iPod Jr. Rumors Become More Substantial

sdimbert writes "Rumors of a new, smaller, "iPodJr" have been floating around the Rumor Sites for a few weeks (as well a here at Slashdot). But now, the rumors have gained credibility and become more substantial. London's Evening Standard reports today (30 Dec 03) that "Apple has announced a cut-price mini version" of the iPod, "costing 65 [~115 USD], which will be able to store 800 songs." Despite the assertion that Apple "announced" the product, there is no mention of it at their official News Page or their product page for the iPod."

Comments

Aiming at the low end

[netwiz]

This is going to pretty much kill in the low end
Flash-based player market. I was looking at Fry's this weekend, and everything in the $49-99 range only came w/ 128MB, upgradeable to 640. Even assuming that the low-end Apple mini-iPod is only 1-2GB, it's got those other players beat by a mile, and hey, it works w/ iTunes!

I'm really looking forward to next year :)

Re:Aiming at the low end

[bwalling]

This is going to pretty much kill in the low end
Flash-based player market. I was looking at Fry's this weekend, and everything in the $49-99 range only came w/ 128MB, upgradeable to 640. Even assuming that the low-end Apple mini-iPod is only 1-2GB, it's got those other players beat by a mile, and hey, it works w/ iTunes!

I just got a 10GB iPod for Christmas. If it were not given to me, I would never have purchased it. I have wanted an iPod since they were announced, but $300 is more than I think an MP3 player is worth. I looked at the sub $100 MP3 players several times, but none of them were as good as the iPod. It's just not even close (even when you ignore the storage capacity). If Apple truly delivers this product (1GB iPod for $100), it will be a smashing success. I think that I am not alone in looking for a low end iPod (of course, I'm looking no more).

Re:Aiming at the low end

[the Man in Black]

Bah, just use DVDs instead

When you can get me a DVD recorder/MP3 player that fits in my pocket, costs $100, and is super simple to use via iTunes, then sure, I'm all over it.

In the meantime though, my money goes to the R&D demigods over at Apple. The fact that it's miniature firewire storage ALONE would make it worth a hundred bucks to me, but it's also designed by the current most successful and easy to use mp3 player?

Re:Aiming at the low end

[Ziviyr]

Commercial success isn't tightly linked with having a good product, and deification often leads to disillusionment.

Re:Aiming at the low end

[Frymaster]

you are exactly the target market apple is gunning for.

the ipod has been out for a while now and given its fairly long use-life just about everybody who was willing to get one at $300 has probably done so already.

now apple is gunning to pick up the people who wanted one but balked at the price point. kinda like publishers who put out the hardcover for the the $30 crowd and then eight months later release a paperback for the $7 folks.

Re:Aiming at the low end

[netwiz]

Except that you lose the option of having playlists, the player requires more power per song played (the DVD's gonna have a _way_ higher rotational moment of inertia, so spinup and spindown are more costly), and it's still not as iTunes-compatible. Sure, the hypothetical DVD-player could still use iTunes, but now that we're up to a DVD-player, it's _going_ to be more expensive, esp. considering most of the rumors are fora sub-$100 device.

And CDs have the same playist issues, along with lesser capacity.

Re:Aiming at the low end

[abacsalmasi]

A $100 minipod is definately a possibility either with a Flash a HD based system but my money is on a HD system with more or less the same look and feel as the original iPod. Apple isn't going to bring to market a product that lacks in design, usability, and ease of use. That's just not Apple. This might be a historacle moment for Apple, releasing something price competitive. I think Steve took a business course this summer and realised that they have such a good product on their hand that HE even knows he has to play the game. A 1" 2-4 G cheap HD seems very likely, it's already being done, and I am sure that Steve could convince some company to let them go at a good price because of the demand that exists for the iPods. He's got a lot of barganing chips and he'll use them. Remember, this is a guy who convinced the stingy money-sucking music whores to get on board with his idea and now look what happend. Coke and Walmart music stores? C'mon, what's next, a Staples or Home Depot online store? I think people are going to fall in line with Mr. Steve, he's proven time and time again that he can change the world of digital media wether it be through computers, software, or peripherals. Apple is always the first ones on the field ready to play, they might not make the most money, but they start the game. Why wouldn't a company take a chance and be the first to market with them, best price, best product, and dominate, all for a little price break on HD's? People believe in him now, and his reality distortion field. Hi mom.

Re:Aiming at the low end

[netwiz]

No, it won't. But I still don't get playlists. I don't get full iTunes compatibility. I've got less capacity than the rumored 2GB unit, and I have to change disks. I've also got to haul around a honking gigantic (by comparison) CD-player that doesn't fit in any pocket I own.

Those features are enough to justify another fifty bucks.

Re:Aiming at the low end

[Ohreally_factor]

Which then gets OCR'd for the $0 folks.

I'll sell you a jpeg of my iPod for cheap.

Re:Aiming at the low end

[oscast]

"This might be a historacle moment for Apple, releasing something price competitive." All of Apple's hardware (and software) is price competitive. Apple simply doesn't sell low-end cheapy products, but of the products they do sell... they are VERY price competitive.

