man" story.)

    3. Re:Would this be useful in Florida? by Brad+Mace · · Score: 1
      Of course there might be other ways of eliminating votes from inappropriate people - "His name is Leroy, just drop the vote into the bit bucket~.

      Unless it's Leroy Brown. I've heard it's best not to mess with him.

    4. Re:Would this be useful in Florida? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, well, Colin, I'm guessing that we'll find a lot more white people named Leroy then we will find black fencers or yachstmen, won't we?

      "Epeeist." Oh, Please!

    5. Re:Would this be useful in Florida? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More of an "ass bites hat" story..

    6. Re:Would this be useful in Florida? by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you were black and lived in Florida this might just allow you to vote instead of being turned away from the voting booths

      Provide one single, actual instance, please.

      What's that? None? That's what I thought.

    7. Re:Would this be useful in Florida? by lildogie · · Score: 0

      > His name is Leroy, just drop the vote into the bit bucket~.

      That's how Florida turned away most of the disenfranchised voters. They had names similar to convicted felons. Same last name as a felon, and same initial four letters in the first name, disqualified the voter. No matter that the birthdate, middle name, or race were different. Some disqualified "felons" were convicted prior to their birthdates.

    8. Re:Would this be useful in Florida? by coyote-san · · Score: 1

      How about the fradulent felon lists? One county commissioner threw the list out - she found her own name among the list of convicted felons! - but other counties accepted them as having valid and thousands of people were wrongfully struck from the voter lists as convicted felons. These people where overwhelmingly black and male.

      A number of other allegations seem to have some real meat, but this is the one that's easiest to demonstrate.

      --
      For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
    9. Re:Would this be useful in Florida? by coyote-san · · Score: 1

      One "convicted felon" was a county election official. One guess what was done with that list in that county.

      (Lotsa of mindless blather inserted since Slashdot's latest "new & improved" spam filters apparently believe that nobody could add a useful one line comment.

      blah, blah, blah and more blah)

      --
      For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
    10. Re:Would this be useful in Florida? by Brandybuck · · Score: 1

      These people where overwhelmingly black and male.

      By some strange quirk of fate, most felons are black and male. I'm not being racist, that's just the way it is. There are many reasons for this, but not among them is a conspiracy to manipulate elections.

      --
      Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
    11. Re:Would this be useful in Florida? by pmz · · Score: 2, Insightful


      If people in Florida couldn't figure out a damn punch card, then I'd like to make a wager with you whether they can navigate phone menus or a website!

      "Oh drat, I meant to press two!"

    12. Re:Would this be useful in Florida? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or it could be the fact that you copied & pasted that.

  26. Revolt In 2100 by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

    This is a classic by Heinlein. I recommend it highly.

    The plot deals with precisely the fact that voters were becoming apathetic and turnout was dropping. Unlike your scenario the people that cared were all fundamentalist christians who elected their prophet to power.

  27. ideal for condorcet voting? by danharan · · Score: 1

    There are plenty of issues with e-voting (privacy, security, etc..).

    But there is at least one thing it could do better than - at least cheaper than - paper voting. I'm thinking of schemes like Condorcet voting, which would eliminate first past the post absurdities. People routinely get a seat with only 40% of expressed vote (55% turnout...), with the remaining 60% of votes being split by the other two parties. Oh, and the Marijuana party, Rhino party knock-offs, Marxist-Leninist...

    E-voting for the same old system is not quite as interesting. Perhaps if people thought we could make votes more meaningful, more than 55% of us would bother to vote.

    --
    Information: "I want to be anthropomorphized"
  28. Not so democratics as it seems by stm2 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    From the article:


    Church said the new system makes democracy more accessible by removing such barriers to voting as limited mobility or even poor weather

    This may work in the US, but in another countries this doesn't seems fair. In my country (Argentina) postal services sucks, so probabily you won't get the card/pin by standard mail. There are a lot of people with outdated address on the gov' databases. So even if the cards are mailed, they will arrive to a different place. And the election day here is marked as a red calendar day so you don't have to go to work that day, so you don't have excuse to not to go to vote. The only problem, is that you must stand in a line for up to one hour. Another problem is that you could get force to be a election official (even if you don't want). Ok, going back to the antidemocratic issue, the main problem I see here is that there is people that doesn't want to learn new things and won't adopt a new system (most older people is like this) and won't vote at all. So I doubt it will make democracy more accessible

    --
    DNA in your Linux: DNALinux
    1. Re:Not so democratics as it seems by tomcio.s · · Score: 1

      Might be so, but here in Canada we have census persons going door to door before every election. So this system will work for most (unless you moved in the last month and are too lazy to collect your mail from previous residence).

