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What's Wrong with the Open Source Community?

An anonymous reader writes "We Have Met The Enemy and He Is Us says a Pogo-quoting James Turner, in trying to pinpoint "What's Wrong with the Open Source Community?" for LinuxWorld this morning. But he doesn't *just* say that it's we developers ourselves, he also has five hard-to-deny reasons, including 'Open source developers often scratch the same itch' and 'Open Source developers love a good feud.' He also suggests we often approach the whole issue of encouraging migration to Linux from Windows entirely wrongly." There's also a decent rebuttal with this story as well - worth reading.

135 of 751 comments (clear)

  1. just a guess.... by carpe_noctem · · Score: 4, Funny

    showering, maybe?

    --
    "Quoting famous computer scientists out of context is the root of all evil (or at least most of it) in programming." - K
    1. Re:just a guess.... by frodo+from+middle+ea · · Score: 2, Funny

      or the lack of , maybe ?

      --
      for the last time people, I am "frodo from middle eaRTH", not "middle eaST".
  2. What's Wrong with the Open Source Community? by Pingular · · Score: 5, Funny

    They're not being paid.

    --

    When anger rises, think of the consequences.
    Confucius (551 BC - 479 BC)
    1. Re:What's Wrong with the Open Source Community? by Malcontent · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And yet it was insightful at the same time. The fact that they are not paid does have a profound effect on how software is developed.

      --

      War is necrophilia.

    2. Re:What's Wrong with the Open Source Community? by bigberk · · Score: 2, Interesting
      They're not being paid.
      I'm a part time software developer (and full time University student) and I can tell you that I have made much more money associated with my free/open source software than I have with my generic Windows shareware. Most of the money has resulted from custom modifications for organizations that started by using the free software. I am also developing several new projects, for which I plan on fundraising through sales of the open source software (yes, you can sell free software) as well as sales of manuals, etc.
    3. Re:What's Wrong with the Open Source Community? by griffjon · · Score: 4, Funny

      s/p/l/

      --
      Returned Peace Corps IT Volunteer
    4. Re:What's Wrong with the Open Source Community? by Dr.+Photo · · Score: 4, Funny

      s/p/l/

      I'm sure your studly regexp skills are a hit with the ladies. You have no idea how embarrassing it is to accidentally grep for the wrong pattern on a first date...

  3. Much to learn. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting


    There is nothing inherently wrong with the Open Source movement.

    Think back to when Chiang Kai-Shek took over China: before that no one worked, everyone was poor, morale was nonexistent. Under the benevolent dictator, a term used to describe Linus Torvalds, Kai-Shek ensured that everyone worked, and everyone had a purpose.

    Within a few short years China was a world power.

    With an identical structure, the Open Source leaders ensure a good pool of talent. Millions of identical workers producing code. There's no way the current method of the Cigar-smoking boss standing on the backs of the coders can continue. Chiang Kai-Shek died in 1975 but his methods and teachings continue to this day in China.

    Open Source could learn a lot from him.


    c39052b261506f846895cac6e0724290

    1. Re:Much to learn. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Ecept, of course, that he spent the majority of his time in power in China (not Taiwan, where he was driven to in 1950) fighting a civil war against the Communist forces. (A war he inititiated, it should be pointed out.)

      Wait, that is just like the Open Source community, constantly feuding with each other.

    2. Re:Much to learn. by Ubergrendle · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Wasn't he overthrown after about 20 years by Chairman Mao? Bad analogy for Open Source if you're optimistic for a future for the movement...

      --
      John Maynard Keynes: "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do?"
    3. Re:Much to learn. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful


      Sorry to disappoint you but you're in error.

      After the "dot com bust" millions of programmers were out of work. The promises of gold and influence were revealed for the lies that they were. Today, those same programmers work on a system for the people not for their corporate masters. The workers are uniting under the Open Source flag. There is no way that capitalist software ventures can fight this trend. Just as Hong Kong has been returned to the people, so shall the code be returned.

      d24edcbb257b163728ac36726446d746

    4. Re:Much to learn. by Greger47 · · Score: 4, Informative

      What's often forgotten is that the Kuomintang party (of which Chiang Kai-Shek was leader 1925-1975) was actually founded on democratic principles and the party was elected to power in China.

      Elections were also held while Kuomintang was in power on the mainland.

      It wasn't untill civil war started and they got chucked out by the communists that things degraded to a good old 1 party dictatorship on Taiwan.

      (I'm ofcourse painting things a bit rosy but the democracy in China was above average measured by the political standards of 1910-1920.)

    5. Re:Much to learn. by PincheGab · · Score: 2, Insightful
      There is nothing inherently wrong with the Open Source movement

      There's nothing wrong with socialism and communism either, as long as you speak "in theory." While you can find something wrong with anything if you look with a critical eye, I don't think OSS is at all close to perfect or optimal:

      RMS pounces on anyone who does not both kiss his ass (his demand is that his contribution be acknowledged, see the GNU/Linux vs Linux/GNU vs Linux arguments) *and* sponsor his own personal choice method for open source (ie, use the license he prefers).

      For some of the other stuff look at the article we are discussing.

      Under the benevolent dictator, a term used to describe Linus Torvalds, Kai-Shek...

      There are several serious intellectial oversights here:

      1. Benevolent dictator? Have you asked any of the people that have dared to disagree with China's leadership? Puhleeze!
      2. Kai-Shek had control of the whole country. Linus has control over the kernel only. Don't think this matters? Look at all the superior kernels that no one uses because there are no apps for them. Although Linus might indeed be powerful and benevolent, his domain is by no means the whole computing spectrum, and his power to do us all good is severely, severely limited. Think of how successful Kai-Shek would have been if he had not had absolute control of a single facet of government, such as agriculture, economy, imports/exports, energy, health care, education, law enforcement, etc... Kai-Shek and Linus are *not* in the same situation at all.

      Within a few short years China was a world power

      Again, a nice romatic comment, but you must acknowledge that China has to get away from its communist foundations and embrace capitalism just to stay alive. You also must acknowledge that China's greatness was accomplished with considerable suppression of its populace and numerous and outrageous human rights violations. I do not think you meant to say it would be a good thing if open source did the same things, did you?

      Millions of identical workers producing code

      But part of the problem is that lots of talent is wasted on unfinished, underdocumented, and redundant projects.

      Whatever.... suffice it to say that I don't see the parallel between communist China and the open source communities, nor do I see what open source can learn from a dictator who killed, tortured, and "disappeared" anyone whio disagreed with him, thereby only leaving alive people whyo would call him a "benevolent dictator." The term "dictator" alone implies dissent is silenced.

    6. Re:Much to learn. by Saganaga · · Score: 2, Informative

      You are confused. Kai-Shek was not a communist; he lost in a civil war TO the communists, led by Mao.

    7. Re:Much to learn. by cmacb · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "There's nothing wrong with socialism and communism either, as long as you speak "in theory." While you can find something wrong with anything if you look with a critical eye, I don't think OSS is at all close to perfect or optimal:

      RMS pounces on anyone who does not both kiss his ass (his demand is that his contribution be acknowledged, see the GNU/Linux vs Linux/GNU vs Linux arguments) *and* sponsor his own personal choice method for open source (ie, use the license he prefers)."


      I think the rebuttal article did a fairly good job of countering the 5 issues, but an argument already having been made has never stopped me before...

      I get particularly tired of people's need to compare open source with some sort of political movement, ANY of them. RMS may have socialist views personally, but there are many capitalists in the open source movement as well. There are also large numbers of Democrats, Republicans and Libertarians, meat eaters, vegetarians, doctors and Christian Scientists.

      Open source probably would not exist in a tightly control economy. The government would eventually choose an "official" operating system and demand that everyone use it or have their computers confiscated.

      And finally I like to remind people that open source existed before it had a name. Computers used in universities and research environments for as long as there has been computing were largely programmed and tinkered with by people at those institutions. Even IBM computers where I went to school had modified operating systems. Source code was readily available from IBM and there were publications used for exchanging those modifications as well as the likelihood that some of them would show up in future versions of the OS. Until Microsoft came along in fact operating systems were secondary to the hardware that they supported. While IBM wasn't thrilled if you ran a non-IBM OS on their equipment they would much rather have that happen than to have you run non-IBM hardware.

      Given all of that, it is really not the Open Source movement that is odd, it is in fact Microsoft that is worthy of study for it produces almost no physical products and has continued to charge premium prices for software that has long ago left the R&D stage. I don't think that historians will marvel at the emergence of Open Source in our time, I think they will marvel that a single company was able to so effectively suppress that which comes fairly naturally to people: the desire to explore and understand for such a long period of time. I think that period is nearing its end however. For those who grew up in the "Microsoft age" its ending must surely seem odd.

  4. Using the words 'entirely wrongly' together by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    is entirely wrong.

  5. Pointless contrarianism by Ars-Fartsica · · Score: 4, Insightful
    What this author is really doing is digging up some nitpicks and embellishing them as signs of the end.

    How do you know that the same feuds and itch scratching don't happen at Sun or Microsoft? They certainly do, but you don't know this because your only interface to the firm is a PR rep. I like the transparency of the open source community. I want to see the debates and bickering take place in public, where maybe just maybe I can provide some input.

    1. Re:Pointless contrarianism by YU+Nicks+NE+Way · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why do you care if Sun or Microsoft have turf battles? Does it make open source any stronger that we have political battles at MS? What he's saying is that your political battles get in the way of your productivity (and they do), and that their visiblity hurts you (and it does). Whether that's more true of open source or closed source does not matter.

      When he talks about each of the complaints he's got, he's not talking about competing with Microsoft, or Sun, or SGI -- he's talking about problems with the community itself. You're the one who turned his observation into a negative comment about FOSS compared to closed source. He's talking about things to fix, and you want to turn it into things to compete about. Look at his point 5, and tell me that doesn't apply to your reaction.

    2. Re:Pointless contrarianism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      > How do you know that the same feuds and itch scratching
      > don't happen at Sun or Microsoft?

      Have you compared the number of products for specific tasks?

      Microsoft: Internet Explorer
      Open Source: Mozilla, Galeon, Konqueror, ...

      Microsoft: Media Player
      Open Source: Mplayer, XMMS, Xine, ...

      Microsoft: Word (and to a lesser extent, Works Writer)
      Open Source: OpenOffice Writer, AbiWord, KOffice, ...

      I'd have to say the "itch" argument is pretty accurate.

    3. Re:Pointless contrarianism by wo1verin3 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm at a medium sized software company now, and if the customers knew of the arguments and disagrements between execs, marketing, engineering, support, etc they'd be amused. Seldomly do any of them have the same ideas or agree on the same thing.

    4. Re:Pointless contrarianism by Ars-Fartsica · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Microsoft: Internet Explorer Open Source: Mozilla, Galeon, Konqueror, ...

      Uh, because "open source" is not a company, it is a community, in the same sense that Windows developers are a community (for which multiple browsers also exist...Opera etc).

      Microsoft: Media Player Open Source: Mplayer, XMMS, Xine, ...

      But increasingly the GNOME world at least is using Gstreamer as a backend. If someone wants to code up yet-another GUI for Gstreamer, go nuts.

    5. Re:Pointless contrarianism by Trigun · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Microsoft: Media Player, Real Player, Apple Quicktime, ...

      Open Source: Mplayer, XMMS, Xine, ...

      Microsoft: Internet Explorer, Netscape, Opera, ...
      Open Source: Mozilla, Galeon, Konqueror, ...

      Microsoft: Word (and to a lesser extent, Works Writer), OpenOffice, WordPerfect, ...
      Open Source: OpenOffice Writer, AbiWord, KOffice, ...

      There's shitloads of products for both platforms. Unless you want to talk companies, then even in the linux world, it's a one to one relation, one to two for some some projects if you want to count Open Source and Proprietary offerings.

    6. Re:Pointless contrarianism by IWorkForMorons · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I like the transparency of the open source community.

      I'm sure you do, as well as many other people. But I think this is a minor group compared to the amount of people that just want someone to tell them App-X or Software-Y can solve their problems. I think OSS sorely misses that...a PR Rep to tell everyone "Yes, this will solve your problems. Look at this pretty presentation!" It may not be the most moral way of attracting customers, but it does work. Never underestimate the value that flash and pizzazz has on a desparate customer...

    7. Re:Pointless contrarianism by Per+Abrahamsen · · Score: 3, Insightful

      > I can't figure out what your point is here at all

      I believe the point is that the original article wasn't "why the open source community is worse than closed source communitis" but "places where the open source community could do better than it does now".

    8. Re:Pointless contrarianism by AvantLegion · · Score: 2, Insightful
      They may have the same itch, and a few separate attempts at scratching it might be attempted, but in the end, Windows doesn't come with 15 different GUIs.

      Some level of quality control (I know, MS, quality control, har har), is exercised, and the weaker attempts get canned and their developers end up working on the stronger ones.

      In open source, the weaker attempts languish on, while the stronger attempts could sure use the extra effort to make them better.

    9. Re:Pointless contrarianism by Ars-Fartsica · · Score: 2, Insightful
      -- I like the transparency of the open source community.

