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Tracking Via Anonymous SIM Cards
Noryungi writes "The New York Times reports that Al Qaeda operatives were tracked using the ID of the GSM phone chips sold by a Swiss company named Swisscom. Very interesting."
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How is this a big deal, they can track cell phones... not news.
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
The terrorism investigation code-named Mont Blanc began almost by accident in April 2002, when authorities intercepted a cellphone call that lasted less than a minute and involved not a single word of conversation. Investigators, suspicious that the call was a signal between terrorists [...]
Read that again: investigators became suspicious after listening to the call. They basically admit to what people have suspected for years: that intelligence agencies cast a broad net to monitor all sorts of communications traffic with little regard to the law or your privacy.
Naturally, playing the Fear Card will let them justify their actions. "Fear" is government's best excuse for carte blanche destruction of your freedoms.
Trolling is a art,
The terrorists were lulled into a false sense of security when they kept changing phones, but took their SIM cards from one phone to the next to keep their number and minutes. Therefore, while the hardware changed, the identity didn't. That's what did them in...
traked via anonymous post
The terrorism investigation code-named Mont Blanc began almost by accident in April 2002, when authorities intercepted a cellphone call that lasted less than a minute and involved not a single word of conversation.
I think what I find particularily frightening about that sentence from the article is the implication that this was initiated by what appears to be routine cellphone monitoring.
Is this kind of thing routine?
- sarcasm is just one more service we offer -
for buying 867-5309.
Before anybody thinks the spooks were monitoring the "anonymous" prepaid cell phones randomly... RTFA. What got the investigation started was that they found a list of phone numbers when arresting another terrorist, and they all turned out to lead into the hands of high-value targets and the people who spoke to them.
it was the Freemasons that shot down TWA 800.
Psst.... Theres a black helicopter over your house right now!! Seriously, I dont like PATRIOT and the other crap pushed on us by the paniced public any more than anybody else, but saying the Navy shot down that plane is just ignorant.
"Hand me the bullet-shooty-thing and a box of little hurts" -Overheard on a USMC Rifle range
So they think I am always in my underwear drawer, since that is where the SIM card for my last GSM phone has resided for the last year.
TDMA for life!
"Windows Me offers tremendous reliability and stability improvements..." -- Paul Thurott
Swisscom
When anger rises, think of the consequences.
Confucius (551 BC - 479 BC)
a little terrifying, but not so terrifying that i'm going to stop using my cell phone. hey, i don't fit the profile and i only discuss my evil plans back-to-back through a voice modulator. and my secret code is way cooler than thirty seconds of silence.
-ninjaneer
There was never any legitimate need to upgrade the infrastructure to allow for tracking any cell user at will.
And that's why the big brother guys, like the CIA, NSA and FBI really pushed for that type of infrastructure to be developed, right? But... oh wait, it was actually some of the northern states who thought it might be nice to be able to help find people lost in snow storms.
Oh... just noticed this, you're a kook. TWA 800 shot down? Sure sure... ding! time to take your medicine
When I bought my latest phone, I had to get the SIM card activated, the salesman asked me for my name, address, etc.. so I began pulling out my wallet for him to copy my ID down. So instead.. he gives me a scrap piece of paper and a pen to put it down, this really seems weird to me.
Nothing was stopping me from putting down the wrong info (looking back now, maybe I should have). It just struck me as odd how easy it would have been to fake it all..
Dit is toch een engelstalige site? ;-)
Like in Bad Company, starring Anthony Hopkins and Chris Rock.
Here's the cover-up.
Clinton signed that Executive Order the day after the French periodical Paris Match published the radar transcripts showing that there was something else in the air next to TWA 800 when it exploded.
Nobody's expecting you to remove your blinders. But maybe if you could just take a peek every now and again at the world outside, you know, a sort of reality check.
Is this truly the only Earth I can live on?
It's no different than what happened after TWA 800 was shot down by the Navy.
Look at how fast they adapted (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's a tip mods: read the whole f'en post before moderating. Clearly, this guy has some "issues".
March 4, 2004
How Tiny Swiss Cellphone Chips Helped Track Global Terror Web
By DON VAN NATTA Jr. and DESMOND BUTLER
ONDON, March 2 -- The terrorism investigation code-named Mont Blanc began almost by accident in April 2002, when authorities intercepted a cellphone call that lasted less than a minute and involved not a single word of conversation.
Investigators, suspicious that the call was a signal between terrorists, followed the trail first to one terror suspect, then to others, and eventually to terror cells on three continents.
What tied them together was a computer chip smaller than a fingernail. But before the investigation wound down in recent weeks, its global net caught dozens of suspected Qaeda members and disrupted at least three planned attacks in Saudi Arabia and Indonesia, according to counterterrorism and intelligence officials in Europe and the United States.
The investigation helped narrow the search for one of the most wanted men in the world, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, who is accused of being the mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks, according to three intelligence officials based in Europe. American authorities arrested Mr. Mohammed in Pakistan last March.
For two years, investigators now say, they were able to track the conversations and movements of several Qaeda leaders and dozens of operatives after determining that the suspects favored a particular brand of cellphone chip. The chips carry prepaid minutes and allow phone use around the world.
Investigators said they believed that the chips, made by Swisscom of Switzerland, were popular with terrorists because they could buy the chips without giving their names.
"They thought these phones protected their anonymity, but they didn't," said a senior intelligence official based in Europe. Even without personal information, the authorities were able to conduct routine monitoring of phone conversations.
A half dozen senior officials in the United States and Europe agreed to talk in detail about the previously undisclosed investigation because, they said, it was completed. They also said they had strong indications that terror suspects, alert to the phones' vulnerability, had largely abandoned them for important communications and instead were using e-mail, Internet phone calls and hand-delivered messages.
"This was one of the most effective tools we had to locate Al Qaeda," said a senior counterterrorism official in Europe. "The perception of anonymity may have lulled them into a false sense of security. We now believe that Al Qaeda has figured out that we were monitoring them through these phones."
The officials called the operation one of the most successful investigations since Sept. 11, 2001, and an example of unusual cooperation between agencies in different countries. Led by the Swiss, the investigation involved agents from more than a dozen countries, including the United States, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Germany, Britain and Italy.
Cellphones have played a major role in the constant jousting between terrorists and intelligence agencies. In their requests for more investigative powers, Attorney General John Ashcroft and other officials have repeatedly cited the importance of monitoring portable phones. Each success by investigators seems to drive terrorists either to more advanced -- or to more primitive -- communications.
During the American bombing of Tora Bora in Afghanistan in December 2001, American authorities reported hearing Osama bin Laden speaking to his associates on a satellite phone. Since then, Mr. bin Laden has communicated with handwritten messages delivered by trusted couriers, officials said.
In 2002 the German authorities broke up a cell after monitoring calls by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who has been linked by some top American officials to Al Qaeda, in which he could be heard ordering attacks on Jewish targets in Germany. Since then, investigators say, Mr. Zarqawi has been more cautious.
"If you beat terrorists over the h
spoke
This is the reason I don't carry a cell phone. (other than the fact that I am a student and couldn't really afford it) This is also why I refuse to use the key cards that the school provides for us to open the doors. Call me paranoid, but I don't want anyone knowing where I am. Its just a personal thing.
If you want a cell phone that can give your location to authorities, buy one with a built-in GPS receiver that transmits your location. There was never any legitimate need to upgrade the infrastructure to allow for tracking any cell user at will.
As far as I was aware, that infrastructure was in place from the very beginning.
In order for a cellphone company to properly give you service, they have to arrange for a series of cell towers over a wide range of space. These towers provide your signal. For uninterrupted service, the service-areas of each tower must overlap to a degree.
In order to bill you properly when you are roaming, the towers must be able to check your location against your home calling areas (for people with plans where this still exists). Which tower you're using at any given time is a matter of record.
If the argument is that they don't have your location down to a 10-meter square block, you might wanna guess again; by watching the way that your phone moves through the spheres of influence each tower generates it becomes mathematically trivial to triangulate your position with a precision that GPS would find envious.
If you're drudging out the `Navy shot down TWA 800` theory I'm tempted to classify you as a troll. Please don't bother frightening Slashdot with your Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt lines about the lack of privacy we now have post 9/11 -- you never had it to begin with.
So now that they have exposed this strategy so it won't work anymore, what is their next strategy that they aren't telling us? What is the cost to our right to privacy?
The article talks about the "accidental" listening of cell phone calls. I've worked for the government, nothing is accidental. There's usuall three forms of paperwork for everything
Seppuku: Your solution to my problems!
...I suggest we start installing tracking devices into powered exoskeletons before it's too late.
no matter how you spin it, it is possible to track your location with normal gsm phones very easily if you own the network(got the locations of the gsm towers, got the signal strengths to those towers-> simbsalapimpska: you got the location. this has worked 'reliably' for YEARS).. ..due to privacy reasons this hasn't been used that much for anything around here, you know there's some goverments who can't afford to screw their citizens(and whose citizens know what loss of privacy can lead to, due to being able to observe it happening in the neighbouring countries..).
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Thats all well and good, but calling it "one of the most successful investigations since Sept. 11, 2001" really cheapens what they have accomplished here, since the investigative bar was lowered so far pre-9/11.
So they are greatly sucessfull in relation to one of the most incredibly flawed and costly intelligence failures in recent times? Thats not saying too much IMHO
Sehr geehrter Toilettenbenutzer!
Swisscom is essential Vodafone Switzerland which is part of Vodafone Global one of the largest, if not the largest mobile network provider, in the world.
----
They also said they had strong indications that terror suspects, alert to the phones' vulnerability, had largely abandoned them for important communications and instead were using e-mail, Internet phone calls and hand-delivered messages.
Way to go, NYT; now they're gonna abandon email, Internet phone calls, and hand-delivered messages!
Don't tell anybody they sometimes talk to each other in person, they might be reading this.
like a noose gradually tightening our liberties are imperceptibly reduced until the ruling elite have us on a leash.
the only choice we have is whether the elite is right wing or left wing.
It is the inevitable consequence of power (power acretes power).
I could go on. But I won't.
SURELY NOT!!!!!
I would suspect that authorities can learn much about people and groups simply by mapping who talks with whom (using technques discussed hrer). Even if many of the subjects use anonymous SIM chips and phones, their patterns of calling create a map. And if anyone they call is a known party (e.g., know "terrorists" or their family members), then their anyonymity becomes compromised.
The authorities can probably even deduce leadership structures from the sequence of calls. If A calls B and then B immediately calls C, D, and E, we might suspect that B is a leader of a cell with D, E, and F as members. Add data on physical location (phone towers) and the authorities have even more data to map out a network and assess likely roles of unnamed people.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
Some of my favorite quotes:
From both the mental image and funny-long-names-of-stuff-in-Germany file:
- "If you beat terrorists over the head enough, they learn," said Col. Nick Pratt, a counterterrorism expert and professor at the George C. Marshall European Center for Security Studies in Garmisch-Partenkirchen, Germany.