      Having that said. I am still sceptical wheather voting over wire (phone/net) should be done or not. I guess I will find out soon enough if it worked for us Canadians up here.

  29. Meta-redundancies abound by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    News just in: "Geek complains about other geeks' geekiness on uber-geek website!!!".

  30. Oblig. Futurama Quote... by Insightfill · · Score: 4, Funny
    Human female: "The sheer drama of this election has driven voter turnout to its highest level in centuries, six percent."

    Morbo: "Exit poll show evil underdog Richard Nixon trailing with estimated zero votes."

    Human female: "The time is 7:59 and the robot polls are now opening." (short pause) "And robot votes are now in. Nixon has won."

    Morbo: "Morbo congratulates our gargantuan cyborg president. May death come quickly to his enemies."

  31. Warning! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Warning: Please be patient and wait for the next screen to show: it takes the server time for to process your vote. If you click on the Reload button on your browser, you will end up recording multiple votes".

  32. Mind your own MYOB business. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is none of your business if I use my own person PIN number at the automatic teller ATM machine.

    Why are you butting in? Do you work for the FBI bureau? I've seen stories about you guys on the CNN news network.

  33. I can see it now... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

    Shoot the monkey banners and pop-up ad's from candidates on the voters form......

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  34. Oops! by Sj0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    OK, it's official. Democracy is officially worthless.

    Sorry, I know how the internet works, and that's more than enough to convince me that nothing as important as voting should be done through it.

    --
    It's been a long time.
    1. Re:Oops! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you don't know how the Internet works. You only think you do, and are paranoid enough to regard theoretical security problems as being real-world exploitable.

    2. Re:Oops! by Sj0 · · Score: 1

      How do idiots like you manage to open a web browser? I'm a CCNA; I think I know a thing or two about how the internet works.

      --
      It's been a long time.
  35. Mod Parent Down. by mrtroy · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    You stupid fuck. I am from London. Let me explain why its called London.

    English explorers settled in this area. They started looking around, and found a river. They thought it looked like the "thames" river back home, so they named it the thames river. Then a town formed on the forks of the thames. So they named this town London.

    So you want original city names? How about "York" as Toronto was called, which isnt original. But the US "New York" is a knockoff of York, which is also English.

    North America is filled with cities, rivers, mountains, and any other thing that is named which have been named after primarily European names

    So shut the fuck up, and leave London alone.

    --
    [I can picture a world without war, without hate. I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it]
    1. Re:Mod Parent Down. by NSupremo · · Score: 0

      You give London'ers a bad name.

      also, New York wasn't it's original name

      --
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_U.S._Election_co ntroversies_and_irregularities
    2. Re:Mod Parent Down. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Alert! Alert! Sense of humour failure!

  36. Hysterical Slashdotters by JPelorat · · Score: 1

    The truth never stopped them before.. don't expect it to now.

    --
    Hokey statistics and ancient misconceptions are no match for a good thought in your head, kid!
  37. Enumeration is a joke in Ontario by rruvin · · Score: 3, Informative

    The voting process here is one sad joke, anyway. If you're not on the voter's list, all you have to do to vote is show up at the polls with a piece of ID that shows your address. They don't even ask for proof of citizenship. The enumeration process (whereby you get on the voter's list) itself is pathetic. I received a voter's card for the provincial election (in early October), but not for the municipal election -- this is in Toronto. One person who did receive a voter's card for the municipal election, though, was my grandfather, who has been dead for over a year and who had been mentally incapacitated for years before. There've also been stories of 13 year old children and even pets being enumerated and receiving voter's cards. And if you do get a voter's card, you're absolutely golden. They let you in and let you vote without even making you show your ID to prove that you are who you say you are.

    1. Re:Enumeration is a joke in Ontario by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The voting process is also a joke. I just finished voting (in Ottawa) and they didnt even ask me for any id or anything. I didn't bring in the sheet they sent me in the mail, just gave my name and address and they handed me a ballot without wanting to see any ID or anything. I suppose with that level of voter security I could go to every polling station and vote many times if I really wanted to. It doesnt matter though, there is nobody good to vote for this election anyway. I was very tempted to spoil my ballot...