      Not when it comes to pettyness. Just makes you look bad.

      Why hide the warts? Who are you trying to impress? There are real people and real personalities involved in the community. Jerks who do not provide useful input will be purged. No long term harm seems to have been inflicted due to free speech.

    10. Re:Pointless contrarianism by lafiel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      He's trying to say that the comment wasn't comparing closed-source to open-source and determining which is better. Just merely that turf battles in the OSS-community is bad.

      Basically, put all the brains together and come up with something better. Don't have the brains of OSS-community battle it out individually.

      The grandparent (and first reply to your original post) seems to take offense that you've turned this argument away from its intention to improve OSS-community, and viewed it as a "this is why closed-source is better" argument.

      PS. I don't agree (or disagree for that matter) with this statement, but I point it out so you can understand the arguement. The obvious counterargument here is "Competetion creates a far better end product". I don't care which is correct, just that they're both good points and debating which case is probably purely opinion and can't be solidifed absolutely with facts.

    11. Re:Pointless contrarianism by Richard_at_work · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There's shitloads of products for both platforms. Unless you want to talk companies, then even in the linux world, it's a one to one relation, one to two for some some projects if you want to count Open Source and Proprietary offerings.

      Yes, but I think the point was that although there may be MULTIPLE products in the closed source arena, they are all by DIFFERENT companies and compete. OpenSource is supposed to be a place where this shouldnt happen, everyone should work together to make one single product better. In essance, if OpenSource really really worked, there would only be one Browser that really kicked ass rather than 6 or seven that all basically do the same and yet somehow feel unfinished. Unfortunately, it only "works" right atm, and this is why we end up with 500 versions of the same old crap.

    12. Re:Pointless contrarianism by blahlemon · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The AC who posted before me is a bit of a jackass him/her self considering Open Source isn't a company like Microsoft but rather a coding philosopy, but I digress.

      I don't see why people see abundance of choice as a bad thing. The problem with the computer industry isn't too much choice. The problem is a lack of enforced standards. If the encoding of all documents was equal then the various products could battle it out on a level play field.

      Look at the automotive industry, can you imagine if all the cars ran on gasoline but Chevy's needed one brand of gas and Ford needed another brand of gas and so on? You would have to carefully plan your trips to make sure the right gas stations were at the right locations so you could get you specific brand of gas. This would lead to a lack of competition among gas companies (what competition there is now) and more outrageous prices without any method of check to see if the cost is justified.

      Kinda like software companies are now. Lets face it, if Microsoft knows it's probably going to sell X number of copied of Office, plus OEM packages and so on, why do they need to charge in excess of $400 for the professional version? You really think it's worth that much money.

      --
      It take more faith to believe in evolution than it takes to believe in God
    13. Re:Pointless contrarianism by Karn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So which one is truly the best text editor for unix:

      vim or Emacs?

      I happen to like vim, are you going to tell me that my preference is wrong? How can a preference be wrong?

      My point is that as long as people have preferences, multiple solutions will exist for a particular problem, and this is not a bad thing.

      --


      Why do I keep typing pythong?
    14. Re:Pointless contrarianism by chmod+u+s · · Score: 4, Insightful
      What he's saying is that your political battles get in the way of your productivity (and they do), and that their visiblity hurts you (and it does).

      Admittedly I digress from your whistle-blowing about point 5, however, who is to say that these feuds don't *help* the community? If the developers didn't care enough to put their ego/self worth/zealotry on the line then we could very well end up with poorly written or mediocre solutions that nobody cared enough to fight about. You cannot (with a straight face) tell me that the bitter rivalries over vi and emacs, kde and gnome, linux and *bsd have not filled the pipes of many an oss hacker.

      Speaking as a developer, I know I perform my best, cross all i's and dot all t's when it is my opinion, reputation, and/or self worth that is at stake. What he touts as a failure should be lauded as the competetive incentive that it is. If this is in the counterpoint, you will have to forgive me - the counterpoint was slashdotted by the time I got to it.

    15. Re:Pointless contrarianism by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Just because there's a good explanation, doesn't mean it isn't a problem.

    16. Re:Pointless contrarianism by surprise_audit · · Score: 2, Interesting
      however, who is to say that these feuds don't *help* the community?

      Yep, you're right. At least for the early stages of any project. There should be several competing products, and as they mature, the size of the user base will determine which product deserves to survive. Note that I'm not saying that the "better" product should survive, merely that the one people want to use should survive. One or more of the failures could be technically better, but less user-friendly, for example. Forks should happen for the same reason - somebody has a different idea about the way the product should mature. Over time, the lesser used forks would naturally expire, or be merged back into the major branch.

      So, some dissent is good, provided it makes the products stronger.

  6. The worst thing about the open source community by dereklam · · Score: 5, Funny

    We slashdot each other's sites!

    1. Re:The worst thing about the open source community by Drakin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually dureing the period of time just after the 9/11 attacks, slashdot was in fact slashdotted, groaning under the weight of everyone scrambling for information.

      I beleive the team learned a lot from that and even after the Columbia accident, slashdot endured better (although,I think there was less hits as well)

  7. Name-calling doesn't help by shystershep · · Score: 5, Insightful
    the biggest problem that the Open Source community faces in taking Open Source to the next level is . . . the immaturity and insecurity of some of the members of the community.

    I obviously cannot vouch for the maturity and security level of everyone in the Open Source community, but I disagree with this conclusion. The partisanship and the sometimes irrational emotional responses are a problem (maybe the problem) with Open Source, but are not the result of "immaturity" or "insecurity." They are a natural human reaction to perceived attacks on X, where X is something into which a great deal of time/work/hope has been invested.

    I agree that the community could advance more rapidly without all of the competing distributions, standards, etc., but that very same diversity is what gives Open Source its strength. The redundancy may slow things in some ways, but it helps guarantee that -- when the standards are winnowed down -- the strongest and best survive. Calling the members of the community "immature" and "insecure" is mere name-calling that is more likely to induce the exact emotional responses the author laments rather than the needed calm, rational debate on this important issue.

    --
    The bigotry of the nonbeliever is for me nearly as funny as the bigotry of the believer. - Albert Einstein
    1. Re:Name-calling doesn't help by Frymaster · · Score: 5, Insightful
      the biggest problem that the Open Source community faces in taking Open Source to the next level is . . . the immaturity and insecurity of some of the members of the community.

      ballmer screams "developers! developers!" like a cocaine-feulled monkey. steve jobs is well known for his temper tantrums and "reality distortion field". darl and the sco crew are running around like paranoid schizophrenics with delusions of grandeur (or even just plain adequacy)...

      and the open source people are "immature and insecure"?

    2. Re:Name-calling doesn't help by no+reason+to+be+here · · Score: 5, Funny

      They are a natural human reaction to perceived attacks on X, where X is something into which a great deal of time/work/hope has been invested.

      It's not just X, either, but also emacs, KDE, Gnome...

    3. Re:Name-calling doesn't help by Animats · · Score: 2, Insightful
      the immaturity and insecurity of some of the members of the community.

      There are CEOs like that.

      Among the failed dot-coms, there are quite a number of CEOs like that.

    4. Re:Name-calling doesn't help by Per+Abrahamsen · · Score: 3, Funny

      It is quite possible for the open source community to be quite immature, yet still more mature than Ballmer, Jobs or Darl.

    5. Re:Name-calling doesn't help by mr_mischief · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Watcom, Borland, Microsoft, Symantec, Intel, and many other vendors rolled out C compilers with fee-based licenses and minor to major incompatibilities in some of the features not too terribly long ago (late 80s, so yes, I guess it was a long time ago in computer years).

      Then along came the standardization process, and they became much more alike, using mostly the best features / behaviors from each. ANSI C / ISO C made inroads specifically because there had been competing products to prove the worth of the features. Otherwise, C would still be K&R C.

      GCC came along and was able to become so successful because the standard had been worked out. UnitedLinux, Carrier Grade Linux, and other working groups / associations are building on the work of differing entities and incorporating the solutions which have been shown to work the best. There's little difference in how this is done, except that since the source is available among the entire group, the solutions can be integrated more easily with one another.

      Duplication of effort is not always a bad idea. Cooperation has its place. So does competition, even within the Free Software and Open Source worlds. If we didn't scrat5ch the same itch once in a while and only had one solution for every problem, then we'd never know if there's a better way to do things. One of the reasons that OSS / FS is so successful is that multiple paths are taken, things get reevaluated, and the course is corrected. Sometimes this means that projects converge and use the best from each part, and sometimes it means that yet another project starts in the same area.

      Linux isn't the only Free Software OS, and there are plenty of Open Source OSes on top of those. Off the top of my head, there are at least somewhat working prototypes up to completely working OSes for GNU/Linux, MINIX, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD, PicoBSD, PaulOS, Plan 9, ReactOS, OpenVMS, FreeVMS, FreeDOS, Darwin (BSD kernel), GNU/Horde, VisOpSys, MMURTL, B-Free, V2, eCOS, UZIX, and Contiki. A few of these might not have OSI approved licenses, but I'm certain that almost all do.

      I'm sure there are others that do which I can't list from memory. Do all these being around negatively affect one another? Since many ideas and much code is shared back and forth among many of these projects, do they help one another? Heck, having three different free BSD systems seems to have helped BSD as a whole in some ways and hurt it in others.

      Those with a philosophical difference with one maintaining group starting a new distribution is not necessarily a bad thing. There's proof enough that FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and NetBSD are all three necessary in that each of the three have proponents who evangelize the benefits over the other two. The similar debates of BSD vs. Linux or of Suse vs. RedHat are no better or worse.

      How many here remember Yggdrasil or Soft Landing System? They were Linux distros before RedHat or Suse. They're gone because they were no longer relevant. As long as people have a preference for Debian, RedHat, Suse, Gentoo, Slackware, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, etc., then all of these projects will exist. When there are no users who prefer RedHat, RedHat will be gone. When there are no users who prefer NetBSD, it will be gone. I don't see either of these coming to pass anytime soon, if at all. The BSD license and the GPL at least make sure they don't just disappear if they are no longer developed. The source will be picked over for possible inclusion of tasty pieces in other projects long after individual distros die.

      The same will be true of mail clients, mail servers, web servers, web browsers, desktop environments, text formatters, and every other project. The same principals work no matter the market, and no matter the nature of the licenses. Even car manufacturers borrow ideas from one another. The Open Source world makes this process easier (and in some cases more legal).

      Sure, there are downsides to duplicated effort. There are upsides, too. If a problem is important enough that twenty groups attack it differently, then it's important enough that all those avenues are tried and the weaker ones be sifted out.

    6. Re:Name-calling doesn't help by CharlieG · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, the first time I saw "developers, developers....") was at Tech-Ed in LA about 8 years back - I have no transcript of the conference - If I did, I'd send you a link

      Some background. Tech-Ed is a conference (mostly) for developers using Microsoft products. Balmer was doing the keynote. If you've ever been to one of these things, keynotes are always HYPE, and are usually only worth seeing because they tell you what the conference sponsor is pushing that year. At that point, there was some internal friction going on in the Micorsoft developer world. Some of the language products and features were being driven by the "Office" community - aka, VB becoming more like VBScript. There was quite a bit of unhappiness. This was Microsoft's way of saying that Developers would be driving the development platform again, not the "Office" team. He was saying that he kept having to beat one idea into the Microsoft Development team "Developers, Developers, Developers....." (aka, who the customer was)

      It was an interesting Tech-Ed - about 1/3rd of the people there got food posioning on either the first or 2nd day - something at lunch did it.

      WAY back when, Microsoft treated developers like Gods. They realized the way to drive the acceptance of their PLATFORM (aka Windows, and therefore Office, and....) was to enable developers to write applications easily for that platform - it's the old "Killer App" problem that a lot of platforms faced. No one will develop for platform "X" because no one uses platform "X". No one uses platform "X" because no one develops for it. Microsoft practically GAVE away their development "stuff" - yeah, the list prices might be high, but they made it easy to get discount/free copies. This let people develop for windows (particularly in the F500), so the F500 adopted Windows. The thing is, once the F500 adopted windows, the Office team came up with "VB everywhere", and then VB Script - Nice idea, but they actually crippled VB (and other parts of the platform - parts of the DDE/OLE model if I remember right) to make it "easy for folks writing macros"

      This was the announcement that they were moving back to a developer centric model. They never moved all the way back, but they have moved some. Of course, the small developer that doesn't have a multi thousand dollar budget is SOL - I think THIS is what will kill Microsoft in the long run - forgetting about the "One man shop" - all those small consultants who can now do a better, more cost effective job providing a *nix solution. Remember, the average end user doesn't care what platform he is on. He just wants to get his job done. If I can give my end users a solution on *nix cheaper and more effectively, I'll do so, and the client will thank me. Then he'll use the "shink wrap" (or in the *nix world - downloadable) mass solutions for the rest - Star Office, or whatever

      I really believe, what drove the adoption of Windows (way back when) was the follow factors

      1)DOS compatability - you could move over slowly
      2)Multitasking (even if NON preemptive)
      3)Terminal Emulators!!! The fact that companies could actually get rid of a terminal on a workers desk, and use a PC that cost about the same price
      4)And then the ability for developers to write custom software that could take data from that "terminal", and do business work.

