Utah Leads the Way Toward RFID Privacy Legislation

Doubt it will last by synergy3000 · 2004-02-27 09:03 · Score: 5, Insightful

Has RFID users formed their own lobby yet? Retailers have their own. Notice how powerful Walmart is in that respect. They will just lobby the US Congress to create an over-riding law allowing RFIDs to be used as the retailers see fit. Vote smarter next time around and everyone vote!

cool by FoogyFoo · 2004-02-27 09:03 · Score: 5, Insightful

A tech law in advance of the tech.
That's the way it should be, rather than trying to throw together a hack job after the tech has been around for a while.

Re:cool by Kenja · 2004-02-27 09:17 · Score: 1, Insightful

Quick, before the evil technology take over and kills us all! We must make laws against everything we dont understand so they cant be used against us!

--

"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
Re:cool by pilgrim23 · 2004-02-27 09:38 · Score: 4, Funny

If only the proper legislation had been in place before "Ugh! Mog invent wheel!". We could have completely avoided the greatest threat to western civilization: Parking Meters!

--
- Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
Re:cool by An+Onerous+Coward · 2004-02-27 13:19 · Score: 3, Insightful

You're right. If only the government had stepped in and started heavily regulating the Internet around 1985...

I'm glad to see my Utah legislature taking time out of its busy schedule of banning gay marriage and getting us out of the UN to meddle in technology it doesn't even begin to understand. Gives me a real warm, fuzzy feeling all over.

Not that I wouldn't like to see some sane, well-considered legislation on the subject. But every year, they prove over the course of forty-five days that they're not capable of crafting legislation even remotely like that.

--
You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!
Re:cool by joe_celko · 2004-02-28 05:35 · Score: 1

Unfortunately, that [A tech law in advance of the tech] is a **really** bad idea. The existing powers (old technology) prevent or destroy the new on political grounds. The light bulb is bad because it would hurt our brothers the Candle Makers! Two broadcast television channels is enough for the Russian people.

Look up the history of vaccination in France; the Church opposed it because people were supposed to die; doctors opposed it because you infected people with a disease (Hippocratic Oath). The State finally backed down after one of the Royal Family died.

hi. I'm Troy McClure by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 09:03 · Score: 5, Funny

hi. I'm Troy McClure. You might remember me from such RFID-paranoia movies as "1984 mhz" and "My Radio Receiver Knows what you Did Last Summer"

Re:hi. I'm Troy McClure by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 09:05 · Score: 0

Now that's funny!

I smell a trolling phenomenon coming on. You just coined the new Soviet Russia!
Re:Hi. I'm Troy McClure by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 10:11 · Score: 0

"Redundent"?

Is it just me... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 09:04 · Score: 1, Interesting

or does anyone else feel immediate antagonism when they see Utah mentioned anywhere?

The state has accumulated a lot of bad karma lately. I'm kinda glad Novell is moving out.

Mormons are not enjoying good karma either.

Re:Is it just me... by 36526542DD · 2004-02-27 10:05 · Score: 4, Interesting

As a Mormon in Utah, it is frustrating that so much attention is given to the "bad karma", and so little attention is paid to the great things about Utah.

Polygamy is practiced by groups in many states, but Utah gets all of the focus because of the concentration in certain communities (half in Utah, half across the border in Arizona). Additionally, most of that is attributed to the "Mormon church", which hasn't practiced polygamy since it became a state about 120 years ago (at which time it joined the U.S. and polygamy became illegal in Utah. Before that Utah was not in the United States, and polygamy was perfectly legal). So to even associate modern polygamy with the LDS church would be like calling anyone who currently lived in the southern states racist because their states used to practice slavery.

SCO is ~in~ Utah, but in no way reflects the views of Utah or Utahns. I don't hear anyone bagging on California or Virginia because Verisign is there, or Washington state because Microsoft is there.

Utah is a great state with great people, a lot of great companies, incredibly beautiful natural resources that we take very good care of (8 or 9 National Parks, I think more than any other state, and certainly more geologically diverse), and a lot of other things going for it.

To "feel immediate antagonism" toward Utah over a few issues that are really quite unrelated to the state is just a narrow-minded, uneducated, knee-jerk reaction.
Re:Is it just me... by Camel+Pilot · 2004-02-27 10:18 · Score: 3, Informative

Not to mention the best and insightful press coverage on SCO shenanings have come from Utah newspapers.

I am not mormon but have lived in southern Utah (actually close to Colorado City) and I must say Utah is one of the best states in the union (just bring your own beer)!
Re:Is it just me... by daperdan · 2004-02-27 10:22 · Score: 0, Flamebait

It's always funny to see a person that belongs to the LDS church accusing other of being narrow minded. The Mormon Faith is the very definition of narrow mindedness.

What other major religion taught that blacks where cursed and not allowed to hold the priesthood until 1978: Official Declaration #2

This is the religion that preaches that American Indians have dark skin because they were wicked and disobedient to gods commands.
Verse 21-23

I'm pointing to what your religion publishes on the net. These links are your scriptures. Bigotry is still part of your beliefs.

I'm sorry but Utah will always garner negative opinions due to the narrow mindedness of the faith that controls the majority of the population of that state.
Re:Is it just me... by rruvin · 2004-02-27 10:28 · Score: 1

To "feel immediate antagonism" toward Utah over a few issues that are really quite unrelated to the state is just a narrow-minded, uneducated, knee-jerk reaction.

Welcome to Slashdot!
Re:Is it just me... by winse · 2004-02-27 10:49 · Score: 1

As another mormon in utah I think that some of that knee jerk reaction is fully justified. I think that most Utah natives are "peculiar" if you know what i mean. I kind of take pride in the fact that we're a little backward from what most of the rest of the US is like. Sometimes it is the strange ideas that make the most sense, given enough time, and other times they are still strange.

--
this sig is deprecated
Re:Is it just me... by dankney · 2004-02-27 11:14 · Score: 1

most of that is attributed to the "Mormon church", which hasn't practiced polygamy since it became a state about 120 years ago
About time a religion outside of Catholicism got it's own state.
Does that mean that Mormons qualify for diplomatic immunity?
Re:Is it just me... by 36526542DD · 2004-02-27 11:19 · Score: 0, Offtopic

You're not very familiar with the God of the Old Testament, are you? Or the New Testament for that matter.

The issues you raise are things you'll have to take up directly with God, because I don't have the answer to his motives now, or in Old / New Testament times.

What is clear is that God, repeatedly throughout the Old and New Testaments, at times and under circumstances of his own choosing, has chosen to "mark" or "accurse" different groups (Cain and his seed, families of the wicked (see Joshua chapter 7 about Achan and his family), the Jews for the crucifiction of the Savior, etc, etc, etc) for their actions. In most cases these marks or curses continue on to their seed until God sees fit to change it.

There have been numerous groups in the Bible, with and without visual marks, that have been denied the gospel or the priesthood for differing periods of time.

Yes, the blacks were not allowed to hold the priesthood until 1978. But we were not taught to shun them or be prejudiced against them in any way. They were taught the gospel and could be baptized and were welcome, as they are now.

At no point has the LDS church taught or tolerated bigotry. You can't call us bigots, without calling God a bigot at the same time, unless you don't believe in the Old and New Testaments (or don't understand them).

Again, an uneducated, knee-jerk reaction. You don't know what you're talking about when it comes to our beliefs and are simply regurgitating something you heard or read elsewhere, while putting no thought or energy into understanding it, only into propagating it.
Re:Is it just me... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 11:19 · Score: 0

I think "the very definition of narrow mindedness" is an unfair categorization.

First, Official Declaration #2 _extends_ rights that were never formally limited anyway. Nowhere does it say that blacks were cursed or forbidden to hold the priesthood. The history of this topic is murky (I have read several books on it), and I, for one, am awaiting a forthcoming book from BYU Studies about Spencer W. Kimball that an inside source promises will shed some light on the matter.

As to the curse on the Native Americans, you read the verses you quote correctly. However, you ignore the blessings extended to them (see 2 Ne. 4: 4-7, among others).

Bigotry is _not_ part of Mormon belief. That some individual Mormons are bigots does not make it Church doctrine. But even if it were, Mormons would hardly have a monopoly on religiously-institutionalized bigotry (cf. the current debate as to whether or not Mel Gibson's new film is anti-Semitic).

You don't have to become a Mormon. You don't even have to like Mormons. But there is more breadth to this supposedly narrow-minded religion than you appear to suppose. If you are open-minded enough to accept truth (and reject error) wherever you find it, then you have nothing to lose by learning more.
Re:Is it just me... by 36526542DD · 2004-02-27 11:32 · Score: 1

You're right.

I can see how family values, the traditional family, no smoking or alcohol, no gambling, fighting tooth and nail against strip clubs, etc. look more and more peculiar to the rest of the world.

If only Sodom and Gomora had 5 peculiar people, it wouldn't have been destroyed.

I'm more than happy to be peculiar. (Deut. 14: 2, Deut. 26: 18, 1 Pet. 2: 9)
Re:Is it just me... by daperdan · 2004-02-27 12:04 · Score: 1

When are you going to realize that the Old Testament is nothing more than a collection of tales passed down through the times. It's not literal.

Just because ancient jewish cultures practiced bigotry doesn't mean that God is a bigot.

The Bible is a good representation of how ancient people attempted to justify things that were impossible for them to explain. Your own doctrine states that you believe in the Bible as far as it is translated correctly.

It's amazing that you'd justify your own bigotry by using the myths and legends from thousands of years ago. Think for yourself. We've all heard the canned answer you've spewed here on this page that has been force fed to you in your brain washing. Try coming up with your own explaination for Mormon Bigotry.
Re:Is it just me... by daperdan · 2004-02-27 12:28 · Score: 1

I, for one, am awaiting a forthcoming book from BYU Studies about Spencer W. Kimball that an inside source promises will shed some light on the matter.

"I'm waiting for the religion to tell me what to think. "

That's what you're saying. It's like saying,"I don't know that the holocaust was wrong. I'm waiting on a book from Hitler's grandson before I make my decision." (maybe a little extreme)

Take an objective view for once in your life. Of course BYU is going to print something that justifies the bigoted attitudes of the past. They're owned and funded by the Mormon Church. Try a little independent thought for once.

The biggest problem with the Mormon church is that they can't admit fault. There has never been an apology for the bigotry that was preached to its members. There are no apologies for Brigham Young's statements regarding the intelligence of the Negro race. No retraction of McConkie's bigoted statements in Mormon Doctrine.
Re:Is it just me... by MikeDawg · 2004-02-27 12:30 · Score: 0, Flamebait

Can I maintain my right to *hate* Utah, I spent 20 years of my life there? Well, I'll ease up just a touch, I hate Utahns more than I hate Utah as a state itself. I do have to give Utah respect due to the beautiful scenery, mountains, and general environment.

--
YOU'RE WINNER !
Another lame blog
Re:Is it just me... by 36526542DD · 2004-02-27 12:33 · Score: 1

Hmm, it seems the only thing I'm being force fed here is your opinion that I'm a bigot. Something I've given you no reason to believe.

If you don't believe the Old Testament, you CAN'T believe the New Testament or in Jesus Christ. It isn't possible. He Himself taught from the Old Testament and affirmed repeatedly that He was the great I AM spoken of in the Old Testament. He seemed to think it was more than just "a collection of tales". He seemed to think it was scripture.

Do I believe that there have been unintentional and intentional errors in translation? Absolutely. But that doesn't change the fact that it's scripture. Or do the 10 commandments no exist for you?

So far you remind me a lot of the pharisees and sadducees that contended with Jesus and helped promote the bigotry that led to His crucifiction. They prided themselves in understanding the scriptures, or at least telling other people they were wrong, but didn't believe the scriptures and put forth no effort into living them.

The truth is, I don't care what you think about me. I have no problem with blacks, indians, jews, muslims, or any other race or group (except maybe lawyers and politicians :). It is God I will meet with face to face to account for my life, not you.
Re:Is it just me... by daperdan · 2004-02-27 12:42 · Score: 1

You may not be a bigot but the religion your claim as your own is full of bigotry. Here's a sample.

This is a quote from Brigham Young.

"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable, sad, low in their habits, wild, and seemingly without the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind.

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so."

The man was a prophet or so you claim. He spoke for god at the time. Was he correct?

Do you agree with Brigham on this statement?

If so you are a bigot and a racist.

The Old Testament had similar "prophets" with similar racist views. Just because it was printed back then it doesn't make it right.
Re:Is it just me... by 36526542DD · 2004-02-27 13:16 · Score: 2, Insightful

This entire discussion is moot, as I'm having it with someone who doesn't believe in prophets or scripture (modern day pharisees and sadducees, like I said before), so this will be my last post.

Yes, Brigham Young was a prophet. No, I do not agree with that statement. But that is pointless anyway, because the statement was made before the civil war, in a very, very different time. And the only source is the Journal of Discourses, which has never been considered a source of church doctrine.

If you only analyze a group by their teachings or actions of 150+ years ago, then every american is a bigot against indians (american soldiers murdered tens of thousands of them) and every catholic is a barbarian (leftover from the cruisades). But neither of those are the case, just like neither I or my church are bigots.

Bye.
Re:Is it just me... by daperdan · 2004-02-27 13:26 · Score: 1

This is typical....

According to your beliefs, Brigham Young got his inspiration from Jesus Christ. So I guess Jesus Christ was a bigot until it was no longer fashionable.

The difference between the groups you've mentioned is that they can admit fault. The United States governement has gone through a series of changes.

Your paticular group maintains its doctrine. Many people still hold the same racist attitudes that were passed on as doctrine because THESE STATEMENTS HAVE NEVER BEEN DENOUNCED. Can you believe that not a single church leader has come out and said that Brigham was wrong and condemmed these racist statements. Please show me where a leader said that Brigham was wrong.

Also you belong to the only true church on the face of the earth. Don't you think that such an organization would have a little more insight than the average organization.
Re:Is it just me... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 13:41 · Score: 1, Informative

Ok- you seem to have a history with the LDS church. Tell me, when was the last General Conference that you heard a leader of the church claim that whites are better than blacks, or that people should treat different races poorly, or that white people are smarter than black people? There is a reason that you don't hear them teaching this- IT IS NOT PART OF THE CHURCH'S DOCTRINE! On the contrary, you WILL hear the leaders of the church encouraging people to be kind and treat other people with respect, and that we need to be humble in our relations with other people.

Brigham Young said a lot of things. He said that he doesn't think black people are smart. He also said that he likes to eat baked potatoes. He was a Prophet, does that mean that God wants us all to eat baked potatoes? McConkie wrote some hateful sounding things, but there is a reason his book is not canonized scripture- because thats not what the church teaches!

