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Debian World Domination Plan
An anonymous reader writes "Guillem Jover announced his plans to take over the non-Debian world and released a tool which converts in
runtime any distribution to Debian. It does not convert in the sense
of mapping all previous installed packages to the Debian counterparts,
but installs a base system or tarball and cleans traces from the
previous distribution."
Red Hat is irrelevant... Mandrake is irrelevant... RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!
... will upgrade Windows XP to Debian 4.0.
if this were run on an existing Debian system. Hmmm...
Someone's bound to install it! Resistance is futile.....
That works without a modchip...
Finally something that would pave the way and help all those that are "stuck" with RedHat servers.
As Redhat have EOL'd support for their boxed sets at the end of December, they could have had a lot of converts. Now most of those people will have gone for RHAS or Fedora.
This is a way to bring a useful installer Debian.
UHM... correct me if I'm wrong, but I think KDE works pretty well in Debian/unstable? I fail to see your point.
-pug
From the code:
/etc/debian_version ]
[...]
if [ -e
then
if [ "$DISTRO" = unknown ]; then
error 1 "You already have a Debian system"
[...]
The next stage will be to engineer anti-microsoft nano machines (one could call them a vaccine) that will systematically convert all MS computers into Debian computers.
If the user gets upset over the change, he too will be converted into a Finnish Linux geek.
Still #1 -- Lonely Gay Geek
Debian's a fine distribution, but I doubt many people would take kindly to having this tool applied to a system that has been configured and running for any amount of time. If it's just going to install a base system, I'll just install a NEW system with Debian.
Show me a tool that converts portage or rpm data and creates a working Debian equivalent and I'll be impressed.
This doesnt accomplish anything more than wiping and starting over...
"Oh my God. This is terrible. This is the end of my Presidency. I'm fucked."; ~ Donald J. Trump
Then as a migration tool it's pretty limited.
/home and /data and /specified intact).
It would be fantasic to be able to hit a button, have something read the RPM database and automagically reinstall a APT based system (leaving
It's not fantasic to replace the kernel and leave you with a right royal mess of apps that can't be maintained, or worse still nuke everything so it doesn't work right.
This is a first step, which is cool, but it looks like it needs extending a bit to gain some practical application. Rather like the depenguinator (script to remove linux and install BSD) its a cool toy with little real application as of yet.
Beep beep.
Microsoft has had this for years: it's called fdisk...
You make it sound like Debian is a single entity with a single mind. Last I checked there was no official statement about KDE, just a bunch of people who were tired of upstream not using sane packaging policies.
FWIW, I think most of that's over now - I think KDE's even in a releasable state. New people took over when the old maintainer gave up in disgust.
I tried Debian last year and got as far as the installer at which point it would let me proceed no further, despite my best efforts, patience, reading of effing manuals and trying different versions. This further confirmed my commitment to Slackware. If they spent time fixing their installer, they wouldn't need to write a tool to assimilate other boxes.
Stick Men
Well, it's a simple 12KiB shell script, nothing much to see there. It's well written and it's a nice idea, though.
I would wait a couple releases before using it in a real environment though... hotswapping releases is a very tricky matter, and can screw up majorly your computer, expecially if it's done via a script.
My Stack Overflow user
Great...just waiting for someone to start combining all of these OS/distro converters with a worm.
Welcome to the OS Wars of '04. You never know what you'll boot. Debian? BSD? Windows 3.11?
We are apt of borg. RPM is futile. You will be dpkg'ed.
You should use AdiumX on your Mac.
IIRC It was originally intended to convert a redhat installation in a server where the provider would only install redhat.
