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Dell To Techs: Don't Help Customers Remove Spyware
Alien54 writes "Well, more exactly, be advised that if you are giving a Dell for Xmas, not only will it probably come preloaded with spyware, but their tech support lines will refuse to tell users how to remove it, and will not give people advice on where to find some good tools to remove it. As seen in the latest newsletter from SpyWareInfo, Dell sent an internal memo to its tech support minions which says in part: 'NOTICE: Use of spyware removal software may conflict with user license agreements of other applications installed on your system. Please consult your user license agreements for further information. Dell does not endorse the use of spyware removal software and cannot provide support on these products.' This means we do not take callers to download.com or doxdesk.com, nor do we recommend spyware removal programs, nor do we advise callers on the use of spyware removal programs. This includes using phrases "We don't support the removal of spyware, but I use..."'" (Read on below.Update: 12/03 06:36 GMT by T : And for an update, too.)
"Now isn't that just nifty. Several folks in the antispyware/antivirus community have signed an open letter to Dell Inc. asking them to retract this possibly foolish and misguided policy. That letter is located at here." Update: 12/03 06:36 GMT Mike Healan, editor of spywareinfo.com, writes "The original posting is misleading.
Dell is absolutely not installing or preinstalling spyware and the
headline gives the impression that it is."
But an obvious solution, I guess, is simply to not recommend Dell to your friends and family. Not that I ever did in the first place.
That excerpt from the memo says no such thing.
What it says is Dell are for some reason now very aware that they're at risk of getting sued if they advise people to do thinks that violate somebody's EULA.
fortune -o
Who's lawyers called up theirs to tell them user license agreements would be violated if Dell techs told people how to remove Spyware and therefore make Dell liable and sueable?!
Well, no matter, we wipe all the Dells we get in at my company (thank god for RIS).
Jeesh...
If you buy a Dell, they support the hardware and software they sold you. They don't support random crap you decided to download from the Internet, nor will they be able to answer your cooking questions. Why does this surprise people?
Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru?
I'm not getting a Dell!
"We shall grapple with the ineffable, and see if we may not eff it after all." - Douglas Adams
At the small computer shop I run, we're making quite a bit of money these days cleaning off spyware from computers. Everyone has it, and now that it's getting more publicity, everyone wants to get rid of it. When people suddenly realize that their computer actually *is* slower than when they got it, they want it fixed, rather than buying a new one. Which is fine by us. Spyware removal is pure labor. Download AdAware and Spybot, hit it with a double whammy and it's amazing how much smoother older systems run. Viruses used to be the big money makers. Not anymore. So all you Dell customers out there....we'd be happy to help you clean off your system ;)
---- El diablo esta en mis pantalones! Mire, mire!
I don't think that will work for the average user. Dell provides special CDs to restore Dell programs (drivers, support software, and now spyware, it would seem). Since most people would not want to search for every driver individually on the internet, and many use the Dell programs, they'll probably just use the restore CD they reformat, which would just put the spyware back on.
GL
... used for targeted mass marketing!
so yeah, this is a terrible idea.
I work in an on-campus computer repair shop. We're the Dell certified repair center for the entire college.
We pretty much only sell Dells to incoming students, and we're always getting them back in with "my computer is slow." we boot it up and find out they have like 90 million spyware/adaware apps installed. SaveNow, Gator, PrecisionTime, New.Net, WhenUSave, MySearch, SearchNow, IE.Net Drivers, and the list goes on.
Usually we just remove all of them however we can and send them on their way, but apparently if we do this, we'll now be breaking Dells Warranty?
this is definitely not cool, since we can't do that and stay certified...
After a quick RTFA, I see:
If you or a family member receive a Dell PC as a gift this Christmas, you may be in for a surprise, if it becomes infected with spyware.
Emphasis mine.
So there's no spyware known to be shipped on Dells. That's good at least. On to the memo.
NOTICE: Use of spyware removal software may conflict with user license agreements of other applications installed on your system. Please consult your user license agreements for further information. Dell does not endorse the use of spyware removal software and cannot provide support on these products.
What?? They won't support third party utilities that muck around in your registry and delete files in your system directory? Those bastards!
Seriously, nothing to see here folks. It's common sense.
Weaselmancer
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Now, of course, you can violate the EULA and get yourself some spyware removing tools and be ride of it.
Its a whole other story though, if Dell starts advising people to break these agreements. Granted, they are legally gray, but thats the point entirely of not wanting to get into the fray and being a potential party to breaking a contractual agreement.
A lawsuit avoided entirely is better than a lawsuit won.
-
This is a week old news item. The discussion on the security forum of Dslreports brought up some good points. (See this post.)
What happens if the user hoses a system using one of the tools? HijackThis will allow you to 'fix' items that shouldn't be fixed. Spybot can do the same. In my opinion, a spyware killer in a novice's hands can be as damaging as some spyware.