Its true that the LDS church did not give the Priesthood to black people before 1978. Why? I honestly don't know, and neither do you. For all we know, it could have been because God was pissed at the white people for being to proud. Whatever the reason, its not applicable today.

You see, the Mormon church does not teach people to be narrow-minded. On the contrary, it teaches its members to question everything personally.
Re:Is it just me... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 13:47 · Score: 0

Your paticular group maintains its doctrine.

Once again, what you have cited is not doctrine. It was an opinion of a leader of the church. There is a reason it is not taught in any church meetings or official church literature. Why should the LDS church admit fault or apologize for something that it doesn't endorse or believe in?
Re:Is it just me... by daperdan · 2004-02-27 13:58 · Score: 1

Wrong. The Church discourages it's members to question everything. Here's a quote from a more recent General Authority:

"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's Plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give directions, it should mark the end of controversy, God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God."

Doesn't sound like members are encouraged to question church doctrine here.

I've done nothing but point to facts and you and your fellow defenders of the faith have yet to show me any quote that denounces the racism of the past. I've provided you with all kinds of quotes and statements to back up my position and all I've seen from your side of the fence is opinion.

Maybe you should check yourself and do a real study into the church's history. Maybe you'll fare a little bit better next time you choose to defend your religion. It's more likely that you'll find exactly what I've found. And that is that Joseph Smith was a con artist and the LDS church was founded on fraud.

These statements by Brigham Young and Mc Conkie seem uninspired because they were. They were just men with no contact to the "Supernatural".
Re:Is it just me... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 14:14 · Score: 0

You said that you served a mission. Then perhaps you remember what the missionaries teach people the very first time they get together.

God leads his prophets, his prophets teach us, and we go back to God for confirmation through the Spirit. It is the "circle of life", if you will.

In fact, this is such a bedrock principle of church doctrine it is one of the very first things that the missionaries try to teach. It ranks up there with "We believe in God". They teach this before even talking about Joseph Smith or golden plates or baptism or going to church. It is implicit in everything else they say.
Re:Is it just me... by scribler · 2004-02-27 14:21 · Score: 1

He is only partially right. Embracing family values and avoiding alcohol, smoking, pornography, etc., is a good thing, and if that makes Mormons (which I am) and Utahns (which I'm not) "peculiar" then it is a good thing. However, embracing being "backwards," is a bad thing. Embracing family values is not being backward. Supporting hatred and teaching our children to fear people who are not Mormons, is backwards. That is not something the Church embraces and we should not be proud of those who do.
Re:Is it just me... by 36526542DD · 2004-02-27 15:52 · Score: 1

I whole-heartedly agree.

Plain and simple, Mormons who don't practice tolerance and neighborliness aren't living their religion in that respect.

Read any talk that the current Prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley has given, and the chances are very high it will talk about being better, more tolerant neighbors.
Re:Is it just me... by some+guy+I+know · 2004-02-27 17:48 · Score: 1

I don't hear anyone bagging on [...] Washington state because Microsoft is there.
Washington SUCKS!

...

Oh, you said Washington state.
Sorry.

--
Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana

Bush's cronies... by YanceyAI · 2004-02-27 09:06 · Score: 4, Interesting

Wait. You're saying that I could get one of these little buggers and stick it on someone and know exactly where they are? I'm more worried about the Bush administration's ideas for using this technology than I am about Wal-Mart's. Though I don't want them tracking me either.

I mean who wants your retailer to know when you buy condoms or somethng equally personal. Really, technologically speaking, we are not far from the thought police at all.

--
Can I bum a sig?

Re:Bush's cronies... by Proud+like+a+god · 2004-02-27 09:08 · Score: 0, Troll

I mean who wants your retailer to know when you buy condoms

OMG you're reading Slashdot and having (protected) sex!
Re:Bush's cronies... by YanceyAI · 2004-02-27 09:13 · Score: 1

Well, I am one of the few female /.ers, so it's not that surprising.

--
Can I bum a sig?
Re:Bush's cronies... by Proud+like+a+god · 2004-02-27 09:18 · Score: 1

I had noticed, unlike some. But still... ;-)
Re:Bush's cronies... by Zakabog · 2004-02-27 09:32 · Score: 3, Insightful

Yeah the retailer should never know when you buy condoms, so when you go up to the counter to pay for them rip off the bar code and assure the clerk it's the right one while keeping the condoms in your pocket.

This is really dumb, the store knows when you buy personal items if they have a RFID tag or not. When you go to the counter and pay for the items, hey someone's gonna know! And it kind of tips people off when you carry them in your cart or basket. Also, if you use a CVS card or anything like that they keep track of what you buy and send you flyers and ads home based on that information.

We're not too far from the thought police at all? Where the hell did that come from? RFID tags can't read your mind, if you have one on your body no one's gonna be able to track you from a satellite, it doesn't transmit brain waves. You'd need a reader really close to the device anyway. Not like the CIA is gonna follow you around with a RFID tag reader, that'll defeat the purpose of having the tag installed secretly in the first place.
Re:Bush's cronies... by srussell · 2004-02-27 09:38 · Score: 1

I'm more worried about the Bush administration's ideas for using this technology than I am about Wal-Mart's.
What, you think they're two different issues? Hey, I know that when I head down to Wal-Mart to pick up an assault rifle and a couple of kilograms of cocaine, my biggest worry is whether George is going to be sitting in the Oval Office checking over my shopping list.
Re:Bush's cronies... by el-spectre · 2004-02-27 09:52 · Score: 5, Interesting

Incidently... having been a cashier for a bit I can tell you: No one cares when you buy personal kinds of stuff. You wanna buy condoms? Go for it... most people have sex, it's not a big secret. Other than mild amusement when a giggly couple comes thru buying wine and rubbers, I never gave a damn.

One exception, though: Couple cam thru buying wine, condoms, KY, straight razors, rubbing alcohol (!!!), and nothing else. Had a funny look in their eyes... I don't know what they were up to, but the alcohol and razors STILL makes me shudder.

--
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
Re:Bush's cronies... by geekoid · 2004-02-27 09:52 · Score: 5, Insightful

he said technologivally, were not far from the thought police.

Perhaps you have some condoms in your pocket. then every where there is a rfid rader, there is someone who knows what is in you pocket.

You go to the story to buy a couple of things, then suddenly the cart announces there is a sale on condoms. now everyone know you have condoms.

Or perhaps you hacve some mdication you would rather someone didn't know about?
Walk into an interview, and the company know you take diabetis medication. well, better hire someone else because of the insurance risk.

Your in a town that is run by a religeon, and you have some material on you that would be 'against the rules'. suddenly your life just got a lot harder.

the CIA won't have to follow us if the readers are every where, would they?

no they can't read you mind, but they tell the world what you own, and people will infer there own reasons why you would own them. And believe me, nobody is going to infer anything positive.

--
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Re:Bush's cronies... by happyfrogcow · 2004-02-27 09:55 · Score: 1

CVS card... i have one. when i signed up, you can check a box saying "don't send me crap" and amazingly enough, they havn't sent me one bit of crap.
Re:Bush's cronies... by Asprin · 2004-02-27 09:57 · Score: 3, Insightful

There's a difference between "Tee-hee, then this one guy came in today and he bought ...." and "Please send Mr. Williams an email informing him that the .... he purchased today will no longer be on sale next week, so he should come in as soon as possible to stock up."

I expect that the biggest discernable change RFID is going to cause is the deliberate modification of personal behavior to prevent this kind of information from being PRESENT so that it cannot be collected.

--
"Lawyers are for sucks."
- Doug McKenzie
Re:Bush's cronies... by thelexx · 2004-02-27 09:58 · Score: 2, Insightful

There's a big difference between having one clerk notice for a moment that you are buying something embarassing and having it stored in a database for convenient perusal at any date in the future by multiple parties and without your knowledge or permission.

The thought police idea comes in when you change your behavior based on the above.

--
"Gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world." - Alan Greenspan, 1999
Re:Bush's cronies... by Rick+the+Red · 2004-02-27 09:59 · Score: 1

Wait. You're saying that I could get one of these little buggers and stick it on someone and know exactly where they are?
More to the point, you could buy a six-pack of undies at Wallmart, shred them into itsie-bitsie pieces and put them, like lint, into dozens of pockets at the local dry cleaners. Then they will suddenly be tracking hundreds of "you". Whoever they are.
There are a thousand ways to defeat Big Brother, if you think about it. Paranoia just means you have to be careful.

--
If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
Re:Bush's cronies... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 10:19 · Score: 0

Suppose a Trojan wrapper is found at the site of a rape. Oh, and guess what, YOU just bought some Trojans. That's *all* a good prosecuter need these days...
Re:Bush's cronies... by saforrest · 2004-02-27 10:55 · Score: 4, Funny

One exception, though: Couple cam thru buying wine, condoms, KY, straight razors, rubbing alcohol (!!!), and nothing else. Had a funny look in their eyes... I don't know what they were up to, but the alcohol and razors STILL makes me shudder.

A friend of mine was participating in a scavenger hunt once. He went to the local Canadian Tire (basically a hardware store, for non-Canadians) with another friend, who happened to be female, and bought, among several things I can't recall, a box of condoms, a lot of Coke, a duck decoy, a for-emergency-use-only CO2 bicycle pump, and a hockey goalie mask.

The cashier gave them a very strange look as they left.
Re:Bush's cronies... by Medgur · 2004-02-27 11:29 · Score: 1

Shaving, obviously.
Re:Bush's cronies... by canajin56 · 2004-02-27 11:34 · Score: 1

Why put it in underware? Put it in drivers licences and state ID. There is a push to have a national ID card, so put one in them, too. You can't microwave them, as they would probably melt. Even if not, it would be destruction of government property, and land you in jail. You can't report it stolen and get a few more, and have them spread around, because they would know which are the stolen ones, and could arrest the people who are carrying them for you.

All you could do is wrap it in tinfoil.

--
ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
Re:Bush's cronies... by el-spectre · 2004-02-27 11:34 · Score: 1

with rubbing alcohol, huh? ouch...

--
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
Re:Bush's cronies... by TheDukePatio · 2004-02-27 11:37 · Score: 1

I think the only "deliberate modification of personal behavior" will be that folks will start using cash to make purchases again. Cash transactions are wonderfully advantageous as they can't be traced (unless your buying something that has to be registered or proof of ID to buy, like, alcohol, handgun).

--
To Alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems.
Re:Bush's cronies... by Rick+the+Red · 2004-02-27 12:12 · Score: 1

Why put it in underware?
I thought that was the whole point - that these little buggers were going to be embedded into everything you ever bought, for inventory and other commercial purposes. Remember the TV ad where the skanky looking dude shuffles through the store, stuffing things into his coat pockets, and when he leaves, bypassing the cashier, the guard at the door stops him and says "Excuse me, sir, you forgot your reciept." That's the dream -- they'll identify you as you walk around and you're charged for your purchases just by walking out the door. The nightmare is that if you revisit the store, they'll charge you again for the clothes you're wearing because they still have active RFIDs in them. The paranoid nightmare is that "they" will use all these RFIDs to track your every move. The government won't need to put them in your driver's license if Wallmart is going to tag your underwear (and socks, and shirts, and candy bars, and...) As for the tinfoil, you'll have to wear a tinfoil suit -- and you'd better make it now, before tinfoil comes with RFIDs!

--
If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
Re:Bush's cronies... by DissidentHere · 2004-02-27 14:46 · Score: 1

This reminds me of the time my girlfriend-at-the-time and I travelled from Minnesota to New Jersiey to visit her dad. We get out there and it turns out she forgot her curling iron, we need oil for the car, and damned if we forgot to bring condoms (ever had sex in the Wendy's parking lot for fear of dad?).

I have never before, and never since had such a strange look from a cashier.

Ever since its been kind of a game for me to come up with the most bizare combination of items to go with condoms...though now I'm married, so I don't need to buy them often, if ever...snip, snip BK

--
"None of us are as dumb as all of us." - meeting mantra
Re:Bush's cronies... by Rob+Simpson · 2004-02-27 15:25 · Score: 1

I'm not sure which makes me wince more: the thought of using the isopropanol as an aftershave, or getting any cuts that would need disinfectant.
Re:Bush's cronies... by Rob+Simpson · 2004-02-27 15:30 · Score: 1

How about a guy buying a huge tube of KY and a box of 100 disposable medical gloves? And they specifically had to be the non-latex kind?
Re:Bush's cronies... by Jah-Wren+Ryel · 2004-02-27 16:06 · Score: 1

Not an RFID story, but in the spirit of privacy invasion when buying something.

A few months ago me and a drinking buddy dropped by a liqour store to pick up some nice anejo tequila ($50). He was all set to pay with his credit card and everything when the clerk carded him. He's mid-thirties, bearded, balding and got the start of a beer belly - not to mention paying with a platinum credit card in his name for a liquor that is relatively expensive and not in favor with the kids these days, but what the hell, no big deal maybe the store got busted and now they are ultra paranoid.

So he gives the clerk his driver's license, but instead of looking at it, the clerk turns around and gets ready to swipe it through some sort of mag-stripe reader. At which point both me and my buddy start to kick up a fuss.

End result was that the clerk would not sell the tequila without swiping the mag-stripe. He had no interest in looking at the card to verify age - the store was just doing a modern day radio-shack and building a mailing list with the names, license# and street addresses encoded in the mag-stripes under cover of the law's requirement to verify age.

So we got back in the car, drove down the road for another mile to the next liquor store, got the same bottle of tequila for $45 and weren't even carded. VISA knows he bought the bottle of tequila that day (and a six pack of underware at wal-mart the next) but the store doesn't really know who he is, where he lives or anything else beyond his VISA number (which can be used to find out that info and more, but is a long ways from getting that info for free).

--
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
Re:Bush's cronies... by YanceyAI · 2004-02-28 16:48 · Score: 1

Well through the simple powers of deductive reasoning we can determine a lot about an individual by what they purchase. Think of the books you buy. And the condoms were just an easy example of a personal item.

--
Can I bum a sig?
Re:Bush's cronies... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-29 11:05 · Score: 0

It's not the retailer that scares me. It's the fact that anyone with a reader on the street can know. Think about what anti-abortion zealots (and not all folks who are anti-abortion are zealots) do with license plates in abortion clinic parking lots. A lot of these people are against condoms too. One could run around looking for condom RFID tags (or even better, birth control pill tags -- I know women who keep them in their handbags rather than at home) and harass people with them. Print enough photos on a website (taken with a cell phone) and someone's going to be in trouble because they were cheating on a spouse who uses some other form of birth control.

