Slashdot Mirror
Tivo Tracks Superbowl Viewing Habits
ThePretender writes "Sprinkled in the Janet Jackson boob stories is an alarming bit of information: Tivo tracks subscribers' viewing habits. They know how many times the boob was viewed, among other good-to-have (meaning data worth $$) information. Yes, if you agreed to Tivo's privacy policy you knew they could do this, with the promise that you aren't identifiable. Put on the tin foil hats? Or just another way for them to keep your monthly fee down (snicker)." A story from 2002 has more information and makes clear that Tivo does have the capability to record every click you make on the remote control, at all times. Previously Tivo said they tracked 10,000 people for the Super Bowl, this year 20,000.
Tivo Tracks Titillating Timberlake Tit Touching!
Norman Cook's Ode to Sl
HDTV broadcast beat out the use of my tivo this year. i didn't even record the superbowl on it. HDTiVo is supposed to be coming out sooner than later for a retail price of $999, dish only. I don't think i'll be buying it right away.
- Privacy advocates have decried such technologies as invasive, but TiVo officials say they do not pass along information that would identify individual viewers.
While it's true that TiVo needs to collect "every click" as the first part of compiling this aggregate data, if the final data is just summarized habits of TiVo users with no individual information, is there a privacy issue?TiVo Watches the Super Bowl... oh, wait, that was about TiVo and the Super Bowl of Two years ago...
/. by...
See, TiVo's had their semi-permeable privacy policy since they started, as documented on
TiVo Data Collection Ramifications
TiVo To Sell Customer Data
Nielsen to measure TiVo usage
So, if this is shocking news to you that TiVo was able to quickly crunch the data and figure out the most rewound moment of the Super Bowl broadcast, you haven't been paying attention. They had this capability for any massively watched program since day one. It was part of the design of the system.
TiVo offers a detailed data service to broadcasters which lets them see by timestamp within an episode what moments people watched, rewound, and skipped. Rumoredly, TechTV's The Screen Savers bought that service once for just one episode, and it ended up proving that their managers where right about what people wanted to see a little more than the actual content-making staff wanted to hear.
The Super Bowl most rewound moment is something TiVo's been doing for years, just for the sake of putting out a press release to get the TiVo name into conversations about what we were gonna be talking about anyway the week after the event... and from Slashdot's coverage over the years, it appears to have worked.
Didn't we basically have this same story TWO YEARS AGO????
---- It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. It does this whenever it's told.
... accounts for the majority of replays tracked.
From the article, with emphasis added:
Privacy advocates have decried such technologies as invasive, but TiVo officials say they do not pass along information that would identify individual viewers.
When gathering customer marketing research, TiVo says it does not link viewer data to their name, gender or age -- only into one big database that can identify users by ZIP code.
What's interesting is how the article points out what TiVo does not do. They don't "pass along" information "when gathering customer marketing research".
It's not stated outright, but that sounds like they do record all that information... but it's ok, 'cause they don't use it for marketing purposes.
Which, of course, puts TiVo right up there with the so-called loyalty cards "privacy" policies. They promise not to resell personal information, but they do gather it, and it's available to anyone who knows a friendly judge.
The bottom line, as usual, is simple. Don't buy anything at Kroger, or watch anything on TiVo, that you wouldn't want [John Ashcroft | your wife's divorce lawyer] to find out about.
By the way, does anyone know if Dish Network's PVR phones home about my rewinding habits?
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
I am not sure if that statistic includes me 'coz I haven't un-paused my Tivo yet :)
Free XBox, PS2
They did it last year, they did it the year before that. They stated in their initial company releases that this is what they intended to do.
And you know what?
-DirectTV pay-per-view tracks what I watch...
-My ISP knows what web sites I've requested...
-My credit card company knows what I spend my money on.
-My hospital shares its information with my insurance company, which in turn shares its information with my company. (Because they have to pay their share of the bills)
It's my TV viewing info... I don't care. If anything, if they sell my viewing habits and realize that Firefly and Farscape are more watched than My Big Sweaty Boyfriend... That's a GOOD THING!
alarming bit of information: Tivo tracks subscribers' viewing habits.
