Working Around Bad Luck on the Resume?

Dodger asks: "A year ago I was laid off from my job after 2 1/2 years, shortly after the product I was working on shipped. Later that year, a company moved me 1500 miles from Texas to California, to start working on a promising project, just to have the plug pulled by the corporation that funded it five weeks later, which resulted in another layoff. Now, there's a period of job seeking followed by a five week period of employment, followed by the current job seeking period on my resume. When the companies I interview with ask about that situation I simply explain, while trying not to whine or complain. What do other Slashdot readers do to make 'bad luck' (or bad employer choices) look less bad on their resume, and sound less bad in interviews?"

Comments

Quick and Dirty

[Anonymous Coward]

If the person interviewing you is a white coder who reads Slashdot tell them your job was outsourced.

If anyone knew

[smccurry]

If anyone knew, they would probably be working rather than reading slashdot.

Re:If anyone knew

[Docrates]

Not true. Here's what you do:

Say that the period of unemployment was actually you being a freelance IT consultant, then add that those brief jobs you got were consulting projects meant to be temporary.

When they ask why you don't want to be a consultant anymore, tell them that the economy is getting better and you feel like it's a good time to get back on the job market.

This will also make you look like you don't HAVE to get the job (although if you did you would certainly commit to it 100%), which rises their perception of you.

Sounds like a sleazy thing to do? well, that's real life for you...

Re:If anyone knew

[TopShelf]

Another option is to simply leave off the super-short term stints. In these times, it's not unusual for someone to go several months between positions...

Re:If anyone knew

[Anonymous Coward]

Work only for big companies with deep pockets and ask for very high compensation. You won't get a good compensation if you don't have the opportunity to screw it big. So, as you can see, you will likely fail, but they won't admit it because they are paying you the big bucks.

Admiting that you are a failure is like admitting that they are a failure. You just go to work everyday with a smile and do things so-so... Eventually the project will fail, but you stayed late many days and you always were there to help, you just failed because you are incompetent, but they won't admit it.

I've always been excellent on my jobs and I always lost my job when I finished. Now I always EXTEND... my job by delivering not so good stuff and therefore they always need me to fix it. Also I always orgaqnize meetings to resolve issues and force people to stay in meetings even if they don't need to. I say the opposite of course, but I always ask them to participate and let them know *how important they are* to define things. The result is always poor, documents are reviewed endlessly and my job is so secure now...

Sorry guys, that's just the truth, I have a family to feed and property to buy. If being proficient and fast were profitable, that would be where I would like to be, but now I prefer the easy life of having a job for life, even if that means I have to do overtime every single day of my fuckedup life.

Doing overtime is a sign that the company is not doing the right thing. Who am I to change that? If I could sell what I do and not my time, things would be different. I can do in 15 minutes what for others takes months if not their whole lifes, but they pay me by the hour. All software engineers are replaceable, go figure where did they learn that.

Re:If anyone knew

[Prior Restraint]

Hear! Hear!

On my resume, my employment history tends to look something like this:

• 1998-2001: Company 1
• 2001-Present: Company 2

Everyone who interviews me simply assumes I've had continuous employment, and I see no need to disabuse them of that notion.

Re:If anyone knew

[Wolfier]

Thanks for the tips.

I'll know exactly what happens when I'm interviewing the next candidate who says this.

Re:If anyone knew

[dubl-u]

1998-2001 [...]2001-Present [...] Everyone who interviews me simply assumes I've had continuous employment

I've interviewed circa a dozen people in the last couple of weeks, and I see this style much more than I used to. When I see only years in a resume, I assume it's because they're hiding something. I much prefer to see a month-based approach that's honest about gaps.

Re:If anyone knew

[chunkwhite86]

Another option is to simply leave off the super-short term stints. In these times, it's not unusual for someone to go several months between positions...

But employers don't like resume gaps. They will want to know what you were doing in that time. Working "short-term temporary projects" sounds much better than "uuhhh... umm... looking for a job?".

Just my two cents. See you later, Space Cowboys!

Re:If anyone knew

[Anonymous Coward]

I think all job seekers should go on zero-value interviews for jobs they already know they don't want. Even if you don't want to do this while you're looking, try it to stay entertained between your job acceptance and your start date.

I had a panel interview once in this type of situation: For some reason the employer made an appointment a month out, and in the intervening time I had found and accepted a great job. I didn't cancel the interview, because hey, it gets me out of the house - and maybe it's even a better job. You never know, right?

When I walked in and found it was a panel interview, I just immediately got the idea of providing no new information. Whatever they asked, I would give a politician-style answer (e.g. one that seems like a solid answer but doesn't really say much), and then redirect the question to another one of the panelists.

So basically, any topic that was raised would "somehow" turn into a discussion (or even argument!) between two or more of the interviewers. This was like shooting fish in a barrel: There was so little challenge to it that after a while it got dull. So, to spice it up a bit, I made a (shocking!) comment: I told them I didn't appreciate being brought into a situation where they were airing their own internal issues instead of actually interviewing me. They all apologized and said they would stick to the point. After that, it became *much* harder to make them argue with each other without revealing what I was doing - but I still pulled it off a couple times.

They actually offered me the job. Idiots. I'm sure your panelists are *much* smarter...

