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New IE Holes Discovered

joelt49 writes "Yahoo! News is reporting that 7 new security holes for Internet Explorer have been discovered by a Chinese researcher; however, there apparantly aren't any attacks on IE yet." The part about this story that gets to me is that the researcher didn't alert Microsoft before posting to a public mailing list. Sure, a lot of people don't like Microsoft, but that's no reason to make it worse for the millions of people who are forced to use Microsoft products, especially for security holes which have yet to be exploited.

120 of 801 comments (clear)

  1. Incident response times by Tet · · Score: 5, Insightful
    The part about this story that gets to me is that the researcher didn't alert Microsoft before posting to a public mailing list.

    Yep, not ideal. But it'll be interesting to see whether MS's claims of having a faster response time to security incidents that the Linux community stands up. Will they have a patch available withing the next day or so? You can guarantee that the Mozilla or Konqueror communities would have in the same circumstances...

    --
    "The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
    1. Re:Incident response times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You can guarantee that the Mozilla or Konqueror communities would have in the same circumstances...

      And would the Mozilla and Konqueror communities fully regression test their changes against all of the various software it might affect.. no.

    2. Re:Incident response times by Troed · · Score: 5, Informative

      Neither does Microsoft, as shown several times when their updates causes 3rd software to break - even in areas the patch wasn't supposed to touch.

      Feel free to Google.

    3. Re:Incident response times by Chexsum · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Itd be really strange if Mozilla broke my Window Manager or something. What exactly would they need to test it with?

      I can understand Internet Explorer needing to be tested against the rest of Windows and its APIs but Mozilla is a stand-alone web browser - as long as the API isnt affected it ['full regression testing'] shouldnt matter too much IMO.

      --
      Pixels keep you awake!
    4. Re:Incident response times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      All the big names (yes, even Microsoft) spend a boatload of money making sure Joe User can actually use their software.

      But only their software in the newest release. Third party software and older releases (you have to upgrade, loser!) will break regularly with service packs. Because they have a great QA, I'm sure this isn't intentional.

    5. Re:Incident response times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, yeah. And the problem with this is...?

      If you wanted a fix in a version of Apache, they'd tell you to upgrade. Yes, you could go through out the source code, figure out the fixed lines, and apply them to your Apache 1.2.14 setup. Of course, its just easier to upgrade.

    6. Re:Incident response times by Avihson · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Microsoft has been using the paying community as QA since at least MS-DOS 4.0 Have you been living in a cave all these years?

      The whole premise behind FSF is that it is FREE, the user accepts some responsibility in the transaction, in this case by reporting bugs and helping to test beta versions before the code is released live. You seem to be saying that Microsoft has never released code that was not finished, 100% Quality Assured, no Security holes.....

      If you believe so strongly in your statements, why do you post AC?
      So I say Mod the Grandparent DOWN, MS whiners be damned!

    7. Re:Incident response times by curious.corn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Oh, the joys of forceful integration... ;-) Now do you understand the importance of clean independent components with defined and carefully thought out APIs?

      --
      Mi domando chi à il mandante di tutte le cazzate che faccio - Altan
    8. Re:Incident response times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you wanted a fix in a version of Apache, they'd tell you to upgrade.

      But I have to upgrade a minor version (!) for free (!). I don't have to upgrade to apache-2. Even if I had to do this, I won't have to pay money to the apache foundation - so they have no interest in making me upgrade to a higher major version. That's a big difference in my opinion.

    9. Re:Incident response times by Error27 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Please list one problem someone has had because of a Mozilla security fix.

    10. Re:Incident response times by arkanes · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Doesn't matter - MS claims a 24 hour response time. Lets see it happen.

    11. Re:Incident response times by Begemot · · Score: 5, Informative

      ... as shown several times when their updates causes 3rd software to break ...

      It's even worse when done by design. Once a scoundrel - always a scoundrel.

    12. Re:Incident response times by PaulK · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yep, not ideal. But it'll be interesting to see whether MS's claims of having a faster response time to security incidents that the Linux community stands up.

      Have you seen what happens to people who report security issues to MS? Follow the full-disclosure and bugtraq lists sometime; you will be astounded. MS repeatedly ignores reports until there is an exploit. They have gone so far as to lock hotmail accounts of people reporting issues.



      They have repeatedly demonstrated a knee jerk reaction to deny problems until they're public, at which point they announce that they've been working been on it all along.

      Honestly, with their resources, they could give Linux a serious run on patch speed, but only if they change their mindset first.

    13. Re:Incident response times by Vlad_the_Inhaler · · Score: 2, Informative

      That brings back an old memory!

      Way back when I was getting my degree, one of the lecturers had implemented this interpretive language called Codil (COntext Dependent Information Language) in Cobol. It was apparently really good at solving certain types of problems, but one of it's own problems was that the interpreter partially depended on some bugs in that one particular Cobol compiler. When Bugfixes were applied, the author needed a description of the fixes so he could track down the problems they were causing his interpreter.

      Another problem will have been that the hardware he used was an ICL 1900 - a 24-bit machine with 6-bit bytes and whose successor (the ICL 2900, I think) was totally incompatable to it. ICL was taken over by Fujitsu some time in the 80's.

      Google has quite a few pointers Codil but they all appear to be historical.

      --
      Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
    14. Re:Incident response times by NortWind · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Microsoft has released service packs that kill peoples applications, so much so that they have had to remove the service pack and put in a differnt one to patch the broken patch. Even Microsoft can't check the way everything works with everything.

      The big differnce is that with open software, you can patch it yourself, or hire somebody to patch it for you. With MS, you can't patch it, and unless it effects enough people, you can't get MS to patch it either.

    15. Re:Incident response times by Luscious868 · · Score: 2

      Right on! I would love to know exactly what those idiots at Microsoft were smoking when they came up with that stupid, stupid idea. I understand they were trying to win the browser wars but they had no business integrating the browser into the OS like that. They could have just distributed IE with Windows and have it install by default. Sure users would be able to uninstall it, but how many home users would even bother to uninstall it and install their browser of choice as long as IE wasn't a total piece of crap? Not very many.

      I still use Windows as my primary OS (I love games and right now Linux doesn't cut it in the gaming department) but I haven't touched IE or Outlook Express in ages. Why bother? I run Mozilla Firebird and Mozilla Thunderbird and I'm pretty happy with the results. Bye bye pop-ups, bye bye 85% of spam, bye bye stupid security holes, bye bye e-mail worms and finally, hello tabbed browsing!.

    16. Re:Incident response times by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A critical bug in Konqueror and all of KDE becomes useless.

      This gets back to the terms sproketboy used: no "commingling" in a "properly written application".

      I won't go into a 10-page lecture on software engineering. But just because an application is depended on by any others doesn't mean they're comingled, or improperly written. A good component app will have a limited number of interfaces to the rest of the system (on the order of 10-200, and hopefully towards the low side).

      Testing the program's correctness on those interfaces gives you a high trust that it'll work correctly in the larger system.

      Microsoft(tm) IE(r) isn't like that. It doesn't have defined interfaces to the rest of the system. Its not an application which runs on the OS kernel and talks with other apps. It's source code is intermixed with much of the rest of the Windows OS. Testing every interface isn't enough to show that a new version is working right... you'd have to go through every line of code and see how it might possibly perturb Windows itself.

      Compared to component-interface testing, that's a prohitably lengthy task; a combinatorical explosion of places to check.

      no Kate working no editors

      Again, Kate is one component, and testing that component's agreement with each of its public interfaces should be enough to verify there are no critical bugs. That only works if the components are well-separated enough. But separation leads to slowness, and Microsoft wants to be fast.

    17. Re:Incident response times by jafac · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Will they have a patch available withing the next day or so? You can guarantee that the Mozilla or Konqueror communities would have in the same circumstances...

      I really wish someone had done a study, or that there was data somewhere to back that up. Sure, we've got a buttload of anecdotal evidence, but has anyone ever done a study of "average time to fix an exploit once discovered" by Proprietary Vendor versus Open Source?

      Such a study would be MOST enlightening.
      And greatly help some of us win arguments against Microsoft zealots.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    18. Re:Incident response times by Darren+Winsper · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually, you're wrong. I could do an "apt-get remove konqueror" and my KDE apps would still work fine.

    19. Re:Incident response times by heinousjay · · Score: 2

      Terrorism is a tactic used heavily by powerful governments; Nero burnt Rome, Hitler burnt the Reichstag, etc. It is actually very seldom employed by guerilla organizations.

      Art thou high?