Re:Aiming at the low end

[overunderunderdone]

I disagree, to some degree Apple's premium pricing as a marketing strategy is making a virtue out of necessity. Apple computers are a niche product, they lost the option of true mass marketting and big marketshare years ago. When the PC market exploded they chose to maintain their fat profit margins rather than maintaining or even expanding their market share - it's pretty clear that it was the wrong decision. They hauled in the cash for a while but they became more and more a niche player. At this point they're stuck in that niche. Cutting their margins to the bone wouldn't produce that many new customers.

The MP3 player market is a whole new ball game, and a second chance. Apple is again the market leader in an emerging market (just as they were in the long ago days of the Apple II). This time I think they are going to go for marketshare. They have to maintain the quality that people expect from the brand, and for that reason they're ever going to go for the very bottom of the bargain barrel. But if they can use superior industrial design/engineering and relationships with vendors to beat their competitors on price while still delivering high quality they are going to go for it.

Re:Aiming at the low end

[javatips]

If you can afford to buy enough songs to fill the extra 10G, you can surely afford a new iPod!

(I'm being generous with file size)

10G/7M = 1428 songs * .99$ = 1413.72$

Re:Aiming at the low end

[tapin]

The trick isn't buying enough to fill the extra 10G, it's buying enough that the initial 10G isn't enough.

Put another way, it's that first byte after 10G that's expensive. The rest is dirt cheap.

Re:Aiming at the low end

[Trurl's Machine]

What is so wonderful about iTunes?

Smart playlists. When you have few thousands songs in your pocket, organization of this library becomes the main issue - or you have to dig the iPod out of your pocket (backpack etc.) any time you want to change the damned album, as if you'd still use some last-century walkman. It's like the Internet search engine: even if you know that a given information is somewhere on the Web, the main question is can you find it quickly and easily.

iPod has a solution for that: it is able to store and modify many interesting meta-data about the songs and albums. It "knows" that this particular song was last played Thursday on 13:34. As far as I know, no existing software can handle this metadata as good as iTunes. With iTunes, creation of a smart playlist like "the songs whose genre is rock, my rating is at least four star, and they were last played at least a month ago, in random order" is a matter of few clicks. You can't get it manually managing your songs and playlists.

In my case, my iPod is often hidden somewhere under my clothes (e.g. in the internal pocket of my jacket) or even in a special "walkman compartment" of my trunk&co backpack. Taking it out and manual selection of a song is a hassle - I use the remote control to play, skip or change volume, but the actual song seletion is done by a smart playlist created on iTunes, executed by the iPod.

Re:Aiming at the low end

[spike hay]

Ok, I'll give you that, but (I don't exacty know what I am talking about here, so please feel free to enlighten me) isn't MP3 encoding done via the same algorighm/codec no matter who writes the wrapper?

Nope. The LAME encoder is different and far superior to other encoders. Different encoders use different psychoacoustic models to determin which parts to throw away. Quality varies greatly between encoders. There are terrible ones like Bladeenc and Xing, which have quality more on par with Real Audio, and superior encoders like LAME which have quality more on par with Ogg Vorbis.

LAME is the only good way to encode. Anything else will produce inferior MP3s.

Re:Aiming at the low end

[Octagon Most]

"What is so wonderful about iTunes? I don't want to use any program to transfer songs to my MP3 player. I want it to mount as an external drive so I can transfer any song, MP3 or otherwise, onto the player."

I'm not a heavy user of iTunes so I can't enumerate it's "wonderful" features, but I can address the issue of using it instead of manually dragging songs to a mounted drive. Maybe I am a freak for feeling this way, but I don't want anything to do with filesystems. I don't want to touch files, drag files, or otherwise manually manipulate files. I love opening iPhoto and having all my pictures there. I couldn't care less where or how they are physically stored. I just want to look at them, email them, or add them to my website. The program hides from me that which I do not want to deal with. I understand your, and others', desire for control, but many people (perhaps the majority of computer users) do not want to deal with dragging individual files onto a mounted drive. They (we) want playlists, synchronization, and integration with the iTunes Store. Your way works for you, but many people clearly like the way iTunes works.

Re:Aiming at the low end

[afidel]

iPod's may be mountable as Firewire drives but you can't just dump music to it. The iPod has a database that keeps track of all of the songs and playlists currently on the player. If you don't update the db then it's as if the songs never got transfered. Luckily the format is either open or easily reversed because there are programs like ephpod that can rebuild it.

Re:Aiming at the low end

[Triv]

If you don't care about the bookselling business stop reading now. :)

kinda like publishers who put out the hardcover for the the $30 crowd and then eight months later release a paperback for the $7 folks.

That analogy is absolutely correct and I applaud you for making it. However the specifics are a bit dated as to how the book market now functions.

It's true, that was the way the publishing industry worked a little over a decade ago, but things are slightly different now.

There used to be two different kinds of books - hardcovers (designed to take a beating) and mass markets (designed to be thrown away). Mass markets were approx. 1/3 the price of hardcovers.

But the publishers started to realize that there was another category of book buyer out there - people who wanted books to last but didn't want to pay hardcover prices. So the Trade Paperback was invented. Trades cost about half the price of a hardcover and are more sturdily constructed than mass markets.