      Item 4) was at first done by "screen scraping" - you litterally read the data fields off the mainframe screen, and wrote it back to the mainframe screen behind the scenes! This is why ODBC was such a BIG thing when it came out - we could actually talk to existing data without screen scraping

      This is why I held such high hopes for Delphi, - but I forgot one VERY important thing - those terminals. Remember, putting a PC on the end users desk actually saved money. You didn't have to buy a terminal for that user, and terminals cost about as much as a PC! Once the PC was there, companies started SMALL projects writing SMALL projects doing windows development. N

      --
      -- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
  8. blah blah by XO · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Well, one of the things that is definitely wrong, is that if you go into an IRC channel for any non main-stream OS (os/2, linux, mac, etc) and ask a question, you're going to get beaten up by assholes.

    case in point, i just logged into the #debian channel on freenode, and asked why the package servers hadn't updated in several days.. at least 15 people got really nasty, ranging from "read the fucking channel topic" to some very nasty insults. Strangely enough, the channel topic had absolutely nothing to talk about the package servers, and the link in the topic was broken.

    --
    "Champagne for my real friends - and real pain for my sham friends!" http://ericblade.postalboard.com/
    1. Re:blah blah by JofCoRe · · Score: 4, Informative

      is that if you go into an IRC channel for any non main-stream OS (os/2, linux, mac, etc) and ask a question, you're going to get beaten up by assholes

      Uhhh.... I think that's just IRC, dude. :)

      --

      Place sig here.
    2. Re:blah blah by damiam · · Score: 3, Informative
      The current topic on #debian begins with

      Compromised machine info: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2003 /debian-devel-announce-200311/msg00012.html || Down: gluck (people, packages.d.o); || more info at http://www.wiggy.net/debian/

      While lists.debian.org is down, a little bit of digging would have given you the Google cache. Also, it says right there that packages.debian.org is down. How much clearer can it get? I agree, it'd be better if someone had explained the situation instead of flaming, but the information was right there.

      --
      It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
    3. Re:blah blah by ZeroZen · · Score: 2, Informative

      Clearly you went into #linux and asked a question! That's your first problem. You're in the wrong channel completely!

      #LinuxHelp is clearly for people who need help using linux. And just because you need help doesn't mean anyone HAS to give you an answer.

      I used to hang out there alot, and even then you run into problems. People who don't get an answer right away or don't get a complete one get very upset. Sometimes someone tries to help you but they don't know how and they get shafted by the person who's upset.

      Upset in #Linuxhelp? Lurk for 30mins and ask again. But don't sit at your machine and get steamed up, get up and make a sandwich, smoke a doobie, whatever, because windows has probably made you quite used to having it work right away. Any arguing you do will build a huge wall and people will go out of their way to tell you to go away.

      RTFM. First. Always. The people who regular a help channel will remember you if you ask alot of questions, and if they're good questions they're likely to help you again.

      If you're reeeeally new at linux, and need someone on the phone with you all the time i suggest you talk to redhat or one of those companies that make their money off tech support. You WILL get an answer and not an answer you will have to work on to complete.

      Even better, because i know that reponse can be inflaming, get an offline book so you can follow it step by step. Anything that starts out telling you how to install your OS in GREAT DETAIL is good, because not only does going thought every step of the slackware installation teach you alot of things you might not known about computers before (partition? MBR? WTF?!) you will pick up on and things will be easier on you not just for linux, but for everything else you do with computers.

      So it is true, you get what you pay for. You can also get stuff for free, but don't expect service with a smile if you don't smile back!!! And arguing doesn't only hurt you (people won't talk to you) but you won't be able to participate with the other kids who play nice. Open source counts on you!

  9. Don't bother with this article. by IGnatius+T+Foobar · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Before clicking through, you should know about a little bit of background information.

    Check this Linux Today article. James Turner wrote an article about how Linux is DOA on the desktop because it was missing two drivers he needed for his laptop. He was scathing and he basically baited the readers into giving him the takedown he deserved (and possibly was expecting, if as is suspected he was just trolling for clicks).

    In response, he announced that he was going to use this as justification for another clickbait article about how immature the Linux community is. The article in question is the new one which this Slashdot story is about.

    So don't expect any substance here. This is as much about taunting Linux users for clicks as any piece by Rob Enderle or Jesse Berst -- it's merely that this time, we have someone who writes for a supposedly pro-Linux publication stooping to this level.

    --
    Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
    1. Re:Don't bother with this article. by Hayzeus · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Basically, this is a distortion of the original article. I'd encourage people to read the whole thing here.

      I may not entirely agree with a few assertions in the article, but arguing that the difficulty involved in getting an off the shelf laptop to fully support linux (dvd player and all) harms widespread consumer accceptance of the OS is not an unreasonable assertion.

    2. Re:Don't bother with this article. by jdkincad · · Score: 4, Funny
      from the article IGnatius linked:
      The front DVD-wise was even worse. The distribution I was playing with, like most, took the safe route and supplied a version of the Xine DVD player that doesn't include the DMCA-violating dvdcss libraries. This means that all it's good for is playing unencrypted DVDs, like the Bar Mitzvah video your uncle Charlie gave you, but definitely not "Charlie's Angels II."

      Sign of a Troll #1,203: Critizing people for obeying the law.
      --
      The great advantage of having a reputation for being stupid: People are less suspicious of you.
  10. value freedom by ciaran_o_riordan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If we view Free Software only as a convenience, we won't progress. Sometimes it takes a lot of effort to develop a Free Software package, or to migrate a system to use Free Software. It makes no sense to put a lot of effort into seeking a convenience.

    Idealism is a more long term motivator, and it's not unjustified when the focus of the idealism has already proved to be very practical.

    This is party highlighted by the OpenSource Vs. Free Software terminology, but we are not enemies, it's just a choice of where you put the emphasis.

  11. Too negative... by Fnkmaster · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Most of these problems are economic outgrowths of the fact that most Open Source developers write code for kudos, not bucks. The only way to change this would be to change the incentive system, roll in more capitalism to the process, or come up with ways other than dollars to align large numbers of developers interests in the same direction. Frankly, I'm doubtful about the prospect - the beautiful thing about Open Source is that there will always be more projects as there are more itches to scratch and people will always fight and bicker about which is best. I think the general public will become more aware of this over time and more understanding that this process generally creates good, useful software, and I think the community of Open Source developers has become and will continue to become more aware that adoption of their products depends on being considerate of UI design and usability issues from the outset, not just throwing them on as afterthoughts. More and more Open Source projects seem to be producing fairly usable software these days, not just software that works well if you can navigate a million command-line options like we saw a lot a couple of years back.


    As for the big complaint about the Microsoft shoulder-chip, I agree. Anti-Windows fanaticism is just unpleasant to hear. The point the author makes is valid - many users don't have any love for Windows either, but don't have the level of dedication to hating Microsoft that they are willing to spend hours, weeks or months futzing with their hardware and peripherals getting them to work in Linux, or learning new applications. Developers should redouble their efforts and their committment to making ease-of-use, hardware compatibility, short learning curves, and usable GUIs key elements of major Open Source projects.

    1. Re:Too negative... by Issue9mm · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I just wanted to respond and say that yes, you're right. There are more and more user-friendly AND feature-rich Linux applications coming out now that are also GOOD. Who knew?

      I just switched to Suse, from RedHat, mostly because I heard of how good the device support was, and how I'm tired of acting as a support tech for my wife when she's forgotten how to mount the camera. Not only was I impressed by the installation (I had to install XP for one of her school projects, and it went right alongside it without a hitch), but the finished product as well.

      Aside from all the nice things that I wasn't used to, coming from RedHat (auto-mounting camera and placing icon on the desktop, auto-mounting the Windows NTFS drive, etc.), K3b is easily the most elegant CD/DVD burning package I've ever used in Linux. Kopete is easily the smoothest chat client I've ever used in Linux, and in my opinion, blows gAIM to bits.

      These applications, as I see them, are not only the best available for Linux, but better than their Windows counterparts (at least in my opinion), and were a snap for my wife to click on and start using. XCD-Roast is by no means intuitive, so she's never been able to get a CD burn started in under 1 minute before. I can't express how pleased we both were when she clicked on K3B, grabbed a bunch of MP3 files, and then burned them onto a CD that played in our CD player... all with just a few, intuitive clicks.

      I'm impressed at how good things are now, and we're definitely on the upstroke (or downstroke, whichever is better) of things to come.

      -9mm-

  12. Itch scratching... by Hayzeus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    His points on "Itch scratching" are well-taken. However, this is not ever likely to change when developers are unpaid volunteers. The simple fact of the matter is that people working for free will ALWAYS be inclined to work on stuff they're interested in. I'm not convinced this is an entirely bad thing as it tends to avoid monoculture, at least in these popular areas. For instance, I LIKE having a number of mail systems to choose from. This is a good thing.

  13. My Take on Things- by IWantMoreSpamPlease · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I've been trying to like Linux (and hece the OS community) since 6.1 days and I keep running across the same old tired issues that prevent me from getting anywhere.

    There are, in no order:

    (1) Documentation. I get far too many RTFM when the FM was written for software that is 3 versions old.

    (2) 404s or links to other links which ultimately end up as 404s on web-based FM.

    (3) Tired old sayings such as "Try another distro" (I have a stack of 20 odd distros burned onto CD, everything from the big players, down to things like ArkLinux and Icepak Linux) which obviously doesn't help in any way shape or form.

    (4) The attitude of *nix users. When I was making the switch away from windows, I had two choices, *nix or BeOS. The Be community was (and continues to be this very day) more supportive, helpful ,patient, and understanding than the *nix folks I ran across. Hence I stick with BeOS, because when I run into issues, I know where I can turn and not get attitude and flame-fests.

    (5) The old re-inventing the wheel. You know gang, instead of slavishly coping MS, why not try being different?

    --
    So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
    1. Re:My Take on Things- by MoneyT · · Score: 2, Insightful

      On the documentation / attitude of linux users issue. One of the big problems that OSS faces and will continue to face as it tries to become accepted by the world at large is being told to RTFM, because of the attitude that comes with it. Idealy when a new user comes onto the forums and asks how to do X, they should get a reply (or be directed to a predesigned step-by-step reply) on how to do what they want, and SPECIFIC supplemental documentation.

      Telling them to RTFM is useless when they are confronted with a 30 screen man page and no index or table of contents. And many many times, the documentation is obscure or incomplete. Hell the first time I read some man pages, I kept seeing things like:

      -v Runs _____ in verbose mode

      Well WTF is verbose mode? What information does it give me? How can I use that information? WHy would I want to run it in verbose monde?

      These are all questions that needed to be answered, but were non existant. This is a detriment to the OSS movement. And getting all pissy because you already answered the question 3 months ago to someone else and your sick of answering it and telling them to RTFM is just going to alienate people

      --
      T Money
      World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
  14. What Color Is Your Wheel by nurb432 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I agree totally, too many people try to reinvent the same damned things, just because 'I want it a different color'.

    Users only need one wheel, or they are overwhelmed.. Choice IS a bad thing in some cases..

    Until there is more unity we are stuck in a rut.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  15. Compared to what? by bstadil · · Score: 2, Insightful
    What nonsense. Anyone that works inside a major corporation can attest to much bigger Freuds going on inside those, but they are not (or rarely) done in public.

    Take HP as an example. What do you think some of the Alpha / True64 guys have conjured up against the Itanium/ Microsoft camp and conversely. That should give you a picture of main stream corporate infighting.

    Inside corportions peoples job's are at stake and they fight hard and nasty.

    Open source is a polite debating society in comparison.

    --
    Help fight continental drift.
  16. DVD's? by IshanCaspian · · Score: 4, Informative

    The author should stop griping about the difficulties of playing DVD's, because the MPAA has not allowed linux users a free, legal way to play dvd's. DeCSS, which is what most dvd-playing software is based upon, is illegal in the US. The author loses a lot of credibility by not having his facts straight....he looks like a damn n00b.

    --

    But there is another kind of evil that we must fear most... and that is the indifference of good men.
    1. Re:DVD's? by Kenja · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Any group is able to buy a license and make a US legal Linux DVD player and sell it for a small fee. Of course it wont be GPLd so it will be shuned by closed minded Linux zellots who then will go back to bitching about the lack of a DVD player.

      And this is of course the main problem with the Open Source movment IMHO. People dont set "the software works" as the number one priority. Its "The software is Open" first with working being down around "has a cool splash screen" and "has a name starting in K or G".

      --

      "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
    2. Re:DVD's? by ksw2 · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's actually based on libdvdcss, which has nothing to do with DeCSS (other than the fact it cracks CSS keys.)

  17. I just submitted feedback on this... by pb · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Uh-oh... did linuxworld need to increase its ad impressions?

    Seriously, you can't expect to start a reasonable discussion by spouting as many half-assed examples as you can think of, and then not backing any of it up with either facts or history. Although some of your points have a grain of truth in them here and there, your blind assertions do not help your case.

