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Dell To Techs: Don't Help Customers Remove Spyware
Alien54 writes "Well, more exactly, be advised that if you are giving a Dell for Xmas, not only will it probably come preloaded with spyware, but their tech support lines will refuse to tell users how to remove it, and will not give people advice on where to find some good tools to remove it. As seen in the latest newsletter from SpyWareInfo, Dell sent an internal memo to its tech support minions which says in part: 'NOTICE: Use of spyware removal software may conflict with user license agreements of other applications installed on your system. Please consult your user license agreements for further information. Dell does not endorse the use of spyware removal software and cannot provide support on these products.' This means we do not take callers to download.com or doxdesk.com, nor do we recommend spyware removal programs, nor do we advise callers on the use of spyware removal programs. This includes using phrases "We don't support the removal of spyware, but I use..."'" (Read on below.Update: 12/03 06:36 GMT by T : And for an update, too.)
"Now isn't that just nifty. Several folks in the antispyware/antivirus community have signed an open letter to Dell Inc. asking them to retract this possibly foolish and misguided policy. That letter is located at here." Update: 12/03 06:36 GMT Mike Healan, editor of spywareinfo.com, writes "The original posting is misleading.
Dell is absolutely not installing or preinstalling spyware and the
headline gives the impression that it is."
But an obvious solution, I guess, is simply to not recommend Dell to your friends and family. Not that I ever did in the first place.
That excerpt from the memo says no such thing.
What it says is Dell are for some reason now very aware that they're at risk of getting sued if they advise people to do thinks that violate somebody's EULA.
fortune -o
Who's lawyers called up theirs to tell them user license agreements would be violated if Dell techs told people how to remove Spyware and therefore make Dell liable and sueable?!
Well, no matter, we wipe all the Dells we get in at my company (thank god for RIS).
Jeesh...
If you buy a Dell, they support the hardware and software they sold you. They don't support random crap you decided to download from the Internet, nor will they be able to answer your cooking questions. Why does this surprise people?
Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru?
Spyware is a pain in the neck to remove (regedit anyone?), and tech support for removing it probably costs them a fortune.
This just sounds like a semi-good excuse to me.
I'm not getting a Dell!
"We shall grapple with the ineffable, and see if we may not eff it after all." - Douglas Adams
dozens upon dozens of help forums talk about it. Whole articles are dedicated the fighting spyware. If a customer is looking for an answer there is no possible way that he could miss many of these articles.
"we don't support it but I use Spybot Search and destroy" (on my dad's win2k box)
"We don't support it but I use linux"
HP
IBM
Compaq
Alienware
Gateway
Build your own
We have choices, after all.
At the small computer shop I run, we're making quite a bit of money these days cleaning off spyware from computers. Everyone has it, and now that it's getting more publicity, everyone wants to get rid of it. When people suddenly realize that their computer actually *is* slower than when they got it, they want it fixed, rather than buying a new one. Which is fine by us. Spyware removal is pure labor. Download AdAware and Spybot, hit it with a double whammy and it's amazing how much smoother older systems run. Viruses used to be the big money makers. Not anymore. So all you Dell customers out there....we'd be happy to help you clean off your system ;)
---- El diablo esta en mis pantalones! Mire, mire!
Why don't they just refuse to put these software titles on their computers. I feel if a company thinks it can steal your data, it shouldn't be forced upon users and potential new users.
I don't think that will work for the average user. Dell provides special CDs to restore Dell programs (drivers, support software, and now spyware, it would seem). Since most people would not want to search for every driver individually on the internet, and many use the Dell programs, they'll probably just use the restore CD they reformat, which would just put the spyware back on.
GL
... used for targeted mass marketing!
so yeah, this is a terrible idea.
I work in an on-campus computer repair shop. We're the Dell certified repair center for the entire college.
We pretty much only sell Dells to incoming students, and we're always getting them back in with "my computer is slow." we boot it up and find out they have like 90 million spyware/adaware apps installed. SaveNow, Gator, PrecisionTime, New.Net, WhenUSave, MySearch, SearchNow, IE.Net Drivers, and the list goes on.
Usually we just remove all of them however we can and send them on their way, but apparently if we do this, we'll now be breaking Dells Warranty?
this is definitely not cool, since we can't do that and stay certified...
After a quick RTFA, I see:
If you or a family member receive a Dell PC as a gift this Christmas, you may be in for a surprise, if it becomes infected with spyware.
Emphasis mine.
So there's no spyware known to be shipped on Dells. That's good at least. On to the memo.
NOTICE: Use of spyware removal software may conflict with user license agreements of other applications installed on your system. Please consult your user license agreements for further information. Dell does not endorse the use of spyware removal software and cannot provide support on these products.
What?? They won't support third party utilities that muck around in your registry and delete files in your system directory? Those bastards!
Seriously, nothing to see here folks. It's common sense.
Weaselmancer
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Now, of course, you can violate the EULA and get yourself some spyware removing tools and be ride of it.
Its a whole other story though, if Dell starts advising people to break these agreements. Granted, they are legally gray, but thats the point entirely of not wanting to get into the fray and being a potential party to breaking a contractual agreement.
A lawsuit avoided entirely is better than a lawsuit won.
-
If the spyware is on the computer when you buy it, the spyware is also on the "recovery" CD.
Dude, you're getting Debian, and you can try it out with Knoppix, is the only answer that won't cost you $150 and still come with spyware. That's right, XP home comes with spyware all on it's own. Tools such as spybot and addaware, as nice as they are, can't really solve the problem. Closed source sucks that way, and it's getting worse every year.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
All Dell is saying that they can't endorse any spyware removal software. They are not endorsing any spyware. Most likely this is only to save Dell from any legal entanglements. Legally they might be liable to spyware companies if they intervene on user's behalf. If you read the last line, they are telling their reps that they can give personal testimonials but cannot do so for the company. While this is not an ideal solution, we do live in a litigious society.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
This is a week old news item. The discussion on the security forum of Dslreports brought up some good points. (See this post.)