      --
      Slashdot - where whining about luck is the new way to make the world you want.
    20. Re:Incident response times by Locutus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Mod the parent up. This one hits the nail on the head and is the heart of what's wrong with MS Windows and right with Linux. What Microsoft claims as integration is done in a way which brings the whole house down when one small part fails. The co-mingling of applications with the OS. Legal documentation even showed that this was originally done for anti-competitive reasons and now is being presented as the latest half-baked why MS Windows is supposedly better than Linux. This is not the design methodology used in the *nix world.

      This is also something to watch out for when developers try to mimic the Microsoft Windows system while making Linux more and more user friendly.

      IMHO

      LoB

      --
      "Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
    21. Re:Incident response times by Catskul · · Score: 2, Insightful

      People are stupid... its proven every couple seconds.

      --

      Im not here now... Im out KILLING pepperoni
    22. Re:Incident response times by davburns · · Score: 3, Informative
      It's been a while since I followed bugtraq/NTbugtraq. Does Microsoft still charge people $90 (up front -- but supposedly refundable) if they want to report a security bug?

      If they are, then I can see why researchers aren't playing their silly game, especially if they discover several bugs. Further, Microsoft is giving up a small advantage they could have over open source. If they allowed non-public reporting of security bugs, then they could have that information before the crackers get it, while open source bugs are generally reported to open developer lists.

    23. Re:Incident response times by mentin · · Score: 4, Insightful
      This is not the design methodology used in the *nix world.

      Code reuse is code reuse, whether it is Windows, Unix, or any other OS/app. Modern programmers are taught to do code reuse, and saing "This is not the design methodology used in the *nix world" is plain stupid.

      When gzip security hole was discovered, it hit hundreds of Unix applications, because they reused the code from this library. Is the "design methodology" any different?

      The gzip bug demonstrated that it sometimes can even be worse on *nix, due to source code coping instead of shared libs, so that the bug had to be fixed in multiple places.

      By the way, Netscape was / Mozilla is actively trying to make itself a platform for writing applications using its XPCOM/XUL and other technologies. It is not very successful so far, but when it will, its bugs and patches will hit lots of independent applications, just like bugs/patches in IE do now.

      --
      MSDOS: 20+ years without remote hole in the default install
    24. Re:Incident response times by iabervon · · Score: 2, Informative

      In the case of zlib, the library is sufficiently small that some other packages distribute a version of it as part of their own sources, instead of expecting the system to contain it. Furthermore, some packages contain modified versions of zlib to account for different conditions (for example, the linux kernel contained a version of zlib restricted to do only some operations, to keep the kernel from getting too big).

      When the bug was found, some other packages had to patch the versions of zlib they contained, but the critical thing to note is that the ones that included zlib could just apply the patch to the older API version they contained, or to the trimmed version, or whatever they had. This meant that people could apply the patch without breaking half of their software, which depended on the particular API they were using.

  2. it wouldn't change anything by __aaitqo8496 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't blame this guy for not going to Microsoft first. Given thier track record, more than likely, they would have ignored him until someone publicly announced the problems.

    P.S. Is it news anymore that IE has holes?

    1. Re:it wouldn't change anything by muffen · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Given thier track record, more than likely, they would have ignored him until someone publicly announced the problems.

      You may be right, but it still doesn't change anything. I think this guy should have told Microsoft first, waited, if they don't respond within 48 hours, report it.
      If you get a standard stupid automated copy/paste reply, report the holes.... but you SHOULD give the company some notice. As stated in the article, not giving the company any info just makes it bad for anyone having to use IE.

      Is it news anymore that IE has holes?

      Nope. Seriously, who here gives a crap about IE holes? Everyone here probably knows that using IE is about as secure as getting water in a fishingnet.

    2. Re:it wouldn't change anything by AtomicBomb · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It is pretty pathetic to deal with some big software company like Microsoft when reporting bugs... There is no simple way. A friend of mine did some scripting and discovered an obscured w2k bug (no big deal just causing yet another blue screen) by pure chance. He did some detective work and nailed down to the exact condition that triggers the problem. Since we are not doing security or serious low level programming, we don't have links with any relevant person in MS. When contacting the local MS office (we are in a small country, btw), the guy on the other end of the phone had no clue and put us thru technical support. Read: demanding $$$.

      At the end, we did not bother. After a few more months, it was made public (not by my friend though). Nowadays, reporting MS bug becomes a dangerous maneouver... If MS is really serious about security and good quality software, they would put a contact on the front page and offer reward for anyone who spots a new major bug. Before then, I don't see why we need to be nice to MS.... They say they are capitalist. We should respect their value and don't do any free work for them...

    3. Re:it wouldn't change anything by pjrc · · Score: 4, Interesting
      this guy should have told Microsoft first, waited, if they don't respond within 48 hours, report it.

      I believe the current "best practice" is to wait at least 1 week for the vendor to initially respond... and to give them at least 1 month to create a patch if they (privately) acknowledge the problem.

      But giving them ZERO hours is about as bad as it gets.

    4. Re:it wouldn't change anything by binner1 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I agree with you in theory, but if you look at it from the perspective of "how do you get the average user interested in alternatives?" angle, this might be the way to go.

      Consider that people use IE because "it's there," and not generally for any other reason. These people are going to continue to do so until the consequences are too high. Really, the same should apply to corporations too. The more often they get bent over, and the rougher those encounters are, the more the point gets "driven" home...I've been on a campaign lately trying to get people to switch from IE. I've been pushing Netscape 7.x instead of Mozilla though, as I find explaining the difference is tedious to say the least. I'd prefer if they used the AOL-brand free version, but Netscape is better than nothing.

      Really, this should go for all MS products with shoddy track records. Any time you have to explain why "the computer was infected with another virus, even though you had AntiVirus software," be very _blunt_ about the reasons. Internet Explorer was designed to kill Netscape, not be secure..."Yes, you're virus signatures were up-to-date (not likely), and you still got a virus." That's because MS knew about the problem 3 months ago but it wasn't made public so they didn't fix it. It's not Norton/McAfee's fault. This virus didn't exist until yesterday...

      Now, I'm not saying I think every use should immediately switch to Linux, but I do recommend Mac OS X quite often. I know that nothing is perfect, but it's time people started using _anything_ other than Windows and IE. Don't hide the flaws of the other systems. Yes, Mac OS X did have a problem recently. Nothing is perfect. Most things just happen to be more perfect than Windows and IE.

      -Ben

    5. Re:it wouldn't change anything by JInterest · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You may be right, but it still doesn't change anything. I think this guy should have told Microsoft first, waited, if they don't respond within 48 hours, report it.

      Given that threats of litigation may be less expensive than fixing the endless supply of security holes in proprietary software, and the litigious character of American business practices, I'm not convinced.

      A researcher who contacts the vendor and then releases information on the security holes later may be accused of extortion, as has happened to at least one Italian security expert. It isn't worth it.

      From the point of view of making these exploits known so that they can be fixed, while also protecting one's self from charges of extortion, simply releasing the exploits on public forums -- and thus forcing the vendor to do a quick fix -- may be the lesser of two evils, if not the optimal solution.

      I will say that I think this is probably an appropriate approach only when dealing with commercial entities, particularly known "bad actors" like Microsoft whose responses might be driven by marketing rather than by a desire for technical excellence. For open-source or community projects where volunteerism of any kind is encouraged, letting the maintainers know about the problem first is the better choice, if only because the risk of any litigation is pretty minimal.

    6. Re:it wouldn't change anything by chromatic · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think that's much too simple an explanation, for at least two reasons.

      First, the source code is available for Mozilla. I would think it easier to find security holes by reading the source code than by randomly sending input to a binary. (Of course, I know how to read code and I've never tried to exploit a binary.)

      Second, Apache, for example, is used far more often than IIS and it has far fewer exploits.

      The argument that popularity is the primary determinant of exploitage seems to ignore the possibility that some software is more secure than other software. That's a big elephant to ignore.

    7. Re:it wouldn't change anything by ExtraT · · Score: 5, Informative

      I used to work in Microsoft technical support. From my experience, MS does everything to avoid receiving bug reports from end users, their system is designed in such a way that bug reports are automatically dropped, unless the originate from a pro support client (which pays millions of dollars for support). What this guy did is not only right, but also it is the only moral thing to do. Companies like MS should pay for their bad business practices.

  3. It's hardly bad... by shfted! · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sure, a lot of people don't like Microsoft, but that's no reason to make it worse for the millions of people who are forced to use Microsoft products, especially for security holes which have yet to be exploited.