I really hate this kind of atitude.. I use GNU/Linux for many years now and used from Red Hat to Mandrake, from Slackware to Conectiva and now I focus more on Debian and Kurumin - and I have always faced this kind of atitude of "slack is for real men, the others are for sissy" or "use Gentoo or continue to lame". That is just plain and simple BULLSHIT!! (sorry for the cursing, but I think it's the only word that really fits into this case). There are numerous distribuitions with all kinds of package control systems, configurations and config-tools, diferent aplications, packages, and so on and so forth. The thing is, in my humble opition, there isn't anything like "a lamer linux" and a "hacker linux". GNU/Linux is simply GNU/Linux - and I have and always had the opinion that the person makes the system, not the way around. (thou many like to use Slack because it is "l33t" - go figure!) So, my final note is: Everyone has diferent tastes and needs, and has it's own way he likes to use his own computer so there isn't anything like "Mandrake rox and Debian sux" - just that for some people Mandrake is better, and for others Debian is the best choise (and so forth)!!! GNU/Linux is, after all, all about choise - so why curse and bring down others that choose diferent from us??
Speaking as a debian user for many years:
They do have a stable, modern distribution. It's called "testing". The not-so modern "stable" distribution is a dream tho.. You could drive a 15 ton tank through it and it'd still stay up. I've been running it on server (in the wild) for more than 2 years now with nary a problem. It's easy to maintain and has everything I need no more than an apt-get away. No recompilation, no searching for dependencies.. unlike some other distributions I've used.
I wish everything was that easy.
(I was only an egg, but then I cracked)
So, if I use this script, can I become one of the overlords?
// file: mice.h
#include "frickin_lasers.h"
It seems that people are moving to another Linux distribution if you can read between lines in the following statement:r /corporate/2446
http://www.mandrakesoft.com/company/press/pr?n=/p
Anyway, it's certainly not a surprise: my feeling is that Mandrake is the Linux distribution the most close to Debian in its spirit. It's more friendly and offers more new features though.
NetBSD counts anything that requires a different kernel as an architecture, whereas Debian counts anything that requires a different userspace as an architecture. If you use the same terminology in both cases, the numbers work out pretty even.
Oh well, let's just hope that I can make it through the day without anyone noticing. Then I'll be basking on the beach in So.Cal for a week. :)
I know god exists. I read it on the internet, so it must be true.
I think the KDE problems have already been dropped years ago. What they need to drop to get to the desktop is:
1) there installer, it simply requires far too much manual tweaking to get from a first install to a useable system, other distro are far better here. If Knoppix takes a minute to boot and be useable and Debian multiple hours up to days, something is seriously wrong.
2) there 'stable' concept, it just doesn't make sense to have all stuff crunched into one gigantic package and call it 'stable'. Stability isn't a gloabl issue, but very often a per package one, ie a new KDE or Gimp can often be way more stable than the stuff that you find in a Debian stable, but it will never get included in there, since stable dosn't get any updates at all beside security fixes. This often leads to having packages in stable that are far less stable than what you can get from unstable. 'stable' should mean having a stable system, not being stuck with the same programm versions for multiple years.
jadams@fuzball:~$ apt-cache search kde | wc -l
580
jadams@fuzball:~$
Hmmm.... looks like it's there to me. I don't really use it but it's there.
jadams@fuzball:~$ apt-cache policy kde
kde:
Installed: (none)
Candidate: 4:2.2.25
Version Table:
4:3.1.2 0
500 http://http.us.debian.org sid/main Packages
4:2.2.25 0
500 http://http.us.debian.org woody/main Packages
990 http://http.us.debian.org sarge/main Packages
jadams@fuzball:~$
Yeah even looks supported.
there installer, it simply requires far too much manual tweaking to get from a first install to a useable system, other distro are far better here
/complaint
Their, not there.
I for one like the Debian installer. My current testing/unstable system was installed from the first Woody CD - I just installed the base, no extra packages. Then I could just pick and choose whatever I liked from there. This is really useful if you just want to put together a small, clean server with nothing superfluous. I'd feel very uncomfortable settling for one of eg. Redhat's predefined installation choices. I would feel less in control, and it really wouldn't save me any time anyway. A few minutes perhaps.
there 'stable' concept, it just doesn't make sense
Their, not there.