And the enjoying-that-feeling-of-absolute-superiority-oveAnother official agreed: "They'd switch phones but use the same cards. The people were stupid enough to use the same cards all of the time. It was a very good thing for us."
And I'm sure this one has already been posted, but...
From both the kill-joy and tinfoil-hat/nuking-new-$20s files:
- "They thought these phones protected their anonymity, but they didn't," said a senior intelligence official based in Europe. Even without personal information, the authorities were able to conduct routine monitoring of phone conversations."
Sigh...This isn't new at all - we've heard about it a couple of years ago here in Switzerland. BTW, Swisscom happens to be the not-so-former telecom monopoly here, pretty big stuff, not just some random company exploiting a legal loophole. Thing is it's been possible to buy totally anonymous GSM cards here for ages (8 years or so), effectively providing you pre-paid phone number to use in any GSM phone, in and outside of Switzerland.
For about $50 you get a SIM card that you can put in you GSM mobile. You now have a phone number and some initial credit. You can buy credit (a card with a hidden number to dial) from any news stand anytime. Never in the process does your name appear anywhere. You can even buy the cards in supermarkets.
The question of such anonymity was raised several times, but ultimately the decision was that it wasn't possible to require personal information for such items. Since there's no contract and no bills in the system, there's no reason to ask for your name, address, etc. And there's millions of them in use already.
Note that all operators offer such cards. It's a bit more expensive than regular price plans but damn useful if you're a traveler, want to control expenses or can't get a regular plan because of bad credit. To my knowledge, many other european countries offer such prepaid cards now... We just happened to be the first.
-- It's always darker before it goes pitch black.
alert to the phones' vulnerability, had largely abandoned them for important communications and instead were using e-mail, Internet phone calls and hand-delivered messages
So now that technology has been shown succesfull in stopping "terrorists", and those "terrorists" have moved to email/VoIP, get ready for another push in legislature to regulate those mediums more tightly. It doesn't matter that the corporation put those chips in their products by their own will. Traditional phone companies will see a spot to shove their foot in the door and lobby their representatives to regulate the up and comming internet telephony industry in order to stiffle the competition. So there is "antiterrorism" working and corporate money working in the minds of the government. What else is new...
Is this kind of thing routine?
:)
Given the first +5 Informative FUD troll on this thread it's clear we're in full conspiracy theory mode, so let's trot out Echelon again.
It's theorized that there exists a gigantic electronic SIGINT monitoring network, known as Echelon, which is operated across the Sort Of Free World by the United States, the United Kingdom, and other allies. The system is supposed to be powerful enough to monitor every phonecall, every email, every satellite communication, and handle *all of it simultaneously*. Pattern matching and keyword analysis are done by computers in realtime. Echelon can also make toast, predict stock market trends, and runs it's own psychic hotline.
On a more serious note, how routine that kind of thing might be requires a more careful analysis of the laws of the United Kingdom, which are not the same as the laws of the United States. I don't know what the rules are over there governing the implicit privacy of information.
Of course, having the ability to do something and actually implementing it are two very different things.
The service providers had no need to track users locations beyond that necessary to establish service. It was government fiat that compelled them to install the systems necessary to harness this information, collate it, and make it available to government agents on demand.
Is this truly the only Earth I can live on?
Big deal...
This 'top secret tracking" is available to consumers and companies in the UK see:.
http://followus.co.uk
http://www.fleetonline.net
Of course you need the phone owners permission.
Or does the RFID chip already installed in my skull make that a grand waste of time?
The few meth addicts I have known use prepaid GSM cards for everything. I would say they are one rung below terrorists on the paranoia ladder and you cannot get them to talk on a landline or registered modile line.
Monitoring a single number is much easier.
Why don't they put a calling card on the market that allows to place very cheap calls to a specific country (let's say Pakistan).
That way it is easy to track even the use of every public phone booth.
Net sa best, mar it koe minder
When does the tipping of our security gathering techniques end?
I know that the terrorist may realize this but there are other dumb ass crminals who get ideas from this type of information.
Actually your wrong. There are different technologies for cell phone antenna's. The old ones simply relied on your cell phone saying "I am getting the best signal. Now they have "Directional Antenna Array's" (google search it), and basically it triangalets your exact location based on the signal from multiple sources, quite a bit different then "Which is the best signal". The good news: Cell phone reception went WAY up, the bad news, they can track where you are to within a few metres. Is this good or bad? Who cares, as /. pointed out already, they can track you with your cash, your cc's, your bank card, your car, etc. etc. etc..
Big Brother(x) = 1984 + 20 = 2004.
Mod +5 Drunk
If the argument is that they don't have your location down to a 10-meter square block, you might wanna guess again; by watching the way that your phone moves through the spheres of influence each tower generates it becomes mathematically trivial to triangulate your position with a precision that GPS would find envious.
That statment is vastly exaggerated. In fact triangulating the position based on signal strength gives vastly inaccurate results. Simply passing behind a wall would make you appear 20-100m further from the cell station, making triangulation hopeless at accuracy.
The most accurate method availible is called time advance. Basically the towers keep a very accurate record of your latency, and transmit their signal slightly in advance when you are far away to make sure it reaches you at the time your cellphone expects it. IIRC this value is measured in 1/10ths of a bit, and yeilds an accuracy of 500m. No methods of tracking cellphones are as good as the = 10m GPS provides.
The modded firmware of some phones can Jam and hop Ids randomly to leech airtime. This is a real problem in some countries with mature cell nets.
Node logs are not perfect.
As every drug dealer busted can tell you that buying your phones in bulk and dropping them (Or purposely losing them in a public place) every 24h removes the chance of getting a tap put on in time.
To live in Fear and Ignorance, only teaches one paranoia.
a lot of people are calling this an invasion of privacy. This is hardly that.
Al Qaedia and its operatives have been identified as enemy combatants. Effectively, there's already an international 'warrant for their arrest'.
This technology, if had to be used in the US, would require a judge to approve a warrant for this type of information gathering. There'd have to be specific evidence that the individual was commiting a crime or likely to. Al Qaedia already falls under this category, IMHO.
Even further, this was a COMBAT action. In other conflicts, (see: wars) this is the same as using radar to identify enemy positions based on the metal used in their vehicles, etc.
And EVEN FURTHER, knowing where you are is essential in a cellular phone network. To forward the voice packets, the phones have to know the signal strength from your phone to the nearest towers. it figures your motion and signal degradation to determine the most likely cells to send your data to. knowing your approximate location is just a function of cellular technology.
Reason, free market capitalism, and individualism
Doesn't it strike anyone as odd that the powers that be would release this much detail to one of the world's top newspapers? Even if the technique no longer works on Al Queda, surely there are lots of other folks who still have [misguided] faith in the security of cell phones. I smell disinformation here.
this is a nice example of the parallel existence of privacy and legitimate law enforcement. note that i say parallel, not tradeoff, the latter being the superficial way the alleged "tension" between the two is described. we can have both, and stronger than they are now.
... our methods seem gentle in comparison.)
i'd like to think i'm a decent pro-privacy civil libertarian, but i also admit getting a kick out of the law and order episodes when they so often trace someone's movements thanks to bridge tolls or telephone calls or ATM cameras or whatever. cool, hey presto and the bad guy is tagged. here, it's those bin laden cretins, no tears shed; and so it happens in real life). (the israelis once assassinated a man by detonating an explosive in his cellphone -- they waited to hear his voice and
now we have trackable cellphones (which are becoming ubiquitous), rfid chips, red-light cameras with OCR, etc. pretty easy and non-paranoid to imagine the automated abiity to track anyone anywhere.
there are so far as i know few constitutional problems if the data collected is publicly observable information, i.e., no expectation of privacy even if the sophistication of the technology to collect, process, and digest that information would astonish most of us (this does at least rule out Big Brother in your home). the old model was that evidence could be collected only with periodic intrusive methods like breaking down doors or inserting wiretaps, moderated by warrant and the exclusionary rule and so on. what no one expected, though, is the situation now where *unintrusive* methods continuously collect everything one might need. the fourth becomes an anachronism, and the patriot act seems quaint.
the only answer i see, or rather the inevitable path ahead, is to intelligently moderate access to and use of the data. the constitution is only the floor, congress went much farther with the anti-wiretap law. draw the "border" between leigt investigation and fishing expeditions. frankly i don't think we can do a good job of it, but it's the only route i see ahead. all these "public eyes" can not be shut, because we *like* too many of them and even a few innocuous steps may prove to open the door wide.
AT&T uses such patterns to look for deadbeats who sign up new calling plans to flee old debt.
Fortunately, as the White Spy, I had a trap set up to trigger on downdrafts and launch a big rock from a trebuchet which smashed the Black Spy helicopter!!
Seriously, I dont like PATRIOT and the other crap pushed on us by the paniced [SIC] public any more than anybody else, but saying the Navy shot down that plane is just ignorant.
Panicked public: People who actually live too far away from any primary terror target, but feel obligated to make up for the lack of panic expressed by those who do live close to a target and take the risk in stride.
Another fascinating installment on the BBC this morning about the bugging of the UN, which has been business as usual and diplomats go elsewhere to hold private or sensitive conversations. Spy vs. Spy all over again. Antonio Prohias, we miss you.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Bullshit.
I have had the 911 tracking save a frieds leg before. We were on a motorcycle trip and the bike burst into flames. It was abou t11pm and I had no idea where I was. I call 911 from my cell. I told them I didn't know where I was but my friend was burned really bad. They said not to worry an ambulance and fire truck was on the way and they could get a good idea of my location from my cell phone. I told them that when they got close we would be the two guys standing about 50 yards from the burnign motorcycle. We laughed, my friend go taway without skin grafts, and insurance paid for my motorcycle. Now, lets get rid of that because you think you are important enough for our goverment to track.
Agreed. The /. tagline says "interesting" but this is frightening as hell. The bottom line is that if you are an enemy of US and you talk on a cellphone anywhere in the world, you may well be screwed. Wow. What else are they listening for, I wonder?
Be happy. Nothing else matters.
http://clinton6.nara.gov/1997/03/1997-03-11-exec-o rder-on-naval-special-warfare-development-group.ht ml
For Immediate Release March 12, 1997
EXECUTIVE ORDER
EXCLUSION OF THE NAVAL SPECIAL WARFARE DEVELOPMENT GROUP
FROM THE FEDERAL LABOR-MANAGEMENT RELATIONS PROGRAM
By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, including section 7103(b)(1) of title 5 of the United States Code, and having determined that the Naval Special Warfare Development Group has as a primary function intelligence, counter-intelligence, investigative, or national security work and that the provisions of Chapter 71 of title 5 of the United States Code cannot be applied to this organization in a manner consistent with national security requirements and considerations, Executive Order 12171 of November 19, 1979, as amended, is further amended by adding the following at the end of section 1-205:
"(i) Naval Special Warfare Development Group."
WILLIAM J. CLINTON
THE WHITE HOUSE,
March 11, 1997.
Yep, there's the cover up. I think you should put the "blinders" back on.