Dell is also covering themselves against lawsuits, as the article pointed out. This should ultimately keep the prices down anyway. Come on folks- Dell support has ceased to be good. You buy a dell for a good price on a great computer, and then you hit up your neighborhood geek if you mess something up.
On a different topic, I wonder just what preinstalled spyware the article was talking about?
-Ryan
AUWYHSTOT (Acronyms are Useless When You Have to Spell Them Out Too)
Well, I was starting to type a message about how disappointed I was with Dell, given all the money I've thrown them. Then, I RTFA for a change and this may not be as bad as it seems.
Dell may just be concerned about legal issues with helping Joe User de-install some software where the EULA requires the Spyware to be running -- Dell would be the ones with the deep pockets after all. And, some spyware removal that involves registry changes might destablize things in some way (I don't know). Probably more corporate lawyer nonsense than a misguided attempt to support spyware in its various forms.
Some program installs come with spyware, and the license agreement does require leaving it alone (since that's the compensation they get for the free software). So, Dell may just not want to step into the middle of this.
Maybe the finger should stay focused on the spyware creaters and bundlers for the time being...
Sleep is for the Weak
In the open letter from the anti-spyware community, they say a representative from Dell informed them the response would be: "Call your ISP."
If that's true, it's a travesty. That's like your car insurance provider telling you that dealing with damage to your vehicle from a collision should be dealt with by the Department of Transportation.
I don't understand why Dell doesn't grab the bull by the horns and partner up with somebody. Isn't that what all the pre-packaged computer companies do these days? They all have a buddy in the anti-virus industry. When digital music became the craze, they leapt to bundle MusicMatch and the like. Why not call up LavaSoft and say, "Want to get packed in with everything we sell?" Dell's choice seems like a step away from gaining customer confidence.
These days we buy the hardware and, sure the preloaded software probably sucks, so you reconfigure what you want or possibly even reinstall your OS. No problem!
But what happens when the hardware is in cahoots with the operating system, as will be the case with trusted computing? Well it may be a lot more difficult to get your computer to do what you want, because certain software components carrying the right keys will easily slide into operating system hooks, while un-"trusted" software (the stuff you want to run) is more difficult to install and run freely.
I can imagine what a spyware-sporting vendor can accomplish with a trusted computing system. Their spyware, "trusted" software, may be automatically installed and automatically re-installed beyond your control. 3rd party efforts to keep this unwanted software out of the system will fail, because that 3rd party software (no matter what you want) is untrusted... hell, the BIOS itself will help police usage of the system. You're in luck, your hardware is going to protect you ;)
> Dell provides special CDs to restore Dell programs...
Debian provide some pretty special CDs too.
Expert in software patents or patent law? Contribute to the ESP wiki!
I work for an ISP, and we received advance warning of this about two days ago. The reason we're concerned is because our policy generally states that if it's not a problem with the cable modem, then it's a problem with the computer and thus the customer needs to call the manufacturer. Spyware falls into the category of "problem with the computer". I've been recommending the use of SpybotS&D for about four months now and haven't been blasted by the managers, but other techs are undoubtedly going to get the "but Dell said spyware was something you guys could fix since it uses the internet" song and dance from customers.
Not that Dell or my company has the right answer either way, but I just wish the weaselly fucks who write spyware would just stop.
"Why Subscribe?" Good question...
Comcast does the same thing. Their software comes preloaded with spyware. Broadjump, I think it's called. It's been a while, but when I worked for them, we were not allowed to say anything regarding spyware or spyware removing, either. I find it quite amusing.
Apple
:'(
$20 says I get modded troll
Error 407 - No creative sig found
OK, this spyware thing is just one example. The fact is that Dell has just lost touch with their home user customer base. One thing I've learned from working with Dell for the past few years is that they don't give a flip about the home users... But then again, why should they? They make money off corporate/government contracts, not supporting grannies who don't know where the any key is.
After having such good experiences with Dell in the Office, we started recommending people buy Dell for their home, too. Oh boy BIG mistake. The hardware is substandard, just about every default installation is munged somehow or another, and the things generally stop working within a year. *NO ONE* I know has gotten a good Dell home PC recently. Meanwhile we noticed a definite decrease in quality of customer support in the past year...
Me: Here's an article from Adobe that says there's a known issue between this motherboard and Adobe Acrobate 5.5, what's the solution?
Faceless E-mail Tech: Here's an article on how to troubleshoot Windows 2000 startup problems.
Me: Argh!
Ad infinitum.
On that note, is there any big name manufacturer that still makes/supports good home machines? People always ask me recommendations but I'm out of them, other than "Just buy a Mac".
dozens upon dozens of help forums talk about it. Whole articles are dedicated the fighting spyware. If a customer is looking for an answer there is no possible way that he could miss many of these articles.