Re:If anyone knew

[YouHaveSnail]

You can slide furthur on bullshit, than you can on concrete


Guess he forgot to tell you the down sides to this philosophy:

1. When sliding on bullshit, you mostly go downhill.

2. You end up covered in, well, shit.

3. It's hard to find a job (or a date) when you're full of shit.

Re:If anyone knew

[Evil MarNuke]

1. Sliding on concrete is a short run before a sharp drop off, the curb.

2. Shit is easy to wash off. Scars are hard to hide.

3. You haven't done a lot of dating have you?

Re:If anyone knew

[DFossmeister]

Month-based job listings are so tedious. One time when I was laid off, they brought in job-placement and employment specialists to help everyone polish their resume, teach those who didn't know how to do an interview, what to say about being laid off etc. One thing they specifically mentioned was the way you list your previous positions. They recommended just listing the years because most people reading the resume were only looking at the highlights anyway.

The sole purpose of a resume is to get you an interview. You should not lie on it about anyting, but simply putting the year in which you worked at a job is not lying--its shorthand.

Re:If anyone knew

[dubl-u]

Your "logic" has massive holes in it. For starters, a gap in employment tells you nothing at all about the person, the circumstances of their leaving the position, their suitability to work where you work...

I will be excited to see you tell me where I said that.

you sound exactly like the sorts of HR weenies that are making a mess of companies large and small

Bzzzzt! Wrong. But thanks for playing.

I'm a programmer, hiring other programmers. Like most, I have gaps in my resume; some are vacations, some aren't. When I see gaps, I may ask people about them. I'm hiring in an area that was strongly affected by the boom, so it's no black mark to say, "Yeah, my startup went bust and it's been ugly out there."

What I object to is people trying to hide things from me, either in an interview or a resume. I've certainly interview people with the year-only resumes, but I've quizzed them much more closely on both dates and on the rest of their stuff. I like it better when they're honest up front, both on gaps and on everything else.

Be honest, tell the truth

[fembots]

I believe every employer appreciates a bit of honesty.

Re:Be honest, tell the truth

[dreamchaser]

Sorry, but you don't get a cookie. Your job in an inteview is not to make the other side believe you are more valuble than you yourself beielve you are. It is to present yourself as best you can while being as honest as you can.

As a hiring manager who has interviewed hundreds of candidates over the years, I can tell you that if I detect the slightest wiff of BS, it's game over.

Be honest, be yourself, be professional and stress your strengthes while being honest about your weaknesses if asked. Honesty will get you the job long before 'marketing' will.

Re:Be honest, tell the truth

[El]

No, I think interviews are like small claims court. In court, the judge assumes both sides are lying equally, and splits the difference. In a job interview, the interview assumes you are exagerating your skills. If you give a brutally honest assessment of your weaknesses, the job is going to go the the bullshitter that didn't... remember, when they ask if you're a god, tell 'em you're a god!

Re:Be honest, tell the truth

[dreamchaser]

Well I can tell you that if I hired you and then found out you'd exaggerated your skills, you wouldn't last more than a month. In the long run it pays to be honest.

Certainly you should present yourself in the best light possible, but that doesn't mean you exaggerate or lie.

Re:Be honest, tell the truth

[Epistax]

I agree completely. I've never hired anyone, but I've been hired before (feels good). It seems to me your resume tells if you're able to do the job. Your interview tells what kind of person you are. If you're a liar, they'll figure it out at the interview. If you'd lie on your resume, you'll lie in the interview, they'll notice it, not say a thing, and you're finished.

Once you get the interview, you're qualified for the job (unless you lied), or they have some other interest in you (which might be as good/better than the job). Some people are more qualified for the job, but they might not be as personable. You'll get a job before these people every time. If you're the one getting interviews and not getting a job, you probably have a problem. It's usually that you do not act like yourself, such as putting on an image you view as confident but they'll see as arrogant.

Set up a mock interview and video tape yourself. Look at the stupid expression on your face (yes it will be stupid). Fix it. Look in the mirror. Then go over what you said in the interview. Completely scripted responses are easily noticeable and not appreciated.

There are two primary schools for the interviewer: new school and old school. Old school is more receptive to phoniness and arrogance, while new school sees that as being afraid to show yourself, and think you might not be stable. Try to judge the type the interviewer is (note that age is not a factor). Engineers and programmers are more likely to see new school (which I assume most readers will get). Every interview I've had but one has been new school. Those are better/more fun anyway!

Re:Be honest, tell the truth

[Ironica]

Your job in an inteview is not to make the other side believe you are more valuble than you yourself beielve you are. It is to present yourself as best you can while being as honest as you can.

Very true. The folks who are saying "lie your ass off" have misunderstood the art of careful wording.

My resume lists all gaps in employment as freelance work. If anyone asks, I've done some grant writing for one non-profit (from which I have an excellent reference, and no need to mention he's known me since birth) and some desktop publishing, computer repair, and one-on-one training for various folks. All true, paid work. They don't ask if it's for friends and family, and I don't volunteer that it is.

When I was taking resume orders several times a day at Kinko's, and therefore was expected to be a cut-rate resume consultant, some of the stuff I learned (from various sources provided by the company) was:

- Only go back five jobs or fifteen years. Older experience isn't going to be considered relevant, and more than five jobs just looks... tacky. If there's something a ways back that you really, really want on there, create a section called "Other Relevant Experience" and list it there more informally.