Current books rarely hit the $7 price point you mentioned unless they're niche markets (sci fi, horror and romance in particular), they're INSANELY popular (Tom Clancy, Clive Cussler and the like) or they're classics (ie, in the public domain).

This isn't really a problem except that in the last few years book quality (the physical object, not the writing - that's a completely different rant) has decreased dramatically, so people are buying trade paper because of the illusion of permanence (and because they're less weight to tote around. Books are still primarily a portable medium). This feels kinda cheap to me.

Like I said, you weren't wrong by any means and the analogy still holds. Just being...well, a booknerd. :)

Triv

Re:Aiming at the low end

[Scudsucker]

Adobe Premiere and After Effects some good video editing solutions. Yes, they are expensive. But the money I save by buying a PC far outweighs the cost. So by using Premiere on a PC, I save over $1000 dollars in software and hardware costs. I really can't see why Apple is the better option here.

Riiight. The only way its going to be cheaper is if you warez Premiere and After Effects, as together they are over a thousand dollars.

$800 eMac + free iMovie = $800
$600 Dell + Premiere + AE = $1700

Hell, you could buy an eMac with a DVD burner for what you'd pay for Adobe's software alone.

Also, the Apple equivalent of Premiere, Final Cut Pro, costs $250 dollars more than Premiere.

Three words: Final Cut Express. Price? $100. Basically most of power of FCP, but without some of the filters that drive up the cost. So for another $100 over the cost of Premiere and After Effects, you can get an eMac with a DVD burner and FCE.

If you are thinking about iMovie, is not what I'd call a professional video editing tool. It's great for amateurs. But it is totally and wholly beaten out by open source windows video editing programs such as Virtual Dub Mod.

As far as Virtual Dub goes, it is an excelent tool - if you're recompressing or croping a single video and audio stream. However, if you are trying to re-arrange clips to make a video, iMovie will stomp all over Vdub. Unless your time is completely worthless, Vdub is just not going to cut it for any kind of video project that needs chronological editing, unless its very small.

So, in summary: Apple stomps all over the PC in video editing, at the low end, the high end, *and* on price. And there's still no PC product that compares to iMovie for how much it costs and what it does.

Mini Me?

[XxtraLarGe]

I'm sure Apple will tap Vern Troyer to promote the new mini iPod :-)

Re:Mini Me?

[Genady]

NO NO NO! Billy Boyd! Apple has to redeam the Pippin name in it's lineage. "The new iPod, hobbit sized." :: Cut to scene with Pip and Merry ::

Pip> Whatcha got there Merry?
Merry> The new MiniPod, 800 songs and it's mine, my prescious.
Pip> :: Sees a human pass with a regular iPod :: Wait. It comes in Pints? I'm getting one.

Re:Mini Me?

[the Man in Black]

You, sir, need to get yourself a job. That would be an EXCELLENT way to capitilize on the success of the trilogy, as well as push their new product.

Plus, Merry and Pippin kick ass.

Re:Mini Me?

[NewbieV]

...just like he and Yao Ming did for the Powerbooks

Re:Mini Me?

[calyphus]

The iPod's gonna look tiny in Yao's hand.

VAT

[stang7423]

I wonder if that price includes VAT. If it is so then the US price would drop to about $100. just food for though.

No announcement

[neverkevin]

there is no mention of it at their official News Page or their product page for the iPod.

Yeah, probably because Macworld expo is on the 6th, I would expect and announcement then.

Re:No announcement

[ankit]

True. But the article says:

"Apple has announced a cut-price mini version"

This appears to be a goof-up like what Time-Canada did a while back. This news should have been released on the 6th.

The Evening Standard?

[Alan Partridge]

They don't even understand LONDON, you can't expect them too understand APPLE.

If you're looking for NEWS in the Evening Standard, you're looking in the wrong fucking place.

Re:The Evening Standard?

[squiggleslash]

Too right. Remember when the Evening Standard blew their credibility completely by predicting 15.4" G5 PowerBooks all summer, with them even splashing "Apple Releases 1.8GHz 970-based Jaguar Notebook with 512M RAM, 120G HD" on their front page some time in June?

No, I always get my Apple rumours from reputable sources. Like The Guardian and The Independent.

Press Release

[Arc04]

I want to know how the Evening Standard know about it, without Apple releasing a press release. And if Apple have released a press release, then why isn't it listed on their site?

Maybe someone at the Evening Standard is a /. regular and just nicked it from the earlier story.

Re:Press Release

[ankit]

Its a cycle!

It all started with thinksecret posting about the rumored mini-ipods. Then came macrumors, which simply linked to thinksecret as their source. Then it was slashdot, which again linked to thinksecret. Then it was macrumors again, which said that it had more sources (they did not disclose them). And then some London newspapers picked up the rumors, and posted them as such. This becomes news on macrumors.com again (see page 2). And now we are back on slasldot.

wow! And it all started with _someone_ hinting a possibility to thinksecret!

This reminds me of a time when it was rumored that the President of India had died. Everyone was thoroughly convinced. Even BBC carried this story. The poor president was completely healthy and very much alive!

Probaby some fab time involved

[idiotnot]

Gotta ramp up the production before you make the announcement. I have a feeling that these will sell very quickly.