Damn right it doesn't make sense! stable really borders on being useless. The release cycle is just too long to be of much relevance. And as you said, older software isn't necessary more stable, and could well be worse.
Unfortunately this filters up to unstable as well. Debian's 'X Strike Force' hasn't got 4.3.0 into unstable yet. 4.3.0 was released in February 2003. It might not even get into unstable before 4.4.0 comes out! Now that's a long time.
IMHO Debian needs to cut back on the number of supported architectures and not be so tolerant of packages with bugs that are 100's of days old marked against them.
In the latest poll amonst KDE developers Debian was the favoured distro. 25% total.
If a first you don't succeed, your a programmer...
I too, was a loyal Red Hat user until they started messing with KDE. So, I came on Slashdot and read a comment where someone was saying Mandrake was "Red Hat Lite". So, I gave Mandrake 9.0 a try, and I've since upgraded to 9.1 (will upgrade to 9.2 soon), and I've not looked back.
Knoppix is also an amazing distro, if you only ever need it for a system recovery disk then it's still worth the time and bandwidth to grab it.
I'd recommend starting with those two, and I will mention that here on slashdot Debian and Gentoo are also extremely popular, and SuSe and Slackware also have vocal fans.
But - check out http://www.linuxiso.org and see what all they have.
Hope this helps!
NetBSD you say?
Guess what? There's Debian/[GNU/]NetBSD!
My english is sow-sow. Sowhat?
The attitude of "turn services off and you don't need a firewall" is wrong.
The problem with the server breakins amplifies this.
Either debian is strictly for techs, or its not.
If not, debian needs a simple firewall for all installation scenarios. Not including a firewall is malpractice. More than one firewall option is no excuse.
Adding a firewall application after an install is no good either. And it is too late.
A simple firewall front end needs to be included in every possible setup situation, from unstable to testing to stable, from plain vanilla, to knoppix, to damnsmalllinux.
Not providing firewall protection from the start shows that the debian project suffers from tunnel vision. They fail to see a problem, and fail to fix it because of this.
This would finally be a good reason to make a beneficial worm. Think of all the problems that would arise from making everything Debian. The anarchy that ensues would somehow create jobs outside of INDIA and I could get off of unemployment doing IT work.
Where do I sign up?
a slut did tulsa
As long as it doesn't try to automatically install and run every time a redhat 9 user accesses gnu.org or debian.org, I'm not worried.
4.3 isn't in unstable because of cross-platform compatibility issues. Every person using Sid out there knows they can get XFree86 4.3 from Debian Experimental for x86 and it works great.
Now, can you mention another package in a similar situation?
Debian stable is undoubtedly the best distro to put on a server. Every single package or combination of them has already been tested. I have yet to see anything that doesn't work on stable, or anything whose debconf script would set up perfectly.
That said, Debian Stable's target is obviously *not* the desktop.
My english is sow-sow. Sowhat?
Just like the instant BSD thing that was posted a couple of weeks ago.
Nice to see it extended beyond BSD to other systems.
Now all we need is a win32 virus to initiate 'upgrading' to your choice of *nix flavor.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Debian used to snub KDE, alright. Thing is, they no longer do. So cut them some slack, who cares what they used to do and say as long as they've changed and improved. Don't blame the current distro for how it used to be managed.
/., I found that as you mature, you eventually reach a point where you're tired of fiddling with stuff all day long, and end up only using stuff that Just Works the way YOU want. In that regard, Debian+KDE is pretty much a killer combo.
In fact, if Debian keeps improving that way, it may very well become a strong contender for the desktop, which would be a Really Good Thing. While we may be a much of geeks here on
(NB: Nope, I don't currently use Deb on my desktops, but if it keeps its current trend I may well switch eventually.)
-- B.
This sig does in fact not have the property it claims not to have.
Oh, wait.. the second link goes to hadrons.org... Forget what I just said.
with competition like this ...