- For short-term jobs, leave them off unless they look *really* good for some reason. For example, for two months I was a Support Engineer for a telecommunications testing equipment manufacturer, which involved phone and email support as well as writing custom scripts and conducting user training courses. I ended up quitting because I couldn't stand commuting 50 miles each way every day for $32k a year, but it's definitely the most impressive-looking technical experience I have. (Not the most useful on a day-to-day basis, but whatever.)

- Keep it to two pages. This used to be one page, until people started bouncing around jobs a lot.

- Start with either education or experience, depending on which looks better. If you have an advanced degree, or a BS from a well-regarded institution, you probably want to start with that. If you barely got your BA in English at the state uni because you were too busy playing computer games, but used to be Director of Technology for someplace, start with experience.

And this is one I picked up on my own: never, EVER put the word "sales" in your resume, unless you're looking for a sales job. I made the mistake of including "supported Corporate Accounts Manager on sales calls" on my monster.com resume and got drowned in listings for every sales job imaginable.

Re:Be honest, tell the truth

[dubl-u]

If you give a brutally honest assessment of your weaknesses, the job is going to go the the bullshitter that didn't... remember, when they ask if you're a god, tell 'em you're a god!

If you want to work for fools, this is probably good advice. Otherwise, read on.

Since I'm hiring programmers this very week, the topic's on my mind. The people I was most likely to interview

• followed instructions: they sent the required details in the right format to the right address;
• addressed the requirements in the cover letter: some just gave a few paragraphs, and some replied inline to each item in the posting;
• were honest: when somebody told me what they did and didn't know, their honesty was a big plus.

And then in the interviews, important factors have been

• asking good questions, both about our business and about the technical side;
• listening well, and demonstrating that they get what we're talking about;
• communicating clearly about what they've done and what they know;
• being willing to challenge us on some things: we don't want to hire yes men, but neither do we want people who argue for the sake of it;
• not telling us any of their previous employers' secrets: if they'll break somebody else's NDA, I'm sure they'll break ours;
• really knowing anything they put on their resume as knowing, and
• being able to walk the walk: the second round of interviews is sitting down and pair programming.

If I find out somebody is bullshitting me, they've just stepped on the fast slidewalk out of the office.

Everybody has gaps in their technical knowledge, and I'm glad to work with that. It's impossible to put together a team where everybody knows everything, but if I know individual weaknesses I can make sure that at least one person is stellar in each important area. In my experience, if people lie to me about one thing, they'll lie to me about quite a lot of things.

One word:

[ZxCv]

Lie.

No, really, just be honest like you already have been. The people interviewing you are human too, and they can understand bad luck like anyone else. Just put your best qualities far enough out there and layoffs like this shouldn't even be a factor to the interviewer.

Re:One word:

[Anonymous Coward]

As someone who is watching his four female managers hire two candidates to help him out, I can say for sure that this is not true. They'll disqualify you for any reason they want. They rejected one perfectly suitable resume because his last job was as a magician at kids' parties; they said that it indicated that he didn't want the position as a career. I'd say your best bet is to say that it's been a bad economy, and that you spent that time looking, unless you gained experience that you'd like to use. Then again, they might misinterpret that, too.

Re:One word:

[Anonymous Coward]

-1, Oddly Sexist

Re:One word:

[flint]

I disagree. It really depends on your audience. If you are speaking to someone who's a peer or possibly a supervisor/manager of your peers they will empathize.

However, if you are talking to someone from Personnel of a really high level manager who's got to sign off on you -- it's a different story. These people look predominantly at negative qualifiers. If you blame anything on bad luck, the market, poor management decisions, etc they will view this as an indication that you will give up when facing challenges and you will blame it on anything but yourself. They will interpret the smallest detail of your resume or interview as a microcosm of you. You're not a can-do, team-oriented person. You tend to blame others. You can't take responsibility for a mistake.

So, I'd recommend that you figure out how to creatively deal with these gaps in the way that minimizes dishonesty but puts the best spin on the situation.

Re:One word:

[Elwood P Dowd]

That's good evidence that your managers are worthless. So perhaps you'll consider a revision:

If the interviewers seem like worthless fools obsessed with appearances and not concerned with getting their job done properly, lie. (Or walk out the door, if you'd like to avoid a similar mark on your resume after they fuck you over.)

If the interviewers seem like they genuinely care about getting the best applicant for the job, just tell them the truth.

CowboyNeal Defense

[Bishop, Martin]

When they ask questions of prior jobs that were unsatisfactory, simply yell "That's none of your concern, you insensative clod!"

Be honest

[RedHatLinux]

but be positive ... Don't whine or pout. Just explain the situation, highlight any positives and then try to steer the focus back on the better parts of your resume.

I just needed some personal time...

[Anonymous Coward]

...to bond with my fellow inmates.

Been there, done that..

[JoeLinux]

Step #1:

Get a job. ANY JOB. Showing you have a job indicates that you are a "go getter", willing to do what it takes. Trust me.

Step #2:

Hit the Pavement. When a job in your field opens up, even if it is a step down from your current pay grade, take it.

Step #3:

If your field is networking, start doing networks for churches/schools/etc. for free. Include it on your resume. If coding, get into an open source project. If business or law, go to hell. ;)

Those will drastically help you reinforce the idea that you are not lazy, just unfortunate.

This shouldn't even be a question

[buckeyeguy]

Don't dodge, hedge, or otherwise try to avoid your real work experiences. It's just not worth it. And if you've worked in the same geographical area for awhile, you will find that everyone in IT knows everyone else in IT (maybe 5 times removed, like the Kevin Bacon thing), and your history will be known anyway.