  38. celebrate! by c4ffeine · · Score: 1

    This is a good idea. Let's use it in the united states! Wait a minute... You say that any script kiddie can break into the databases they're using? No problem, it's safe, it's based off the secure Windows Server 2003...

    Wow, r00lz0rh4xxxx0r was just elected president with eleventy million votes! Wait a minute, the state of "133tness" just submitted it's votes, that's infinity billion votes for someone trying to be funny. Goddamn script kiddies!

    So, this is a really good idea, and we should implement it... CmdrTaco for President!

    --
    "73% of quotes on the Internet are made up" -Ben Franklin
  39. It's just Canada by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you're going to beta test some goofy online voting system, might as well do it in a place that doesn't count, like Washington, D.C. or Ontario. I mean, isn't Tom Green from Ontario? 'Nuff said.

  40. What server are they running? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anyone know if they are running Apache or IIS or someting else?

  41. Phone menu ballot from hell by HomerJayS · · Score: 1

    Imagine phoning in your vote in the recent CA recall election.... To vote for Andrews, George press '1#' To vote for Brown, Jane press '2#' ... To vote for Zorowski, Ronald press '134#' To repeat the list of candidates again press '*'

    1. Re:Phone menu ballot from hell by greed · · Score: 1

      The Toronto mayoral race has 44 candidates, so you don't need to go that far afield; just the next town over really.

      "...and if you think they're all a bunch of backstabbing, lying, cheating scumbags, press 45#."

  42. One-Click Democracy - Patent it now! by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1

    The only problem with this is the same one as making voting mandatory - all those uninformed people who don't really care anyway are required to make a decision. The people who are informed and therefore make decisions based on this rather than media saturation ("Bush? Oh yeah - I've heard of him, don't know who the other guys are...") get swamped.

    It's a little different to having a easy one-click democracy but it works (or doesn't) on the same principle.

    None of which comes close to the potential abuses of vote-buying and auditability however.

    --

    Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
  43. Bzzt. The Arizona Democrats did this in 2000. by Combuchan · · Score: 1

    35,765 Internet Votes Cast by Arizona Democrats was submitted on 11 March 2000.

    --
    "[T]he single essential element on which all discoveries will be dependent is human freedom." -- Barry Goldwater
  44. markham ontario by thebdot · · Score: 1

    markham, ontario also had an internet vote - athough their system was from a US company , Election Systems and Software. So that means all our votes are going to a nanmeless server in wisconson!

  45. Ob Spaceballs Reference by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I certainly hope they didn't do anything dumb like making the PIN numbers 4-6 digit consecutive numbers.

    I'm going to vote twice. Once using my own PIN, and once using President Scroob's PIN of 1-2-3-4-5.

  46. Combine this with the digital certificates by thepacketmaster · · Score: 1

    The pin number is okay, but what if the mail is intercepted? What I would prefer to see is a link to the Canadian Federal government's digital certificate setup that was talked about in a previous slashdot article Or better yet, a combination of the digital certificate and the PIN number, to help protect confidentiality of the votes.

    --

    --

    Luck is just skill you didn't know you had.

  47. Mostly On, Slightly Off-Topic by greenhide · · Score: 1

    For those of you interesting in touch-screen voting, there was a very interesting show about it on the weekly PRI (public radio) program This American Life, which discussed the problems with the system, including the Diebold system and the non-auditability of the new touch-screen voting machines. The audio isn't up on their website for free yet, but it should be here soon. For those who can't wait, you can get audio from the show at audible.com.

    If you don't yes listen to This American Life yet, you should start. It's probably the best weekly show in any medium -- radio or television.

    --
    Karma: Chevy Kavalierma.
  48. You didn't pay attention then... by thatguywhoiam · · Score: 1
    ...and I'll tell you, if this works anything like some of the municipal services, they're fscked! Prescott-Russell is a backwater. Half the places there are still on dialup, for starters. The road and water systems are a shambles. My ex is going to have to shell out an extra $2K this year to help upgrade everything. Never a cop in sight, so the kids in their damn rice-boy POS cars run rampant on the residential streets. Meanwhile, the little guy in his white pickup who enforces municipal bylaws seems everywhere, looking for those hapless individuals who run their lawn sprinklers on the wrong day, or have a hedge 6 inches too high. Shows where the priorities are. I think this election is going to be a farce!

    Well, I do live in Toronto, and... what the fuck are you *on* about?