1) How many average Joe Sixpack computer users are aware of the existance of forums or discussion groups.
2) A number of said spyware programs hijack search pages. Running a search through what appears to be Google may result in viagra ads and links to more spyware.
3) Some spyware physically interrupts the internet connection. How would average user find the online articles with no internet connection or a computer too slow to do anything with?
I work for a small computer repair shop, and 95% of the calls/service requests we get are directly related to spyware/junkware. I can't complain, because Dell refusing support would only increase our business. However, I can't help but feel a bit ashamed that the largest OEM in the industry shifted all consumer phone support overseas, and now refuses to support one of the biggest problems facing home users to date. Why aren't spyware apps considered viruses? Certainly the behavior of some programs borders on virus-like. Does Dell even support virus removal?
I think it's good to be a little bit skeptical first before telling everyone not to buy a Dell. That being said, I have some issues:
1. The validity of supposed 'email' that Dell sent out. According to this site, this refers to Dell's own preloaded applications. OK, but since when would Dell EVER refer to their own applications as "spyware" as they have done in this email. Spyware is now quite a volatile topic, and I would imagine that if Dell did infact have some sort of spyware preloaded on their machines, they'd at least be good enough to lie to us (via their techs) about what it is.
2.3rd Party Applications - As mentioned in (1), I don't think Dell would refer to their own applications as spyware, and if for arguments sake believe the email is geniune, then it refers only to 3rd party applications. So then we have a policy that is in line with Dell's general policy of not supporting 3rd party apps.
Most of us work in an environment where we have to deal with Dell's. I personally think the machines are pretty good and the service isn't bad. I've even gotten the techs help find a conflict with a 3rd party app before on a couple of occasions, but I recognize this is above and beyond the call of duty. Does Dell owe us a duty if we install 3rd party spyware to tell us to use a 3rd party spyware removal tool? What if that spyware removal tool removes an important dll and hoses the system? Then the tech support lines become even more efficient.
I just wanted to play devil's advocate here. I have no idea if that email is real or not, but I think we shouldn't immediately jump all over Dell until we can find out the truth. As it stands now, someone has posted a few sentences on a website somewhere - hardly damning evidence.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur
For people I really don't care for, I tell them to get a Dell or something.
Its too much hassle dealing with issues with puters brought on by the downloading various crapware.
I absolutly refuse to answer any question about anything computer related for any of my family. As soon as you fix one problem on their pc you are it for life when ANYTHING happens to that machine.
Screw 'em -- they can figure it out themselves or deal with the helpless desk with whomever they are buying the box from.
Bah!
There is no porn-ware I have not conquered.
One of my clients in a hard-core freak (it's his business, only guys work there, and his PC is largely private anyway. The man has Voyeurweb for his home page, for crissakes) who keeps falling for variations on "Porn Dialer" installers.
The really vile stuff tends to hang a piece of itself in win.ini, where it'll get re-collected into the registry on every reboot. You smack it out with the registry editor or msconfig and it comes back because a little installer that's loaded up because of unpreventable 16-bit Windows compatibility crap.
I've also seen pornware smart enough to modify system DLLs AND the copy in dllcache. sfc.exe fixes that sort of thing, and packages that pull a new.net and redirect DNS requests. Evil stuff.
I don't know where those programs come from but the guys who make those programs are just showing where mainstream spyware will be going next.
-- I wanna decide who lives and who dies - Crow T. Robot, MST3K
As Microsoft is quick to tell us: the OS and the browser are the same. They're integrated.
Dell supports Microsoft's OS and thus its browser. All these spyware apps attach to IE and cause huge problems. I had one person hand me a laptop chock full of spyware constantly changing the homepage (one program would change it and another would change it again) while in the background there were more than a few processes trying to download more spyware and another installing more.
Needless to say IE didnt work at all, it was just stuck on some orbitz page and the thing was more or less locked-up, but I did manage to get ad-aware to run.
Most of my friend's PCs problems can be traced to spyware they dont even know about because of how official ActiveX boxes look and the tons of legalese involved.
Dell would rather recommend a full-reinstall than ask the person "This may remove software you've installed" and be off the hook, legally. Instead Joe and Jane Dell owner will lose their baby photos and everything else they didn't backup after being told to reinstall from the rescue CD.
I think Dell has the obligation to be honest with their customers. If the tech believes its spyware he should tell them what it is and how to remove it - if they want.
More generically we need some kind of media campaign or some way to inform people about spyware, perhaps every company giving away free software without spyware should have an obligatory like to Ad Aware or Spybot during the install process.
Check out some of the support forums in the PC world. A significant number of serious problems are fixed simply with Ad Aware or Spybot.
Oh well, Dell gets a negative mark for not being honest with their customers. Tell the family to buy a Mac this year.