Another thought I had -- a few weeks ago I bought a nifty little lighter at 7-11, it has a penguin on it that lights up (with an LED) when the lighter is opened. A number of the other lighters in the case had marajauna leaves on them, but I didn't think much of that at the time. Later it occured to me that law enforcement could theoretically put RFID tags in them, and then walk through public areas looking for the known RFID tags. Find one, frisk the person. Find pot and you can just claim you smelled it. Don't find pot and you can just claim you smelled it anyway, must have been someone else, sorry. Sure, cops can do this now, but without something to decide who to frisk, there's too many people to frisk to make it worthwhile. This would bother me less if someone hadn't later told me that the penguin is a cocaine related symbol (which I didn't know, because I don't do cocaine). Sure, if the cops frisk me, they won't find cocaine, but I don't want to be frisked, certainly not over a lighter.

For thought police, well, if I didn't like a particular book, and I was inclined to hang about the T station scanning for it's RFID tag and harassing those who have it on them....

Paranoid, maybe, but it's not about if they are out to get me, it's about the fact that they can.

Stop fighting it. by Hayzeus · 2004-02-27 09:06 · Score: 4, Funny

As good consumers we should welcome the departure of out privacy. It is, after all, a fair trade-off given the great (and personalized!) deals we'll all get in return. So let's all just relax and "go with the flow", shall we?

Thanx for listening,

Consumer 0556672GXX89F2

--

Roving Web-Teleoperated Robot

Well... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 09:08 · Score: 0

At least SCO can't track Linux users with RFID to improve their licensing sche^H^Ham...

Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 12:59 · Score: 0

How dare that evil company try to track inventory! What's next? Trying to earn a profit?

But what about Orrin Hatch... by barfy · 2004-02-27 09:09 · Score: 4, Insightful

Nice for them... Now if they can control what thier senator wants to do on a national level then we can talk...

Re:But what about Orrin Hatch... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 11:19 · Score: 0

Now if they can control what thier senator wants to do on a national level then we can talk...

Just repeal that pesky 17th Amendment and that problem would likely disappear.

An added advantage is that, with state legislatures back in the business of appointing US Senators, people would have to pay more attention to politics at the state level, where they really do matter.

Marketing people really are awful by ZuperDee · 2004-02-27 09:09 · Score: 5, Interesting

I wrote a letter to NewEgg, asking them to stop using HTTP Referrer on their site, because I thought it a privacy concern. Their response: "Unfortunately the HTTP Referrer Header cannot be eliminated because it is an essential tool for our Marketing Department used to monitor where we are getting our web traffic from so that we can improve future campaigns to focus on more specific demographics. Please accept our humblest apologies for any inconvenience." I have tried not to shop at NewEgg ever since, because the idea of gathering information on my web viewing habits WITHOUT informing me, and without my consent, really does bother me.

My main point here though is that this is just one example of how marketing people will do ANYTHING to gather information about people. Without a privacy policy, I think the folks in Utah are right, things like RFID will be used to gather personal information about consumers.

Re:Marketing people really are awful by t_allardyce · 2004-02-27 09:15 · Score: 5, Informative

Actually your HTTP Referrer is sent by your browser by its own choice, you can turn it off, and in some browsers even have it smartly decide when to send the referrer and when to keep quiet, it can also send a 'fake' address based on the current one to allow leeching etc.

An RFID tag on the other hand is more like a trojan condom/malware/spyware etc.

--
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Re:Marketing people really are awful by claar · 2004-02-27 09:15 · Score: 5, Informative

For your particular example, why not just turn off sending referrer information in your browser? The prefbar has a nice check box that lets you turn off sending referrer whenever you like.

--
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous...
Re:Marketing people really are awful by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 09:32 · Score: 3, Funny

That is quite possibly the one of the stupidest things I have every heard. You don't want a retailer knowing how you stumbled upon thier site? Do you demand that all Brick & Mortar retailers blacken their windows so that they can't see the direction from which you drove to get there? Think of all the privacy they are invading with that little trick! One day, they may amass enough information to determine that 60% of their shoppers come from the east and can use that knowledge in purchasing a billboard advertisement! OMFG! The horrors!
Re:Marketing people really are awful by microbox · 2004-02-27 09:40 · Score: 1

the idea of gathering information on my web viewing habits WITHOUT informing me, and without my consent, really does bother me

We should be bothered by this behaviour, but to stop it we must consider the cause.

A shop wants a cheap way to develop a marketing strategy. Collecting information on consumers is an efficient way of doing this, but they are afraid to ask because people are scared that the information will be abused.

And people should be justified in that fear and should continue to fear until we put laws and regulations in place that will hold people to an ethical standard when using this information.

You can't wish the problem away, we have to work out what those laws and enforce them.

--

Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
Re:Marketing people really are awful by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 09:40 · Score: 0

I stopped shopping there because they also use your IP address.

Bastards.
Re:Marketing people really are awful by AmigaAvenger · 2004-02-27 09:41 · Score: 1

Many sites I have designed use referrer as the first line of security. you don't have it, the portions of the site won't work, period. take it or leave it, but I see no problem with internal referrers.
Re:Marketing people really are awful by t_allardyce · 2004-02-27 09:42 · Score: 1

Imagine if you were perminently logged into slashdot on your machine and you went browsing hardcore-dog-porn.com, then afterwards you returned to slashdot only to find that your referrer had been linked to your account and displayed on the front page for all to see. You think they wouldnt do that? how sure are you? huh?

--
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Re:Marketing people really are awful by ZuperDee · 2004-02-27 09:54 · Score: 2, Interesting

Because NewEgg won't let me order anything if I don't have referrer information turned on.
Re:Marketing people really are awful by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 10:11 · Score: 0

" Imagine if you were perminently logged into slashdot on your machine and you went browsing hardcore-dog-porn.com, then afterwards you returned to slashdot only to find that your referrer had been linked to your account and displayed on the front page for all to see."

Only if you followed a link to slashdot from hardcore-dog-porn.com. Referers are not sent when you use bookmarks/type it in/etc (IE had a bug but I believe it's been fixed). AND it's only the immediately previous page
Re:Marketing people really are awful by CycleMan · 2004-02-27 10:34 · Score: 1

RFID tag on the other hand is more like a trojan condom/malware/spyware etc.

Is this what we put on trojan horses nowadays to prevent disease?
Re:Marketing people really are awful by bani · 2004-02-27 12:15 · Score: 1

newegg isnt one of them.
Re:Marketing people really are awful by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 12:53 · Score: 0

Bull freaking crap.
Re:Marketing people really are awful by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 12:55 · Score: 0

First line of security? Agaist what? People typing in your website's URL instead of following a link? Sending referrer info is OPTIONAL, so you are the most retarded "webmaster" in the world if you rely on it.

Tinfoil condoms by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 09:09 · Score: 2, Funny

"I mean who wants your retailer to know when you buy condoms ...."

If you believe anyone is going to track condom usage with RFID, I suggest you wrap your willie in tin foil the next time you have sex. Since that is likely to be sometime around 2015, you have plenty of time to prepare.

Re:Tinfoil condoms by RLW · 2004-02-27 10:44 · Score: 1

The planned parenthood police will want to know everything you use your willie for.

Where there's a will there's a law suit!
Re:Tinfoil condoms by IchBinDasWalross · 2004-02-27 11:22 · Score: 0

I work as a cashier, you insensitive clod!

Joking aside, I actually do. Condoms normally come through the "self scan" lines, or buried in large orders. Before Valentine's day, our sales of condoms and flowers were up substantially, along with greeting cards.

--
Mod "Overrated" instead of replying "I disagree with you," you coward.

Voter issues by nuggz · 2004-02-27 09:12 · Score: 4, Informative

Complain all you want, but when voters care, issues happen.

My uninformed opinion of Utah is that there attitude is kinda like.
"We protect our own, you outsiders go away"

Note that there is interest from California, and Massachusetts.
They point out the Senator from Massachusetts sponsored an antispam bill. Even if the bill wasn't perfect, it did pass, and at least he is trying to do something. Perhaps with the right help he can do better with RFID?

Re:Voter issues by TheCanuck · 2004-02-27 09:19 · Score: 1, Interesting

Of course we in Utah "protect our own". Why shouldn't we with all the negative Utah comments spewing here. Despite the Linux Lackey opinions on SCO etc, Utah has given the tech world many advances, Novell, WordPerfect, Altiris etc. The RFID legislation is just the latest in a tech savvy state dealing with modern problems. Deal with it!

And leave religion out of this!

--
He shoots! He Scores!!!!!
Re:Voter issues by FuzzyShrimp · 2004-02-27 09:21 · Score: 2, Insightful

"when voters care, issues happen" Trouble is that they don't care and cannot remember three months into the future who said what or voted which way. Terrible truth. Look at who we elect over and over. SOS.
Re:Voter issues by BWJones · 2004-02-27 09:37 · Score: 4, Informative

Utah has given the tech world many advances, Novell, WordPerfect, Altiris etc.

So, despite the drawbacks of living in Utah, it turns out that Utah is actually one of those stealth components to technology. The University of Utah in particular has been a powerhouse in computer graphics and has produced doctorates from such folks as John Warnock (founder of Adobe), David Evans and Ivan Sutherland (Evans & Sutherland), Tom Stockham who created the field of digital recording, Alan Kay (Xerox PARC and developer of the GUI), now a fellow at Apple computer, Alan Ashton (founder of Wordperfect), Henri Gourard (creator of Gourard shading), Ed Catmul (co founder of Pixar), Jim Clark (co founder founder of Silicon Graphics and Netscape).

I have been quite surprised at the depth of the CS program here and we are working with a number of folks on projects that have great interdisciplinary potential. And it turns out that Utah is a pretty good place to live if you like the outdoors and such.

--
Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
Re:Voter issues by MikeDawg · 2004-02-27 12:04 · Score: 1

Seems to me big business is getting in the way of a beautifully planned idea: "UTOPIA". Now that I have successfully moved out of Utah (Thank Heavens), I wish you guys the best of luck in getting this UTOPIA thing off the ground, and in more/better areas than just Roy.

--
YOU'RE WINNER !
Another lame blog

RFID Locator? by gtrubetskoy · 2004-02-27 09:13 · Score: 3, Insightful

Is there such a thing as an RFID tag locator? Could someone electronically-savvy pitch in on this? Can I have a little device that beeps louder as it gets closer to a tag?

Re:RFID Locator? by Darken_Everseek · 2004-02-27 09:35 · Score: 1

That's what the tags are for. They're an inventory control device. Small chips powered by the scanner, that can contain data on the tagged item.
Re:RFID Locator? by Kozar_The_Malignant · 2004-02-27 09:38 · Score: 5, Interesting

> Is there such a thing as an RFID tag locator?
How about an RFID Reader Card for your laptop or PDA? You can get one for $150.00ish US from Syscan International (http://www.syscan.com). It fits a CF slot or PCMCIA with an adapter.

From an article in RFID Journal
http://www.rfidjournal.com/article/articleview/3 93/1/1/
"The read range is just five to 10 cm (two to four inches). But Striefler says the company is working to extend that. 'We hope to increase the power of the chip to improve its read range.' ... The reader can record changes in temperature, time and other data. The initial reader that Syscan is producing works with 13.56 MHz tags based on the ISO15693 and ISO14443 standards. The company is working to produce versions for the ISO 14443A and ISO 14443B standards. It will also create readers for the Sony FeliCa RFID chip, and 125 kHz and 134 kHz frequencies. "

Looks like a bold new frontier for interacting creatively with corporate computer systems.

--
Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
Re:RFID Locator? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 11:18 · Score: 1, Informative

No. There exists no technology today which can effectively determine distance from an RFID tag -- let alone the actual location of it. I am aware of current work at Intel and within academia upon the subject, but this is far from working and typically relies, even in theory, upon extremely large and expensive arrays of reader antennae. However, most commercial tags have an extremely short range (absolute max. of a foot or so), so the point is moot. Even current "long-range" readers (which, BTW, are still very unreliable) begin reaching practical maximums by 7ft.

Many [uninformed] people on Slashdot are unaware of the details of the technology and thus do not know about the deterimental range and reliability problems with current [extremely expensive] high-end technologies. Also, many Slashdot users have overlooked the potential privacy advantages of RFID relative to other location-sensing technologies such as GPS-- proximity is inherently ambiguous, decentralized, and infrastructure-dependent.

- An RFID researcher
Re:RFID Locator? by gtrubetskoy · 2004-02-27 11:33 · Score: 1

Dear moderators - please mod the parent up - this is the answer I was looking for.
Re:RFID Locator? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 12:01 · Score: 0

RFIDs are descended from devices that use emf coupling rather than broadcast (hence a 3m proximity limit on average). The coupling technique is used because of its small size, low power, and lack of effective inductors on the LSI scale. If you know (or scan) for the coupling frequency bands and notice an AM power blip, the resonant frequency or harmonic has been turned. What the chip is doing is modulating the field by shunting the coupling field. This session could be logged by a high speed scanner then the duling-banjo style handshake could be reconstructed one bit at a time from a live capture from the units master location (PDA
Informed people never say never, no matter how smart they are... ;-) lol

- A bEEr researcher

Laws need to include all future forms of tracking. by SpudB0y · 2004-02-27 09:13 · Score: 5, Insightful

Why come out with a new law each time there is a new form of technology? Just make it illegal to use ANY electronic database to surreptitiously track people. This can include facial recognition, RFID, gait recognition, electronic nose systems, cell phone triangulation, licence plate OCR, or any possible unforseen technological advances.

I NEVER thought I'd say this... by Bradee-oh! · 2004-02-27 09:16 · Score: 4, Funny

but unless others follow suit, I now have a reason to move to...

Utah...

*shudders*

--
"This is Zombo Com, and welcome to you who have come to Zombo Com" - www.zombo.com

Re:I NEVER thought I'd say this... by helix400 · 2004-02-27 09:24 · Score: 1

Don't forget Utopia, the plan to hook up fiber optic cable to hundreds of thousands of Utah homes. http://blogcritics.org/archives/2003/11/18/083344. php.
Re:I NEVER thought I'd say this... by Ymiris · 2004-02-27 09:42 · Score: 0

It's fun here I promise, you can go to church, ban beer, OHhh and don't forget...*southpark quote* the correct religion is the mormons, that's right, the mormons.

--
**It runs through my veins like radioactive rubber pants! Do not deny my veins!**
Re:I NEVER thought I'd say this... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 09:52 · Score: 0

Utah is *great* for hi-tech jobs and businesses, BTW. Not as big as Silicon Valley of course, but you get the benefit of not having to live in California!
Re:I NEVER thought I'd say this... by swillden · 2004-02-27 10:02 · Score: 3, Funny

Utah is *great* for hi-tech jobs and businesses
Ssshhh!
We've got too many people in Utah as it is...
Everyone, ignore that AC and listen up: Trust me, Utah sucks. Lousy weather, absolutely nothing to do other than go to church, drinking is strictly prohibited everywhere, Mormons will hound you day and night, and they won't even let you have more than one wife.
Nope. Stay where you are. It's better there.