    If OSS people can fix the bugs in less than half a day, it should be a piece of cake for a giant software company with lots of programmers to do the same. Sure, a days warning would have been nice, but if there isn't a fix by tonight, it only shows badly on Microsoft.

    --
    He who laughs last is stuck in a time dilation bubble.
    1. Re:It's hardly bad... by PickyH3D · · Score: 2, Funny
      On a weekend/holiday?

      At least do it on a Monday thru Thursday.

    2. Re:It's hardly bad... by curious.corn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Real programmers don't need to regression test the whole world for a simple bug: they fix the broken method, recompile and repackage. Real programmers design clean APIs and classes where the public methods don't need to change to fix a silly bug. On the other hand if the security fix requires breaking class compatibility then it's not a bug, it's a poor design failure...

      --
      Mi domando chi à il mandante di tutte le cazzate che faccio - Altan
    3. Re:It's hardly bad... by tomstdenis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Let me guess. You're not a "real programmer"?

      If you don't re-test your product before releasing [even with the smallest change] then you poorly understand the software engineering principles that would have been taught to you in a decent higher education school.

      Most stable products have test scripts at the very least [like perl or even bzip2 for that matter!] that run as a natural part of the build process.

      You can't just change a line, rebuild and send it out and then not expect to see many "oopses" in your future.

      Tom

      --
      Someday, I'll have a real sig.
    4. Re:It's hardly bad... by jridley · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, the "real programmer" parent is being pretty naive in regards to Microsoft.

      Certainly, he's right, IN THEORY. However, the truth is that people come to RELY ON undocumented behavior in Microsoft APIs. When you do something under the hood that changes one undocumented behavior to another, you stand a chance of breaking things that a programmer wrote, intending to take advantage of that undocumented behavior.

      Sure, you can blame the 3rd party programmer for trying to use an undocumented behavior.

      But guess what? You can't write serious apps for the Microsoft platform without bumping into undocumented behavior, or behavior that is DIFFERENT than what is documented as "correct."

      I work on a mature, very large, vertical market product that runs under Windows. Our programmers sometimes have to spend timeblack-box testing some API to find out how it REALLY works, as opposed to how Microsoft says it's supposed to work.

      And guess what? Next service pack, it might just break our code. What is our recourse? Why, to fix OUR BUG, of course. Obviously it's OUR BUG because it'd be silly to claim that MICROSOFT was at fault.

      The truth is, Microsoft does regression testing against THEIR *CURRENT* software. You can tell because when their service packs break 3rd party software, it never breaks MS Office. This is what leads customers to think that obviously it's OUR problem not Microsoft's.

    5. Re:It's hardly bad... by arevos · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think you've misunderstood the parent post. It seemed to me as if he was claiming that there's no need to test the whole software and all software it may affect, if it's coded right. Ideally, all you'd need to do is run the unit tests over the affected class, module, or whatever. I'd probably run a test over the software as a whole just to check, but I shouldn't need to (in theory!).

      Problem with Microsoft fixes is that they sometimes break other things. That's what the parent was complaining about. A patch should not only not break any other software, but it shouldn't be possible to break other software. "Real programmers don't need to regression test the whole world for a simple bug". He's not talking about dumping testing, just commenting that the fact Microsoft patches break things points to a rather bad API.

      Of course, saying Microsoft products have a bad API is rather like commenting that the sky is blue. They make money off their bad APIs. The more obscure their code and document formats are, the more difficult they are to clone. Microsoft doesn't want to be surplanted in the same way they surplanted Lotus 1 2 3 with Excel.

    6. Re:It's hardly bad... by cooldev · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's ridiculous. No decent OS should allow itself to ever be crashed by any application software.

      Re-read the parent's post. He's not talking about Microsoft having to do workarounds for bad apps to prevent Windows from crashing. The workarounds are to prevent the bad 3rd party app from crashing.

      For example, many apps written for Win9x had tons of flaws with heap overflows, double-freeing pointers, dangling pointers, etc., but the developers "lucked out" and their apps didn't crash. However, when you tried to run the app on Win2k/XP it would fall over and die. In order to make XP compatible with older software they had to port the whole Win9x memory manager to XP and "shim" the memory functions in those apps so they'd work.

      There's a lot more to it than that, MS expends an astounding amount of effort to ensure that old software will run. Check out the application compatibility database sometime.

      (And even worse, Microsoft provides tools that you can run your app under to see if you have many of the types of flaws that create application compatibility problems (and random crashes), yet almost no developers use them.)

  4. New Rival to Internet Explorer... by xirtam_work · · Score: 5, Funny
    Microsoft are about to announce a replacement for Internet Explorer called 'MS String Vest'.

    A spokesman was quoted as saying, "It's the only way we can release a product with more holes than IE".

    It is unconfirmed if StringVest will be integrated into Windows XP SP2 or if we will have to wait until LongHorn is released.

  5. I've been trying my best to switch people away by The+Analog+Kid · · Score: 5, Interesting

    ...from IE. I tell people about the built-in pop-up blocker, and the adaptive spam filter in Mozilla. I also tell people about the nice long list of IE vulnerablities like the ones in this article, I've gotten quite a few to switch away from IE, to either Mozilla, Mozilla Firebird, or Opera. It's all about using the big words when you persuade them to switch.

    1. Re:I've been trying my best to switch people away by Chalybeous · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I use Mozilla Firebird, myself, and like you, I've tried to encourage my friends to switch.
      Doesn't help much when I'm forced to use a university workstation (like today), but I find it's a better quality browser than IE. Renders faster, blocks pop-ups, and I find tabbed browsing to be pretty much invaluable.
      Of course, the best thing about Firebird is, I can still watch Doctor Who: Scream of the Shalka ;-)

      There are, of course, some times when you have to use IE (like Windows Update, though I guess I could always just download each update manually).

      The big problem I've hit is that, even with all these MSIE vulnerabilities that come out on a near-weekly basis - not to mention annoying pop-ups and pop-unders, and other little security-related issues - I don't seem to have any success.
      So what's your persuasive technique for getting people onto pre-1.0, non-MS, reliable-but-not-100%-complete software?

      --

      "It is dark. You are likely to be eaten by a grue." -- Zork

    2. Re:I've been trying my best to switch people away by quandrum · · Score: 2, Insightful

      how does an adaptive spam-filter affect web browsing?

      I don't think intellectual dishonesty is the right way to get people to switch.

    3. Re:I've been trying my best to switch people away by squiggleslash · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Absolutely.

      I have a neighbour whose computer is currently fried - it'll apparently not boot at the moment, and needs a reinstall of whatever version of Windows it runs. She came over recently and said at some point she needs to use the Internet, and when I offered to let her use my connection said "Oh, I'd be using it for hours".

      So I offered her a laptop. I told her if she makes sure she uses it on the side of the appartment closest to mine she'd be within range of my wireless network "so you'll not have to do anything, just switch it on and start browsing".

      "Oh" she said, obviously hearing words like "wireless" and "network" and "browser", "That sounds far too complicated!"

      I am still gobsmacked about that one, but you're right: it's the words. The more you try to explain to someone how much better (or even how much easier) something is, the more complicated they assume it is. And that really works against you when trying to explain how much simpler something is because by default they assume they'll have to do all the stuff they do now: if you explain they'll not need to, it's hard to word it in such a way that it doesn't sound complicated to a non-technical user.

      I suspect that's Mozilla's real problem (and the problem with so many platforms previously that were technically superior, and much more user friendly) - the technical people are the ones who realise the benefits, so everyone assumes you have to be a genius to use them.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    4. Re:I've been trying my best to switch people away by back_pages · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I have had success getting people onto Firebird by explaining how ActiveX exploits work and exactly how people get software like GAIN/Gator, Bonzai Buddy, NewDotNet, CometCursor, Weather Bug, Precise Time, etc., and that these programs main objective is to gather information about the computer user and return it to corporate headquarters where it is then used to generate more and more pop up advertisements for the user.

      Everyone is shocked that these programs are not designed to do them a favor. They're disguisted that this is the cause of yet more pop up advertisements.

      I then tell them that Mozilla/Firebird is NOT being developed with corporate dollars and therefore has the user's interests at heart. It does not include the ActiveX or thousands of other unfixed security flaws, and you will honest to God never see a pop up advertisement again in your life. The tabbed browsing, type-ahead link find, slash page search functions are all icing on the cake.

      I have switched at least ten people this way, none of them are computer people. Fraternity girls, seniors, parents who just want to check their email, etc.