French periodical Paris Match published the radar transcripts showing that there was something else in the air next to TWA 800 when it exploded.
And everyone knows how French periodicals are always allowed full access to FAA radar data.
One of the big problems after the war was that a lot of SS/Gestapo officers destroyed their records in an effort to claim that they'd served with other units, had had lower ranks, or hadn't even served (a similar thing that is being seen with senior Baathists in Iraq today). In the end, the prosecutors wound up proving the service histories of their suspects by finding that all of them had filled out their government pension paperwork when they'd joined their units or received promotions.
Again, it was simple greed (or stinginess) that led to their downfall.
"Prepare for the worst - hope for the best."
Has a story on this as well.
-EB
Do you ever walk alone like a drifter in the dark?
Let X be the US government, and Y be "the terrorists". Presently, group A are considered worthy of medication, while group B are laudable patriots. If we study most countries' histories, and generalise the term "terrorists", this still applies.
exactly. the 911 tracking bs was basically opening it to the emergency services (and other law enforcement). it also was to enable the reception of 911 calls from any phone waether or not it had an account on the network. i bought several of those phones just to keep in my cars in case of emergency. i havn't charged them in over 4 years but one of them just made a 911 call when i saw a car go across the medium strip and hit oncoming trafic.
i didn't read the article completly but they prolly paid for some of the recharge cards with a credit card that when the card was redeemd into the cell phone automatically asociated it with the person(s). there should still be ways to use them without being tracked by name. you just need to be more carefull in how you do it. on another note, it wouldn't surprise me if they were just monitoring all the phones like this looking for keywords and certain languages being spoken.
there has been programs in place for a while now that can and do listen for "keywords" then start recording and set an alrm off to the rite office. it wouldn't surprise me if a flag got posted about this replie if i started saying things like bomb and president, assasin and super tuesday gihad and fuck them all let god sort it out.
now whats that black helecopter doing down the street?
The NTSB Flight 800 Page seems to have the evidence contrary to your own beliefs, and if you are really nice, and try not to sound like you are a conspiracy theorist, they may let you see the evidence for yourself, under a press pass - or "I'm a collage student writing a paper on", etc. Of course, there have been plenty of (non-government employed) people whom have already seen it, and it's probably been warehoused, but no harm in trying. What I'm saying here, is if you show me proof, I'm on your side, until then - I'm letting you know what I'm basing my beliefs on.
Kindest regards.
You are being labelled as a flamer for implying that the Navy is the responsible for that crash. However, as one might notice, there are some really serious reasons to believe it really happened.
What is really amazing is that those exactly same people that ask you to take your medicine are also flaming the Patriot Act, which is the very follow-up for such behavior...
But everyone is free to keep blinders, indeed.
And, BTW, I wanted to thank you for your sig link, I've been enjoying it for months.
Keep going !
Regards,
jdif
Let's overcome our weakness.
Despite Swiss law about not buying SIM cards anonimously SIM cars still freely awailable for online shopper. But all this affair show that Al-Qaeda is not quite tech savvy. List of the phones on the paper ? Not encripted ? Well it's sound good :). They also didn't use smartphone with software voice scrambler, though scrambled talk also could rase suspicion. Don't know how many people scrambling them really. Not 100% sure but I think existing high-end smartphones powerful enough to produce unbreakable scrambling. Even they arn't encripted text messagess could be made practically unbreakable ...
It was the Stonecutters, aka the No Homers :)
If you want that service you could buy a GPS (they're not that expensive) and relay the information to the 911 operator.
There's no reason for it to be built in to *all* cell phones.
Surely you meant:
257 2332
I am NaN
Why do you think they call them "cell" phones?
I don't like the idea of being tracked either, but isn't it nice to know that such technology is helping against terrorism? I mean, does it make sense to refuse stuff like this and then blame the authorities for not being able to catch these criminals?
Just another point of view. I get the feeling that staying somewhere in the middle is the best choice.
Diego Rey
diegoT
Might there be a possibility that they were transmitting messages using frequency outside audible range during the silence phonecall.
Which they thought might not be easily traceable, but unknowingly make them more easily identifiable.
Hey, that's my password you are typing
d00d! It's Jennie's number!
The executive order referenced exempts a specific group in the Navy from federal labor law, adding them to a huge list of intelligence agencies that was instituted by Exexcutive Order in 1979 by President Ford, as provided for in Section 7103(b) of Title 5 of the United States Code. What the hell does that have to do with a coverup? Are you asserting that Clinton exempted that Group and then threatened to fire them all from the Navy if they tried to form a labor union, which somehow got them to be quiet about shooting down a plane?
No one's asking you to remove your tin foil hat, but please, if you're going to provide "evidence" of a coverup, at least make some sense. If the executive order had suspended some part of the uniform laws that prohibits shooting down civilian planes, you might have something.
Don't blame me; I'm never given mod points.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
You stupid. The radar report was leaked, this is why every periodical, even French, could have got it if quick enough.
Let's overcome our weakness.
The "labor policies" that were changed in that Executive Order concerned what is more popularly known as the whistleblower statutes. These were laws designed to protect government employees against recrimination for calling attention to misdeeds, incompetence, what have you.
That the President of the United States felt compelled to deny this very specific group of individuals protection under these statutes, the very day after evidence is produced implicating the Navy in this tragedy can be seen as nothing less than an attempt to cover-up the truth.
Unless, of course, you've got your blinders on.
As for the NTSB, that report is mostly crap. It doesn't talk about how NTSB agents appeared in front of a Senate subcommittee and testified against the FBI, accusing them of confiscating and deliberately destroying evidence, both felony activities.
I actually got to see those hearing live on C-SPAN. (But now that I think about it, it could have been unmarked black helicopters transmitting secret mind control signals that only my tin-foil hat was capable of receiving.)
If you want to learn the facts about TWA 800.
The lawsuit against NTSB over TWA 800.
Is this truly the only Earth I can live on?
e
i am seriously interested in modifying firmware. thanks.
Don't worry, the not-ready-to-be-unplugged set has seen my posts are moderated down into non-existance.
In answer to your question though, you might want to reference this post.
Is this truly the only Earth I can live on?
Remeber when phones had lines? Did anyone squack that it was a massive invasion of privacy that it was possible to trace the call or witness you standing there at the booth?
..and anyone who complains about "showing their papers" while travelling clearly hasn't done much of it anyway. If you can't rent a fscking Toyota without ID, why the hell do you think you should board a 747 without it?
Geezuz. It's not like the Swiss sat down in a room and said, hey, in 2002 it will be reaaly useful to the Americans if we do this. Now, in 2004, they're not going to sit down and say, "right, mission accomplished, shut it down."
Those who desire a total lack of accoutability must live with a total lack of trust.
BAH.
What I would be much more interested in would be - how many Americans of Arab decent happened to purchase the same phone? Just because an Arab decides to get a pre-paid phone with International capabilits - were they then automatically brought under suspicion. I'll put money on, yes. The sad part, and the reason the story is interesting to me, is the injustice caused by this sort of "investigative style".
What's to stop this conversation: We found that most terrorists choose to wear light colored cotton clothing, and they look like they are of Arab decent. Create a file for anybody you find that matches this profile. Look into their background. If they sell expensive rugs, this could be a front, investigate where they buy their rugs from.
it's possible, but over the kinds of distances i assume they were transmitting across, i think they'd have to use a pretty easily traceable infrastructure. (i.e, the cell tower's IM capabilities)
-ninjaneer
What, exactly, in those links are the "serious reasons"?
Many people have implied that a US Navy cruiser fired the missle. Having spent many years in the Navy I can say that this is extremely unlikley. Why? Because someone would have said something by now.
A most of the crew on any ship is a bunch of young kids. A lot of them felt cheated by their recruiter and are not happy about their life of painting the ship and cleaning toilets. They'd sell out the story in a second. A missile launch from a ship is not a subtle thing. It burns the whole deck. Everyone on board knows a missile was launched.
Some have suggested a shoulder launched surface-to-air missile was fired from the area. I'll concede that this is certainly possible. A small group an keep quiet. It would explain the eyewitness accounts. My problem with this theory is that there is nothing else to support it.
Who did the firing? A terrorist group? Why didn't they claim responsibility? The US Government? To what end? The Patriot Act didn't come around for another five years and was a result of 9/11, not Flight 800.
you know, it is a _service_ when used properly.
I remember first seeing some test of it back in 1997 or 96, you'd send an sms and receive cordinates back.
limiting access to it is govermental regulatory problem! not a technical one(actually most problems people cry wolf on slashdot are regulatory, and following that regulation and having the goverment that is for the people problem rather than tehcnical problems.. a goverment that is out to get at it's citizens doesn't really need _any_ technical stuff except spears).
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
terror suspects, alert to the phones' vulnerability, had largely abandoned them for important communications and instead were using e-mail, Internet phone calls and hand-delivered messages.
Hmmmm... looks like they (both 'they's) are moving on to VOIP. Is this going to impact it in any way that I would notice (or, rather, would want to notice?)
One man's -1 Flamebait is another man's +5 Funny.
I find it intersting that this story has been published at all. And with such a wide varity of direct quotes. They basically tell any would-be naughty person using a mobile phone to change the SIM card and the phone everytime they make a phone call.
I'm reminded of a satelite photo from the mid '80s the showed a radar picture of the Nile Delta. Why would you publicly show a picture that told everyone that you could see 30 metres underground durring the Cold War?
Just what can 'they' really monitor if 'they' know that you know that your moble phone is monitored?
Thank you.
Is this truly the only Earth I can live on?
All hail the overlord!
/^[A-Z0-9._%+-]+@[A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}$/i
Ever wonder why Osama bin Laden can't be found?
To find out, listen to The World's Most Dangerous Leader
Regards,
Kilgore
What's interesting is that the government will track civilians with this technology, protecting its invasion of your privacy with the fear of terrorism that is now its lifeblood. While letting bin Laden go free! Of course, if they had targeted bin Laden's phone with a missile, they'd have no fear to work with right now. And firing missiles at bin Laden is "wagging the dog", just a ploy to distract us from a blowjob!
--
make install -not war
And if you really wanted to communicate with people on the road you could purchase a CB or portable shortwave set.
Get real.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Doesn't this strike you as one of those things that maybe the government should not be advertising to the world? Let the idiots keep falling victim to the same blunder but who knows maybe it's just me :P
Problem solved.
But there's no reason the service can't be provided via GPS, and on a voluntary basis.
Is this truly the only Earth I can live on?
Someone has been reading Savage Love!
Because we all know only people who buy the GPS service would ever need it.
They listen to EVERYTHING, of course. What the hell do you think they have been spending all that money on for the last 50 years? Tanks?
You should do a little research into all the KNOWN satellite launches since the start of the space age, even with the ones we know about, military launches outnumber the civilian by an incredible margin.
Personally, I'm happy to believe that the western intelligence organisations do as much as they are technically able to and pay no heed to moral or legal objections, to do any less would be pretty irresponsible.