This is unacceptable. From now on, I'll keep my Tivo box disconnected from the phone socket.
Just try to track my boob viewing habbits *now* mssrs Tivo! Ah! That's turned you white hasn't it, hey, hey?
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
Since Bush's State of the Union address.
Any anonymization Tivo claims to perform on data uploaded by an individual's Tivo unit is rendered utterly and totally worthless by the medium by which the data is transferred - a landline. Only an idiot would believe that Tivo doesn't use ANI information to tie data to individual users, even if the actual clickstream data being uploaded doesn't have include a serial number.
The marketing opportunities are too valuable to the company for them to ignore the possibility of selling detailed, individual viewer data as a revenue stream.
"Tivo: It's like Gator, for TV!"
-Isaac
I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. For Entertainment Purposes Only.
> A story from 2002 has more information and makes clear that Tivo does have the capability to record every click you make on the remote control, at all times.
Fortunately, they still don't have the ability to track what your other hand is doing, at any time.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Crispin, always wanted to be in the Neilson ratings
----
Crispin Cowan, Ph.D.
CTO, Immunix Inc.
Alarm?
What alarm?
This is a non-story.
I'd like to see a distribution of the amount of time the machine was kept on pause during that event. That would yield another interesting statistic. ;-)
To the making of books there is no end, so let's get started
Personally, I'd much rather have Tivo tracking users than networks relying on nielson ratings. This can only hurt shows like Malcolm In The Middle and Everybody Loves Raymond, two shows people "love" but nobody watches. With accurate ratings, these shows would have ratings lower than enrollment in daycare at neverland ranch.
Is show some more detail about what commercials were most watched also...
I just can't help but think that if real viewing stats were used as predictors of progamming popularity, we might have more stuff like Firefly, Mythbusters, Penn & Teller's Bullshit, etc. and less Everyone Loves Raymond, Friends, Frasier, or a million indistinct reality TV shows.
If it keeps shows I want to watch on the air longer, then let them see what I'm watching and recording, I say.
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
I am utterly failing to be either surprised or alarmed.
... so? Yes, I would be concerned if they said "Matt Hooper, 26, of Colorado Springs replayed the Janet Jackson breast scene a record 126 times. Sales statistics in the area also show an unusual spike in hand lotion and tissue purchases."
n y" standard Slashdot response, think about what you have trusted companies with. How many companies have your name and address? Your home phone number? Your bank account information? Your credit card information? Why did you trust them with such information, if no companies can ever be trusted?
OH NO! THEY CAN TELL THAT LOTS OF PEOPLE WATCHED THAT SCENE! DEAR LORD, THINK OF THE CHILDREN!
Ummmm
They haven't said that, or anything remotely resembling that. They have said "Tivo users watched this particular segment of the Superbowl more than anything else." So?
Yes, Tivo could do something horrible with my personal information. But then again, Hustler could also publish a big long list of everybody that subscribes to it, complete with home addresses, but they don't. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but at some point we just have to have some level of trust in other people. Tivo has said that my information is kept anonymous, and has given me no reason to doubt their word, so I don't see a big problem with trusting them.
And before you start the "oh-my-god-what-an-idiot-for-trusting-a-big-compa
If you have used a credit card, you must trust every single store at which you have ever swiped your credit card at least as much as I trust Tivo. If you have ever applied for a loan, you've coughed up your bank account information. And you're worried about someone knowing what television shows you're watching?
ZFS: because love is never having to say fsck
Here are a few links to a page on Norways biggest Newspapers website that show all the picture uncensored and even have the uncensored movie of her. Oh yes, it also includes the streaker that nobody in the US saw.
Click on "Neste Bilde" to see the next picture
Video
If you mod me down, I *will* introduce you to my sister!
I am going to be scarred for life.
Mike Hoye
I don't know about you guys but I wouldn't mind Tivo tracking me, in fact, I think I want it to. It'd be nice to track the statistics of some of the shows I like, possibly keeping them on air longer. This could be a good thing.