Besides, so what if a project fell flat because someone else pulled the plug? You took a chance on being part of it; sounds like a good resume item to me.

The reason you were dismissed

[MSBob]

You weren't dismissed in spite of your project successfully shipping. You were disposed of because your project shipped. It's not uncommmon where moronic managers treat developers like construction crews. Hire when the work picks up and let go when the work is done. Most managers are too dim to understand the difference between skilled and unskilled labour.

Just don't tell them the truth...

[beni1207]

...that you got fired for looking at goatse at work

Dogbert

[binaryDigit]

Reminds me of a funny Dogbert strip:

Always put impressive but impossible to verify jobs on your resume.

Employer: So Mr. Dogbert, it says here that you worked as a senior spy for the CIA.

Dogbert: Yes, and I was told to kill anyone who asks for details about it.

Or omit the records

[nounderscores]

A lot of people have had jobs that they don't talk about. Pick one or two jobs that have you had good references from put them on. Then say that you were studying in the gaps.

If your referees can confirm you have the skills required for the job, you'll have a solid chance.

Simple. Be honest...

[ThogScully]

It'll be worth it in the end. Just doin't hesitate to tell the truth and when/if you get the job, you'll be far better off. Lying will only make them question you and give them a good reason not to employ you.
-N

My Resume Looks Much Worse -- How I Deal

[philovivero]

I've had literally three companies go out of business on me, and one company I ethically could not work for (owner was trying to bilk millionaires out of investment cash) in the last 3.5 years. So 3.5 years, 4 companies.

One recruiter I talked to started the conversation saying "I know the job market recently is what's to blame for your spotty employment" and then only ten minutes later said "My client is looking for someone who doesn't jump from job to job so much," so even someone who acknowledges the reason for your problems can very quickly forget it and start thinking you're a job jumper.

So how did I solve this problem? I simply grouped all the jobs I worked for in the past 3.5 years as bullet items under a single 3.5-year job of Database Architect Consultant.

This helps a lot, because consultants are supposed to have multiple employers (it doesn't hurt that I've also done some consulting work during this time).

The problem then is that when you talk to companies, they assume you want to continue consulting. So begin the interview with "I've been doing W-2 consulting, and I really want the stability and long-term relationships I can get with a full-time job."

It's really an interesting perception that people get when they look at a resume with many short-term jobs on it. They just can't get over the fact that it may be completely not your fault and they still somehow blame you.

You need to understand this psychology and then mask that fact from them (for their own good!). Otherwise they will end up hiring some lamer who happened to work for a company that lasted a lot longer than your companies even though said lamer isn't as qualified as you.

Re:My Resume Looks Much Worse -- How I Deal

[gcaseye6677]

I love how a lot of employers look for someone who has been in jobs for a long period of time, but they're not about to keep you employed for a long period of time.

Just tell the truth

[Saanvik]

It sounds like you're doing the right thing.

As a hiring manager in a software company let me tell you, you're situation doesn't look bad, assuming it's exactly as you tell it. If I bring someone in for an interview, and they tell me what you've been through, I'd be more likely to empathize with their situatition rather than hold it against them. So, just tell the truth.

The one thing that might be a problem is getting to the interview. You may need to do a bit of work on your cover letter to make it plain that the funding was cut rather than you losing the job because of cause.

One other thing - you may not want to include a 5 week job on your resume. Unless you gained a lot of important job experience in 5 weeks, I'd be likely to write the entire thing off. Since resume space is limited, you may want to include a former job that is more relevant to the position you are applying to.

You're already ahead of the game...

[cbreaker]

... by getting interviews in the first place.

Re:-1 Troll, but:

[LearnToSpell]

It is best if you can account for all of your time while unemployed.

What if you can account for most of it, barring some minor blackout periods where you wake up in the back of a hardware store, naked from the waist down lying in a pool of your own vomit? Theoretically speaking, I mean.

What is the US obsession with gaps on your resume

[rogerbo]

I don't understand why in the US it is such an issue with having a gap in your resume? When I was 25 I quit my job in Australia and spent a full year travelling, living off my savings going through Asia/India/Europe. I told this to people from the US and they were horrified? How will you explain this to employers, they said? I tell them the truth, I decided to take a year off and travel.

Here in Australia this is quite common and perfectly acceptable, also in europe it's no big deal many people over there do this.

So if I lived in the US and I say I decided I didn't want to work because I had saved enough money to live on and I wanted to travel/write the american novel/sit at home and play video games/whatever, exactly why should an employer care?

Same applies for periods of unemployment, why does a gap matter?

Works for me every time.

[Kenja]

Tell them you had to take an extended leave of absence due to a death in your family. If they try to verify this, kill a family member.

Re:Works for me every time.

[sharkey]

If they try to verify this, kill a family member.

If you have no family, go down to the morgue and claim the first unidentified body as your dear departed $RELATIVE.

The best thing to do...

[jay-oh-eee!]

The best thing to do would to simply explain to them that the man's trying to hold you down. Also, that you'll program for food.

Hey, if they read slashdot, you're trouble is over

[i)ave]

... just tell them, " I'm glad you brought this up, and even happier you read /., because they actually posted my submission on this very topic and an hour later I had excellent karma "

Re:Simple. Be honest...