That was classic intercourse!
I have no doubt that cell phones are used for tracking. Why bother with GPS on the vehicle.
How widespread is the ability to turn on the cellphone mics and monitor conversations (you know, like the Mercedes incident), even when the phone is not being used? How about when the phone appears to be turned off?
I do not know if those capabilities exist, but I would certainly be trying to obtain them if I were in charge of developing intercept/tracking tech.
On the second link provided, there are serious evidence of odd behavior from the Navy. Just looking for the black boxes 20 miles away from the crash when it was found just under their main boat, at the very crash site. Just denying that three submareines were cruising at that time.
The government just made its best to hide the fact that a missile hit the plane (which would have been strange if made by a terrorist group, since at that time already, terrorism would have been a quite good excuse) : just suing a third party that made some impartial test (remember the red glue on the seats ?) of having stolen pieces of the plane.
As you rightly put it, Navy is full of young kids, who can be easily made quite confident that nothing happened, that this missile was launched but that nothing wrong happened to it. They may have known that a missile had been launched, how would they know that it hit the plane ? No clue for them, it's just a question of persuasion.
And please, RTFP. I didn't say the Patriot Act came around after TWA 800, I said that Patriot Act came around for defending the exact same principle, State security over the truth.
And I'm not saying it happened that way, I'm saying there is strong reasons to believe so.
As previously said, you have the right to think whatever you want. But please make your common sense work. At least, something really strange took place, and some people had interest not to uncover it.
Regards,
jdif
Let's overcome our weakness.
Sometimes the loonies get a few things correct. Congress did pass "terrorism" legislation after the flight went down. It was not revoked after it was shown that no terrorism was involved.
Because we all know that the government should become a nanny state and take care of everyone who, for some reason, refuses to take care of themselves.
Right.
Special Delivery for Al-Qeada...
are called by your known terrorist friend
call your known terrorist friend
known terrorist writes down your tel. number
In addition you may become suspect if you use a card marketed for swiss teenagers exclusively in rather unsafe parts of the world. You should also avoid using it too much near the place you live.
But if you treat it as a "disposable card for making that single important call" it should work quite well.
And I am not suprized they did not change cards. Card==tel number at which you are reachable.
BTW. I have bought mine at the flea market in Basel.
--
Tomek
Help me out here. I was under the impression that the Swiss, as a policy, prefer not to get involved in such things as assisting in tracking wanted people and surrendering information to governmental and law enforcement bodies and the like. I imagine that this is s major reason that a Swiss company was appealing to terrorist cell-users. Is this no longer the Swiss outlook? Have I been misled in this arena? Does someone who is Swiss have some input on this?
I have a question about that NYT article. In the old cell phones there was a phone ESN and then the subscriber info entered in the NAM. So it was always possible to track a phone no matter what user had it. Now we have these GSM phones with SIM cards and the NYT article is a bit vague but seems to imply that the SIM card was the tracking mechanism and not the phone hardware. My question is, is there an embedded phone ESN in the GSM phone, or is the subscriber info entirely in the SIM card?
OMG! Teh MaTrIx has j00!
Don't worry, it's not like anyone took you seriously before you referenced a crappy movie.
except u cant hang them on top of the barn door once u 'daisy cutted' them
Remember: Today's radicals are tomorow's conservatives.
Read the "Facts about TWA 800" and found just ignorant speculation.
Unique to this crash was the intense participation of the Navy, which immediately dispatched its best deep salvage vessels to the area, and kicked out the New York Police Department divers, who had legal jurisdiction in the area.
Who's better equiped to pull up large debris from the ocean floor? The NYPD, or the Navy?
Most unusually, the Navy searched out 20 miles to either side of the known debris field, even though the 747 could not have glided that distance from its altitude of 13,700 MSL even if left intact.
This is probably the most ignorant thing of what I've read so far. Read this again and see if this is some how conspiratorial. A 747 could easily glide 20 miles if it's engines went out at 13,700 feet. Whoever wrote this must be under the impression that if a plane's engines go out the plane just drops like a rock.
The Navy justified this extensive search by claiming that they could not locate the aircraft flight recorders, the "black boxes", even though numerous private boat owners reported hearing the locator pings on their sonar and fish finders
Great! Because we all know how easy it is to find something on the ocean floor. It's one thing to pick up a "ping" it's another thing to actually find something the size of a toolbox.
And really... linking to a conspiracy website to support your views adds tons of credibility.
That's not how Directional Antenna Arrays work at all. They work based on the phase differences of the signal between multiple antennas.
The signal from your phone starts out in phase. As the signal propogates towards the multiple antennas, it takes a slightly different path to each antenna, ending up out of phase.
These phase shifts are measured and the return signals are transmitted from the same multiple antennas using exactly the same phase shifts.
The signal then returns to you following the same paths as your outgoing signal (in reverse) and converge on your phone in phase again.
Note that the cell does not track your location, it merely tracks the phase shifting of your signals. This would only provide accurate location data in a featureless landscape. In a city (or even suburb), the path between you and the cell might involve multiple bounces off of buildings, etc.
...is our privacy restored by removing the ability to track users' cell phones? Of course not.
Location information is generated automatically by the GSM network. Depending on the layout of the GSM net you can determine in which GSM cell the user is and even (roughly) determine his location within the cell. The location info is required for the network to operate properly. All this article has really accomplished is that Al Quaeda is, as this is written, instructing its operatives to ditch their anonymous simms after a certain short period for new ones to make tracking more difficult or to abandon GSM phones alltogether. It would have been nice if more of those terrorist [EXPLETIVE DELETED] had fallen for this before it was advertised by the press. Loose lips sink ships, or burn skyscrapers in this case.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
-GPS doesn't work without a clear view of the sky.
-911 location reporting is mandated for land lines. Why should wireless providers be exempted?
-Tracking, even anonymous tracking, is valuable for QOS purposes. It allows providers to find "dead spots" in their coverage. Seems like a good enough reason on its own, there.
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
The New York Times reports that Al Qaeda operatives were tracked using the ID of the GSM phone chips sold by a Swiss company named Swisscom
I would have been more impressed if they had dropped a bomb on these guys using the same signals
an ill wind that blows no good
By *whom*? The Northern Alliance, sure, but who else? Unless you mean America, who's law and declarations of war don't apply to the rest of the world.
Okay, but where's your evidence that the person is a member of AQ in the first place? Or that he specifically aims to commit a crime? Unless, of course, you can prove that he is a combatant, in which case I guess you're allowed to shoot him, forget violate his privacy.
While I fully support this sort of action against terrorists, I just hope that everybody realises that we are looking at a privacy invasion against non-combatant, possibly law abiding citizens here - but perhaps it is a necessary invasion.
and if you care about the government coming to get you, stop using a cell phone. I hear the unibomber's shack is available for long term lease.
The bottom line is that if you are an enemy of US and you talk on a cellphone anywhere in the world, you may well be screwed. Wow. What else are they listening for, I wonder?
SCO IP violations!!!! (so now you know where the 86 million $ went ...)
from the article:
"The call was placed on April 11, 2002, by Christian Ganczarski, a 36-year-old Polish-born German Muslim [...]"
There are two possibilities,
1. Navy ships running NT.
2. Patriot missiles; they have brought down our own planes before.
For all those tin-foil hat wearers, there have been available (since early 2001) WAAS signals which provide correction information re: GPS in North America that can give accuracy as close as 3M. In fact, my Garmin Rino 120 regularly reports it's calculated accuracy level to be 7ft when I have a good view of the southern horizon. That's enough to hit you with a car. By 2005, cell providers in the US must be able to triangulate the position of cell phones to within 100ft (a far cry from 500M). In some E911 compliant areas this can already be done. They know where you are. Now, the question is - do they care?
Full-Featured GPL Web Hosting Control Panel
First, GPS only works with a clear view of the sky. Radiolocation works better in urban areas. Second, emergency services and QOS data are reasons enough to justify the system, and they're hardly nefarious in nature. The fact that tracking can be used against us now is an unfortunate additional effect. This is the way it is nowadays. You can't just move out west and change your name to re-acquire anonymity like you could 150 years ago. Welcome to the future.
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
It is indeed ridiculous to even think the Navy could ever shoot down a civilian airliner.
Geez, camera phones, games, bluetooth, and now TRACKING DEVICES?
:P
I just want call quality & reception to improve. Tracking devices are useless when the phone can barely make calls and the user smashes it on the sidewalk.
you wont be saying that if you were shot on the street (where you are lost) and had a cell phone
Hmmm. I recommend you stay away from the video clip of the WTC owner talking about 'bringing down' Building #7. No, stuff like that is merely delusional. Move along, citizen....
I did. google said:
Did you mean: "Directional Antenna Arrays"
No standard web pages containing all your search terms were found.
Your search - "Directional Antenna Array's" - did not match any documents.
No electrons were harmed creating this post, though some may have been subjected to electrical and/or magnetic fields.
> I mean, does it make sense to refuse stuff like this and then blame the authorities for not being able to catch these criminals?
;)
If you are willing to give up freedom for security you deserve neither
And, it turns out, a single individual purchased a ton of SIM cards in bulk. There wasn't any injustice. Rational people would call your post a knee-jerk reaction. I just call it stupid.
As you rightly put it, Navy is full of young kids, who can be easily made quite confident that nothing happened, that this missile was launched but that nothing wrong happened to it. They may have known that a missile had been launched, how would they know that it hit the plane ? No clue for them, it's just a question of persuasion.
Oh please.
"Wow...did you hear about that plane crash last night?"
"Yeah. Bad news, huh."
"Hey, Ralph. What time did we launch that missile last night??
"8:42"
"And what time did that plane crash?"
"8:43"
"And weren't we in the same area?"
"Yeah. So?"
"Nothin' Just wondering. C'mon...let's finish playing cards."
P.S. The Navy is also full of old crusty NCO's, who can actually figure out 2 + 2.
tech support recited the details of my phone that was brought into the network, e.g. they associated their SIM (rented by me) and the phone I bought off the web. she also told me which phones I'd used with the SIM in the past 2 years.
Don't be such a tool. Your attempt at being pedantic is shameless. Just remove the inappropriate apostrophe and search again. Assclown.
"I planned within my means and got a fixed rate mortgage, so where's MY bailout?" -cafepress
The loss of privacy in closed systems is very real. Most printers can be uniquely identified by certain features (invisible to the naked eye) that are created on the printouts. And I am not talking about the currency counterfeiting options. We can be sure that if email was implemented using appliances, every mail message would have a unique ID. Microsoft Office embedded a unique ID in every document it produced and that feature was only disabled due to a huge outcry by their customers. Has everyone forgotten the original P4 ID, and how it was to be used for tracking (called "authentication")? The only way to guarantee privacy is to have open systems which will ensure that a universal tracking system cannot be successfully implemented.
If I remember my time in the telecom industry correctly, phones only record and transmit a limited frequency range. The phone tops out at 8kHz. 16 bit samples at 8kHz gives you your 64kb bandwith of the PSTN.
