EB Demands Payment From Victim of Theft

issue? by cft · 2004-03-07 05:58 · Score: 5, Insightful

how is this even an issue? the law clearly states that they must hold the goods for a certain amount of time (10 days
if I'm not mistaken before they're given away. The article says she went to the store after two days and they had already
sold her playstation. They clearly violated law and should be reported to the authorities, not the manager as she did.

Re:issue? by bloodrose · 2004-03-07 06:03 · Score: 5, Insightful

Sometimes calling the police isn't feasible. On many things, such as small claims like this, the police will require some level of proof before they move on it. In some cases, gathering a minor amount of proof and taking EB to small claims court would be a better route. At least, it seems that way to me.
Re:issue? by midol · 2004-03-07 06:04 · Score: 2, Insightful

Has she gone to the police and charged the store with possession of stolen goods? That should light a little fire under them. Especially if they have already been flagrantly flouting the law.
Re:issue? by LostCluster · 2004-03-07 06:05 · Score: 4, Interesting

But in this case, the police should already have enough proof. There's a confession from the thief, and a matching transaction that fits the description on EB's records too.
Re:issue? by bloodrose · 2004-03-07 06:10 · Score: 4, Interesting

True enough, but at that point, it isnt the police's job to strong arm EB into providing restitution. That burden lies in the arms of the courts.
Re:issue? by metlin · 2004-03-07 06:11 · Score: 5, Interesting

Looks like you have not read the article in full, its 15 days actually :-)

From the article -

Under state law, all merchants who deal in secondhand goods are required to hold those goods for 15 calendar days before selling them. The law is designed specifically to prevent the sale of stolen goods, and prevent situations like this.

Well, you cannot blame her for not reporting it to the authorities - usually you end up going to the authorities only as a last resort. You try and solve problems as best as you can before that with the company and if that does not work out, you see restitution.

But now that its out in the open, it may turn quite interesting.
Re:issue? by LostCluster · 2004-03-07 06:14 · Score: 5, Insightful

Actually, a court is only supposed to resolve disuptes into who owns an item. Once a court certifies that this woman owns what she says she owns, it then falls back onto the police to do the strongarming.
Re:issue? by Passman · 2004-03-07 06:27 · Score: 2, Informative

Has she gone to the police and charged the store with possession of stolen goods?
While I am not an expert on Florida law in most states of the USA you can't. Why not? Because pawn brokers, which EB would likely claim they are, are exempt from fensing laws (i.e. recieving stolen property) in most states unless they actually know the property is stolen. Several states even exempt pawn brokers in situations where they reasonably should suspect the materials are stolen (the homeless person selling the diamond necklace type situation).
Don't ask me why this is because I don't know. All I can speculate is that sometime in the recent past pawnbrokers performed some really good lobbying efforts.

--
Minne-snow-da: Winter is comming...
Re:issue? by dubiousmike · 2004-03-07 06:30 · Score: 4, Funny

"I was under the impression that purchasers of stolen merchandise could expect it to be seized by the police (who would return it to the owner) and not recover any of the money they spent buying it unless they took action against the thief. Is that not the case in Florida?"

They voted on it and are in the middle of their third recount...
Re:issue? by Mistlefoot · 2004-03-07 06:34 · Score: 4, Interesting

I wonder what would have happened if she had just simply "taken" them back.

It would be hard to charge her with stealing stuff that she already owned.

I'm sure someone here must know some law on this.
Re:issue? by bleh-of-the-huns · 2004-03-07 06:35 · Score: 5, Interesting

Not true, the police are supposed to seize stolen goods as evidence, and then the goods get returned to the original owner, and its up to EB to attempt to get their money back from the thief if its possible.

More to the point.. what the fuck were they (EB) thinking.. is the bad publicity over this whole incident worth the negligable amount of money to this woman.... I think not, this will cost them alot more in the long run, and I hope the authorities come down hard on EB for violating the laws and this persons rights

--
I came, I conquered, I coredumped
Re:issue? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-07 06:36 · Score: 2, Informative

Pawn brokers must hold pawned items for 15 days and provide to the police detailed lists of what they've received. They're very much not exempt from that law.
Re:issue? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-07 06:36 · Score: 5, Interesting

Sometimes calling the police isn't feasible

Lately, it seems like nothing's feasible. I had a truck broken into last year and $2K of tools and test equipment taken out of it. Response from the police? Leave a message on the answering machine and never, ever expect any followup. "It's an insurance matter."

Some of the equipment was licensed amateur radio gear that was very distinguishable. Checked with pawn shops. They told me to get lost: "We don't have to talk to you or tell you if we have your equipment or not. Only the police can check."

Obviously not if the police don't investigate it and relegate the matter to an answering machine (a friend at the police department said they only use those cases for statistical purposes - e.g. demonstrating they need more funding because of greater crime, though who knows what they'd do with more funds. Obviously not chase ordinary criminals that affect most of us).

Insurance company was no help either? Played "let's demand proof for everything" - and when proof was provided, claimed to lose forms, require reapplication, and then "mistakenly" closed my case twice. Never got paid a cent, though they indicated I had a claim. Recourse? File complaint with state insurance regulators. (Hint: their address is /dev/null).

Now we're dealing with a significant theft and destruction to a federally licensed communication site at work (in a matter that is going on across the country), and the local FBI office won't response. They're pretty busy hanging on Internet chat rooms nabbing perverts - maybe playing on the PC is more fun than doing field work. Local law enforcement says it's a national matter and has no resources to investigate.

Conclusion? Seems like a good time to be a crook or an insurance company. Us poor schmucks are outgunned and unrepresented. How's that "no taxation without representation" line go again?
Re:issue? by Dolphinzilla · 2004-03-07 06:44 · Score: 4, Interesting

Do what I just did, write an e-mail to EB Games and inform them that you find their business practices unsavory and won't give them any future business. I think in this case the consumer may be able to make more of an impact on this situation than the local law enforcement.
Re:issue? by Calmiche · 2004-03-07 06:47 · Score: 5, Informative

Let's see this from a Pawnbrokers point of view.

As a pawn broker in Idaho, it's not quite that way here. In Idaho, we are required to hold ANY property for a minimum of 30 days if bought of 60 days if pawned. We also report full descriptions of EVERYTHING that comes over our counter. Serial numbers, distinguishing marks, colors, model numbers, EVERYTHING. We fill our several copies for each pawn/buy and send them to the police twice a week.

Any police officer may place a "Hold" on an item for any reason, which adds another 90 days. They may also extend that hold another 90 days as many times as they wish.

However, as a pawn shop, the authorities try to take us. That is, quite often, a patrolman will come in and demand that we relinquish property, which they intend to give directly back to the person who's property was stolen. Technically this is against the law for them to do, since we bought it in good faith.

We don't take items that we even suspect are stolen. In fact, I turned down a nice mp3 player yesterday because I suspected it was stolen. I couldn't prove anything so I couldn't call the police, but I didn't take it either.

We are always willing to "Hold" an item for as long as is needed, but we require an inventory requisition sheet be filed and that a disposition hearing be held to determine where the property should go.

If we didn't do this, we would have stuff "stolen" from us continually.

There have been several times in the last couple years when someone will come in, write down serial numbers on some of our stock, and then go to the police claiming it was stolen. Most of them are in jail for fraud, and one is awaiting sentancing right now.

This is also why we hate used stores like EB, Hastings, etc.. They don't have any of the same requirements. In fact, I've never seen a city ordinace that adressed pawn shops and second hand stores together. So don't go describing EB as a pawn shop. It isn't.

Your best bet for protection? Always right down serial numbers! It makes it 85% more likely that you will get your property back.

Calmiche,
Re:issue? by sharper56 · 2004-03-07 06:49 · Score: 2, Insightful

You just figure this out? Since 9/11 crime in general and organized crime in particular has taken off now that we have the FEDs looking for the next Johnny Muhammed. Crips! They're spending our money on wanding dangerous 60 year old grandmothers flying from NY to Miami, they've got no resources for property crime.
Re:issue? by WhiteWolf666 · 2004-03-07 06:54 · Score: 4, Funny

I feel your pain.

To be honest, I feel like the 'us poor scmucks' need to start investing in our own security ;-)

Less insurance payments, more car alarms+electrostatic armor plating *evil grin*

Police won't catch the crooks? My ShockMaster 2000 will fry them dead :)

--
WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
Re:issue? by Sigma+7 · 2004-03-07 07:00 · Score: 2, Insightful

Do what I just did, write an e-mail to EB Games and inform them that you find their business practices unsavory
Does the practices of a single franchise represent the entire chain? If so, then you can send the mail with a clear conscience. Otherwise, you are just punishing random companies that have no relation to the incident.