Having lived in the same city as Dell (in fact my church took over the building that used to house Michael Dell's synagogue...) for 10 years, and having known countless people who worked at Dell, and having worked (as a contractor) at Dell myself, I can confidentaly say there is likely one thing and one thing only going on here.
Dell is a leader in a very low margin business. They are virtually masterful at cutting costs. Their corporate buildings are made of prefab concrete, somewhere between ugly warehouse and office building, but just nice enough looking to be presentable and not look especially cheap. They expect their employees to work 60 hours a week and PRODUCE. Yet, they don't pay their employees a whole lot. They are the only major employer in the State of Texas, as far as I know, that has a policy of not paying out vacation time when you stop working there. When I worked there years and years ago, one of my duties was to order office supplies. The basic ball point pens were 3 cents each (due to a special deal with a supplier, I believe), and I was instructed not to order anything other than basic pens without a good reason. Dell also hires virtually all its workers as contractors first; if they are good enough, they may be hired on, but if not, there are no qualms about letting you go.
Fundamentally, if there is one characteristic that describes Dell, it's that they're cheap, cheap, CHEAP.
So, unless there is some evidence to support a different viewpoint, I'm quite certain that Dell is doing this only because they don't want those people to screw up their systems and call tech support back begging for help. Because that would cost more money.
And, to be fair, it's not as if Dell owes their customer help with some problem that is not Dell's fault anyway. If they did offer support for things like that, it might entice people to buy their products, but it would be just a perk.
as an L2. And I'm posting from home(for once). I can tell you this, I didn't get any memo today, yesterday or last week about this. If such a thing would have come out, I would have heard about it.
Flame me if you like, but I have had pretty good experiences with Dell's tech support on the few occasions I have needed it. Mind you, I only go to them for hardware issues. I don't see that they have any obligation to provide support for stupid things that I might do with my own software.
I work in the retail wing of the tech world. The very first thing I recommend to people who complain of slow systems is Ad-Aware, even before I ask how much RAM their computer has, or how fast their processor is. Considering how much crap comes bundled with commonly downloaded software, it usually helps a lot just to run the spyware cleaner. A person who can't tell RAM from Rama can be easily instructed to download a helpful program from a certain site, and told in general terms why it will help. Thankfully, Ad-Aware's pretty easy to run--it even pops up a window offering to do a scan when the install is finished.
For a retail dork, I do a surprising amount of tech support on the job. Assheads that write bloated crap like spyware, and their fellow assheads that tell their employees not to help remove it, make me think I should be paid for doing someone else's damn job.
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
Heh, I have a friend that works at the tech bench at Best Buy and their "tune up" service largely consists of them removing all spyware, defraggin' the HD, and getting rid of anthing that loads on boot. People are always amazed at how fast their computer runs afterwards and happily bring it back in 3 months later when it starts running slow again. Then they fork over another $75.....
Ahh the joys of spyware.
They are not shipping PCs with spyware on it already, they just aren't telling people how to install programs like ad-aware etc. They don't have any requirement to do so, they support problems with the PCs as they ship them, not with extra programs on them.
Stop making stuff up... where do you get this crap information from?
* Car manufacturers won't give people instructions on how to fit after market exhausts.
* Mobile phone makers won't guide people through how to fit after market flashing antenna attachments to their phones.
* Apple won't support customers who want to install linux over the top of OSX...
Really... this is predominantely a guy bitching about how Dell won't send people to his website to buy his product (he is, check the article)...
They have no reason to provide support such as this, it's time the consultants should be using to support the Dell Hardware and Dell Software. Let LavaSoft et al handle their own darn support.
I also stopped recommending Dell about a year ago. I had a Dell that stopped working, so I swapped out the perfectly-normal-looking ATX power supply. When I turn on the computer - poof! sparks and smoke. It's not documented _anywhere_ on the Dell website (I checked), but many systems use a nonstandard pinout on a standard ATX connector. Using a normal power supply will burn out the power supply and possibly the motherboard, too. Dell tech support basically told me, "we don't care" when I complained about this. This isn't just ideological - I'd like a computer where fixing it doesn't cause more problems than I started with.
I've had a mixed record with laptops from Dell. One laptop's screen failed last year after about three months of use (and they did replace it). But try getting a wireless minipci card if you didn't get it with a new system. They shuffled me between three departments on the phone, taking about two hours to decide that they finally found the right part number, but it's out of stock. So...helpful. Yeah....
So if you want a company that'll sell you maliciously nonstandard hardware, and keeps a model in stock for about 15 minutes, then Dell's for you...
The memo was sent because the spyware programs are removing keys in the registry that shouldn't be removed, resulting in destabilized Windows OS (well... more destabilized). I have first hand experience of this happening. It has always been Dell's policy not to recommend any 3rd party software utilities other than what shipped with that particular system... not that every tech has/will follow(ed) that.