I'll be first in line

[Slowtreme]

Apple hasn't said anything official at all about Mini iPods, and usually they kick thier Legal team into action when "half true" Rumors hit the web. The idea that they have done nothing at all makes this seem like they have resigned to let the leak become publicity, or free advertising.

As much as I'd love to have a 20g iPod to hold all of my music on, I'd be very happy with a resonably priced (about $200) iPod that will hold 2-4gig of music. 256mb flash players just are not big enough for the price.

First "announced", then "expected to unveil"

[burgburgburg]

Interesting how something that is initially described as fait accompli is then described as "expected to unveil".

I'm not saying Apple isn't going to have them. I'm just saying this is another glorified rumor (or rumour since it's a UK site).

We all know how this will end.

[shumacher]

It's gonna look like heaven in thermoplastic, and everyone here is going to want one.

What makes no sense is the timing. When a mainstream site makes an assertion about this sort of thing Apple is usually within days of release. If that were the case, why not launch before christmas.

I don't think we'll see this for some time. Previous rumors put stripes and patterns on the case. I suspect we'll see a Pepsi branded model some time in Feburary.

Super keen idea we'll probably never see:
Use the printing technology used on the blue dalmation and flower power iMacs, and tie in with iPhoto to let buyers have their photos molded into the case of their mini-ipod, rather than just simple laser engraving.

Re:We all know how this will end.

[mccalli]

When a mainstream site makes an assertion about this sort of thing Apple is usually within days of release.

Job's keynote speech is January 6th.

If that were the case, why not launch before christmas.

Pure guess on my part, but I'd suggest in order to shift stock of their high-margin existing players. Happy to hear better ideas though if someone has them.

Cheers,
Ian

Re:We all know how this will end.

[the Man in Black]

If that were the case, why not launch before christmas.

Because they were busy selling regular iPods at $300-500 a pop. Clear out all that inventory, take the profit, then announce a new product at MacWorld. Simple profit maximization; a pre-Christmas announcement would have hurt current iPod sales as people demanded the Jr. rather than the big boy (which may or may not have been available). If they couldn't get their hands on one, they'd just wait until after Christmas. Meanwhile, iPods sit dusty and alone on the shelves. Post- you have enough time to ramp up production and meet demand. People that were going to buy an iPod already have one, so you're not taking a loss.

The people that are going to buy this (in DROVES) are the people that looked longingly at an iPod but were much too broke to buy one (read: ME and several million other people).

Re:We all know how this will end.

[Hollinger]

Another point is that I'm betting Apple wouldn't be able to keep up with demand if they started selling them. $100(ish) is a VERY important price point for lots of people. It's a heck of a lot easier to rationalize a $100 investment rather than a $300 investment. If such a machine is produced, it'll sell almost as quickly as the iTMS sold it's first tracks, if Apple releases it with a big enough splash.

Look at some of the past product releases (pick a keynote, any keynote): The product is announced, and ordered are taken immediately after the keynote. Orders for higher end models are backordered and "expected to ship in ____." Something very similar might have happened if Apple released this device over a month ago (actually it would have had to have been 2 months ago to get volume up to hit Black Friday and make holiday shipments, in all liklihood). It makes sense to release it now, since they get to couple this with the Pepsi Superbowl spots, and they get all year to roll up production, release a point update for the iPod, iTMS, and iTunes itself, letting the product reach critical mass (if it hasn't already) in time for *next* year's holiday season.

Of course I don't have the foggiest idea what I'm talking about! This is slashdot!

Re:We all know how this will end.

[gmhowell]

Are you that whipped, or does she also have to get your permission to get a new pair of shoes? :)

I'm that whipped.

*ahem*. rumour press.

[Amiga Lover]

Apple has announced hey? Despite not owning them, I remember when the press said apple has "announced" 68060 based macs. I remember when apple "announced" that their games machine was selling in the US market. I remember when they "announced" the release of a PPC 620 64-bit mac.

"announced" in quotes simply because the press want to get it right before anyone else, and throw guesses and suppositions around regarding beta or even non existent hardware.

Now it is a matter of time...

[Guano_Jim]

Before Jobs the iWhite sends out his Uruk-Hai to crush the rumor sites.

It's kind of... a bummer

[Muddie]

I went to update the firmware on my iPod, and... like, it went all 'beep-beep-beep-beep-beep' and started to smoke. That was kind of... a bummer. So I check my funds and realize that I don't have the cash to get a new one because I bought my week's worth of... herbs. So, I go to the store and see that they released this iPodJr, and I was all like... cool. So, I was able to still listen to Jerry while I was studying. That's like... cool.

I'm Ellen Feiss, and I have an iPodJr.

Re:It's kind of... a bummer

[the Man in Black]

I'm Ellen Feiss, and I have an iPodJr.

I think it's great the kind of things we as a community will take and run with. Ellen, the Star Wars kid, Libby Hoeler (oh, don't pretend like it was just me).

Now, let's start a PAC. Who's with me?

No way

[gotpaint32]

It can't be a true Apple product if you don't have to sacrifice your first born for it... I just don't believe it. I may eat these words later, but for a 115USD a 1-2gb player that is smaller than the current ipod? Flash memory is certainly not that cheap, and as for hard disks, even a used microdrive goes for more than that. Start throwing in Li-ion cells, LCDs, apple's usual cosmetic frills and you've got $$$ just piling up. Buying in bulk will surely reduce costs but what kind of profit are we talking here catering to the low end, this seems too unlike apple?