You should be able to easily find EB Games stores that have a better respect of the law than this small incident, whom are willing to put an item on reserve if the legal ownership of the product is in dispute. (Other methods are also available, such as giving store credit instead of cash - when the products are determined to be stolen, the credit gets revoked. )
Re:issue? by nomadic · 2004-03-07 07:02 · Score: 2, Informative

I don't think they'd qualify as pawn brokers. And in general under both Florida common law and statute (Brown v. Ring 450 So.2d 1245 and Florida statute 672.43 if anyone's interested) a thief cannot transfer title to a purchaser.
Re:issue? by protogoogoo69 · 2004-03-07 07:11 · Score: 2, Insightful

Its an issue because of the absurdity. Absurdity is news in case you havent heard. ;)

But are they *that* hard up for money that they cannot refund her for purchasing stolen goods from them? (NO) I would say stolen goods count as a fair 30-day return policy, but I'm not familiar with their return policies. Then, after refund, they could return the stolen goods, or whats left of them, to (her) the rightful owner or at least the police. Aside from them breaking state law, why is this so hard? Even if their return policy does not include a clause for stolen goods, its good for PR and karma just to take them back since she's obviously not satisfied with her purchase.

By insisting that her purchase was legit, they have not only broken the 15-day hold law, but have also ripped her off. And now they KNOW they did and yet they still maintain this. Although, considering the issues surrounding Florida's 1996 Pawnbroking Act, it would seem this kind of thing happens often in Florida and/or the "pawn shops" strike a fine line near anarchy. If there is a strong correlation between the increase in pawn shops disobeying proper protocol (or "communication breakdown", as one EB spokesman puts it) and theft, then this should be issue, indeed. The burglar, who was just trying to pay the rent, even said he chose EB because of their lazy procedures.....hmm.

--
...small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri...
Re:issue? by base3 · 2004-03-07 07:12 · Score: 2, Insightful

It is the duty of a franchise to uphold the good name of the franchise for the franchisees, as the practices of one franchise do represent the entire chain.

--
One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.
Re:issue? by Dolphinzilla · 2004-03-07 07:17 · Score: 2, Interesting

Does the practices of a single franchise represent the entire chain? Of Course not - but hopefully the the corporate parent can exert pressure on the franchise store to make it right with the customer - At the very least the EB Games Corporate Headquarters may decide to reimburse the abused customer to promote goodwill and hoepfully they would talk to the franchise owner about how to better manage the EB franchise and prevent this from happening again.
Re:issue? by rollingcalf · 2004-03-07 07:25 · Score: 4, Insightful

"Does the practices of a single franchise represent the entire chain?"

Not necessarily, but when the managers who control the chain do nothing to correct the rogue actions of a franchise, the practices then become representative of the entire chain. Better to do business with another chain or small shop that doesn't engage in such shady dealings (or at least those not known to be shady).

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---------
There is inferior bacteria on the interior of your posterior.
Re:issue? by AntiTuX · 2004-03-07 07:27 · Score: 4, Interesting

I had the same thing happen, myself.

Mine was cable television equipment though. 5 scientific america boxes, to be exact.

Anyhow, they caught the dumbass, who tried to plug in the stolen boxes to see if they worked. Cox can tell you exactly where those boxes are on the network down to the tap port, then all you need is to look at the tag and see which house the line goes to.

Anyhow, in the end, the cops didn't do shit to help me get my stuff back. Cox did though.
Re:issue? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-07 08:27 · Score: 2, Informative

Insurance company was no help either? Played "let's demand proof for everything" - and when proof was provided, claimed to lose forms, require reapplication, and then "mistakenly" closed my case twice. Never got paid a cent, though they indicated I had a claim. Recourse? File complaint with state insurance regulators. (Hint: their address is /dev/null).
Fucking insurance scum. A carpenter friend of mine had all the tools stolen out of his truck box. Because the stolen items were "tools of his trade" they were not insured -- they should have been on a separate rider. Had he been an accountant, the same tools would have been covered. He dropped the company and told the salesman for his next company to make sure he was fully insured for everything, no matter the cost, and that, if he were ever denied a claim on such chicken shit grounds, he'd hunt the salesman down and hold him very physically responsible.
Re:issue? by bleh-of-the-huns · 2004-03-07 08:38 · Score: 3, Informative

I was not talking about the items that were already sold by EB, I was talking about the items EB had in their posession, the items already sold there is little that can be done, except a good faith gesture by EB to replace said items, or cover the replacement costs.

All items still in EB's posession could however be seized

--
I came, I conquered, I coredumped
Re:issue? by canadian_right · 2004-03-07 08:47 · Score: 4, Interesting

In this case the police already have a confession from the thief - how much more proof do they need?
Where I (BC, Canada) live if the police have arrested the thief and have a confession they will go get the stolen goods and return them to the owner, if the owner is known. If they don't know the owner they still take the goods as possesion of stolen property is against the law - and selling goods known to be stolen is also illegal. The store would be completely out for the money paid for the stolen goods unless they sue the thief.
A local guy paid over $30,000 for a newish car from a car dealership, the police discovered the car was stolen and took the car, returning it to the owner. The dealership had done all the correct paperwork before selling so the guy was out $30,000. The true owner of the car automatically got his car back with the police's help.
I find it hard to believe that the Florida police in this case didn't just march down to EB, recover the stolen goods (for evidence at least!) then return the goods to the legal owner.
If this had happened where I live EB would have had no choice but to return the games.

--
Anarchists never rule
Re:issue? by TCaptain · 2004-03-07 08:49 · Score: 2, Interesting

I hear you.

I just got broken into THIS week. Chickensh*t *sshole thieves took computer equipment and some of my SO's sentimental stuff. Could have been worse (about 5Gs worth), they got interrupted.

The police did NOTHING. Even though we had items dropped that only the punks could have touched, they wouldn't look at them or print them.

Their response..."we don't investigate stuff like this...if we did that, we'd never go home at night!"

Oh boohoo! So I said "basically you're saying its ok they get away with this..."

Answer: "Yup, unless someone catches them in the act or we catch them doing something bigger, we won't look for them, talk to your insurance"

I've done the local pawnshops and been told to get lost...

I'm talking to an insurance "auditor" next week...I can't wait to see how THAT goes.

I wonder why I pay taxes, cuz I sure don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth

--
"I'm not a procrastinator, I'm temporally challenged"
Re:issue? by canadian_right · 2004-03-07 08:51 · Score: 2, Informative

This is NOT true in Canada. No matter what the circumstances, if you buy stolen goods, once it is discovered that they are stolen the goods are RETURNED TO THE LEGAL OWNER. What you cannot do is try to recover your money from the person who sold you the stolen goods if they sold them in good faith. So whoever posseses the goods, the end of the chain, is 'left holding the bag' once the legal owner is discovered.

--
Anarchists never rule
Re:issue? by canadian_right · 2004-03-07 08:54 · Score: 2, Insightful

Sounds like you should vote to raise taxes and hire some more police.
We have the same problem with the police not investigating all property crimes, but it isn't quite that bad yet.

--
Anarchists never rule
Re:issue? by Prof.+Pi · 2004-03-07 09:08 · Score: 2, Insightful

... people could devise a scheme like that selling their "stolen" goods and then getting them back for free; even if they confessed to "stealing."
How would that be different from any of the other scams people try, like torching their own buildings and collecting the insurance? I'm sure it would be covered by existing laws, such as "filing false police reports."
Re:issue? by Mr.+Slippery · 2004-03-07 09:10 · Score: 5, Insightful

Sounds like you should vote to raise taxes and hire some more police.

Hmm. There's an old cliche that "A conservative is a liberal who's been mugged." (And, "A liberal is a conservative who's been arrested.")
But when the one of the "let's cut taxes!" brand of conservative suddenly finds not enough cops to track down the guy who burgled his house (or worse yet, not enough firefighters to come extinguish his house-b-que, or EMTs to come jumpstart his dad's failing heart)...yeah, you just might see a tax (and service) cutter switch to a tax-and-spend liberal.
(Of course, they might just become one of the new "borrow and spend" conservatives that have become popular lately; "don't tax us, our kids will pay for it." Grand.)