[ChartBoy]

Lying can also give them grounds to fire you at a later date.

hard to get

[DarkSkiesAhead]

One technique that can be applied to many job interviews is to turn the situation around and make them try to sell the job to you. If you have a history of being let go by former employers stress that it's important that your next job be with a stable, successful company and ask pointed questions about the new company. Let them try to convince you that the new company is respectable and trustworthy. Then they'll feel like they've invested something in you by convincing you.

Be honest

[merodach]

If the layoffs are not your fault then the employer won't care as long as you are honest regarding the reasons. Don't sound bitter, and above all, DON'T make it sound as though the layoffs were a result of poor management. If pressed for details be very discreet and non-judgemental in the response - a "The company decided that they could no longer provide work for me" sounds MUCH better than "they canned me as soon as they finished using me". I as a manager don't mind seeing a period of unemployment if it is not a result of the person's actions and with the collapse of IT jobs that's unfortunately become common.

Resume is more important

[originalhack]

The key is getting past people who might toss your resume because of the short stint. If they took the trouble to even have a conversation, you are past that.

I'd suggest you list the dates as... "10/2003-11/2003 (project cancelled)" to prevent the quick discard. After that, just be honest about your history and show no bitterness.

I've hired over 100 engineers. One short hop (less than 2 or 3 years) requires explaining. Two short hops get the resume tossed.

Re:Resume is more important

[Anonymous Coward]

Two short hops get the resume tossed.
Not for nothing, but you sound like a nightmare hiring manager, who tosses out resumes for any or no reason, and pattern matches on buzzwords they don't understand. Got any other dogmatic rules for "tossing resumes" without reading them?

don't worry

[AvitarX]

The fact that you were able to get hired twice in your proffession during the down economy is an asset not a burdon.

The fact that you were moved to CA either means you are desperate or worth a big investment. Make sure it spins good (even if it was desperation).

If the out of work periods are short enough I would take it as a good sign that you are being snapped up, not bad that you were layed off.

Don't lie. If you do anyone that has a personal reason for not liking you could possibly get HR to look into it and you could be fired for lieing on your resume.

Just remember that your against people who were likly under-employed or out of work with no short projects inbetween.

None of this is expierience (except the lieing thing) but it is what maked personal sense to me. So if someoen with actual expierence in your shoes disagrees they may be more correct then me.

Start your own company

[t0qer]

Depends on where you are in life but..

When the layoff started happening I must have gone through about 4 companies in 3 years. (Silicon valley, it was nuts here!) It even got to the point where I could "smell" when a layoff was going to occur for anyone. Sort of like how one minute all the zebra's are munchin grass, and the next minute, before the lion goes into chase mode, they all look at that one and say, "He's next to go!"

I got so sick of blurring my resume, lying, filling in the blanks, stretching out employment dates, overstating my job and depending on someone else for a paycheck that the last layoff was the last straw. I flipped my middle finger in the direction of all these guys "charging" me for doing my W-2 while they loaned themselves a mountain of company money to buy themselves a house while saying "Hey taxman, this isn't personal income, this is a "LOAN" from the company to me, haha on you"

So I started my own company. No big deal. Just go down to your city office, pay your business tax, and if you want a corporation (I went LLC) just have an agent like thecompanycompany.com fill out your paperwork with the state for about $800.

You know what you do for a living now right? Why not just offer it up to the general public with a real company. Call your old boss up and tell him you've started your own deal, and if he knows anyone looking for help. Chances are he'll hire you or pass your name around.

There was this other slashdot article a while back about going on your own. I recomend searching the archives for it.

Re:Lie!

[NanoGator]

"Just falsify it! Every other bastard does..."

Not a smart idea. I was reading on CNN the other day that Yahoo's got a "see your background" service going up soon. (Hotjobs or something?) Evidently, there are web services out there where a potential employer can look you up and verify where you've worked etc. If that doesn't sync up with what you say in the interview/resume, then a lever is pulled and you fall through a trap door. Yahoo's service is meant to provide somebody with a means of seeing what's on their record (For a modest price...) and get it rectified if it's wrong.

Lying in the digital age is a bad idea.

Re:What is the US obsession with gaps on your resu

[rogerbo]

Yep I lived in the US for 1 year. I'm just amazed that they've managed to convince 250 million people that working your whole life and resfusing to take your one week off a year vacation for fear thet it might cause you to be passed over for a promotion is a good thing.

It seems to me in the US the priorities between corporate life and "lifestyle" or personal development are all out of whack and that's why even small gaps in your resume are an issue in the US but no big deal in other western countries.

Still doing that, my priorities are different.

[twitter]

Your three steps kind of fall apart when you have left your mom's house and have a family. The attitude is good, but your steps drastically change. They become:

1. Secure any and all benifits from your job or state. The state will pay you to find a job that does not waste your talent and experience. Unless you can find a job that pays substantially more and makes use of the resources society has already put into educating you, KEEP LOOKING. Take anyjob when the benifits run out.
2. Calculate how long your savings will hold out before you have to sell your house. Few people really have the recomended six months of salary saved. Know when you have to make those hard choices between the roof over your head and the children's education and make them in advance.
3. Hit the pavement for yourself first. The only kind of job you are going to get this way is a sales job at a small company. Everyone else posts their jobs on the web or on mailing lists. Work in a warehouse at a tech firm before you flip burgers. Sell before you sweat and sell yourself to small companies that can use what you know before you sell loans at the bank.
4. Volunteer work should be ongoing, work or no work, but you should intensify it when you have the time.