Re:No way

[Kenja]

Well the Rio Nitrus is close. Its 1.2GB for around 200$. I do think the 100$ price tag is going to be way off, but it should still be close to what Rio offers.

Re:No way

[akgunkel]

As many others have pointed out, enjoy the taste of your words.

"The 1.5 GB drive, which has been in volume manufacturing since mid-April, sells for $65 in quantities of 10,000. The company is aiming for $50, Magenis said. By contrast, existing standard 1-inch Microdrives from IBM sell for $219 at retail or more, while 1GB flash cards go for around $200."

Re:No way

[MrAngryForNoReason]

I have a feeling a mini ipod could be subsidized by the larger ipods in an effort to get more users for the itunes music store. Get those users hooked on it and later on they may consider the larger player or at least continue using the music store.

I really don't think apple would be selling a new player at a loss in order to make people use iTunes again at a loss, so they can have a slightly higher chance of selling more iPods. It could increase sales of iPods when people upgraded, but not by anywhere near enough to make it a valid strategy.

Rumors?

[Ianoo]

I'm sure there's some truth in this rumor, but isn't it possible that some "hack journalist" at the Evening Standard read these rumors (maybe even at Slashdot, if so HI!) and is just giving them more credence than they should receive so he or she scores "a scoop". It wouldn't be the first time a journo has been duped in this manner!

No mention of actual capacity or media...

[drayzel]

Dang.

I really want to know what sort of media they are using and how much!

Lets see, 800 songs, average of around 3 minutes a song, about 1MB per minute for average quality works out to be about 2400MB. Refactor figures for the obligatory "Best Case Scenario" marketing droid math that works out to be a 32MB Flash player containing short songs recorded at 32kbit/s!

In reality it sounds like a 1.5BG player using AAC to fit 800 songs on it. That's a definite buy at that price! BUt if it sounds to good to be true, chances are it is.

Or maybe it is a simple Flash player with a compact flash card? Inserting 2GB CF card would allow for the capacity for 800 songs yet still keep the initial price of the player low.

~Z

Re:No mention of actual capacity or media...

[myrdred]

They are probably using the same scale as for the rest of their product line. So 40GB is 10,000 songs, that means 4mb a song, so 800 would be 3.2GB, or more probable a round 3GB.

Also announced...

[Mr. Darl McBride]

I was more intrigued by the announcement of the "iPod Micro," which supposedly makes even -more- music available than the regular iPods. It's also got some kind of wireless technology built in, which is something that people have been speculating about forever. What's odd though is that it's not 802.11b/g or Bluetooth, but rather something called "frequency modulation" in an entirely different spectrum.

They said the memory technology was called "station presets" -- anyone know what this means?

Great Price Point?

[rocketjam]

When the original iPods came out, people complained that the price was too high and no one would buy one. The iPod's success shows there are a lot of people with more disposable income than the critics thought. Still, $300 - $400 is more money than many people could afford/justify for an mp3 player. A $100 price point would make it much more attractive to middle-income people. I think I can probably rationalize the purchase of a $100 mp3 player to myself ;-) (especially an iPod).

Re:iPod for exercise and iTunes rules?

[bwalling]

I just got an 10GB iPod for Christmas and I was curious how the iPod holds up on a treadmill or a jog around the track?

Im also curious about how iTunes works? If i download some songs on my laptop and can move/play them on my home computer as well?

Your question will probably be better answered here.

Re:Hard Drive

[kevinvee]

The Rio Nitrus is 1.5gb and has sold for as low as $150. The price on these mini hard drives is dropping fast as IBM and others continue to refine the manufacturing process. I doubt Apple will earn as much margin as they are on the higher ends, but these Jr's will look attractive to buyers such as myself who don't need a 40 gig brick.

Re:Ogg Vorbis support

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure that Apple will miss the business of you and the five other people that aren't buying an iPod for this reason.

Re:Ogg Vorbis support

[Anonymous Coward]

I have encoded my entire collection of CDs in ogg by choice and have been waiting until good hardware players for ogg were available before I purchased one.

Sounds like you're an idiot. Enjoy your wait.

Re:iPod for exercise and iTunes rules?

[psxndc]

I got the armband holder from Marware and used to (before school started) run several miles a day with no problems. Watch it when it rains though because the one time I went when there was a lot of humidity in the air, at the end of the run the iPod sort of seized up for a few minutes. It reset itself and was fine, but that was a pretty scary few minutes.

psxndc

Re:Ogg Vorbis support

[weez75]

You can play Ogg files in iTunes with a plugin:

http://www.illadvised.com/~jordy/

It's not native but it works. I don't want to get into the debate about file formats but I will tell you the experience with an iPod is far superior to any other player I've tried--perhaps good enough to switch formats.

Daily Telegraph

[scifience]

According to this post on MacNN, this was also on the front page of the Daily Telegraph in London, which adds a little more credibility to the story.