--
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
Re:issue? by CrazyDuke · 2004-03-07 09:14 · Score: 3, Interesting

Problem: if you have a gun and the thief is unarmed you are the one they send to pound me in the ass prison. Even if they are armed you have to be SURE they are going to physically hurt you or your family or you are required to just watch them walk off with your shit. Touch them and you get charged with assault. Set traps and that is a another whole world of shit altogether. And lets not forget YOU are held liable if the thieves steal your gun and then use it in a crime.

--
Any sufficiently advanced influence is indistinguishable from control.
Re:issue? by cpex · 2004-03-07 10:50 · Score: 3, Interesting

My wife had her car stolen. Of course we reported it to the police. A couple days later we get a call they had found the car abandoned on the roadway and the car had been impounded and we had to go pick it up and pay all the impound fees as well as a police service fee of like a hundred dollars. And of course the cd deck, cd changer and all the speakers were gone. I think it would be more worth while to have a cell phone in your car hooked up to gps and just give it a call when your car goes missing and deal with it yourself.
Re:issue? by deinol · 2004-03-07 10:58 · Score: 5, Interesting

Stores do this all the time. I had a similar circumstance where I had loaned a friend a large quantity of books. Then I was gone for a few months during the summer. When I got back, I found out that they had sold the books to a used book store in order to pay the rent. They had thought I had moved away for good or something. The book store in question refused to return the books, claiming I had no proof they were mine, despite my name being clearly written in, then marked over (but still legible) in each of the books. 75% had already been sold.

The police couldn't do anything until I pressed charges against the person who stole them. Then they came in and seized the remaining books. 6 months later, they were returned to me.

Suffice it to say, I'm not really friends with that person anymore. But, they did admit to it, and were willing to give the store the money back to get the books back. But the store wouldn't even do that. They wanted to sell them for full price. The remaining books would have cost more than the entire lot was purchased at by the store. In the end, I was more upset with the store than the person. I still won't return to that book store.

--
Got Apathy?
Re:issue? by rhombic · 2004-03-07 10:59 · Score: 3, Insightful

I live in the People's Republic of California, and I pay considerably more than my parents do in local taxes (property taxes higher, more than 1c higher sales tax, higher state income tax).

In my parent's town (small town Kansas), stuff like this gets hunted down. In San Diego, you've pretty much got to get shot to get the local cops out of their offices (unless, of course, you're speeding or something). We just pretty much accept that the local cops are worthless, and get on with our lives. Higher taxes aren't the answer-- revising the various levels of civil service so that the competant got raises, and the incompetent got fired, would be. Ah well. Time to privatize the police as well, I guess...

--

--
1984 was supposed to be a warning, not an instruction manual.
Re:issue? by Mikesch · 2004-03-07 11:02 · Score: 4, Interesting

Seriously.

Someone at the company where I work got his car broken into. This was caught on the security camera. The guy pulls up in a red Toyota pickup, throws a rock through the window and steals everything inside. The license plate on the pickup truck was clearly visible on the security tape. After the tape was turned over to the police they went to the truck owner to investigate. His response: "I loaned it to my daughter's boyfriend." The police didn't even bother to follow up on what should have been an open and shut case. Never investigated the boyfriend, nothing.

Fine, the police don't have a lot of resources, they're underpaid, they have a tough job, they're understaffed, they work long hours. At the same time, they should be counted on to solve the easy crimes even with limited funding and they just won't do it.

From now on, their complaints are falling on deaf ears for me. They can't be counted on to do their jobs even when a case is handed to them. If they won't even make an effort to protect the citizens they're supposed to, why should I make an effort to care whether or not they have decent benefits.

Meanwhile, my dad got a ticket for wearing his seatbelt improperly from the local police(wearing it under his arm instead of over). I feel so much safer now that nasty lawbreakers like my dad have to pay fines for things that don't hurt anyone but himself.
Re:issue? by Zeinfeld · 2004-03-07 11:07 · Score: 2, Informative

Not true in general. If the buyer bought the goods "in good faith" then they cannot be required to return them.
Unless Florida has decided to pass a different statute (unlikely) the position in English Common law is that the goods bellong to the original owner (except in four peculiar exceptions that certainly would not apply here).
Once EB became aware that the goods were stolen and then sold them EB were arguably guilty of receiving stolen goods. There could also be a claim for conversion.
This is the sort of thing that any HQ with a clue would tell the franchise to pay up on. It is a really risky proposition that could easily end up with a nasty legal situation.

--
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
Re:issue? by vanillacoke · 2004-03-07 11:36 · Score: 2, Informative

if you watched this weeks chappell show you'll notice the guy robbing the hall where the championship craps game is being held shot a guy in the leg (below the torso) to avoid a attempted murder charge. completely off topic, but on if you wanted to shoot someone fo' stealing your shit....

--
The secret to getting modded up is to allways say i've got karma to burn in your sig..
Re:issue? by Guppy06 · 2004-03-07 11:47 · Score: 2, Funny

"But when the one of the "let's cut taxes!" brand of conservative suddenly finds not enough cops to track down the guy who burgled his house"

Typically, conservatives are more likely to shoot the guy who tried burgling his house.
Re:issue? by TroyFoley · 2004-03-07 11:47 · Score: 2, Funny

Seems like a good time to be a crook or an insurance company.

"In the dictionary, under redundant, it says 'See redundant.'" - Robin Williams

--
After I have received the wisdom of good teaching, I will untiringly teach all people. - The Teachings of Buddha
Re:issue? by rfmobile · 2004-03-07 12:13 · Score: 2, Insightful

Time to privatize the police as well, I guess...
Time for RoboCob!
-rick
Re:issue? by shadowcabbit · 2004-03-07 13:22 · Score: 2, Informative

We don't take items that we even suspect are stolen. In fact, I turned down a nice mp3 player yesterday because I suspected it was stolen. I couldn't prove anything so I couldn't call the police, but I didn't take it either.

Looking at it from the perspective of an employee of EB for a year and a half, that was the precise lesson all four of my managers told me. If it looks, feels, or smells stolen, or even if you're not sure, make up a bullshit excuse and get the punk out of the store. This happened to me about five times during my time; one time the thief even threatened to call the cops on me because I was "discriminating against him" by refusing to take his ten games which coincidentally all were in Blockbuster containers. With the receipt stating the return date (three days prior) also stuck in one of them.

Your best bet for protection? Always right[sic] down serial numbers! It makes it 85% more likely that you will get your property back.

One problem with this-- few video games come with serial numbers anymore. Typically it's only the systems themselves which have s/ns, and even then the computer requires us to track 'em. Nintendo's recently been putting brochures with "redemption codes" in a few of their games, but it's just box spam that isn't attached to the cartridge or disc itself, so it's no good.

So don't go describing EB as a pawn shop. It isn't.

It wasn't, technically. Since now (at least at my local store in Olean, NY) EB can give cash for games, it falls under the category of "pawn shop" (in my admittedly non-lawyer dictionary). Previously EB got around having to have a pawn license by only issuing store credit.

I left EB because I got sick of having to deal with dishonest fucktards. Not ironically, I took a job in phone tech support immediately afterwards. I'm still looking for a new job.

Oh, and don't hate all the EB employees, please. Some of us-- well, maybe 15% of the clerks-- know what we're talking about and aren't actively trying to screw you over. Not all the time, anyway. ([Shadowcabbit] remembers the time he sold a Dreamcast to a grandmother who thought it was a portable game system.)

--
"Why Subscribe?" Good question...
Re:issue? by VargrX · 2004-03-07 14:18 · Score: 2, Informative

Problem: if you have a gun and the thief is unarmed you are the one they send to pound me in the ass prison. Even if they are armed you have to be SURE they are going to physically hurt you or your family or you are required to just watch them walk off with your shit. Touch them and you get charged with assault.
not neccessarily true, it's state/county dependant. I don't know where you live, but I live in Upstate NY, and the county law here on this pretty clearly state's that, basically,
if you are not law-enforcement personnel entering a person's domicile without thier express permission, as soon as you place one foot/hand/appendage into an opening (be it a door, window, etc), that person has the right to take forceful measure's against your entering that property, upto and including the use of firearm's
. I've had my home broken into previously, and the time that I'm referencing, I happened to be home (let my brother borrow the truck). Stupid bastard didn't realize that I was home, at least he didn't until I shot him. The court's didn't penalize me for it, and kinda thanked my for not making another homicide statistic

Set traps and that is a another whole world of shit altogether.
unfortuneatly, it is... but one can alway's dream, can't they..?