I'm ready to tell any interviewer exactly what I've done. There is NOTHING lazy about taking advantage of state benifits. It shows you knew where to look, took some of your tax money back the way it was supposed to be used and cared about your career. In fact, it's lazy and counterproductive to just take anyjob without first looking. It takes worlds of industry to fill out job applications, and cold call. By the time you are finished, everyone in the world should have seen your resume too. Many people will think I'm a pest, but no one can accuse me of being lazy.

Here are some tips

[airjrdn]

As someone currently hiring 4 positions, I can offer you this...

Be honest (about downtime in your case especially)
Don't exaggerate your achievements
Stay calm, don't bounce around in your chair
Appear interested and "aware"
Don't say "yeah" or "ok" after every sentence the interviewer says
Smile

Also, I know the IT scene is tough right now, but from the interviewer's perspective, it's hard finding good people too. We typically hire 2 to 4 IT staff each year, and finding good ones is a chore. I wish I had a dollar for every DBA interview candidate I've talked to that couldn't write a simple select statement when asked to. Bear in mind, their resume statement that they were "SQL Experts", or had x years of experience with SQL Server (yes, we're a Microsoft shop).

It's about what you do when you're our of work

[lateral]

Being out of work is not a problem, it's a fact of life in the industry. What's important is how you deal with it.

I hire developers and I'd guess about half of the people I interview are out of work. Being laid off is often a matter of luck so that actually doesn't interest me very much. How the candidate has responded to being out of work interests me a lot. It's a chance for me to see how they have responded to a real life problem. What are they doing with their time? Do they still programme for fun? Are they keeping their existing skills honed? What are they learning to give themselves an edge?

An out of work developer who hasn't written any code for nine months is completely different from one who's putting together their own Linux distribution.

L.

Don't ask, don't tell

[El]

I'd omit anything that is difficult to explain from your resume. In fact, instructor for the resume writing class I went to advised me not to include a job history going back more than 10-15 years, since it leads to age discrimination (yes, this means you need to omit your graduation date as well). Managers are only going to glance at your resume for 20-30 seconds, just looking for any reason to reject it. Don't give them a reason. Also, it is a good idea to rewrite your resume to show your qualifications for each individual job you're applying to. Not that I'd advise you to lie, but you need to emphasize the applicable skills and experience, and omit the inapplicable ones.

Always be in school

[4/3PI*R^3]

Make a point of always being in school or some sort of formal training. If you have a bad lapse of employment you can simply drop the employment and document the time as furthering your education or expanding your skills in school.

This also has the added benefit that it really does further your education and expand your skills.

One last point. Being in school does not imply you have to be the student. A lot of technical colleges need adjunct instructors to teach a few evening and weekend courses. Putting on your resume that you taught impresses far too many people but it works.

Kill a family member, eh?

[sczimme]

One from your family or the interviewer's?

I guess it would work either way...

Re:What is the US obsession with gaps on your resu

[fingusernames]

It's due to what some consider the extreme American "work ethic." Here, you are expected to work hard, all the time, preferably six or seven days a week, until you "retire" (more and more people now work during "retirement"). While this makes having "a life" difficult, it is what led to America becoming a global economic, military, and political uberpower in, what, a couple mere centuries. Old habits die hard. It is why you are lucky to get two paid weeks of vacation here, vs. six or more in some European nations.

This expected work ethic is not compatible with taking extended breaks. Being out of work is one thing... being voluntarily out of work is often seen as laziness.

On the other hand, of course, such a work ethic is, generally, a common trait of all really successful people, regardless of nationality or where they live. I guess in America, most businesses want to hire people who have the drive to be successful in life. I just wish they would accept that sometimes, success oriented people also want to pause and smell the rose.

Larry

Re:What is the US obsession with gaps on your resu

[BitterOak]

I don't understand why in the US it is such an issue with having a gap in your resume?

Very simple reason. During that "gap" you might have had a job and make a complete pig's breakfast out of it. By accounting for all your time, your prospective employer has a chance to track down all your past employers and find out if you screwed up in a major way. If you have gaps all over the place, you may have just included those jobs where you didn't screw up, and left out the ones where you bankrupted the company by doing something monumentally stupid. Or you might have been in jail, rehab, or something equally unappealing to a prospective employer. So if you do choose to bum around Europe for a year, be damn sure to keep hotel and travel receipts!

Interview can not cover for your resume

[erice]

Never forget: the purpose of a resume is to get you an interview. If you got the interview, then you know that there were no fatal flaws on your resume. If there were fatal flaws on the resume, you won't get the interview and, hense, won't be able to explain them away.

Re:Interview can not cover for your resume

[skoaldipper]

Absolutely. The sole intention of a resume is to get your foot in the door. Especially in a technical field. Your credentials on paper speak for themself. However, your confidence, preparation, and presentation (for and) during the interview speak volumes about your actual qualifications. Careers of quality demand applicants with "marketing" experience, especially from those with technical backgrounds. A company can predict those skills by scrutinizing your original application, which consists of a resume, cover letter, letters of correspondence, emails, and phone conversations. Your ability to sell yourself (and not your credentials) will greatly increase your chance of an interview.

Here's a personal case study. At the peak of the most recent recession, I was applying for technical positions with several different companies, in the span of two months. Believe it or not, over half of the applications I sent rewarded me with an interview. And, my recent career experience in the last 2 years is very similiar to the author of this post.