# Songs

[_aa_]

I dislike the "# Songs" metric (1GB = 200 songs). I understand that a portion of the demographic they're targeting might not know what a megabyte represents, but undoubtedly it's a small percentage of their target market. 800 Songs means little to me, as many songs I listen to are 10 or 15 minutes long. Some songs might be no more than 30 seconds. I also may want to store some songs at higher or lower bitrates than others. Given all the variables that vary within a "Song", I'd rather discuss the exact data capacity in Bytes.

1.44mb Floppy = 0.3 songs
250mb Zip Disk = 50 songs
650mb CD = 130 songs
4.7gb DVD = 940 songs

PICTURES

[williwilli]

There hasn't been any official announcement yet; MacWorld keynote is January 6. Rumors are circulating of new, smaller iPods with 2gb and 4gb capacities and a lower price. There are some mockups and pictures here.

music, video, games, recipes, forums -- earth2willi.com!

An iPodjr isn't gonna be that great...

[g_adams27]

This sounds like a good thing, but I heard that they're going to replace the regular buttons with chiclet buttons, and you'll have to attach bulky sidecars to it if you want any kind of expansion capability. Plus the headphones will only communicate with the main unit via a poorly designed IR port.

On the plus side, I heard they'll have some great games for it, like "Jumpman", "Zyll" and "King's Quest" by some company called "Sierra On-Line".

This just in...

[computerme]

Apple will own the MP3 market in few months:

http://www.macobserver.com/article/2003/12/30.1. sh tml

As soon as apple ships the ipod jr at the price points suggested then they will probably take all 5 top selling spots on the list. Not many people are going to be buying a "iriver" with 128mbs when they can get a iPod that holds 800 songs for the same price AND get the itunes music store AND the ID of ipods AND the ease of use that apple gives them... ...

The 10GB Apple iPod ($299) reportedly edged out the cheaper 128MB Digitalway ($140) in overall sales, with the remainder of the iPod models also being well represented:

1. 10GB iPod ($299)
2. 128MB Digitalway ($140)
3. 20GB iPod ($399)
4. 128MB iRiver ($119.99-$139.99))
5. 40GB iPod ($499)

Re:This just in...

[computerme]

I think this is a case of the "its not the size of the boat...its the motion of the ocean" ;)

First there is brand name. Its almost like kleenex now. Second i guess people are looking at the overal consumer experience. The others just can't match the ease of use and the itunes music store.

When pepsi gives away 100 million itunes songs next month, the brand awareness is going to peak out somewhere around the stratosphere....

"more then normal people own"?

[nurb432]

Jobs statement ( if true ) is rather silly, as I own enough to fill more then 40gb easily.. ( over 500 cds + countless LP's from the 70s/80s ) I cant imagine I'm that much different then many ( especially if you can drop 500 bucks on an Ipod )

However 2gb is more than useable on the road.. as who needs to *carry* around more then 30 some odd albums at a time..

If they really do hit the streets @ 100 USD count me in for 2 ( in case apple is reading /. )

Rio Has Beat Them To It

[PoitNarf]

The Rio Nitrus seems like it's very similar to whatever this iPod Jr. is going to be.

Here are some specs on the Nitrus:
Dimensions: 3" X 2.4" X 0.6"
Weight: 2.0oz
Battery: 16-hour continuous playback on internal Li Ion battery

I myself own a Rio Karma and have been loving it ever since Christmas day. There are worthy alternatives to the iPod and the iPod Jr. as well it seems.

link to story....Re:Daily Telegraph

[bucklesl]

Bypass forum. Go directly to the story. iPod buyers singing the blues

iCarPod

[vida]

This has to be next obvious step to take. There are no decent, fairly priced, good looking, easy to install mp3 players for the car.

If not a full player, maybe just an iPod dock w/ a led that you could permanently install in the car, and just plug (insert) your iPod in.

Just wonder how much time it will take...

-Facun.

Rumor sites?

[H0NGK0NGPH00EY]

Rumors of a new, smaller, "iPodJr" have been floating around the Rumor Sites for a few weeks (as well a here at Slashdot).

What I find amusing is that the above sentence implies that Slashdot is not a rumor site itself. Heh.

Re:Ogg Vorbis support

[Nexum]

[Ashen-faced shock]

Oh my God, how could Jobs and Apple have overlooked this? Man without Ogg support they are pretty much finished that's for sure, say goodbye to the reign of the iPod folks.

Why didn't you write and tell them that they were gonna miss out on your business? At least we stood a chance of saving them then.

Still, it's their fault I suppose, if they choose to ignore such an industry BEHEMOTH as Ogg Vorbis, what chance could they ever stand.

Seriously though, nobody wants to hear you whine self-righteously about a situation you actively chose and worked at to get yourself in. I'm sure Ogg Vorbis is great, it's not the codec I have a problem with, it's with people who whine about products not supporting it when, to be honest, there isn't the market pressure there.

It's like me going and running a RISC-OS machine, and then *EVERY* time someone releases software for the Mac or PC I chime in going "Pfft, no RISC-OS support? Oh, my, God. Well, looks like Microsoft/Apple/Macromedia/Adobe won't be getting my business then. [Nose-In-Air]"

In summary, Ogg Vorbis may be great, however there is little market pressure for supporting it, so stop whining.

Doesn't really make sense to me.