What happens if the user hoses a system using one of the tools? HijackThis will allow you to 'fix' items that shouldn't be fixed. Spybot can do the same. In my opinion, a spyware killer in a novice's hands can be as damaging as some spyware.
Dell is also covering themselves against lawsuits, as the article pointed out. This should ultimately keep the prices down anyway. Come on folks- Dell support has ceased to be good. You buy a dell for a good price on a great computer, and then you hit up your neighborhood geek if you mess something up.
On a different topic, I wonder just what preinstalled spyware the article was talking about?
-Ryan
AUWYHSTOT (Acronyms are Useless When You Have to Spell Them Out Too)
Well, I was starting to type a message about how disappointed I was with Dell, given all the money I've thrown them. Then, I RTFA for a change and this may not be as bad as it seems.
Dell may just be concerned about legal issues with helping Joe User de-install some software where the EULA requires the Spyware to be running -- Dell would be the ones with the deep pockets after all. And, some spyware removal that involves registry changes might destablize things in some way (I don't know). Probably more corporate lawyer nonsense than a misguided attempt to support spyware in its various forms.
Some program installs come with spyware, and the license agreement does require leaving it alone (since that's the compensation they get for the free software). So, Dell may just not want to step into the middle of this.
Maybe the finger should stay focused on the spyware creaters and bundlers for the time being...
Sleep is for the Weak
This is what I always end up doing for family and friends. In the future I will end up working on their computer anyway they go (most of you probally have the same experience). When I work on it I would like to have the most knowledge of the software/hardware configuration.
It sucks that they have to do this, but I can't say I'm surprised. Having worked in tech support for years, there are always crazy rules about things you "can't do" -- and every good tech I've ever worked with breaks them on a routine basis, when they think it will make the customer happy.
In the open letter from the anti-spyware community, they say a representative from Dell informed them the response would be: "Call your ISP."
If that's true, it's a travesty. That's like your car insurance provider telling you that dealing with damage to your vehicle from a collision should be dealt with by the Department of Transportation.
I don't understand why Dell doesn't grab the bull by the horns and partner up with somebody. Isn't that what all the pre-packaged computer companies do these days? They all have a buddy in the anti-virus industry. When digital music became the craze, they leapt to bundle MusicMatch and the like. Why not call up LavaSoft and say, "Want to get packed in with everything we sell?" Dell's choice seems like a step away from gaining customer confidence.
These days we buy the hardware and, sure the preloaded software probably sucks, so you reconfigure what you want or possibly even reinstall your OS. No problem!
But what happens when the hardware is in cahoots with the operating system, as will be the case with trusted computing? Well it may be a lot more difficult to get your computer to do what you want, because certain software components carrying the right keys will easily slide into operating system hooks, while un-"trusted" software (the stuff you want to run) is more difficult to install and run freely.
I can imagine what a spyware-sporting vendor can accomplish with a trusted computing system. Their spyware, "trusted" software, may be automatically installed and automatically re-installed beyond your control. 3rd party efforts to keep this unwanted software out of the system will fail, because that 3rd party software (no matter what you want) is untrusted... hell, the BIOS itself will help police usage of the system. You're in luck, your hardware is going to protect you ;)
So it's definately a lousy policy, but this would be a clarification, nothing more.
Bush: He's Liberal in all the wrong ways.
> Dell provides special CDs to restore Dell programs...
Debian provide some pretty special CDs too.
Expert in software patents or patent law? Contribute to the ESP wiki!
The memo only says not to recommend a third party spyware removal program. It does not say they can't assist the users in uninstalling spyware.
A lot of companies have policies of not recommending third party products they're not prepared to support if something goes wrong.
I work for an ISP, and we received advance warning of this about two days ago. The reason we're concerned is because our policy generally states that if it's not a problem with the cable modem, then it's a problem with the computer and thus the customer needs to call the manufacturer. Spyware falls into the category of "problem with the computer". I've been recommending the use of SpybotS&D for about four months now and haven't been blasted by the managers, but other techs are undoubtedly going to get the "but Dell said spyware was something you guys could fix since it uses the internet" song and dance from customers.
Not that Dell or my company has the right answer either way, but I just wish the weaselly fucks who write spyware would just stop.
"Why Subscribe?" Good question...
Comcast does the same thing. Their software comes preloaded with spyware. Broadjump, I think it's called. It's been a while, but when I worked for them, we were not allowed to say anything regarding spyware or spyware removing, either. I find it quite amusing.
Apple
:'(
$20 says I get modded troll
Error 407 - No creative sig found
OK, this spyware thing is just one example. The fact is that Dell has just lost touch with their home user customer base. One thing I've learned from working with Dell for the past few years is that they don't give a flip about the home users... But then again, why should they? They make money off corporate/government contracts, not supporting grannies who don't know where the any key is.
After having such good experiences with Dell in the Office, we started recommending people buy Dell for their home, too. Oh boy BIG mistake. The hardware is substandard, just about every default installation is munged somehow or another, and the things generally stop working within a year. *NO ONE* I know has gotten a good Dell home PC recently. Meanwhile we noticed a definite decrease in quality of customer support in the past year...
Me: Here's an article from Adobe that says there's a known issue between this motherboard and Adobe Acrobate 5.5, what's the solution?
Faceless E-mail Tech: Here's an article on how to troubleshoot Windows 2000 startup problems.
