Slashdot Mirror
Getting Around Printer-Manufacturer Abuse
An anonymous reader writes "Here's a guy that demonstrates how printer companies abuse their clients. He found that Lexmark cartridges are a perfect replacement for Xerox ones, with only minor modifications to the printer.
It's well illustrated with may photographs."
Don't use it if you don't like it. It's not like there are only 8 brand of printer. Oh wait...
...That Xerox tries to sue this guy to take down the information?
Not sure what law they'd pull out of their hat for the job, especially since this guy is not US based, but this just seems like it's raining on their parade a bit too much for Xerox to not pull out the lawyers.
Information doesn't want to be anthropomorphized anymore.
Unfortunately, HP has different connectors on the back of their cartridges across their product line, which makes it impossible to use cartridges which doesn't officially support your printer.
Yes, I know that there might be valid reasons for this (e.g different and better features regarding to ink-economy etc), but why isn't it possible to enable some kind of "legacy-mode" to enable us to use any DeskJet print cartridge across HP's product line?
If cartridges were really overpriced, then a 3rd party would enter the market. That's capitalism 101.
An when a third party enters the market, they get sued under the DCMA. That's capitalism 102.
Unfortunately these kinds of abuses are prevalent throughout this industry, this specific one brings to mind the advert with for OfficeDepot, I think it is, where the guy reads out the cartridge numbers like it he is reading out lottery numbers.
It is annoying that standardisation has spread through the majority of hardware issues, but still remains stubborn when it comes to printer cartridges.
Post apocalyptic gaming goodness
First off didn't read the article yet...but I can tell you that despite the bad practices of printer manufacturers, using third party stuff could void your warranty.
In this case, we have a tektronix (before xerox bought the printing division) that was damaged because someone moved it before properly letting the wax ink dry.
We had a xerox authorized rep, come and take a look at it, telling us how to try to fix it and telling us she suspected that the problem was two fold. Someone had moved the printer before letting the wax dry out into a solid, so that the wax liquid had gotten into some of the nozzles...and also she said that the damage was probably caused by our use of third party wax ink cartridges.
Something to do with the ink in the tektronic being a patented (term?) chemical mixture meant to work in a certain way when it was heated. Although you can use third party ink for it, it is not the same type of mixture and thus can have unexpected side effects.
So short answer is make sure you know what you are giving up by using third party stuff, as it may end up voiding your warranty and possibly ruining your printer (in this case an expensive $1,000 or so printer).
Sure for a cheap inkjet it probably doesnt matter, as if it breaks it's cheap to replace.
.... ... }
int main (void) {
this just reminds me of how they give you those "starter" ink cart. when you first buy the printer, some tell you, some dont...
had a brother fax machine at work once... "this is a sample toner cart. that will only make around 40 faxes" wtf? cheap ass brother...
nothing too new i guess....
"an eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind"
If cartridges were really overpriced, then a 3rd party would enter the market. That's capitalism 101.
Unless, of course, the cartidge connection design is patented. In which case, for the third party to enter the market they would need to negotiate a license for the patent which would essentially be equal to or greater than the profit made per unit.
But that's capitalism 202.
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
Normally I found that Lexmark cartridges are insanely prices compared to the other brands which shows up furthermore in the price-per-page comparisons you often see.
:-?
Personally I've gone for the 4-cartridge Canon systems for inkjet and a HP 2200D Laser for the normal stuff (using refurbished toner cartridges - a mere $118 rather than $269 - complete with warranty).
This guy certainly proves that a little bit of searching around sure saves a LOT of money.
The whole printer-ink system reeks of things like the Debeers diamond cartel.
Now, I wonder how long this guy's WWW site will stay up
Article from the Chicago Tribune (free reg needed): http://www.chicagotribune.com/technology/chi-02102 2ink,1,1030029.story
A cartridge conspiracy
By Phillip Robinson
Knight Ridder/Tribune
Published October 22, 2002
Ford and Chevron have partnered to design a new SUV. They claim it will run smoother and longer on a gallon of gas than any other SUV in the same class.
However, you'll have to use a special Chevron Premium gas that costs 30 percent to 70 percent more than typical gas. It's up around the $3- to
$4-a-gallon level. Use any other gas from any other station and a microchip in the tank will detect the difference and prevent the SUV from starting.