It's very simple, really. They have to pay my fee. It usually involves dinner (good food, what my dearly departed Great Depression-survivor grandma used to call "Reagan food,") gas money, and, in the case of my attorney friend whose machine I built for him, free legal advice. Absent those things, well, sorry, I just don't know anything about that problem.
Not only that, but Dell is a source of Spam email. In fact, they are currently my largest source of spam.
Here's how I know. Whenever I begin any "relationship", or line of communication, with any commercial entity (actually, basically anyone other than close friends), I tell them that my email address is "[entity-name]@[my-real-domain].com". I use a combination of Virtualmail and Procmail for this. Then, I *always* communicate with any entity with the virtual email address corresponding to them, and I *never* use it for any other purpose. It's a hassle finding a good MUA/POP3-client that will support "personalities" in a convenient way to manage the "From:" header, but it's doable. Eudora works OK for this (although it has really annoying bugs, in particular with pathetic multithreading code).
So, this helps me to understand who is selling or leaking or giving or trading (etc) my address to spammers.
I've bought things from Dell for maybe 2 years now. About 3 months ago I began getting spam addressed to "dell@...".
Was it a deliberate thing they did to provide customer email addresses to spammers? Was it an employee smuggling customer data out? Was it an outsource employee doing as much? If smuggled out, what other data went, too? Credit card info? Address info? Hmm...
TechSupport and CustomerService were absolutely clueless, but that's not surprising; although it was funny to see how well they can embarrass themselves.
Conveniently, it's a simple matter to redirect all of my "dell@..." email to something like "csd@dell.com", lol. They can keep it!
If general public are made aware of the Factory installed spyware, they will simply stop buying Dell.
Just to clarify, the posting for this story is misleading and incorrect. Dell is NOT bundling spyware. Whoever posted it didn't RTFA. I should know, I wrote that article. I've asked Timothy to update the headline.
FYI, you don't know how beautiful a feeling it is to have your site on the front page of Slashdot, AND have mod points at the same time. I was soooooo tempted......
Mike Healan
Editor
www.spywareinfo.com
Only on
I only own one dell, my laptop(latitude lt, if your wondering), and i found their support amazing. I bought the laptop 3rd hand from my boss who bought it at a sale at the university who had originally purchased it. I'd recieved it wiped and installed win98 (its several years old, p200mhz, 64mb of ram...), but unfortunatly i didn't have any of the drivers. The display wouldn't go to the 600x800 that the lcd was(it still wont in dos), and i also didn't have the modem drivers. One of their tech support guys helped me sift through the website for over an hour to find drivers that might work for this laptop that i had bought third hand. That strikes me as standing behind a product well past any sort of waranty or even reasonable expectations. As for this spywayre thing, it seems to me to be a legal thing. Most programs that contain ad/spyware state in ther EULAs that you have to install gator (CLARIA IS SPYWARE!) or gain or whatever. By removing it, you're probably violating those terms and dell doesn't want to be liable. Here's hoping EULAs will be found void in court sometime soon.
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
No one shoud ever admit to running ME, even under threat of torture and agonizing death.
At least that horrible episode seems to be in your past.
I have a dell running Linux... I've never had a spyware problem...
Oh, wait. You mean it's the OPERATING SYSTEM that is at fault here, and not the machine?
Oh, wait. You mean that everyone here is flipping out cause Dell won't support users making bad decisions due to an insecure OS?
How is this Dell's fault again? Seriously...
Sig.i>
Or maybe the higher ups at Dell have been toking a few too many with "The Dell Dude"
In a world that is Free and Open, who needs Windows and Gates?
Such is the dry smugness of a Mac user.
Really, this is a big problem, though. Companies seem to be taking more and more liberties with users' computers. I, for one, am disturbed by the recent push towards cataloging each of us in massive databases so they can understand our buying patterns and market goods directly to us. I consider such invasive advertising to be boarding on threatening; it gets my blood up.
Perhaps I'm overreacting, but our capitalist system seems to be changing from one of the free market towards one you might call the "compulsory market." We are being coerced into buying things we don't need to "improve the economy." Screw that, I never see any of those fat corporate profits from the recent productivity increases. It's not just about money, it's about realizing that there are more important things than money and market share and commerce in general. When will advertisers realize that methods like telemarketing and spyware are going too far and pissing off more potential customrers than can be made up by the suckers who pad their bottom line by biting at the hook? We have to protest not only spyware, spam and telemarketing but also firms that associate with known offenders, which Dell is trending perilously close to doing.
Electric Monkey Pants
The real problem is when we do clear out all spyware, pop-ups, and other crap that drains preformance, we quickly disable it. We either use tools, reg hacks, or msconfig. and it is gone.
Now when we do that to a users computer, especialy a home user. apps no longer work, their taskbar nolonger tells the tempature, gator no longer saves passwords, that talking monkey or pariot is gone, that flag is gone, and the wallpaper dont change anymore. To them, we broke it. It dont work now and it did before.