Me: Argh!
Ad infinitum.
On that note, is there any big name manufacturer that still makes/supports good home machines? People always ask me recommendations but I'm out of them, other than "Just buy a Mac".
While I typically don't care much for Gateway, I have noticed whenever I need to take my laptop in for repairs (whenever meaning frequently- the hardware is junk) they have fliers all over the place warning their customers about spyware and telling them how to get rid of it. I've never liked Dell, and I like them even less now. While most of us on Slashdot are just as happy (if not happier) using custom built machines, I know a lot of less savvy users who like having one company they can go to for support. Unfortunately for them, there just don't seem to be many deservedly reputable manufacturers out there anymore.
I think it's good to be a little bit skeptical first before telling everyone not to buy a Dell. That being said, I have some issues:
1. The validity of supposed 'email' that Dell sent out. According to this site, this refers to Dell's own preloaded applications. OK, but since when would Dell EVER refer to their own applications as "spyware" as they have done in this email. Spyware is now quite a volatile topic, and I would imagine that if Dell did infact have some sort of spyware preloaded on their machines, they'd at least be good enough to lie to us (via their techs) about what it is.
2.3rd Party Applications - As mentioned in (1), I don't think Dell would refer to their own applications as spyware, and if for arguments sake believe the email is geniune, then it refers only to 3rd party applications. So then we have a policy that is in line with Dell's general policy of not supporting 3rd party apps.
Most of us work in an environment where we have to deal with Dell's. I personally think the machines are pretty good and the service isn't bad. I've even gotten the techs help find a conflict with a 3rd party app before on a couple of occasions, but I recognize this is above and beyond the call of duty. Does Dell owe us a duty if we install 3rd party spyware to tell us to use a 3rd party spyware removal tool? What if that spyware removal tool removes an important dll and hoses the system? Then the tech support lines become even more efficient.
I just wanted to play devil's advocate here. I have no idea if that email is real or not, but I think we shouldn't immediately jump all over Dell until we can find out the truth. As it stands now, someone has posted a few sentences on a website somewhere - hardly damning evidence.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur
To those of you who say "Blah blah blah, of course they're not going to support some random crap you download off the Internet, blah blah blah":
Ok, so basically any and all tech-support contracts that came with someone's new Dell, that they paid for, is now void because they installed a PROGRAM? Right. So now what, are we only allowed to install "Dell Approved" software on our own computers? I think I hear the sound of a hood being welded shut.
It all comes down to money, every damn time. It's about the pre-installed software that contains spyware. Dell has contracts with these 3rd party software companies ($$$), and these 3rd party software companies will profit from the use of their spyware. It's a win-win for Dell and the 3rd parties. Guess who doesn't win? The customer who paid $700 for their new computer... But who cares about the customer, anyway? We'll just put them on the line with some $7.00/hr 1st tier call-center techie in India (No offense at all to Indians, but that's where most tech support calls get fielded) that's reading off a script, and has no actual verbal resemblance to a human with feelings or compassion for the poor user who just wants to send their mom a picture of their new baby.
I always used to tell people that if they were going to buy a name-brand computer, to buy a Dell. At least their hardware isn't complete crap.
I guess that recommendation goes in the garbage now.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Even though it's not very nice to hear that from a computer manufacturer, it is no surprise that Dell won't give out advise on how to break somebody's EULA, even if it protects something as nasty as spyware. Endless lawsuits would loom in Dell's horizons if they chose to do so. The thing I'm a bit more concerned is the timing: if they were so concerned, why not to issue this statement before?
Anyway, my 0.02
R.Then some pot-smoking, commercial-acting intern will crack into the master database and get all your favorite pr0n URLs.
Hey! What's wrong with smoking pot, and finding new, fresh free porn sites??
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Bah!
There is no porn-ware I have not conquered.
One of my clients in a hard-core freak (it's his business, only guys work there, and his PC is largely private anyway. The man has Voyeurweb for his home page, for crissakes) who keeps falling for variations on "Porn Dialer" installers.
The really vile stuff tends to hang a piece of itself in win.ini, where it'll get re-collected into the registry on every reboot. You smack it out with the registry editor or msconfig and it comes back because a little installer that's loaded up because of unpreventable 16-bit Windows compatibility crap.
I've also seen pornware smart enough to modify system DLLs AND the copy in dllcache. sfc.exe fixes that sort of thing, and packages that pull a new.net and redirect DNS requests. Evil stuff.
I don't know where those programs come from but the guys who make those programs are just showing where mainstream spyware will be going next.
-- I wanna decide who lives and who dies - Crow T. Robot, MST3K
As Microsoft is quick to tell us: the OS and the browser are the same. They're integrated.
Dell supports Microsoft's OS and thus its browser. All these spyware apps attach to IE and cause huge problems. I had one person hand me a laptop chock full of spyware constantly changing the homepage (one program would change it and another would change it again) while in the background there were more than a few processes trying to download more spyware and another installing more.
Needless to say IE didnt work at all, it was just stuck on some orbitz page and the thing was more or less locked-up, but I did manage to get ad-aware to run.
Most of my friend's PCs problems can be traced to spyware they dont even know about because of how official ActiveX boxes look and the tons of legalese involved.
Dell would rather recommend a full-reinstall than ask the person "This may remove software you've installed" and be off the hook, legally. Instead Joe and Jane Dell owner will lose their baby photos and everything else they didn't backup after being told to reinstall from the rescue CD.
I think Dell has the obligation to be honest with their customers. If the tech believes its spyware he should tell them what it is and how to remove it - if they want.