That protects you from poor performance and possible damage to the finely tuned engine. In fact, trying to use any other gas can sometimes void your warranty.
Relax. It isn't true. In cars, that is. (My apologies to Ford and Chevron.)
But it is true in computer printers.
Time to stop relaxing.
Some of the biggest inkjet printer makers are implanting chips in inkjet cartridges. These chips monitor the ink supply and let you know when you're getting low. They can even freeze the printer when the cartridge is empty. Supposedly that can permanently damage the printer.
So far, not so bad. Pretty much all cars have a fuel gauge, and all printers should, too. I loved when Lexmark added ink supply monitors to its software, so I could see how much was left. Few things are more annoying than getting halfway through a vital document only to run out of ink.
If and when you do find the cartridge, let's hope it isn't your first time buying replacement ink. First-timers are typically shocked at what they have to pay. That $100 inkjet printer may need three $35 cartridges to get back in a printing mood.
No wonder HP makes more profit on "consumables" such as ink than on anything else. No wonder Dell wants into the business. No wonder there's a busy
"recycling" and "remanufacturing" business in discount ink cartridges.
A growing number of companies refill used cartridges, and then sell them - often on the Internet - for 30 percent to 50 percent less. That saves you a lot of money and saves dumps from piles of dead cartridges.
But the remanufacturers won't be able to put a new chip in this latest cartridge design. Or be able to set the old chip back to recognizing "full."
Once that cartridge is empty, it's kaput. No recycling, no savings. The chip "squeals" on any attempt to reuse.
Some inkjet printer owners use their own refill kits to save even more money on ink. These kits are available even in some standard stores. They include a syringe, large bottles of ink and instructions. You fill the syringe and
then inject your cartridges. There's the danger of a mess, and of voiding the warranty, but there's also the prospect of saving 80 percent to 90
percent.
Smart chips in cartridges will also be able to terminate this savings. Once a cartridge is detected as empty, the chip can refuse to recognize it again as full.
It's called "lock in." Many tech companies are looking for ways to lock their customers in, to make it difficult or impossible for customers to
switch to using other suppliers in the future.
Of course, they don't advertise it that way. And many of their engineers and marketers may honestly not believe it that way.
They'll talk about the quality of the ink they make. How it's as much a part of the printing technology as the hardware and software. How you need all three working together to get the full performance. How they want to protect
you from bad prints, and the clogged inkjet tubes and broken printers that cheap ink can cause.
And you know, they're sometimes right. Cheap ink can make cheap-looking prints. No-name ink can clog those tiny jets in your printer.
But shouldn't you be the one to make the decision about which to use? Do you want the company "protecting" you ag
Xerox: Hello, Lexmark support line.
Caller: Yes I'd like to return my printer for new print heads but it has some... minor modifications.
Xerox: You put a viynl sticker on it?
Caller: Not exactly...
Xerox: You wrote the name of your company or business in large letters on the printer to discourage looting?
Caller: Not quite.....
Xerox: Then what?
Caller: I snapped off some plastic bits, by erm, accident.
Xerox: These wouldn't happen to be the print cartridge grabbing bits would they?
Caller: Why yes! They just so happen to be, coincidentally.
Xerox: No support for you! Call back, one year! (dialtone)
Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
Now, comparing the Lexmark 12A1975 (the high-yield variant), we se that this has a list price of $40.99, compared to the Xerox part at $41.99. At amazon.com, you get them at $36.88 and $37.88 respectively.
I actually like that fact that Xerox doesn't seem to ship the low-yield variant.
After a bit of researching I also picked up a canon (i550 model). How refreshing to see the ink cartridges are just that - not cartridges + printheads + drm chips.
The print quality is very good for the price (US $110 or so for the 550) and the inks are sold separately _for each color_ to save you money if one color runs out faster than the others. If you are really a cheap bastard you can use third party ink refilling kits without worry, but I've found the quality to be slightly better using the real canon inks.
Best part - a manufacturer original black ink cartridge costs $15 at normal retail. Try finding that for your lexmark or xerox or hp. There are third party knockoff cartridges even cheaper, but they may not print as well on e.g. glossy photo paper.
The i550 is slightly cheaper than the real "photo quality" ones that have special photo color inks in addition to the regular cmy ink. If you are a real photo quality nut you probably want one of those.