    First, let us assume that many developers do "scratch the same itch"... why do they do it? Well, generally it's because there's something about the other solutions that are already out there that doesn't meet their needs. Sometimes it's a licensing issue, sometimes two projects spring up at the same time.

    Starting with "sound systems"... the two main ones we have now are OSS and alsa. Originally OSS had two different versions--free and non-free. The free version included in the kernel had iffy support for some cards, and comparatively few people purchased or used the non-free version. Then alsa was born (originally just for better Gravis Ultrasound support!), and it will be replacing OSS in the kernel. What's this? Consolidation of sound systems? Uh-oh... Well, perhaps you meant to say sound daemons or media players or something... let's move on to another example.

    BSD vs. Linux, here's a great one. Why didn't Linus Torvalds just use BSD instead? Well, he couldn't at the time, due to licensing issues. He started writing Linux both to learn about the 386 and because he couldn't afford to buy a workstation from Sun. And by the time the *BSDs were unencumbered, Linux was already a viable Unix system on its own, and certainly more functional than Minix ever was. Oh well, I guess he wasn't writing code just to scratch the same itch... let's move on.

    Gnome vs. KDE. This one boiled down to--you guessed it--a licensing issue! In this case, it was the licensing of Qt, the toolkit used in KDE, that was the issue. Some of this has since been resolved, but there are licensing issues surrounding Qt even today. That's because Qt was written by TrollTech and is sold as a commercial product, whereas GTK was written for The GIMP, "to scratch an itch". Interestingly enough, The GIMP doesn't have a lot of competition--maybe that's because of its quality, its licensing, and its extensible nature. :)

    Debian vs. Red Hat. Yet again, two different products with two different ideologies, one of which is backed by commercial interests, yadda yadda yadda. Interestingly enough, Red Hat's successor, Fedora, is using Debian's package manager now. So maybe they aren't such bitter rivals as you may have thought?

    As for the rest of your generalizations, I resent being painted with such a broad brush. Sure, there are zealots in the open source community; they're present in any and every community. If those are the only people you talk to, then you might get some odd impressions of how that community works. For example, most of the people in the US are Christian, but the few people who come up to you on the street and shout about Christianity are inevitably zealots, crazy people who can't be reasoned with. Does this imply that most of the US consists of crazy zealots who can't be reasoned with? No, it doesn't, the sample size is simply too small.

    Similarly, I won't just read this one article and conclude that the people at Linux World are totally clueless about the Open Source Community and its history, that they're all too lazy to do research, and enjoy making grossly inaccurate generalizations instead. That would be unfair of me. Nevertheless, I hope this article is just an isolated incident, and not the start of a disturbing trend. I recognize that this is an opinion piece, but that's no excuse for FUD, or sloppiness.

    --
    pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
  18. Read the article - he has some points by Dark+Paladin · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I don't claim to be any kind of guru of, well, anything, but I've been working with GNU/Linux for a good 5 years now, setting up servers (Samba, Apache, etc).

    About 18 months ago, I got a Powerbook, and while I still like Linux on the server end, man oh man, do I like OS X - for exactly the reasons that Mr. Turner brings up.

    Simply put: it works.

    I plug in a device - and it works. No compiling, no fiddling with conf files - works. I put in a game, and without once having to find Mesa drivers for X Windows and figure out why I can get video in Quake III but no sound - wait, not I get sound but no video, let me try another sound card and figure out of the chipset is the right kind - AGGGHHH!

    The greatest strength of Open Source is its ability to evolve and grow and fill in gaps. It's truly software evolution - species of software fill in evolutionary needs, and the ones that work best (or are the luckiest in support/notice) get to grow.

    The problem with Open Source, as Mr. Turner observes, is in some ways that same community. How many truly clear, concise, "idiot proof" manuals are written when we need to understand why some piece of Open Source (OS) software isn't acting the way you want? A cry for help will often be answered - all too often by "RTFM", though there are times when a more useful answer is given.

    Probably the best thing that can happen for OS is the continued interest by businesses who want things for thier clients - like easier to use desktop operating systems (like OS X), or better office suites that can be used by secretaries (like Open Office) or administrative tools that can help configure the multitude of options easily and quickly (like what I hope Novell will do with their Suse merger).

    I think that there will always be the dynamic Mr. Turner talks about - which isn't always a bad thing, but I hope the dialectic of Open Source and Business Needs helps to create a better hybrid software animal more suited to survive the wilds of the computer world.

    Just my opinion, of course - I might be wrong.

    1. Re:Read the article - he has some points by Issue9mm · · Score: 2, Funny

      Offtopic as hell, but if it is my opinion that the sky is filled with invisible Skittle monsters that feed on Ozone and exhale oxygen, is that not wrong?

      -9mm-

    2. Re:Read the article - he has some points by tuffy · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I plug in a device - and it works. No compiling, no fiddling with conf files - works. I put in a game, and without once having to find Mesa drivers for X Windows and figure out why I can get video in Quake III but no sound - wait, not I get sound but no video, let me try another sound card and figure out of the chipset is the right kind - AGGGHHH!

      Is that really a fair comparison? If I buy a Mac, I'm getting a closed system with a small hardware compatibility list. Since Apple knows what goes into all of them, it's no surprise they can make an OS that runs without lots of configuration twiddling. If Linux was sold on an equally small number of configurations, surely it could be made to run with equally little hand-configuring.

      But because Linux is often run in the "anything goes" x86 world, hardware incompatibilities are more common. Where standards are well-defined (IDE, USB, etc.), Linux has no problems. In other cases (video cards, sound cards), Linux often lags behind the cutting edge and requires a bit of hand holding. But that's the nature of the platform rather than of the OS. Even Windows can't handle tons of different configurations without help; instead it requires seperate "drivers" for that purpose.

      --

      Ita erat quando hic adveni.

  19. Show me the code.. by XaXXon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    1) Too many developers "scratch the same itch."
    So what? It's not my responsibility to write code for you. I write code for me, and release it under a license that happens to allow for other people to use it. Don't tell me what code I'm allowed to write and what I'm not.

    2) Open Source developers love a good feud.
    So what? You have no right to tell me how I should be spending my time. Sure it's not the most productive use of it, but again, it's MY time. If you don't like it, go away.

    3) Open Source developers often scratch the wrong itch.
    WTF? Scratch the wrong itch? Maybe I'm not scratching your itch, but see point 1. If you don't like what I'm doing, write your own. That's what I did when I wrote this software that scratches the 'wrong itch'. It scratched mine just fine.

    4) In the Open Source Community, you're either "with us or against us"
    Against us? If you want to point out flaws and the people in the group don't appreciate it, you can take the code and apply your own patches and start up a distribution of that code. If the community agrees with you, then you'll be successful. If you end up being the only one who uses your new version, then maybe you're actually wrong about what you were doing and that entire community against you was actually that you were wrong and too dumb to realize it.

    5) The Open Source Community has a huge chip on its shoulder...called Microsoft
    So? This really is the same point as Point 2. And the arguments are the same. So most of us don't like Microsoft? I don't think there are many that won't admit they do some stuff right, but that doesn't matter. It's my time, and I will do with it as I please. If you want to lead by example and convince people there's a better way, a high road, then please, by all means, do so. But telling people who write software that you can use at no cost and have full access to the source that they need to be doing things differently is about the most egocentric thing you could possibly say.

    In closing, go away and write some code. If you can't do that, then just go away.

    1. Re:Show me the code.. by pclminion · · Score: 3, Insightful
      telling people who write software that you can use at no cost and have full access to the source that they need to be doing things differently is about the most egocentric thing you could possibly say.

      Read your own post and tell me again who's egocentric?

      Your sentiment parallels that of many others, namely: "We've provided you with all these things, for free, and you complain? Peon! How dare you question us!" Sounds like you want to be God. Give 'em what you want, and if they complain, well damn them to hell.

      In closing, go away and write some code. If you can't do that, then just go away.

      In other words, you feel that open source should be by developers, for developers. You're entitled to that opinion, but bear in mind that it relegates the OS community to a little corner of reality, where nobody in the real world cares about what you do, and nothing that you do matters. If you want to be a useless, egotistical prick, that's your prerogative. I'm more interested in creating useful software to serve people's needs.

    2. Re:Show me the code.. by pclminion · · Score: 4, Insightful
      When did I say you were doing anything wrong?

      Let me expand what I said just a little bit. There are two classes of complaining users. The first class are just whiners, who complain about the state of things but can't provide any opinion on where things should be going. Case in point, people on the FreeType list saying "The rendering of this font sucks, you need to fix it."

      There is another class of complainers who complain in useful ways, for example: "The rendering of this font sucks, all the stems for the lowercase characters are too wide. Perhaps this is a problem with the autohinter when using composite glyphs?" The complaint spells out the problem, and suggests where to look for a solution.

      Some people on the list are even nicer; they provide code. These people are, of course, the most helpful in the long run, but there is no reason to treat them as more important than anyone else simply because they have the ability to program a computer.

      It is attitudes like yours which are preventing more people from adopting Open Source. Maybe your goal is to maintain OS as the elitist club that it currently is, but many people (myself included) feel that it should be opened up to a wider audience. Why do we feel this way? Because we think people deserve access to free software that fits their needs. It's a philosophical issue. It's called, "Wanting to help people." And helping people does NOT equate to imposing your way of thinking on them.

  20. Too Many Cooks, Not Enough Kirks by Spencerian · · Score: 2, Insightful

    OSS, for all its strengths, lacks a commercial leadership.

    That may sound like an oxymoron, given what OSS is. However, look at the successes in the personal computer world, and who they are led by. Bless ol' Linus, but is he really the leader of all of the Linux community? I'm afraid not. Linux is a distributed OS, with no leaders. Red Hat has come closest to this concept, but is not a popular brand name (yet).

    OSS needs a common identity that ties all its parts together into something that can be recognized by the Joe and Jane Users they try to sway. I don't know if that should be a commercial company, or an not-for-profit, but if OSS wants to see itself as a true alternative to MS, it has to look like an alternative in the business and home computing worlds.

    Oh, and the writer of the article was quite right in that Windows users aren't tolerant of trash talk, but can and will listen to why an alternative is better. Some Macintosh users work that way and get others to make the move, and so should the OSS community.

    --
    Vos teneo officium eram periculosus ut vos recipero is.
    1. Re:Too Many Cooks, Not Enough Kirks by Telex4 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      OSS, for all its strengths, lacks a commercial leadership.

      And therein lies the strength and future of the Free Software movement. If you step back and look at the whole software industry, or perhaps even the whole information industry, you see the Free Software movement, and the other pro-commons movements with which it is related, making such a stir in the industry that governments, NGOs, companies and individuals are getting more and more interested, and traditional players in the industry are either lashing out (RIAA, MPAA) or name calling (Microsoft, SCO) or taking the lessons onboard and becoming better and stronger for it (Apple, IBM).

      The lack of centralised leadership, along with many other features of the very politicised hackerish Free Software community, are what make it stand apart from the rest, not particular technologies. Losing one of the most defining features would reduce the FOSS movement to little more than a commercial competitor, sucked into an outdated property system.

  21. Open Source == Communism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    I think it is high time for the community to get over its self-delusion of being "libertarian" and realize that it is, actually, authoritarian communist. Every successful open source project is run in a top-down authoritarian structure. There is no room for dissent (just watch this post get attacked) and alternative (and profitable) business models are attacked ceaselessly and characterized as "evil". You guys are re-living the soviet revolution, only entirely within the confines of the internet. I predict that the open source movement will be just as unsuccessful. Deal with it.

    1. Re:Open Source == Communism by An+Onerous+Coward · · Score: 5, Funny
      Well, Anonymous Coward has spoken. The Revolution is over, Comrades. We have failed. Now it is time for us to move to Argentina, pirate some copies of Windows XP Professional, fire up Microsoft Word, and start writing our memoirs.

      I for one am planning on taking my own life in shame. I fear that

      You appear to be writing a suicide note. Would you like to:
      • Search MSN.com for psychiatric help in your area?
      • Use a suicide note template?
      • Browse quotes by Emily Dickenson?
      • Find great deals on sleeping pills and handguns?
      Gaaah! No! It's too horrible! We must never give up! Never surrender! Viva la Revolucion! Viva la Tux!
      --

      You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!

  22. Hmm... by mccalli · · Score: 5, Interesting
    'Open source developers often scratch the same itch'

    So, err, remind me - how many closed-source word processors can I go out and by? How many web design packages? How many commercial IDEs? How many instance messenging networks can I join? Wouldn't they be scratching the same itch too?

    ...and 'Open Source developers love a good feud.'

    'They', whoever the amorphous they actually are, probably do. So do the closed source lot as well. The particular feuds they have tend to be called 'lawsuits', and they leave even the most bitter open source feud looking like a kindergarten spat.

    Cheers,
    Ian

  23. A very funny example by ciaran_o_riordan · · Score: 4, Interesting

    just because 'I want it a different color'.

    You'll probably like this:
    A shed, any color will do

    It summarises the observations of a FreeBSD hacker, on feature disputes. Also from the FreeBSD pages, is pretty ontopic:
    How many FreeBSD developers does it take to change a lightbulb?
    (these articles made me consider giving FreeBSD a try, but I haven't gotten around to it yet..)