More generically we need some kind of media campaign or some way to inform people about spyware, perhaps every company giving away free software without spyware should have an obligatory like to Ad Aware or Spybot during the install process.
Check out some of the support forums in the PC world. A significant number of serious problems are fixed simply with Ad Aware or Spybot.
Oh well, Dell gets a negative mark for not being honest with their customers. Tell the family to buy a Mac this year.
Having lived in the same city as Dell (in fact my church took over the building that used to house Michael Dell's synagogue...) for 10 years, and having known countless people who worked at Dell, and having worked (as a contractor) at Dell myself, I can confidentaly say there is likely one thing and one thing only going on here.
Dell is a leader in a very low margin business. They are virtually masterful at cutting costs. Their corporate buildings are made of prefab concrete, somewhere between ugly warehouse and office building, but just nice enough looking to be presentable and not look especially cheap. They expect their employees to work 60 hours a week and PRODUCE. Yet, they don't pay their employees a whole lot. They are the only major employer in the State of Texas, as far as I know, that has a policy of not paying out vacation time when you stop working there. When I worked there years and years ago, one of my duties was to order office supplies. The basic ball point pens were 3 cents each (due to a special deal with a supplier, I believe), and I was instructed not to order anything other than basic pens without a good reason. Dell also hires virtually all its workers as contractors first; if they are good enough, they may be hired on, but if not, there are no qualms about letting you go.
Fundamentally, if there is one characteristic that describes Dell, it's that they're cheap, cheap, CHEAP.
So, unless there is some evidence to support a different viewpoint, I'm quite certain that Dell is doing this only because they don't want those people to screw up their systems and call tech support back begging for help. Because that would cost more money.
And, to be fair, it's not as if Dell owes their customer help with some problem that is not Dell's fault anyway. If they did offer support for things like that, it might entice people to buy their products, but it would be just a perk.
That's all well and good, but at least Dell offers warranties on their systems. I build my own systems, but I recommend Dell systems for people who don't have the need or technical knowhow to build their own. I personally don't see a problem with Dell's policy on this... I think it's their right to avoid potential conflicts from software that did not come preinstalled on the user's system, and they're not obligated to offer support for that.
Who's lawyers called up theirs to tell them user license agreements would be violated
Many programs include Claria's GAIN Network software to deliver advertisements that fund continued development of the programs, with EULA terms to the effect: "You agree not to interfere with the function of the advertisement delivery software included with this Program."
as an L2. And I'm posting from home(for once). I can tell you this, I didn't get any memo today, yesterday or last week about this. If such a thing would have come out, I would have heard about it.
Flame me if you like, but I have had pretty good experiences with Dell's tech support on the few occasions I have needed it. Mind you, I only go to them for hardware issues. I don't see that they have any obligation to provide support for stupid things that I might do with my own software.
They aren't scared, this is a corporation - its a question of risk evaluation. There is less risk and lower probable cost in not breaking EULAs, and not advising people to use software that Dell cannot promise won't trash your machine (e.g. Adaware vs. New.net), and which Dell don't even offer support for, than the other option.
fortune -o
I work in the retail wing of the tech world. The very first thing I recommend to people who complain of slow systems is Ad-Aware, even before I ask how much RAM their computer has, or how fast their processor is. Considering how much crap comes bundled with commonly downloaded software, it usually helps a lot just to run the spyware cleaner. A person who can't tell RAM from Rama can be easily instructed to download a helpful program from a certain site, and told in general terms why it will help. Thankfully, Ad-Aware's pretty easy to run--it even pops up a window offering to do a scan when the install is finished.
For a retail dork, I do a surprising amount of tech support on the job. Assheads that write bloated crap like spyware, and their fellow assheads that tell their employees not to help remove it, make me think I should be paid for doing someone else's damn job.
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
*marks you as a friend* :D
Simpli - Your source for San Jose dedicated servers and colocation!
They are not shipping PCs with spyware on it already, they just aren't telling people how to install programs like ad-aware etc. They don't have any requirement to do so, they support problems with the PCs as they ship them, not with extra programs on them.
Stop making stuff up... where do you get this crap information from?
* Car manufacturers won't give people instructions on how to fit after market exhausts.
* Mobile phone makers won't guide people through how to fit after market flashing antenna attachments to their phones.
* Apple won't support customers who want to install linux over the top of OSX...
Really... this is predominantely a guy bitching about how Dell won't send people to his website to buy his product (he is, check the article)...
They have no reason to provide support such as this, it's time the consultants should be using to support the Dell Hardware and Dell Software. Let LavaSoft et al handle their own darn support.
Having whored myself to CPQ, HP and IBM (ya im the village bicycle of techsupport)
this is nothing new.. at all three companies the only software we supported was M$ thats its.. 3rd party.. call them..
Example of a Call..
oh? sorry... you REALLY REALLY want our help? cause you waited 45 minutes on hold.. and i actually speak english you can understand.. well.. were Not supposed to.. but for $35 charged to a major credit card i will be authorized for a one time support fee to ATTEMPT to resolve the issue you are having that you described to me
now.. the key words we used.. were ATTEMPT, ONE TIME, Described to Me.
wich means... im going to try to fix it, i really aim.. if i cant and you call back to get someone more experianced coff up another $35. and if during the course of troubleshooting i find out its something else.. coff up another $35
only the opening, closing scripts, hold times, talk times and pay cheque ever changed
The More Knowledge you have the Luckier you Get- J.R. Ewing
I also stopped recommending Dell about a year ago. I had a Dell that stopped working, so I swapped out the perfectly-normal-looking ATX power supply. When I turn on the computer - poof! sparks and smoke. It's not documented _anywhere_ on the Dell website (I checked), but many systems use a nonstandard pinout on a standard ATX connector. Using a normal power supply will burn out the power supply and possibly the motherboard, too. Dell tech support basically told me, "we don't care" when I complained about this. This isn't just ideological - I'd like a computer where fixing it doesn't cause more problems than I started with.