Some of you may have heard that CBS refused to air the winning MoveOn.org's " Bush in 30 Seconds " ad. Just prior to the Superbowl, MoveOn.org asked their subscribers/readers to boycott CBS by switching from CBS during the commercials to CNN, who were airing their 30-second spot.
Presumably, Tivo knows precisely how many people actually went through with it.
My
Limekiller
Tom Ridge is the Director of Homeland Security.
The joke would have been funnier if John Ashcroft had been the target.
Denver Isuzu Suzuki
I'm in favor of how Tivo handles this. I want the networks to know what I like. I want advertisers to know what commercials I actually watch. That way they can actually write stuff I want to watch.
IANALBIPOOGL (I am not a Lawyer, but I play one on GrokLaw.)
pet monkey Artemis who continually switches the TV to Cinemax After Dark. I am asleep when this is happening and cannot be held responsible for what my monkey is doing. He also watches HSN during the day and has ordered over $614,000 dollars worth of Hummels and commerative plates.
What I wonder is if TiVo is supplying the networks with information on commercial skipping, in return for not being sued for allowing such skipping?
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
I don't get it. There seems to be more public outrage at seeing a boob on TV than the apparent "mistake" of going to war based on incorrect information. What's wrong with this country?
When it is all said and done, all this did was prove once again why we should limit nudity, most people look much better with their clothes on, include Janet. Seeing her boob was quite a letdown, I'm not surprised that the SuperBowl ratings sagged a bit.
Ms. Jackson needs some support, and I don't mean from her family. One would think that they could implant some convictions to prevent this sort of droopy moral character in the future. We need more pert personalities to provide better role models for our country.
I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
Since Bush's State of the Union address.
Yeah, but people were using fast-forward with that one, not rewind!
The gift of death metal does not smile on the good looking.
I have to say in general that I don't trust corporations, however I don't feel the need to bolt on my tin foil hat after this revelation.
I do think that disclosed practices (such as anonymously monitoring for viewing habits) isn't necessarily a bad thing. I'm certain that Tivo has found and created new features based on viewing the tracking information.
I also think that Tivo stands a decent chance of displacing Nielsen's as a premier rating service. And as long as it is done anonymously, it is a god send. As I think that Tivo would more accurately reflect "real" viewing habits. (And of course possibly give it a geek edge, so that our favorite programing gets better ratings).
The second Tivo transitions over to a non-anonmous tracking service, is probably the day that their company headquarters will burn down. Outraged geeks will storm the place.
I think Tivo is continuing to walk on the correct side of a very tenuous debate over usability, tracking, and privacy invasion.
The comparison to Microsoft has to be made... If this were Microsoft I wouldn't trust them to track it, as they have a history of repeated violations of their own policies, written and stated. Whereas Tivo does not have that same history, that I am aware of.
Sorry, the broadcast specifically said we would need the express written permission of the NFL to redistribute any part of it...
What if we just rebroadcast it with implied oral consent?
--
the strongest word is still the word "free"
I saw the streaker yesterday on Pardon the Interuption. It was a pretty wimpy streak considering he had this odd puffy thong on. If you're not prepared to go full monty, don't streak.
From the long TV shot, I couldn't make out what was written on his back. It looked like a domain name. Anyone catch it?
Back to Janet's boob- I used my Tivo to fast forward through the entire aweful halftime show and didn't even know about the flash until Monday. When was the last time Janet had a hit song? Like 10 years ago? Brittney and Madonna kiss and get 10 times the publicity that their latest albums have. It's cool that singers like Alicia Keys and Gwen Stephani keep their tongues and boobs to themselves and get attention with thier actual music.
-B
Sure, I rewound the Janet thing a dozen times while my wife and I discussed if that thing was a pasty or tassel or what, but TiVo didn't include me in the 20,000 because our TiVo isn't hooked up to the phone.
Why don't I care?
1) I want TV exec's to know what I watch, so they keep it on the air.
2) I want Ad exec's to know what I want to buy, and how to make a commercial that captures my interest; I have free will and don't buy things just because Jamie Lee Curtis tells me too.