Having close ties with several Human Resource Managers, experience in Technical Writing from college curriculum, and in general, lengthy job experience, here are important tips to remember about your resume (and the use of it):

Do not saturate your resume on a bunch of openings related to your field. Focus on fewer positions of your liking and tailor each resume to that position. Remember, quality not quantity. Include a cover letter with each one. The content of a cover letter should cover a discussion about their company, your interests relating to their products (or services), and how your experience meets (or exceeds) the qualifications necessary for that position.

Perceived "short comings" in your resume are interpreted differently by different employers. Case in point. Having a Masters in Computer Science and several years experience, I had to work in Construction for a few months to pay the bills. And, yes, in several resumes I sent towards technical positions, I put that experience on my resume. It shows responsibility and a hard work ethic. In addition, I had several short contracts related to my field. Those too were mixed in as well, when relevant. During several interviews, I had many employers spend more time discussing those jobs than more pertinent ones, and it reflected highly on me. It's a cautious, but careful, dance when you present yourself with a "spotty" resume. It will hurt you only if you have no stable work experience to present with it.

During the interview, have many, many questions. Questions which show your interest in the company, and the direction/goals they are taking for the future. Surely, during the interview, you can expect to receive tough questions related to your resume (and, especially, any perceived short-comings you may feel about it). Spend several hours beforehand, if necessary, rehearsing your answers to questions relating to such.

Most importantly, follow up each interview, immediately, with a "Thank You" letter. You should use it to clarify any questions or solidify any answers made during the interview. This letter is highly overlooked and makes you stand out amongst a swarm of fellow candidates. You are in a technical profession (I assume), and you should appear professional as well.

When an offer is made, do not be so hasty to accept it. It is easy to do so in light of this economic market. Follow the offer with a letter or phone call, thanking them for the offer, state that you are considering the position, and will give them an answer within a specified time. You are the gold which an employer seeks to add to his treasure. Not vice-a-versa. Confidence, not arrogance, will solidify your employment.

Re:Lie!

[Just Another Perl Ha]

Ya know... not too long ago, a prospective employer would have to get your permission before they were allowed to run a background check on you. But, in these days of the Patriot Act et. al... loss of personal privacy is just another one of those things all those whiney, tree-hugging liberals seem to always complain about.

P.S. The above was, of couse, in jest... as I too consider myself one of those "whiney, tree-hugging liberals".

P.P.S. I'd sure like to figure out a way to make the word liberal lose its negative connotation...

Getting the Interview

[M0b1u5]

Getting a job from an interview is EASY. Getting the interview is the hard part.

Forget about dwelling on your interview skills - because you have obviously thought long and hard about how to approach the interview - and the advice simply is; "be honest - but not TOO honest!".

The tricky part is ensuring your application lies in the list of interviews.

Remember, an HR department might see 500+ (or even 5000+ applications!) for some positions and in some locations.

Now - picture yourself as the HR person receiving this applications. 500 cover letters with resumes attached - each one with 8 pages of information. That makes about 4500 pages to read.

Sorry - if your resume/CV is longer than a SINGLE SIDE OF A4 PAPER you most likely will NOT get an interview.

I don't care how many jobs you've had or how freaking successful you are - you need to condense ALL relevant information down to a single page!

You will (of course!) in your covering letter, say something along the lines of:

"My mercifully brief C.V. is attached, and I will present my full Resume at an interview, or on request."

Four years ago, I was looking for work, and had professional help to get my CV down to a single side of A4 paper - and since that time, I have got interviews for every single position I have applied for. I even got to play three employers off against each other to land my current position. :)

Hope this helps.

Honesty, sincerity, and trust

[purduephotog]

If you can project those three items, you have the best shot you will ever get at nailing the job.

I was asked in a whirl-wind style interview, literally "So I don't exactly understand why we are interviewing you. Your degree doesn't match the job openings". I then sincerely explained that, while my background is a dual degree in Chemistry/Chemical engineering, I've done imaging science the entire period of my employment. Threw in a few stories about projects I'd worked on, (You do have your "Problem, Action, Quantified Results" stories in your head, don't you???) and he accepted it.

Another asked about the layoffs and specifically why I was targetd. You *know* they are going to want to ask that question- be prepared to handle it. Don't whine. Don't Whine. DON"T WHINE! Remember that. Explain it as "We were told that seniority would count significantly during the layoff process. As I had just entered the group a year (or your case, 5 weeks) ago, when they pulled the project funding I was the newest, hence the least 'points' awarded during the deselection criteria"

Don't sound bitter- we all know you will be from the stories, and hearing 'laid off' doesn't have the stigma it once does. But dont' hide it in BS. If you present even a slightest bit, or get caught in a lie, you can kiss it goodbye. I've interviewed many a person and that is the one thing I listen for... I hear BS, you can use the resume to whipe it off the shoe.

random suggestions

[ScottSpeaks!]

When describing why you were out of work, don't say "I got laid off" or "I was made redundant" or anything else that makes you the subject of the story. That makes it sound like it's your fault. Instead say, "The company was forced to eliminate much of my department," which makes you sound more like the victim of a clamity, not some of the "fat" they were happy to trim to improve the balance sheet. If you can avoid making it about the company (where you were a very important part of their success, after all), that's even better. "The widget-making bust eliminated my position." But don't sound bitter about it. It's part of life, and you're OK with it.