I would buy another one in a heartbeat. Screw all those greedy customer screwing "but look how cheap the printer is" bait and switch bastard manufacturers.
Lexmark, Ink. (pun intended) should be beaten with a rubber hose until they drool on the floor.
I have a old Canon BJ-200, that while the quality is not of Lexmark on its best day, I could plug it in right now and it will work - the carts never dry up. Ever. I am fully confident that the fossil record will show this.
I also have a old Panasonic KX-somthing or other that is noisy as hell but will print my obiturary, I'm sure. Which will most likely be soon, as I can't afford food after buying Lexmark supplies.
Anyhow, if Xerox and Lexmark are using similar carts, that is pretty much a big flag to avoid both companies like a strip bar named 'Fish n' Chips'.
Oh, you might be tempted, but there is something they're not telling you.
It seems it's defeating a security feature...
every lexmark printer i've had to work with (and believe its been a quite a few) has been a cheap piece of crap. Most inkjets are pretty cheesy too. And the scary thing is, you can get quality lasers (samsung ml-1710) for under $100 if you shop hard. No funky multi-meg drivers required either.
Lawyers, MBA's, RIAA? A jedi fears not these things!
He could probably also make som decent savings by cutting down on the exclamation marks!!!
Do we not all remember the stories about Lexmark and the DMCA ( ie Lexmark are sueing manufacturers of compatible toner under the DMCA ).
Lexmark products are also low quality and high priced. I'd prefer to buy from Xerox myself.
I just bought an Epson wide format for 5 bucks that was donated by a place that switched to inkjets (FOOLS!)
They are harder to find now that inkjet and laser are cheap and plentyful, but they are out there. I recall a trip to the Salvation Army warehouse in Minneapolis in the mid 90s where they had a 40+ foot wall of dot matrix printers. They also had pee-stained underwear, I recall with disgust.
Hell, the store in my small town here has two lasers, an inkjet, a dot matrix, and an Apple IIgs with all the trimmings (disks, monitor, and an Imagewriter II - the best dot matrix ever :) The printers are 5 dollars, the IIgs is 30!
You can't go wrong with an Imagewriter.
They also have pee-stained underwear, microwaves with dials, candy from dead people's houses, and what I think may be the world's largest bra.
Fun for the whole family!
It's well illustrated with [many] photographs.
Translation: the site won't survive 5 minutes of slashdotting.
The shareholder is always right.
...you can get a new Lexmark for about 30 Euro with (full!) back and color cartridges.
You print with it until the cartridges are empty.
Then you drive to Lexmark Germany and throw the now worthless printer without wasting any comments into their front garden and go and buy the next one.
Someday they'll learn and understand.
End of story.
They already tried to take the information down... ... they submitted the site to SlashDot ;)
A lot of people get this impression of capitalism as being TINA (there's no alternative). Capitalism is as good as gravitation, magnetism, chemical kinetics: it is a number of phenomena that obey social or physical laws, and the result can or cannot be good for society (depending also on the definition of what "good" is)
Simple capitalism theory, including the demonstration that perfect competition is the most efficient way to produce goods, rests on three pillars:
When some of these assumptions go bananas, so goes efficiency, and that's when your wallet starts aching.
It is maybe worth noting that all requirements are in open contradiction, since you can't have perfect knowledge of a infinite market, nor is everything packed in only one market - e.g. ordering from abroad will cost you an "access fee" in the form of mailing costs, that makes buying a 1% cheaper ice cream in Bucharest unattractive if you live in Miami. This simply means that capitalism is achievable only as an approximation, how good depends on the people who set the rules.
In the case of printer cartridges, 1 goes bananas because every producer is a near-monopolist of his printers; 2 goes bananas because few know that it is possible to hack printers to pay less; and 3 because every printer manufacturer has his cartridge market, sometimes more as their printers are normally not cross-compatible.
So, this is indeed Capitalism 101, but at the distortion of market chapter. What needs to be done is a state-imposed standard on printer cartridges, to reinstate competition and fair pricing. Start bullying your politicians today!
Victims of 9/11: <3000. Traffic in the US: >30,000/y
As always there are two sides to this:
One is the fact that ink is too expensive, and manufacturers know that. Price of really cheap printers is intentionally as low as it can be, and by using proprietary ink cartridges, manufacturers are only protecting their investment. They sold you a cheap printer, and hope to get their money back on cartridges. It's not just the cartridges. Ever wondered why most of the printers are shipped without printer cable?