  24. Evolution seems to work ok by Space+cowboy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Which is basically the same model - lots of different parallel approaches to the same problem, and the best one, or group, wins.

    Closed source companies cannot do this, they operate in a constant state of limited resources. We can. We should consider it a strength and play to it.

    Sure, it get's acrimonious, but this is a symptom of fiercely-fought ideas. If someone feels that passionately about something, they ought to be able to convince others, or they are being blinkered - if they're blinkered, they'll wither and die. If they persuade the rest, they'll move to the next stage. Where's the problem, apart from bruised ego's ? Nature is red in blood and claw. We're slightly more civilised than that already :-)

    Simon

    --
    Physicists get Hadrons!
  25. He has the wrong idea of what OS aims for by Scarblac · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This whole article is just coming from the wrong direction. It assumes that the final goal of OS is to make usable software, that has features for everyone, to have an OS that can run all the binary drivers out there, to unseat Windows!...

    What OS actually is for is, precisely, scratching an itch. Fixing what the developer wants to see fixed. Providing the features the developer wants. Having fun making something that a hundred other people made already. Many Linux developers (for example) couldn't care less about Windows, or converting Windows users to Linux.

    And yes, they like bitching about Microsoft. Because it's so easy to do, I guess.

    These things are only "things that are wrong with open source" if you have the idea that OS is trying to be something that it's not.

    --
    I believe posters are recognized by their sig. So I made one.
  26. Some points yes, some points dumb. by Oriumpor · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The "many itches, many scratchers" is a silly analogy. This is the case in not only OSS but also in for sale products. FOR INSTANCE, Musicmatch, Itunes, Winamp, Windows Media player. Enough said.

    What is truly missing from the overall product creation standpoint is a universal bounty system. If someone were to create a universal bounty system for the application of new software ideas (that benefited the donor, and also gave incentive to the developers) there would be a drastic change in OSS development. Now all of a sudden your target audience is no longer yourself, but an ethereal goal list and a real cash dollar amount to buy some more raman and coffee.

    Yeah sure, these things are "supposed" to be in existence already (sans the bounty) but I don't know how many projects I've seen on freshmeat with an empty .plan or a paltry .todo

    So I'm no professional developer, if I knew there was a series of progressively increasing bounties available for me to freely distribute my ideas to the ether I would be more inclined to spend time doing so seriously. Not all of us are driven by the solution at the end of the problem tunnel, some of us have monetary requirements to fulfil.

  27. when did competition become bad? by MattW · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Feuding and scratching the same itch is merely one form of competition. In the OSS community, you often find a war of ideas, whether that's Gnome vs KDE or Linus insisting on a plaintext /proc.

    I much prefer this war of ideas to the way commercial companies operate -- the war of marketing departments. Is it any wonder OSS turns out better?

  28. The kind of troll who offends the most people.... by voss · · Score: 2, Interesting

    is the one who is right.

    There are still plenty of problems with linux, including a print system that sucks, and plenty of problems that need fixing. It took us until last year to get fonts that looked good without having to add more. Whats worse is our tendency to mimic features in windows instead of trying to surpass windows. Instead of yet another lecture about how everyone should do everything with a CLI, lets get a GUI that is BETTER than mac or windows. A package system that works automatically (even RPM isnt automatic) and having dependent files included with applications.

    Self-honesty is your best weapon.

  29. Don't forget to read the rebuttal... by XaXXon · · Score: 2, Informative

    It's a point/counter-point, so don't forget to read the rebuttal linked at the bottom of the page..

    (also linked here)

  30. The main problem is... by RdsArts · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We write software that we want. We write what we want and say what we want. This is the price you pay for software that's Free. Freedom breeds freedom, and that's the main point people seem to forget when they talk about what's "wrong" with the Free software community.

  31. Re:But I thought... by akaina · · Score: 2, Interesting

    'clone' is a bad way to put it. The whole idea isn't to trick users into thinking they're in Windows. It's to build a spreadsheet program that isn't part of a $600 package, that doesn't truncate data after 65535 entries.

    A spreadsheet is a spreadsheet is a spreadsheet. A browser is a browser is a browser (that's why product placement played the final role in the browser wars), a word processor is a word processor (he forgot the fued over VI and Emacs) etc.

    Cloning software usually denotes heisting something, or just flat out copying. Microsoft 'clones' their own product line on a regular bi-yearly basis. Open source people build better standards like PHP, Apache, Perl etc.

    --
    Remembering that you are going to die is the best way I know to avoid the trap of thinking you have something to lose.
  32. He uses the same political mistakes ... by EJB · · Score: 2, Insightful

    .. as 'open source enthousiasts' often do.

    If you really want to change people's opinions, you better phrase your comments in terms of "you're doing great, but you could be doing even greater" than "what's wrong with you guys". I think someone commented this in the discussion about the way us enthousiasts were trying to influence the EU on the patent directive that was about to be passed.

    I guess the same applies here...

  33. No... by autechre · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I didn't get flamed when I went into #debian and asked a bunch of questions. Neither did anyone else that came in while I was there, and I sat on the channel for several days.

    Perhaps the problem has more to do with your question. The Debian server compromise has been "all over the news", which I believe is why the package servers haven't been updated. It's reasonable to assume that people in #debian might have assumed you knew about the compromise, and they might have been a bit sensitive about it.

    Also, you didn't mention /msg'ing the "apt" bot for news before asking your question, as (IIRC) the welcome message to the server asks you to do. Did you do this? And did the channel topic say something about the break-in, but you were unable to connect it to the servers not being updated?

    Now, I happen to think that Eric Raymond is a jerk, and wrong about a great many things, but he and Rick Moen wrote an essay on how to ask questions that should be required reading for pretty much anyone, and can easily be applied to fields other than computers. My father is a mechanic, and his job and mine have amazing parallels.

    http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.ht ml

    Our LUG has a mailing list, and I've been on it for about 6 years now. I've rarely seen anyone flamed, even for asking really basic questions. One person in particular did ask several basic questions in a row, and was eventually pointed to the above document by several list members. Sadly, he decided to be an ass about it, and some flames were exchanged, but that's the only problem I can remember.

    --
    WMBC freeform/independent online radio.
    1. Re:No... by sisukapalli1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Just to give a perspective, I once went through a linux kernel mailing list archive on google. It was about "using goto." It would be hard to believe, but most of the people, many experts, including Linus himself, patiently answered the questions of a newbie.

      In fact, it was the newbie who was pretty rude -- often saying things like, "so and so book says goto's should never be used, so we shouldn't have them in the kernel. Why don't you guys fix it?"

      People gave very detailed examples and their explanations makes for very interesting reading.

      Now, in a commercial setting, one would often find some manager smiling and saying, "yes, you are right" and change the topic, or sometimes, almost rudely ask for a change in topic. For a casual person, it might seem that the manager is really polished and sophisticated, though it is far from the truth.

      S

  34. here as well by tepples · · Score: 2, Informative

    Slashdot also accepts advertisements from publishers of proprietary operating systems. Your point?

  35. need for standards by agurkan · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Too many developers "scratch the same itch" is a bad thing only for applications/libraries which other software depends on. We know this! This is what standards are for :-) However, for a standard to become standard we need to test lots of options and decide which is best. On the way to standardization we might merge different features, or the standard might require features from different packages which do not exist together at the moment. Different approaches make it easier to decide which feature to keep and which feature to drop.
    I personally do not mind having three plotting and five music playing and twelve font editing packages, it does not hurt anybody, and as the author himself points out, people get selfworth from other people using their package. So if we try to come up with a single solution the result will be fewer developers->fewer packages, not same developers->better packages.

    --
    ato
  36. meta-wrongness by Savatte · · Score: 2, Insightful

    they post flamebaiting articles like this one on major-traffic websites, making for pointless debates instead of getting down and coding.

  37. some small agreeance. by motorsabbath · · Score: 2, Insightful

    He also suggests we often approach the whole issue of encouraging migration to Linux from Windows entirely wrongly

    I've had a pretty good deal of luck with my family and friends getting them switched to Mozilla and OpenOffice on win32 first, and then later on suggesting Linux. Like most desktop users, thoes 2 apps give them everything they need (web, email and and office suite). If they get used to it on win32, using it all on Linux is a no-brainer and they're generally at least willing to try.

    --
    The heat from below can burn your eyes out
  38. Suehring forgot to rebut these points by tepples · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I didn't feel Steve Suehring's rebuttal addressed a couple of James Turner's comments well.

    1. Too much competition Suehring doesn't touch on Turner's point that GNU/Linux distributions often can't use other distributions' binary packages of applications. This is a must if we want to attract users of proprietary yet mission-critical applications to GNU/Linux.

    3. Scratch the wrong itch "I've worked with closed source software where I had to edit a registry setting or manually change a configuration file in order to make the software work (don't forget to reboot the entire server if you make a registry change.)" However, the average Windows program provides a GUI for a larger percentage of its configuration than does the average GNU/Linux program.

    5. Chip on its shoulder Suehring doesn't touch on Turner's point that GNU/Linux support among hardware manufacturers just isn't to the point where I can stick in the driver disc bundled with a device and install the driver.

  39. Beaten up by Windows assholes: non sequitur by aphor · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What if you switched "debian" to "Windows XP" and were talking about a stale Windows Update server? Are you going to go to freenode and get on IRC #WinXP and ask a bunch of wannabes to give you free technical support or reason why they are not as competent as they seem or opportunity to reinforce their position in the #WinXP channel pecking order?

    It isn't plain how the example cited in the parent of this thread is related to the general problems of the free software development community. Are the jokers in #debian at freenode actually the developers at the root of this discussion? Uh... NO!

    So, pardon me if I am concerned this thread might be a troll.

    --
    --- Nothing clever here: move along now...
    1. Re:Beaten up by Windows assholes: non sequitur by maximilln · · Score: 2, Informative

      Of course you're not going to Freenode for WinXP advice. WinXP isn't in the open source community. We know exactly where the WinXP developers are. They're locked inside of Bill Gates' monolith and no, they will never be seen outside.

      On the other hand, if one goes to www.debian.org and reads through the support pages, #debian on the Freenode IRC network is listed as a valid contact point.

      Accusing someone with a legitimate point of being a troll is a _VERY_ bad thing to do.

      --
      +++ATHZ 99:5:80
  40. Don't even bother giving the man the time of day. by Svartalf · · Score: 2, Interesting

    He is NOT worth it to anyone. He thinks that his Senior Editor position gives him a unique insight into "What's wrong with Open Source"...

    He had his damn "points" wrong for various reasons that he obviously didn't think about in the previous article that precipitated this stupid "response" (One, I might add, it was strongly suggested that he re-think the idea from the get-go over on LinuxToday's comment section...)- and most everyone on the feedback forum and on LinuxToday pointed out where he'd gone wrong (Myself included on BOTH forums) and most of them were fairly respectful but also strongly questioned is credibility and credentials, likening him to Enderle (Right or wrong, it felt a lot like Enderle's stuff...).

    He then comes in with a chip on HIS shoulder claiming that we were all about with a chip on our collective shoulder and accusing us of ad-homninem attacks.

    Never mind that the man failed to address the points LEGITIMATELY raised with regards to HIS points. And he still fails to do so now. He won't admit he might have been "wrong" about part or all of his premise and points. He may be right, there may still be things that we have that can impede desktop adoption of Linux, but what he came up with isn't the problem- really it isn't.

    --
    I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
  41. My Personal Experiences by jgardn · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I was having a problem with configuring my webserver with HTML::Mason. Problem was resolved in a few hours by one of the authors of HTML::Mason. Now a neat summary of my problems and its resolutions is available to the world in the archives.

    I am trying to extend PostgreSQL so that it includes efficient Materialized Views. I posted a couple of messages, and the team basically says, "We've all got our personal projects we're working on, but we all want to see M.V. a reality. Here's some pointers and good luck." When I come back with my findings, they point out some more stuff, and the discussion starts to build. I can see having M.V. in PostgreSQL a reality if I keep advocating it.

    These are just two examples of things that just are not possible with closed-source software. The HTML::Mason and PostgreSQL teams are really good examples of open source work at its finest (along with other projects too numerous to mention). But imagine getting this kind of support from Microsoft or SUN. (Well, maybe SUN is fanatical about support and encourages its users to contribute to the codebase, I wouldn't know.)

    This is why Open Source Software (or Free Software, whatever you want to call it) is going to take over the world. Petty irritations exist, but they exist everywhere and are not insurmountable. Eventually, everyone will see what I see in the open source community. I can't imagine "paying" someone for software that I can't look into or modify. No matter how useful it is now, it won't be useful in a few years. Heck, it won't even be supported by anyone. But open source software is timeless and invaluable. When it becomes obselete, it is updated (case in point: sendmail)

    --
    The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
  42. "We Have Met The Enemy and He Is Journalism by Grizzlysmit · · Score: 4, Insightful
    "We Have Met The Enemy and He Is

    Journalism, thats the real truth, this is just another example of Journalism's continuous need for sensation, almost all journo's are just the worst sort of Trolls, BSD is dying, Unix is dying, Aunt Nelly cat is dying, linux ate my clock radio, I moderate the article -1 Troll.