--
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Re:I NEVER thought I'd say this... by John+Harrison · 2004-02-27 10:04 · Score: 3, Informative

Do you like to ski, mountain bike, hike, or camp? Do you enjoy visiting national parks?
If you like any of those things then you might like Utah. If you are not LDS and like those things then even better, because the Mormons aren't doing those things on Sunday. I don't ski on Sunday so I am relying on my friends who do for this info, but they insist that the slopes are nearly empty on Sundays.

--
Lasers Controlled Games!
Re:I NEVER thought I'd say this... by 36526542DD · 2004-02-27 10:17 · Score: 4, Interesting

As a Utahn who absolutely loves living here and raising his family here, I have to agree.

So many people move to Utah (usually from California as far as this post is concerned) because it's a great family-oriented place to live, and the first thing they do when they get here is complain that there isn't enough alcohol (the greatest source of child abuse and spouse abuse ever known to man), gambling (the greatest source of wasted lives ever known to man), and that everything is closed on Sunday (because people are at church or home spending time with their families, which is the reason you moved to this family-oriented state in the first place, isn't it?).

The same road that brought you in will take you back out, and have fun in California!

Utah: A great place to live, despite many efforts by outsiders to make it otherwise...
Re:I NEVER thought I'd say this... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 10:40 · Score: 0

"The same road that brought you in will take you back out, and have fun in California!"

It's attitudes like that that have built the stereotype for Utahns...
Re:I NEVER thought I'd say this... by timeOday · 2004-02-27 11:05 · Score: 1

"The same road that brought you in will take you back out, and have fun in California!"
It's attitudes like that that have built the stereotype for Utahns...
I doubt you can name a state west of the Mississippi where it's uncommon for people to complain about the onslaught California transplants driving up real estate prices etc etc.
Re:I NEVER thought I'd say this... by cens0r · 2004-02-27 11:13 · Score: 1

I prefer seattle. We've got all the outdoor activities; easy access to 3 great cities (portland, seattle, vancouver); we're closer to the ocean; and our weather is better.

--
Jack Valenti and Orrin Hatch will be first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
Re:I NEVER thought I'd say this... by swillden · 2004-02-27 11:21 · Score: 1

It's attitudes like that that have built the stereotype for Utahns...
Absolutely. Have I mentioned that Utah sucks? Everyone should move to California. It's much nicer.

--
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Re:I NEVER thought I'd say this... by 36526542DD · 2004-02-27 11:25 · Score: 1

You mean if someone builds a crackhouse (or nuclear plant, or something else you're against) in your neighborhood you don't oppose it and speak out against it? Particularly when it happens over and over and over again? And is accompanied by lies, stereotypes, and prejudice?

We're a close state, so our neighborhood just happens to be bigger than most.

It reminds me of the song line "they pave paradise and put up a parking lot". I love Utah. I love living here, raising my family here, and I love the people. So sometimes it gets old to have people constantly try to fix it for us to get us up to speed with the rest of the world.
Re:I NEVER thought I'd say this... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 11:38 · Score: 0

As a Utahn who grew up here, I have to disagree.

Utah is a great place to live if you're Mormon. If you're not, then stay the hell away. Mormons here think that anyone who is not Mormon is evil. If you don't go to church, then most of your neighbors will treat you like you're the scum of the Earth.

Now, from what I understand, Mormons in other states are very nice, friendly people. Perhaps the "holier-than-thou" attitude is only a problem when there is a big group of them.
Re:I NEVER thought I'd say this... by Percy_Blakeney · 2004-02-27 11:42 · Score: 1

Utah is fading as a tech center. Let's go through a quick list of Utah tech companies:
Novell: They have been sucking canal water for the last while. Hopefully their acquisition of SuSE will pull them out of their tailspin, but in any case, I don't believe that their Linux development is going to be moving to Utah. PLUS, they recently moved their corporate headquarters to the east coast.
Iomega: No longer a major player and their corporate offices are no longer here.
WordPerfect: Gone the way of the dodo.
Evans and Sutherland: I don't know a lot about them, but I do hear that they are having serious problems. I wouldn't doubt it if they either moved, went bankrupt, or got bought out.
SCO: OK, this could be the bright future of Utah's tech sector. Of course, if that happens then I'll be moving; I couldn't stand to live in the same state as those scoundrels.
All in all, Utah ain't the tech haven that it used to be.
Re:I NEVER thought I'd say this... by John+Harrison · 2004-02-27 11:55 · Score: 1

I would take issue with the better weather, but you do have fun cities and the ocean. I am in Boston currently and I would take the weather of either Utah or Seattle.

--
Lasers Controlled Games!
Re:I NEVER thought I'd say this... by 36526542DD · 2004-02-27 12:15 · Score: 1

See, that's the funniest thing. I've never known anyone who treats their neighbors that way. I try to be nice and friendly to my neighbors regardless of religion or lack thereof.

Now there is the fact that we know each other from church and church functions, so naturally we're closer to each other because of that. But that would be true of a bridge club, a group that golfs together, quilts together, whatever.

What I have found true is that people will move into the neighborhood from out of state, not socialize with us, criticize our ways, and seem to go out of their way to exclude themselves. Naturally, they are going to feel left out.

One lady in particular (I was her sons leader in scouts and her husband came out on some campouts with us and was very nice) just seemed bent on standing out and making the world know that she wasn't one of us and had no intentions in associating with us. She excluded herself.

Now I know that is an extreme case, and that we are both right to different degrees and in different instances. But I don't see how it can be as bad as you say.

Perhaps the "unholier-than-thou" attitude is only a problem with some people in the state.
Re:I NEVER thought I'd say this... by MikeDawg · 2004-02-27 12:16 · Score: 1

I'll move back to Utah, when UTOPIA is fully implemented (in more areas other than Salt Lake; maybe like the entire Wasatch Front), and working. I have a feeling I will never be moving back to Utah.

--
YOU'RE WINNER !
Another lame blog
Re:I NEVER thought I'd say this... by cens0r · 2004-02-27 12:20 · Score: 1

well it's hotter in utah in the summer... and it's colder in the winter... and they get lots more snow. Sure it is a little rainy here from november to may, but it's not as bad as people seem to think.

--
Jack Valenti and Orrin Hatch will be first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
Re:I NEVER thought I'd say this... by dwillden · 2004-02-27 12:27 · Score: 1

Gee, Guess we'll be seeing you back in Utah in a couple years. FYI many of the cities involved have promised the financial backing needed to guarentee the bond.

--
I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
Re:I NEVER thought I'd say this... by bckrispi · 2004-02-27 12:27 · Score: 1

there isn't enough alcohol (the greatest source of child abuse and spouse abuse ever known to man), gambling (the greatest source of wasted lives ever known to man)
Hmmm, ya know that if you substitute "religion" for both "alcohol" and "gambling", the logic still makes sense.
Before you mod me down, ask yourself: How many people have died because "My god's got a bigger schwanse than his god"? How many husbands have beaten (or raped) their wives because their "holy" book gives them the authority to do so? It's not the alcohol, it's not the gambling, it's not the religion. It's the asshole that uses alcohol, gambling and religion as an excuse for being an asshole!!

--
Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
Re:I NEVER thought I'd say this... by 36526542DD · 2004-02-27 12:47 · Score: 1

Too true that many wars have been fought in the name of religion, and sadder still that many men have used their beliefs to justify terrible actions.

But it isn't religion per se, that is the nature of man (or more correctly some men and some women). Hitlers beliefs of supremecy were racially motivated, but not necessarily religious. Quacks will be quacks regardless. And if it isn't religion its something else.

But I stand by my statements regarding alcolhol and gambling. No good is brought to the world by either (at least not when all things are considered). There are plenty who can hold their acolhol, but far more who can't. Most addictive things leave a wake of broken homes, broken hearts, broken bank accounts, and broken people. This includes alcohol, drugs, gambling, pornography, and others.

Sure a party may be a little more fun at the moment with alcohol, but the same can probably be said of most drugs. The price to society is simply too high.

Same with gambling. It may be mildly entertaining, but it is highly addicting. Not only that, the money then goes to companies that are arguably mafia-like. The little money that ends up in education coffers is small consolation to the kids in broken homes or poverty because of a parents gambling addiction.
Re:I NEVER thought I'd say this... by MikeDawg · 2004-02-27 12:48 · Score: 1

Just because the bill wasn't amended recently proves a little bit, but I don't think in the long run. I believe a similar bill, or even a more crippling bill will be passed to halt UTOPIA. Standard Examiner Link I can't imagine any city having enough money to be able to force UTOPIA active.

--
YOU'RE WINNER !
Another lame blog
Re:I NEVER thought I'd say this... by daperdan · 2004-02-27 12:55 · Score: 1

Read Mein Kampf and try and say that Hitler's belief's were not religiously motived.
Re:I NEVER thought I'd say this... by bckrispi · 2004-02-27 14:14 · Score: 1

But it isn't religion per se, that is the nature of man
Just like it is the nature of man to become addicted. There's *nothing* inherently wrong with alcohol or gambling, it's how people handle it.
No good is brought to the world by either
Bah! I'm willing to bet that clearly half of the people in this country were conceived in the heat of a passion that was enhanced by the effects of alcohol, myself included. And I consider myself to be a "good" thing in this world.
There are plenty who can hold their acolhol, but far more who can't.
Again, Bah!! In virtually *every* situation that I have been in that involves alcohol, from bars, concerts, parties, weddings, etc. The majority of people involved were just out to have a good time. The "drunken asshole", while he is present is the minority.
Most addictive things leave a wake of broken homes, broken hearts, broken bank accounts, and broken people.
Don't stop at banning drinking gambling and pornography!!! Look at how many people are addicted to consumerism. How many people are losing their homes and families because they have credit card debt that is out of control?? Ban the Mastercard!! Ban the Shopping Malls!!
The price to society is simply too high.
And of course, you have the wisdom to mandate this.
the money then goes to companies that are arguably mafia-like.
Huh???? Which mafia-like companies are you referring to?? The Hilton?? State Lotteries? Sorry pal, this ain't 1960. Licenced gaming has done an admirable job in distancing itself from its Mafia roots. If you'd study your history, you'd see that it was the 18th amendment that allowed the Mafia to gain a foothold in the first place!! That's what happens when you try to legislate morality!!
The little money that ends up in education coffers is small consolation to the kids in broken homes or poverty because of a parents gambling addiction.
I live in Arizona, which allows Indian Gaming. There is at least one tribe where each member gets profit sharing of the casino's cut. IIRC, this was to the sum of $30,000 per member. Not to mention that for the first time in modern history, many of the tribes are becoming self-sufficient. Schools, hospitals and other vital services that we take for granted are finally being built. 100% of this funding comes from gaming.
I happen to be a social drinker, and I do occasionally gamble. I am also a very proud Godless Secular Humanist. And sir, I can guarantee you that my family is just as loved and cared for as yours is. I don't need some church to tell me how to behave. I don't need some government legislating how I should act. If you need your government or pastor to tell you "don't get drunk and beat up your wife", that's your problem, not mine. And that's precicely why my blasphemous, heathen ass will never step foot into the state of Utah. Anyone who comes knocking on my door to take my rights away (guilty pleasures as they are)is going to get a lesson in the 2nd amendment - right between the eyes!!

--
Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
Re:I NEVER thought I'd say this... by Xyrus · 2004-02-27 14:47 · Score: 1

Say hi to Daryl for me. And since he used to be so much fun on this board, drop a quarter in his cup as you walk on by. :)

~X
Random Quote:"If you bend over in prison you're only asking for trouble."

--
~X~
Re:I NEVER thought I'd say this... by Akhiro · 2004-02-27 15:03 · Score: 1

And that's precicely why my blasphemous, heathen ass will never step foot into the state of Utah.

Great!
Re:I NEVER thought I'd say this... by 36526542DD · 2004-02-27 15:49 · Score: 2, Insightful

There's *nothing* inherently wrong with alcohol or gambling, it's how people handle it.

Then I assume you have no problem with meth, cocaine, marijuana, or any other drugs either? There is nothing wrong with them, it's just when people become *addicted* to them that there is a problem?

I'm willing to bet that clearly half of the people in this country were conceived in the heat of a passion that was enhanced by the effects of alcohol

Remember, I live in Utah where we don't drink and do have the biggest families of any group in America. I'm pretty sure people would still have kids just fine without alcohol. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to find that a higher percentage of unwanted and abused children were conceived under the influence of alcohol than without.

Don't stop at banning drinking gambling and pornography!!! Look at how many people are addicted to consumerism.

Yes, consumer debt is at an all-time high. And why not, there is no responsibility for anything else in America, why should there be responsibility for spending? We have the right to do anything in America, surely that means get ourselves in to debt and then file bankrupcy.

"The price to society is simply too high." And of course, you have the wisdom to mandate this.

So you don't think the toll alcohol alone takes on America is too high?

I can think of 17,419 families in 2002 that would disagree with you. Alcohol related deaths account for 41% of all traffic deaths each year. (I'm sure the other 59% were people rushing to the mall to get into debt).

Here are some child abuse statistics:
Everyday three children in the U.S. are murdered by a parent or caretaker.
18,000 are permanently disabled every year.
565,000 are seriously injured every year.
Three million children were reported as victims of child abuse and neglect in 1999 in the United States.

I would be very surprised if less than 41% of that abuse wasn't related to drug and alcohol abuse.

Think of how many movies and tv shows involve a father coming home drunk and beating the wife or kids.

So yes, I think the cost of alcohol on our society is too high for a little fun on the weekends. Plenty of people have just as much fun without it. I also think that if we didn't have alcohol already, and a company tried to release it as a product and it was found to cause 17,419 deaths a year and all of the other "side-effects" that it would never be approved by the FDA or any other government organization. As it is, it is deeply entrenched and trying to get rid of it would be political suicide.

But I stand by my argument. As a country, as communities, and as families we'd be better without drugs and alcohol.

Which mafia-like companies are you referring to?

Sorry, I live 2 hours north of Las Vegas, so my comments were directed specifically at that town where the owners of the casinos are very, very powerful and don't spend their time just going around and building playgrounds.

There is at least one tribe where each member gets profit sharing of the casino's cut. IIRC, this was to the sum of $30,000 per member.

I can see how this may be good for the tribe in general (schools, hospitals, infrastructure, etc), but I would think a check for $30,000 each year that required no work or effort would be a very bad thing for the individuals in the tribe (or any group for that matter).