Stable does make sense to people running things on real servers doing real work that requires their apps to keep working. Which means not only known to work software but a stable API across those softwares.
Sigh, when will people remember that it's Debian who does most of the major porting of XFree86 to other platforms other than x86. Personally last time I tried 4.3.0 I kept getting lockups that required a reboot when I played a file using mpg123 in a terminal. Also other odd but not as critical bugs.
If Debian doesn't support all of the archs that it does who will? Not everyone out there is running x86 and those that don't aren't second class citizens just because they're not running what a majority of other people are.
*shrug*
What is wrong with that? If I don't have any services listening, how are you going to connect to my machine to attack? Nope sorry, I don't use outlook express or IE on my gentoo box :)
Today, we salute you, Mister Production-Random-Shell-Script-Runner...
* because you've earned it.
(Mister Production-Random-Shell-Script-Runneeeerrrrrr...
Your ineptitude with your daily systems administration tasks means that we have plenty of server downtime and lost data...
(OohoOOoho data all gooonneee...)
Don't take it personally, we all know that you'd be out on your ass in a minute, if you weren't the boss's son...
(WOOohooOhhoHh kickbacks from the big maaannnn...)
So crack open an ice-cold Bud Light, Mister Production-Random-Shell-Script-Runner...*ksschtt!
(Reeeeaall American heeerroooooessss...)
But this is where the whole stable thing comes in, the other branches (testing, unstable) don't have a release schedule per se. Packages are released when they're ready across all the archs. But with stable IIRC all the packages have to be ready for all the archs before release. And the only serious people using stable are those who are putting it on servers, which (I'm taking a wild guess) probably has a more non x86 ratio that those running testing/unstable on non-servers. So I'm sure the non-x86 archs are more appreciated there than in testing/unstable.
*shrug*
A lot of people say they hate Microsoft because they say its on a mission of world domination.
... in the sense of becoming really populiar ... who would have thunk? Of course, GNU/Linux will never truly dominate anything, as dominion implies restriction of the freedom and choice of others, which is something a free, GPLed operating system can never do, by design.)
Linus has been talking about world domination for 10 years.
[...]
So when its microsoft, people get antsy, but when its linux or debian, world domination is ok ?
Is that because
1) linux+debian are "inherently" good, and microsoft is inherently bad?
2) people are hypocritical and don't think more than about 8 inches infront of them
3) some other reason im missing..
1 and 3 are the correct answers.
3: Humor is a difficult concept I know, but try to follow along. Linus has been talking about "world domination" as a joke, not as a serious agenda. Any reading of his comments, in context, should make this abundantly clear (as should the historical context in which those of us using Linux in the early days circa 1993 never expected it to have the success it has had today).
which leads us to
1: Microsoft really is about world domination, and has a tremendously long track record of anti-competative behavior as a convicted monopolist to drive that point home. Microsoft really is about denying people choice, and has every intention of eradicating any viable alternative to their monopoly. Linux (even an arrogant distribution like Debian) has always been about choice, and Debian's occasional arrogance aside, this script's description as a "world domination utility" is almost certainly tongue in cheeck (c.f. "humor") and not meant seriously. In other words, yes, Microsoft (as defined by their own behavior) is Evil, and Linux (as defined by the behavior of its community) is generally Good.
And I say that as one who uses Gentoo and will never go back to Debian (ie. one who should "feel offended" if in fact I took this seriously, which I do not). It is a clever tool with a funny name based on an old, old joke, made all the funnier for having become a possibility (GNU/Linux really could "dominate" the world
If MS released the "Linux Upgrade Kit" that put whatever SKU of windows you wanted on the box, people would be furious.
They have (or haven't you been following their press releases), and while people are annoyed, no one seems to be particularly "furious." The reaction is more one of "rolling our eyes." A migration kit from Linux to Windows will get about as much use as a football bat...but it is fun to watch the behomeoth flounder and flail around.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
If we're going to be starting another distro war, I think everyone should take a look at these three projects which aim to release a free edition of RedHat Enterprise Linux. Once you've got one of these running, even if these distro go under, you can still get SRPMS security updates from RH and build them yourself through 2008.