Jack Valenti and Orrin Hatch will be first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
Sheesh. Another troll gets by the moderators. Nice job, asshats.
> Actually your wrong. Actually, you're wrong. Next on Slashdot: Geeks Learn to Spel
Jason Wohlford
Well, at least when they take us to trial we'll be able to appeal the conviction based on the fact that the gold-fringed American flag represents an Admiralty Court, but, as civilians, we're not subject to Admiralty law.
-h-
Since it's the SIM card that identifies the (GSM) phone, changing the handset but putting the old SIM card in is a pretty stupid thing to do if you don't want to be tracked. What the terrorist should have done was the reverse: change the SIM card, but use the same phone.
Well, probably. Some GSM expert will probably now correct me saying that the phone can also be identified independently of the SIM card!
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
> Actually your wrong
Actually, you're wrong.
Next on Slashdot: Geeks Learn to Spel
Jason Wohlford
I'm sure that the investigators who uncovered this mistake by Al Queda spent a lot of time bashing their heads on their desks as they ran into dead ends. Like most police work, this "lucky break" probably only came to light after a lot of fruitless efforts. These investigators made their luck out of a lot of legwork and late nights.
We like to pretend that Al Queda is inept because it helps us sleep better at night. That fact is that in this case the good guys were simply better (and more persistent) at uncovering tracks than Al Queda was at concealing them.
"Prepare for the worst - hope for the best."
err... yes, there is. If they are only an option, then people won't buy it as most will see it as an option they don't need. If 911 can't find you, they spend more time looking, which costs taxpayer money. You injuries are probably more severe, which cost more in not only money (mostly to insurance companies who in turn pass it back to me), but time at the hospital. Time that could be spent on me.
If EMTs and police can't find you for a half an hour, that's taxing the system. If doctors spend an extra hour on your, that's taxing the system. Your telling me, I, as a taxpayer should pay for your privacy? If you want privacy, don't use a cell phone. If there are critical systems dependent (fire,police,med) on a private network, the government has every right to mandate how it's used. Or alternatively say that anybody who doesn't have GPS on their phone can't use/call emergency systems. And since that would never happen we are back at the first point.
Why, o why must the sky fall when I've learned to fly?
I just bought a prepaid SIM card for 5 euro. It has a prepaid credit of 5 euro when I choose to register I get an additional prepaid credit of 10 euro.
The mobile carriers also have the abillity to track you with the unique IMEI number of your GSM. With Software it is possible to change the IMEI of your GSM. A new SIM and an IMEI change means you are anonymous again.
Dutch police routinely asks the Mobile Carriers for subscriber data from customers who where in the same area where a crime has been committed.
An old crusty NCO has a 35 point IQ advantage over the typical slashbot.
Actually your redundant.
Next on slashdot: Geeks learn how to not make multiple posts..
Mod +5 Drunk
Most phone systems don't support the transmission of sounds outside a human's hearing range because then why would you do it via phone?
The phone company used to send signals this way (In-Channel Signalling, IIRC) which is the source of the 2600 Hz. They now use Out of Channel Signalling just about everywhere in the industrialized world.
Ps - The spelling was perfect, those are grammatical error's you clod. Way to try and look smart and end up looking like a _DUMB_ douche bag.
Mod +5 Drunk
Disregarding the rest of the bollox you are talking as it has been correctly modded as flammable, I would just like to ask for a link or something so that I can see a radar transcript
Coz nuh uh, I don't think so. But i could be wrong, and it might be beautiful to see that array of analogue data transcribed to what i assume was French. Of course, it wouldn't read so good in any other language - we are, after all, talking about the language of love.
Oh, so it isn't "triangulate"? Silly me.. How informative!
That's a really good troll or you are just that stupid. I don't know why I'm feeding you when everybody else has but here goes (noone else has raised this point yet -- which surprises me):
I served in the military. I have many friends who still serve in various branches. Most people in the military are there because they love their country and want to defend it.
Now use some common sense. There are 300-400 crewmembers onboard any US Naval vessel with the capability of shooting down aircraft. They all would have known about the missile launch (have you ever been onboard a warship during a live fire exercise? It's kind of hard to keep it a secret) and many of them would have known about the impact (from various radar/sensor screens). Keeping in mind that this was an American airliner and they just killed hundreds of American citizens do you really think that you could get every single crewmember to keep quiet about it? It would have leaked to the press the minute that ship docked.
Put your tinfoil hat away. While I dislike many of the things that our Government does there's simply no way in hell that you would get several hundred members of our armed forces to cover-up the murder of several hundred American citizens.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
oh and when you bring over the T-shirts, don't forget the bullets."
My alibi would be "Yes. We were talking about vintage t-shirts for the Washington Bullets basketball team."
*cough* okay you got me. Your such an intellect!
FYI- People like you ruin a good discussion. What does me spelling TRIANGULATE wrong have to do with this discussion?
Mod +5 Drunk
there is no more telecom monopoly here since 7 or 8 years...
Thing is it's been possible to buy totally anonymous GSM cards here for ages (8 years or so)
that's no more the case since years (but I can't say since when exactly, not so long, maybe 3 years ago).
Note that other countries offer pre-paid cards, the only difference is that you have to send an anonymous people bought it for you :)
If the summary you provide is assumed, then SPAM may be benefitial (to those who dislike monitoring) in that it significantly reduces the signal-to-noise ratio, thereby making it harder to monitor the desired network traffic.
:)
So SPAM away, all you conspiracy junkies - for the good of the Internet!
This is not my sig.
actually the service itself is built in to normal gsm(as a sideproduct!) and in such much cheaper than putting a gps chip in every phone.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
now heres a thought, inseted of using a GSM card repidialy buy a whole lot of them and use them as one-use units, if your just using them to signal attacks anyway... and talk on the damn things, what you say wouldnt be improtant if the signal is the the key.
just the stuff everyone sould see,
Oninoshiko
Err, who said anything about freedom? Being tracked because of my cell phone is maybe going to break into my privacy but it's not going to make me less free.
Do you think address books make you less free because people knows where you live?
Don't get me wrong: I wasn't saying that I want everyone to know where I am, but I think that there's a point in the middle. All extremisms are bad IMHO.
Diego Rey
diegoT
I think that a shoulder launched missile is unlikely since the plane was at 13,000-14,000 ft. I think most shoulder launched missiles have an effective range of 2-3 miles which would put the plane outside the range of the missile or at best at the outer limits of it's range.
"When you sit with a nice girl for two hours, it seems like two minutes. When you sit on a hot stove for two minutes, it
It's been linked to in this thread like three times now.
"run had risen" i didn't know run had even died. good to know he's risen though. i just hope jammaster jay rises too!
Fuck off you worthless poltroon! The South has been the bane of my existence my whole life. Everything that the north does right, the south wants to see taken down. It doesn't matter if those damn hill jumpers are going to suffer for it, they still want whatever is directly opposite of the north! I hate the south! I hate the hillbillies from the south who use their numbers to inflict their backwards views on the rest of the civilized nation. I think it would be better if us northerners and coasties (both east and west) just seceded from the union and became our own country surrounding the idiots in the central and southern parts of the country. Then we could use our combined brain power to destroy what's left of old outdated attitudes about blacks and other non-whites. The south needs to die and die now!!! Nothing good ever comes from the south. And their backwaters idiot compadres in the central states always go to the polls and basically say, "Uhhh.. yeah... what he said!" while pointing to their southern masters. WAKE THE FUCK UP PEOPLE!!!
1. The Christian Religion is a joke these days. It's only around to make other people money and has nothing to do with being moral, just or helping other people.
2. Blacks, jewish people, hispanics, arab, etc... They are no different from white people. The time for the kind of racism that the south espouses has come to an end... FIFTY YEARS AGO!!! Kill anyone who has racist thought these days. An NO, it's not racist to have something against white people since they are not a minority. It's bigotry maybe, but not racism. So cut it out with the "reverse racism" crap already.
3. Our country is falling apart, not because of failing businesses or "big government". It's falling apart for two reasons. The first is that we pay little heed to education in this country. People are encouraged to be stupid and take pride in their ignorance. The second is that governmetn and business are both being ruined by cunning, but criminal individuals. George W. Bush and his cabal are a perfect example.
Just fucking wake up you morons!!!!!!! I would love to slap the taste out of anyone's mouth who doesn't get this stuff. It's right fucking in front of you you fucking worthless asshat!!! It's as obvious as it is that Darl McBride is a liar and a criminal. It's as obvious as the fact that the Bush administration lied about not knowing about 9/11 ahead of time. It's as obvious as the fact that Bush lied to get into Iraq to protect that precious oil and therefor his money and the money of his cronies. It's as obvious as the fact that Bush lied about his service in the military, his drug use, his alcoholism, his philandering. It's all right out in the open!!! I'm telling you to look at the emperor and see that HE HAS NO CLOTHES!!!!!
Good god people! Wake the FUCK up!!!!
Radiolocation is less important in urban areas though. And no, emergency services do not justify the system, since the functionality is otherwise available without intruding on our privacy.
Yeah because if I was onboard an Aegis warship engaged in a live fire exercise (and what else would it be? Do you think they just fire missiles because they feel like it?) and the next day heard the news on CNN about TWA 800 I wouldn't put two and two together.
Not to mention the radar technicians who would have seen the missile hit the target on their radar and the lookouts who would have seen the explosion (it was evening hours IIRC).
Give it up. There's no way in hell that a US warship accidentally shoots down a American airliner and it remains a secret.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Maybe you might consider your own private navy so you can shoot down any comments that pass way over your head?
That's rediculous. You're suggesting that the government should mandate GPS in cell phones because people can't be bothered to know where they are, and don't take the precautions to make that information available to them (information that is provided for *free* mind you, the signals are there, they just need a receiver), all for the incredibly few rare times they might call 911.
You're suggesting that I, as a taxpayer, should pay more for emergency services to have GPS systems and mapping software (along with all the updates).
It's a nanny state measure, and those of us capable of taking care of ourselves should not have to pick up the slack for those who simply refuse to.
To your links, I should like to see something better. So, I dilligently did a search, and maybe government sources aren't your friend. So I figure maybe one conspiracy site deserves another.
Between these two non-government entities, both having belief in the conspiracy view - the divergence of facts is too great for me to fathom. I am left somewhere in the middle, believing myself that the NTSB probably found the culprit. If there were a cover-up, it would seem that they would have been given impirical evidence (planted by the appropriate agency) to clearly show exactly what it was supposed to be. The NTSB official report was not conclusive. Although Section 1.12.7 of the official NTSB report is very good reading. I expect more than this out of a cover-up conspiracy.
Basically, because the NTSB report is not conculsive, there is no convincing you that your position is wrong, and there is no convincing me that it was definately a cover-up.
Nazi, get this through your head. I want my cell phone to communicate with, not for the Gestapo to always know where I am.
So if I don't pay several hundred dollars for a GPS receiver on the odd chance that I might be injured and not know where I am I'm not taking care of myself? What if I'm too injured to tell them where I am and all I can do before passing out is dial 911 on my cell? Ever think about that?