A printer cable can cost as much as $25 for a 3m cable, and yet the real price of the cable must be under $1 in bulk. Talking about profit...
The other side has it with print quality. Printer HAS to know, because of the way it's designed, what kind of ink is in the cartridge. Electronics has to be able to direct correct amount of ink at the right time. Replacement ink usually has different physical properties (boiling point, composition, amount of pigment), and the printer has no way of detecting what really got through to paper surface. So with different cartridges you will get different quality and even different colors on paper.
It's a desperate attempt to hang onto profits despite their product becoming a commodity.
They're trying to push the market uphill, by charging heavily for something that was cheap to make (the cartriges), and sooner or later the market will rebound. At which point the profit margins will fall out the bottom of the printer industry, all but the big few will go bust, and innovation will slow to a trickle.
Of course, if it hadn't been for the patent system totally distorting the market, they could never have pulled this stunt to begin with -- but had that happened, you would probably still be using dot-matrix.
My mother in law owns a Con S450, which started generating the error code (flashing orange/green) ...-o-o-o-o-o-o-g-... repeatedly.
... but it seems to me applicable to this topic.
Looking it up on the web, we found this (google cache) and this (google cache).
I'll let people make their own opinions, so that I don't accuse them
Anyhow, we don't have a fix, nor much expectation of getting one.
Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
All it takes is adding something to the ink that makes it a bit more viscous or a bit less, and then modifying the mechanism to cope.
I'm surprised the Big Inkjet Printer Manufacturers haven't already done so.
When I used a printer, I used a laser that someone had tossed out, which worked nicely.
Now, though, I just plain don't print anything. Everyone likes having things in electronic format, anyway. These days, most things handed to someone on paper just get entered into a computer.
May we never see th
as other posters have mentioned.
;-)
In Aust., they were selling unbelievably cheap moble phones several years back (might still be, I don't live there ATM) but you had to sign up to a rediculously expensive usage plan. Eventually the Govt. made the companies print an expected cost over 1 year of normal use on all advertising.
A similar regulation for printers might solve what is esentially the same problem in a different consumer sector.
Or we could just keep it in mind and calculate it ourselves. Are we not geeks?!
The man with no surname and a silly hat
On the universe: It's bunk.
If they really wanted to, couldn't manufacturers embed a passive RFID tag inside the body of the cartridge to ensure "their" printer only uses "their" brand ink?
I think for that to happen, they would however need a way to make the cartridges non-refillable.
To-do List: Receive telemarketing call during a tornado warning. Check.
When I ponder the ink cartridge issue in my head I try to relate it to the auto industry. With manufacturers oursourcing their pars more and more, the chances of two products from competing products containing the same or very similar parts increases. On the one hand the manufacturer is trying to determine the value of manufacturing a component over its lifetime. On the other hand the consumer wants the parts as cheaply as they can get them. Either way the R&D and engineering that want into designing the component should be reimbursed. Same thing with drugs. Same thing with art.
But then again the gas and fuel filling recepticles on cars are universal. But in that case the engineers in one industry (automotive) were makeing their product compatible with a system designed by another industry (petroleum). Maybe a company should come along and supply really good ink at commodity prices. Maybe printer companies wouold then have an incentive to standardize. Of course they would also probably have to char 5X for the printer or just plain get out of the printer business.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
They way printer manufacturers try to sell cheap printers only to then make money by selling the ink has gotten really ridiculous. Let me tell you an example: Somebody I know has a small PC shop in addition to his normal job. Some weeks ago, he got an offer from one of the sellers he gets his hardware from about a pretty cheap Lexmark printer (Z65pro IIRC, some color ink printer with integrated 10/100 print server). They offered the printer to him for about 60 Euros, including a "high capacity" color ink cartridge. Since this was pretty cheap, he ordered fifteen printers and then sold them to some of his customers who were looking for a cheap printer to go with their new computer. Some of them also wanted an additional ink cartridge, just in case. My colleague then looked what a new original Lexmark ink cartridge for this printer would cost - 70 Euros!
...
End result: he ended up buying ten additional PRINTERS, stripped them of the ink cartridge (which he then sold to his customers) and sold the printers, without ink cartridge, for a few Euros each on eBay. It was actually FAR CHEAPER to buy a WHOLE NEW PRINTER than to buy an additional ink cartridge.