      Also, Thunderbird is a marvelous replacement for Outlook if all you want is an email client. It usually only takes one virus infection, formatted disk, and complete reinstallation to get people off of Outlook forever and ever and ever. I would think that alone is alarming enough to people at Microsoft, but I haven't seen any indication that they're going to try to produce software that's more useful to users rather than bad guys. It's truly baffeling.

    5. Re:I've been trying my best to switch people away by theancient2 · · Score: 2, Informative

      I believe there are a few issues the Mozilla people need to address before their browser will be widely accepted by the general population. I'm not talking about people like you and me, I'm talking about people like my mother.

      For example, install Mozilla, and all your Favourites disappear. They're probably buried in the Bookmarks menu somewhere (sometimes they're not imported at all), but to the average user, they might as well be gone. Or, at best, it takes longer to get to them. There's no good reason for that. I want my bookmarks where I put them -- who is Mozilla to move them into a submenu? Same with the Links toolbar -- all the bookmarks the user is used to having one click away are now gone. This creates the perception that IE is easier to use, and encourages users to switch back to IE. Worse, when you modify the bookmarks in Mozilla, the changes don't show up in IE, the Start menu, or anywhere else that uses the Microsoft method of storing favourites. You end up with two unsynchronized sets of bookmarks.

      These sorts of things may not matter to any of you, reading this, but put Mozilla down in front of your mother, and she'll say, "I want it back the way I'm used to."

      It's the little, basic features, that matter most to the general population.

    6. Re:I've been trying my best to switch people away by Artifakt · · Score: 2, Funny

      I put Firebird 0.7 on the wife's PC, and convinced her to try it. She's not a techie type, but she is just about computer literate enough to know most programs can be adjusted some way or other, and to look for a preferences tab on the menus. (If the tab names don't seem self descriptive in normal english, she hollers for me, if they do she tries it on her own). After giving her about a week to get used to the interface, I suggested she try to pick a skin she liked better than the default. She set a few things, asked about some others, and then called me to see a tab that went to a developer's message (which read something like "in the finished version, this will do foo.") I explained to her that Firebird wasn't up to version 1.0 yet, just "point seven". She asked me what IE was up to ("About 6.0, honey"). Then she said, "So Microsoft multiplies all theirs by 10?"

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
  6. blablabla by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The part about this story that gets to me is that the researcher didn't alert Microsoft before posting to a public mailing list.

    Believe me, in these days that is the only way to report bugs AND making sure they'll get fixed.

    Dream world scenario:

    1) Report bug to company
    2) Company will announce the bug to the public
    3) Company will fix the bug as soon as possible

    Real World scenario 1:

    1) Report bug to company
    2) They don't report it to the public and they don't fix it
    3) You report it to the public
    4) Company sues you for IP violation or any other shit they can pull out of their asses

    Real World scenario 2:

    1) Report it to the public (anonymously).
    2) Company will fix it

  7. Immediate full disclosure is best security practic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Seriously - AS SOON AS THERE IS A VULNERABILITY, I, as a sysadmin, want to know about it. I don't give a flying fuck about Microsoft's reputation, or whether "vendors need time to patch the hole" - while there is a known hole, I DON'T WANT MY FUCKING SYSTEM ONLINE. If a nice guy can discover it, the bad guys probably already have.

    The "give us time to fix the hole/do a P.R. coverup" fiasco is WHY I DON'T USE MICROSOFT SOFTWARE ANYMORE.

  8. Topic was briefly discussed at NTBugTraq by Lieutenant_Dan · · Score: 5, Informative

    Russ Cooper made some good points.

    I think MS has the responsibility to address their customers concerns immediatelly (naive, I know), especially IE's overly close integration with the OS which causes most of these exploits.

    --
    Wearing pants should always be optional.
  9. Just downloaded the IE patches by charlieafrid · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I just downloaded the latest IE patches this morning and now IE wouldnt even start....its doing nothing. Time to move my bookmarks to the firebird....tonight.

    1. Re:Just downloaded the IE patches by focitrixilous+P · · Score: 2, Interesting

      heh, Firebird should grab them for you. At least it did for me. Puts all your old links into an imported IE folder. So switch already, you open source n00b!

      --
      SAILING MISHAP
    2. Re:Just downloaded the IE patches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Thank you mods for moderating this +5, Interesting. Obviously, you didn't bother to look for the patches (which are, of course, non-existant).
      But here's the REAL kicker. What if the story was about Mozilla bugs and the guy posted this:

      Subject: Just downloaded the Mozilla patches

      Comment: I just downloaded the latest Mozilla patches this morning and now Mozilla wouldnt even start....its doing nothing. Time to move my bookmarks to IE....tonight.

      Would this have gotten a +5, Interesting? I THINK NOT!

  10. Forced? by Call+Me+Black+Cloud · · Score: 5, Interesting

    the millions of people who are forced to use Microsoft products

    I'm not forced to use Windows - I use it by choice. So does everyone else I know who uses Windows. As you may know, there is a viable alternative to Windows: OS X.

    Oh wait, actually at my last job I was forced to use Windows. When the company purchased a new computer for me (I'm a software developer) I requested an Apple but was turned down. They didn't want to spend the money and didn't want to deal with integration on the network. I doubt the number of people being "forced" to use Windows numbers in the millions though. Besides, there was a benefit to the Windows box that the company certainly never intended - a wider variety of LAN games to play head-to-head against my office mate.

    1. Re:Forced? by haxor.dk · · Score: 3, Informative

      Sorry to burst your bubble, but:

      1) There are virtually no "integration" issues between Mac OS X and Windows. OS X supportes Samba out of the box.

      2) I thought most companies frowned upon games on company computers , on company time ?

    2. Re:Forced? by MKalus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I bet you most people in Big Corporations are forced to use windows (not that they know any different).

      I know I am forced to use windows at work, even though either a Mac or any Unix Desktop would do.

      I ditch IE whenever I can, but for example our HR Website and anything else RELIES on Windows, no way around it.

      --
      If you want to e-mail me, use my PGP Key.
    3. Re:Forced? by thenextpresident · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "I'm not forced to use Windows - I use it by choice. So does everyone else I know who uses Windows."

      Your choice to use Windows was an illusion. Microsoft is a monopoly. It's as simple as that. When you went to buy a computer, and you walked into the little store, did you see a lot Macs, or a crap load of Windows PCs?

      Just because their was another option doesn't mean Microsoft was any less of a monopoly. Consider what happened with AT&T and all the baby-bells. You didn't have to use a Phone, their were other forms of communication. Many people made a choice to use the Phone.

      The problem is that you didn't choose to buy Windows. You choose to buy a computer, and had not choice buy to get Windows on it. It's only recently this is starting to change.

      --
      Jason Lotito
  11. mom's not sucked into ie anymore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    i installed fedora core 1 on her machine on thanksgiving... everything's been great, and her p4 1.8ghz is actually behaving like a machine with that sort of speed, not the slow as poo windows she had before... she was nervous at first, but all her banking/mail stuff works just fine under mozilla.

    maybe it's stuff like this that we need, and more people should get their families exposed to it...

    momentum, people, momentum.

  12. Public mailing list? by Amiga+Lover · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The part about this story that gets to me is that the researcher didn't alert Microsoft before posting to a public mailing list.

    Thats because Microsoft's past record is to ignore people who have contacted them privately regarding security issues, or take legal action against them.

    If you really wanted something fixed by MS, and the last 15 times you'd contacted them they'd ignored you, but you've seen someone else release information into the wild and get MS's attention re: a fix within hours... WWYD?

  13. haha by SHEENmaster · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I can understand the desire for such vulnerabilities to be fixed before going public, but Microsoft has been known to sweep exploits under the rug for as many as twelve years. Exploits are a common fact of life with Microsoft products, and its better that this exploit was released to all as an explanation than as a virus/worm.

    --
    You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
  14. Having tried a few of these by mindstrm · · Score: 5, Interesting

    On Windows XP.. stock up to date installation... these remote EXE exploits he posted don't seem to do anything.

  15. Addendum by Lieutenant_Dan · · Score: 4, Informative

    I like this release.

    Disable Active Scripting and find an alternative to IE ("use another product"). Not very realistic unfortunately, when companies have invested so much in integrating (and accepting) some of the flawed functionality in IE.

    I do find that people are starting to be a lot more receptive towards MS-alternatives, especially when the mass media is now jumping on the bandwagon as well. Now techies find themselves explaining their choice of MS over and over again, to hype-induced managers.