3) I want Tivo to stay and business, and better yet find a way to make enough to waive my monthly fee, without resorting to being asses about me hacking my Tivo to add a bigger drive, etc.
If it bothers you, grab a set of rabbit ears and disconnect from the grid. If you are upset that there isn't a full screen pop-up every time you push a button that the click has been recorded and may be sent to Tivo during the next phone connection, I don't want to hear it. If you own a Tivo and are just figuring this out, then I gotta feel you really aren't all that concerned about this anyway, or you would have bothered to check why your Tivo wants to call out every night.
Personally, I'd be more concerned about why the cable companies are working hard at getting their boxes installed in your house connected to their two-way network full time. How do you know there isn't a camera inside there?
You are in a maze of twisted little posts, all alike.
Here's a link to the stats
"Only one thing, is impossible for god: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." Mark Twain
Of course, next year, her nipples will have little stickers that say "Drink Pepsi!" on them... but hey, life's full of compromises.
If you really don't want them to be 100% aware of your habits generate some random noise.
The modern method would be an IR-equipped laptop which can change channels/volume/etc randomly while you're away (just have your TV volume down).
Or you could do it the old fashioned way (tape a few dozen remotes to the ground of a small room, put a few dozen cats in room... or just tape remotes to cat's feet).
The entire "sports copyright notice" required by the league is unneeded.... current copyright law doesn't even require "Copyright 2004" to be displayed. Everything gets full copyright protection the moment it is created by default, no action is needed.
The copyright notice video is basically a communication of "We are the NFL. We have laywers." aimed at putting a little fear into bar owners who subscribe to Sunday Ticket on a residential account when really they need to be paying the higher commercial rate and such.
I'd defintely have to agree with you. Owning a Tivo myself, I also make use of the "thumb" buttons to rate each show I watch, on the [doubtful] chance that it'll effect something somewhere. When you think about it, if you aren't a Nelson family, then you really almost have no voice on what is on television. This way, at least the stations know what you like/dislike. Also, it isn't like they didn't say they didn't track anybody, just that they won't personally identify you.
Incidentally, the (correct) quote, from the Congressional Record, is:
When Hitler attacked the Jews I was not a Jew, therefore I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the Catholics, I was not a Catholic, and therefore, I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the unions and the industrialists, I was not a member of the unions and I was not concerned. Then Hitler attacked me and the Protestant church -- and there was nobody left to be concerned.
-h-
American men who watch football like women's breasts.
Especially when we've^M^M^M^M they've been drinking.
-- www.globaltics.net
Political discussion for a new world
I activated my ReplayTV's "Content Skip" feature, so the machine automatically skipped all the dull football content and played only the adverts.
I hope somebody tracked that.
Da Blog
I just keep my Tivo unplugged from the phone line. Tivo can only transfer the data if you plug it in (to either the phone or the internet.)
Admittedly, my Tivo has been complaining forever that it needs to make a call - but that doesn't seem to affect anything. (They claim it needs to make a call to "get the latest updates and channel information" - but so far it hasn't been necessary)
We know you replayed the Jackson Boob Scene 273 times, and we're telling your mom.
SmashTech - No smashing of tech involved
"[Michaelangelo's David] shows part of the human body which, practical though they may be, are EVIL!"
Sorry for sounding a bit offtopic, but the people that are upset about this to get a life. In a country where it's okay to fry mentally ill people to death, let any eejit carry a gun, consume a huge proportion of the world's resources and invade a country for dubious reasons, exposing a bit of human flesh is greeted with the sort of outrage that you'd think would be reserved for the end of the world.Drill baby drill - on Mars
OK, saying that they won't run the moveon.org ad because they don't do "issue" advertising and then playing the anti-tobacco ad is a bit hinky. I
must agree on that. And, I must say I was doing stuff on the computer during most of the game, so the big yardage play and most of the commercials were ignored by me. I even missed the titty. But I didn't see a pro-Republican ad in the mix.
0f course, all the Republicans I know are non-smokers and non-drinkers, and the last Democrat politician I met was a liquor distributor, so I skew the Bud ads pro-Dem. Your mileage may vary on that.
