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Do Anti-Cheat Systems For Online Games Work?

Mr Wriggle writes "There is nothing worse than playing your favorite game online game, only to have someone frag you and your teammates blatantly using cheats. As many of you are aware, there are various Anti-Cheat systems available i.e. Punkbuster and Cheating Death. PunkBuster comes bundled in some games and is mandatory to play certain games on certain servers. I would like to ask the Slashdot community whether you think these systems work well, or do they cause more problems than they solve? Or is there a solution that the anti-cheat developers have overlooked? Additionally, is the locking-out of CD keys of people caught cheating the reason why more and more viruses attempt to steal CD keys of such games?"

131 comments

  1. Punkbuster by Xlipse · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've used PB with the latest BF1942 release. I've had ZERO problems with it. I've also noticed a lot LESS cheaters (but still SOME!) on PB enabled servers, which is great. It's worked well for me... so far.

    1. Re:Punkbuster by irokitt · · Score: 1

      I play America's Army on PB servers, and again, not every cheater is chased away by it. The problem is that PB will only stop the commmon, every-day cheats like aut-aim and ilk. If someone is dedicated and smart enough to write their own cheat, or use a cheat that PB didn't think of, they can slip through the cracks. The common one I used to see made it appear as if the player is lagging even if they have a low ping, so that they "jump" around and are harder to hit.

      --
      If my answers frighten you, stop asking scary questions.
    2. Re:Punkbuster by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I also play AA,and I must say that PB has definitely reduced the incidence of cheating. The major source of cheats that I am aware of does not issue public releases of cheats anymore. That said, I am sure there are private cheats that are in use by some players. But the cheating community has been reduced since the days when any player could go to a public website and download an entire cheating suite.

    3. Re:Punkbuster by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I stopped playing AA, because they included working Multiplayer cheats directly into the game.

      PB? Sorry, doesnt detect that.

    4. Re:Punkbuster by 77Punker · · Score: 1

      I've never heard of that fake lag chaet, but I've had low ping with loads of lag on many occasions due to packet loss. Jumpin like a jackrabbit with a ping of 70.

    5. Re:Punkbuster by Goldberg's+Pants · · Score: 1

      LOL! Great design then:)

      Back when one of the anti-cheat thing came out, I had trouble due to having modified some music or something in game. Can't remember what it was, but because the file didn't match, even though it was an irrelevant file, I still got booted.

      Other than that I've had no problems. Of course I don't believe they work either. Just like Securom and friends continue to update their "protections" (I use that term loosely), crackers are one step ahead. Same with cheats, when a new Punkbuster is out or whatever, the scumbag cheaters just find a new way to avoid it.

      Of course, the alternative is rampant cheating, so something is better than nothing. I think with CDKEY's, being caught cheating should get your key banned for good. (And I mean real evidence, not just some twat saying "He cheated").

    6. Re:Punkbuster by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      .. and how many times is the 'cheater' just on a funny connection? which brings to the point that if the cheat is not even run on the computer then the anti cheating software has very little possiblity of catching the cheater(and really, how can you trust that the cheater isn't cheating the anti-cheat program as well, surely they can run after released hacks and add detections to them and crc checking but that's pretty much it anyways). it can't detect taking amfetamine either(well, i'm pretty sure some koreans are playing high, pardon me for joking).

      I know, a 'lag pedal' would constitute as a cheat probably but anyways..

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    7. Re:Punkbuster by beakerMeep · · Score: 1

      No offense but why are we modding up recounts of peoples experience with PB as +5 insightful?

      --
      meep
    8. Re:Punkbuster by Xlipse · · Score: 1

      Uhm.. because we were supposed to share our experience and give our opinions on Anti-cheats... :) As I stated, Punkbuster cut down on cheats, but doesn't totally eliminate them. It also seems to run perfect for me, stability-wise. "I would like to ask the Slashdot community whether you think these systems work well, or do they cause more problems than they solve?" :)

    9. Re:Punkbuster by beakerMeep · · Score: 1

      Yeah -- I am not saying your post is stupid or anything just more informative than insightful is all.

      --
      meep
    10. Re:Punkbuster by Echo+Green · · Score: 1

      I play many games with PB, and I've never seen a cheater. Now in some older games (ie. JK1), I HAVE seen lots of cheating. Maybe I just dont play enough.

  2. Punks! by mahdi13 · · Score: 5, Informative

    I only play on Enemy Territory servers that use Punkbuster. I have had no problems with them (except when my client refuses to update so I have to manually update it, no big deal)
    I'd say the cheaters on these servers are few and far between, if one is discovered the admins are quick to remove them

    --
    "Some things have to be believed to be seen." - Ralph Hodgson
    1. Re:Punks! by HD+Webdev · · Score: 1

      I'd say the cheaters on these servers are few and far between, if one is discovered the admins are quick to remove them

      Same here.

      OTOH, I don't really mind the cheaters so much anyway except in tournaments. Any other time, they'll still lose in the long term. Cheats are a crutch that rot the mind that uses them to the point that the person can't think for themselves.

      I'm almost embarassed to say that I find it amusing to imagine the cheaters saying 'my precious' to themselves over and over even while I'm figuring out their thoughtless behaviour patterns and stomping the crap out of them after I figure them out.

      --
      This is not a dream, not a dream...we are transmitting from the year 1-9-9-9.
  3. similar question on misc@openbsd.org by nocomment · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A similar question was asked about port knocking on the misc@openbsd.org mailing list the other day. I think it was said best by henning (i think it was henning) "you want to fix buggy software...with more software?"

    I kind of have to agree, why not take the time to do it right the first time? Cheats are just creative uses of bad loops, or algorythms in the code (for example the long jump in quake III if you had a fast video card).

    --
    /* oops I accidentally made a comment, sorry */
    /* http://allyourbasearebelongto.us */
    1. Re:similar question on misc@openbsd.org by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is that no one is fixing the bugs allowing cheating.

    2. Re:similar question on misc@openbsd.org by ctr2sprt · · Score: 5, Informative
      Cheats are just creative uses of bad loops, or algorythms in the code (for example the long jump in quake III if you had a fast video card).
      No, those are exploits. Most cheats hook programs or key DLLs (like opengl.dll) and replace parts of the code, for example to aim for the player or make his walls transparent. If you're not that familiar with Windows, it's functionally identical to... I forget the exact environment variable name, it's LD_PRELOAD or something. It's not possible for programs to prevent this, as the replacement occurs at the level of the dynamic linker - the application has nothing to do with it.

      The issue is that you can just as easily use this trick to bypass protection methods like CD and PB. And, much like antivirus software, even small changes of existing cheats/viruses will usually elude the fingerprint checks of countermeasures.

    3. Re:similar question on misc@openbsd.org by prockcore · · Score: 1

      I think it was said best by henning (i think it was henning) "you want to fix buggy software...with more software?"

      Well then henning doesn't know what he's talking about. Cheaters are more often than not exploiting client side tweaks rather than game bugs.

      Opening the enemy textures in photoshop and painting them bright pink isn't a software bug that needs fixing, it's a cheat.

      Punkbuster makes sure that I haven't modified my maps or textures. It makes sure I haven't hacked OpenGL to turn off Fog. It also makes sure I'm not patching the exe to allow for aimbots etc.

      None of these things are caused by buggy software.

    4. Re:similar question on misc@openbsd.org by Krunch · · Score: 1

      I have no knowledge about this but wouldn't it be possible to have a aim cheat that wouldn't need to patch the game ? I mean, just look at what is on the screen and make the mouse cursor move to the enemy's head.

      --
      No GNU has been Hurd during the making of this comment.
  4. I like it by ptrangerv8 · · Score: 4, Informative

    To a degree...

    I play SOF2 on a PB enabled server... in fact, I search exclusively for those servers... I've noticed a couple of cheaters so far, but by far, it seems to work out quite well..

    Same goes for Enemy territory - not very many cheaters, and generally makes the game 'funner' to play...