    --
    Wearing pants should always be optional.
    1. Re:Addendum by bug-eyed+monster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not very realistic unfortunately, when companies have invested so much in integrating (and accepting) some of the flawed functionality in IE.

      Are you talking about internet companies or companies using IE for their intranet apps? If a company is using IE-specific functionality to offer services over the internet, they deserve to get bitten periodically. I have no sympathy for any company that provides a service to the "public" but forces them to use one specific browser.

      On the other hand, it is quite common to use IE-specific functionality for intranet applications. That's not a problem, one assumes that the intranet server is safe. The solution is to continue to use IE for intranet (and remove all links to internet sites from intranet apps), but use a more secure product to access the internet.

  16. At least he reported it to someone!!! by Seahawk91 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    WE could have found out about it when our sytems started acting up.

  17. Mozilla! by dereklam · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Sure, a lot of people don't like Microsoft, but that's no reason to make it worse for the millions of people who are forced to use Microsoft products, especially for security holes which have yet to be exploited.

    I can understand complaining about being forced to use Windows. However, no one is "forced" to use Internet Explorer, even on Windows---Mozilla is a better alternative in Windows.

    Most of my family and co-workers use Mozilla, and they haven't looked back.

  18. Forced to use IE? by Realistic_Dragon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is not like Windows-Linux, where there is a steep learning curve.

    Mozilla (or Phoenix) is a slick alternative with an almost zero learning curve to pick up the same level as IE. It also takes almost no time to learn features _that aren't in IE anyway_ that help you see the internet in a much more useful way (ad blocking etc).

    No one is forced to use IE with very few exceptions:

    People who have it mandated at work, but that's work's problem not yours - they could change too.
    People on dialup who have a very slow net connection - but they probably have it on a dial up CD.
    People who use it's integrated rendering engine for OE/HTML email - but you can change that easily too.
    People who _must_ access IE only websites - but there are very few of these any more, and you can always use IE just for these to lower your exposure.
    Microsoft Zelots who refuse to believe that Free software can be any good - but they deserve everything they get.

    --
    Beep beep.
  19. Sometimes it's all about timing by harmonics · · Score: 5, Insightful

    While my firm is a strong supporter of full disclosure, this is rather over the top.

    What makes it worse is the timing, over a holiday weekend (States side), where most systems staff will be unable to apply patches or mitigate risks.

    Now this is an Internet Explorer exploit, hence, few people using IE at work over the weekend. It still provides 48 hours for a few unsavory individuals to develop exploits for Monday morning.

    We need to exercise better judgement when dealing with vendors and security issues, this isn't the first time things like this have happened, and won't be the last.

    Perhaps we should consider spending more effort creating a Security Researchers Organization as has been discussed on BugTraq .

    Until we have a strong unified organization I believe we will continue to see unresponsive vendors and poorly timed vulnerability releases.

    1. Re:Sometimes it's all about timing by TheLink · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Look at the researcher's site:

      http://www.safecenter.net/UMBRELLAWEBV4/ie_unpatch ed/

      There used to be a bigger list at: http://www.pivx.com/larholm/unpatched/ but hey MS didn't do anything about it.

      So might as well just report it directly to the public and skip all the MS BS.

      --
  20. actually, this is old by the_mighty_$ · · Score: 5, Informative

    hey folks, this was posted to bugtraq some two months ago.

    --
    VI VI VI - the editor of the beast!
    1. Re:actually, this is old by krbvroc1 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      hey folks, this was posted to bugtraq some two months ago.

      That is why I don't understand what all the hoopin' and hollerin' is all about. Microsoft has known about this for quite some time. In addition, two months ago when the demonstration/exploit was make publicly available the author clearly stated that one of the exploit techniques had been documented for over 2 years.

      I'm curious for those here who think this should have been reported to MS first, please post the email addr or website where one would report this -- that would be a public service. I dont have a lot of faith they would have acted even if told -- but for future reference.

  21. Microsoft is being forced to eat their dogfood... by SwansonMarpalum · · Score: 4, Informative

    Microsoft has claimed time and again that their response times to security alerts are sterling, as opposed to the "slow" response times for OSS. They make these claims without telling consumers that they have known about the exploit for months and are publicly releasing knowledge right before they release the fix.

    This is a case of people letting Microsoft's boastful ways catch up to it. If they are as fast as they have claimed, time and again, there won't be a problem for those people who are diligent in patching.

    Additionally with the advent of companies using the DMCA to try and stifle this behavior, it is more important than ever to engage in it and further show the flaws with this absolutely off the wall piece of legislation. See this article.

    --
    "Give away the stone, let the oceans take and transmutate this cold and faded anchor." - Maynard James Keenan
  22. Re:Unbelievable Arrogance by thenextpresident · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "I'd like to know who the editor thinks are "forcing" people to use Microsoft products."

    People at work who have to use Windows because it's work mandated.

    Their's millions of those type of people...

    --
    Jason Lotito
  23. Re:This has gone on long enough! by thenextpresident · · Score: 3, Funny

    "Using Microsoft products is not genetics or how we were raised. It's a choice and we're damn proud of it."

    Actually, it wasn't a choice. MS had a monopoly, and therefore, you really had no choice.

    --
    Jason Lotito
  24. Re:Immediate full disclosure is best security prac by sqlrob · · Score: 4, Insightful

    it wouldn't have been 'a known hole', but to the Microsoft developers

    Prove it. Anything that can be found by a white/gray hat can be found or was already found by a black hat.

  25. What I don't understand... by fermion · · Score: 5, Interesting
    The part about this story that gets to me is that the researcher didn't alert Microsoft before posting to a public mailing list.

    What irks me is that MS did not discover these themselves. After all, the closed source, security by obscurity, we can do it all ourselves model of software development is so superior, that we can only draw one of two conclusions. Either their superior technicians found the problems already, but the management decided not to put in the resources to fix it, or their superior technicians did not find the bug, in which case they need to not only fix the problem, but understand why their process so routinely fails.

    This is not an issue of hating MS, any more than the other recent alert was an issue of hating Apple. It is an issue of knowing there is a problem out there, but having no power in the official process to correct the problem. The only power the might be had is that of public relations. This is very different from OSS, in which one can potentially affect the development process and at least see that something is being done.

    This whole issue of course assumes that dozens of other people have not already found the bug and are exploiting it on small scales not easily detectible by the common methods. And of course does not take into account the ability for people to switch browsers. Just imagine how many lives would have been saved if people had been fully aware of the incompetent design of the Explorer and bought other cars instead.

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    1. Re:What I don't understand... by SoTuA · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Just imagine how many lives would have been saved if people had been fully aware of the incompetent design of the Explorer and bought other cars instead.

      Truly. Makes one wonder if there are internal memos in M$ that warn of the possible mayhem in IE and are swept under the rug like the Explorer chassis problems in Ford motor...

      Oh, and for bonus points, both products are "Explorers" ;)

  26. Chicken before the egg by CooCooCaChoo · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The part about this story that gets to me is that the researcher didn't alert Microsoft before posting to a public mailing list. Sure, a lot of people don't like Microsoft, but that's no reason to make it worse for the millions of people who are forced to use Microsoft products, especially for security holes which have yet to be exploited.

    Although in a perfect world, we would have companies auditing their own code and finding exploits in their own products, the fact remains that unless there is a perverable rocket aimed at their behind, nothing will be done.

    The fact remains that we have an organisation here with over 40,000 employees, over $40billion dollars in cash and yet, they're making *really* stupid mistakes. I am sure most people could cut Microsoft some slack if they were a small business OR that these incidents were as rare as hens teeth, however, when it becomes "have you applied the daily patch", people lose their cool.

    The unfortunate thing, however, is due to Microsofts huge marketing muscle, this approach by "exploit finders" doesn't work. Microsoft instead of taking on board the information and applogising, instead they spin the story as to make out that the person who finds the exploit is somehow linked to a grand anti-Microsoft conspiracy, and god forbid, call them a "terrorist" for "exposing" the unwashed masses to "harm".

    --

    "The difference between pornography and erotica is the lighting" - Woody Allen

  27. Re:er... by Ianoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What makes you think all Chinese are communists? That's like saying all Germans were Nazis during WWII, which is very very far from the truth. The problem in totalitarian regimes is that you're not allowed to say anything substantial against the government... but it's not illegal to think it (well, not yet anyway).

  28. Perspective and Comparison by HohlerMann · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Side one - Internet Explorer badly coded, so there's lots of vulnerabilities.