The real problem is that it takes so much work to educate those users.
My solution, reformat and reinstall. (use any os except the system restore)
Im a gamer, not a grammer major. This post is full of spelling and grammer mistakes.
Some of the most insidious spyware that people pick up in their day to day work on the internet has the potential to completely disable internet access using Internet Explorer if it is removed from the system.
Now, I'm not advocating spy-ware, or suggesting that these programs are at all righteous--the developers of that software should be hanged--but it doesn't change the fact that if a company like Dell were to recommend that their users download and install something like Adaware they are getting themselves into a whole mess of follow up problems with inept users.
Any software that can potentially shut down the browser that the vast majority of non-saavy computer users employ everyday probably shouldn't be endorsed by a company like Dell... they would be creating a ton of work for themselves trying to explain which pieces of spy-ware should be removed and quarantined, and which should be dealt with by other means. Also, once you've explained what should be removed, then you have to deal with how to remove the spy-ware that Adaware shouldn't touch. We're talking about lots of man hours, and educational phone calls with inept users.
I think we can all agree that it isn't Dell's job to educate every user that owns a Dell on how they should remove spyware that is potentially going to comprimise their internet access through IE. Most people are just incapable of that level of skill anyway. I know I wouldn't want to walk a sixty year old grandma through all that over the phone.
Let's be realistic.
"We're gonna need a bigger boat." - Jaws
It's been the same pain ever since IBM started the modular approach and hardware manufacturers take creative license with the "standards". Naturally it doesn't help when most people run an operating system that is notoriously buggy and insecure.
If they (computer clueless friends & family) already have x86 buy or burn em a mandrake 9.2 set and tell them its either that or the highway. And if they don't have a computer or think of upgrading for gods sake get them to fork out the extra cash for a mac; you and they so won't regret it. Btw they can get a really sweet & speedy ibook G4 laptop for less than $1000.
Of those to whom much is given, much is required.
Actually, like other posters I refuse to build systems for people since that makes me responsible, no matter what they say, for hardware maintenance (i can handle the software side of things... they call me for that no matter). I used to recommend Dell until I received a shipment, about 1 year ago, with their new OS build, full of adds (this is not a friggin' PeoplePC!) and buggy crippleware, one nasty peice that leads to a blue screen under XP if .jpg pictures are viewed, I've reproduced this across multiple computers and called Dell tech support to no avail. At that point I fired them.
I've yet to find a replacement however. Currently I buy from wallmart (lindows PCs $200) and recently from Envision (link?) and in both cases I do the software build myself (I have a nice sys'd ghost of a standard office computer).
If anyone has recommendations on good, low to medium end PC vendors that include nice software builds (windows I'm afraid) please post here!
closed minded is as closed minded does
3) factory installed spyware.
Ummm.... where in the article, the letter, ANYWHERE did it say this?
Just because Dell techs aren't allowed to help callers remove spyware (probably to keep Gator and its ilk from suing the pants off of them), doesn't mean that Dell has installed spyware itself. That's a very big and reckless jump you made.
The
I'm an on-site computer technician. Probably 25-33% of my business is fixing spyware/adware-related issues. Out of my four jobs today, running Ad-Aware fully fixed three of them. The fourth also had a virus. (Yet spyware was causing more problems than the virus.)
I say more power to them. Heck, I love Microsoft. Without all the security holes in Windows XP, I wouldn't have much business. (I even got to be on the local TV news as an expert on computers when blaster hit. My recommendation, on the air, was to buy a Mac, or run Linux.)
No, this post is not a troll. MS' bad security is good for me. Dell's new decision is good for me. Heck, anything that is bad for the user is good for me. (Although my PowerBook, which I carry with me to appointments, and tend to pull out at least once per appointment to make notes, or look things up, is probably bad for me. People see that I use a Mac, ask me which is better, and I flat out tell them. I wonder how many ex-clients are using a Mac now, and haven't called me because of it?)
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
A tiny line at the bottom that requires you to click "Read More" and find it.
Most reputable places would update the headline or the beginning of the summary at the least. They're basically accusing Dell of something we hate that they in fact don't do.
Here's how Dell support works:
If you have a Latitude or an Optiplex you get a much better support experience because these are their high-end business models. Most of my Dell (well when they didnt ship my phone call out to india) support is pretty good because we have a business account and all the fun extended warranty stuff that forces them to kiss our ass.
The home user (Inspiron owners, etc) get the bottom of the barrel support designed to make you jump through every hoop to save money on replacement parts and to deal with the clueless. When I call from work I just say "Yeah this CDROM died, can I get one tomorrow" and we do some chit-chat while he fills in the fields on his computer screen. The next day the drive is here. Trust me, that's not the residential experience at all.