And lets not forget YOU are held liable if the thieves steal your gun and then use it in a crime.
alway's, and that's the way it should be. If you are stupid enough to have unsecured firearms laying around without a damn good reason, you deserve what you get. If your paranoid enough to sleep with a firearm that isn't secured, then you should be paranoid enough to be alerted somehow (gut feel, etc) that something is not right in your world, and you are going to need that firearm to correct it, ergo, the bastard that just broke into your home should only be meeting the business end of said firearm.

--
Sometimes people just have to learn and adapt to change, it is one of the requirements of being a living thing.
Re:issue? by cgenman · 2004-03-07 14:31 · Score: 3, Insightful

As a wiser man once pointed out, stealing something does not change ownership. Buying something that was stolen does not make you the owner, as the person you bought the item from has no ownership rights to transfer.

If she could match the serial number on the unit, the woman should rightfully walk out of the store with her playstation. It is her possession every bit as much as if she had bought one from the cashier, and the store being defauded doesn't change that. The only thing that could stop her is if the store needed that as a form of evidence against the perpetrator. However, the store has already expressed a lack of interest in pursuing that avenue.

While Electronics Boutique is notorious for poor magement (pushing pre-orders at the expense of sales, for example), trafficing in stolen merchandise steps over quite a few lines. Somebody's head should roll for this.

--
The ______ Agenda
Re:issue? by droopus · 2004-03-07 14:34 · Score: 2, Informative

Laws differ from state to state. Here are some tidbits from CT.

I have several handguns, including a Glock 19 with an M-6 tac light and laser just for home protection. In my state, I must carry concealed. If someone threatens me outside my home (even on my property) I must attempt a retreat. If the other guy chases me into my home, I can fill him full of very large holes. It's happened here numerous times and the shooter walks away, eventually.

If you are carjacked by someone with a weapon (any weapon), you can pull out your handgun and if he does not immediately exit the vehicle, you can empty your clip into his face. My wife carries a Seecamp for this very reason.

If a robber breaks into my home for any reason I can shoot him, as long as I am damn sure he intended harm or burglary. There is no situation in this state where I have to "watch him walk off with my shit." I would hold him at gunpoint and call 911.

If a person threatens me with imminent, severe physical or deadly force outside my home (on or off my property) I can again, fill the motherfucker full of holes. This is the typical fender-bender scene where one guy gets out with a tire iron and starts running towards the other driver. Pull out your P7, assure him that he is five seconds from death, and he will suddenly calm down and get out his insurance info.

I often wonder what the soccer moms at Stop and Shop would think if they knew the guy comparing prices on ground beef next to them was carrying an H&K P7 loaded with +P+ copper jacketed hollow points.

When I took my safety course a while back, I was told a startling fact: 3 out of ten people on the street in some cities are packing. In 1989 in those same cities, 1 out of 20 was carrying a firearm.

Yeah, Connecticut is a real liberal state. hehe

--
"The pie shall be cut in half and each man shall receive.....death. I'll eat the pie."
Re:issue? by mutewinter · 2004-03-07 15:23 · Score: 2, Interesting

Hmm, read an article the other day where the guy called the police, they said they were understaffed, so he called back and told them that they didn't need to come because he had already shot the intruder -- multiple cops were their in minutes. Too bad I lost the url, funny story.

Its really sad that the best guys in our legal system are too busy making sure than a billionaire doesn't illegally make a couple thousand extra bucks in order to ensure the longevity of their own careers. Unfortunately for these kids, theres also a good chance that they won't even make it to the system -- they'll get shot dead by a homeowner that owns a gun.

These kids need to play more Grand Theft Auto 3.
Re:issue? by silas_moeckel · 2004-03-07 15:27 · Score: 3, Insightful

OK to as much as this is flame bait. Have you ever considered prioitizing cops into real crime aka no more eating doughnuts running a speed trap. That would mean no busiting drug dealers and pimps and concentrating on the harder to catch but more damaging thieves and killers. It's all debatable becuase everybody has different priorities but if your forced to selectivly enforce the law wich I think most cops are made to do on a regular basis then the population should have to decide. Scary concept to line item the budget and it it dosent get vodet in they dont go out of there way to enforce it. Course that wouldbe the people deciding what they need rather then our elected bad or worse government.

--
No sir I dont like it.
Re:issue? by bryanp · 2004-03-07 15:34 · Score: 3, Insightful

Unfortunately for these kids, theres also a good chance that they won't even make it to the system -- they'll get shot dead by a homeowner that owns a gun.

Unfortunately? "Kids?" 17 year old thugs on a B&E and assault? If they end up shot to death in self-defense by some law-abiding legally armed homeowner such as myself that will be a good thing for society as a whole.

Yeah, I'm getting crabby as I get older. Damned kids. *grump*

--
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." Col. Jeff Cooper
Re:issue? by CritterNYC · 2004-03-07 17:26 · Score: 2, Funny

Problem: if you have a gun and the thief is unarmed you are the one they send to pound me in the ass prison. Even if they are armed you have to be SURE they are going to physically hurt you or your family or you are required to just watch them walk off with your shit. Touch them and you get charged with assault. Set traps and that is a another whole world of shit altogether. And lets not forget YOU are held liable if the thieves steal your gun and then use it in a crime.
IANAL, and laws do vary from state to state and country to country, but, in general, you can be sure you are in the clear by yelling the following immediately prior to shooting: IT'S COMING RIGHT FOR US!!

--
Portable versions of Firefox, GIMP, LibreOffice, etc
Re:issue? by geminidomino · 2004-03-07 17:51 · Score: 2, Insightful

Our house is in a fairly new addition to the city we live in (pop. 50,000 or so, but we're a suburb of a much larger city) and we've had shit stolen on three occasions. Each time we called the cops and each time they did nothing. Was I pissed? Fuck no.

Well it's all well and good that YOU don't care about protecting yourself or your property, but you really shouldn't be hurling insults at others because THEY have a problem with some crackheaded punks running off with the possessions they paid good money for. If they have "Better shit to worry about than your guitars" then they need to stop advising people to "refrain from taking the law into thier own hands, leave it to the police." Your logic is the kind of thing that leads to vigilantism.
Re:issue? by geminidomino · 2004-03-07 17:57 · Score: 2, Informative

Does the practices of a single franchise represent the entire chain? If so, then you can send the mail with a clear conscience. Otherwise, you are just punishing random companies that have no relation to the incident.
Several posters, including former employees, have made the point that all EBs are corporate stores, not franchises. So I checked ebholdings.com:
Are there franchise opportunities with Electronics Boutique? All EB stores are company owned and operated and not available as franchise opportunities
The "Franchise" excuse doesn't hold any water. This IS A corporate issue, so there's no waffling out of it.
Re:issue? by zurab · 2004-03-07 18:38 · Score: 2, Informative

Unless Florida has decided to pass a different statute (unlikely) the position in English Common law is that the goods bellong to the original owner (except in four peculiar exceptions that certainly would not apply here).

Yes, it's called UCC 2-403:

2-403. Power to Transfer; Good Faith Purchase of Goods; "Entrusting".

(1) A purchaser of goods acquires all title which his transferor had or had power to transfer except that a purchaser of a limited interest acquires rights only to the extent of the interest purchased. A person with voidable title has power to transfer a good title to a good faith purchaser for value. When goods have been delivered under a transaction of purchase the purchaser has such power even though

(a) the transferor was deceived as to the identity of the purchaser, or

(b) the delivery was in exchange for a check which is later dishonored, or

(c) it was agreed that the transaction was to be a "cash sale", or

(d) the delivery was procured through fraud punishable as larcenous under the criminal law.

(2) Any entrusting of possession of goods to a merchant who deals in goods of that kind gives him power to transfer all rights of the entruster to a buyer in ordinary course of business.

(3) "Entrusting" includes any delivery and any acquiescence in retention of possession regardless of any condition expressed between the parties to the delivery or acquiescence and regardless of whether the procurement of the entrusting or the possessor's disposition of the goods have been such as to be larcenous under the criminal law.

Emphasis mine. Disclaimer: IANAL, so feel free to correct.
Re:issue? by rhombic · 2004-03-07 19:06 · Score: 2

The tax rates in S.D. are higher, dumbass. Per capita, I'm paying more than I would be back in Kansas. Quite a bit more. So is everybody else. So, if San Diego can't figure out how to give me a decent level of police service at the ridiculous tax rates they charge, the folks back home must be fuckin' geniuses to figure out how to give better service for less money. Didn't do too well in math, did you?