    Side two - Since Internet Explorer is used so widely, there's a lot more people looking for problems with it, and the ratio of bugs found to the number of users is moderatley comparable to any other browser.

    An interesting study would be a comparison between the number and kinds (garbled text to root exploit) of bugs known for each browser (what's the cut-off point? any bug from the first alpha version to the "final" version? Or just for the current revision?) versus the number of approximate users.

  29. seven old holes, five new ones, and an exploit. by erp6502 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Huh. From R'ing TFA, it seems there is an exploit using five new security holes disclosed on 11/25/03, not the seven originally reported on 9/11/03.

  30. yes, forced, ESCAPE NOW. by twitter · · Score: 2, Informative
    No one is forced to use IE with very few exceptions:

    Not true, Microsoft makes it very difficult to use anything but Microsoft junk. The first level of anoyance is a barage of scary warning messages about "signed code". Then there are constant anoyance messages which require confirmation and include the option you don't want. In time, you will push the wrong button. Finally, Microsoft breaks other programs on their platform. My little brother uses XP and keeps it "up to date" by accepting whatever M$ pushes at him. It broke Mozilla. I consider that a force.

    The only way to avoid all of that harassment and the insecurity that it creates is to leave M$ completely. If you still think it takes a lot of effort, you need to play with Knoppix. The only trouble you might have is with winmodems and other nastier hardware which does not work well under windblows either. It's easier for indiviuals to install and way easy for technicians. It's good for individual users and far superior for business.

    There's probably someone near you who will do an install for less than the Windblows install going rate. Just google your town name with "free software", Linux and other likely terms. Hungry geeks, such as myself, will happily come to your house for $40 and set you up. Businesses will pay by the hour but save hundreds per machine and employee every year.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

  31. No Notification by Goo.cc · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "The part about this story that gets to me is that the researcher didn't alert Microsoft before posting to a public mailing list."

    There is no requirement to notify Microsoft, nor should there be. I want to know about this kind of stuff as soon as possible. In my opinion, it is not for Microsoft to determine when I know that my computer has a security problem.

    Besides, this kind of thing should show if Microsoft's boasting about response time to security vulnerabilities is the truth or just plain old anti-open source FUD.

  32. Eating your own dog food by Locutus · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Isn't this a term used for having to deal with the issues related to choices made? Why should anybody expect others let Microsoft sugar coat the mess they released on the world? Those who use MS products must pay the price of such a choice. Those who consider they have no choice because IT gives them no choice have to play on the theadmill Microsoft and their IT departments put them on and should make their IT staff fix the problem. IMHO.

    When will Microsoft go to court for all of this crap? Can you imagine purchasing a new car and seeing a note on the seat. You open the door of your new car and read the note. It says that the auto maker has no responsibility to how the car works or if it will work.... The auto makers can't pull the kind of EUL that Microsoft gets away with. Yet no lawsuits. What gives?

    LoB

    --
    "Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
  33. wow, that's moving. by twitter · · Score: 2
    we might feel liberated to use Microsoft products? It's like looking out into the ocean, seeing a swarm of sharks feeding in the surf, and then choosing to paddle out to ride the waves. It's an adrenaline rush.

    It's more like a blue screen of death after innumerable pop-up anoyances. Oh, the thrill of crap that does not work. Wooot. If that turns you on, you must be on Bill Gate's payroll. I prefer to get things done.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

  34. "Forced to use Microsoft products" ? by chrysalis · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't understand the "forced to use Microsoft products" part.

    Even when you need to work on Windows, why should you be _forced_ to use Internet Exploder?
    Mozilla is the first thing I always install on Windows.

    There are organizations where people are indeed forced to use a fixed set of software. In this case, if there's a security hole, the responsability belongs to the sysadmin who forced people to use broken and out of date software.

    --
    {{.sig}}
  35. Re:This has gone on long enough! by Xpilot · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's bad that enough nerdy Microsoft Windows users must endure the incessant rudeness of Linux users to get their 'news that matters' on Slashdot. But for CowBoy Neal to permit a discussion topic that implies we are slaves to Microsoft is just plain offensive. Did you ever once consider we might feel liberated to use Microsoft products? It's like looking out into the ocean, seeing a swarm of sharks feeding in the surf, and then choosing to paddle out to ride the waves. It's an adrenaline rush.

    Why do you come here then? There are other places where you can get your tech news you know. Slashdot has a rather vicious anti-Windows slant to it, and doesn't apologize for it. If that bothers you, go elsewhere. Personally, I love it here for the exact same reason you hate it. I'm surrounded by idiotic Microsoft apologists in real life, so this is one place I can be comfortable.

    --
    "Backups are for wimps. Real men upload their data to an FTP site and have everyone else mirror it." -- Linus Torvalds
  36. using Mozilla is not a cure all by puck01 · · Score: 4, Informative

    I wrote this above and I"ll post it again, using an alternate browser does not always protect you from IE holes. I cannot comment on these new holes because I'm not sure how they work, but some previous IE holes left the computer vulnerable whether or not you actually used IE at all! An unfortunate consequence of the browser integration with the OS.

    So the fact that I'm using Mozilla on Win 98 right now, doe not mean I'm guarenteed immunity from these new holes.

  37. I can imagine not giving info to MS by Yaa+101 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    These big companies have their mouth full of punishing people that tell they found holes in applications.
    Also I find that MS is so bold and arrogant to ask money for everything and tells others to stop doing things for nothing...
    Let them pay for the info on security problems...
    No payment, no bug reports, period.
    They can take care of themselfs? ok let them solve their own problems...

  38. Re:Immediate full disclosure is best security prac by azzy · · Score: 2, Funny

    MS Windows and IE are insecure and full of bugs. They will compromise your security. I suggest you stop using them now. ;)

  39. A little slow... by 4A6F656C · · Score: 2, Interesting
    This was first posted on Bugtraq several days ago, five days ago to be precise... Looks like Yahoo and the rest of the media are just starting to catch on now...

    It is a *new* security exploit, based on several new security holes that Li Die Yu found. Given Microsoft's history of rapid responses, I guess one could be forgiven for not even attempting a notification. Has anyone seen a patch from Microsoft yet? ;)

    Oh, and the way to avoid potential future exploits, disable scripting within the Internet zone... (or use another browser!)

  40. No Exploit, eh? by GaelenBurns · · Score: 5, Informative

    What I'm wondering is why the poster of this story didn't do a tad more research before posting. As of yesterday, an exploit for these security holes has been available.

    Exploit code, anyone? A simple google search or a Bugtraq archive browse should do it.

    1. Re:No Exploit, eh? by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As of yesterday, an exploit for these security holes has been available.

      The statement "There aren't any attacks on IE yet" doesn't mean there are no exploits, just that no one is using exploits (attacking).

    2. Re:No Exploit, eh? by Geek+of+Tech · · Score: 2, Funny
      Great. Crackers work faster than Microsoft. Great. Maybe if they were to start hiring the crackers...

      --
      Stop the Slashdot effect! Don't read the articles!
    3. Re:No Exploit, eh? by djdavetrouble · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Truly. Also, if there is exploit code, someone is using it, just maybe not as part of a trojan or virus yet. Patch or no patch, you can bet that there will be an exploit being used in the wild within a matter of hours or a day at the maximum. The latest trojan/worm/virii are programs that deliver huge amounts of machines to spammers and hackers to become part of their DOS botnets or spamnets, with built in backdoors, etc. Were you on irc the day that the mirc xdcc flaw was discovered? I received no less than 30 malformed xdcc requests that day. Discovery of a new flaw is like free candy to script kidz. Twice the 0wned machines, half the hacking.

      --
      music lover since 1969
    4. Re:No Exploit, eh? by The+Real+Chrisjc · · Score: 2, Funny

      Don't you mean 'cracking'?

    5. Re:No Exploit, eh? by djdavetrouble · · Score: 2, Troll

      whatever. As long as you understand my communication i am happy to let you delude yourself that everyone (else besides 'hackers'_) gives a flying crack hack smack what the diff is between a hacker and a cracker and a phreaker.

      Trying to legitimize the word 'hacking' is about as futile as trying to get folks to say gnu/linux. To me cracking means removing copy protection from software a la 80's apple // era.

      --
      music lover since 1969
  41. Microsoft makes money on their software... by Codifex+Maximus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    so if they want us to let them know about problems then they should pay us for the information.

    If they want us to test their stuff then they should pay us to do it; rather than charging us for the privelege of testing their stuff.