Using your logic we can conclude that the whole 911 system (landlines and cell phones) only exists because of the nanny state. After all if you can't memorize a seven digit emergency number for every location that you happen to go to then you are not taking care of yourself.
Stupid asshole.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
And now that the terrorists have moved on to other techniques, is our privacy restored by removing the ability to track users' cell phones?
You also have the "who watches the watchers" problem as a fundermental problem. With the position of "watcher" being highly attractive to criminal types.
So when some of us, after plenty of good reason, don't trust our government, we're made fun of and told to put on our tin-foil hats. But when Al Qaeda is beaten even after taking precautions of using phone "chips" that they bought anonymously, we laugh at them for not being cautious enough.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
i didn't read the article completly but they prolly paid for some of the recharge cards with a credit card that when the card was redeemd into the cell phone automatically asociated it with the person(s). there should still be ways to use them without being tracked by name. you just need to be more carefull in how you do it. on another note, it wouldn't surprise me if they were just monitoring all the phones like this looking for keywords and certain languages being spoken.
/t
GSM phones (the standard outside the US) have a unique hardware identifier (the IMEI or "International Mobile Equipment Identifier"). This number is most probably recorded by the network along with the phone number. Once you have number X (the calling number off pay as you go card), you can probably ask for any other calls made with that IMEI. If the terrs were sloppy: ie they used the same phone with several SIM chips (which hold your account info) and at least one of those chips was from a "normal" ie "nominative" account...
dear black helicopter people: i'm smoking a cigarette, i'll be right back. thanks for waiting.
#!/usr/bin/english
God bless them -- The 'Nice Germans'... da!
Yes, it's a knee jerk reaction, but it's one that is indeed based on the article. I couldn't find the text in the article that says that the US wouldn't do this. After all, I was writing in the hypothetical.
"You're suggesting that I, as a taxpayer, should pay more for emergency services to have GPS systems and mapping software (along with all the updates)."
I am the original AC who had the motorcycle accident. What you state above is exactly what I am saying. Do you know what an emergency even is? Have you ever seen one of your friends in a huge amount of pain or about to die? This countries (US) emergency response system is designed for quick response and hysterical callers. Imagine the 8-year-old who is in a car accident with mom. Are they expected to own a GPS, know how to use it, and call 911 with a calm tone explaining their coordinates to the dispatcher as their mother bleeds to death next to them? Give me a break. Technology is great for the small percent of the population that own it and understands how to use it. Fortunately our political body caters to the majority and tries to enable things like emergency response systems to be available to all, not the elite few who have a GPS they carry at all times just in case a car jumps the curb and they need to call 911.
I guess it bold down to choosing other peoples right to receive prompt, accurate, emergency response as opposed to your right to not have the government have the ability to track you. You also seem to think an awful lot of yourself if you think the government would even bother to keep tabs on you. Can you say bill of right, illegal search and seizure, and inadmissible evidence. Unless you are a true terrorist then you should not be too scared, and if you are a true terrorist then I hope you are caught, tortured, and killed slowly.
Theorized? No, fact. Echelon is 100% real. Here's the EU report on the subject. Published 7th Sept, 2001; kinda bad timing for any news story.
Typical yankee ranting... ignorant, profanity-laden, jumping from one topic to the next like a schizophrenic. The irony is that you basically hate "southerners" for thinking differently than you do, the very thing you accuse them of. You are clearly a very high-strung person with very little going on in his life. I suggest that you see a psychiatrist, get some happy pills, and get a life.
"So if I don't pay several hundred dollars for a GPS receiver on the odd chance that I might be injured and not know where I am I'm not taking care of myself?"
Chances are you're already spending more than that for the phone itself, so it should be well within your means. Btw, you can get GPS receivers for ~$100 now - dirt cheap if you *really* think that having that information available will save your life.
"What if I'm too injured to tell them where I am and all I can do before passing out is dial 911 on my cell? Ever think about that?"
If you're that bad off calling 911 will not necessarily lengthen your life. Besides, we're talking about something that most people would never have happen in their entire lives - being hurt so bad they can only hit 4 buttons on their phone.
"After all if you can't memorize a seven digit emergency number for every location that you happen to go to then you are not taking care of yourself."
Actually, yes. In fact, every cell phone I've ever owned has had the ability to store numbers in an index. You can store your local emergency numbers in a specific memory slot, so you don't have to remember the full number off the top of your head. If you go on a trip, you can look up these numbers ahead of time and preprogram them in to your phone. This isn't rocket science here - and it used to be a common practice!
I mean, let's say you have a kid - chances are you've got your pediatrician's number on a postit note near your landline, or in your cell phone directory already (that is, if you're worried about the kid that much) - what's the difference here?
Did it dawn on you that perhaps the Navy denied the existence of those submarines for security reasons? In any case it's a moot point -- Subs don't carry any sort of anti-aircraft weaponry whatsoever. Those "vertical launch tubes" that are referred to like it's some sort of damning piece of evidence are for Tomahawk cruise missiles.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Some people carry cell phones with the express idea (at least on the onset) that they'll use it in an emergency. Why couldn't they also carry a GPS as well, if they think it would be useful in an emergency?
Besides, when have I ever said I was concerned over the government tracking me specifically? I'm concerned over the government spending extra money, funneling money into more corporations, increasing my taxes, to take care of people who won't take the extra, incredibly minor step, of knowing where they are.
The "unless you have something to hide" argument is old and should be dropped entirely. Not everyone subscribes to the "spend lots of money tracking everyone just in case something bad might happen" philosophy.
This is corebreech. Just wanted to let you know, they yanked my karma. Went from excellent to terrible in just under two hours. Can't post anonymously unless I log out (this post is the first test of that), otherwise, the site says I can only post twice a day.
Pretty amazing, huh?
I'm glad that you take it upon yourself to decide what is and what is not within my means.
If you're that bad off calling 911 will not necessarily lengthen your life. Besides, we're talking about something that most people would never have happen in their entire lives - being hurt so bad they can only hit 4 buttons on their phone.
I'm also glad that you take it upon yourself to decide that if I'm that badly injured then I probably can't be saved and there's no point in wasting emergency services on me.
What about some other scenarios for your consumption then? What about the lady that was kidnapped and placed into the trunk of a car which then drove off? They were able to locate her using her cell phone. What about the guy hiding under a bed in his house while it's being robbed? What if he can't speak for fear of being discovered? What if I take a wrong-turn because somebody gave me bad directions and a deer run's out in front of me and totals my car? Now I'm stranded (if not injured) and have no idea where I am.
Actually, yes. In fact, every cell phone I've ever owned has had the ability to store numbers in an index. You can store your local emergency numbers in a specific memory slot, so you don't have to remember the full number off the top of your head. If you go on a trip, you can look up these numbers ahead of time and preprogram them in to your phone. This isn't rocket science here - and it used to be a common practice!
So if I take a roadtrip to say North Carolina (I live in New York) I should look up the local emergency numbers for every town and village along the way? Are you really arguing against the entire 911 system? Calling the 911 system part of the nanny-state is completely asinine. It's probably unlikely that you'll ever need a GPS enabled cell phone or the E-911 network. But if the situation ever arises where you do need it then you'll be thankful it's there.
BTW: If your so worried about being tracked by your cell phone I have a very simple solution for you: Turn it off and take the battery out of it!
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
You are being labelled as a flamer for implying that the Navy is the responsible for that crash. However, as one might notice, there are some really serious reasons to believe it really happened.
The problem with the official version of happenings for TWA800 is that it requires suspending the laws of physics. With a scale model 747, having the nose come off results in the plane pitching to vertical and falling tail first in a few seconds. A real aircraft would most likely end up in pieces before reaching vertical. Things get even worst when the initial explosion is ment to have taken place within the "wing box", where the structural members are under tension in flight. Break these and the plane will pitch down with both wings attempting to wrap around the fuselage.
Yet the NTSB report claims that the explosion blew off the nose with the rest of the plane subsequently climbing. Without a nose a plane will pitch up far too violently to climb, even if every control surface were to magically attempt to pich the plane downwards.
What is really amazing is that those exactly same people that ask you to take your medicine are also flaming the Patriot Act, which is the very follow-up for such behavior...
Even more directly it is the result of the events in September 2001. Where just about any explanation, including that which the US Government has pushed, is a "Conspiracy Theory".
"Some people carry cell phones with the express idea (at least on the onset) that they'll use it in an emergency. Why couldn't they also carry a GPS as well, if they think it would be useful in an emergency?"
I think with how prolific cell phone have become this assumption is not only invalid but ludicrous. Think of how many teens have cell phones. It is about planning for the worst possible case not for the few technological adept people in this country. I carry a cell phone because I have no need for a landline. I want to be able to call 911 with the ONLY phone I use and have them find me when I can't find myself.
"Besides, when have I ever said I was concerned over the government tracking me specifically? I'm concerned over the government spending extra money, funneling money into more corporations, increasing my taxes, to take care of people who won't take the extra, incredibly minor step, of knowing where they are."
Increasing your taxes, give me a break. How about the billions that are being spent in the middle east to fund an unjust war, the money that is being funneled to corporations to fund private enterprise in the name of public research, the money spent on a war on drugs that will never be over and never be won? If you are truly only concerned about your taxes there are better places to focus your energy then 911 GPS location measures in cell phone.
"The "unless you have something to hide" argument is old and should be dropped entirely. Not everyone subscribes to the "spend lots of money tracking everyone just in case something bad might happen" philosophy. "
I never mentioned the nothing to hide argument. I am uncomfortable with the idea that the government could track my every move. Then again I don't think the CIA, FBI, ATF, NSA, whatever secret government agency you want to think is watching you will ever bust me for smoking a joint or speeding. They have bigger problems.
I am willing to pay a few more dollars each year if that means that 20 children live when they would have died otherwise. What is more important in the big picture of being a decent human being, you saving a few dollars a year on taxes (as that is what you are saying your concern is) or 20 kids not being orphaned.
How is mandating public safety creating a Nanny state? An analogous argument... don't require cars with seat belts, and those that do have them, don't require them to use 'em, because some people don't like to use them. Don't require roads to have guardrails, mostly only poeple that at stupid enough to fall asleep need them. Oh, and disable that feature that allows 911 to trace land-line calls, it's an invation of privacy.
because people can't be bothered to know where they are...
You expect people to account for where they are to within shouting distance at all times? What if you are on an unfamiliar road, hit some black ice and crash in the woods? Is it your fault you don't know exactly where you are?
You're suggesting that I, as a taxpayer, should pay more for emergency services to have GPS systems and mapping software (along with all the updates).
No, the mandate is for the cell company to be able to provide information to locate you and tell emergency services where you are. ie. 1.85 miles down route 18 to the right 100 yards. Therefore there's no need to have EMTs walking around with GPS stuff. It's just that cell-phones will be a little more expensive. I don't know why this is so objectionable to you, as you can't buy a car without the safety features.