    --
    in my life God comes first.... but Linux is pretty high after that :-D
    Francis Smit
  43. I'm getting paid by Per+Abrahamsen · · Score: 5, Informative

    I write free software for a living, and I'm getting paid. I'm writing an application for a vertical market (i.e. a market with very few customers). They pay me to provide the functionality they need, and they don't care about the license.

    In the other end, the horizontal market, people are getting paid as well. The Linux kernel, Mozilla, and Open Office are primarily developed by people getting paid to do so.

    And in-between these two extremes, people are getting paid as well. Samba, Apache, GCC, GDB and other popular network and development applications are primarily being developed by people getting paid to do so.

    It is true that most free software applications, if you count them on sourceforge, are developed by amateurs in their spare time. But most of these applications have very few users as well.

    Most of the free software most people use are developed by people getting paid to do so.

    1. Re:I'm getting paid by surprise_audit · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Most of the free software most people use are developed by people getting paid to do so.

      Would it be accurate to say that most of the people being paid to develop the popular apps didn't start that way? I mean, didn't these folks start writing the apps in their spare time with no backing specifically for the apps, and then the apps got popular, so they got funding (doesn't matter how) to continue the development? If that's the case, the "amateur" programmers writing those apps on Sourceforge with few users could one day find themselves with a user base to match Apache, Samba, GCC, etc. And a regular paycheck too...

    2. Re:I'm getting paid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You're the exception, and not the rule.

      Seriously, there's less that 1000 OSS developers worldwide who are being paid.

      The rest of us need to actually work for a living.

  44. I have to agree with everything by nberardi · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I have to agree with everything he said in this article. The biggest problem with Open Source today is Open Source it self. It has no strong backing by big corporations. Sure you can say IBM is a backing Open Source, no they aren't, they are using Open Source to drive up profit. They take more than they give. But this all drives to the point, it's hard to make a buck when everybody already has your product and it is free.

  45. Allow me to add a big one to the list.... by gosand · · Score: 3, Interesting
    One flaw of the Open Source community is that it responds to trolls like this article.

    Maybe it is because it is a "community" and nobody rules it, maybe it is because it is passionate about what it does and feels the need to defend it when attacked. There are some things that might need some improving, but the Open Source Community has done quite well the way it has been operating since it started. It will improve when it needs to improve, that is how it works.

    --

    My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.

    1. Re:Allow me to add a big one to the list.... by reverendslappy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You use that same argument when trying to sell OSS solutions to major customers?

      CIO: "I don't like this aspect of [whatever]."
      You: "I'm passionate, and don't feel I need to defend myself from that attack."
      CIO: "Okay... Uh... Well when will this aspect improve?"
      You: "Uh, when it needs to, of course."
      CIO: "Am I supposed to consider that acceptable?"
      You: "That's the way it works."

      And you're probably one of the people that's actually shocked that Windows runs 95% (or whatever) of the desktops in the world. From now on, I'll be damned sure to ignore the incessant bitching and moaning here on /. about Microsoft's marketshare, as OSS will make it to the consumer desktop in meaningful numbers "when it needs to". And, if people like you continue to have the same childish inability to understand criticism, that will happen about a week after never.

      Re-read point #4 (if you even read it in the first place) and tell me you're not exemplifying his complaint with your post.

  46. Oppositional Logic by yintercept · · Score: 4, Insightful
    BSD vs Linux. Gnome vs KDE. Debian vs Red Hat. For every interesting Open Source technology, there are two bitterly feuding camps that spend as much time taking potshots at each other as in improving their own products.

    It seems to me that a problem with a large number of movements is that they are based first and foremost on an oppositional logic and rhetoric. Rather than simply providing a model for open debate and getting things done, the oppositional rhetoric gives us infighting and great wars about the composition of naval lint and the direction of the great social revolution.

    Of course, this is just a problem in OSS, it seems to be occuring just about everywhere. People are subdividing into camps based on whatever thesis/antithesis group the rant about, and are gradually losing the ability to community with the rest of the world.

    1. Re:Oppositional Logic by aldousd666 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This kind of competeition is acutally good. The more 'variation in population' the more choices you have to 'select for' the best workings. You can run KDE on redhat if you want, or Ximian on Debian. Relax. Choice = good. This makes the darwinian evolution of OSS happen at an accellerated pace. Where's the problem again?

      --
      Speak for yourself.
    2. Re:Oppositional Logic by aldousd666 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Granted. They do badmouth eachother. They do indeed put their foot in it in that respect.

      I was more focused on the fact that James, and yourself, seemed to lump all of the OSS developers together as if they had some sort of common tree they were all growing on. Revealing their source code is the only thing they have in common in my mind. (Not up to Jedi standards I'm sad to report) They may all be working on competing ways to solve the same problem, but that doesn't mean that they are doing eachother harm. Where one succeeds, and the other fails, it would benefit them if a third source would come in and pluck the goodies from both their projects. This way it would further the cause, darwin style. Throwing stones at eachother fuels the fire by making them each add more 'features' to their own programs, allowing still more options for the third guy down the road. I still see it ultimately, not immediately, as healthy competition. True enough though that they are hurting themselves by not cooperating with eachother instead of name calling. But they certainly aren't hurting OSS as a whole.

      --
      Speak for yourself.
  47. You are correct, but check his history. by khasim · · Score: 3, Informative

    His current article is a follow-up to a previous article about Linux NOT being ready for the desktop because it didn't work with his 802.11g card and wouldn't play DVD's "out of the box".

    http://www.linuxworld.com/story/38038.htm

    In that article, his solution was to award "kudos" (as you noted) for fixing the "problems" he claimed that rendered Linux "dead" on the desktop.

    I believe that the real solution is to only purchase products from vendors that support Linux.

    As for developers focusing on other aspects, that would be nice. But I'm not about to ask someone who is giving me their labour for free to work harder for my benefit.

    I will contribute financially to projects and I will purchase Linux-friendly hardware and let the vendors know that I'm using it with Linux.

    There are so many ways you can contribute to projects you deem worthwhile.

    #1. Help with the code.

    #2. Money - always appreciated.

    #3. Testing & submitting GOOD bug reports.

    #4. Helping with documentation.

    #5. Maintaining your own "HowTo" for your system.

    etc.

    #2.

  48. What community? by jmv · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I've read the article (yes!) and there are two implicit assumptions that bother me, even without going into the author's points. The first is that there is an open source community. I'm not quite sure of that. There are many developers that work on open-source projects for so many different reasons and don't necessarily consider themselves part of a community. The other implicit assumption is that those you start flamewars are open-source developers. Most of the time, it isn't the case.

  49. distros? by BenjyD · · Score: 4, Insightful

    >There's absolutely no reason for there to be more than two or three distributions

    Let's try and find reasons for more than 3, shall we. Hmmm:

    -Debian: solid, stable, completely free, at the cost of being outdated sometimes
    -Mandrake:Simple distro, ideal for newbies. Not good for linux diehards who like to fiddle with everything
    -Gentoo: bleeding edge, compilation optimisations, easy to reconfigure the way you want it if you know what you're doing. Not so many guarantees on the stability.
    -Redhat:commercial, certified, expensive, well-supported, reasonably up to date.
    -SuSE:somewhat similar approach to Redhat. Keeps Redhat honest through this crazy thing called competition.
    -SELinux - security above all else

    The difference is priorities. Trying to combine their properties (free+certified? Ultra-Secure and custom compilations?) would be hard.

  50. Nothing new here... by QuackQuack · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I've said many of the same things for years.

    OSS/Free Software people often argue that there's no need for proprietary software, free software can provide everything.

    But when I go somewhere like freshmeat, what do I find? More MP3 enocoders/players/front-ends/rippers/catalogers than you can shake a stick at. What don't I find? drivers for some of my devices like scanners, cameras. Productivity applications, like Tax software for instance, and many other things that I can't think of right now, that keep me chained to Windows. Or if I do find them, they are half finished, and barely usable. Some would say, "So fill the void!". I do write my own stuff, but the re are too many things, and I only have so much time to devote to it.

    Don't get me wrong, I love Linux, and need Windows less than ever. But I have a pragmatic approach about it. OSS can do great things, but not everything, there will always be room for proprietary software, and the two should be able to coexist.

    The other problem with OSS is lack of innovation. How many things does the OSS community go about attempting to clone only after someone like MS or another company introduced it? Was there a FreeMware before VMware? Was there Linux PVR applications before Tivo? etc.

    --
    By reading this sig, you agree to the terms of my sig license.
    1. Re:Nothing new here... by Dominic_Mazzoni · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The other problem with OSS is lack of innovation. How many things does the OSS community go about attempting to clone only after someone like MS or another company introduced it? Was there a FreeMware before VMware? Was there Linux PVR applications before Tivo? etc.

      The presence of copying commercial software products doesn't indicate the lack of innovation.

      Earlier you mentioned that Linux is missing Tax software. So, which way do you want it? Do you want someone to create something similar to TurboTax, or create something innovative? You can't have it both ways.

      Aha, you say - OSS developers should write innovative tax software! Yeah, right. If somebody created software that did everything the average taxpayer needed, everyone would immediately start comparing it to TurboTax (and the other commercial offerings). In many ways the OSS program would have no choice but to "clone" the commercial programs, because there's no other logical way to do things.

      There are thousands of innovative OSS programs that are incredibly innovative, that have no parallel in the commercial world. Here are a few off the top of my head:

      1. Audacity - shameless plug, this is my audio editor. It's not a rip-off of CoolEdit or Sound Forge. Of course it looks similar in some superficial ways - they're all audio editors. But Audacity has dozens of innovative, unique features, like an integrated envelope editor, automatic real-time resampling when tracks are at different sample rates, three different types of sample-level editing, etc.

      2. BitTorrent - robust, P2P way to speed up everyone's download speed simultaneously. And yes, it's primarily used for legitimate downloads, imagine that.

      3. GAIM - aha, you say, just another instant messanger! What's innovative here is that it's the only instant messenger to support AIM, ICQ, Yahoo!, MSN, Jabber, IRC, Napster, Gadu-Gadu, Zephyr, and more...which is incredible if you have lots of friends you want to IM and they all use different systems.

      4. Gallery - program that runs on your webserver that makes it fun and easy to upload pictures for everyone to see. Right from the web interface, you can categorize, show slideshows, etc.

      I'm not even listing the thousands of innovative programs that OSS developers have come up with that are primarily of benefit to other developers.

      Why not search the Sourceforge and Freshmeat top 100 lists for new programs? I think you'll discover lots of innovation.

  51. What's Wrong with the Closed Source Community? by sys49152 · · Score: 5, Funny

    1. Too many companies "scratch the same itch."

    We hear that commercial software companies come up with new ideas because they "wanted to make some money." In other words, there was some need they had for a new application, and they "scratched" it by coming up with a tool. The problem is, it's not uncommon to end up with two or three (or more!) different packages doing the same thing. For a specific example, look at what's happened with the relational databases, where there are now several competing packages that have to be supported by each distribution.

    2. Commercial software companies love a good feud.

    Oracle vs Microsoft. Java vs .Net. HP-UX vs AIX. For every interesting commercial technology, there are two bitterly feuding camps that spend as much time taking potshots at each other as in improving their own products.

    3. Commercial software companies often scratch the wrong itch.

    The problem with commercial development is that the developers often aren't the consumers of their products, and thus don't feel the pain of their mistakes. The other problem with commercial software development is that they often don't fix problems or develop new features that aren't going to make them money.

    4. In the commercial software community, you're either "with us or against us"

    Attempts to point out flaws or places where there's room for improvement in an application usually lead directly to legal action. Attempts to contact the company directly lead to either unqulaified indivduals, fees, or, again, legal action. Direct comment from the companies if laded with fear, uncertainty, and doubt: "The GPL is a cancer." "Linux is stealing my IP." "Hey! No benchmarking."

    5. The commercial software community has a huge chip on its shoulder...called Microsoft

    Although Linux is also a popular a target lately too, the merest mention of MS is like a bull having a red cape waved before his eyes. All reason and sense of decorum flies out the window. And while I'm first in line to throw rotten tomatoes at Bill Gates, it's harmful to the community. The reality is that Microsoft owns the lion's share of the non-server OS market. If the first thing you tell all these people who own Windows is that they are idiots, you're not starting out on very good ground to convert them.

  52. Here's his point by bonch · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You, like many in the OSS community, are more concerned with competing with closed source than with innovating your own projects. It's the reason people say things like, "Slashdot isn't pro-Linux, it's anti-M$."

    1. Re:Here's his point by pyros · · Score: 2, Insightful
      It's the reason people say things like, "Slashdot isn't pro-Linux, it's anti-M$."

      I find the quote "FreeBSD is for people who love Unix, Linux is for people who hate Microsoft," a little more apropos. It not only emphasizes the OSS vs Proprietary sentiment that sparked this thread, it illustrates the OSS infighting commented on in the article too.

    2. Re:Here's his point by HiThere · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Before MS started pulling legal tricks, I just wanted my stuff to work better. Now I want them destroyed. They are armed and dangerous, and they wish us ill.