    One thing I *did* notice was that when the 'sync gameplay' was enabled (I think thats what it's called) that it would slow everyones FPS down without really telling anyone about it... so people would have laglike issues on a BRAND NEW machine - but other than that no problems at all...

    As far as bannign Invalid CD-Keys - what a waste of time....

  5. Inverse by mugnyte · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Howabout a game that encourages cheating? Lag normalized, the constraints are the time you get to react to the incoming stream and build a response. Anything you can do with the incoming data is up to you. I know this gets away from "game" and more into code war, but that sounds more fun overall, especialyl if it lent itself to genetic algorithms. Eh, maybe I just miss Core Wars.

    1. Re:Inverse by nocomment · · Score: 2, Informative

      bzflag already exists. There are in fact cheat servers out there. Pretty fun game too :-)

      --
      /* oops I accidentally made a comment, sorry */
      /* http://allyourbasearebelongto.us */
    2. Re:Inverse by dtfinch · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You beat me to it. I was moving my mouse to click reply, then saw that you already posted one.

      I'm Dave, the lamer who wrote the most featureful bzflag cheat client out there, which I myself used on the cheat servers but was undoubtably used elsewhere after I released it.

    3. Re:Inverse by nocomment · · Score: 1

      can I have it? I"m not a lamer i just want to fly around and stuff...but I can't :-(

      --
      /* oops I accidentally made a comment, sorry */
      /* http://allyourbasearebelongto.us */
    4. Re:Inverse by dtfinch · · Score: 1

      Source code:
      http://www.mytsoftware.com/misc/bzsrc.zip

      Win32 binary:
      http://www.mytsoftware.com/misc/bzcheat.z ip

      Note that I intentionally impaired the binary version to keep the kiddies off the servers used by the general public. It'll only function properly on 1.7e6 servers and below, and it'll advertise that they're using a cheat client. The source code version has 1.7g2 compatibility with most cheats. Most of the cheats are subtle, and can give a player a serious edge without being caught, hence the impaired binary release.

      I do not advocate its use without permission from server owners.

      And it won't work on the newest servers because I stopped playing before the recent protocol breaking release came out.

    5. Re:Inverse by Bios_Hakr · · Score: 1

      Well, then you might as well play Progress Quest. The whole point of something like chess or counterstrike is to use a game to test your mind agianst my mind. Sure, you could sit there and let chessmaster plot your moves, but what's the point? Where is the mano-e-mano contest of champions?

      Actually, One game that matches your plan is corewars and its' spinoffs. You code a bot that plays a bot I coded.

      --
      I'd rather you do it wrong, than for me to have to do it at all.
    6. Re:Inverse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As I have nothing useful to add to this, I'll just nitpick grammar: It's "mano a mano". And FYI, it means "hand to hand", NOT "man to man".

  6. it helps by Inominate · · Score: 1

    It stops most of the "Load up and cheat and go fuck with other peoples games" type players. However, the cheats are almost always ahead of the cheat protection, so there are always people(Usually the practiced, hardcore, i-cheat-to-seem-better players) who will be cheating.

    A wise man once said,
    The client is in the hands of the enemy, don't trust it. In an FPS game, it's nearly impossible not to.

  7. Cheating Death by cronostitan · · Score: 5, Interesting

    We are running six Half-Life (HL) servers with Counter-Strike and Natural Selection Mods and have found that Cheating death is the best viable solution.

    Valve (the makers of HL) are offering their own security engine but its almost worthless since it gets updated rarley and it is aimed to detect cheats only.

    Cheating Death on the other hand is aimed not only to detect but to prevent cheats (for example by moving the things you arent supposed to see anyway (player behind wall) to the players back). Because of this Cheating Death can't catch a cheater but his cheats are becoming useless. In addition to that Cheating Death is updated very often and so it is able to prevent most cheats.

    Conclusion:
    A anti-cheating engine that isn't updated regulary is almost rendered useless in a long run.

    --
    Spelling errors were made for your amusement only...
    1. Re:Cheating Death by grumpygrodyguy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      We are running six Half-Life (HL) servers with Counter-Strike and Natural Selection Mods and have found that Cheating death is the best viable solution.

      I'm a veteran CS cheater. My favorites were the old speed cheats, and the 'complete' aim-bot, auto-kill cheats that allow you to kill sometimes 15 to 20 people in 1 match.

      I was shameless, and loved joining 32player servers just to rape everyone on the server until they left in disgust.

      Now you proobably won't see that in a CD or PB server, but most servers are public and people play very casually...usually searching for thier favoriate map as opposed to thier favorite server.

      Now I had a very good (6 months?) of whoreage before I was finally busted for good, there is some kind of network which is reported to by admins that regulates WON IDs for all players. If a particular WON ID gets many consecutive complaints...as surely mine did because I cheated like an SOB...then that person's WON ID can be blocked.

      My WON ID was blocked for 6 months...that was it...I couldn't play any more CS for 6 months. Let me tell you it was very effective, and I stopped cheating as a result of that experience.(Well...stopped cheating at CS anyhow ;) )

      --
      The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky
    2. Re:Cheating Death by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny
      I was shameless, and loved joining 32player servers just to rape everyone on the server until they left in disgust.

      Well, at least the rest of the world can take comfort in the fact that you're never likely to have children.

    3. Re:Cheating Death by Moggie68 · · Score: 1

      The problem with Cheating Death is that every time Valve updates Steam, Cheating Death has a stroke and we have to wait for the next update. Other than that it's good(tm).

    4. Re:Cheating Death by Gilesx · · Score: 1

      Are Aimbots more of a myth than reality? I play a lot of Wolfenstein and run a server, and was interested to try one out just to see how it works, and how much easier it makes the game.

      I searched and searched and searched some more, and came up blank on p2p networks and on google. Which leads me to the question - how much do Punkbuster stand to gain from publicising the abundence of aimbots which in all reailty are pretty difficult to find?

      --
      Sunday you're Thinking Different, Monday you're a huge tool, paying too much and waiting to think like everyone else.
    5. Re:Cheating Death by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Aimbots and wallhacks do exist. And from what I've heard the best way to spot someone using a hack is to have tried it out yourself. A buddy of mine tries out different hacks on public servers pretty often and asks me to watch if he's being obvious. There's a lot of aimbot hacks that are practically unoticable.

    6. Re:Cheating Death by Pvt_Waldo · · Score: 1

      You probably got caught by Valve's VAC (Valve Anti Cheat). Not the best detection system around, but it has the capacity to ban you from ALL servers for a long period of time based on your WON ID (or if you are a modern type and not a Neanderthal, your Steam ID).

      But luckily for some, Valve offers up a form where you can plead your case. The above parent author? Ehh don't bother.

      http://www.steampowered.com/index.php?area=cheat _f orm

    7. Re:Cheating Death by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I coded opengl cheats that would work across several different games, not just counter-strike. Cheating Death is very effective, in my expeirence. Not only did it detect my cheats that were not released to the public (only clan members had them, we used cheats to get to the top of tournament ladders) but it also didnt send you information you werent supposed to know. Wallhacks became much less effective since client didnt know there was a player behind a wall unitl he was about to be revealed. Aimbots still worked but they gave me a hell of a time trying to get around the anti cheat measures. That said, if someone wants to cheat they will and nothing is going to stop them. CD just made me more determined to conceal the cheat and I was successful. I'm not bragging, in fact many other coders got past CD easily but CD acted quickly and caught the public cheats within a short time.

    8. Re:Cheating Death by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Im the parent poster adding something about PB. Punkbuster was mostly ignored by me since they never detected any of my cheats. In fact they were so poor in detecting cheats they resorted to taking screen shots of players' screen. Of course I was able to intercept these calls with a packet monitor and automatically diable cheats while the screen shot was taken, then auto re-enable after a second. Later I was able to alter the pictures sent to the server and donated to the admins some nice gay porn. PB worked much like today's virus scanners, they would add cheat detection as the cheat was released to the public. Soon cheat coders got irratated by this and released the source code to cheats. Simply changing one statement and recompiling was enough to bypass previously detected cheats. Even virus scanners know this approach to detection is bad and they look for a specific sequence of assembely instructions that are part of the payload.