"Something for nothing" robs people of their work ethic, skews their reality, and often ruins them for life. I remember a guy that went on the game show "Press Your Luck" and beat the system and won $106,000. It absolutely ruined his life and hastened his death. The same has been found of many lottery winners. Work is a good thing, free money only seems like it.

I happen to be a social drinker...
Re:I NEVER thought I'd say this... by utahjazz · 2004-02-27 16:25 · Score: 1

and they get lots more snow

In Utah, this is considered a good thing.

It amazed me when I moved elsewhere. In Utah people pray for snow. Elsewhere, people treat it like it's a national disaster.

They have correspondents out in the street like they're in a war zone.

"My god, it's coming down in huge flakes!! Run for your lives!!!"

"Governor declares a state of emergency".

"250 people die fleeing the snow".

Wear a coat. Drive slow. Chill.
Re:I NEVER thought I'd say this... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 16:43 · Score: 0

Utah: A great place to live, IF YOU'RE A BORING LOSER!1!!!1!!1!
Re:I NEVER thought I'd say this... by bckrispi · 2004-02-27 17:40 · Score: 1

Then I assume you have no problem with meth, cocaine, marijuana, or any other drugs either? There is nothing wrong with them, it's just when people become *addicted* to them that there is a problem?
The drugs themselves, no. The problem I have with "illegal" drugs are the crimes that occur during their production and distribution. Alcohol is regulated, marijuana is not. Look at the Netherlands. They have one of the most liberal drug policies in the world, and their addiction/drug related crime rate is a fraction of what it is in the US. OTOH, do I think it's wise to ingest any substance that can kill you instantly, heck no.
So you don't think the toll alcohol alone takes on America is too high? I can think of 17,419 families in 2002 that would disagree with you. Alcohol related deaths account for 41% of all traffic deaths each year.
I belong to one of those families who has lost a friend to a drunk driver. Was it the alcohol's fault?? NO!!! It was the fault of the idiot who chose to drive while intoxicated.
I would be very surprised if less than 41% of that abuse wasn't related to drug and alcohol abuse.
Again, you prove my point!!! Alcohol Abuse. There is a galaxy of difference between someone who consumes alcohol responsibly (the majority), and someone who abuses it.
I also think that if we didn't have alcohol already, and a company tried to release it as a product and it was found to cause 17,419 deaths a year and all of the other "side-effects" that it would never be approved by the FDA or any other government organization.
30,000 people were killed by guns last year alone. Neo-Nazi's and Klansmen are still allowed to vomit their ugly rhetoric. Self proclaimed "theologians" are allowed to bilk their followers out of millions in donations while hiding behind their tax-exempt status. That's the cost of living in a Free Society. And as angry as these things make me, it's a cost I am 100% willing to bear.
"Something for nothing" robs people of their work ethic, skews their reality, and often ruins them for life.
Offer me $100,000 for doing nothing! I'll take my chances :)
And I doubt the drivers of those 17,419 cars that killed people in 2002 chose to go out and kill someone. That decision wasn't made in the car, and it wasn't made in the bar. It was made way back when they chose to take their very first drink.
Gotta disagree with you entirely there. The decision was made when they *chose* to get in the car in an inebriated condition.
Drink if you want, but I choose not to. My point is simply that the cost is too high.
I have absolutely no qualms for your decision not to drink, or to live in a (mostly) dry state. I know many people who stay sober for just about every reason imaginable, from the simple (Against their religion) to the downright horrifying (molested by a junkie relative). But to suggest that we need to ban alcohol outright... sorry, you'll have to pull the Warsteiner from my cold, dead hands before I let that happen!
And I think it is too high for most or even all addictive things. Most would laugh at an argument that pornography is ... addictive.
Not at all. Face it, anything that causes us pleasure can be addictive!! How many sports-addict husbands do we have in this country (the term "football widow" mean anything)? I've known more than my share of "attention" addicts. Sports, shopping, sex, porn, drugs, alcohol, religion, video games, food, hobbies - if someone enjoys it, someone has the potential to become addicted to it. In turn, that someone has the potential to ruin their life (or someone else's life) over it. A responsible person knows the risks when they get involved. A responsible addict gets the help they need when it becomes a problem.
But go to a prison and ask all of the molestors, rapists, and serial killers whether they l

--
Xenon, where's my money? -Borno

Re:"wrap your willie"? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 09:16 · Score: 0

"FYI, grandparent is a female. "

There is a word for such: "Grandmother"

Well... by physicsboy500 · 2004-02-27 09:17 · Score: 3, Interesting

We've already seen Budweiser push for all the info they can get without these tags... I'm sure RFID is soon to follow.

At least they won't be able to invade your spending habits this way, and I'm sure legislation will come to dissallow their current manner of tracking if it deeply affects consumer rights.

Technology like this is beginning to infringe on our privacy though... I wouldn't want everyone to know I bought four pairs of handcuffs and a lether whip around my girlfriend's birth... I mean candy and flowers... yeah

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The original generic sig.

Place tinfoil hat on head by microbox · 2004-02-27 09:18 · Score: 2, Insightful

Marketing people especially are going to love this kind of stuff

Is there anything wrong with that so long as somewhere in our future we make sure that information isn't accessed 'inappropriately'?

An example of such abuse it as marketer looking up information an a prospective date, or a baristor using racel profiling digs up information about you that would prejedice a jury.

That's what we all fear...

But if this leads to cheaper and more acurate (and less bothersome) appraisal of market fashions, then that's as appropriate as asking surveying people.

RFID's provide that ability to collect data never before possible. This won't go away because it's just simple too useful.

We of the tinfoil hats must use our energies to combat inappropriate use of information.

--

Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right

Re:Place tinfoil hat on head by krusadr · 2004-02-27 10:00 · Score: 1

Is there anything wrong with that so long as somewhere in our future we make sure that information isn't accessed 'inappropriately'?

Unfortunately this approach is probably as naive as giving your details to a do-not-call list or 'unsubscribing' to spam.

In the not-too-distant future the only way to ensure your purchasing privacy will be to pay cash for everything. When the government succeeds in getting cash transactions banned we'll all look back at these debates and laugh at how easily we were suckered!

--
while sco {
wget -O /dev/null http://www.sco.com?sco=litigious%20bastards
}
Re:Place tinfoil hat on head by microbox · 2004-02-27 10:22 · Score: 1

In the not-too-distant future the only way to ensure your purchasing privacy will be to pay cash for everything. When the government succeeds in getting cash transactions banned we'll all look back at these debates and laugh at how easily we were suckered!

Perhaps you are right, because it's like that now. It's naive to think that an economically advantageous possition won't be exploited, and it's also naive to think that people will not be unethical.

We must change the rules if, if we want to have any privacy at all (more so in the future). This is the solution to the problem, not attacking legitmate uses of information gathering.

For example, a business generally won't sell you something that's broken. Once upon a time they did, the rules were effectively buyer beware. For example, if you bought a rotten carrot, it was your fault for not noticing that it was rotten, not the shops fault. With the introduction of more and more wiz bang technology, it became obvious that consumers were rarely qualified to know if their 'VCR was rotten'. So the laws were changed, and if you buy a defective VCR you can usually get it replaced without too much fuss.

And a new era has come. We're starting to realize that businesses can collect a lot of information about us, and we don't have any good structures to make sure that consumers interests are protected.

Consumer law has (at least in Australia) protected consumers well to date, and may prove to be an effective tool to protect consumers with this new problem.

--

Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
Re:Place tinfoil hat on head by letchhausen · 2004-02-27 11:20 · Score: 1

I liked this line in the article:
"Some companies naively thought that privacy would not be an issue for consumers," said Mark Roberti, editor of RFID Journal, an RFID trade publication.
Rii-ght, I'm sure those companies were aware, they just didn't care, however the RFID guy tries to play it off legit by calling it naive instead of uncaring. And what you called fear is exactly where these guys want to go next.
You of the tinfoil hat need to realize that where there is collection of data the uses of it are necessarily evil. Anytime the possibility is there, a reason is there, and that means someone will use the information inappropriately......

--
Hey, you think your house is cool?
Re:Place tinfoil hat on head by microbox · 2004-02-27 11:38 · Score: 1

where there is collection of data the uses of it are necessarily evil

Do you really mean this? How about surveying people for what they think about a war, or public policy? Doesn't that place pressure on politicians? Is that evil?

Collecting data is an essential part of many important activities in our society. For example, town planners need to collect data so that they can work out the best possible way to spend $$$ to improve our road systems. A business is always interested in what customers think of their products, and this is not evil if they do so to improve their goods and services, and plan their delivery.

An example of a bad use would be... M$ going on a huge advertising campaign because users feel their products aren't trusted. So now they have the perfect platform to sell 'trusted computing', which, in reality, is very Orwellian (1984). This is evil, but is only one example.

Perhaps stricter marketing laws are the answer, I think that'd be a good place to start. Saying that collection data is evil will only alienate you from those who need to collect data to do their job. And that includes politicians.

--

Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right

The real issue with RF ID is jobs by MountainLogic · 2004-02-27 09:22 · Score: 4, Interesting

While the marketoids will try to mine the tags, I do not think that privacy is the biggest problem with RFID. Why is wallmart pushing for the tags so hard? To eliminate labor. Labor is one of their biggest costs. With the tags in place they can eliminate the checkout people, you push your cart through the scanner and up pops your bill on the ATM pad. This also allows them to keep track of what sells and when. With some scanners between each department they can find misplaced items that customers put back on the wrong rack. This would also all but eliminate employee thieft. Only jobs left will be the greeter at the enterace and security at the exit. They have already outsourced janitorial services to fight unionization and I'm sure they'l do the same with a restocking crew and rent-a-cop.

In some ways this is the ultamate offshoring of a service job. The labor of checkout clerk is moved to the chip factory where the tage is made and the shoe factory where the tag is inserted.

Re:The real issue with RF ID is jobs by microbox · 2004-02-27 09:32 · Score: 3, Insightful

I agree with you up until you say

In some ways this is the ultamate offshoring of a service job

This is not offshoring jobs, it's technology making certain jobs redundent. Since this technology will be cheaper than labour it will win. Jobs are great and all, but people need to be "net productive", at least in theory

--

Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
Re:The real issue with RF ID is jobs by natrius · 2004-02-27 09:33 · Score: 2, Informative

Oh, so you mean they are trying to automate menial tasks to make more profit? And you're concerned because this has never been done before? Here's an idea: go to each Walmart location and smash these RFID readers you speak of. Ned Ludd would be proud.
Re:The real issue with RF ID is jobs by tc · 2004-02-27 09:43 · Score: 2, Interesting

Also, printing presses should be regulated, because they put scribes and illuminators out of work.
Re:The real issue with RF ID is jobs by jdgeorge · 2004-02-27 09:44 · Score: 2, Funny

I sympathize with your point but....

This is exactly the same argument that was used (unsuccessfully) against using machines during the "Industrial Revolution", against the use of automated manufacturing equipment on automobile assembly lines during the 1980s, and most recently against the replacement of the White House staff and US President with life-like robots.
Re:The real issue with RF ID is jobs by Flavius+Stilicho · 2004-02-27 09:57 · Score: 3, Interesting

With the tags in place they can eliminate the checkout people, you push your cart through the scanner and up pops your bill on the ATM pad.

This is precisely why I never have and never will use the 'Self Checkout' lanes at the supermarket, Home Depot, etc. Not only are they eliminating some poor schmo's job, but they're getting ME to do it for them on top. When they start giving me a 10% discount to use those lanes, I'll reconsider. Until then, they can blow me. and forget the argument that the discount is built in... if that were the case the prices at the full service line would be higher. Of course, just like ATMs and bank tellers, I guess that's next. </rant>.

Sorry... just thoroughly disgusted with the system lately.
Re:The real issue with RF ID is jobs by doorbot.com · 2004-02-27 10:01 · Score: 2, Interesting

This is not offshoring jobs, it's technology making certain jobs redundent. Since this technology will be cheaper than labour it will win. Jobs are great and all, but people need to be "net productive", at least in theory

You're getting at the capital-labor ratio... in "rich" countries where labor is expensive, labor will be replaced with capital as long as the replacement lowers cost. If Walmart believes replacing cashiers with RFID tags/scanners is cheaper, they will do so. RFID (at least for check out purposes) is probably not necessary in a place where labor is far less expensive.
Re:The real issue with RF ID is jobs by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 10:58 · Score: 1, Interesting

I agree, because let me tell you. I love waiting in line behind the guy fumbling with a check and ID. Or waiting behind the person with 85 million things in the cart. Or watching the bagger put my bread at the bottom of the bag and then stacks canned food on top.

I simply hate being able to scan my stuff across, stick in my card, press "Pay", and be out in 5 minutes. Convenience: who needs it?

Seriously, they still need someone to man the stations. Kroger has U-Scan stations with someone watching a terminal that for some odd reason has a camera showing the scanning area. Never quite figured that one out.
Re:The real issue with RF ID is jobs by cens0r · 2004-02-27 11:17 · Score: 1

they catch people doing things like putting down chantrel mushrooms, but putting in the code for iceberg lettuce.

--
Jack Valenti and Orrin Hatch will be first up against the wall when the revolution comes.

what's the problem? by bani · 2004-02-27 09:23 · Score: 4, Informative

mozilla and other browsers allow you to control the referrer sent to sites.

you can make it lie and say you were referred by h0t-chixx0r-sex.com

that will get them wondering 8)

or you can just enter the site manually into your location bar, in which case there is no referrer...

tangled web of RFID lies by Doc+Ruby · 2004-02-27 09:23 · Score: 4, Informative

"None of the retail tests of RFID tags invaded the privacy of shoppers in the Wal-Mart stores, Roberti [editor of RFID Journal] said. He also said that RFID chips in building security passes and toll-booth tags have never been used to invade a citizen's privacy."

New Yorkers were conned into installing EZPass toll ID systems around our entire infrastructure by a lying Mayor Giuliani who promised that the logs would be tightly protected, available only by court order and subpoena after due process, evidence discovery, legal confidentiality, all the rights by which we protect ourselves from our governments. Once up and running, it turned out that $50 through any low-rent lawyer could buy the logs from the cops, at first used in divorce cases, and now surely used for whatever pretext is convenient to invade our privacy.

Now the industry continues the lies to propagate their bugs throughout our consumer society. The deployment of the tech is inevitable, their lies as well. But our privacy rights can win, if we maintain zero tolerance for these invasions, and the liars who would have us pay for our own illegal surveillance. Join or promote the Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC), or the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF), or the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU). The freedom you save will be your own.

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--
make install -not war

Re:tangled web of RFID lies by silas_moeckel · 2004-02-27 10:01 · Score: 1

He did exactly what he said he would he never sold the logs but didn't protect them from the courts either. All those rights you state have been tromped on for years they offer no protection.