I've had a mixed record with laptops from Dell. One laptop's screen failed last year after about three months of use (and they did replace it). But try getting a wireless minipci card if you didn't get it with a new system. They shuffled me between three departments on the phone, taking about two hours to decide that they finally found the right part number, but it's out of stock. So...helpful. Yeah....
So if you want a company that'll sell you maliciously nonstandard hardware, and keeps a model in stock for about 15 minutes, then Dell's for you...
The memo was sent because the spyware programs are removing keys in the registry that shouldn't be removed, resulting in destabilized Windows OS (well... more destabilized). I have first hand experience of this happening. It has always been Dell's policy not to recommend any 3rd party software utilities other than what shipped with that particular system... not that every tech has/will follow(ed) that.
Not only that, but Dell is a source of Spam email. In fact, they are currently my largest source of spam.
Here's how I know. Whenever I begin any "relationship", or line of communication, with any commercial entity (actually, basically anyone other than close friends), I tell them that my email address is "[entity-name]@[my-real-domain].com". I use a combination of Virtualmail and Procmail for this. Then, I *always* communicate with any entity with the virtual email address corresponding to them, and I *never* use it for any other purpose. It's a hassle finding a good MUA/POP3-client that will support "personalities" in a convenient way to manage the "From:" header, but it's doable. Eudora works OK for this (although it has really annoying bugs, in particular with pathetic multithreading code).
So, this helps me to understand who is selling or leaking or giving or trading (etc) my address to spammers.
I've bought things from Dell for maybe 2 years now. About 3 months ago I began getting spam addressed to "dell@...".
Was it a deliberate thing they did to provide customer email addresses to spammers? Was it an employee smuggling customer data out? Was it an outsource employee doing as much? If smuggled out, what other data went, too? Credit card info? Address info? Hmm...
TechSupport and CustomerService were absolutely clueless, but that's not surprising; although it was funny to see how well they can embarrass themselves.
Conveniently, it's a simple matter to redirect all of my "dell@..." email to something like "csd@dell.com", lol. They can keep it!
If general public are made aware of the Factory installed spyware, they will simply stop buying Dell.
Just to clarify, the posting for this story is misleading and incorrect. Dell is NOT bundling spyware. Whoever posted it didn't RTFA. I should know, I wrote that article. I've asked Timothy to update the headline.
FYI, you don't know how beautiful a feeling it is to have your site on the front page of Slashdot, AND have mod points at the same time. I was soooooo tempted......
Mike Healan
Editor
www.spywareinfo.com
Only on
Personally, I do. My virus removal kit is a Linux CD. I'll support someone using Win95 or Win98, as long as they aren't connected to the net. After that the EULAs get too hairy for me, and I won't deal with them.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
I only own one dell, my laptop(latitude lt, if your wondering), and i found their support amazing. I bought the laptop 3rd hand from my boss who bought it at a sale at the university who had originally purchased it. I'd recieved it wiped and installed win98 (its several years old, p200mhz, 64mb of ram...), but unfortunatly i didn't have any of the drivers. The display wouldn't go to the 600x800 that the lcd was(it still wont in dos), and i also didn't have the modem drivers. One of their tech support guys helped me sift through the website for over an hour to find drivers that might work for this laptop that i had bought third hand. That strikes me as standing behind a product well past any sort of waranty or even reasonable expectations. As for this spywayre thing, it seems to me to be a legal thing. Most programs that contain ad/spyware state in ther EULAs that you have to install gator (CLARIA IS SPYWARE!) or gain or whatever. By removing it, you're probably violating those terms and dell doesn't want to be liable. Here's hoping EULAs will be found void in court sometime soon.
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
I have a dell running Linux... I've never had a spyware problem...
Oh, wait. You mean it's the OPERATING SYSTEM that is at fault here, and not the machine?
Oh, wait. You mean that everyone here is flipping out cause Dell won't support users making bad decisions due to an insecure OS?
How is this Dell's fault again? Seriously...
Sig.i>
Or maybe the higher ups at Dell have been toking a few too many with "The Dell Dude"
In a world that is Free and Open, who needs Windows and Gates?
Such is the dry smugness of a Mac user.
Really, this is a big problem, though. Companies seem to be taking more and more liberties with users' computers. I, for one, am disturbed by the recent push towards cataloging each of us in massive databases so they can understand our buying patterns and market goods directly to us. I consider such invasive advertising to be boarding on threatening; it gets my blood up.
Perhaps I'm overreacting, but our capitalist system seems to be changing from one of the free market towards one you might call the "compulsory market." We are being coerced into buying things we don't need to "improve the economy." Screw that, I never see any of those fat corporate profits from the recent productivity increases. It's not just about money, it's about realizing that there are more important things than money and market share and commerce in general. When will advertisers realize that methods like telemarketing and spyware are going too far and pissing off more potential customrers than can be made up by the suckers who pad their bottom line by biting at the hook? We have to protest not only spyware, spam and telemarketing but also firms that associate with known offenders, which Dell is trending perilously close to doing.
Electric Monkey Pants
You would expect Dell to do this. Afterall they have to do something to stay competetive. God knows it's not in building a better product. Instead they use their volume purchasing to cut sweet deals from software and hardware vendors. They always manage to look like a good deal to the average Joe from all thier weaseling, hidden costs and crappy support. Stooping to pre-injecting spyware is only 1 level lower in the hole from which they fester and breed. They call it Dell but we know it better as Hell. tb
The real problem is when we do clear out all spyware, pop-ups, and other crap that drains preformance, we quickly disable it. We either use tools, reg hacks, or msconfig. and it is gone.