  8. PunkBuster works pretty well by JMZero · · Score: 5, Informative

    Lately I've been playing Enemy Territory mostly, and only on PunkBusted servers. For a while, wallhacks were fairly common in ET (when you're spectating someone, detecting wallhackery is fairly easy) - but I haven't noticed a cheater for a long time now.

    PB seems to work as advertised, and has never given me any problems. If it's letting some cheats through, it's not enough that it would affect my enjoyment of the game. If someone cares more about the outcome (or their performance), I suppose they may want a more foolproof tool - but PB is good enough for me.

    --
    Let's not stir that bag of worms...
  9. Whenever you keep score by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Whenever you have a game that keeps score you will have people who try, and many times find a way to cheat. Even when there is nothing to directly gain from it. For the life of me i can't figure it out

    1. Re:Whenever you keep score by farnz · · Score: 1
      Further, whenever you have a game that keeps score and has a possibility of cheating, you get players who accuse others of cheating just for being different to them.

      Case in point: Agents, a web based game that I play has someone posting regularly on the message boards accusing huge lists of people of using a script to play the game. I happen to be in one of those groups, and to know quite a few of the people he's accused; we're all playing it just for fun. Yet he's not happy being at the top levels of the game; he's got to accuse people who are just playing of cheating to make himself happy...

    2. Re:Whenever you keep score by cr_nucleus · · Score: 1

      Well, one the best example of this would be the Seti@home cheaters. You should have a look at this story.

    3. Re:Whenever you keep score by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My clan and I cheated in leagues and were at the top of counterstrike ladders for a long time. Without any accusations or any players caught cheating through out the whole time we participated. It got old being #1 and we disbanded and went back to cheating on public servers.

  10. BFSecure by xankar · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Punkbuster is definitely excellent for public servers. It thins out cheaters hugely(but not entirely), and what cheaters there are don't last long on well-adminned servers.

    On the other hand, It isn't too hot for competitve play. Updates aren't frequent enough.

    I play bf1942 in the TWL 8-man ladder, and I must say, BFSecure is definitely a great tool. Updates are extremely frequent(at least once a week-- i only update before matches). It performs its job exceptionally-- the only thing we have to worry about is people using exploits.

    Unfortunately though, as the name suggests, bfsecure is specifically for battlefield. I don't think they could keep up with the cheats if they had to handle multiple games.

    --
    ~To choose doubt as a philosophy of life is akin to choosing immobility as a means of transportation. -Yann Martel
  11. Different goals... by malakai · · Score: 5, Informative

    The first goal of most games is to be 'playable' over broadband with moderate latency. In order to accomplish this certain tradeoffs must be made. These are not bugs.

    The 'long' jump in Quake is hardly a 'cheat' that PunkBuster is designed for. PunkBuster purpose is to remove client mods that give you auto-aim, radar/enemy position info, and enemy texture/highlighting type cheats. All of these involve modifying the client.

    Yes, the client knows where all the players are. Yes that is a weakness. No it can't be fixed easily, because we have to deal with 60ms-200ms one way latency. That requires some think ahead, which means giving the client more info than they should have. If this was any other type of software than a FPS game we could suffer performance for security.

    Programs like Punkbuster use arms-race philosphy to try and stay ahead of the cheat makers. Far less time goes into defeating a specific cheat, then it does to build that cheat. One small change to the pb client and away goes 2weeks coding work of a cheat-maker. PB tries to guarantee the client environment, including memory, and what they see on screen. The pb screen captuing util is the best defeense for an admin.

    Having said all that, it's logically impossible for them to do this 100% effectively. You can not control and audit access the the system memory and devices on modern day motherboards. Anything you have running to check this can be modified.

    It will take technology such as Pallidum to make true 'anti-cheat' and balanced playing environments. I welcome the day game programmers can trust the client and leverage caching techniques that require pervasive knowledge of the game world. It will make games faster and more enjoyable for a broader range of peple in geographically disparate areas.

    1. Re:Different goals... by Nyhm · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I agreee with malakai's philosophy: anything in the client is suceptible to attack by the local player. However, I do not share malakai's optimism that Palladium (and other DRM technologies) will solve any of this. Rather, it'll just be another level of the same "arms race."

      It is a fundamental flaw to attempt to secure what is in the hands of the enemy (to paraphrase a well-said post below).

      (OK, so I don't have anything of substance to add, yet. Sorry, I was deliberately wasting your time.)

    2. Re:Different goals... by irokitt · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Whoa, did you just compare online game cheating to nuclear weapons?

      --
      If my answers frighten you, stop asking scary questions.
    3. Re:Different goals... by foidulus · · Score: 1

      Well, a revolution in distrubuted game servers could also do the trick. You could theoretically just send the client spews of raw image data(and send back inputs), but it's super expensive. This is the reason the thin client never took off.
      However,(this is actually an area of research that I am involved in), there is another option. Basically, when the game is distributed, you make sure that each copy of the game is different enough such that a cheat that works for hacker x won't work for script kiddy Y. You change around things in memory, modify constants(without changing the output obviously) etc. Right now it's kinda still in it's theoretical stages(I have a very basic Java obfuscator completed, but it doesn't do much). The idea is, talented people are going to be able to break the game no matter what you do, however it only becomes a problem when they release their work and script kiddies by the masses can run it. You stop the script kiddies, and you stop 90% of the problem(they could still release the whole game, but what cracker is going to waste that much bandwidth for the sake of script kiddies).
      Just my 2 cents, tell me what ya think.

    4. Re:Different goals... by bWareiWare.co.uk · · Score: 1

      This is the fist time that I have heard of polymorphic code being used to prevent crackers.

      You can at least rely on your system making PB obsolete, even if it doesn't stop cheating!.

    5. Re:Different goals... by bWareiWare.co.uk · · Score: 1

      I can't help feeling your post was a Trojen FlaimBait (+5 Informative for pro- Palladium on /.), but anyway:

      If you want hardware based DRM to protect your games why not use a console? Okay M$ are hoping that Palladium might actually work (as opposed to the current Xbox BIOS locks), but this sort of thing will always be much easier to implement on limited function consoles then multi-function PCs. If you aren't going to mod the games anyway then what is the advantage of a PC?

      As always Palladium doesn't actually completely stop cheating. I know this is any absurdly extreme example but you will always be able to hock up a webcam to a second machine and use it to run an image recognition based auto aim (or pink walls etc.). Or you could use a bank of machines logged on as a 'Spectator' to give you extra surveillance. They will always be ways to cheat and their will always be people wanting the challenge of finding and exploiting them.

      Using hardware DRM in place of software ups the stakes but doesn't alter the game.

  12. America's Army - cheats are "built in" by jspraul · · Score: 4, Informative

    punk busters is supposed to keep america's army players in line, and it pretty much does as much as it can.

    however, it doesn't help that the developers decided to include a 'dev mode' or something that's basically providing a bunch of built-in cheats even in the latest 2.00a version.

    1. Re:America's Army - cheats are "built in" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, you're right, cheats are built in using the mpcheat command in the console.

      Problem is, this didn't magically appear in the latest version, it's been there since 1.0.

      And people can't cheat online with them, since the server needs to be cheat enabled. Most of the time this is used for sniper-only games.

      Why even bother mentioning this if you don't know what the hell you're talking about?

    2. Re:America's Army - cheats are "built in" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay this just bothered me so I have to reply

      I find it funny that you are tellin him that he does not know what the hell he is talking about when in fact it is you that doesnt have the slightest clue. There is a new command in AAO that lets you see through walls and all that fun stuff. This is a NEW things since 2.0a or whatever it is. Do your homework before you decide to try and be smart

  13. In the only game or AA I ever played on the gamespy server (which is protected by punkbuster), half of the people in the game were cheating. I was so discouraged at the failure of punkbuster that I never played AA again, especially because it can't keep up with the new cheats because it covers so many games.