You would have to make the records unavalible by law to the courts or anybody else without need to know. The only people that get that seem to be our elected officials and the DOD. Funny as my elected officials are some of the people I trust least to do whats in my best interest. The DOD/CIA they have a job to do that nessicarly cant be open to the public all the time.

Persoanly I would vote for the no automated systems records are admisable in court unless the charges are for an attack on an automated system. You would need some clauses for alarm systems and such but not to hard. To bad I dont think we will ever see that in the US, land of the free untill we strap this monitoring collar around your neck.

--
No sir I dont like it.
Re:tangled web of RFID lies by Doc+Ruby · 2004-02-27 10:34 · Score: 1

Well, I remember 'dolph Giuliani and his flacks telling us the records would be private, and then they weren't. The kind of Republican lies that are now being kindly misrepresented as merely "bait and switch". I also remember reading in the Daily News or somesuch paper, when the first public report of sale of the logs was published about 4-5 years ago, in an easily defensible "slippery slope" divorce case, that reiterated the original promise of confidentiality which had thereby been violated. I note that the EZPass system is now integrated throughout the East Coast megalopolis, spying on probably 75 million Americans every day, crossreferenced to home address, phone#, credit card and car registration, just for the 1st degree database join candidates.

We need a private info license, like a GPL copyright on information released under nontransferable terms, strictly limiting the scope of use and distribution, with information expiration dates. We need a similar license for public info, which locks out the use of information by public organizations without consent of the rights controller. As with all copyrights, these licenses would be implicit by default unless waived. Disqualification from use as evidence or in any legal/bureaucratic discovery would follow from the copyright protection, tainting any process to mistrial or other appropriate abortion of any parallel bureaucratic process.

Americans have always been pioneers in the distinctions between public and private acts, documenting and protecting rights and privileges now considered essential worldwide. And now that we've led our species into this new frontier of the infosphere, we're the best people to make our stand in favor of invincible privacy. We need a Supreme Court decision, like Roe v. Wade, that clearly protects the right of people to be secure in our persons, papers, effects, and information, in the new environment of corporate and government threats to our privacy. Support the EFF, EPIC and the ACLU in securing the rights to privacy documented in the 4th Amendment to the US Constitution.

--
--
make install -not war

TEMPTED?!?!?!?!? by 2names · 2004-02-27 09:26 · Score: 3, Interesting

They will absolutely pair the RFID info with personal data. Most retailers will probably do this even if there are laws against it and just hope to not get caught.

--
"I'm just here to regulate funkiness."

Re:TEMPTED?!?!?!?!? by happyfrogcow · 2004-02-27 10:03 · Score: 3, Interesting

hope not to get caught... well if I accuse them of pairing data with people the burden of proof is on me. How would I get that proof without breaking the DMCA through reverse engineering their system or other benevolent hacks?
Re:TEMPTED?!?!?!?!? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 10:23 · Score: 0

absolutely.

and why not? the American consumer has proven time and again that all he cares about is saving $.50 on his favorite imported plastic -- wal-mart has stripped the shopping experience down to its barest essentials: no customer service, no ambiance, hardly any human interaction whatsoever. just thousands of identical cinder-block-flourescent-light monstrosities filled with junk made by exploited asian children and staffed by ignorant 16-yr old kids.

if Americans will suffer that to save a buck, it's a good bet that privacy concerns won't deter them either.

Sorry, but by 2names · 2004-02-27 09:28 · Score: 5, Funny

I for one welcome our RFID tag abusing overlords.

--
"I'm just here to regulate funkiness."

Re:Sorry, but by AndroidCat · 2004-02-27 10:35 · Score: 3, Insightful

I welcome the adoption and dependance on easily hacked technology so that I can become your RFID tag abusing overlord!
It says "G.W. Bush" on my RFID tag, and they're never wrong.

--
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.

Isn't this "Your Rights Offline"? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 09:30 · Score: 0, Funny

Well...?

Who are we more scared of? by t_allardyce · 2004-02-27 09:39 · Score: 3, Insightful

This might keep the marketing dogs at bay but politicians must be having wet dreams at what this could acheave - imaging linking all this data, you basically have a distributed array of people sensors and an extensive log of where any one person has been on tap 24/7. How about installing RFID readers _everywhere_ - put them in airport check-ins, public transport, traffic lights, libraries, schools, the pavement, and you have amazing coverage. You could see what people were buying, reading, eating, wearing, even what underwear they had on and the best thing is it would happen automatically - the computer would build up profiles of people based on what tags were moving around, it would be able to fill in blanks from other databases - eg get on a plane and that set of RFID takes belongs to the name on your passport. Shops would be only too happy to give their database to the government in return for a few favours.

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This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.

Re:Who are we more scared of? by geekoid · 2004-02-27 09:58 · Score: 1

politicians don't really care, they just want votes.
It's the people whose job it is to watch people that we have to ear. you know, the ones who aren't elected.

--
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Re:Who are we more scared of? by krusadr · 2004-02-27 11:33 · Score: 1

Then all they do is insert a tag under our skin like a dog.

We'll be equally as 0wn3D !

--
while sco {
wget -O /dev/null http://www.sco.com?sco=litigious%20bastards
}

Son-of-a... by dannyelfman · 2004-02-27 09:40 · Score: 4, Funny

Now how am I supposed to keep track of all my wives?

Re:Son-of-a... by TheCanuck · 2004-02-27 09:55 · Score: 0, Flamebait

You mod this to a 2,Funny! At best it's off-topic. At worst it's stereotyping an entire state based on something that has not legally existed for over 100 years!!

Come on Slashdot!

--
He shoots! He Scores!!!!!

Forgot your tinfoil hat. by NineNine · 2004-02-27 09:40 · Score: 3, Insightful

You have to understand... companies do not want business from nutjobs like you because you take more time than you're worth. A http_referrer? Are you nuts? Oh wait. You are. That's not your history... it's just the site that you came from. Virtually every single website does this so they can see where their advertising money is spent the best. I don't think that an http_referrer qualifies as doing "anything" to gather info. It's equivalent to walking into a small store and the owner asking where you heard about them. But, like I said, people like you are very few and far between, so anybody with an online business really would be smart to tell you to take a flying leap. Satisfing a handful of paranoid nutjobs at the expense of knowing where their customers come from is a very bad tradeoff. BTW, have you ever thought of defeating their evil schemes by opening a browser and typing "newegg.com"??

Personal jamming / confuse the system? by dankjones · 2004-02-27 09:43 · Score: 3, Interesting

What would happen if you just walked around with hundreds of RFID tags all over your body?

Re:Personal jamming / confuse the system? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 09:54 · Score: 2, Interesting

You would have lots of RFID tags on your body, but nothing else really. People should read up about this technology before getting parnoid, currently RFID technology for consumer products is limited to a few feet at most, or:

"What's the typical read range for RFID devices?
The majority of RFID transponders have a read range of less than 3 feet. Some applications, limit the read range to around 6 to 8 inches. Some newer technologies (UHF systems) do have a longer read range that can be 20 to 25 feet, but these systems are intended for pallets and shipping crates. Read range depends on many factors, but the size of the transponder's antenna, the size of the reader's antenna and its output power are the main ones. With battery-less transponders, long read range and small size are mutually exclusive."

Taken from:
http://www.aimglobal.org/technologies/rfid/ rfid_fa qs.asp

This of course isn't to say in the future you couldn't be tracked with improved technology. However needing to jam a RFID signal right now is kinda pointless.
Re:Personal jamming / confuse the system? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 09:55 · Score: 0

What would happen if you just walked around with hundreds of RFID tags all over your body?

You'll make the guy by your side with the tinfoil hat look normal...
Re:Personal jamming / confuse the system? by AndroidCat · 2004-02-27 10:25 · Score: 1

You can do better than that. One tag with a processor or hooked to a PDA. Today I am "G.W. Bush" and a bag of chips, scan that suckers. Tomorrow, my name is Legion.

--
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.

At least a negative precedent has been set by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 09:45 · Score: 1, Insightful

Personally, I don't like this at all because of the possibilities of data mining and telemetry, and personal profiling and advertising with that data. It's good to see some eyes without cataracts in the government once in a while, but eventually consumer apathy and corporate rollout will make this a non issue. C'est la vie.

Profound Implications? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 09:46 · Score: 3, Interesting

RFID detectors could be used on sidewalks to monitor pedestrians and the things they are carrying. And it wouldn't necessarily be government. Anyone could buy a detector and just start compiling data.

Re:Profound Implications? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 09:54 · Score: 0

Now set up two or three detectors networked with wi-fi running on batteries disguised as pieces of trash or lawn ornaments and set them up a block-or-so apart and coordinate the data capturing between them and you can get speed and direction.
Re:Profound Implications? by AndroidCat · 2004-02-27 10:30 · Score: 1

Keep in mind that most RFID tags don't actively transmit. They echo the reader's transmission. Any RFID "detector" could be detected itself from a much longer distance.

--
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
Re:Profound Implications? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 14:28 · Score: 0

At least until RFID reader detectors are made illegal, just like radar detectors or even police scanners.

There are DDOS solutions... by imsabbel · 2004-02-27 09:48 · Score: 2, Informative

In order to work correctly, those tags do some kind of handshake with the base station and demand a timeslot for communication.
There is work on jammers that just simulate a really high number of different recievers, thus preventing any timeslot from actual use.

--
HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?

Information wants to be free by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 09:50 · Score: 4, Funny

Oh right, not when it's your information, only when it's a record label's information.

Re:Information wants to be free by asreal · 2004-02-27 10:22 · Score: 1

I had an interesting idea in this regard. If (when) we keep losing privacy, won't we need to be a bit more forgiving? I mean, how many of us have absolutely no dirty little secrets we wouldn't want our knowing about? Maybe in a society where we can know everything about someone, it will be more appealing to know nothing at all, and we just won't look.

--
What Future?
Re:Information wants to be free by Hentai · 2004-02-27 11:11 · Score: 2, Interesting

Look at it this way: Corporate interests will continue to fight to ensure that THEIR data is private and OURS is public; why shouldn't we do our best to fight for the opposite?

--
-Hentai [in vita non pacem est]

Re:You are teh gey by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 09:53 · Score: 0

flaccid in fort lauderdale

Don't you have a military "fort" over there.

I'm sure some army guys would be more than willing to help you with your problem provided you give them a reach-around.

Want to guarantee passage? by wowbagger · 2004-02-27 09:55 · Score: 2, Insightful

Want to guarantee passage of this law? Want to guarantee similar laws get passed elsewhere?

Subject the (senators|congresscritters|Members of Parliment|...) to the effects of life without it.

"Well, Senator Bedfellow, let's see. You bought condoms, yet your wife is out of town. You bought wine. You bought SuuperCalais (large economy bottle). You drove your car through the Expressway to a little hotel."

--
www.eFax.com are spammers

Re:Laws need to include all future forms of tracki by Obfuscant · 2004-02-27 09:55 · Score: 1

Just make it illegal to use ANY electronic database to surreptitiously track people.

Umm. Ok. So you use SpeedPass to get through the tollgates on the local freeway, and one month your bill looks higher than normal. You ask them "why is this higher?"

What should they say? "Ummm, you went through 45 dollars worth of tollgates this month, but we cannot tell you which ones". Or would you prefer they say "you went through X ten times, Y eight times, and Z two dozen times?" At least with the latter, you can argue that you've never been to Z so the charge is wrong. With the former, you are left debating how many times you went through something you didn't know you went through.

Besides, it will never happen. There are too many existing card-key and such systems being used as security for those records to ever be illegal.

And if you are hinging your argument on the word "surreptitious", I have no doubt at all that a large number, most, maybe even a majority, of SpeedPass users haven't a clue as to how they work or what kind of data is available. They choose to use the system and they don't know what it does; why would simply not knowing it exists make any significant difference? (Like the arguments made by cellular phone providers that their users don't know they are using the radio and thus have an expectation of privacy when broadcasting their personal details throughout the neighborhood.)

Remember Matrix by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 09:57 · Score: 4, Interesting

Can you really believe this since this is the very same state that wanted to send information about every citizen in the state to a company in Florida called Matrix. See http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,590041052,00 .html

Re:Remember Matrix by RobertJLove · 2004-02-27 10:32 · Score: 1

Yes, I can believe it information on all bills in Utah is available at http://www.le.state.ut.us
Re:Remember Matrix by dwillden · 2004-02-27 10:33 · Score: 2, Insightful

A plan that was set up by the previous govenor without informing anyone else about it. The current govenor pulled out as soon as she heard about it. Get your facts straight, before you accues the state as a whole of wanting to surrender all privacy rights.
Also the company isn't called Matrix, that is the name of the program/database in question.
If anything this probably prompted the passing of the bill this thread is discussing. The Matrix flack brought the issue of privacy rights to the front of everybody's minds, so when someone proposed a bill to "protect the privacy rights" the legislators were probably trying to climb over each other to be the first to vote for the bill.

--
I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.

Tech solution to privacy by AndroidCat · 2004-02-27 10:04 · Score: 5, Interesting

In the February issue of Circuit Cellar, there's an article on RFID tags and how to make your own. (Alas, it's not one of the freebee articles on their web site. Go kill a tree for a good cause.) And once you understand how something works, it's always easier to shove a potato into the works!

Starting from this, building a RFID reader detector should be easy -- know when someone is scanning for tags. After that, if some reader is looking for tags with data, why not give the poor thing some? LOUDLY. Reading the data off of some existing tags should give you an idea of what format data the reader is looking for, especially if they use any CRCs or such to stop someone from feeding the reader arbitrary data. Then feed them arbitrary data. The best part is that you really aren't transmitting with passive RFID, you're just "echoing" the reader's transmission.

The gizmo used in the project is an Atmel e5551. Google for that and you'll find lots of things to read.

--
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.

Re:Doubt it will last by Dalcius · 2004-02-27 10:09 · Score: 1

Or how about instead of voting for bad candidates to see your will done, file complaints left and right with store managers and drive the chain crazy with complaints until they stop?

Ah, silly me, that'd take effort.

Cheers

--
~Dalcius
Rome wasn't burnt in a day.

That's because... by MMHere · 2004-02-27 10:15 · Score: 0, Offtopic

Troll bait, I know, but I couldn't resist:

Utahians don't want retailers to know how many of their wives are buying jeans at the Gap at the same time ...

In the end, it doesn't matter by pturley · 2004-02-27 10:16 · Score: 4, Interesting

RFID is a red herring. It's needed now simply because our computer technology can't understand what's going on around it without a little help. As soon as computers can understand what they're seeing through a video camera, they'll just *look* at you and your basket and gather the same information. Are we going to ban video cameras in order to protect our privacy?