[Sans_A_Cause]

If your higher capacity iPods are selling like mad (and they are) then why cut into those sales and profits by introducing a cheaper model? I don't think Apple makes much money off iTunes, so the % profit off the iPod is where the money is, and a smaller HD model would bring in fewer profits. Maybe it would make sense when the demand for the iPod dropped, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

What Strikes Me as Funny

[Spencerian]

...is that while everyone is salivating (justifiably) at the possibility of lower-cost iPods, that no one seems to be wondering much about the other new hardware Apple may announce at the Macworld keynote on 1/6, especially an updated, faster, cheaper G5, and God knows what else that the CEO may surprise us with.

Yep, a good year for Jobs, and good year for Apple and Pixar as well. Give the man a cookie.

think number of songs, not capacity

[Anonymous Coward]

from an insider: say, hypothetically, that apple had developed a significantly better (albeit lossy) compression scheme and coupled with a good sized compact flash type storage device were able to squeeze 800 songs onto much less than 2-4GB.. say 1GB ;) - remember, you heard it here first..

What will we lose?

[truffle]

I seriously doubt the $115 iPod will look exactly like the 10gb model, but with a smaller hard drive (and form factor). It makes sense that the $115 iPod will lack some of the features that the higher end models have. This will better enable apple to upsell people to higher end iPods, and believe me, they want to do that.

So what could we potentially lose from the iPod?
- Firewire. It seems unlikely apple would cut their technology from a product, but this is something obvious to cut. These cheapo iPods are going to be heavily focussed on iTunes users, which are largely windows based. USB could be good enough.
- Built in rechargable battery. A good way to lower production cost is to make the unit require conventional batteries.
- The unit interface. The iPod's screen and dial for selecting music are great. A good way to cut production cost would be to remove these features.

In summary, my expectation is that apple will design their iPod jrs without many of the features which we have come to expect from iPod products. This will lower their production costs, and provide additional motivation for people to buy higher priced units.

Apple doesn't need to provide any of these features to sell iPod Jrs, the larger storage capacity, iTunes, and apple chic design will ensure these things just fly off the shelves.

Obligatory link

[michaelmalak]

Banana Jr. 2000

Re:iPod for exercise and iTunes rules?

[Hollinger]

As for iTunes, you can copy the songfiles from machine to machine if you like (I currently have my iTunes library mirrored on three machines), as long as you simply click "authorize this computer" when it prompts you and enter your Applestore password to play encrypted files.

As for streaming, you still have to authorize the computer to play back your encrypted (purchased) content, but the files stay put, removing redundancy and, if you disable the Windows firewall (or open up whatever ports) it automagically plays nicely with any other iTunes installs running (on Windows OR Mac). Your ripped songs will stream without authorization. You only have to authorize a machine to play protected content. This has been EXTREMELY useful when on the Univ. of Oklahoma campus network...

By the way, if you're feeling like pushing your luck, you might go bug whoever gave you the iPod, and tell them "I got this shiny new device, but it's empty! I need an iTunes Allowance to start filling it up and actually using it." Just an idea... ;-)

Unpossible

[alexjohns]

Me and the other main geek here at work have been going round-and-round with this for a couple of days. There's no way this is true, much as I might wish it were. It's very simple: What flash medium is out there in the 1GB-4Gb range that costs less than $100? If there is one, it's impossible to find on the web.

What are they doing, repurposing all those old 1-4GB hard disks that people are tossing out? Have they invented some new cheaper flash memory? If so, that's major. A lot more than IpodJrs are gonna come out of that if that's true. Somebody want to help me out here? Anyone? Bueller?

Re:any color you like, as long as it's black

[Hollinger]

Out of curiousity, have you ever looked at the guts of, say, a laptop vs. a desktop? How about actually opening up an iPod? How good are you with a screwdriver and a magnifying glass? Furthermore, where are you going to find the drives capable of fitting in these devices? The reason these are not upgradable is that each device is carefully custom-designed (thanks Johnathon!) pushing the absolute limit of "how much stuff can we cram in this tiny space." If you wanted an upgradable device, you can certainly build one with off the shelf parts -- it's called a PC.

Re:iPod for exercise and iTunes rules?

[tetsuji]

What about bouldering? If I take say an 8 foot fall onto a pad, is it likely to mess it up? I'd be delighted to be able to drown out the crappy techno that they insist on playing at the gym. Would a flash-based player would be better for this particular case? I'd prefer to have the flexibility of the IPod

Re:any color you like, as long as it's black

[Doc Ruby]

I've got a half-dozen minitowers here in my office that I've re/built over the years, as well as several "up on blocks in the yard". There's a couple of notebooks I've kept on lifesupport over the years by netbooting, running "headless", etc. after scavenging them for parts or pushing them over the edge with overzealous experiments inside their cases. I remember building my first phone, with a rotary dial, and hooking it up to my stereo as a mic'ed speakerphone. Apple is getting the HDs from somewhere, as are the even more COTS-oriented MP3 players, not to mention TiVOs. You give a reason there's no upgrade to the edge-cutting new devices. But is that reason good enough? There's no privilege for being a HW engineer, when the component industry is globally competitive in every sales channel, and so many of us are good with a screwdriver and a magnifying glass, and even at publishing HOWTOs on the Web.