Now when we do that to a users computer, especialy a home user. apps no longer work, their taskbar nolonger tells the tempature, gator no longer saves passwords, that talking monkey or pariot is gone, that flag is gone, and the wallpaper dont change anymore. To them, we broke it. It dont work now and it did before.
The real problem is that it takes so much work to educate those users.
My solution, reformat and reinstall. (use any os except the system restore)
Im a gamer, not a grammer major. This post is full of spelling and grammer mistakes.
Some of the most insidious spyware that people pick up in their day to day work on the internet has the potential to completely disable internet access using Internet Explorer if it is removed from the system.
Now, I'm not advocating spy-ware, or suggesting that these programs are at all righteous--the developers of that software should be hanged--but it doesn't change the fact that if a company like Dell were to recommend that their users download and install something like Adaware they are getting themselves into a whole mess of follow up problems with inept users.
Any software that can potentially shut down the browser that the vast majority of non-saavy computer users employ everyday probably shouldn't be endorsed by a company like Dell... they would be creating a ton of work for themselves trying to explain which pieces of spy-ware should be removed and quarantined, and which should be dealt with by other means. Also, once you've explained what should be removed, then you have to deal with how to remove the spy-ware that Adaware shouldn't touch. We're talking about lots of man hours, and educational phone calls with inept users.
I think we can all agree that it isn't Dell's job to educate every user that owns a Dell on how they should remove spyware that is potentially going to comprimise their internet access through IE. Most people are just incapable of that level of skill anyway. I know I wouldn't want to walk a sixty year old grandma through all that over the phone.
Let's be realistic.
"We're gonna need a bigger boat." - Jaws
Dell didn't preinstall spyware. They are not going to recommend tools that randomly delete products off a users system. I can think of quite a few software products that install spyware and will not run without that spyware on the system.
.. well it isn't a good situation for them.
.. over the past weekend I tried the same thing with Gateway .. yikes.
.. their answer? Send it to a local service shop (gateway store), let the computer sit there for 7-10 days before they can look at it.. after they look at it .. it will sit there for another week while the part is shipped in and then sit in a queue until they can install the part and test it .. estimated turn around time? 3 weeks. I'll stick with Dell thank you very much.
So if Dell recommends a product that effectively destroys other applications on the system
<rant>
I still recommend Dell systems. I maintain them for several businesses and I have yet run into a problem with support. Infact, I don't think I ever had to request a supervisor, level 2 support or anything of the like. I state the symptoms, state any diagnostics I did on the system, tell them my results and what appears to be faulty. There have been a few times they requested a few additional tests for me to do just to confirm, but afterwards, a part is shipped out usually next-day air and I install it (or a tech is sent if I cannot address the issue). I can't complain about that. Hehe
I had the problem pinpointed to a specific part of the motherboard
</rant>
all the spyware shit on it.
Dell is obviously getting paid for all this crap they are installing on your computers.
Until people speak up and then take their business elsewhere they will continue to abuse your ass.
3) factory installed spyware.
Ummm.... where in the article, the letter, ANYWHERE did it say this?
Just because Dell techs aren't allowed to help callers remove spyware (probably to keep Gator and its ilk from suing the pants off of them), doesn't mean that Dell has installed spyware itself. That's a very big and reckless jump you made.
The
I'm an on-site computer technician. Probably 25-33% of my business is fixing spyware/adware-related issues. Out of my four jobs today, running Ad-Aware fully fixed three of them. The fourth also had a virus. (Yet spyware was causing more problems than the virus.)
I say more power to them. Heck, I love Microsoft. Without all the security holes in Windows XP, I wouldn't have much business. (I even got to be on the local TV news as an expert on computers when blaster hit. My recommendation, on the air, was to buy a Mac, or run Linux.)
No, this post is not a troll. MS' bad security is good for me. Dell's new decision is good for me. Heck, anything that is bad for the user is good for me. (Although my PowerBook, which I carry with me to appointments, and tend to pull out at least once per appointment to make notes, or look things up, is probably bad for me. People see that I use a Mac, ask me which is better, and I flat out tell them. I wonder how many ex-clients are using a Mac now, and haven't called me because of it?)
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
hilarious as a spectator.... but they have my profound sympathy.
And Yes, I misread slightly the article. I've been having a bad day and this sort of caps it off....
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
A tiny line at the bottom that requires you to click "Read More" and find it.
Most reputable places would update the headline or the beginning of the summary at the least. They're basically accusing Dell of something we hate that they in fact don't do.
Here's how Dell support works:
If you have a Latitude or an Optiplex you get a much better support experience because these are their high-end business models. Most of my Dell (well when they didnt ship my phone call out to india) support is pretty good because we have a business account and all the fun extended warranty stuff that forces them to kiss our ass.
The home user (Inspiron owners, etc) get the bottom of the barrel support designed to make you jump through every hoop to save money on replacement parts and to deal with the clueless. When I call from work I just say "Yeah this CDROM died, can I get one tomorrow" and we do some chit-chat while he fills in the fields on his computer screen. The next day the drive is here. Trust me, that's not the residential experience at all.
Misleading and incorrect? on Slashdot? Yeah, so what else is new?
I think it was pretty obvious that Alien54 was just being cynical and stupid when he said "not only will [your Dell] probably come preloaded with spyware..." And that comment tainted the whole article. It's the Slashdot editor's job to avoid that, but I guess Slashdot doesn't care too much about accuracy.