Instead of arguing about whatever particular technologies happen to be available now, let's jump forward to the final argument. Unless you're inside your house, or some other friendly enclosure, you will be observable - and how can we really complain about anyone just *noticing* what they see and recording information about it, regardless of what their purposes are? I'm not really sure where this question will eventually lead but, in the end, it's the truly relevant question.

Re:In the end, it doesn't matter by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 15:59 · Score: 0

RFID tags cannot be conceiled visually. Normally, when we walk around outside, we place things we don't want others to see in opaque containers. This is much harder to do with RFID, since you need containers opaque to the radio frequencies that they use. It is also much simpler to place RFID detectors to track things than to do visual processing on complex scenes. Houses are not really opaque, either, you can watch some of what's going on inside with suitable hardware. Finally, we can complain about someone having access to certain information in certain circumstances (the precise information and circumstances regularly debated). This is the essence of privacy.
Re:In the end, it doesn't matter by Lord+Omlette · 2004-02-28 12:01 · Score: 1

I'd like to disagree w/ you because all artificial intelligence slash computer vision stuff is based on context. RFID tags provide very helpful context clues. They'll be used hand-in-hand w/ vision algorithms, not be replaced by them.

--
[o]_O

Re:WOW NEVER THOUGHT CULT WACKO UTAH WOULD EVER DO by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 10:21 · Score: 0

After reading your post, I do not believe you are in any position to be calling other people crazy.

Do you act differently when you are watched? by NotQuiteReal · 2004-02-27 10:21 · Score: 2, Insightful

If so, why? I mean, I wash my hands after going to the bathroom, at home, alone. Because it is the right thing to do.

While I don't ACT any differently I certainly do my share of database pollution, wrong phone numebrs, bad zip codes, etc. Every chance I get. Just because I don't like being watched, and don't make it easy, I don't act any differently when I am.

--
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.

Re:SHUT UP SHUT THE HELL UP SHUT UP SHUT UP by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 10:24 · Score: 0

no, by far the most annoying thing to write is

"just my 2 cents worth"
or
"rim-shot"

at the end of your post. Makes me want to explode heads like in scanners

What's wrong with Utah by Supp0rtLinux · 2004-02-27 10:44 · Score: 0, Offtopic

Come on... whp in their right mind would want to move to Utah?

They have SCO

They have mulitple wife Mormon's

And now they're pushing for legislation to invade our privacy

What's wrong with these people? Is there something in the air?

The only thing necessary for Micro$oft to triumph is for a few good programmers to do nothing". North County Computers

Re:What's wrong with Utah by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 11:44 · Score: 0

It is a sad world we live in where 1 man with N wives is rediculed, but a couple of fags getting hitched in SanFran is accepted.
Re:What's wrong with Utah by Supp0rtLinux · 2004-02-27 12:57 · Score: 0, Flamebait

I didn't say I accepted homosexual marriage. I'be happy to ridicule homosexuals as much as Mormons. Though personally, I think it would be easier to be homosexual and married than heterosexual and have more than one wife. At least the homosexual only has one partner to come home to each night. I pity the man that has to come home to more than one wife bitching at him each night.

I'm not a homophobe. I'm not scared of homosexuals or of finding I have a homosexual nature. I'm simply disgusted by what they do.

I'm not prejudiced. I'm an equal opportunity racist.

The only thing necessary for Micro$oft to triumph is for a few good programmers to do nothing". North County Computers

RTFA by yeremein · 2004-02-27 10:50 · Score: 3, Informative

They're pushing for legislation to *protect* our privacy. At least, in the article linked to the story, they are.

Now... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 10:52 · Score: 0

Why don't they pass a law against IP 'vampires'?

*cough*SCO*cough*

Just wondering...

(And yes, I know they can't use laws against anyone retroactively, but still...)

Of course, most of the problems are in Federal law anyhow, so... Hrm...

Re:RFID? You Thinking of DoS or virus stickers? by asbestos_tophat · 2004-02-27 11:12 · Score: 0

Yes, RF chirp, listen, and filter. Bands of interest (as broadcast is license free): 88.1MHz 443MHz 900MHz 1.21GHz 1.3MHz 5GHz etc... Of course the Tag and Key crowds think its funny. Static electrify, strong emf, low level ionizing radiation, and heat are known to erase or corrupt these devices. Of course there are also concerns of someone writing a delayed walking random ID jammer (Hardware DoS) and embedded binary virus stickers the size of a grain of rice. ;-)

Orin Hatch... by sacrilicious · 2004-02-27 11:14 · Score: 2, Funny

... is probably turning over in his grave.

And yes yes I know, but I wish he was.

--
- First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.

Pairing data doesn't require RFID's. by sl3xd · 2004-02-27 11:17 · Score: 2, Informative

RFID's are an interesting thing -- but one that people haven't thought through when they decide to get paranoid about them.

But here's the real ticket: You know all those 'Visa Check Card' commercials? Since they've become more common, ever notice how much people use a check card to buy everything from groceries to gasoline?

So, you go to the grocery store to get some groceries. You go to the checkout counter, they scan the bar codes, and the sale is stored in a database, itemized completely. Then you swipe your credit-card (or check card) to purchase said groceries. Your credit card is linked directly to your identity, which is then linked to the items purchased, and the retailer has the beginnings of a customer profile on you. Same story at Best Buy, CompUSA, or anyplace else with a credit/debit card reader.

So how this kind of linking differs from an RFID tag, which is essentially a faster bar-code (in the case of retail purchases) really does escape me... If you're that paranoid about T.H.E.M.M. (The Hegemony of Evil Marketers and Merchants) keeping track of your purchases, then pay cash -- RFID's just make it so you get to the point you fork the stuff over more quickly than bar codes do. Hell, I imagine paying by check would be just as effective, because who in their right mind is going to spend the time to link the check to a particular purchase? OCR isn't that good yet...

Case in point: Before February, I've never purchased gasoline at a Chevron station. More to the point: I've never paid for fuel with anything but cash before. Well in February, I decided to both get some petrol from a Chevron station, and to pay with my check card; not a really big deal, right? Imagine my suprise when days later I recieved a letter in the mail offering a Chevron credit card! (having never heard from the company before).

Bottom line: RFID's won't make privacy problems any worse than they already are. Your worst fears about RFID's have pretty much already come to pass.

--
-- Sometimes you have to turn the lights off in order to see.

Re:Pairing data doesn't require RFID's. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 11:44 · Score: 0

If you're that paranoid about T.H.E.M.M. (The Hegemony of Evil Marketers and Merchants) keeping track of your purchases, then pay cash

until cash is outlawed, because only criminals would try to conceal their identities by using cash.

FYI by gd2shoe · 2004-02-27 11:30 · Score: 2, Informative

For your information.

"Mormon" is a nick name for members of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints." Those found to be practiceing plural marrige are excommunicated. I've heard them called mormon fundamentalist, but I don't see anything fundamental about how they practice. This is true, not only in spite of history, but particularly in veiw of it.

And yes, such do exist in Utah.

--
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.

Talk about your bigotry by gd2shoe · 2004-02-27 11:58 · Score: 1

Yes, you've done some research, or more likely read some one sided material.

The church was actually very kind to blacks, and has always been against slavery (One of the reason the church was kicked out of Missouri, look that up if you want to read about discrimination). If you want to look at if from an ethnocentric point of view, it just took the Church longer than other less tolerant churches.

Yes, the "Book of Mormon" does teach that the darker skin was a marking given to their ancestors for wickedness, but also holds many wonderful promises for them. They are doctrinally unresponsible for that SPECIFIC wickedness. They haven't been discriminated against. In fact, the Church took a LOT of flak for trying to proselytize them. They have always been a valuable part of doctrine and culture.

You may have your opinion, but please try to understand all angles first. And voice it as an opinion, not as absolute truth.

--
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.

Re:Talk about your bigotry by daperdan · 2004-02-27 12:16 · Score: 1

Nice Spin.

Blacks could not take part in Temple ordinances. This meant that they could never attain the highest degree of glory (Celestial Kingdom). You're theology teaches that a person must receive his/her endowments before he/she can enter the highest degree of glory. No blacks were allowed to participate in temple ordinance until 1978. This is fact not opinion. Show me where a black man had temple work done before 1978.

Black people were also prohibitted from any leadership in the LDS church due to the fact that leadership requires the priesthood.

As a former missionary and a person that has studied a great deal of histroy on the subject I understand the angles.

BSDM by snartal · 2004-02-27 11:58 · Score: 0

They were gonna do some kinky stuf. Maybe a cutting. Damn dumb to do while drunk, tho.

Apology by gd2shoe · 2004-02-27 12:03 · Score: 1

I meant to change my header before I submitted. I hope that didn't offend you.

--
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.

German Retailer just dropped RFID by MountainLogic · 2004-02-27 12:43 · Score: 1

The German Retailer Metro just anounced that it is dropping RFID tags

Re:German Retailer just dropped RFID by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 13:02 · Score: 0

Uh, you might want to re-read that article. They said they are dropping RFID tags into all of their products.

objective view by gd2shoe · 2004-02-27 13:01 · Score: 1

An objective view sounds like a good idea. That was actually what he was suggesting, though it didn't exactly sound like it. There is so much junk literature written on the Church that he (I'm guessing) and I would suggest that people look at both sides of the story. It sounds like you've at least heard some details, which is more than almost anyone who mocks Utah because of polygamy. (Comment to parent )By the way, which comments are you referring to. I have heard at least one comment that Brigham made when young that he later retracted (shortly after becoming church president). Many in the church who delight in actually learning what the church teaches take some of McConkie's comments with a grain of salt (I don't think that book is still in print either, but I could be wrong). I would still like to know what your referring to though (unless you just dug it out of some one sided bashing book, but you sound more intelligent than that).

--
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.

ANTI MORMON CONSPIRACY by daperdan · 2004-02-27 13:12 · Score: 0, Flamebait

(Journal of Discourses 7:290)
"You see some classes of the human family THAT ARE BLACK, uncouth, uncomely, DISAGREEABLE and low in their habits. WILD, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. Cain slew his brother, Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. THIS WAS NOT TO BE. and THE LORD PUT A MARK UPON HIM, which is THE FLAT NOSE and THE BLACK SKIN. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, AND they NEVER can hold the Priesthood OR share in it UNTIL ALL (ALL) the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. UNTIL THE LAST ONES of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favorable position, the children of Cain CANNOT receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, AND they will be THE LAST from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, THEN (then) the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion."

Look it up for yourself. As a Mormon are tought to steer clear of "Anti-Mormon" literature.
What you refer to as "Anti-Mormon" literature the rest of us call history.

It sickened me too to find all this garbage in the Mormon closet after serving a mission and being a faithful member that was married in the temple. You and I were trained to discount this kind of information immediately and file it on the forbidden "Anti Mormon" shelf in our brains. The facts speak for themselves.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. You won't find this information in the Church manuals because all church history is sterilized for Mormon consumption. How do you like your bullshit?

Angles by gd2shoe · 2004-02-27 13:32 · Score: 1

Apparently you do. But in that case you are willfully ignoring some of the most basic teachings of the church. God is just, and doesn't expect temple ordinances to be performed by those who he doesn't give that ability. Most churches teach that those who die without accepting Christ are damned, even those who never hear the name. Others teach that unbaptized infants are damned because their parents made a mistake.

You know, as do I, that it is church doctrine, and always has been, that those denied the blessings of the Temple and who are as righteous and worthy as anyone else WILL receive exaltation (Celestial kingdom, highest degree). That includes those who were not allowed to enter the temple of no fault of their own. Yes, they need those ordinances. But they have a right to them that will be honored postmortem (This is also fair, but another discussion, not racial). You knew that too. Or at least you really should have at some point.

--
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.

Re:Angles by daperdan · 2004-02-27 13:43 · Score: 1

You are willfully spinning the issue. The past comments of men that supposedly spoke with Jesus Christ were bigoted and racist. That doctrine has never been denounced. It will always be associated with your religion because there has been no effort to erradicate it.

It's interesting to note that Joseph Smith's son removed the ban as the prophet of the RLDS church. According to your religion, he was an apostate and was not divinely guided yet he was able to see the ignorance in this teaching more than 100 years before the LDS Church.
Re:Angles by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 14:01 · Score: 0

The past comments of men that supposedly spoke with Jesus Christ were bigoted and racist. That doctrine has never been denounced.

A couple of points:

#1- The LDS church does not teach that everything that it's leaders say is doctrine coming straight from the mouth of Jesus. On the contrary, they teach that the leaders are only speaking "doctrine" when they are inspired by the Holy Spirit. So how do we know when the leaders are speaking by the spirit or when they just have indigestion? Funny you should ask! That brings us to #2.

#2- The LDS church teaches its members to question everything individually. The prophet can speak for the church, but don't take his word for it. Go straight to the source and ask for a confirmation of what he said!

Now here is a nice trick- tonight, why don't you kneal down and ask God if what Brigham Young or [Insert any former member of the LDS church here that you dislike] was speaking with the Spirit when he said whatever it is you disagree with. Then go ahead and follow up by asking if the Book of Mormon is true scripture. You will get an answer.
Re:Angles by daperdan · 2004-02-27 14:12 · Score: 1

Now here is a nice trick- tonight, why don't you kneal down and ask God if what Brigham Young or [Insert any former member of the LDS church here that you dislike] was speaking with the Spirit when he said whatever it is you disagree with. Then go ahead and follow up by asking if the Book of Mormon is true scripture. You will get an answer.

I just wanted to repost this so more people get a chance to get a laugh.

#2- The LDS church teaches its members to question everything individually. The prophet can speak for the church, but don't take his word for it. Go straight to the source and ask for a confirmation of what he said!

Blind obedience is taught in the Mormon Church. It is taught that if you do what a leader tells you to do and it is wrong then you will be blessed for your obedience.

I encourage you to take your blinders off and really investigate. Look at what the critics have to say. If it's true you have nothing to loose. The truth cannot be hurt by lies. It stands up to scrutiny.

How can you consider yourself a good and faithful servant if you don't do the proper investigation before asking the spirit. You have to weigh the matter in your mind before asking the spirit. In order to properly weigh the matter in your mind you must investigate. Investigation requires you to see both sides of the story. Not just what is spoon fed to you by the Church.
Re:Angles by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 14:26 · Score: 0

I just wanted to repost this so more people get a chance to get a laugh.

I'm glad you find that amusing. I also assume that means you are not going to do it. Why is that? Are you afraid that you might actually get an answer?

Blind obedience is taught in the Mormon Church. It is taught that if you do what a leader tells you to do and it is wrong then you will be blessed for your obedience.