    Your post is totally nonsensical. The streets are not 'a shambles'. We have one of the best Police forces in the world, and one of the lowest crime rates of any major city. I've never seen a rice burner in my neighbourhood, I don't know what 'little guy in a white pickup' you are referring to, and ....NOW you are equating local by-laws to their Internet election experiment?

    I take it back. You must be from Canada, because you must be very very high. I think your post is a farce. And I cannot believe it got modded up by anyone. It doesn't SAY anything!

    --
    If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
    1. Re:You didn't pay attention then... by wing03 · · Score: 1

      County Prescott-Russel is indeed in the backwaters of the Ottawa Valley. I'll add Lanark, Perth and other places in the Ottawa valley to that list.

      It's rural living and cottage country.

      I don't know Ottawa and its bedroom communities nor what part of Prescott-Russel the original poster is from but like Steeles Ave at Toronto's northermost boundary street, I can kinda see ricers using alot of the new expanded roads out of Ottawa to drag.

      I have friends out in Port Elmsley (county Lanark) who tried to use dialup 56k but the modem can only manage 28.8 at best. It was only last year 2002 that cable got out to their place and they're on high speed now.

    2. Re:You didn't pay attention then... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I grew up in Casselman (Prescott-Russell), IT'S A BACKWATER TOWN, trust me. Last year, no one even ran against the mayor, so this electronic election should go easily enough.

    3. Re:You didn't pay attention then... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude..."eastern Ontario" is certainly *not* Toronto.

      The original poster is *dead on*.

  49. Re:In other news... by Mashiki · · Score: 1

    We actually did have a city named Berlin. It was called Kitchner, and was founded by German immigrants long before WWI or WWII. When WWII rolled around, the city was renamed from Berlin to Kitchner due to the whole Nazi bit.

    Paris is an existing town, you can find it on a map about 70km east of London. In both cases founded by immigrants.

    --
    Om, nomnomnom...
  50. I'm gonna get me 2 votes when this comes to USA by EriDay · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Click here if you also want an extra vote when implemented in the United States. I hear the Philippino's are the best way to accomplish this task.

    If you're too damn lazy to take the effort to go to the polling place, maybe you don't deserve a vote!

  51. I'm in CA and I voted on the internet... by rthille · · Score: 1


    Oh, wait, I'm California. Oops. Hope the Canadians don't mind living with my decisions!

    --
    Awesome furniture, accessories and cabinetry in Santa Rosa, CA: http://humanity-home.com/
    1. Re:I'm in CA and I voted on the internet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, thay explains why Keanu Reeves was elected as my city councillor. Thanks a lot.

  52. Sounds like a major authentication hassle by xant · · Score: 2, Insightful

    By "authentication" I mean the security sense: verifying that you are who you claim to be.

    This is not the only issue with online voting (the slashhorde has already pointed out that there is a privacy concern), but it is, in my opinion, the most important one. They mail you the PIN number. This means your vote is only as secure as the postal service. How secure is that? Not very damn secure at all.

    Never mind that someone else could pilfer your mail and therefore your constitutional rights, someone in your own household could do it. Imagine your 10-year-old son deciding to get back at you by voting Republican (or whatever the Canadian equivalent is).

    Absentee ballots also have this issue, but at least those have a physical signature. Until we all have smart cards with biometrics to use for identification, any such system will have a major authentication problem.

    --
    It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
  53. barriers by stud9920 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Church said the new system makes democracy more accessible by removing such barriers to voting as limited mobility or even poor weather."
    Maybe a first simple step would be to hold elections on days where most people don't work, so it's not a barrier for wage slaves.
  54. Bad Idea for US by Mr.+White · · Score: 1


    This country runs on apathy. High turnout may sound all warm and fuzzy, but what is more important than turnout is smart, researched, and educated voting.

    People that are too damn lazy to even go to polls or vote by mail are not the type of people that you want voting in the first place.

    Witold
    www.witold.org

  55. RUSH?! Rush Limbaugh? Is That You? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Welcome back, Big Guy! America has missed you!

  56. Email the PIN? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From the proxy vote page:

    If you received notification by E-Mail:

    1. To access an electronic ballot, enter the 12 or 14 digit Control Number contained in your E-Mail message and the PERSONAL IDENTIFICATION NUMBER (PIN) you used when you enrolled for electronic delivery.

    and further down:

    Check this box if you have forgotten your PIN and wish to have it emailed to the address on record.