      Even that's an exaggeration. I usually don't even consider MS. But when I do, I remember why I want them destroyed.

      When I work on my projects, I don't consider "How would/does MS do this?" And I couldn't if I wanted to, because I won't agree to their EULA terms. But when you ask me about MS, my only resonse is some variant of "Carthago delenda est!" If you don't know why, then you've been living with your eyes closed, but it sure isn't by happenstance. It took careful work and planning on their part to drive me to this position. That may not be what they thought they were doing, but that was (one of) the effects.

      Just to pick a minor example, one of their EULA terms forbids you to compare one of their products with any other product and publish the results of your comparison without prior approval of the publication by Microsoft.

      Now the US govt is (supposedly) forbidden by the constitution from passing such a rule by the first amendment. But a private monopoly can enforce it via contract law. And be supported by the US govt.

      Were MS not a monopoly, one could just say "Well, let the customers choose some other product.", but MS *IS* a monopoly that had repeatedly acted in illegal ways to destroy the competition.
      Microsoft delenda est!

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  53. Conflict by jbelcher56 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    creates better code. Evolution occurs in a dynamic environment, not in a static one. Just my 2 cents.

    --
    Don't get off the boat. Absolutely, goddamn right.
  54. I'll sum up the real probem in a minute by digitalgimpus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The real problem is that Open Source is to focused on the source.

    What? You may ask...

    Open Source developers put out some great software, Linux, Mozilla, Gimp, GAIM, etc. I could go on for some time.

    Why are they good? Stable, reliable, secure... most will agree to those. Why is it true? Because good coding, and demand to get it right. No corporate preasure.

    So what's the problem? NO END USER FOCUS.

    Mozilla now is working towards an enduser focus. That's a big change.

    But the majority don't. The products are great, but lets face it. As wonderful as KDE is, it's not Aqua, or even Luna. It's good, but not good enough for an end user. There's still computer jargon in the user's face, and it's not pretty like the others.

    Tech support for endusers - missing
    Computer jargon in their face
    Lack of marketing towards end users ("What's gimp?")

    These are the problems.

    IMHO, each project should create a group devoted to end-user focus. That group should work on marketing, and viewing the product through an enduser perspective... not a Geek perspective. And judge if it's end user friendly.

    Linux won't hit the masses as long as the user gets shown the path's to 100000k different things. They don't care... they just want it to work.

    It's great that open source developers are such perfectionists. I personally love it. But what they need to do, is be able to cover it up.

    Perhaps the general release pattern should include:
    Developer release - more powerful, crude like today
    End user release - friendly, hide the ugly.

    End users don't like feeling confused. That's the key. That's what Apple Knows when it invented the iPod's interface. That's what Microsoft is slowly learning. That's what Palm knew. That's why Google is so popular.... simplistic yet powerful.

    Until open source comes to agree on that ideal, it's not going to get that far.

    Again, the products are amazing, and I love them... but I also want them to succeed with the non-geeks who actually have a social life ;-)

  55. Re: Troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Troll!

    Think back to when Chiang Kai-Shek took over China: before that no one worked, everyone was poor, morale was nonexistent.

    True, but -- then again -- no one worked, everyone was poor, and morale was nonexistent _while_ Chiang Kai-Shek ruled China and _after_ he got kicked out. If China has changed, it's only been in the past few decades -- thanks largely to peace and a moderate Communist regime.

    Under the benevolent dictator, a term used to describe Linus Torvalds,

    Some would describe Chiang Kai-Shek as "an incompetent dictator who permitted graft and corruption among his subordinates; a fool who handed the world's largest country to Communists at the start of the cold war." I haven't heard similar descriptions of Linus Torvalds. (In fairness, Torvalds has a much easier job than Chiang Kai-Shek.)

    Within a few short years China was a world power.

    China has been a world power for thousands of years. It reached a low point in the 19th and 20th centuries.

    Chiang Kai-Shek died in 1975 but his methods and teachings continue to this day in China.

    No, they don't.

  56. Well... by bonch · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Does it change the fact that DVD playback in Linux is a difficulty?

    No. Then his point is valid. End users don't care about legal reasons, they care about results.

  57. Mod parent up! by khasim · · Score: 3, Informative

    Three entirely different worlds.

    #1. Microsoft - 95%+ of the desktop so any vendor shipping a product also included Windows drivers.

    #2. Apple - small marketshare so it compensates by restricting hardware selection. That way it can ensure that the drivers are available.

    #3. Linux - small desktop marketshare but it doesn't attempt to limit the hardware choices. So YOU have to be carefull about what hardware you purchase. Some work flawlessly, some work okay, some suck bad, some don't work at all.

    Now, the problems.

    #1. Different vendors write drivers that MAY NOT WORK NICELY with other vendor's drivers. That's one of the reasons that you're told to "Remove the driver, re-install the driver, did that fix it?"

    #2. Limited selection. What else can be said?

    #3. Better than #1, but still problems with un-supported hardware drivers. The good news is you can easily identify and remove the evil drivers. The bad news is that those drivers might be for hardware that your really need.

  58. Text of The Article by TubeSteak · · Score: 2, Insightful
    *POINT-COUNTERPOINT SPECIAL* What's Wrong with the Open Source Community?

    James Turner leads off on the "too many itches" syndrome and other problems - Steve Suehring offers his Counterpoint

    December 1, 2003, http://www.linuxworld.com/story/38073.htm

    Summary
    Just as, in the Java world, there are many competing MVC frameworks for JSP development, so many Open Source developers - says LinuxWorld senior editor James Turner - "scratch the same itch." In this week's installment of our "Point-Counterpoint" series, LinuxWorld editors James Turner and Steve Suehring slug it out over that most contentious of issues: does the Open Source community on occasion shoot itself in the foot? James says it does, constantly; Steve disagrees.

    By James Turner Steve Suehring

    Advertisement
    James Turner: 5 problems with the Open Source community

    There's no question that the Open Source community has a lot going for it. Besides a staggering amount of developer power that can be turned against important problems, the Open Source movement also has a passion and commitment to its work that the commercial software world often envies. But sometimes, the Open Source community can be its own worst enemy. Here are a few reasons why.

    1. Too many developers "scratch the same itch."

    We hear that Open Source developers come up with new ideas because they "had an itch to scratch." In other words, there was some need they had for a new application, and they "scratched" it by coming up with a tool. The problem is, it's not uncommon to end up with two or three (or more!) different packages doing the same thing. For a specific example, look at what's happened with the Linux sound systems, where there are now several competing packages that have to be supported by each distribution. Or in the Java world, look at how many competing MVC frameworks there are now for JSP development.

    A little competition can be a good thing. After all, Linux is all about offering a competing vision for the operating system domain. But when too many competing visions exist, and aren't winnowed down to a small number of options over a short period of time, you end up with a mish-mash of conflicting standards, and a user community that ends up having to download and install a plethora of different packages that all do the same thing.

    A perfect example of the "too many itches" syndrome is the absurd number of Linux distributions that exist out there. There's absolutely no reason for there to be more than two or three distributions. And because each one does things slightly differently, we've ended up with the problem that applications and drivers are rarely made available in binary form, because there are too many versions of too many releases of Linux to support.

    As an application developer, you would have to provide 5 - 10 different binary installs, one for each distribution. Now multiply that times the five or more active releases of a distribution that may be in active circulation, and you see why so few packages are available as anything but source (especially the most recent releases of packages that have not been compiled and included into Linux distributions yet.)

    The next question to consider is, why don't we see more consolidation of technology? The answer: because...

    2. Open Source developers love a good feud.

    BSD vs Linux. Gnome vs KDE. Debian vs Red Hat. For every interesting Open Source technology, there are two bitterly feuding camps that spend as much time taking potshots at each other as in improving their own products.

    It's hard to imagine how much better a lot of Open Source software would be if these groups cooperated and consolidated their efforts, rather than act like the Hatfields and McCoys. Unfortunately, the downside of personal

    --
    [Fuck Beta]
    o0t!
  59. windows to linux by sdibb · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I'll admit, I haven't read the article yet, but I did want to comment on this: He also suggests we often approach the whole issue of encouraging migration to Linux from Windows entirely wrongly.

    For what it's worth, every Linux zealot I've talked to can't remember the last time they used Windows, and wouldn't want to. Even if they do, they think it sucks.

    It seems to me that the people who want Linux to overtake Windows on the desktop are those (like me) who are so used to MS DOS / Windows after using it for 20 years, and are finding it hard to do an instant migration. Instantly my difficulties in transitioning become "what's wrong with Linux."

    I'm not a low-level C coder or anything spectacular, but I do enjoy fumbling my way through Gentoo and IceWM, trying to find the grail of replacing Windows, while still having fun with my OS and learning as much as I can.

    I think that the people who want things to be "their way" are generally out of touch with what the underlying Linux community's goals always have been.

    I could be wrong though. And as more people want to jump ship from Windows to Linux, I imagine that the sides will even out a bit, with a greater influx of novice Linux programmers.

    I think something like _that_ would begin to influence the general direction of some projects. The fact alone that so many people want to ditch Windows anyway shows that some distros are trying very hard to make them very user-friendly.

    But I find it hard to believe that was the goal of most long-term users/developers all along, or that it even is now.

  60. comunity development/compromise OSX vs Linux by acomj · · Score: 2, Informative

    If you look at linux as opposed to OSX, where OSX developed a brand new somewhat consistent desktop in far less time then KDE/GNU existed, you can see some of the problems of open source (The open source model has some advantages too) One of the problems is that so many people work on it, it can be hard to get anything consistent. this

    Look at configuration files for an example. A lot of programs use different formats for configurations, because the developers think there way is best and they're writing the code so its the way they want it. There is no linux boss telling people use X format for config files. This gives the linux distributions less of a conhesive feel than a OS that says "Config files will look like this.. love it of leave it"

    This is why the linux distributions are so helpfull and its painfull to see them leave the desktop market(redhat/ suse etc..). They've been trying to pull everything together with setup tools and a consistent look.

  61. Welcome to the reason OSS is being held back by bonch · · Score: 2, Insightful

    When I read your post, this is what I really see:

    So what? It's not my responsibility to write code for you. I write code for me, and release it under a license that happens to allow for other people to use it. Don't tell me what code I'm allowed to write and what I'm not.

    Translates to:

    So what? I don't like to hear complaints, because it reveals how inadequate the state of OSS is. I'm so insecure that when someone mentions a direction I should take, my foaming-at-the-mouth, reptilian mindset views it as a personal insult, as though somebody is wanting me to take responsibility for something, and I don't like responsibility. I'm selfish, and everything I do revolves around me. I contribute code, but expect people to never criticize it. Logically, if I didn't want to hear criticism, I would keep my code on my private network and never release it, but hypocrisy is a fundamental attribute of much of the OSS community.

    So what? You have no right to tell me how I should be spending my time. Sure it's not the most productive use of it, but again, it's MY time. If you don't like it, go away.

    Translates to:

    So what? I take criticism of software so personally that I view it as dictation of my schedule. My completely anti-social, condescending attitude scares away scores of users, but that doesn't matter to me because I maintain a selfish attitude. I tell people to go away if they don't like what I do. Basically, I'm a big baby who can't handle criticism. Users care about results--I care about myself. And then I complain about the non-acceptance of OSS.

    WTF? Scratch the wrong itch? Maybe I'm not scratching your itch, but see point 1. If you don't like what I'm doing, write your own. That's what I did when I wrote this software that scratches the 'wrong itch'. It scratched mine just fine.

    Translates to:

    Hey, if you point out a flaw in an application that is holding it back, fuck you! I wrote what I want. You're just the user, the person using my software, a pawn in my little world of self-control. I expect people to use stuff without question or criticism unless they're uber kernel developers who can contribute code at the drop of a hat. Otherwise, your opinions are meaningless to me, because I scratched my ITCH!

    Against us? If you want to point out flaws and the people in the group don't appreciate it, you can take the code and apply your own patches and start up a distribution of that code. If the community agrees with you, then you'll be successful. If you end up being the only one who uses your new version, then maybe you're actually wrong about what you were doing and that entire community against you was actually that you were wrong and too dumb to realize it.

    Translates to:

    Write code, or shut up. You also can't criticize movies unless you make movies, stories unless you write replacement stories, football players unless you play better football, or music unless you're an expert guitarist. The most important feedback I could ever receive about software--the people using it everyday, end users--I choose to ignore in order to pacify my ego and mindset of being superior to people. And then I complain about the non-acceptance of OSS!

    So? This really is the same point as Point 2. And the arguments are the same. So most of us don't like Microsoft? I don't think there are many that won't admit they do some stuff right, but that doesn't matter. It's my time, and I will do with it as I please. If you want to lead by example and convince people there's a better way, a high road, then please, by all means, do so. But telling people who write software that you can use at no cost and have full access to the source that they need to be doing things differently is about the most egocentric thing you could possibly say.