--
1984 was supposed to be a warning, not an instruction manual.
Re:issue? by Wolfrider · 2004-03-07 19:46 · Score: 2, Informative

--Switch insurance companies. Similar thing happened to me a couple of years ago, and State Farm went to bat for me. Actually got some money out of the stupid idiot that totalled my car.

--
.
== WolfriderV6 == I'm willing to admit that *I just might* be wrong... Are you??
Re:issue? by Lectrik · 2004-03-07 23:08 · Score: 2, Informative

Mostly OT
We live in North East Florida, so we deal with the same state level laws but different local law enforcement.

We had a B&E once at the house, one of the punk kids down the street. I was out checking on a wounded fox around 9 pm and as I'm walking back toward the house (one disadvantage of 10 acres is that it's 10 acres) I see someone walking up the driveway.

There's realy no excuse for kids to just wander up the drive way, you have to go thru 2 gates one at the street and one in the fence around the area we keep mowed (close to 1/8 of a mile from the street) So I just chill and lean against a tree at the edge of the yard and watch as the person continues toward the house looking around. Once he wasn't looking around as much I circled wide and started to follow him, making sure I kept in the shadows since I caught sight of something long in his right hand. At the time I had on heavy clothing, thick gloves and some basic medical stuff (she had been shot and I had her leg in a splint) so as he was getting closer to the house I started to get closer.

I was standing less than 10 feet from the kid when he smashed one of the bedroom windows, I rushed up and grabbed him by the ankles and pulled him back as he tried to crawl in. He dropped the crowbar as he left the window which hung for a second and then fell on him. That had him out for a few minutes during which I tied his hands and feet with the bandages in my kit. With him temporarilly tied like that I ran into the house and grabbed some rope from the pantry and the portable phone and rushed back out the door.

I called the cops to report an armed breaking and entering in progress and the operator said that a car was on the way. An hour and a half later the cop shows up and asks me why there is a kid bound to the tree by the porch.

I didn't get charged with anything, because i was defending my home from an armed invader. The officer said I probably shouldn't have tied him to the tree though. It's a good thing for him I wasn't carrying something to shoot him with, I realy don't beleive in shooting to wound, having dealt with so many animals that had been shot that way.

I heard later that week they searched the house the kid lived in, there having been quite a few break-ins on the street in the past few months, and they found quite a lot of stolen stuff, up to the point there was a stolen ATV in his garage behind a pile of boxes and a tarp.

Though to get slightly back to the topic at hand:
All the stolen property was seized for evidence, and then afterward returned to the owners.

--
--- As to make my comment seem, by comparison, more intelegent... doodie doodie doodie poop poop poop!
Re:issue? by That's+Unpossible! · 2004-03-08 02:27 · Score: 2, Insightful

As a wiser man once pointed out, stealing something does not change ownership. Buying something that was stolen does not make you the owner, as the person you bought the item from has no ownership rights to transfer.

And as an even wiser man than your wise man once said, "Possession is nine tenths of the law."

--
Ironically, the word ironically is often used incorrectly.

EB isn't exempt from state laws... by LostCluster · 2004-03-07 05:59 · Score: 4, Insightful

It seems like EB's operations in Florida are illegal because under state law they have to hold any used good they buy for 15 days specifically to allow for any such claim of theft to be made. EB clearly sold some of the goods before that time, so they're in trouble.

So, now, the only question is why it's a local TV station pointing this out instead of the local police? EB's used goods operation isn't complying with state law. That's the bigger problem...

Re:EB isn't exempt from state laws... by screwballicus · 2004-03-07 06:13 · Score: 4, Insightful

And so they maintain that their profiting from the illegal sale of stolen goods should be upheld.

I assume there is some applicable hefty fine for their infringing on state law. Their not offering the customer the small amount of money she is owed as a result of their infraction is just mind-boggling.

I have to think this is not an "evil corporation" issue. Evil corporations are perfectly happy to pay small amounts of money to uphold an image of benevolence. I think this is more likely an "incredibly stupid store manager" issue.
Re:EB isn't exempt from state laws... by Monkelectric · 2004-03-07 06:21 · Score: 5, Interesting

I think the reason for the hard line from EB is that they know theft is a HUGE part of their business. Think about what easy money this is, no messy stock, shipping, delays, restocking, just profit and NO LIABILITY.
We don't have any EB stores where I live, but we have KB's and Game Stop, both of which sell used games, and I have to tell you their prices are horrible. Both places price games 5$ under retail. I can't imagine not paying the extra 5$ to get a new copy.

--
Religion is a gateway psychosis. -- Dave Foley
Re:EB isn't exempt from state laws... by CrazyLion · 2004-03-07 06:27 · Score: 3, Insightful

EB used products business deserves serious scrutiny. In my area all EB stores stock comprehensive selection of bootleg DVDs. Moreover, employees are very much aware of the fact that DVDs they sell are bootlegs.
Re:EB isn't exempt from state laws... by NormalVisual · 2004-03-07 06:40 · Score: 2, Funny

Yeah, most sole-props have an "Investor Relations" link on their website. Dumbass.

--
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
Re:EB isn't exempt from state laws... by Monkelectric · 2004-03-07 06:53 · Score: 2, Informative

Wow, are they high quality bootlegs (hard to tell from the original)? Or are they obvious fakes? Its a tough call, but you might want to inform the MPAA. I know the mpaa is unpopular but this is the kind of activity we DO want them pursuing.

--
Religion is a gateway psychosis. -- Dave Foley

Call the police! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-07 05:59 · Score: 3, Insightful

The article mentions her writing letters and going to the store, but never mentions police. If you believe a merchant has stolen goods, call the cops!

Re:Call the police! by LostCluster · 2004-03-07 06:02 · Score: 4, Insightful

The police already should have known where to go to find here stolen goods, they just have to read the thief's own confession...

Dealing in stolen goods? by Zocalo · 2004-03-07 06:00 · Score: 4, Interesting

Wouldn't this make EB themselves liable to prosecution for knowingly dealing in stolen goods? They don't seem to be denying that the goods are stolen from the bit about seeking restitution from the thief, which is pretty much an admission of guilt if that is the case. Anyone know for sure?

--
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!

Re:Dealing in stolen goods? by MikeBabcock · 2004-03-07 06:12 · Score: 2, Informative

Proceeds of a crime is a crime itself in the US and Canada.

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- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Re:Dealing in stolen goods? by Richard_at_work · 2004-03-07 07:07 · Score: 2, Insightful

And what makes me chuckle is that if you gain proceeds through a crime and you do not declare them to the IRS or Inland Revenue (in the UK), not only can you be charged with the crime itself, butyou can be charged with tax evasion. Thats right, for a hooker it is illegal for her or her pimp to live off immoral earnings, but its perfectly ok for the IRS to tax you on those immoral earnings.

Well, by LittleLebowskiUrbanA · 2004-03-07 06:01 · Score: 5, Funny

time to go hock my neighbor's jewelry at EB!

--
This guy is way out there

The hell..? by Lewis+Daggart · 2004-03-07 06:03 · Score: 5, Insightful

So they buy stolen goods without checking. They dont hold it forthe required 15 days. They then refuse to reimburse the person for the goods they illegally sold. They refuse to return the goods (without pay) that they unknowingly receaved through illegal channels. I was under the impression that in a case like this, EB should be returning the goods and seeking restitution from the thief, while the person who's property was stolen gets their goods back from EB. Of course, I'm no lawyer, but that's only common sense.

Re:The hell..? by BCW2 · 2004-03-07 06:10 · Score: 3, Insightful

The sad fact is that common sense and the law have not recognized each other in 50 years. If common sense is not dead in this country, it is barely sustained by life support. This is related to the legal system and justice wich have very little in common anymore. I don't think they are on speaking terms.

EB is wrong in this case twice and will suffer a customer backlash, if it gets the publicity it deserves. The only thing that gets a corporations attention anymore is a big hit in the wallet.

--
Professional Politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem.
Re:The hell..? by pla · 2004-03-07 06:57 · Score: 4, Interesting

EB is wrong in this case twice and will suffer a customer backlash, if it gets the publicity it deserves. The only thing that gets a corporations attention anymore is a big hit in the wallet.

This unfortunately has the potential to help EB's PR, though - It provides free advertising about a fact they cannot legally announce - That they will accept and resell stolen property, and do their damnedest to block any attempts to prove the theft or to restore the stolen property to its rightful owner.

Now, most legit purchasers may find this a tad unsavory, but will just assume it doesn't apply if they only buy new merchandise. Quite a few people, however, will consider this a godsend to getting shady "used" merchandise.