  14. Re:nah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Man, what you need is the punkbusterbuster-buster. I've actually got a few in stock. Contact me through the regular channels and I'll hook you up with it at a discount. Or subscribe to my newsletter.

  15. saw it working just yesterday by prockcore · · Score: 2, Informative

    Just yesterday I was playing AA, and PB kicked someone off the server for cheating. The message was something about a skin hack.

    So I know that PB works, because I've seen it in action.

    1. Re:saw it working just yesterday by Krunch · · Score: 1

      When I played Counter-Strike, some anti-cheat softwares used to kick me. But I never used cheat with that game. People that get kicked are not always cheaters.

      --
      No GNU has been Hurd during the making of this comment.
  16. Push hasn't come to shove yet mostly by MMaestro · · Score: 5, Insightful
    After reading everyone else's comments, I noted that most of the "successes" anti-cheat programs have attained are largely in the FPS genre and centered around only a few games (namely BF1942, Enemy Territory, Half-Life+mods, and SOF2).

    However, I think both the previously made comments and the news report itself is asking a different question for a different topic. Read the title again.

    Do Anti-Cheat Systems For Online Games Work?

    Note the fact that it merely states 'Online Games', yet everyone here is talking about FPS games. Well what about games like Warcraft 3? Theres currently no Punkbuster support for it (although Blizzard is doing a fairly good job at monitoring and banning cheaters). Theres no (effective 1st party) support for anti-cheating programs for Half-Life and its mods (Punkbuster and Cheating Death don't count).

    What I'm trying to say is that this generation of anti-cheat systems is nothing more than a "warm-up" for next-gen games such as Half-Life 2 and Doom 3 (and maybe UT2k4 we'll have to see how its accepted though since its shipping on SIX CDs). We know pretty much anyone who considers themselves a gamer will pick up either HL2, Doom 3 or both so the chances of cheats being written is obviously high. When HL2 comes out (since its being released first), expect to see a complete change in the way anti-cheat systems are implemented in games.

    Oh, and to answer the question: Yes, they do work. For now.

    1. Re:Push hasn't come to shove yet mostly by damiam · · Score: 1
      I noted that most of the "successes" anti-cheat programs have attained are largely in the FPS genre

      Well, yes. That's where most cheating happens. RTSs and MMORPGs are much harder to cheat in, simply because of the way the games work. The worst you can do in many cases is a maphack, and often even that's not really possible.

      --
      It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
  17. Can't really tell... by sbryant · · Score: 3, Informative

    It does seem to have gotten better, but sometimes I can't tell if someone really is that good, or if they're cheating. Of course, I don't like being shot round corners by cheaters; bots can also look like cheating players - they are very accurate over long distances, which normal players generally aren't.

    One giveaway is ping: it's fair to assume that if someone has got a significantly better ping than you, they are going to get the shots in better. I've noticed that my playing is much better with a ping of 80 than with one of 120 - somehow I miss less the faster my ping is. For many, changing from an old modem to isdn/cable/dsl has at least as big an effect as any cheat would. I therefore think it's fair to suspect someone of cheating when they keep on fragging you although they have a 200 ping and you have 100.

    With that said, I don't play on many servers that require anti-cheat programs like punkbuster, although the newer (steam) versions of HL and co seem like they might now have anti-cheat stuff built in.

    -- Steve

    1. Re:Can't really tell... by Phoenix_SEC · · Score: 1

      Upgrading computers makes that much of a difference too...

      I remember back in the days that I was playing Quake and Doom in 320 windows with 15-30 fps.. luckily, was solo or only one other player (ahh, the days of modems).

      BUT, when I upgraded my computer, I owned; after playing with such crappy conditions, the upgrade made a huge difference.

    2. Re:Can't really tell... by Bios_Hakr · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you play counterstrike with the new netcode enabled, you get shot around corners pretty often. Don't sweat it. Basicly, his computer does not show you as being behind the corner because of lag compensation. If you run right up to a corner and stop, the server may assume that you kept going. You see yourself behind a corner. He sees you out in the open.

      Not to mention that most of the guns can shoot through up to 3 feet of wall. Standing behind a door or right behind a box or a corner is useless for cover.

      --
      I'd rather you do it wrong, than for me to have to do it at all.
  18. My real problem w/ online FPS by Xenophon+Fenderson, · · Score: 1, Funny

    There is nothing worse than playing my favorite game online game, only to have someone frag me using mad skills. Some of these guys are so good (or is it that I'm so bad?) that I don't even have a chance to get off two shots after I respawn before I'm killed, AGAIN. It is so frustrating. America's Army is the worst. It seems like everybody out there is so much better at the game that I am. Even newbies kick my ass all the time. It is so embarrassing.

    The only way I even have the slightest chance is if I cheat. Otherwise the game is so unfair, it's not even fun.

    --
    I'm proud of my Northern Tibetian Heritage
    1. Re:My real problem w/ online FPS by real_smiff · · Score: 2, Insightful

      um.. the solution to this is to play with people on your own level, and work your way up. most games have "newbie" servers, or try playing with friends on a LAN first. sorry, but i have no sympathy with you at all, saying "the only way I even have the slightest chance is if I cheat". if this was allowed, where would we draw the line? do you turn the cheat off when you're doing well "oh, but i was having so much fun". no. cheating = wrong. getting better the honest way is also so much more fun. if you really can't seem to get better, then find a better game (a better game for you, hell i have no idea what's a good game atm i haven't played a game in years :/).

      --

      This is my Sig, this is my Gun. One is for Slashdot and one is for Fun.

    2. Re:My real problem w/ online FPS by Kyouryuu · · Score: 2, Insightful
      So your philosophy is "I suck, therefore all other players must bow before me while I cheat my way to the top"?

      You, sir, are the problem and why we need anti-cheat systems in the first place.

      Play games with single-player modes against bots to develop your skills. Play on heavily-populated servers where there is wide range of players and skills to challenge. Success does not happen overnight, like any game practice is essential to become decent at it.

      Only a selfish clod would ruin the game for everyone else by cheating to cover his own incompetence.

    3. Re:My real problem w/ online FPS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ahh, I see your point.

      "This game is so frustrating and unfair to me, I should make it frustrating and unfair to everyone else instead!"

  19. Re:nah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

  20. False Postives by KurdtX · · Score: 5, Interesting


    I knew a guy in college (back when the anti-cheat programs were just getting popular) who was really good at shooters (particularly UT). In fact, he was too good: if he played on servers that had aimbot detection on he would get banned if he was having a good night. On servers without anti-aimbots the players would decide he was cheating and ban him after a while too. Unfortunately he had to completely retreat from public servers, and only play with people who knew him, although they still bitched about how accurate he was. I actually sat behind him and watched as he would catch a glimpse of someone on the other side of the map, move to a better location, and then heatshot them a few seconds later. He mostly used the sniper rifle, but just because of it's increased power (he got body or head on 90% of shots, so he mostly didn't need more than one shot), he usually made most of the flag caps for his team too.

    --

    Kurdt
    I'm not anti-social. Just pro-technology.
    1. Re:False Postives by Psx29 · · Score: 1

      Sounds like this guy should play for money

    2. Re:False Postives by beakerMeep · · Score: 1

      Sounds like a bad way to decet a aim bot. I would think a better way to detect most cheats would be to encrypt as much data as possible and to do regular CRC/checksum/hash checks on it to verify. But I am not really a programmer so if someone knows better please post.

      --
      meep
    3. Re:False Postives by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      Sounds like my girlfriend's kids when I play them at games. Her youngest son started calling me a cheater when I hit him with at 10 piece combo at the YuGiOh fighting game for the PS2.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    4. Re:False Postives by Dachannien · · Score: 3, Funny

      I knew this other guy who was playing a bit of Doom 2 against a friend down the hall in the dorms. The guy down the hall had the plasma gun, and was shooting across a wide open room at him. But this guy weaved in and out of all the shots without getting hit, popped the other guy twice with the berserker pack, and killed him that way.