Tao Linux
White Box Linux
cAos
What Debian really needs is a program which can back up a Debian system by noting which packages are installed and then just saving /home, /usr/local, /etc, /var, /opt and so on. It would make backups a lot more sane and sensible.
"The urge to fly from modern systems, instead of moving through them to even greater, fairer things is, I think, an indi
IMHO Debian needs to cut back on the number of supported architectures
If you were one of the people who ran Linux on one of those "other" architectures, you wouldn't feel this way. There are already a hundred gazillion distributions that focus on just a few architectures, and very few that try to be platform-agnostic. Why, exactly, do we need to take one of the very few latter, and convert it to yet another one of the former?
In a lot of ways simply using debian is easier than not. It seems to be the only one immune to some of the political/software changes that break usability of other distros. That's why many new "distros" like Knoppix simply use Debian as the base of their systems. The fact that they toe a hardline and are a bit slow makes them stable and predictible...which is what you really need in OS software!
Global symbol "$deity" requires explicit package name at line 2. - If only $scripture started "use strict;"
It is now easy to install a Debian :
1. install Mandrake
2. run this script
Et voila !
> Ever run win2k3? No? Because win9x sucked so hard? double standards are fun.
Exactly what in my post makes you assume I've never run the later Windows, and that I don't judge it based on the exact same standards I apply to Debian and whatever other distro I happen to be running right now?
As it happens, as far as closeness to the ideal "it should Just Work, the way *I* want it to" goes, even the latest Windows are behind on both counts -- partly because its idiosyncrasies are often hard to solve, when they're end-user solvable at all, while that of my current chosen Linux distro are not for whomever knows what they're doing, which I like to believe I do. Thus making that distro much closer to the "Just Works" ideal for me than Windows.
Some of us DO check out competing offers and then decide purely on which is the best tool, which doesn't have to be the one your biases (or paycheck) drags you to. Cope.
-- B.
This sig does in fact not have the property it claims not to have.
...and Unstable for those of us who live on the bleeding edge. Seriously, living on the edge is not fun. When the maintainers decide to change the wireless LAN software so that my 802.11 card is no longer eth1 but now wlan0, I need to be able to reconfigure quickly so that my laptop isn't unusable for an extended period.
That's why it's called unstable, because it really is. Things change, sometimes substantially.
Every objection you have is valid, with the caviat that Debian is not difficult for someone who has done it more than once. Installing Debian doesn't take me multiple hours or days, it takes little for the base install and the pre-designed task-based "standard" packages. Just because I choose to select packages through dselect one at a time doesn't mean you have to.
Knoppix is indeed astounding, and the hardware detection system Knopper uses is being fed back into the main distribution. When I installed on the laptop I'm using right now, a Vaio PCG-GRT170, I used Knoppix as the install medium.
I would not recomend this method unless Knoppix does everything you want it to do already, or you like installing software by hand. The dependencies and unique packages built into Knoppix make bringing it into the mainstream Debian update system a serious effort.
If you want to install Debian, get the minimalist 30MB CD image. This puts a small base system in place to be built into whatever you want it to be.
Bob-
The Ludwig von Mises Institute. The reasoning individuals economics
Chapter 3.7 of the Debian Install HOWTO describes a cross install method for debian which works quite well.
I used it when I needed to install debian on a computer with new adaptec scsi controller which was only supported in 2.4.22+ :- boot Knoppix
- Follow Cross Install Instructions
- Ready.
Ok, it's not One-click-cross-install (tm).But if you need such a tool, why are you installing debian? You'd better use Fedora, Mandrake or Suse in this case.
while (!asleep()) sheep++
Try this sometime:
Now we can convert our bleeding-edge Gentoo distribution, into a Debian distribution with packages over two years old! Yay!
Karma: It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippy crap!