There is nothing blind about the obedience that is taught in the Mormon church. If you believe this, then I encourage YOU to take off YOUR blinders and actually listen to what the Mormon church is teaching. I also encourage you to stop making assumptions about my believes and my experiences, because you have no insight into my convictions.
Re:Angles by daperdan · 2004-02-27 14:53 · Score: 1

I'm glad you find that amusing. I also assume that means you are not going to do it. Why is that? Are you afraid that you might actually get an answer?

Just so you know. I'm served a mission and I also served as 1st Councilor in the bishopric. I've been very deep into your cult.

Asks yourself something: When you're sick do you go to a doctor or do you rely on the Spirit to heal you?

Why don't you have the faith to allow the power of god to solve your problem?

I use common sense and reason to come to my conclusions. If I relied on the brainwashing I'd come to the same conclusion you have.

Cult programming is very powerful. I understand why you say what you say.

People who rely on the wisperings of God often do crazy things like flying a jet plane into the twin towers. I'd encourage you to listen more to the spirit of common sense.
Re:Angles by Akhiro · 2004-02-27 15:42 · Score: 1

So what was it? Adultery? Pornography? Alcohol? Drugs? Or was it more mundane? Hurt feelings? Pride in your own wisdom? Pride in general? By What flaxen chord have you been snared and placed in the chains by which you are so obviously bound? In what great and spacious building do you now reside?

Whatever it is, you can overcome it, unless you are beyond feeling. I hope that you're not.
Re:Angles by ScarKnee · 2004-02-27 19:10 · Score: 1

There is nothing "cult-ish" about Mormonism. If you believe that we belong to a cult, then so be it. I suggest you read John, chapter 10 and ponder on what it means to be a follower of Christ. You may think that we Mormons act as sheep at times, but there is a very good reason that we do; we follow The Good Shepherd and know his voice.

You are entitled to your opinions... you may post your opinions... I'll probably read your opinions and find them inflammatory, and that's ok.

I have my beliefs and they are based upon a knowledge that this world cannot give, but upon a knowledge that the Spirit of God gave to me. You may or may not have had that same knowledge in the past... you certainly don't now. You've thought yourself out of believing truth. Your allowed your own pride and the malicious intents of others (your Anti-Mormon Literature folks) to take you away from the truth. I feel badly for your decision to search for truth in works of hate, but we've all got the right to choose for ourselves and use our God-given agency.

I live in Utah, but wasn't raised LDS. I used to be a Southern Baptist. I have not been brainwashed by my parents, Bishop, missionaries, or anyone else. I have followed the Spirit of God. I have seen/experienced too many sacred and precious events to have any ability to entertain the idea that I belong to a 'cult'. I have not forced any spiritual event to happen by some figment of my imagination as Ayn Rand-ites would have you to believe, but what I've experienced was very real. I would expound further, but I decline to cast pearls before swine. ( I only call you swine in the figurative sense because you wouldn't see the worth in my experience, and only trample it under you feet as dross).

At any rate... you have your hate-filled opinions supported by hate-filled ex-Mormons and so-called Christian groups, and I have the truth, which you chose to throw out of your life.

And, oh, the comment about flying a jet plane into the twin towers was a bit overboard. Yes, people have done horrible things in the name of God, but were they really acting for him? I think not. Taken as a general whole (there are some LDS folk who drive me crazy, too), when we listen to the "whisperings of God" we donate clothing and food to the poor, help a neighbor, say a prayer for someone, help other churches out, and many other kindly things that are not all done just to be in some sort of spotlight the world will see.

Oh, and I think the new RFID legislation is a good thing. Just to keep part of this thread on-topic.

G'day
Re:Angles by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 19:41 · Score: 0

Read up on cults. You find that something that is very typical of cults is the reaction you've had to doubters and critics like myself. When a member is disaffected the cult members react the way you have. There must be something really wrong. Some great sin.

Yes I'm an Adulterer and an Pornographer. And I drink and do drugs and I have hurt feelings... Or maybe I have too much common sense.

This church is falling. Take a look at this site.:www.cumorah.org. You'll see that the growth of the church is slowing. It's at a crawl. In the next 10 years you'll see even more slowed growth. It seems that cults are no longer in style. Enjoy your next stake leadership meeting in your great and spacious building your judgemental self righteous prick!
Re:Angles by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-28 01:16 · Score: 0

So what was it? Adultery? Pornography? Alcohol? Drugs?

As an active member of the church, I must say that this is an exhibit of one of the most damning and self-destructive attitudes of members of the church.

On the one hand, teaching that everyone should find out for himself whether it is true, by his own efforts and integrity.

On the other hand claiming automatically that anyone who might have tried it out, done his best, and found it lacking, must have committed some major sin or be otherwise spiritually incompetent -- that no one could honestly come to any conclusion besides the one you came to.

This by itself threatens to thoroughly discredit the entire message of the Mormon Church.
Re:Angles by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-28 01:34 · Score: 0

And, oh, the comment about flying a jet plane into the twin towers was a bit overboard. Yes, people have done horrible things in the name of God, but were they really acting for him? I think not. Taken as a general whole (there are some LDS folk who drive me crazy, too), when we listen to the "whisperings of God" we donate clothing and food to the poor, help a neighbor, say a prayer for someone, help other churches out, and many other kindly things that are not all done just to be in some sort of spotlight the world will see.

Most religiously-convinced groups have some balance or they would have self-destructed long ago. The reasons the Palestinean groups are so popular is that they perform so many charitable actions at home. Each believes they have the universal doctrine and if only everyone would follow it, there would be no war.

And when they do not, you can decide what to do by listening to the quiet whisperings of the spirit telling you to go cut a man's head off because he own a set of records you want, or listening to the "whisperings of God" on a quiet September 11th morning at Mountain Meadows, preparing for a Mormon massacre.

The sanity cannot be judged for the church as a whole -- there are too many counter examples. But clearly there are more than a few tolerant Mormons. The Mormons aren't really worse than other groups in the world around it. There are horrible examples of blind following of leaders everywhere you look.
Re:Angles by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-28 03:53 · Score: 0

It's refreshing that this point of the religion is recognized by someone on the inside.

Re: "How do you like your bullshit?" by gd2shoe · 2004-02-27 13:48 · Score: 1

Better than yours. I'll take that quote into consideration though. But I think you know what I'm talking about when it comes to "Anti-Mormon" literature. Most of it really is pure troll, though some valid concerns exist. I'm not talking Sunday school manual comparison, either, but what I've learned studying the Standard Works ('Mormon' scriptures including the Bible).

--
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.

Reply by gd2shoe · 2004-02-27 13:52 · Score: 1

I am not willfully spinning the issues and you know it. Please get through your bitterness and be civil.

--
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.

Re:Reply by daperdan · 2004-02-27 14:15 · Score: 1

You're right. You're not willfully spinning. You can't help it. You've been trained to react in such a way. It's the nature of a narrow minded individual blinded by religious ignorance. Thanks for proving my point.

Have you seen minority report? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 13:54 · Score: 0

Have you seen minority report?

Of course it's important in Utah by Call+Me+Black+Cloud · 2004-02-27 13:56 · Score: 1

Think of the implications. You have 14 wives, each with an RFID tag. You can track them coming and going but do you want the government to know about them? Of course not. The mormons had to renouce polygamy as a condition of statehood, wink wink.

I, with my one wife, have no such problems. I know where she is by listening to her periodic yelling at the kids.

Re: "How do you like your bullshit?" by daperdan · 2004-02-27 14:04 · Score: 1

You are absolutely correct. Most anti-mormon literature is backed by some crazy born again organization.

I understand your tendancy to group all "Anti Mormon" writings as trash. A cult defends itself by creating these kind of defense mechanisms. Apostates are quickly shunned and removed and their "sickness" is blamed on "Anti Mormon Literature".

Don't take my word for it. You owe it to yourself to investigate. It's painful at first but I think you'll find the truth somewhat liberating.

Re:Doubt it will last by Xyrus · 2004-02-27 14:38 · Score: 2, Funny

It's simple really. Make an low range EMP pulse device. Disconnected antenna or not, unless those tags are surrounded by a faraday cage an EMP will fry them.

Popular Mechanics had article a while back about how to make a high yield EMP bomb for $400. That article should be pretty interesting for any tin-foil hatters out there who want to burn out all RFID tags within city limits. :P

Thought it was a little disturbing myself. :)

~X
Random Quote:"Are you kidding? They really are out to get me?"

--
~X~

Re:Laws need to include all future forms of tracki by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 15:48 · Score: 0

Payment systems can use anonymous electronic cash. Payment made at time of transaction. No monthly bill, nothing to complain about. Or you can choose privacy (no record in bill, no identifying information), e.g., using a prepaid card, against possible future complaining or convenience (record in bill), therefore not surreptitious. You can also have it both ways: you store (own) the data, only it's authenticated (signed, encrypted), rather than available in a central database where anyone (company, meddlers, governments, etc.) can get at it.

Speedpass is interesting, since MA turnpike (one of speedpass' users) is supposed to be free. The turnpike authority purchased a more expensive, and more privacy invasive system, than that bidded on by a rival company (according to claims of the counterbidder appearing years ago in the Boston Globe). Further, economically, speedpass makes no sense; congestion taxes make sense, but speedpass is not operated as a congestion tax but rather as a user tax, which is economically inefficient.

The counter-argument from "it is too prevalent" is specious. Systems can be modified over time. At a minimum, future systems can be prohibited, like face tracking and RFID.

Providers and creators of technology have a responsibility to society, not just to their pocketbooks. That some people do not understand what is going on is not a reason to allow it to go on.

Two words: by John+Harrison · 2004-02-27 23:02 · Score: 1

Low humidity.

This means that the fact that it is hotter in the summer and colder in the winter isn't a big deal. In Utah it can be below freezing and you'll see people out in a light jacket. Compare that to Boston, where below freezing requires a thick parka plus hat and gloves. It isn't that the people of Utah are used to the cold. It is that the cold doesn't go right through you. The higher altitude helps with this as well.

Same goes for the summer. Low humidity means that when you sweat it actually evaporates which has two nice effects:
1. It cools you down.
2. You don't get all wet and sweaty.

Try that in Seattle when it is hot.

As for lots more snow, that is mostly confined to the mountains. I don't know if you've visited the Salt Lake area before, but it is at about the 4,400 foot level and has 10,000 foot mountains directly to the east. This means that you can have no snow at your house and still be skiing on over 100 inches in less than 20 minutes. It is also nice in the summer since it is cooler in the mountains, sort of like a really long spring.

It does snow occasionally in the valley, and some years it even piles up but as the other poster mentioned, it isn't a big deal. I can only remember three times when they closed school while growing up. The last one it has snowed over two and a half feet. I turned on the TV in the morning hoping to see that school was closed. Oddly, my high school was the only one closed. Why was that? Some idiot had come along at night and broke a bunch of windows so it was cold in the building. Everybody else just went to school in over two feet of snow. No big deal.

In Boston they have gotten two big storms while I've been here, but they've closed the schools many more times than that. Of course the snow is heavier here.

Finally in Utah there is this odd thing that happens summer, spring, winter and fall: Sunshine. Try saying THAT about Seattle. :)

In the interest of fairness I should mention that there are occasionally nasty inversions in the winter. There was a bad one this year.

--
Lasers Controlled Games!

Re:Two words: by cens0r · 2004-02-28 03:43 · Score: 1

In the summer in seattle it's as dry as anywhere I've ever lived (dallas, oklahoma, iowa) There's very little humidity and it just doesn't rain. Plus it doesn't really get hot. They'll be a handful of days in the mid 80's, one or two days in the 90's, and about 100+ days of 75 and sunny.

This means that you can have no snow at your house and still be skiing on over 100 inches in less than 20 minutes. It is also nice in the summer since it is cooler in the mountains, sort of like a really long spring.

That's exactly how it is here. The closest ski area is 20 miles from here. They get 400+ in of snow, I get probably an average of 1 or 2.

Finally in Utah there is this odd thing that happens summer, spring, winter and fall: Sunshine. Try saying THAT about Seattle. :)

It's very sunny here in the summer and fall (at least till november. The winters can be a little dull, but rain in the city means snow in the mountains. And the summer weather more than makes up for it.

--
Jack Valenti and Orrin Hatch will be first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
Re:Two words: by John+Harrison · 2004-03-01 09:29 · Score: 1

In the summer in seattle it's as dry as anywhere I've ever lived (dallas, oklahoma, iowa)
My friend, you don't know dry. Utah, Nevada, Arizona, those are dry places.
As for the snowfall, we're using different measurements. I'm using base depth, you're using the season total, which at Alta and Snowbird is over 600 inches. Plus you are saying that the closest ski are is 20 miles away. I am saying that the closest seven ski areas are less than 20 miles away.

--
Lasers Controlled Games!

If the US military would use these on WMDs by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-28 01:41 · Score: 0

Now, if the US military would just use these RFIDs on their WMDs, they wouldn't have so much trouble reposessing them when one of their dictators of convenience develops an independent streak. They knew they sold them to Iraq, but had no idea where Sadaam stashed them, and now look like such fools.

RFID ignorance by gubbas · 2004-02-28 16:17 · Score: 1

"They" already tie barcodes to your personal identification. You think Walmart isn't tracking the spending habits for each debit/credit card used? You're kidding yourself. RFID is a better barcode, plain and simple. It is not some magic tracking device that allows a retailer to track your every move any more than they already can. So, put your paranoia away and rest asure that you can still purchase your Playboys with cash and nobody is the wiser.

--
"What I need is an exact list of specific unknown problems we might encounter."

Re:Doubt it will last by Dinglenuts · 2004-03-01 10:26 · Score: 1

Even better idea, get rid of all government identification. That'll make it nigh impossible for private businesses to track your purchases without your permission

--

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son.

re:on the inside by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-01 14:24 · Score: 0

It's recognized by quite a few, actually. It's particularly recognized by those in leadership. There are problems in the church on a widespread individual basis though, but this is because people either follow blindly or follow after that first confirmation of the spirit, and then never bother to continue learning. It's sad, really. In a sense, it has been something the brethren have fought since the 1830's. Those who are more tolerant and kind tend to be those who are willing to admit that they were once wrong as they continue to learn.

The idea that disillusion is associated with sin is not really an assumption. I've heard sufficient 2nd hand accounts to know that there is defiantly a link there, but what the sociological explanation is, is beyond me. It is going too far in my opinion to make an assumption.

Re:on the inside by gd2shoe · 2004-03-01 14:27 · Score: 1

correction to the end of that:

It is going too far to assume that a sin is involved.

--
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.

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Utah Leads the Way Toward RFID Privacy Legislation

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