This mandate will save lives. At the expense of what? somebody misusing your location? If you are that concerned, turn the phone off and if you can't afford to missed calls, get a pager. Or here is an idea, have the GPS, (or whatever system) off by default and have 911 or whoever have the ability to turn it on.
Why, o why must the sky fall when I've learned to fly?
You forgot the Unibomber and restrictions at the Post Office. The Unibomber has been behind bars for years, but you still cannot drop off a package at the Post Office -- you have to take it inside during normal business hours and wait in line for a human to take it from you -- as if that will stop the next Unibomber!
But you're wrong about TWA 800. It wasn't a Navy missle, it was a meteor. But they can't sue God for sending a meteor into the path of an airplane, so they had to blame Boeing.
If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
If I remember right, the technology was "invented" to track down and capture Kevin Mitnick. Trangulation of cell towers signaling to/from your cell phone.
I believe the movie or was it a book about this was called Operation Takedown.
Now the ability to do it on a large scale is what was implemented recently. If I'm not mistaken.
Maybe there are a shitload of terrorists that need to be tracked.
Who will guard the guards?
Hmm...I wonder just how hard it WOULD be to acquire a totally new, untraceable identity?
Also, is it actually against the law to have multiple identities?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
If I remember right, I can't find the newspaper article.
Back when Clinton was visiting Brazil (?) many plots (3 or 4 different cells of terrorists) to kill him were foiled by authorities. It turns out that the intelligence agencies (US) just snooped the cell (and maybe landlines too) traffic for the "entire country". Turns out the scum bags were using pre paid cellular phone bought with cash.
Who will guard the guards?
You don't need to follow cell phones; you don't need satellites. All you need to do is follow the money. Everyone except your average goofy couch-potato American knows that some very powerful Saudis are funding this whole terrorist network. When we remove their ally from the white house, we might be able to take real action against the terrorists.
I know, what a pain in the backside it is to show someone your driver's license before boarding a plane, it wastes all of 10 seconds.
What's next, maybe the goverment will make us put plates on our cars that uniquely ID them.
Jeezz
Dear AC:
I often go out riding my motorcycle long after dark. Sometimes (well most of the time) I have no idea where I am, where I am going, or how I got there.
I know, most people would say I have my head up my ass, but for me it's a way of life.
And just the other day my motorcycle just burst into flames while I wasn't even riding it. So I stood 50 yards away from it, in the event it blew-up like the cars do in the movies.
Who will guard the guards?
Not just -1, Insightful. They (OSDN) also stripped me of all my karma (was "excellent", is now "terrible") so I have to post AC.
:>
At first I was pissed, but now I'm actually kind of proud.
-- corebreech
That's the bottom line here. The people who shout long and hard about the government are evidently people who desperately want to believe someone cares about them and what they do.
The fact is, the government has bigger fish to fry (say Al Qaeda) and they really don't care about the college dope head or the guy pirating Simcity. Sorry. They have lots-o-money, but they also have a big world in which some very vengeful and dangerous people are hiding.
Most government types (some of my friends and people I went to school with, by the way) are scrupulously honest and have more rules to follow than you'd ever believe. There's no doubt some corruption at the top -- as in every bureacracy -- but most of the worker bees are honest and overworked and trying to stop someone from slicing your mother's throat and blowing your father up to make some kind of statement.
... parroting the right-wing "guilty until proven innocent" mentality.
I object to your characterization of that mentality as right-wing.
The right has no monopoly on it. It's characteristic of ALL authoritarian political leanings, and quite as prevalant (if not more so) among the PC crowd as it is among the knee-jerk branch of the right.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Padilla is getting it easy: he deserves the firing squad. That is what treason gets you.
Treason is tightly defined by the constitution. It can't exist except in time of DECLARED war (which we DON'T have at the moment.)
This is why Jane Fonda got to marry a billionaire rather than twist slowly at the end of a noose.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
This is the New York Times we're talking about here. Has anyone independently verified that this actually took place?
I remember asking my teacher why we were free and other countries weren't, and she replied that in other countries you couldn't even travel without showing the authorities your papers whenever they asked.
Think for yourself a little more. Rely less on major news outlets for your opinions. Another suggestion: don't simply accept as truth everything people in authority tell you.
"Enemy combatants"... you are parroting a term invented by the U.S. government to allow them to do things which are not permitted under U.S. and international law.
You, sir, are the characteristic sheep.
Did it dawn on you that perhaps the Navy denied the existence of those anti-aircraft weapons in the submarine for security reasons?
Anywau I always thought the vertical launch tubes were for nukular ICBMs, so what do I know?
It depends.
Examine this closely in your area.
I understand that I can assume any name I want, and tell people that name.
Where it becomes illegal is 1) fraud to gain benefit and 2) governemtn stuff -- drivers licence, taxes and so on.
But when I rent a house, I'm free to tell sally secretary I'm Reginald Winterbottom the third. Just check the fine print of what you're signing for the blurb about criminal offence for misleading information. If it's got that, then you could be in trouble.
If you change your name by deed poll, then of course it's on the public record. It won't get around serious people but employers and small business probably wouldn't dig too deep.
YMMV
Please explain to me what the point would be to putting anti-aircraft weapons onboard submarines that couldn't use them without surfacing. Kind of defeats the point of a submarine.
Please also explain to me how even if this was the case (a US Navy ship shot down the airliner) it would remain a secret? Do you really think the crew of the ship would remain silent?
Anywau I always thought the vertical launch tubes were for nukular ICBMs, so what do I know?
On the Ohio SSBN yes. The text that I quoted was talking about the 688I class attack submarine. On those subs the tubes are used for Tomahawks.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
The article says that, when all was said and done, and the terrorists had been tracked despite having bought the SIM cards anonymously, the Swiss responded by passing a law to prevent people from buying SIM cards anonymously. Isn't this sort of stupid for two reasons. First, the terrorists wouldn't have fallen into the trap if they had to provide ID to buy the cards. Second, this only makes it hard for people who have a legitimate reason to want privacy.
I'm not worried about attracting the attention of the NSA and international intelligence agencies because I'm not doing anything illegal, much less terrorist related. I do want to be able to buy anonymous SIM cards, however, to prevent the telecom companies from keeping my call history and selling it to marketing agencies. I don't really trust their privacy policies and it's questionable how legally binding they are anyway if the company is sold to another company and they're bought by someone else...
Fear of government invasion of privacy is certainly a concern and always has been (lots of laws already exist) but the new trend is much more invasion of personal privacy by big business then was ever possible before. This is where we really need to look at new laws and policies.
And you lazy, mint julep sucking freaks need to join the real world where there is no such thing as being laid back. Stupid mother fucking bastards.
Since when is a SIM card anonymous? It's the "SUBSCRIBER IDENTITY MODULE".. April 1, yet? Yes? If there's anything news worthy in this it's that they were stupid.
Poof.
My cellphone is somewhat odd... everytime the battery is removed, it resets and I must manually set its date.
The default date from scratch is the day WTC was destroyed.
Spooky.
Don't forget all you conspiracy types: Any transmission can be traced and cell phonce calls aren't secure.
The government largely doesn't care what you do so long as you don't get fameous or infamous. That's why you don't get busted for going five miles over the speed limit but 20 will get you pulled over.
If the government wants to find you they will and usually will because of your own carelessness, not some secret technology.
Only the dead have seen the end of War. - Plato
No more ignorant than thinking the patriot act was "pushed
Just because those the apes in the White House propose something, or those bozos in Congress vote it, that doesn't it's either a) Constinutional, or b) an acurate representation of the citizens desires. To believe either is universally the case is just plain naive.
Declare a State of War, or admit that every action taken in the so-called 'War On Teror is illegal under US law, and that the totalitarian regime currently running the country is just a bunch of power mad thugs, are not Americans in the true sense of the word, and that American citizens will have to remove them to regain control of the country their anscestors fought, bled, and died for.
Kicking around a bunch of dirtbag Iraqis might be fun and profitable, but it's kiddie playground politics compared to the Defense of Liberty.
"The Internet is made of cats."
"Investigators were particularly alarmed by one call they overheard last June. The message: "The big guy is coming. He will be here soon.""
Um, right, because: a) al Qaeda operatives naturally speak in English so they can be more easily understood; and b) they naturally use silly English idioms when they speak.
"A half dozen senior officials in the United States and Europe agreed to talk in detail about the previously undisclosed investigation because, they said, it was completed."
and
"The Mont Blanc inquiry has wound down, although investigators are still monitoring the communications of a few people."
OK, which is it? Is the investigation over or are they still monitoring a "few people"? And if they are monitoring a few people, are they sure those people don't read the NYT?
"During the American bombing of Tora Bora in Afghanistan in December 2001, American authorities reported hearing Osama bin Laden speaking to his associates on a satellite phone. Since then, Mr. bin Laden has communicated with handwritten messages delivered by trusted couriers, officials said."
Well, folks, if you know enough to know he is writting his instructions by hand and delivering them by hand, then you know where he is. Otherwise, all you can say is that you "belive" he is doing this, which is the equivalent of saying you don't "know" anything.
Personally, I think all the space aliens who visit the Earth must be invisible because I have never seen any of them. It would never occur to me to doubt that space aliens have visited the Earth. :-P
There are other over problems like the fact that the government (German or otherwise) was monitoring a guy's phone calls because he was a muslim convert, apparently. Now, they say he contacted "Khalid Shaikh Mohammed" "who is accused of being the mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks" (does anyone remember when it was Ayman al Zawahiri the Egyptian doctor who had masterminded the attacks, or even Mohammed Atta?) but of course, they would only know who he called becaue they were monitoring his phone calls already. Yes, it is a wide net.
As someone else pointed out on here, this is not news, so the interesting question is why this story is being told at all right now. I don't for a minute believe it is because "a half dozen senior officials in the United States and Europe agreed to talk in detail about the previously undisclosed investigation."
"Agreed to talk in detail" indeed! That would imply that the request for the discussion came from the NYT, which would, of course, be impossible since the investigation was "previously undisclosed." Obviously, the impetus to talk about this came from the "senior officials." The question is: "why?" Is it to boost George Bush in the polls? Is it to bolster the cause for new eavesdropping legislation? Or is it something I am not yet guessing?
Folks, it is not becuase the government wants you to know their spying techniques. They don't even want you to use PGP!
Alcmaeon
Ps- The spelling was perfect, those are grammatical error's you clod. Way to try and look smart and end up looking like a _DUMB_ douche bag.
For the record, that is:
PS, not Ps
errors, not error's
Way to try TO look smart, not way to try AND look smart
Way to try looking smart, actually, to agree with the verb tense of looking later.
No offense, Doc, but your writing sucks.
For those interested a company named Telphia in San Francisco records the header records of all domestic US cell phone calls and stores a two-year history. They do not (or at least say they do not) record the calls, but the header records capture the source and destination numbers and the geographical cell ids of the source and destination and the length of the calls. The same information is in billing records of your cell phone provider, but Tehphia captures the information over the air and thus is not bound by any restrictions your provider may have. They claim the primary use of the information is for marketing research, but for that purpose they could aggregate the information and not save the actual cellphone numbers. I am sure that law enforcement makes some use of this "commercially available database" which may be why they don't question the precise legallity of Telphia's actions.