      Much swearing was heard from the other end of the hall :)

    5. Re:False Postives by Telastyn · · Score: 1

      Similar:

      In Quake 1 using threewave CTF:

      I managed to grapple to an enemy who had a quad lightning gun, full health, switch to shotgun, and kill him that way.

      Impressive as that is, we were both in the university lab [20-30 machines with people doing schoolwork]. So after that he stood up, slammed his headphones down, turned and yell "You son of a bitch!".

    6. Re:False Postives by SurgeryByNumbers · · Score: 1

      When you're that good and playing against someone who isn't of nearly the same skill as you, maybe you should try to be a good sport (just a thought). Set fewer traps. Use less powerful weapons. Don't go get armor. Try a different play style or oddball strategies. Whatever.

      It's not like completely slaughtering everyone else is fun for long, unless you get a kick out of making people angry. If the latter is the case, you probably shouldn't be allowed out in public.

    7. Re:False Postives by Krunch · · Score: 1

      It may be offtopic but for "normal" players, there is not much difference between playing with really better players and playing with cheaters. In both case there is no fun (for the "normal" players).

      --
      No GNU has been Hurd during the making of this comment.
  21. Nice try, but if there is no support... by Rares+Marian · · Score: 1

    how can you even ask the question in terms of unsupported games? You are suggesting that people are overlooking unsupported games. We can't know whether it works for those games until we try it out, but so far we do know that it does work for supported games.

    So really your question is Is there anything holding back support for those games?

    --
    The message on the other side of this sig is false.
    1. Re:Nice try, but if there is no support... by MMaestro · · Score: 1
      Thats right, I am suggesting that people are overlooking unsupported games. Thats because unsupported games constitute the majority of games out there. Did Quake 3 ship with anti-cheat software? Did Jedi Knight 2? What about No One Lives Forever 2? Return to Castle Wolfenstein (Not Enemy Territory)? Did Half-Life?

      And to answer the question which YOU posed, "Is there anything holding back support for those games?". My answer is: Yes there is something holding back support for those (presumably future) games. Its called financial gain and loss. Do you REALLY think that the makers of Punkbuster would let Valve use their anti-cheat program with Half-Life 2 without paying them? Enemy Territory, sure fine its a free game and it'd give them free advertisement. But Half-Life 2? Now you're dealing with the big boys who burn thousands of dollars everyday they sit on their golden egg.

    2. Re:Nice try, but if there is no support... by Rares+Marian · · Score: 1

      I was thinking more along the lines that some types of games can't be cheat proofed, but I could be wrong there. As for the cash motive, well I hate to say it but you'd see more games supported if users were to pay for it rather than game companies that might feel insulted by the proposition that someone outside fix something that really isn't a bug just simple inevitable environment abuse.

      --
      The message on the other side of this sig is false.
    3. Re:Nice try, but if there is no support... by prockcore · · Score: 1

      Return to Castle Wolfenstein (Not Enemy Territory)?

      RtCW didn't ship with PunkBuster, but it was added a few months later in a patch... compare the number of known cheats in the v1.0 RtCW (grenade spamming, etc) with the number of known cheats in the latest version and I'd say that PB seems to work great.

  22. Cheating by Deliveranc3 · · Score: 1

    There will always be cheating, there is nothing you can do about it. Ventrillo is supposedly a feature but it is just the perfect way to cheat. People used to wacth each other's screen's now they don't even need to do that anymore, expect it. If you are playing on a server there will be people who cheat, some of them may not even think they are cheating by your definition. Just enjoy the satisfying feeling you get when you awp a speed hacker or wall fire a wall hacker. Don't cheat, it makes you a worse player.

    1. Re:Cheating by Eternal_Newbie · · Score: 1

      yeah, two guys with ventrilo and good teamwork is almost like a living wall hack. i'll admit that whenever my clan and i go to pubbing on CS we vent like crazy. many a times we were called wall hackers.

  23. Re:nah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't you know THEY kill all the subscribes as the first setp of the conspiroy

  24. Re:Huh? by 77Punker · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    I corrupted your mom's back door! Yeah yeah, mod me down! You know I'm funny!

  25. Banning CD keys by Carthum · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Banning CD's keys sounds like a good idea to stop cheating but in the end it only hurts the naive players. Those who cheat generally have no problem scamming people out of their cd keys. They are already proved they are dishonest by cheating in the first place.

    1. Re:Banning CD keys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would like to give praise to the creators of the starcraft and warcraft series. They encypt the cd key in a 400mb file along with the rest of the resources. This made it quite hard for me to retrive keys with a trojan i coded. The unreal series keeps keys in a text file and counterstrike/halflife keeps them in the registry. It was all to easy to put a file on irc named ps2emulator.exe and just sit back and watch keys roll in. Honestly I wasnt trying hard at all but I collected hundreds of keys. The exe was so small it wouldnt cause any lag when I was playing and had my side of the proggy running the the backround. Come to think of it, it was really stupid to send the keys to my home comp but I was in highscool didnt know better. I printed the keys, cut them to strips and sold them around school for $1 or 10 keys for $5.

  26. Ultimatly, only with 'trusted computing' by MBraynard · · Score: 2, Informative
    The games will never be secure because a good programmer can make a Turing machine that can fool the host.

    The only alternative is to use a hardware driven, trusted computing set of keys that validate that *the* hardware is there and that a real 'punkbuster' program is running. Although, in theory, if you can hack this key, you can get around even this, although the key can be made sufficiently difficult so that you will need centuries to crack it and you lack the ability to physically pull apart a CPU.

    Working against any cheat is publicity. Most hackers do not make the cheat for their own purposes but because they WANT publicity (I am guessing about the 'most' part - I have no imperical evidence). And once a cheat is publicized, Punkbuster, etc. can break it.

    Of course, we have a the hackers who only share with their clan or just use them themselves, but their impact on the average player should be limited.

  27. Cheat-Free ProQuake by molo · · Score: 2, Informative

    ProQuake is a modification to the original Quake (NetQuake, not QuakeWorld) code to provide some client-to-server verification of maps and models.

    I'm curious if anyone here has heard of any attacks on this cheat-free method?

    Thanks
    -molo

    --
    Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
  28. That happened to me all the time by Orien · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I don't really have time to play games anymore, but when I was still a student I was hooked on the original Unreal Tournament. Me and a friend of mine were in a clan together and neither one of us ever cheated. Ever. But you know what? We got accused of it all the time. Especially him. I would sit there and watch him and it was amazing how good he was. Almost every map we would play on any server he would have the most frags by about 100. I would be number two about 10 higher than most people, except on 'thorns'. Man, I loved that map. Both of us could get 200 frags and be miles ahead of everyone else. I used to get so tired of these whiny teenage wimps not having enough ego to admit that we were better than them. They would start calling us cheaters and convince the admin to ban us. It got hard to find servers to play on. Of course my friend didn't help the situation any because he loved to talk trash and that would further lead people to think that he cheated. You can imagine the senario:

    "How did you kill me!!!!!111 I had full armor and health!"
    "It's called a headshot. Get used to them."
    "WTF!! You kill me every time I walk around that corner!"
    "It's called 'aim', you should get some"
    "This SUX0RS. You are using an aim bot :("
    "Aim bot? Is bot short for robot? I don't have one of those, but your mother says I love like a robot"
    1@|\/|37_69 voted to kick+ban You_Suck

    So let that be a lesson to all of you out there. Sometimes people ARE just that good.

    1. Re:That happened to me all the time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      You know, when I was in college I went to parties and got laid. You decided to be in a clan. Who made the better choice?

      Oh, unless you're talking about the Ku Klux Klan. That one rules!

    2. Re:That happened to me all the time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      You know, that's another common misconception. Dispite what you might think it is possible to both be in a clan, AND get laid. I did both in college without problems.