Re:Hard Drive

[h0mer]

I think it works more like this...

miniPod to get you buying songs from iTMS.
Buy a bunch of songs from iTMS, until they no longer fit on the miniPod.
Buy an iPod to be able to fit all the music.
Buy a G5 because you've taken a hit of that Mac crack and can't turn back.
World domination.

Re:Obligatory iRiver post...

[rtilghman]

My Rio Karma has 20gb, cost the same as your iRiver iGP-100, and is both smaller and lighter. Oh, and did I mention its not only OGG but FLAC compatible? -rt

Re:What kind of storage?

[weave]

Someone on macslash.org was speculating it could be cheaper DRAM memory. Basically, when the battery goes out, you lose contents. But big deal. With USB 2 or firewire, you plug it in, it charges and redownloads the songs in no time. No need for expensive flash memory.

Price points and predictions

[amper]

So, I think that by this time next year (and hopefully that actually means about 10 months from now, so Apple can actually get the damn things out the door *BEFORE* the Holiday season...), we'll actually get the iPod that we should have had in the first place?

Don't get me wrong, I love the iPod, and I actually have an original 5GB unit (which I did *not* pay full price for).

As we all know, HDDs don't go down in price, they just get bigger, because it costs about the same amount of money to produce a unit regardless of capacity. That's why the newer iPods with bigger drives cost the same as the original while having double the capacity. The iPod would be cheaper if Apple could find a way to build it cheaper while still maintaining the design goals.

So I'm thinking that if we see a ~2GB ePod/iPod Jr. at MWSF next week, then by next year, we should be seeing a ~5GB unit for the same price. By that time, Toshiba should have ramped up the new 1" drives to double the capacity or more.

I do think the predictions of ~100USD are maybe a bit optimistic. For what you're getting, it sounds to me like ~150-200USD is more likely. As in $149 for a 1GB model, and $199 for a 2GB...then next year we might see 2GB and 5GB models at the same prices, while the iPods step up even further in features and capacity at *their* same price points.

Personally, I'd have no trouble justifying $199 for a 2GB iPod, as long as it retains the same feature set as the current iPods do. (Read: FireWire drive capability).

Of course, what I'd really like to see, as a musician, is a multi-track iPod Studio about the size of a VHS tape with the inputs of a Digidesign Mbox (mmm...Focusrite). Since Apple owns eLogic, this shouldn't be too hard. Think of a cross between a Digidesign Mbox and a Digi 002 (FireWire), only made by Apple.

Remember...

[SuperKendall]

When the first iPod came out, it actually cost less than buying just the HD directly from Toshiba!!! So looking at the new smaller Toshiba drive cost might very well lead to a good estimate as to the price point a small iPod might arrive at.

I think Apple can cut some amazing deals based on projected volume of orders.

Yes, the ad goes something like this

[SuperKendall]

"Over Fifty station presets bringing you a total of twenty songs!! Get your iPod Micro today! Using our patented adNausium (TM) tecnology never before has music been repeated like this!"

Waa! I need a 100+GB iPod, not a teeny tiny one...

[crovira]

Oh woe is me. Apple is heading in the wrong direction.

I just, sort of, inherited about 4 cubic feet of CD and 8 cubic feet of vinyl.

I'm going to be rip-ping CDs for weeks and media shifting the vinyl for months.

This is on top of my own collections which have already been rip-ped.

My 160GB FireWire drive is about to start bulging at the sides. Okay, I exagerate... Backing this beast up will requires DVDs (good thing I got a burner :-)

Re:Ogg Vorbis support

[TokyoBoy]

Apology accepted.

BTW, IMHO, slashdot is neither the place for confessions or therapy however, I do wish you the best of luck with your issues.

Junior is not necessarily smaller

[nanimo]

Many readers seem to think that the new iPod will be smaller. My guess is, it will only be smaller in capacity and price, not size. It is hard to imagine a 2GB capacity without a hard drive. And a microdrive unit is not going to be this cheap. So I would guess it will be the same size and possibly more flimsy, lower quality. That's all.

Re:Why the hell would anyone buy this?

[SengirV]

You are seriously out of touch with reality. Use me as an example

I have approx 2.5 gigs of music. My collection is pretty stagnant. I do not want a 10+gig iPod because I will never fill it with music. I already have a portable firewire drive so I don't really need the iPod for that. I can not justify paying $300+ for a super walkman, but I would pay $100-$150 for one.

Also, I know my neices and nephews will ALL get one of these $100 miniPods(if true). They currently do now own a single iPod between them. Sounds like a lot of sales/desires met with this miniPod.

Re:What's next? Mouse Jr?

[TheRaven64]

They also plan on releasing a on-button keyboard with a big red `do what I mean' button in the middle.

iPod is already #1 #2 #3 on Amazon

[afantee]

Currently, all top 3 best selling jukeboxes are iPod . Would the mini iPod pushes everything else off the top 5?

Re:iPod is already #1 #2 #3 on Amazon

[afantee]

There is definitely something wrong with the Amazon pages. For instance, your link shows Nomad Zen 40GB at #11 and no iPod in top 100, but All Jukeboxes places iPod at #1 and #2, while Jukeboxes up to 15GB has 7 iPod models in the top 18 best sellers.