Many years ago I worked for the first GSM operator in one of the countries in the middle east. We had setup the gsm network, Motorola was the overseer of the installation. All of us were Arab engineers, mostly native to the country we were setting up in. Anyway, we setup the network and were almost through with the testing phase. About a month before official start of operations (selling to the public), the Motorola project manager tells us that one of his guys will be installing equipment in the Switching Center, and that we would not be involved. At least one of us was always involved during any installation since we might have to troubleshoot later. We were in the OMC (operations and Maintenance center), and he told us that we would not have any access to this equipment. This guy later arrives with a shitload of equipment and installs it. We were explicitly told not to touch it. The only thing I and the others could tell was that it was for listening in to the GSM calls, since the very nature of GSM (TDMA, etc) makes it difficult to just use a radio scanner. Best we could figure out was where the wires came in from and went out to. Turns out they were connected to the general intelligence department of the mukhabarat (sort of like FBI). Thus the intelligence boys didn't have to listen over the wireless, they tapped straight into the switching center, leaping over the whole GSM complexities. I suspect the US, UK, et al can tap straight into GSM over-wireless. But hey, if you live in one of the "friends-of-the-US" countries, you can go straight to the center.
Some time ago, I just decided to leave /. exactly because of that, fucking censorship.
And them, I came back, because there are some pretty amazing people out there, and you are one of them.
It's a shame : mankind is always the same. Just start to fight for freedom, and in that name, someone will eventually come and ask to shut the fuck up.
I don't even know why those people are defending free software (oh wait... they're defending open source)
Regards to you, and to you only this morning,
jdifool
Let's overcome our weakness.
OK, about the flight 800 thing, what bothers me here is the cause. Correct me if I am wrong but I was told that jet fuel is equivelent to 40 flash like diesel an kerosene if that is the case then a spark in the gass tank would not blow just burn, any 40 flash has to be compressed to some thing like 22:1 or better like a diesel to combust. you mean that tank in that jet is pressurized several hundred psi ? I don think so. anyway back on topic mobil phones will probibly have rfids,gsms,etc to help others keep track of where all mobil phones are. It would not surprise me if all phones have trackable serials. athoritys just point something like a pda at you an know atlest who the device is registered to . privacy down the drain....
USS Wyoming
. .g ... ..
Oficial Radar Transcript
-Insert Date Here-
Off the coast o Jersey:
PING.....PONG..PoNg...pONG..PonG.....pong......
PING......PONG...pONG.PoNg....PonG....pong.pon
PING.....PONG..pONG...PoNg.....PonG..........
With a good amount of pressure, salted with some confident smiles, I'm definitely confident in the fact that yes, something like that may have happened.
I mean, every pilot is saying that the government version is bogus, and they are not talking about it. So, in the same fashion, one crew could know that everything was bogus, and then shut the fuck up.
Fortunately, a trial has reopened last december, and I hope it will screw all your sarcasms.
You just can't deny that the official version is definitely wrong. If so, then you have blinders on. I'm just supporting the fact that a training, explosive charge free, missile from the Navy may have hit that plane.
Period.
jdif
Let's overcome our weakness.
True, and for a real life example, the Gimli Glider (a 767) (an excellent read, by the way) had a glide ratio of 11:1. 13,700 feet would provide a possible glide distance of 30 miles.
Our fine fine government can track cell phone calls BUT NOT JUMBO JETS THAT ARE 400 MILES OFF COURSE!
Whether or not you believe that Bush engineering 9/11 - one thing is certain - The Air Force must have had that day off
With a good amount of pressure, salted with some confident smiles, I'm definitely confident in the fact that yes, something like that may have happened.
8 years later, and no one has talked? 1/2 or more of those people on this mythical ship are no longer in the military.
You mean to tell me...not once in the last 8 years has anyone, after having too many beers, said to a (nonmilitary)buddy..."Guess what..."
No one has had a change of heart?
No one has (even anonymously) sent the details to a newspaper or TV station?
No disgruntled sailors with an axe to grind?
oh bullshit.
It's possible. It's also possible that green monkeys may fly out of my ass. But I don't think so.
Nice way to exchange opinions. I thank you.
Ok, so let's take another example. Pearl Harbor. It's been more than 60 years ago. There are strong reasons to believe that President Roosevelt knew something was gonna happen. And some high-end military officers knew it too.
And, despite the enormous work of some historians, it is a clue that hasn't been well explored.
And you know why ? Because it is high-end secrecy. It is in noone interest to have such information unveiled. Exactly like the nuclear bombs on Japan. Because it only changes for people who are willing to find the truth. It won't bring back people to life.
If you know that your boat/submarine/green monkey just launched a missile and destroyed a plane, well it won't be that hard for a persuasive officer to make you understand that it's better for you and the national security not to tell a thing.
And your too many beers you give me, I got five words for that : people never believe drunk people.
Some had change of heart, and they are fighting right now, in front of courts.
Evidence has been put away from curious eyes. And that's it.
Give a chance to what you pejoratively describe as a "conspiracy theroy", and you will see that it sounds possible. Again, I'm not saying it happened that way, I'm saying that, at least, we have to question the government version of that accident.
And it's really not possible that green monkeys may fly out of your ass. You are using some poor comparisons just to make your poor arguments prevail.
Too bad for you that you don't want to remove your blinders.
Now get away from me, you sick monkey swallower.
No regards,
jdif
Let's overcome our weakness.
I remembered his story incorrectly: I thought he was captured in the process of armed conflict against US troops.
John Walker on the other hand, is a different story. While he may not fall under the guidelines for treason, and thus execution, he should be given no quarter.
At any rate, here is a famous case of treason: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Rosenberg
I've just been doing some research, and it seems (I could be wrong) as though the Korean War was not declared. President Truman seems to have set the precedent for unilateral action by a commander in chief. Yet the Rosenbergs were executed for being Communist spies.
A witty saying proves you are wittier than the next guy.
Hum.. I guess not..
This slashdot thing is not too bad, in spite of the weird alphabet and the left to right text.
I hope you find this message. Anyways:
Please tell Mr. SMITH that his FRUIT shipment is ready for delivery, and that the PROM QUEEN is in the TAXI.
--------
Free the world from the great Satan
I didn't bother researching any of this until the (great-great-grandparent) post by corebreech. Since then, I read (well skimmed) the NTSB's (PDF) final Flight 800 report. The report is 350 pages of detailed fact finding and experimentation. The report convinced me that these people are professionals who really do know what they are doing.
Otherwise, I agree about the privacy down the drain thing, you can see my other post (actually on subject) below (or at this link).
No more ignorant than thinking the patriot act was "pushed
Just because those the apes in the White House propose something, or those bozos in Congress vote it, that doesn't mean it's either a) Constinutional, or b) an accurate representation of the citizens' desires. To believe either is universally the case is just plain naive.
Declare a State of War, or admit that every action taken in the so-called 'War On Terror' is illegal under US law, and that the totalitarian regime currently running the country is just a bunch of power mad thugs, are not Americans in the true sense of the word, and that American citizens will have to remove them to regain control of the country their anscestors fought, bled, and died for.
Kicking around a bunch of dirtbag Iraqis might be fun and profitable, but it's kiddie playground politics compared to the Defense of Liberty.
"The Internet is made of cats."
Very good points, indeed (one of the fortunate minority to not send this one downward!). I'll clarify where I originally meant this one to go.
/. and the public in general to get something wrong - it's only human. It's disturbing however, when the people who are responsible for major decisions(corporate,governmental) either go with incorrect information and not bother to verify the information at all - or let politics give incorrect information about the issue, sometimes with disastrous results. I'm not saying they should either take forever for the correct solution, or that they arent capable of making a correct decision - just that they should remember how much of a scale their decisions make. Just as those in the military (recent example: both sides in the Iraqi conflicts, even with the psyops) who had the knowledge, the ones who used it most effectively went in the direction that did not mean a certain, pointless bloodbath(sometimes for both sides to of the conflict to all live); the less effective ones deciding to care less and continue to go at it, if it meant some political or personal award.
Don't try to set up a "me against everyone" type of discussion, because it is both false (because I am merely part of slashdot) and self defeating (because you are part of slashdot).
Well, what was meant by that, was the majority of slashdot (low uid, high uid, and those who decide to AC) after(and before) 9/11 seems to have a surprising amount of a blind trust in those who defend our nation; even if the well-informed opinion of those who are in charge have inaccuracies in their conclusions, deliberate or unintentional. It's one thing for the
As for the part about Al Qaeda, IANAOI/IANIOH (I am not Arab or Islamic/I am not Israeli or [of the] Hebrew [faith], the two prevalent groups in the Middle East that have gone against each other) - my perspective of this is a Catholic one, which from time to time can and has its own imperfections in it. To look at it, regardless if it's Al Qaeda wanting to impose their variation on an already extreme variety of Wahhabism (the belief system in Saudi Arabia where Osama bin Laden originally is from) on the world via terror, those in the US that you have named, or those in Israel(and beyond) who only know that it is more profitable to go for an encore of bloodshed, despite whatever has happened. I am not advocating distributed hate to all; that would be be taking the position of the betting house, taker of all that is in any bit of extremism. It is just tiring to see cultures that have been in both positions of opressor and oppressed for at least one time during known history "to go for the holy dollar, no matter who dies"(to paraphrase from Queensryche); to only end up coming up with extremism almost every time, to end up with them back where they started, switching places every few hundred years around known existence.
If anything, it is not me looking at slashdot (the site) although it is correct that you did call on the personal slant. It is myself looking through all of history and culture that I am currently aware of; seeing where the lack of correct information, the desire of humans to to overlook the correct information, and get the collisions that cause history to repeat itself- and I'm only (at this point) the observer who would rather divert from this self defeating route, but has to step back in to survive amongst the majority. Sometimes I forget that I've stepped back in, but with increasing wisdom, I find it possible to survive longer outside those who decide to live with ignorance and power.
"Forget the engineers." -Carly Fiorina, briber of MIT Technology Review.
I do agree that there is a disturbing trend in the U.S. to blindly go along with the direction (I can't bring myself to call it "leadership") put forth by the current administration. Of specific concern is the definition of "criminals," that I lay into above. That, however, is a topic far bigger than can be addressed by a simple post.
As I said, I get nervous when law enforcement approaches the line between investigation and abuse, but they are trained to walk that line. As long as we have the freedom to examine their actions under the harsh light of day and speak freely of what they are doing, we keep the balance.
Finally, I want to apologize if I came off harshly in my earlier post. As I said, your shorthand ("slashdot" instead of "many people on slashdot") got under my skin. I tried to keep my tone civil and polite, but I fear I may have let some emotions get the better of me. Again, apologies if I was anything less.
"Prepare for the worst - hope for the best."