  29. Punkbusters eat up all resources by superpulpsicle · · Score: 1

    I hate cheaters, but I hate laggy performance even more.

    I know of a server admin who used to host a RTCW server back in the original release with RTCW when punkbusters didn't exist. He claims the ping times and average server ran fine on 1 gig of RAM. He later upgraded to 2 gigs.

    Since the introduction of punkbusters, he has had numerous times when RAM would just randomly be used. Despite all the player's ping times looking normal, performance just didn't feel the same. Even myself as a player have to admit the game just feels slower on punkbuster servers.

  30. Re: Broad assumptions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's an example of ONE "cheat" which was a result of a programming problem. But to say ALL cheating is a reasult of bad programming is ridiculous. Bad programming is not what enables some people to use hacks that turn walls invisible, or allow bullets to fly through walls.....

  31. How do cheats work? by beakerMeep · · Score: 1

    I would think the way to detect most cheats would be to encrypt as much data as possible and to do regular CRC/checksum/hash checks on it for the server to verify (although I would assume this would slow the FPS). Can someone explain this better? I am not a programmer (like you couldn't guess that).

    --
    meep
    1. Re:How do cheats work? by WWWWolf · · Score: 2, Informative

      The main reason there are cheats is that the game clients know too much. In ideal world, the game clients would be completely stupid and would only know what's necessary (for example, in FPSes, the client would only know of the players that are in the player's view).

      However, implementing things in "dumb" way is not efficient or particularly lag-friendly, so clients have to know a lot of things. The more secure you make the client protocol, the slower and more unreliable the game becomes.

      In particular, the clients know where each player are, and where they're apparently moving to.

      Also, some clients aren't too efficient what comes to drawing the picture; the client tells graphics card to draw whatever objects are nearby, whether they're hidden behind other objects or not.

      So, now there's two ways to exploit it: Either mess with the client by analyzing what the client knows (calculate optimal firing direction and moment by analyzing at the player positions, etc etc) or mess with the display drivers (make all polygons on the screen translucent, enabling people to see behind walls).

      That's some of the basics. =)

  32. CS anti-cheating research by Nyhm · · Score: 1

    The current crop of "anti-cheating" software mostly tries to analyze when a player is playing "too well." This does not solve the underlying flaws in the system.

    There are some CS research papers, which are starting to address cheating from a more fundamental (theoretic) point of view. Here's one that applies cryptography to prevent cheating for distributed game protocols:

    Cheat-Proof Playout for Centralized and Distributed Online Games

    From the SIGNL lab at UMass, Amherst.

    Anyone know of any more?

  33. Cons of Anti-Cheat technology by Deliveranc3 · · Score: 1

    First off lag, anti cheat technology means it takes longer to connect to servers and there is lag present once you arrive. Not a big problem anymore but no one likes losing a fps or two for no reason.

    Restrictive net code often leads to problems inside the game, several games have issues where if you walk around a corner the opponent may not be there for a second then suddenly appear, this is a bigger problem than cheating.

  34. CoD need PB by Maserati · · Score: 1

    I've started playing CoD recently, and the killcam is a great way to spot aimbots. I haven't seen many on clan servers, but they're out there in numbers.

    --
    Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1992-1951
  35. Give it some time to mature. by shoolz · · Score: 1

    Until PB works in a manner that is completely transparent to the user, it will remain a great technology that is poorly implemented. Why should anybody have to spend hours educating themself about the intricacies of PB to play online? Personally, I am tired of the constant warning messages that I receive even when I am playing Quake 3 offline. I should not have to configure this thing...

    1. Re:Give it some time to mature. by grolschie · · Score: 1

      As a player, there's no PB configuration. If you run a server, then sure expect to. You are bascially laying down the rules for your server. The only PB error messages I get it online where the game server admin has specified game-specific settings, and I have to configure my *game* .ini file (game cvar settings) not PB, else I get the kick.

  36. as an ADMIN by Starve · · Score: 0

    I admin a server, for a half life modification and the only way I've found thats surefire and true is that you just figure itou t on your own, its kinda obvious when a guy has 400 kills and 8 deaths in a server full of people, and also their attitude has to do a with a lot, if you ask them a qustion and they get defensive it generally is a yes, if they play it off as nothing and laugh you just need to push farther and its generally a YES, and the rest just kinda chill out an say nah im not hacking. But otherwise if your good enough as an admin, you can just see it. especially speedhackers.

    --
    You have been sig'd
  37. Not necessarily proof by AuraSeer · · Score: 1

    You didn't actually see it working. You saw it claim to be working.

    All you saw was a message from PB claiming that it kicked off a cheater. For all you know it kicked off an innocent person, and left one or more cheaters on the map.

    Don't get me wrong, I like the program and use it, but its own activity reports do not constitute proof of effectiveness.

  38. It's complicated by AuraSeer · · Score: 1

    The short version: if you do enough verification to be totally cheatproof, your game will be so slow as to be totally unplayable.

  39. I've used both of them. by Dolemite_the_Wiz · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The problem with both of them, at least when I last played them both, is that both of the anti-cheating devices are not associated with the companies of the games the devices are used for.

    I used Punk Buster with Quake 3 Gold and was not able to get it to work due to the lack of help from Id and a problem with XP that prevented the PB updates from fully setting.

    I used Cheating-Death when playing the Half-Life WW2 Mod 'Day of Defeat'. On the plus side, this program sucessfully weeded out all the hackers and cheaters very quickly. Updates were made much more frequently than VAC (Valve's Anti-Cheating solution) ever did. I LOVED that CD found the cheats and updated them within a week of being known. VAC? You would have to wait until they released their updates which were few and far between.

    The Drawback was that the program WAS developed independently of Valve and the program gave the playing experience many 'challenges'. Most of which were lag related.

    So yes, they work but the game companies need to work more closely and quickly with these solutions as they are EXCELLENT solutions to the cheating problems in on-line games.

    Dolemite
    ______________________________________

    --
    Save the World! Use a Quote!
  40. Not everyone good is a cheater. by AuraSeer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I once got 343 kills on a CS server, with maybe a dozen deaths, over the course of a whole day. I wasn't cheating, I was just a lot better than the people on the other team. And they absolutely refused to learn from their mistakes.

    Example 1: The idiot who always, always ran to the same hiding place to try for an ambush. After about two rounds, I started shooting through the crate to kill him. He claimed I was using a wall hack, but I really just knew he'd be sitting in the same place again.

    Example 2: The other idiot who didn't know the map. He kept accusing me of using a speed hack to get to the target before him, but the real problem was that he was taking the long way around.

  41. PB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    sorry for huge essay, but if you're not interested dont bother reading.

    I only have experience with Punkbuster on RTCW and Enemy Territory - playing, running servers and modding a large forum.

    Detecting cheats is the big selling point of PB, and fundamentally what it is for. How well it works at removing cheaters depends on your point of view. PB generally only picks up cheats the developers have found - those posted on cheater sites/forums or submitted by players who have come accross them. PB is then auto updated to scan the player's memory/hard disk and if it finds a match, the player gets kicked and the cheat violation logged on the server for the admin to look through and set a pernament ban.

    Evenbalance have no qualms admitting the software is unlikely to detect cheats that are kept private, i.e. someone who makes his own and keeps them to himself. There are exceptions to this, for example if someone just modifies a detected cheat and doesn't change what gets picked up, or its a simple game file modification and PB simply detects the files are not as they should be (not logged as a cheat violation, but still stops them being used). Further, the detections are always going to lag behind the cheats being made available - though as said in a post above, the effort for the hacker is liable to be significantly more than that for PB to pick it up. PB also get paid for it.

    So PB only picks up publicly available cheats? This in itself is more than worthwhile - you might still have cheaters, but maybe at most 10% (total guesstimate) of these guys can get past PB. 90% less cheating? Yes please. Sure I'd like 100%, but back on planet reality this isnt going to be a possibility any time soon. Anyone who cant figure that 90% less is massively better is either an idiot or likes cheating.