    --
    Codifex Maximus ~ In search of... a shorter sig.
  42. Perhaps the Microsoft spokesman is lying by Error27 · · Score: 5, Informative

    These security problems were publically known in September.

    What was released recently was sample exploit code.

    If you are a Microsoft spokesman then, of course, you have to say that, "Hey, if we don't have a fix then it must mean we didn't know about it." So it's not even lying to say that you weren't told. It's the only logical thing.

    The spokesman was not aware that Microsoft had released unmarked patches for some of the problems.

  43. Hoo boy by Mr.+Darl+McBride · · Score: 2, Interesting
    From the article:
    Cooper said, however, he was not yet concerned about the security holes because of the inactivity.

    "There just aren't any new attacks being made" on Internet Explorer, he said

    1. What amazing arrogance
    2. What amazing encouragement

    Somebody get this guy off the stage.

  44. Re:Immediate full disclosure is best security prac by pjrc · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Prove it. Anything that can be found by a white/gray hat can be found or was already found by a black hat.

    Undoubtedly, you would look upon the history of the last few years, where virtually all attacks (manual and automated in virus/worm code) have exploited known bugs for which patches had been available for weeks or months, and say "that's not PROOF".

    And in a mathematical sense, that would indeed not be "proof".

    The best anyone can offer you is a "preponderance of the evidence", which might even be "beyond a reasonable doubt" that virtually all sucessful attacks have exploited known vulnerabilities for which the vendor had already created and published a patch.

    If you can accept this rather obvious observation, and you can believe that the trend will continue, then it is a very small logical step to conclude that it is overwhelmingly in everyone's best interest for vendors to have a reasonable opportunity to create and publish patches before details of new vulnerabilities are publically announced.

    But there is no proof, only a well established trend. So you, supposedly a system administrator, would rather see immediate public disclosure. I'm sure that will appeal to your emotional well being... not being kept in the dark. It will also mean, that as a system administrator, you will need to make temporary workarounds (which often times means shutting off the affected service), while you then wait, with a greatly increased probability of attack attempts. But it will appeal to you emotionally, making you feel better that the vendor got their "feet held to the fire". That ought to make up for the extra time you'll spend implementing the workaround and interfacing with all your users and managers and explaining to them why a service they depend upon (and consider your job to keep operational) is not available temporarily.

  45. Forced to use IE??? why do people think this way? by toddler99 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Whos forced to use IE. Last time i checked
    I can use whatever browser I want and when someone
    or some website tries to force me from using
    their product because i'm not using IE i can
    always work around it. So, why is it everyone
    always believes they are forced to use IE. Its
    a shitty browser simple solution stop using it.
    move on and be happy.

  46. disclosure by Tom · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The part about this story that gets to me is that the researcher didn't alert Microsoft before posting to a public mailing list.

    Guess you would've preferred that he either:

    a) keep it to himself and use it to root your box
    b) tell M$ about it, who will as usual drag it out for a few months before even acknowledging that he found a problem.

    If you were reading any of the security mailing lists, you'd know that the general experience researchers have with M$ is that it's a big waste of your unpaid time to contact them.

    Frankly, if they neither pay you nor treat you with some courtesy, then why exactly should you bother?

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  47. Its all about netrep by werdna · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The part about this story that gets to me is that the researcher didn't alert Microsoft before posting to a public mailing list.

    Truth. But here's the problem. Microsoft's reputation for responsiveness (that is, not!) and collegiality (that is, not!) in these situations is awful. Nor does Microsoft treat those who report such problems with any degree of warmth. Having established its Chinese wall as it has, Microsoft has lost its standing to whine about non-collegiality of the world it has created.

    This is the entire point about open systems, or at least openness about security -- it leverages what happens out there. Frankly, I feel more secure knowing what are the leaks, whether they are addressed or not, than I do knowing there are secret leaks out there for someone to exploit without my knowledge.

    If Microsoft had a reputation: (i) for assuring that a report of a leak would be responsibly handled and escalated promptly and without agonizing pain on the part of the reporter -- who is doing Microsoft a favor; and (ii) for responsibly, promptly and professionally addressing the problem, I would feel much more sympathetic.

    The problem is that they don't. Maybe they will change as they said they would. But until they do, I'd rather hear the news in time to know for what I have to watch out than to have it buried while others who have discovered the leak exploit it.

    Here's the thing, it is highly unlikely that any leak that is discovered by me was discovered only by me. Others, less responsible than I, will disover a leak, find the exploit, and either keep it in their "bag of tricks," trade it or what have you. In any case, if I find it, the exploit is likely out there in someone else's hands. I'd rather know the problem than wait for the solution.

    Yes, the kiddies are more likely to play if it is readily "out there." But guys, that happens anyway, one way or the other. Beside, Microsoft seems far more responsive to public leaks than private ones -- maybe this kind of report is more likely to assure that the bug will be repaired than otherwise.

    And you spend much less time on hold . . .

  48. Re:This has gone on long enough! by bj8rn · · Score: 3, Funny
    If you're an unhappy Microsoft user, the only bonds keeping you down are in your own mind.

    So you do admit that Windows users are not free in their choice?!

    --
    Hell is not other people; it is yourself. - Ludwig Wittgenstein
  49. Re:And, if not... by kirun · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you take all your services offline every time a vulnerability is disclosed, isn't that doing the cracker's job for them?

    --
    I'm scared of numbers that can't be written as a fraction. It's an irrational fear.
  50. Truly innovative thinking at Microsoft by YouHaveSnail · · Score: 5, Funny

    Programmer 1: "Hey, guys, we've really got to do something about the security problems we've been having with IE lately. Any ideas?"

    Programmer 2: "I've got an idea! My CS prof used to joke that you could solve any problem by adding one more layer of abstraction. In this case, it's true. Imagine how totally cool it would be if IE was just a regular application. Right now we've got it tangled up in the OS, but if you think about it, there's really no good reason for that. I mean, why does IE need special priviledges just to load files and render some HTML? If we pull it out of the OS, it'll still work fine, and it'll just naturally be subject to all the OS-level protection mechanisms we've got."

    Programmer 1: "What?! You're talking madness, man! Are you saying that we should subject one of our own applications to the same forces we use to prevent third parties from gaining too much market share? Egads, that's brilliant! I'll bet we can even patent that..."

    Programmer 3: "Guys, the idea certainly sounds cool, but it won't work. Bill said it's impossible. Don't you remember that Netscape trial thing? I know we're not supposed to ever talk about it, but he said it was impossible during his taped deposition. If Bill says it's impossible..."

    Programmer 2: "...then it must be impossible. You're right."

    Porgrammer 1: "Damn, you're right. Seemed like such a good idea."

  51. IE users are sheep and deserve whatever they get by kobotronic · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Really! There's been like a thousand holes in IE over the years, they keep coming with no slowing down or eevn trending towards end in sight.

    Those stupid enough to continue using that piece of garbage or any other microsoft software for "secure" applications, are getting it up the ass exactly like they asked for. The only people I see with desktops infested with bonzo and popups and spyware are retarded IE sheep anyway. The comments from the poster of the article just make me laugh. Security from obscurity isn't! The more exploits the better, the sooner people will be forced to switch.

    Go open source, go with glass box solutions.

    There's absolutely no reason to continue using IE, it's not as if you have to visit the few websites refusing service to other browsers. Refusal of service to other browsers only indicates incompetence - who'd make business with such a company anyway?

  52. Bug? by ZxCv · · Score: 2, Insightful

    .... then it's not a bug, it's a poor design failure...

    Which, to the end user, is the exact same thing.

    --

    Perl - $Just @when->$you ${thought} s/yn/tax/ &couldn\'t %get $worse;
  53. What gets to me by remmy1978 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The part about this story that gets to me is that the researcher didn't alert Microsoft before posting to a public mailing list.

    The part about this story that gets to me is that a single person finds 7 (!) holes/exploits by himself. Makes one wonder just how many things are left open simply because no one has looked at them yet. Scary.

  54. Apples to Apples; This is an Orange by Raindance · · Score: 2, Interesting

    While I agree with what most folks are saying about the security researcher not following proper exploit discovery etiquette, keep in mind (and this is not flamebait),

    He *is* from China, the country who is so frustrated by Microsoft that it's making its own, full-scale flavor of Linux. The country who may see most of the Western, MS-using world as a competitor. A country so big yet secretive that security practices may be subtly different over there.

    Disappointed? Sure, you can be disappointed in how this went down. Though it may be an apple judging an orange.

    Surprised? I don't think you have the right to be surprised.