Of course, personally, I don't understand why people even still shop at places like EB. If you know exactly what you want, search for it online. You can usually get it for around half-price compared to local stores, and that before you consider not having to pay sales tax. My most recent example - I bought a few seasons of a popular TV series (won't say what, because I got it as a gift for someone, who reads Slashdot) on DVD. Local retail chains had them for a total of just over $200. Amazon had them for $170. Looking around online, and using two different stores (one had a horrible price on the first season, apparently they used that one as the money maker for the discount on the rest), I managed to get them all for under $120 including shipping.
Re:The hell..? by thefinite · 2004-03-07 07:27 · Score: 2, Informative

That *is also* how the law works. IAALS (I am a law student), and one of the most fundamental principles of property law in the US is that in almost every case, your rights to property are only as good as the rights of the person you got the property from. The exclusions to this rule are very narrow, and EB doesn't even come close. If you buy stolen goods, your rights to the goods are only as good as the theif's, even if you buy the goods not knowing they were stolen.

Even if EB had waited the necessary time to sell the goods, that doesn't mean that EB had the *right* to sell the goods. It just meant that they wouldn't have violated that particular law. EB can sue the thief. The victim can sue both. Although I am sickened by frivolously litigious people, the legal system really does protect people like her. In court, EB would get kicked around for this kind of behavior.

--
Boom Shanka

Well, EB broke at least one law by Raleel · 2004-03-07 06:03 · Score: 5, Insightful

as stated in the article, they didn't hold them for 15 days, specifically designed for preventing this sort of thing.

But isn't there a law on the books about buying stolen goods? I always thought that that was a crime as well.

EB is obviously not looking at the big picture here. They want to recoup the cost of the stuff that they bought. However, a good response here (like giving her her stuff and sucking the loss), is going to win a good customer (this store did the right thing, that's why I purchase from them).

--
-- Who is the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who follows him? --

Re:Well, EB broke at least one law by LostCluster · 2004-03-07 06:08 · Score: 2, Interesting

Yep... the $200 or so profit they made in this transaction is defintely not worth being broadcast on a local TV news "Hall of Shame" segment.
Re:Well, EB broke at least one law by njcoder · 2004-03-07 06:32 · Score: 2, Insightful

Ther'es probably a reason why EB doesn't return the goods. Doing so acknowledges that what they did was wrong. They also set a precedent for how they react to this sort of thing, so that if this sort of thing happens (has happened) to another person they would be obliged to retun the money to the other people as well. Not a legal precedent but it does have bearing.
So, lets consider this. The thief knew he could take it to EB and not worry about it. What Florida should be concerned about is not only getting back this woman's property/compensating for illegaly sold property, but also looking into other similar cases. My bet is that either EB is concerned there might be many more, or already knows there are more based on their reaction in this case... why they're not doing the right thing.

--
Open Source Java DAO Generator

Gee, what a surprise. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-07 06:04 · Score: 3, Insightful

EB has only be stealing from customers figuratively with selling games they pay $20 (in credit, mind you) for back to $47.99. $2 off used instead of new for a $50. Wow, how thoughtful.

Of course, that's provided that you buy new and your "new" game isn't simply a re-shrinked used game being sold as new.

Next up on the list of EB crimes against consumers will be punching you in the face after each purchase, followed by stealing back what you just bought.

Re:Gee, what a surprise. by shadowcabbit · 2004-03-07 13:32 · Score: 2, Funny

When Diablo 2 was hot, EB near where I live had plenty of used copies in just the jewel case, shrink wrapped, with the product key showing. Nice way to jot down and get a legit code for playing a bootleg copy online. I couldn't believe EB was so stupid.

When I worked there, I caught on to that pretty quick and started double-shrinking stuff with "conveniently" placed price tags. My manager complained until I told him why I did it. He still wasn't happy about it until, on my recommendation, he bought a used game (Starcraft) that had been sitting there exposed for about a week and found he couldn't play online because the code was in use. He liked it after that. I did this primarily on the games I liked; some which I thought deserved to be stolen I just left. Who the hell is still buying those damned Deer Hunter games, anyway?

--
"Why Subscribe?" Good question...

EB should be criminally charged by dartmouth05 · 2004-03-07 06:07 · Score: 5, Insightful

EB should be criminally charged for dealing in stolen goods. By violating that 15 day law and by refusing to turn over the stolen goods, EB is no longer acting as a retail store--they are acting as a fence.

Regardless of whether or not EB knew the goods were stolen when they purchased them from the thief, they did not not take reasonable precautions to ensure that they weren't stolen, such as follow the 15 day law.

EB's actions were simply reprehensible, and I, for one, will no longer deal with them.

pawn shops by pneuma_66 · 2004-03-07 06:07 · Score: 4, Interesting

I am pretty sure, that all pawn shops can only buy items, from someone with an id, and they then, must log that. Isn't ebgames essentially a pawn shop in that respect, since they buy items from the general public?

Re:pawn shops by Lewis+Daggart · 2004-03-07 06:09 · Score: 5, Interesting

All the EB's I've been to log the ID of the person, just in case something like this happens. It's possible that this store did not (which would be why the thief thought they would be a safe place)... but that in itself is illegal from what I understand. Sadly, it doesnt matter if they DID log the ID. We already know who the thief was.. EB sinply doesn't care.
Re:pawn shops by bloodrose · 2004-03-07 06:17 · Score: 3, Informative

I've seen quite the opposite here. Most used stores that I have sold games and such to, you walk in, hand them a game, and either take your store credit or cash without ever taking your id out of your wallet. No of course there are the exceptions: Game Stop did require me to show my id to show that I was over the age of 18, but as far as I remember they never logged a piece of information from it.

Similar experience on the reseller side of things by almaon · 2004-03-07 06:08 · Score: 5, Interesting

I work a local Apple retailer, we deal with new and used equipment.

We've had a few break-ins in the past, the owner of our store tried contacting pawn shops in town to ask them to keep an eye out for iBooks/PowerBooks that might show up soon cause of the break-in. What is truely pathetic is that the pawn brokers just hung up as soon as they heard anything about stolen goods. They didn't want to be involved in the slightest. That really made me mad that people out there are allowed to run such a shady business. But that's America for ya, thanks Martha Stewart...

As I mentioned earlier, we deal in used equipment as well. We're able to track S/N through Apple's service site, so we often catch a lot of stolen equipment. If the names don't match up for example, obvious red flag. Other times it just seems like some scam is taking place, especially when the kids that steal these things don't know how to turn em on, what the product name is, don't know the password or username, etc. So we play along with them, claim we just need to take it in back for a few minutes to 'test it out', run the serial number, call the cops and see if it's been reported, if so we have the police come pick them up and return the product to the customer (another reason not to buy mail-order, sometimes the local guys are looking out for you more ways than one).

But even phoning the police on these matters is rediculous, in our city, you have to talk to about 10 different people, none one at the station seems to care. Which is frustrating, they have an attitude that it's not worth getting off their butts to check for a serial number. And yet, every one we've phoned in was reported and was finally returned.

I wish local police would have a website to allow you to look up serial numbers of reported stolen goods, it'd make reselling and buying for the customer a lot safer and ethical. Although I'm sure it's more a legal problem to pull that task off, but still... I can dream of a perfect world still?

I hope they sue EB for this, it's truely bad business.

Not sure about Florida by SyKOStarchild · 2004-03-07 06:08 · Score: 3, Interesting

Though, however I have been in an EB in the state that I live in, where I've seen a guy walk in with a copy of a game I was after - I turned and asked the EB guys if I could pick it up right then and there, and I walked out with the copy of the game. EB isn't a pawn shop, I don't believe it is EB's policy to hold games for a certain amount of days before they can resell them.

Re:Not sure about Florida by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-07 06:23 · Score: 3, Insightful

I don't believe it is EB's policy to hold games for a certain amount of days before they can resell them.

I see, they've chosen to opt out of that law. Do they have a policy on whether they're allowed to keep slaves too?

Me too! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-07 06:11 · Score: 3, Funny

My mountain bike was stolen out of my garage, and it didn't turn up after we filed a police report... so I spent $500 on a new bike. Then, it turned out that "Pawn X Change" had my original bike for sale. They are required to report all serial numbers to Seattle Police Dept, but when they reported the number on my bike, the "accidentally" misread it to the police.