    There is a secondary cheat detection method that comes with PB, although it is less reliable and takes significantly more effort for the admin. PB can be used to return a screenshot portion from the player. With this, it is possible for the admin to find someone who is using even a private hack they made themselves that is not detected by PB. Admins can set PB to automatically take these screenshots from all players, and also they can take screenshots at specific moments from specific players. The system isnt exactly perfect though, the admin will have to regularily download and look through all the shots taken, so it takes a lot of admin time for a relatively tiny hit rate. For busy public servers, this is liable to not be worth the effort (except where admin has spotted a dodgy player and so gets screens from him specifically), for example I've downloaded several hundred of these screens and only picked up one player cheating with it. However, for clan matches, this becomes much more worthwhile - both because there are far fewer screens to look through and because the "value" of a detection is far higher. A further weakness is that not all players return a proper screenshot to the server, I'll not go into why but the function is hardly reliable, though evenbalance have said they are completely rewriting the code to improve it. I havent seen on any cheater forum that anyone has sucessfully managed to write code to bypass it yet though, like they did for CS (NB: PB now is very different from PB in CS, where it wasnt even integrated to the game properly).

    Actual detections are only part of the anti-cheat effect of PB however. The deterrent is at least as good as what it actually picks up. Nobody who has involved themselves in a bona fide community wants to get caught cheating, because they will lose their online buddies. And then there's the issue of having to buy a new game to play on their fave servers again...

    I said earlier that detections are the selling point of PB. As an admin, I dont find detections to be the actual number one feature. The best part of PB is the bans are by GUID - a one way hash of the CDKey. Banned players stay banned, for them to come back to your server me

    1. Re:PB by iseth · · Score: 1

      I agree that there are a few technical issues, including one that I have, and have heard of existing for others. Namely, PB with Enemy Territory seems to react badly to Certain nVidia GeForce drivers. I.E. causing the PC to completely freeze. Only does it on PB servers. So far, the only remedy is to revert to older video drivers, but this is a pretty big hassle, especially if I play a different game that requires the newer ones. So I'm not a huge fan of PB right now, as it's not exactly seamless.

    2. Re:PB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is a nvidia driver issue, not a punkbuster one. Maybe you should be no huge fan of nvidia instead.

      nvidia tech support said Thanks for your feedback. We have reproduced this problem and will resolve it in a future driver update.

    3. Re:PB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PB screen shots were easily defeated. I watched packets as they came in and had my cheats disable themselves while a screenshot was taken. During a game the cheats would turn off then on and I knew a screen shot was just sent but I was never caught. Plus screen shots dont detect aimbots, the biggest problem facing legit players. So what if I had a wallhack, I still got killed often because humans have split second reactions. If they're aim was better than mine, sure enough they got the kill. With an aimbot I just ran around headshotting people. In fact I would diable the wallhack most of the time since I didnt need it.

  42. We don't need to prevent cheating... by Singletoned · · Score: 1

    Personally I wouldn't mind if someone was using a cheat to play at my level. What I do mind is when someone uses a cheat to rape me. For me, as long as there is a ladder or ranking system so that I can play people of about the same level as me (whether lousy players with cheats or medium skill players), I don't mind too much about people's methods (but then I'm not good enough to be in it for the glory. I just play for the game).

    1. Re:We don't need to prevent cheating... by TLSPRWR · · Score: 1

      The problem with ranking systems: How would you ever really get better? I got good at Halo and BF1942 because I _had_ to be good in order to even survive. Defense is as important as a good offense.
      I don't know if I'd want to play with people my same skill level. Having more advanced people on a server is cool, because then someone can fly the helicopter in and drop the newbies off on the enemy base while defending them from above...
      Eh, I dunno. I say if a server has too many elite players or newbies on it, then find another server. It's not like there's a lack of servers.

    2. Re:We don't need to prevent cheating... by Singletoned · · Score: 1

      I suppose so, but it's never really much fun to play someone massively better than you.

      I wouldn't really gain much from playing against Andre Aggassi or Gary Kasparov. I'd get beatdown too much.

      I generally find that ladder systems are much better in the long run. There's enough variation that you do play people better (and worse) than you. But never by too much.

  43. Passworded servers? by Spokehedz · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I play on Passworded servers, most of the time. Keeping the players to a 'elite few' allows for quite a different game than on the public servers.

    Actually, this is the main reason Clans are formed. There just a bunch of people who want to play together, without all the idiots on the server with them. That, and the fact that if you play with the same people enough, you get to know who is good at what--and who to stay away from.

    Also, having a teamspeak server helps out--as having private and secure comms between teammates (and not having it sound like crap) helps out a bunch. I can't tell you how much better my game is, when I have a mic and all my teammates do too. Having them listen to you helps, but at least this way you can yell to your teammates when a sniper is around the corner. And that isn't cheating. It happens in real combat all the time. duh.

    Anyway... I think that the solution isn't having another client to check the client, but checking who you play with first.

  44. Yes by Xenothaulus · · Score: 1
    I had direct experience with them last night. I had installed the Galactic Conflict mod for BF1942, and jumped into the most popular server. Being a '42 veteran, it didn't take me long to discover all the unbalanced things and take direct advantage of them. So, as I was racking up the kills with the E-11 sniper rifle, someone, we'll call him/her x_player, accused me of using a hack. I laughed and then hunted that individual exclusively.

    About 5 minutes or so later, a sys message comes up: x_player is using hack #32432 (or whatever) and is being banned. I laughed so hard I couldn't play anymore. Talk about classic.

  45. Fast and effective UT protection by Ticklemonster · · Score: 1

    I play UT, and in our community, our admins ban together and share knowlege and we don't have much problem with rampant botters. Our protection give the player a shakedown regardless of if he's playing too well, sucks, or just stands facing a wall. If they are cheaters, they will be kicked, ips posted publicly, and banned communitywide. And our protection hardly slows anything down. I ping our server as well as most others at between 30 to 50.

    --
    Karma: Bad is the liberal way of saying this guy won't drink the kool aid here on slash dot. I wear my Karma with pride
    1. Re:Fast and effective UT protection by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I play UT, and in our community, our admins ban together and share knowlege and we don't have much problem with rampant botters. Our protection give the player a shakedown regardless of if he's playing too well, sucks, or just stands facing a wall. If they are cheaters, they will be kicked, ips posted publicly, and banned communitywide. And our protection hardly slows anything down.

      I call bullshit, I still can play UT on every server excecpt one, and I am the most notorious aimbotter UT has ever seen. I released the first aimbot for UT. I was the first one to ever code a team based radar. My whole clan aimbots, griefs etc. The UT admin community has NEVER managed to put together a ban on me that stuck on more than one set of servers (Gamebox) which bans my clantag, nickname plus all of my old IP's. Congrads to them.

  46. A Server Admin's Perspective by xTown · · Score: 1

    CD adds lag and uses system resources. Playing any game--we ran a Half-Life Firearms server--with and without Cheating-Death, you notice a difference, even if your ping stays mostly the same.

    It works fine. It catches cheaters.

    What it can't catch is people who exploit bugs in-game. Firearms, for example, had several exploits that we knew were out there, but didn't know how to reproduce or stop. You need to have good, trustworthy admins who aren't afraid to wield the ban stick. And they need to watch people.

  47. Simply put. by nekoes · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Do they work? Nope.
    Are they worth the effort? In my opinion, nope.

    Cheats will always be out there that cannot be detected, blocked, or otherwise foiled by these 'anti-cheats', so why bother to trouble the legit players with annoying software? At least in HL mods, where a seperate program must be run asside from the game. It's just not worth my time, so I avoid these servers like the plague. The actual amount of cheaters that play CS is probably a lot less than people would like to think, and it's not hard to find a cheater-less non-software regulated server. My tip is play on friendly fire servers, when a real cheater is around, usually the player base can deal with it themselves. Otherwise, nothing beats a well-admin'd server. Find a player community that you can play with and come to trust. Be a reg. It helps the game experience a lot, because you'll have friends that you can trust, and the server will hopefully be administrated well. That to me is a lot better than any big-brother cheat software.