Investor's Business Daily (body-cavity search required) said on Jan 15, 2004 that "... Nielsen has been tracking TiVo use since August 2002, but it hasn't released any findings publicly."
USAToday is featuring TiVo popularity information in their television listings: "On Wednesday January 28 USA TODAY unveils an enhanced package of television ratings coverage in the LIFE section, including a monthly listing of the Top 10 most rated programs based on an analysis of anonymous, aggregate data from 20,000 TiVo households."
And you can read more about Nielsen partnering with TiVo from a while back.
TiVo reporting aggregate TV viewing habits is no different from cable companies being able to tell what channels you're choosing to watch on your digital cable box, from websites gathering referrer and browser information from visitors, or movie studios talking about what the largest grossing movies were over the weekend.
I welcome TiVo's use of aggregate (*not personalized*) gathering of data for reporting to the networks. With luck, this could result in the networks deciding to keep certain shows that have high record/replay/time-shift value instead of cancelling them because nobody wants to watch those shows exactly when the networks choose to air them. If my TiVo usage can help dictate the types of shows that the networks will (or won't) air, then this is a win for all of us.
Plus why would they allow things like this?
TiVo's online FAQ explaining how to get them to stop collecting anonymous information from your TiVo.
TiVo's complete privacy policy
Yes, if you own TiVo and you don't like the idea of them collecting information about you, even anonymously, give them a call and let them know and they'll stop. No big deal. Of course, /. being a geek haven, I'm sure more than one person has hooked TiVo up to their home LAN and they monitor the network traffic to TiVo, so you can both see what they're already sending and what they send after you make the call.
I personally don't have a problem with this because of the manner in which they collect the information and what they're likely to do with that information. I guess if you're super-paranoid, you could reason that Scott Richter might buy out TiVo and start using all of the non-anon'd data (if they even keep it, which is probably spelled out in their privacy policy, which I'm too lazy to read). But, just for comparison...
Did you know that every time you use your credit card, the credit card company tracks your shopping habits? This wouldn't be so bad, but then they boast about the degree to which they're collecting information about you by sending out an itemized list of the things you bought every month, right to your door! The nerve!
If only these companies would take the hint from TiVo and let us simply place a call, and they'd stop registering that sort of data. That would be great, wouldn't it?
sev
but have you considered the following argument: shut up.
To download guide data?
I have a TiVo and knew about the policy. As long as they don't identify me specifically but use aggregated data, I'm fine with how they do it.
I wish networks would use more TiVo info to know what shows to cancel and what not to. But users are such a small sample of the population it's hard to do that...yet.
J
Abiit, excessit, evasit, erupit.
The entire "sports copyright notice" required by the league is unneeded.... current copyright law doesn't even require "Copyright 2004" to be displayed. Everything gets full copyright protection the moment it is created by default, no action is needed.
This part I have no problem with. What I have a problem with is the fact that they not only claim copyright to the telecast, but that even "accounts of the game" are prohibited.
I guess if I watched the game on TV, they could hold me liable for copyright infringement (my account is a derived work of their telecast?).
But what if I'm at the game? Can I go home and give an account of the game without getting attacked by legions of rabid lawyers?
I'm shocked that logic like that makes sense to you.
Do you go to movies in the theater? Do you see ads before the movie? Do you get in free?
Do you ever go to professional sporting events? Do you see ads everywhere in the stadium? Are tickets free?
Do you have a credit card? Do they send you ads with your monthly bill? Do you also pay them an annual fee (or maybe you don't)? Do you pay when you are late with a payment? Do they charge you interest?
Lots of companies cannot survive on just one revenue stream. If you didn't want them to collect the data, you can call them and opt out of the data collection.
Twostep
There are 10 different types of people in this world... those who understand binary, and those who don't.
The vast majority of the criticism has not been of the "Think of the children" hysterical condemnation school, but more a sense of outrage that this what is considered entertaining (bad dancing, crappy music, insincere patriotic posturing, crotch grabbing, fake astonishment, and showing a tit). The sheer lack of spontenaity, the absolute absense of anything remotely resembling talent, the dearth of inspired performance plus the Janet Jackson tit exposure left many feeling rather insulted, that the show was conceived by either an inexpirienced and purile mind or by a has been who is desperate to regain the spotlight.