If I were still working helldesk my reply would be something along the lines of "Sorry sir, Dell inc. has advised me I am not able to help you with removal of spyware, and this includes reccomending such programs as AdAware to you."
Then again, I liked to stir sh*t up, and stuff like this was a common occurance to me (I really wonder how many of my customers tried linux or got off AOL b/c of me)
The article says:
Since when does copyright protect the "right" to restrict people from removing information? I would think ripping an unwanted page out of a book and throwing it away would be unquestionably fair use.What are we going to have next? Is McDonald's tell us not to remove the pickles on their hamburgers because they have an agreement with some unknown pickle vendor?
All data is speech. All speech is Free.
I have but three questions.
At what point does "cost cutting" (sometimes aka "corporate greed") go from being "bad" to "acceptable" or even "good?"
Second question: As Microsoft Windows OSs are literally 3rd party software, does this memo (if authentic) indicate that Dell will stop supporting Windows or any other Microsoft OS?
Third and final question: Would or does this memo prevent a tech from telling a customer something along the lines of "I'm sorry [sir/ma'am], but it's company policy that we are not to recommend spyware removal tools, such as AdAware. Even if I wanted to, I could not tell you to visit lavasoftusa.com or advise you to install and run that program. I am sorry again, but it's company policy that we are not allowed to inform or advise you of such things."
~U.P.
Eat the Path.
I don't agree with Dell and other people saying that Ad-Aware and or Spybot: S&D can screw up IE. It's people who mess around with settings and or install other kinds of crap that screws up IE in the first place.
I've been running Ad-Aware and SB: S&D for years now and it's never yet screwed up ANYONES IE installation, even with online associates of mine or the occasional time I go over to some of my relatives houses to fix their computer(s) because their young kids download all kinds of crap that installs the spyware in the first place, only for me to find that the computer had over 300+ spyware items found!
As to whethr Dells installing spyware? Doesn't suprise me one bit - Dell strikes me the same way HP and Compaq do - they mass produce PC's the same way they do toasters, massive amounts of pc's that may only last 1-2 years before your toaster and or PC breaks down (whicever comes first).
And people wonder why some of us prefer going to LOCAL computer stores to buy computers prebuilt by them with quality motherboards and or parts or just buying everything yourself and assembling it..
You must master your joystick like a fisherman masters bait! - Gimpy
Okay, so how about if (as I suggest above) Dell were to ship consumer systems preloaded with spyware-removal tools, and an EULA that says something to the effect of "installing any program that includes a component that our system maintenance wizard removes, is in violation of the terms of service for this machine". IOW, put the onus of either being well-behaved or "in violation" on the spyware-bearing applications.
As to the spyware's host app's EULA of "you can't remove part without removing all", isn't that kinda like an EULA saying "You may not read this book unless you agree to read ALL the pages", or "You may not watch this television program unless you agree to watch ALL the commercials"?? Even tho Dell is just covering their legal asses, I seriously doubt any such EULA would hold up in court anyway. (Anyone have contrary information?)
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
I work tech support, and we used to recommend ad-aware all the time. Then we started noticing it botching removals left and right, leaving systems worse off than they were before. The new policy is "There's a product called ad-aware you could try. Use it at your own risk." It's completely understandable for Dell to not allow their techs to even say that, because as anyone who has ever worked tech support will tell you, users do not understand the concept of cause and effect, and they certainly don't listen. Every now and then, one of our techs will accidentally mention ad-aware or something like it in a context that doesn't strongly imply that using it is dangerous. Usually nothing happens. One guy got unlucky, and the user's hard drive crashed the next day. We made him do the data recovery anyway, since from the perspective of the user, it was his fault, and it's difficult to protect him when he recommended a product that's known to occasionally screw up systems. If their hard drive had crashed after he recommended something on the okay list, we'd have backed him up.
The critical thing to remember is that users have a tendency to be paranoid, stupid, and dishonest as long as they're on the phone with tech support. You can save yourself a world of pain by not giving them any excuse to blame their mistakes on you. Maybe it's not nice that Dell won't help these people, but it's good business sense.
Note: I am not saying that ad-aware or any other anti-spyware program is bug-ridden and dangerous by itself. What I'm referring to is the nasty habit of spyware to be designed in such a way as to make it very difficult to completely remove, and incomplete removal results in Bad Things happening. This is why if someone has spyware that won't uninstall, we take them through manual removal. It may be tedious, but we know it works. Since we have documentation for that, the user can't blame us if they screw it up.
WARNING: there is a trojan on your
... that just tells me that they recognize you as a sad geek with no self-respect. Not necessarily saying you are, just saying that's what they think of you. "Bah, he doesn't have anything better to do with his time, anyway."
Let me put this in perspective:
- if a car engineer lived next door, would they call him every month to fix their car for free? Nope.
- if an electronics engineer lived next door, would they call him every month to repair their TV for free? Nope.
- if a plumber lived next door, would they call him every month to unclog their toilet for free? Nope.
- if a skilled carpenter lived next door, would they call him every month to fix some piece of furniture for free? Nope.
Why? Basically because they have more respect for that plumber than for you. They can understand that:
1. Plumbing is real work, and it deserves compensation. On the other hand they likely see you not as an "expert", but rather as "bah, even kids know this stuff. If we only had a 10 year old, we'd ask him instead."
2. They can understand that the plumber has better stuff to do with his time. Like, dunno, grab a can of beer and watch the football game. Whereas what they think of you is more likely the exact opposite "some sad geek who surely has nothing to do with his time anyway."
3. Also because that plumber has enough self-respect to say "no". Whereas you seems to measure your worth by how much other people abused your time. Well, keep flattering yourself, and I'm sure they'll be more than happy to take advantage of you. Because that's all it is: taking advantage of someone who can't say no.