    --
    Hey, it's my OPINION that dogs have eight legs and make a sound like a car horn every time they take a piss.
    1. Re:Simply put. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      or, you could always just match play... and not have to worry with lousey public servers ;o

  48. No, they don't work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Having used hacks for various online games (Counter Strike, Unreal Tournament, Quake 2, etc.) and having seen the source for them, and knowing many coders in the "aimbot" community very well, I can tell you there are plenty of cheaters out there.

    Now, some of them are obvious (like me) and just go on, cheat, laugh and leave. Others actually try to play themselves off as being "good" players, which seems silly to me.

    Cheating will never be prevented in online games that run on the PC platform. It's way too open. Game makers encourage people to make "mods". Beyond direct hacks for the games themselves, you have speed hacks, and ones that can hook into OGL to do various things to the graphics on the screen to help you out (ie, wireframe mode). Most aimbot coders are only motivated by anti-cheat technology. They see it as a coding around them as a challenge and a way to earn "scene points". I would also estimate, that for every aimbot/hack that is released to the public, there are two that are kept private.

    If you want a fair game, you would have a better chance on a console (other than the xbox) where the OS, Graphics cards, and parts of the game source code might not be as well known and easily manipulated. Of course, then you have to deal with the llamas with game geneies

    The best bet for cheat free gaming is to play on private servers with the same people over time, that you know don't cheat.

  49. CD KEY by king-manic · · Score: 1

    Think of cd key banning as
    1) punishing cheaters
    2) a evolutionary force to weed out dumb people who don't secure their computers
    3) a way to ensures that people smarten up and don't give important info online to random people
    4) it forces cheaters to get more cd-keys. makign it harder for them to play.

    All around, it's a huge bennifit. As long as there are few false positives then it's good. The people who get scammed should know better. And even when they do it's not my problem.

    --
    "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
    1. Re:CD KEY by Pvt_Waldo · · Score: 1

      This is about how Valve's Steam system works with VAC (Valve Anti Cheat).

      VAC doesn't get updated REALLY fast, and it doesn't catch every cheat. Those who use the latest "cutting edge" cheats can still cheat. HOWEVER, here's the big difference: if it catches you, you're screwed - banned for 5 years from ALL Valve game servers running cheat detection. Currently this is about 85% of all servers running Counter-Strike, Day of Defeat, etc.

      So the basic model for VAC is to have not the best cheat detection, but by BY FAR the strongest penalty for being caught.

      So if you're a cheater, Valve's being like old Dirty Harry. "Was it 5 bullets, or 6? Feeling lucky, punk?"

    2. Re:CD KEY by king-manic · · Score: 1

      strict punishments are good no matter the way you catche them. If it bans the cd-key. still a cd-key is only worth $20 USd so it's a relativly tame punishment.

      --
      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
  50. Spanish Lesson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're wrong, but understandably so.

    The correct phrase is "mano y mano". The original Spanish phrase does indeed translate literally as "hand and hand", but it is idiomatically equivalent to the English phrase "man-to-man".

    The English phrase "hand-to-hand" refers to close quarters physical combat without weapons, which is not appropriate to the context.

    Bios_Hakr had it right phonetically as the "y" in Spanish is pronounced the same way as "i" is pronounced in Spanish: with the long "e" sound found in English.

    The phrase is also occasionally encountered as "mano i mano" in Spanish, though I am a bit fuzzy on when "i" is an appropriate substitution for "y" (both meaning "and"). Perhaps it is one of the many differences between European and Mexican Spanish? I don't claim to be fluent.

  51. So change the paradigm for games..... by phouka · · Score: 2, Interesting


    I think that most people are missing the point in their furor over cheating.

    The real issue is one of a level playing field, right? That's the basic problem with cheating: it unbalances the game in favor of one player.

    That in itself isn't a big deal. Lots of things unbalance a game: hardware (if my bigger badder machine draws frames four times as fast as yours, I'm probably gonna kick yer butt more often than not), network latency, skill, ... and cheating.

    Obviously it's easy to deal with hardware, latency, and skill: use some sort of game-matching system to pair people up appropriately. That leaves cheating.

    It seems to me that the most effective way to combat cheating is in your game design. For instance, a game that gradually tilts things in favor of the loser (say, by giving them advantageous starting positions or any of a million other things) helps bring balance back to the playing field.

    Someone with true skill is still going to be able to rock: they'll just overcome a disadvantage. Someone cheating is going to find their cheats less and less effective as the game goes on.

    Just some thoughts....

    Pooks

    1. Re:So change the paradigm for games..... by Viptorian · · Score: 1

      While it makes sense in theory, there is a problem. If you do things like the give loser an advantage, you essentially punish those who are better and make them less "good." What this does is make those who have the actual skill to compete at the top have to get even better to beat the advantages given to the loser. Eventually, those who are really good (or cheating), will get better again, making the advantages have to go up to level things out. Its not that an unbalance playing field is bad, because if skill counts for nothing, then there is no point in learning. however, its the unfair, unstopible advantages that bug people. I can be the best sniper in the world, but if you can see through the wall I'm hiding behind, my shot doesn't mean a thing because you can sneak up on me and kill me.

  52. Admins by xNoLaNx · · Score: 0

    I think the important factor is management. The anticheat programs are good, and I've seen lots of benefits from them, but they are part of a management tool. The admins still have to watch the server and take care of the system. Then it becomes a secure and fun server.

  53. Cheaters serve a useful purpose.. by Tikiman · · Score: 2, Funny

    What else can we blame when get our butts kicked?

  54. Would YOU wanna be in a firefight with this guy? by slappyjack · · Score: 1

    The only way I even have the slightest chance is if I cheat.

    Before I get into this, let me just say that I am one of those guys thats in the bottom 10% of FPS shooter players, but I LOVE playing these games. I play FPS team games whenever I have the chance and for the most part, that's unfortunately not very often. I constantly get my ass kicked by people who are good, people who cheat, and people who are just plain friggin lucky. There are times when I get so frustrated I belt out the occational "Jesus Christ! your older brother load the latest hack on your machine or something?" but who doesn't?

    If I have the time to totally zone out and play for a few hours straight I can see that I do get a little better over time, and thats fun, but the real enjoyment I get is when I'm playing on a really good team that plays as one.

    Guys who think like the poster above are true examples of the "American Hero Syndrome." They can't comprehend having fun unless they're the top of the heap, king of the kill, fragmaniacical; in other words "special." Everyone wants to be Special these days, and very few are content being part of the action and doing whatever small part they're pathetic skills are capable of adding.

    I, and other craptastic players like me, are just tickled pink to get the shit blown out of them for 30 minutes just to find themselves in the right place at the right time to win the round for their team . (sounding a little self-righteous? maybe so. whatever.)

    Wanna be the top of the heap? Winning a game that friggin' important to your screwed up self-esteem? Then install some bots on your machine, make them stupid, and spank their asses. Leave the general public the hell alone. We paid just as much as you did to have fun playing a game, you assholes.

    "People who cheat make Baby Jesus cry."

  55. What about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hypothetically, we know how the client's executable and data will be layed out in memory, what would be the problem with the server periodically asking for checksums of particular subsets of it? It would require more space on the server's side, but on the client's, they're guarunteed to have all that data, uncorrupted, in memory. For any cutting-edge game, circumventing it would require enough memory that any player wanting to cheat should see a significant, hopefully prohibitive, performance penalty. Am I missing something?

  56. Xbox live for PC by bfkDW · · Score: 1

    Personally I think the anti-cheat software programs are a bit of a hassle. I wish more developers would take the time as Blizzard has to create their own gaming environment online where they can moderate what's going on and ban cheaters. If someone did the same thing Blizzard has done but made a buisness out of it and hosted games from different developers and let those developers moderate their own games so that they can ban the CD keys of cheaters then I think we'd see a decline in cheating Wait a second... That's just like Xbox live...