Think back to the rather sterile, emotionless and absolutely unerotic kisses exchanged betwteen Madonna and Britney/Christina. Same crap, nothing spontaneous, nothing titilating, nothing exciting in the least. Simply juvenalia at its absolute, unentertaining worst.
As to why this devolution into the mindnumbingly boring realm of poor imitations of a seventh grade boy's psyche, perhaps it is evidence that the entertainment industry knows they are obsolete, they are desperate to retain the spotlight, and uncertain of when the public will realize that this dinosaur has no more new tricks to perform, and their hired talent no longer has anything with which to keep our attention. If they can't have our devotion, it seems they'll settle for dissatisfied scorn.
Read, L
Once properly hacked you can telnet to your TiVo and purge the keystroke logs! (in /var/log, where else!?) Not to mention the other nifty capabilities, like web-based control and Video Extraction...
there are 3 kinds of people:
* those who can count
* those who can't
Personally I'm outraged Janet had a piece of metal covering her nipple. That's complete bullshit.
(Please browse at -1 to read this comment.)
Tivo are collecting information to help them make their service better. It doesn't matter which way you look at it, whether you believe them straight off or think they are selling your information to Bill Gates so he can attack you with Windows XP CD's on your way to work.
If Tivo get ZERO feedback from users (privacy fanatics), they won't have a clue if their stuff is good or not. They NEED feedback. Seems tracking 20,000 over superbowl is a pretty good way of getting it. I mean if they really are recording all those button presses, they'll be able to tell if people are having problems with a particular function. Maybe they are hitting buttons waiting for a menu to update, and in the next iteration of Tivo - bang, no more slow menus...
It's interesting to see how many highly moderated posts are behind Tivo 100% as long as it remains anonymous. Personally, I'm OK with a company doing this as long as they're completely upfront about it (which Tivo is), although I'd be a little wary (again, that's just me).
However, this honestly seems to be one of those moments where Slashdot, as a community or group, becomes somewhat hypocritical. Note: individual posters agreeing with Tivo are not necessarily being hypocritical and this isn't me trying to lecture anyone who does support that company. Please allow me to explain why I think this.
Look at other cases where companies, or even governments, can or do collect anonymous information (or information that is then only handled in an aggregate way) and Slashdot usually cries out against them with the usual tinfoil hat jokes.
RFID tags is one such example. These are inherently benign and don't have much connection with an individual. Say you have a coat with an embedded with a chip which when read says, "CoatCo Coat, black, large" to the reading device. What if a reading device read that each time you walked into a store and that store then showed companies in an effort to get more direct marketing? It is essentially the same thing, as long as anonymity is kept.
"Ah ha!" some might say. "But hooking it up to video-cameras and receipts with my credit card, they can identify me readily." This is all quite true, but you could say the same with Tivo; they could correlate your credit card number, address and telephone number if they wanted to. Obviously, many people would not agree to such an invasion of privacy and Tivo probably would not succeed in doing so, nor am I trying to suggest that Tivo is just waiting for the right moment.
Now, RFID tags are not exactly the same as Tivo watching television habits. One big one is that you choose to watch Tivo, but you may not necessarily be knowingly choosing to have a RFID tag in your merchandise. But I think the comparison is still valid. Too, I find Tivo recording my information somewhat more disturbing than someplace finding out I prefer some type of jacket; in the store I'm in a public place and therefore have a lower expectation of privacy (people can see and recognize my jacket with their eyes), while at home it's somewhat unnerving.
Just to reiterate, Tivo is not "wrong" or "right" in this case. This is a personal issue between customers and a company. I just wanted to point out that perhaps Slashdot as a whole is giving Tivo a little bit of an easy ride. Then again, perhaps they've earned it for seeming (I don't own one) to respond so well to their customers.
TSage
When I turned my Tivo on for the very first time, it asked me very clearly if I would mind them recording anonymous usage data. I said 'Yeah, why the hell not', but anyone has the option to decline.