    Is that such a good idea? Passing both control numbers and PINs over cleartext email?

    On a separate note, I'm from Winchester (less than 2000 people) in Dundas County, and recently found out that they have both DSL and Cable for Internet access there.

  57. Reason to be dubious ... by jc42 · · Score: 1

    US voter turnout is also right around 50%.

    Well, I have my doubts about the accuracy of this claim.

    In a recent election hereabouts, some time after the election, there was a news report that 30,000 uncounted votes had been discovered in one precinct. They counted them, of course, and claimed that this didn't effect the election results.

    In the 2000 election, there was a similar report from Florida, but the "misplaced" boxes of votes contained around 100,000 ballots. After they were counted, there was a similar claim that it hadn't changed the outcome of the election. Right.

    My reaction to all the stories like this is to wonder how many other votes were similarly "misplaced" and not "discovered". And how do I know that my vote wasn't similarly "misplaced". (I live in a university neighborhood that often votes differently from the city as a whole, so there is good reason to be suspicious.)

    I've long wondered if, when we hear that only 50% of the voters actually voted, what really happened was that 90% voted, but the votes of 40% were "misplaced" and not counted.

    With proprietary electronic voting systems, not auditable by the public, it seems that the voting turnout is highly likely to decrease similarly ...

    --
    Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
  58. Re:No body: "PIN Number" is redundant. "PIN", plea by SmackCrackandPot · · Score: 1

    Are you saying that using a LCD display with a VGA graphics adapter card is the wrong way to read slashdot articles? Perhaps the media (eg. the BBC corporation) should run a series on helping people use their TLA's properly.

  59. That's not cynical. by Heisenbug · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You're saying that this system will work as intended, allowing people to express their actual views more easily? If it works that way, then more power to them.

    The cynical view is, this will allow people to give their PINs to the local strongman in exchange for fat loot.

  60. Who's not paying attention? by Black+Rabbit · · Score: 1

    From the article:

    "About 100,000 voters the counties of Prescott-Russell and Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry were registered to cast their ballots online."

    The article specifically mentions Prescott-Russell, in eastern Ontario, just east of the city of Ottawa. Where the hell did you get Toronto out of that? ...or maybe I've just fed a troll...

  61. Class division in elections by rowdent · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Unless these municipalities have decided to set up internet kiosks everywhere, doesn't this raise the question about accessibility and who this REALLY makes it easier for. This will essentially make it easier for the more wealthy to decide the government, since now they don't even have to leave their houses to vote, whereas the lower income constituents still have to go somewhere else to vote.

    --
    "If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." --George Orwell
  62. Vote scanners by hey · · Score: 1
    I just voted in Toronto. (For Miller in case you are wondering.)

    I was interested to see they had a hybrid system. You marked your vote on paper but then its run thru a scanner which presumably counts the votes. So the second the polls close they'll know the results. But the old style ballots are around for recounts.

    They scanned thru one lady's ballot and the machine gave an error. The election official looked at the ballot with her and told her had mistakenly voted for two people for mayor - duh. She was talken over to a table and I assume her first ballot would be destroyed and she was given a second one. Normally ballots like that from people who are too stupid to know how to vote would not count. That seems like a bad side-effect of this device. I am not sure what I think about the official looking at her secret ballot.

    A display on the machine show the number of voters. At 11:30 it was only 101 people (including me but not include that woman). Doesn't seem like very many for a very dense urban riding. I guess my vote might count.

    1. Re:Vote scanners by nurbman · · Score: 1
      I voted in Toronto today also. That hybrid electronic/paper voting system is excellent.

      Scanning the ballots and having a paper trail is really the best method. Twenty minutes after the polls close you know the winner and any disputes are easily recounted.

      Any other electronic method that doesn't leave a paper trail will lose the confidence of the public, no matter how well it works.

  63. Familiar by Kelz · · Score: 1

    Does this have anything to do with the dilbert episode on last night?

  64. TLAs need context by Saucepan · · Score: 1

    There's little point trying to prescribe correct language -- it only serves to annoy others and worsen your own blood pressure. And most of the time there turns out to be a reason people use language the way they do.

    In this case, there are a relatively small number of possible TLAs so collisions are common. Using the TLA as an adjective -- which requires a noun for it to modify -- has become a common way of providing context for the TLA. For many people, the small amount of redundancy seems to be worth the convenience of not having to spell out the full phrase.