So, dunno, personally I'd rather be know as the "bad" guy who will _not_ fix your computer. (Well, not unless you're willing to pay my consultant fee.)
I don't give a flying ____ (sexual intercourse) if some random neighbour considers me an expert or not. What really matter is if my boss considers me an expert.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Definitely seconded. Most people who don't or haven't worked in tech support don't get this. I've actually had only mild aquaintances actually ring up for computer help - the moment I got in from work. I've even had one person ring up with a problem with getting pictures from a mobile phone they bought that day. Hello? Try calling the people you bought it from, dammit!
Would you ring up a solicitor out of the blue, only knowing someone who knows them, expecting free legal advice? I think not. And don't even get me started on people not even reading what's on the damn screen on front of them. Once word gets out that you know about PCs, people will start ringing, or trying to collar you to talk about PCs etc. People may label you mean for putting your foot down, but it's your free time they're wasting. (rant mode off).
We have a neighbor who is a vet, and when she comes over, she gives the kitties a free fifteen-second checkover while scritching their heads. There have been times when the older kitty has not looked well, and, after much deliberation, we've asked her for a second opinion.
When Blaster came out, it hit their computer, and I offered to get rid of it, as well as patch up their machine to the latest Service Pack, et al. It was our way of thanks for some much-welcomed advice about the cats. To their credit, they haven't asked for any further help, but it's available, but it needed, I will avail myself again.
There are some professions where you are the "walking free advice", and you get to respect that when you meet a professional 'cousin'. It's also a hallmark of good friends to ask for that help sparingly.
Mod Karma -1: I sed bad wurds. If I cep my mouf shut, I wud be at riyses.
Dell technicians can and will install Spybot or Adaware rather than going through a whole reinstall. Remember that there are multiple divisions of Dell Tech Support and that there are multiple sites where techs are located. Just because a "memo" (which is just a glorified email) is sent out doesn't mean it's officially the stance of Dell. Remember, these techs want off the phones as quickly as possible and installing Spybot is much faster than a reinstall. I happen to know "official" support policy and currently it doesn't say anything about any Spyware removal software, but Dell's official stance on reccomending third-party software is to say "This program and this program are both good for this kind of thing" rather than endorse just one.
Ive been a desktop/server support person for 10-12 years and always was a Wintel user. At the end of 2002, I was sick of all the problems which had to be readily repaired on my 98/xp/2000 machines at home. Short of a w2k proliant server for storage, all required ENTIRELY too much upkeep, patching, cleaning and maintenance. I have since purchased a DP Macintosh G4 and although its a lot more expensive than a PC, its flawless, and it runs all I need it to run (Video editing, email, web, office apps) 24/7. I now, too, recommend iMacs or Powerbooks if people ask. For the record, my Dell p3 733 is still running fine, I have never had an issue with Dell's tech support. I just can't stand Microsoft's security holes and instability.
For the record, I still do have a 1 Pentium III class machine for whatever I cannot run on the max with OS X.
Just wear the appropriate shirt when you visit your relatives.
...I'd treat them the same as the ones I build: step one is to repartition and install the OS the way I want it. Spyware? what spyware?
Depends. Does RealOne Player count as spyware?
The only reason we have the rights we have is that people just like us died to gain those rights. -- Cheerio Boy
So, if you get someone who is unhelpful, take their name, hang up, and call back. I've had conversations with subsequent tech people who apologized for the previous tech behaviour and ensured that my opinion was escalated. How else do you expect to improve tech support without constructive feedback.
Once I get a knowledgeable tech person - and some groups like their server support seem uniformly good - I've had excellent experiences with Dell.
I once had a problem where a hard drive was slow. It worked, but it was slow. All diagnostics passed but some benchmarks indicated a performance problem. Dell replaced the drive. The new drive worked for a week and then exhibited the same problem. So they replaced the motherboard, but the problem continued. Finally, a tech realized that it was heat buildup related and the power supply fan was probably spinning too slowly to vent the heat and so the drive was going into failsafe mode. They replaced the power supply and the drive again and everything worked.
At this point, I can call and simply state that I need a certain part and why I think it's the problem and I can usually get a replacement without further diagnostics because I know what they expect and so pre-empt the 'make a floppy' routine. Why have you still got a floppy drive on your system anyway?
But realize that the techs have a script to follow and often must satisfy certain steps in order to replace expensive parts. Help them to satisfy these steps and don't waste both your time arguing about each step. If you are sure of exactly what will happen, just tell them it did. But you'd better be sure since any company that ships tens of thousands of systems a week may have a little more insight into what could happen than you, in spite of your wider knowledge.
Dell tech support may frequently suck, but they suck less !
= 9J =
I bought a Dell a few years ago and, after installing a desktop firewall, discovered that it comes installed with a program called "Encompass Monitor" (encmon.exe). Encmon was attempting to call out something on the order of 20 times per minute, and I blocked the program. A friend advised me that this program is well-known Dell spyware and I should uninstall it. It is not hard to uninstall. You just locate the program on the Control Panel/Add Remove programs and remove it.
Behold - a week or two after I removed Encompass Monitor, I began seeing daily probes INCOMING in the desktop firewall logs from various DSL-identified addresses associated with Dell Computer, Inc. So, the people in Texas who were receiving the log files from this spyware suddenly realized their baby was not phoning home any more and began sending probe packets to my machine to find out why. I am really not sure what Dell was tracking, but I suspect it may have been my web-surfing habits, in an attempt to do data mining for sales to other companies who could target my "interests." If anyone has any better intelligence on what data is sent to Dell by Encmon.exe, I'd appreciate a reply, just out of curiosity.