Misleading and incorrect? on Slashdot? Yeah, so what else is new?
I think it was pretty obvious that Alien54 was just being cynical and stupid when he said "not only will [your Dell] probably come preloaded with spyware..." And that comment tainted the whole article. It's the Slashdot editor's job to avoid that, but I guess Slashdot doesn't care too much about accuracy.
The article says:
Since when does copyright protect the "right" to restrict people from removing information? I would think ripping an unwanted page out of a book and throwing it away would be unquestionably fair use.What are we going to have next? Is McDonald's tell us not to remove the pickles on their hamburgers because they have an agreement with some unknown pickle vendor?
All data is speech. All speech is Free.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
I work tech support, and we used to recommend ad-aware all the time. Then we started noticing it botching removals left and right, leaving systems worse off than they were before. The new policy is "There's a product called ad-aware you could try. Use it at your own risk." It's completely understandable for Dell to not allow their techs to even say that, because as anyone who has ever worked tech support will tell you, users do not understand the concept of cause and effect, and they certainly don't listen. Every now and then, one of our techs will accidentally mention ad-aware or something like it in a context that doesn't strongly imply that using it is dangerous. Usually nothing happens. One guy got unlucky, and the user's hard drive crashed the next day. We made him do the data recovery anyway, since from the perspective of the user, it was his fault, and it's difficult to protect him when he recommended a product that's known to occasionally screw up systems. If their hard drive had crashed after he recommended something on the okay list, we'd have backed him up.
The critical thing to remember is that users have a tendency to be paranoid, stupid, and dishonest as long as they're on the phone with tech support. You can save yourself a world of pain by not giving them any excuse to blame their mistakes on you. Maybe it's not nice that Dell won't help these people, but it's good business sense.
Note: I am not saying that ad-aware or any other anti-spyware program is bug-ridden and dangerous by itself. What I'm referring to is the nasty habit of spyware to be designed in such a way as to make it very difficult to completely remove, and incomplete removal results in Bad Things happening. This is why if someone has spyware that won't uninstall, we take them through manual removal. It may be tedious, but we know it works. Since we have documentation for that, the user can't blame us if they screw it up.
WARNING: there is a trojan on your
... that just tells me that they recognize you as a sad geek with no self-respect. Not necessarily saying you are, just saying that's what they think of you. "Bah, he doesn't have anything better to do with his time, anyway."
Let me put this in perspective:
- if a car engineer lived next door, would they call him every month to fix their car for free? Nope.
- if an electronics engineer lived next door, would they call him every month to repair their TV for free? Nope.
- if a plumber lived next door, would they call him every month to unclog their toilet for free? Nope.
- if a skilled carpenter lived next door, would they call him every month to fix some piece of furniture for free? Nope.
Why? Basically because they have more respect for that plumber than for you. They can understand that:
1. Plumbing is real work, and it deserves compensation. On the other hand they likely see you not as an "expert", but rather as "bah, even kids know this stuff. If we only had a 10 year old, we'd ask him instead."
2. They can understand that the plumber has better stuff to do with his time. Like, dunno, grab a can of beer and watch the football game. Whereas what they think of you is more likely the exact opposite "some sad geek who surely has nothing to do with his time anyway."
3. Also because that plumber has enough self-respect to say "no". Whereas you seems to measure your worth by how much other people abused your time. Well, keep flattering yourself, and I'm sure they'll be more than happy to take advantage of you. Because that's all it is: taking advantage of someone who can't say no.
So, dunno, personally I'd rather be know as the "bad" guy who will _not_ fix your computer. (Well, not unless you're willing to pay my consultant fee.)
I don't give a flying ____ (sexual intercourse) if some random neighbour considers me an expert or not. What really matter is if my boss considers me an expert.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
This is one of the really great things about being a computer geek that puts us up there with auto mechanics, plumbers, lawyers, and anyone else with a skill the average Joe needs but doesn't want to pay full price for. I get a lot of home-cooked meals, free beer from the storeowner down the street, extra hardware from people who ask me to replace an older part with a newer one (I replaced a DVD-ROM recently with a DVD bruner, and took home the DVD-ROM), and inherit a lot of older computers when their owners buy a new one :-).
"Can't you see that everyone is buying station wagons?"
Definitely seconded. Most people who don't or haven't worked in tech support don't get this. I've actually had only mild aquaintances actually ring up for computer help - the moment I got in from work. I've even had one person ring up with a problem with getting pictures from a mobile phone they bought that day. Hello? Try calling the people you bought it from, dammit!
Would you ring up a solicitor out of the blue, only knowing someone who knows them, expecting free legal advice? I think not. And don't even get me started on people not even reading what's on the damn screen on front of them. Once word gets out that you know about PCs, people will start ringing, or trying to collar you to talk about PCs etc. People may label you mean for putting your foot down, but it's your free time they're wasting. (rant mode off).