  65. No doubt by FanaticalDesperado · · Score: 1

    In the current system, the voter can always lie to a candidate, and within the privacy of the voting room, do what he/she wishes.
    If anyone ever approached me to buy my vote, I'd gladly accept their money. Then, I would go into the voting booth and vote against them. If a person is buying votes, do I really want to vote for them? I think not.

    1. Re:No doubt by toofanx · · Score: 1

      Very true. But in this case, they can actually verify that you will vote for them, by insisting of sitting beside you while you vote on the internet. In the current system, I would do exactly what you said, too.

      The problem is, if you live in a community where a large majority are stupid enough agree to sell their votes to a corrupt candidate, then, it would be easier to find out exactly who do not vote for the corrupt candidate, and the corrupt candidate can make life difficult for them.

  66. This was a baaaad idea... by BlindingSpeed · · Score: 1

    Check out Black Box Voting to find out what is and is not good practice in the world of voting and voting technology (read some of the free online edition of the book by Bev Harris, it's quite interesting). I think online voting falls sqarely in the not good category. It is simply not auditable and is susceptible to too great a number of security risks.

    1. Re:This was a baaaad idea... by EDinNY · · Score: 1

      I agree. I was wondering why readers here seem so for Internet voting while so against computer voting!

      As far as I am concern, deep 6 both!

  67. Pay?! Why pay?!?! by skintigh2 · · Score: 1

    Why not go around town and threaten people "your vote or your life" just like in the good old days before secret ballot.

    "Your PIN or your life" would work too.

  68. The Toronto Star's endorsement by rruvin · · Score: 1
    So, you're basing your vote on The Star's endorsement, eh?

    So do I: I find out whom they've endorsed and then make sure I vote for the opposing candidate. :)

  69. Just a pet peeve of mine but... by /dev/trash · · Score: 1

    A PIN number would be a Personal ID Number Number.

    1. Re:Just a pet peeve of mine but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another enlightening moment from Thinkers of America.

  70. Re:No body: "PIN Number" is redundant. "PIN", plea by gnu-generation-one · · Score: 1

    "PIN number". "ATM machine". "CD-ROM disc". "DAT tape". All wrong. All stupid.

    GNU must be infinitely bad...

  71. Diebold AccuVote WITH paper ballots by SubtleNuance · · Score: 1

    Ive just returned from voting. We are using a Diebold AccuVote system. You are required to mark a sheet which is then fed by the 'operator' (in your presence) into a scanner. If you have spoiled ballot, the machine returns your ballot giving you an opportunity to correct it.

    I asked the operator, "are these counted by hand confirm the results?", he said "no, only if a returning officer or scrutineer requests it" -- didnt leave me with the warm fuzzy feeling.

    The good news is that at least there is a paper trail - the ballots COULD be recounted if necessary. This is much better than the touchscreen type that leaves no possible way of recounting.

    All in all, id say I dont mind the system. But a recount of the paper ballots should be an automatic, release the 'machine tallied preliminary results' then have a manual paper count... this removes the "this election is electronically rigged" doubt.

  72. An inevitable step by jmalm · · Score: 1

    Online elections have been tried before in Canada -- the last one I heard about was for the election of the New Democratic Party held over a year ago, run by election.com.

    During this election the system was hacked and was down for a few hours, highlighting the fact that anarchists and hackers see elections as a focal point to concentrate their efforts; luckily for election.com, the NDP, and pro-online vote advocates, they had a backup plan of some sort that seemed to thwart further hack attempts (I don't know what they did though).

    Online elections will not lead to massive fraud, no more than has happened with paper ballots in most countries already. The software set up by some of the online election companies is robust and undoubtedly have redundancies built in that can thwart potential hacks. Of course nothing if foolproof but there is no sense throwing up one's hands before trying.

    Maybe someone can explain to me why an online election would be any different to, say, online banking systems, for example? An online bank has a lot at stake as well, and is open to hack attempts 247, not just for 12 hours in 4 years.

    It also probably WILL mean a larger voter turnout, as people with internet access (quite a large percentage of registered voters, in Canada anyways) will find it easier to vote, as they have when filing their taxes online (another government system that hasn't been seriously hacked in the few years it has been active).

    Get used to on-line elections -- their "paper" trails are as good as we have already, and they attest to how robust software can be made to fend off serious and concentrated hack attempts.

  73. Internet voting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wouldn't worry about it too much. The election in the next town over is using Diebold vote counting machines. Lesser of two evils I guess...