If you went back to work for just a short while, I'd feel free to just not mention that job, and just lump that in with the period before and after, when you were "consulting". You could mention it as an example of "projects" you did while you were otherwise-out-of-work, to demonstrate that you weren't just sitting on your ass, but being a self-motivated pro-active kinda guy.

Just a random bit of advice for anyone who (like me) was singled out to be gotten rid of (for personal illegal-in-several-states reasons, for what it's worth): find a way to "launder" your resume without actually lying (which would be just plain stucking fupid). For example, go back to school, and pick up another degree or something. (If you have no income, financial aid is often available.) Sign up for the Peace Corps or something. Then put that on a chronological resume and employers may just assume you did it on purpose.

Re:What is the US obsession with gaps on your resu

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it's drawing a long bow to say that long work hours "led to America becoming a global economic, military, and political uberpower in, what, a couple mere centuries." How about:

1. Abundant natural resources.
2. Slavery, followed by cheap immigrant labour.
3. A large population.
4. Good education.
5. Capitalism.
6. A government willing to use its muscle (military and economic) to get its way.

Working your butt off is less important than any of these.

Yes! Also seek a conversation in the interview

[HeelToe]

This is all very relevant good advice.

I have used a number of these principles since beying laid off in 2002 for both finding a position with a new company and once there an internal move up the chain.

One intangible that beyond this (or maybe reading between the parent poster's lines): do whatever it takes to prepare yourself for a conversation with your interviewer. Yes, this can be hard in a question-answer-question-answer type format, but figure out how you're going to weave things into a conversation. When you engage your interviewer in a conversation they can better connect with and relate to you. It also helps them visualize what you would be like on the job - most people will want to work with others they can successfully interact and collaborate with.

...just stupid

[Mulletproof]

There's truth in this. I went to work for Airline X and did somthing similar. My employment- while not bad -was heavily fragmented, so I felt the need to stetch the truth in some areas. It was almost a potential costly mistake as they had hired an independent firm to do background checks which found found the inconsistancies rather easily, though it took them nearly 8 weeks to start asking questions. The only way I managed to get out of that mess was to continuely put off their inquiries. While it did finally come to head, enough time had passed with enough problems in the process for the employer to finally just let go.

In otherwords, I got lucky. Of course it didn't help that I was applying for a terrorist targeted industry (doh!), but if they can do it, so can your potential employer. Employ the parents tactics with due caution, if at all.

From an employers perspective

[mgeneral]

I read a lot of resume's, and this sort of stuff is very common...particularly during the dotcom boom/bust. I really don't pay attention to the history so much any more (as job loyalty and employer stability has been blurred with other less fortunate outcomes) and I really focus on someones character, attributes, and contributions.
These things all promote your experience and talk a lot more about someone than what an employer can reasonably gather from the employment history.

Re:Not sleazy, just stupid

[torpor]

yeah really. just tell the truth.

if the truth is unpalatable to them, then you don't want to work there, plain and simple. move on, find a group with some sort of spine and humanity to work with, they're out there.

people aren't machines. shit happens. the fact that you were laid off shouldn't be any where near as important as the fact that you worked on two projects, and the details about what you did while at those projects should be more important to the recruiter than the fact that you've had a few false-starts.

honestly, sometimes, i think this social/peer/collective 'thinking' about things is pathetic.

don't bend to the mob, ever!

Don't think of it as 'bad luck'

[YouHaveSnail]

Look, there's no need to apologize for what you've done if you haven't done anything wrong. Projects get cancelled... it's what happens in this line of work. Put down your relevant work experience, including that cancelled project if it's relevant. If/when it comes up in an interview, simply explain that the project was cancelled due to circumstances well beyond your control (assuming that's true) and that you're looking for an employer with somewhat more solid prospects. Tell them flat out that you're looking for an employer with more solid prospects than your last one, and ask them a question or two about the outlook for their business (in a completely interested, polite, and professional way, of course).

The three things employers look for.

[ear1grey]

Most folks seem to have commented on the resume, but not on the interview, so I'll mention that.

Cutting through all the crap, interviews come down to just three things.

1. Do you want it?
2. Can you do it?
3. Will you fit in?

To re-introduce some of the crap...

1. Do you want it?
An employer wants to be sure you're actually interested and willing to commit to the company.

2. Can you do it?
They need to know that you are capable of doing the job they have in mind. Note that the job spec and the real job are two different things, so part of the interview process is where you help them by explaining what they're looking for (i.e. describe the job in terms of your skills and experience).

3. Will you fit in?
This is THE important one... bear in mind that assuming they've gone to the expense of getting you in for an interview you've pretty much convinced them of 1 and 2 already.

In the long term, your integration will affect your motivation to stay, your capability to do the work, and you'll also affect these factors in the other employees.

So, if the interviewer doesn't like who you appear to be, you can pretty much forget it.

However, if you've had some bum luck with employers, it just doesn't matter. If you're pissed offdisappointed because of your redundancy, it's OK to show it: it illustrates that you'd committed to a job but the management, or the board, or the economy, or an infinite number of factors outside of your control screwed things up for you; and yet, you're still fighting, covered in crap and smelling terrible, but you've not given up.

Now *that*, for an employer is a jigsaw-completing quality - determination and spirit are invaluable. Show this at an interview and your redundancy just got you your next job.