A police investigator doing a random pawn shop round recognized the bike based on the description on the police report. We went to the Pawn X Change and got it back, and told then how disgusted we were that they would intentinally transpose the serial number. About 6 months later, my friends and I made good use of a "5-dozen value pak" of eggs.... Oh, the feeling of satisfaction was superb!

Re:Me too! by Elentar · 2004-03-07 06:45 · Score: 2, Interesting

I obviously don't know your specific pawnshop, but those that I have seen usually are run by people who can't or don't want to fit into a more 'normal' job, such as ex-convicts, handicapped people, people with learning disabilities, or just people who dislike being wave slaves.

Imagine if the owner of your shop is dyslexic. Reading serial numbers all day long is hard enough for anyone, but if you can't even be sure that you're reading them right... on top of that, some guy comes in and yells at you because you have trouble reading, and then six months later your shop is vandalized for no reason.

Sure, it's possible that the pawn shop could have been a front for a fencing operation. But don't you think that that's a little obvious, and that the regular police visits might discourage it? And if there had *not* been any pawn shops for the thief to go to, you wouldn't have gotten your bike back at all. These places expose themselves to the kind of treatment you delivered so that honest people can exchange goods and so that victims have a better chance of finding their stolen items.

-Elentar

--
The wheel it turns, around and around, with an ancient rumbling sound.
Re:Me too! by InfiniteWisdom · 2004-03-07 07:06 · Score: 2, Funny

About 6 months later, my friends and I made good use of a "5-dozen value pak" of eggs...
I hope they were eggs that you bought fresh right after the incident and made good use of after they've been sitting in a warm and humid place for 6 months!

Any state should do by maxarturo · 2004-03-07 06:15 · Score: 2, Informative

I recently sold my laptop on eBay and after a few weeks PayPal contacted me to tell me that the money was stolen and that I had to return the money in full but there was no way to get my laptop back because I (stupidly) sold it to someone who was unverified. Now I imagine that the EB didn't verify their seller either and I can sympathize with them getting screwed but they really should just return the money like I had to.

Seems like a good scam for EB by Dolphinzilla · 2004-03-07 06:15 · Score: 3, Insightful

The theif admitted that he went to EB because they don't do any check on the goods and don't ask questions, In my estimation this amounts to a fencing operation posing as a reputable business. I hope the local law enforcement stings them.

Where else? by boola-boola · 2004-03-07 06:15 · Score: 2, Funny

It's Florida... Remember the 2000 election? "Home of the chads!" What more can I say? ...only in Florida ;)

I for one will be boycotting EB Games until she gets her money back. Their games are overpriced anyways, and usually a lot cheaper at Best Buy, where they don't make a profit on consumer media (they are a staple product used to lure the customers in to buy things like computers and washing machines)

If she's reading.. by Bruha · 2004-03-07 06:16 · Score: 2, Interesting

If the corporate HQ refused to give your money. Sue the shirts off their backs.. maybe then they'll learn to respect the law, and the victims of theft.

Re:Similar experience on the reseller side of thin by LostCluster · 2004-03-07 06:19 · Score: 4, Interesting

Pawn shop owners don't want to hear about possible stolen goods because that can only get them in trouble, they'd rather deal with a stolen good without knowing that it is stolen than do the right thing of turning it in.

There's no punishment for them if they don't realize that its stolen property... so they really want to follow a don't ask, don't tell policy.

Better than sue, BOYCOTT by bangular · 2004-03-07 06:23 · Score: 3, Interesting

In America, big business always wins in the court. As much as it sucks, even if the consumer is 100% right, it's rare a consumer can afford to even take a case to court, let alone pay for a lawyer good enough to win. Sure, we hear about a few cases, but there are thousands we don't hear about.

More effective is a boycott. If EB is going to treat their customers like shit, then we can treat EB like shit. If coperate hq knows about it and the police have been involved and can verify it's her goods, then a boycott is in place. If it were just the one store acting on it's own idiocy that would be bad enough, but HQ made the final decision not to pay her back. That is definatly grounds for a nationwide EB boycott.

Re:Better than sue, BOYCOTT by wfberg · 2004-03-07 06:32 · Score: 3, Insightful

Isn't this what small claims court is for? Seems open and shut enough to me. Not much sense for a business to pursue it further than that, given that a few hunderd bucks in lawyers' fees are easily spent.

Of course, after getting your money back in small claims court, set the cops loose on em for fencing.

--
SCO employee? Check out the bounty

This isn't suprising at all by Dragoon412 · 2004-03-07 06:23 · Score: 5, Interesting

This past holiday season, I was out of work, so I picked up a few hours at the local Gamestop (same company as EBgames), and after dealing with their store policies, I'm honestly suprised this doesn't happen more often.

The entire company is poorly run. They're still using an ancient, convoluted, DOS-based PoS system that appears to pre-date the existance of the company. District and regional managers play slash and burn with a store's allotment of employee hours, and then throw a fit and fire the store managers when secret shoppers complain that the one employee running the store by herself for 8 hours didn't manage to get through the daily 20-some box delivery from UPS. Orders for specific products are placed at a corporate level, not a store level, meaning that it's extremely common for stores to get in a glut of products they already have an excess of, or products they have no floor space for that won't sell anyways (like all their crappy collectibles, figurines, and trading cards). The store I worked at literally had Playstations and Xboxes and Gamecubes stacked up 6 to 8 feet in the employee bathroom for lack of anywhere else to put merchandise.

There's little to no emphasis placed on knowledge of games or gaming, and communication regarding the availability of new products to the store's emplyees is non-existant. Customer's are viewed as if they're some sort of problem, and treated with agreat deal of disrespect. They're routinely lied to and mislead, either out of contempt or ignorance. I've seen employees tell mom's shopping for their kids that Gameboy Advance games work in the old (circa 1990) model Gameboy, and employees routinely tag a Game Informer subscription on to a customer's order after the customer said he didn't want the subscription. I've personally been chewed out by a manager for talking a guy out of buying Halo (for the Xbox) for his kid's PS2. And of course, all this behavior is reinforced because the managers do it, too.

Gamestop/EB is a terrible chain. Seeing how they're run, I'm amazed they manage to stay in business. And seeing that they've ripped off a customer... well, that's a daily occurance.

Re:This isn't suprising at all by damiangerous · 2004-03-07 06:39 · Score: 4, Informative

Gamestop (same company as EBgames)
Gamestop and EBGames are not the same company. EBGames is what Electronics Boutique morphed itself into and Gamestop is the former Funcoland/Software Etc/Babbages. They are, in fact, the last two competing national chains dealing in "preowned" after Gamestop absorbed all those others.
Re:This isn't suprising at all by Grave · 2004-03-07 09:05 · Score: 5, Interesting

I'm sorry, but you're either lying about working for Gamestop or you are just really clueless. As a current employee of Gamestop myself, I can tell you that it should be common knowledge that EB and Gamestop are not the same company. Yes, the POS system is ancient, but you know what? It works.

I don't know what store you worked at, but none of the ones in this district allow any of the ludicrous selling behavior to go on that you described. My manager would chew me out hardcore for forcing a subscription on someone who refused it. And when we don't know the answer to a question, we find out for the customer. We never intentionally mislead a customer. You must have really worked in a seriously messed up store, because that just doesn't happen at any of the local stores.

The reason the PS2/XBOX/Gamecubes are stored in the bathroom is because I believe that's company policy. The bathroom can be locked easily while not preventing access to the back room (which is a pain to get into when it's locked).

In this district, when we have product that isn't moving off the shelves, we ship it to a store that does sell a lot of that product.

As for the subject matter at hand, though, we track the serial numbers of all systems we buy and sell, and while we don't hold merchandise (that wouldn't be very reasonable to do given the volume of trade-ins we get), we do have fairly strict policies regarding suspected stolen merchandise. We get contact information on everyone when they do a trade-in, so in the event of something like this, we could track down the individual and report them to the police. I'm pretty sure EB has the same policy here.
Re:This isn't suprising at all by Alizarin+Erythrosin · 2004-03-07 09:08 · Score: 4, Informative

They're routinely lied to and mislead, either out of contempt or ignorance.

I got "banned" from a Gamestop in Orlando a while back for stopping somebody from being scammed by one of their employees.

It was back when the Dreamcast was dropping in price to $99. It happened on a Sunday, because I went to Best Buy to get one, and they didn't have any of the keyboards left, so we went over to Gaystop to see if they had one. I got to witness an employee telling a father that the price drop didn't take effect until Tuesday.