    Translates to:

    I answer everything with a question. What? Huh? And the ever-classic, WTF? I take it as a personal insult when someone dare

  62. Re:Your points are entirely distinct by MoneyT · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The question is, why can't the OSS community, with it's legions of developers get a single app to work smoothly and like an Apple or even a Microsoft app? They need to start doing this, and they need to start doing it on a wide scale. Make it useable first, then add more features. Not the other way arround

    --
    T Money
    World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
  63. Itch Egos by rdeadman · · Score: 2, Interesting
    As much as we might complain about the intentions or biases of the article's author, I do think that we have to acknowledge the tradeoff between ego and usability.

    I am co-leader of an open-source project that has been going for about two years. Just after the code was released someone else started a very similar parallel effort. Our project had a more robust, extendable architecture while the other project supported more "devices". I even wrote a "bridge" to allow service providers from the other project to be plugged into ours. Then I sent an email to the other project leader suggesting we merge our efforts. Best of both worlds. While we remain on friendly terms, he wasn't interested, and I think it was fear of losing his role as sole lead developer/architect/leader. Of course, the "space" has suffered since developers have to choose between two frameworks each with strengths and weaknesses and often get confused. And it also dilutes the talent pool available to both projects.

    But the real question is, what can you do? To be fair, the problem space is one that no commercial entity has decided it is worth entering, so in that regard you have to chalk one up for open-source.

  64. I don't know about you... by phorm · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But when I write software, I write it for:

    a) Myself
    b) My employer
    c) Other people that ask for a feature, or I know use the software

    I'm not writing to replace windows, or even really for the benefit of the whole world (in the sense that I'm not trying to make a magic-button GUI app that satisfies everyone), I'm doing it for my own purposes. Nobody else should assume that those purposes necessarily match their own.

  65. Rampant marginal Asperger's Syndrome? by Cryofan · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A passion for "what is right", a passion for logic and truth, an inward focus, fascination with knowledge and patterns, a passion for the quest, for the mission, a need for Truth and Justice, etc etc etc. This all describes marginal Asperperger's Syndrome, and it describes both myself and many of the open source community and the slashdot community....know thyself....

    --
    eat shiat and bark at the moon
  66. What's wrong with the open source movement? by MiniChaz · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Commentators. There are far to many of them with far too little of real interest to say.

    This is nothing new, it has all been said before and we are aware of these "problems".

  67. Guess who? by Dogtanian · · Score: 3, Funny

    showering, maybe?

    Yeah, here's a description of one particularly fanatical 'open-source supporter' (from PBS).

    "If he was busy he didn't bathe, he didn't change clothes. We were in New York and the demo that we had crashed the evening before the announcement, and Bill worked all night with some other engineers to fix it. Well it didn't occur to him to take ten minutes for a shower after that, it just didn't occur to him that that was important, and he badly needed a shower that day."

    Please step forward, Mr.Gates. But not too close.

    --
    "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
  68. Piggyback by Wolfrider · · Score: 2, Interesting

    From the article:
    > There's absolutely no reason for there to be more than two or three distributions.

    --Um, right now off the top of my head we have:

    o Debian (and .deb-based derivatives)
    o Red Hat (and rpm-based derivatives such as SuSE, etc)
    o Gentoo (and I should add Slackware, after double-checking here.)

    --Those are the major families that come to my mind immediately.

    --The reason for having distros like SuSE is that they took the RH model and did something a little different with it. Personally I preferred Suse 6.4 / 7.3 over RH's offerings at the time, and went with it. However that's NO EXCUSE for having incompatible RPM's.

    --The beauty of Debian installs is that .deb's are pretty much universal. I can install Knoppix or Mepis and link straight to the Debian package sources, and everything pretty much "just works" when I do apt-get update / upgrade. Not so with suse / rh, which is one of the big reasons I won't go back to RPM.

    --I agree that we could stand some merging of distros (Mepis could investigate merging with Libranet, for instance) but there are distros such as Suse that cater to a more European audience, and would never merge with RH - although they did get bought by Novell. What they *should* do is make all the RPM packages from here on work with any rpm-based distro, and concentrate on the value-added distro-specific tools (Mepis has it's own System Center, Libranet has it's Admin menu, Suse has Yast, etc.)

    --
    .
    == WolfriderV6 == I'm willing to admit that *I just might* be wrong... Are you??
    1. Re:Piggyback by swv3752 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Mandrake started as RH plus KDE. For the longest time, MDK and RH were binary compatible on pentium plus machines. MDK has significantly diverged from RH in the latest releases that there is less than a 50% chance of a given RPM installing cleanly. The biggest problem is they call libraries different names so a RH RPM is complaining about a missing dependacy even though the missing library is really installed.

      Considering that MDK was the first LSB compliant distro, so if anyone is at fault it would be RH.

      --
      Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
  69. Nothing by cabalamat2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What's wrong with the open source community?

    Er, nothing much. We're doing fine, on the whole. Our only potential weakness is laws that make open source a crime (DMCA, EUCD, etc).

  70. IRTA, *and* IRTRebuttal. Have you? by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 2, Insightful


    A couple of the rebuttals Suehring provides to the points in the article boil down to "The more choice, the better, because in the end the market will decide which choices survive."

    Problem is, the people making buying decisions can't wait until "in the end" to make their purchases. They need solutions NOW, and there's too much risk in choosing from upteen different Linux distributions if (umpteen-2) of them are likely to be defunct in a few years.

  71. Re:Your points are entirely distinct by RedHat+Rocky · · Score: 2

    How about why should they?

    Why should developers do anything other than what they have an incentive to do?

    You want polished apps, you have a couple of options:

    1. Pay for them.
    2. Pay someone to create them.
    3. Make them yourself.

    and I suppose your preferred option
    4. Complain until someone else does it for you.

    An important point is that developers in general are not interested in ruling the world, deposing Microsoft or bringing Linux to the desktop.

    --
    Anything is possible given time and money.
  72. Weak article, but here are some REAL problems. by Ogerman · · Score: 2, Informative
    While some of his points have some validity, such as cases of improper itch scratching, he misses some much bigger issues. There will always be immature people in any community or company. And there will always be people re-inventing wheels (often just for the learning experience, mind you) The challenges we face are more related to communication and better collaboration.

    1.) Standards for simple everyday stuff While diversity in implementation is good, certain things simply need to be agreed upon community-wide:
    • Font handling: not only at the X server level, but for applications. There should be a single config used by all apps, whether KDE/Gnome-2/Gnome-1/Mozilla/etc.
    • Drag-and-drop. Fortunately, this one is being worked on for next-gen X11 versions, such as the Xdnd extension. Once complete, everybody needs to actually use this.
    • Browser bookmarks. As with fonts, there should be a single, common source used by any browsers installed. XBEL anyone?
    • Basic system configuration. There's no reason why all the distros can't decide on a standard configuration system for hardware detection / modules / network settings / X11 config / etc. This would allow KDE/Gnome interfaces to be developed and used across all distros.
    • Security related configuration. The reason why there are so many successful hacks of Linux machines is that it is so difficult for the average person (or even a fairly knowledgeable person) to properly lock down a machine. There needs to be a standard configuration interface for managing network services, building netfilter configs, etc. ACL-enhanced kernels and easy crypto filesystems also need to become the norm. Again, once a standard config interface is in place, standard tools can be written for Gnome and KDE and used across all distros.

    2.) Enterprise database software This is the "killer-app" for nearly all businesses and should be the prime focus for those who want to see F/OSS on the corporate desktop. Trouble is, we don't have a good F/OSS enterprise-class application server! Forget cheesy PHP/MySQL apps. Forget Zope and other web application frameworks. That software has it's place, but it's not up to the task of hard-core database apps. We need something as powerful as J2EE, but without the steep learning curve, alphabet soup of acronyms, sketchy documentation, closed standards, and dependance on proprietary Sun code. Yes, I am aware of JBoss (open-source, non-official J2EE implementation), but it still has the issues listed above. Either a completely F/OSS JRE/JVM/JDK software stack needs to be written or else a completely new application server standard needs to be invented, perhaps using ObjectiveC or Python. GNU Enterprise (www.gnue.org) has a start, but that project seems to be stagnant and uninspired.

    3.) More professional developers Simply put, the F/OSS of greatest quality is usually developed by people who are being paid to meet needs. There are plenty of viable business models and market opportunities. Hobby projects won't cut it. If you want F/OSS to succeed, you need to do your part in the marketplace.
  73. implicit assumptions causing confusion? by snakeplissken · · Score: 2, Interesting

    i think what causes argument and confusion is that there is no 'goal' of the open source community. everyone who considers themself a member will have a reason for 'belonging'. a lot of members will have similar reasons, a lot of members feel that there 'should' be a goal and become frustrated when they see the consequences of the lack of one unifying goal orientated development process.
    smaller groupings of members, whether individuals or organisations have their own goals, often commercial and of course they would benefit from the whole community deciding to commit themselves to that objective. but the community doesn't.

    as i write i wonder if the word community isn't itself misplaced if there isn't one overall unifying destination for all its members, but then i think that perhaps the dissimilarities of licences such as the bsd and gpl instances to those of microsoft et al do define an identifiable grouping or community.

    back to the article: i couldn't help feeling that the first writer has the goal of 'linux on the desktop for all' or whatever, and the second a goal of 'linux on my desktop the way i like it'; of course they disagree, the first was speaking to the lack of community participation by those currently microsoft bound, perhaps at the bottom of the tech-savvy curve, the second was saying the current members are quite happy as they are thankyou every much!
    both potentially true!

    'open source', 'free software' use what terms you will, these refer to a development process and/or to an ideological attitude to intellectual activity. abstract concepts such as these do not have goals, merely consequences, or implications. people have goals, and people are different, contrary and sometimes downright irrational.

    i like the idea of a community/arena blah blah that encompasses the whole range of human idiosyncracies, it may not appear to be moving in one unified direction but i believe that when something matters enough, and when people have the freedom to act, folk mostly do the right thing, indeed looking at the past decade or so, perhaps folk already have! it's that pesky little 'freedom to act' phrase that matters, i see an allegory between my description here and the wider world of social and polictical engagement (or lack of it), but there my navel beckons so i'll stop.

  74. Meritless Accusations: by gte910h · · Score: 2, Insightful

    1. Too many developers "scratch the same itch."

    This is excellent that there is all this itch scratching. It makes the community strong because we travel many roads and only decide to use them when they get somewhere interesting. And since its free for the most part, we don't lose much trying it out.
    The writer also says there is a problem with the huge number of distros. That's honky. If you aim for the linux standards base target, you'll be fine. If you use an X Toolkit that works on gnome and KDE, you'll be fine. If you statically link in the libraries you use, or at least include dynamic versions of your library in your download/install CD that can be installed localally at configure time, you'll be fine. If you use automake, autoconf, and autotool, you'll be fine.
    And there is PLENTY to gain from the huge number of distros. All of them do slightly different things. RedHat? Lots of doc, big company
    supporting you, pretty easy configuration. Mandrake? Readhatlike, more community supported, more graphical installers, etc. Knoppix? In and working in 5 minutes, with less than an hour to
    install. Debian? Quick to keep updated, powerful, and idealogically sound. Suse? Super internationalization support, great for that computer that's being used in Europe or India. Slackware? You want to get used to normal unix administration, as it was in the early nineties. Gentoo, up to date, and quick as the wind. So on and so forth.

    2. Open Source developers love a good feud.

    All developers love a good feud. Commercial software however is owned by someone, so they make a decision which side wins the argument, then its done that way, with the other way usually forced to be forsaken. This is what happens in almost any arena when there is no standard for entry (such as getting a PhD in academic communities) or authority (such as a boss in a commercial company)

    3. Open Source developers often scratch the wrong itch.

    He claims we don't code for the users. We actually code for power and customizability more than intutiveness and low-emmersion use. So? That's one of the things that makes many people LOVE this stuff. Then again, I think it would be an EXCELLENT contribution to almost any project to make quick and easy frontends to hairy processes, a la anaconda for installation of redhat. Then again, I don't really feel like it....

    4. In the Open Source Community, you're either "with us or against us"

    I think that often people forget that they can't abuse the programmers in free software world. They assume that if they request features and the like, they can get them, as a manager can "request" features in a company and will get them. Often, when you critisize a work in the OSS world, you're going to be badmouthing something that was partially constructed as an ego-fix. That's one of the prices you pay for software developed for free.
    Then again, if you say how you love feature XY and Q, but it might be easier to do Z if steps 1,2, and 3 happened, you might inspire the original author or another author to make a tool/frontend/helpfile/change that will do 1,2 and 3 for you. OSS reverses the normal hirearchy of programmer to customer as far as power goes, take that into account, and you'll go far.

    5. The Open Source Community has a huge chip on its shoulder...called Microsoft

    Yup. Microsoft is a bitch. Some of their software does cool things, but they also do much "their own way" due to their highly insular culture, and as a result, they do things "the wrong way". This pisses off people who have an appreciation for software as art or just people who want to get work done. Then there are the counterculture posers. They don't like MS for the pleasure of hating the mainstream.
    This is one of the writers least empty points. I'd point out to most people that there are MANY uses for PC's around the house, especially ones that cost less that $400 total.Most people think that will cost around $1000 to add a PC to do somethiing neat, countin

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    Want to see every step I took to start my company? http://www.rowdylabs.com/blogs/pitchtothegods