This is one of the really great things about being a computer geek that puts us up there with auto mechanics, plumbers, lawyers, and anyone else with a skill the average Joe needs but doesn't want to pay full price for. I get a lot of home-cooked meals, free beer from the storeowner down the street, extra hardware from people who ask me to replace an older part with a newer one (I replaced a DVD-ROM recently with a DVD bruner, and took home the DVD-ROM), and inherit a lot of older computers when their owners buy a new one :-).
Rrright... so if we'll say it again in plain English, you are happy that you can't afford a restaurant, it's difficult for you to pay for your own beer and you are really happy using a last-century throwaway computer?
If you think that's bad, you should check out the Linux kernel source sometime. Not only is it full of adds, but bit-shifting and bit masks too!
Such abuse of arithmetic logic in an OS is not to be tolerated.
Somebody get that guy an ambulance!
I've got ALL of 'em trained to fork it over when I come around and bail them out. Barter is my favorite, but cash will do just fine, thank you.
From my own (warped) perspective, this is good news. Crapware removal is my bread and butter. It's excellent from a 'repeat business' point of view, also. I clean their machine, give 'em a stern lecture, and then find myself coming back to repeat the process. Nice to see that Dell has taken such a kindly interest in my financial well-being.
Is it fascism yet?
-If anyone has recommendations on good, low to medium end PC vendors that include nice software builds (windows I'm afraid) please post here!
Bah - get the machine out of the box (I buy Dells) and turn it on to see if everything works. Download the drivers for all the hardware from their support site, burn them to CD, repartition the drive so the primary drive is about 4G smaller and add a secondary partition of that 4G, format the drives (format the D: drive as FAT32) and reinstall the OS onto the C: drive.
Once the clean OS is installed with the drivers you burned onto CD, do a Microsoft Update to get the latest updates from Microsoft. Install your favorite anti-virus (McAfee with the web install / updates is a good idea, cost +/- $30 a year), WinZip, Adobe, Office or whatever came with the box, any toys you think they are going to need and know do not have spyware. Add their users and passwords.
Reboot the machine using the boot CD you made, and make a (Ghost / Drive Image / whatever) of the nicely configured C: drive onto the D: drive, splitting the files into 680M sized chunks if the box has a CD burner, or 2G sized chunks if it has a DVD burner. Reboot the machine, burn those to CDs or DVDs and make two copies, one for you, one for them. Burn the app you used to make them onto the media also, and make it bootable.
Voila! Takes a few hours but from then on when (not if) they hose it up you simply walk them through restoring that image - if you are nice and if their machine is limping along well enough you can walk them through backing up their documents first.
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
This strays a bit from the topic at-hand but I felt compelled to weigh in on this subject.
/. : screw other people's computer problems, if I'm off the clock I don't want to be bothered. I thought that way until my mother wanted to buy a computer. She bought her first computer from me when I was a young(er) lad at Radio Shack...it was the right thing for her to do.
In the past, I had much the same attitude as the majority of
I provided little or no tech support for her and, indeed, felt a little indignant when she would call for help. It took several years to figure out that helping one of the two people responsible for bringing me into this world (then clothing, feeding, educating, and disciplining me) was just the right thing to do. The way I see it, I want MY own children to grow up, become successful, and help ME out as I grow old. What makes me so incredibly special that I am too fucking GOOD to do the same for my parents?
So, I help my mother out and occasionally field some support when I am at my fathers or my aunt's house. Hell, I even troubleshot my brother's son's computer during the holidays. Why? I would _never_ consider myself a good samaratin or, even, a terribly pleasant person. Nor do I particularly enjoy doing family computer support after-hours. But, I do it because it is the right thing to do.
What good is the hard-fought knowledge and experience we have gained over technology if we cannot help to improve the lives of our family?
-PONA-
+that's funny...I don't FEEL tardy.+
I bought a Dell a few years ago and, after installing a desktop firewall, discovered that it comes installed with a program called "Encompass Monitor" (encmon.exe). Encmon was attempting to call out something on the order of 20 times per minute, and I blocked the program. A friend advised me that this program is well-known Dell spyware and I should uninstall it. It is not hard to uninstall. You just locate the program on the Control Panel/Add Remove programs and remove it.
Behold - a week or two after I removed Encompass Monitor, I began seeing daily probes INCOMING in the desktop firewall logs from various DSL-identified addresses associated with Dell Computer, Inc. So, the people in Texas who were receiving the log files from this spyware suddenly realized their baby was not phoning home any more and began sending probe packets to my machine to find out why. I am really not sure what Dell was tracking, but I suspect it may have been my web-surfing habits, in an attempt to do data mining for sales to other companies who could target my "interests." If anyone has any better intelligence on what data is sent to Dell by Encmon.exe, I'd appreciate a reply, just out of curiosity.