    RD

  55. Microsoft doesn't either by Baki · · Score: 3, Informative

    In the company where I work (a large bank, 40000 work places) the latest IE security patch caused grave problems with (client certificate authenticated) SSL connections. Many internal applications broke down at random after about 10 minutes. This is costing massive amounts of time and money.

  56. Re:ROFL!!! by curious.corn · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'll agree to all your GUI counterclaims: X11 was quite deadish in the old days when Windows NT4 was "the" corporate platform and linux hummed in new 486 running the initial http:// rollout. So it was and still is a bunch of sedimented un-coordinated APIs... right... true... remember, it was on the verge of abandonware... The rest? Hmm, when that stuff got developed in the first place MS was what? 3.11? DOS? Didn't even exist? Now to NFS3? Come on, when the standard was written the US called cryptoAPIs "ammunition"... you couldn't put "mandatory" tags on ammunition! Even MS had to break, cripple, unsecure, bug their domain stuff to make it exportable (I'm not shure that's the only reason but...) So NFS security became optional and developers wouldn't build anything that was patent laden would they? Sendmail... that's like firing at the Red Cross... why don't you mention Postfix ;-) ?
    My point anyway is that the parent says MS has to regress the whole damn kaboodle for a couple of bugs so it's not their fault if it takes time. I challenge that: if they had done a half decent job there'd be no reason to check the whole OS for a couple of broken private methods in a web browser component class. that they should do that is a design failure... they might as well have written the whole thing in one big statically linked C executable.

    --
    Mi domando chi à il mandante di tutte le cazzate che faccio - Altan
  57. Why notify the company first? by Ridgelift · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The part about this story that gets to me is that the researcher didn't alert Microsoft before posting to a public mailing list.

    That was my initial reaction too, but then I asked myself why? Why must the manufacturer be notified first? All Linux expolits are announced publically aren't they? Or am I mistaken? If defects in Linux can be made public and fixed quickly, why can't commercial software be done the same way?

  58. To be fair by fudgefactor7 · · Score: 3, Insightful
    I think we need a uniformly accepted timeline for public announcement of exploits. I envision something like this:
    (1) Upon discovery a possible exploit should be verified by at least one other researcher;
    (2) The exploit, once verified, is reported to the appropriate vendor (in this case MS);
    (3) The vendor has 7 business days to reply to the original notice, indicating receipt of the vulnerability and the status of the vulnerability (if any). Failure to reply indicates that the vendor thinks the vulnerability isn't a problem and it is assumed ignored;
    (4) After the reply is generated the vendor is given 21 business days to produce an interim patch. If no reply is generated by the vendor the vulnerability may be publically published 3 days later.;
    (5) If no patch is available 21 days later after reply is generated the vulnerability may be publically published immediately.
    Now if only people used something like that instead of going for the throat and trying to be "leet" and cool--some of this is just ego-pumping: Hey man, look at me, I found a flaw in MS' stuff! I'm so kewl...
  59. forced? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    who is forced to use IE?. This is not a 'vertical application', there are free and non-free browsers that work much better than IE: they are much more secure and with options like tabbed browsing and pop-ups blocking.

    If people is concerned about security, they should change. If administrators are concerned about security, they should (at least) advice their users to change. I don't think we should blame that researcher for his discovery. I think users should be aware of this things.

  60. Bug was TWO YEARS old by menscher · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Assuming the article is referring to the Bugtraq post by Liu Die Yu of Nov 5, it's perhaps worth noting that he said, in his post:
    This attack is possible partly because of the bugs in Internet Explorer which remain unfixed. The oldest of these bugs is almost two years old.
    There was nothing to notify the vendor about. The vendor had already been informed.
  61. Running Down The Veulnerabilities by RzUpAnmsCwrds · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "Invalid ContentType may disclose cache directory"
    My Classification: Minor
    This isn't all that serious. The major threat is that a hacker could get your cache directory. The downloaded web page runs as part of the "internet" zone, meaning that there is no privelage elevation (IE has a zone system to give different pages different privelages).

    "LocalZoneInCache"
    Moderate/Severe
    This is more serious. It allows an attacker to modify files on the system or worse. Note that this *is not* the same as a root exploit, but it could be as damaging as running an executable. Note that the user *does* have to choose "open" in the download dialog, but they are not warned about the security risks and may not consider them as the file extention is ".htm".

    "MHTML Redirection Leads to Downloading EXE and Executing - Remote Compromise(requiring MYCOMPUTER zone)"
    Moderate
    This is somewhat less severe. It allows an attacker to download and execute an executable, but only if the user has already downloaded the page, saved it to disk, and executed it. The user might assume (incorrectly) that the file is safe.

    "MHTML Redirection leads to local file parsing in INTERNET zone"
    Severe (If an issue)
    I was not able to reproduce results with this veulnerability (IE6 SP1). Please comment if you can reproduce it. If it is indeed true, it would allow an attacker to parse the contents of a local file. They would need the absolute path. This could be used to discover potentially private information.

    "HijackClickV2 - Adding a Link to Favoriate List(requiring clicking a link)"
    Minor
    This would allow an attacker to add their site to favorites. The user would have to click a link and would have to release their mouse button over the favorites list (which is placed under their cursor after clicking the link).

    "execdror6"
    Severe (if issue)
    I was not able to reproduce results with this veulnerability (IE6 SP1). Please comment if you can reproduce it. If it is indeed true, it would allow an attacker to run an executable on the user's system. The user would have to click "open" on an HTML file download. Security warnings would not be displayed.

    "BackToFramedJpu - Cross-zone scripting(requiring a subframe in victim page)"
    Moderate
    This could allow an attacker to execute code in another security zone. It could potentially be used to execute code in the "my computer" zone if the attacker knows the location of a local page with frames.

    I'll comment on the rest later.

  62. Code reuse is code reuse by Grizzlysmit · · Score: 3, Insightful
    This is not the design methodology used in the *nix world.
    Code reuse is code reuse, whether it is Windows, Unix, or any other OS/app. Modern programmers are taught to do code reuse, and saing "This is not the design methodology used in the *nix world" is plain stupid.

    Hmmm who modded this troll up as Interesting, ok I'll pretend this is not a troll, and answer, what M$ has done with bimbo's and IE is not just code reuse, they have not just used some of the same libraries again, they have tightly coupled, them together, so that they cannot easily be separated, parts of windows code was put into the IE libraries, were it doesn't belong in order to legitamise their claim that the two are so called integrated, butchered would be a better term, this is why all of a sudden installing IE even without the "IE desktop", changed your system libraries. In addition inorder to further the same goals or out of shear incompetence, M$ have hooked the two together, via global variables and functions to the point where the one cannot exist with out the other. This is not code reuse this is bad design, and infact the oppersite of structured programming, which is the basis of real code reuse.

    When gzip security hole was discovered, it hit hundreds of Unix applications, because they reused the code from this library. Is the "design methodology" any different?

    The gzip bug demonstrated that it sometimes can even be worse on *nix, due to source code coping instead of shared libs, so that the bug had to be fixed in multiple places.

    You really don't know the first thing about coding do you, when you use a library you do not cut and paste the code into your own, you use their functions and stuff, so all that had to happen with gzip was they fixed the library, then if another project was staticly linked to the library it would have had to be relinked to the new library, but as the majority of code is dynamically these days, most programs would only need you to update the dynamic library on your system, and whala, all programs using the library are fixed next time you run them.

    just a hint: don't lambaste an other person for ignorance in an area you don't have a clue about, some of us make our living programming seeing you make unkind comments to someone else just for being right pisses us off.
    --
    in my life God comes first.... but Linux is pretty high after that :-D
    Francis Smit
    1. Re:Code reuse is code reuse by mentin · · Score: 4, Insightful
      You really don't know the first thing about coding do you, when you use a library you do not cut and paste the code into your own, you use their functions and stuff

      And you don't know anything about gzip vulnerability and instead generalize your ideas of how it should be to how it is actually done.

      Lots of applications were using customized version of gzip, e.g. Linux kernel used a trimmed down version of gzip. They could not be simply recompiled with new library - the bug had to be fixed in every copy of the source code - yet, it was code reuse via copy/paste as much as it could possibly be. Too little applications used shared library, so even those application that used standard gzip had to be rebuild with new static library.

      And if *nix world moves to using shared libraries more, it will face the same problem Microsoft has - a single security fix in a single shared library can potentially break any of hundred applications that use this library, and all these applications has to be tested with patched version. Which is still better than patching hundred applications independently.

      --
      MSDOS: 20+ years without remote hole in the default install