Instead of buying ink - just throw the printer away and buy a new one
Speaking as an author who actually does have to deal with 500 page manuscripts on a regular basis, I've learned quite a bit about printers. I started off with a dot matrix when I was in university, and then, when I was moving to my apartment in Kingston, had to choose between a laser and an inkjet.
I'll freely admit, even now, that a dot matrix is much more economical than an inkjet. But, for the purposes of writing, they're just too slow. I don't have the time to have my printer occupied for an entire day printing out that book that I'm sending off to the publisher. So, the dot matrix was cancelled out immediately.
When I did my research on the inkjets, I learned one important thing - the inkjet printers sell for less than they cost to make. Every time an inkjet printer is sold, it's at a loss to the company making it. They make their money off the ink. I'm not sure if it's honest or not - I imagine if you're just going to be printing out the occasional webpage, it doesn't matter all that much. For a writer, though, it would be a disaster.
On to the laser printer. At the time I bought, the lasers were printing at least ten pages per minute, and the toner cartridges lasted (and still do) for around 3-6,000 sheets (I use a Brother). I can't complain about the print quality at all. As an author, the laser was the logical choice.
But here's the thing - I'm an author, but most people aren't. There are a lot of casual users who don't use that much paper with their computer at all. It takes them a year to print out what I would print out in a month. To them, a dot matrix or a laser printer is overkill.
I wonder, however, just how many people bother to do the research that I did before deciding which printer to buy.
Robert B. Marks
Author, Demonsbane in Diablo Archive
"No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumers using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade or corporate name
Simply put, the warrantor can not void a warranty because of the use of an aftermarket part. Furthermore the warrantor must show that an aftermarket part caused the damage in question that they wish to void the warranty over. While this act was passed to protect automotive aftermarket part manufacturers I'm guessing it could be applied to this situation. Maybe someone with Westlaw access could check.
Check out "Understanding the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act" for some more information.
Of course getting a manufacturer to obey the law and not try to weasel out of their obligations is something completely different.
"And a voice was screaming: 'Holy Jesus! What are these goddamn animals?'" - HST
I have Panasonic cordless phones -- two phones with one battery each, and one spare battery recharging in the base station. The Panasonic batteries were expensive and hard to find, but I found an identical, generic battery at Sears. The battery didn't fit -- until I removed an extraneous bit of plastic with a Dremmel tool. Works like a charm...
I really hate the fact that the cost of replacement carts can and often do exceed the cost of an inexpensive printer. I don't do a whole lot of printing anymore because of the excessive cost of these danged carts.
When you buy replacement part for a car, you have several choices. You can buy parts from the OEM, you can buy parts on the secondary market from after market manufacturers and you can buy parts from rebuilders. There are advantages and disadvadvantages to each. You know those advantages and purchase accordingly.
It used to be the same with replacement parts for printers but with the DCMA and other regulations, it is now more or less a thing of the past. It is wrong. The manufacturer is now able to say "One of the things that you do when you buy this printer from us is you enter into a relationship with us for as long as you own the printer." This is not what I expected. I wonder what's next - will they develop a printer that only works with the paper they make?
I've contemplated buying a printer and modifying it so that I can easily refill it using syringes filled with ink. But I understand that Lexmark, HP and others have started building in "smart chips" that kind of count the ink that the cart dispenses. These chips then simply shut down after a perscribed amount of time. I don't know how true this is but I think I'll try this with my $35 Lexmark just to see.
...to get modded +5, Informative, I simply have to make two factual statements, one of which is wrong, and the other monumentally obvious.
Fantastic
The reason your ink counter reset is because you removed the cartridge. Newer cartridges would not reset on their new line; they have a chip that meters ink usage. The reason they do this is quite simple; if you use the printer without ink it will ruin the head. Epson uses a micromechatronic head system consisting of a diamond attenuating in a pressurized chamber. If you run their ink system without ink "which acts as a cooling agent and a lubricant", you will fry the head and/or the quality will degrade considerably. The reason it refuses to print after the color is empty, even if you are just printing b&w is due to the fact it primes and cleans the heads before use, which uses both cartridges. If you do that without ink, you will hurt and/or fry the head. I've seen many of their old systems get fried because of this; fortunately their new system isn't as susceptible to this workaround of the protection system.