I spoke up and said that I just bought one at Best Buy for $99, and read many ads that morning in the newspaper for the same price. The father thanked me, flipped off the employee, and walked out, over to Best Buy. I was told I was no longer welcome in that store, which was ok, as that was the first and only time I had ever been there.

--
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world... those who understand binary and those who don't

I just canceled a order with them... by draziw · 2004-03-07 06:27 · Score: 5, Interesting

For Battlefield: Vietnam - Their price was ~4 cents lower vs amazon. In the reason for canceling section I wrote that I didn't want to deal with a company that traffics in stolen goods and charges the victim to get their gear back.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0 00 1AO01Y/draziw

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+1 for low user ID and love for SCO

Re:Relevant laws by sam1am · 2004-03-07 06:29 · Score: 3, Interesting

The relevant laws seem to be Chapter 538 of the Florida Statutes.. (they're actually sort of an interesting read.

(2)When the lawful owner recovers stolen property from a secondhand dealer and the person who sold or pledged the stolen property to the secondhand dealer is convicted of theft, a violation of this section, or dealing in stolen property, the court shall order the defendant to make restitution to the secondhand dealer pursuant to s. 775.089.

- Being that the guy who stole the stuff confessed to the cops, it seems he would have to make restitution to EB.

It doesn't really seem to address the issue of what happens when the stuff is already sold and no longer in posession of the dealer. But it does provide a fill-in-the-blank petition for return of property if the dealer won't return it to you...

Michelle Doganis should find a lawyer (and IANAL, but I play can one on slashdot)

Don't forget the other piece. by khasim · 2004-03-07 06:33 · Score: 4, Insightful

From the article:

"He said that he went in there and took it. He was hard up for money for his rent," Wayne Welsh said. "He took them to EB Games in Gulfview Square Mall and sold them...he said that's where they don't do a check and he can sell them without worrying about the police finding out he stole them."

This isn't a random occurrence. He already knew where to go to sell them without any checks.

That indicates that this store has a history of such deals. It seems that the cops should be doing a lot of digging into that store's previous dealings.

EB should burn in hell. by rrace · 2004-03-07 06:33 · Score: 5, Interesting

EB has been ripping off people for quite some time. For example, recently a friend of my bought castlevania for the ps2 from one of the local eb games here, and despite the salesman pitch to sell it to him used he refused and bought it new, or so he thought. Turns out they pawned off a used copy of the game in a new box. How do they do that? It seems they lift the bottom portion of the case and stick the disc in while not having to remove that silver tag on the top portion that is suppose to indicate the game is new. When he opened the game there were scratches and fingerprints on the disc itself. I don't know if this is illegal but these kinds of underhand tactics won't gain them any sympathy from me, I hope someone takes them to court.

Re:EB should burn in hell. by Grave · 2004-03-07 14:03 · Score: 2, Informative

Are you sure you weren't confusing the process of putting the new disc into the display game box? Because no game store in its right mind is going to leave the disc in the box that's on the shelf. At the Gamestop I work at we still have a lot of boxes stolen from the shelves, despite the fact that there is no disc in them. We can write off the loss of the box/instructions (and we give the customer 10% off), but the company isn't going to accept the theft of a couple hundred titles a month. When putting the discs into their cases, the employees are supposed to be careful about it and ensure that it doesn't get scratched up.

The reason that Gamestop and EB always recommend used games? Simple. At Gamestop, if you don't like the game, or have any problem with it, you have seven days to return it. If it's new, and the package has been opened, your only option is to trade it in then, which is going to leave you mad at us because you won't get nearly what you spent. Well, we told you to buy it used, but you didn't listen. Don't blame us. Sheesh.

You can say that EB and Gamestop rip you off all you want, but these companies exist to make a profit. Would you rather not have the option of buying cheaper games? Would you rather not have the option of trading in titles that you're tired of or don't play anymore?

The reason we only give you $20-25 in store credit when you trade in a game that was just recently released is because if we gave you $35-$40, it becomes little more than a really really cheap 1-month rental. Sure, that's not true for a lot of people, but you know, there's enough people out there who abuse the system like that and hence why we have such policies.

For a bunch of geeks and nerds, I'm surprised more people here don't know how game stores function and turn a profit.

Nope. by stoneymonster · 2004-03-07 06:35 · Score: 2, Informative

Gamestop and eb games are different corporations.
Check their stock symbols.

-C

Duh, what? by autopr0n · 2004-03-07 06:35 · Score: 2, Informative

Did you read the article? The police caught the theif, arrested him, and got a confession saying he sold the stuff at EB. EB even belives this, and dosn't care.

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autopr0n is like, down and stuff.

Re:Duh, what? by canajin56 · 2004-03-07 06:55 · Score: 4, Informative

No, if you get your stuff back, you don't get compensation from the thief! If you buy stolen property, YOU have to sue the theif for restitution. The person who had it stolen is NOT obligated to buy it back and then do the suing themselves. They can and should be charged with possession of stolen property, and trafficing in stolen property.

Regardless of the waiting period issue, the second they knew it was stolen, and tried to sell it anyways, they broke the law and should go to JAIL. No stupid bullshit fines. Throw the clerk and the manager in jail. It's just plain illegal, and there is no way around that.

--
ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI

EB is not a pawnbroker by sam1am · 2004-03-07 06:40 · Score: 5, Informative

Because pawn brokers, which EB would likely claim they are

The Florida Pawnbroking Act, chapter 539 of the Florida Statutes contains the following definitions:

539.001 2 (h)"Pawn" means any advancement of funds on the security of pledged goods on condition that the pledged goods are left in the possession of the pawnbroker for the duration of the pawn and may be redeemed by the pledgor on the terms and conditions contained in this section.
539.001 2 (i)"Pawnbroker" means any person who is engaged in the business of making pawns; who makes a public display containing the term "pawn," "pawnbroker," or "pawnshop" or any derivative thereof; or who publicly displays a sign or symbol historically identified with pawns. A pawnbroker may also engage in the business of purchasing goods which includes consignment and trade.

539.001 3 (a)A person may not engage in business as a pawnbroker unless the person has a valid license issued by the agency. A separate license is required for each pawnshop.

They are more likely covered under Chapter 538: Part 1: Secondhand Dealers.

Pawning indicates that the pawnbroker will hold the material for an agreed-upon time (not less than the state-mandated minimum) to give the seller time to buy it back, with exclusive purchase rights to that original owner. Secondhand dealers are buying it with no promise to sell it back to the original owner...
I'm not a lawyer, but watch me play one on slashdot...

EB is NOT making a profit! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-07 06:42 · Score: 5, Funny

They're simply charging their customary 15% re-robbing fee.

I doubt this is an isolated incident... by JayBlalock · 2004-03-07 06:45 · Score: 4, Informative

The article is rather fuzzy on who said what on EB's side, but it certainly sounds like corporate (or whoever the "spokesman" worked for) was just as uncaring as the store itself.

The truly demented part was EB informing the woman that *she* has to sue the thief for restitution. This appears to be nothing less than a ploy to attempt to de facto rewrite property law in this regard. The onus is on THEM to sue the thief, as he committed fraud in selling them stolen property. And they would win, easily, given the Confession. He would probably just agree to hand over the money rather than even show up in court over it. That they're not taking that route can only suggest that they are attempting to absolve themselves of responsibility, and in the process, alter a few centuries of commonlaw.

And, in the larger scheme, why not? This has to happen all the time. How many people write down the serial numbers of their gaming equipment, just on the off chance it gets stolen and pawned? Given their often-outrageous used prices, they must turn quite a tidy profit nationwide through turning a blind eye to stolen goods. And doing anything that causes them to assume responsibility for the goods would only hurt their profit margins.

So, institute a hands-off policy where they assume no culpability at all, and put all responsibility for legal action upon the person who was stolen from. The number of people who would actually manage to sue them would be comparatively tiny. (especially considering most would just sue in small claims court, and not even dream of launching a multi-year legal fight over a $100 PS2.)

It all makes a rather sad sense.

--
Bush: He's Liberal in all the wrong ways.

EB is a corporation, Poster is a Troll by Gleef · 2004-03-07 06:48 · Score: 3, Informative

Ah, I love "Informative" moderations for posts of wrong information, probably for trolling purposes.

Anonymous Coward trolls:
EB is not a corporation. It is a sole proprietorship. Please do better research next time. Thank you.

Troll bridge, pay troll:

Electronics Boutique Holding Corporation (aka Electronics Boutiqe, EB, EB Games, EB Games Online, EBX) is a publically traded corporation on NASDAQ with the ticker symbol ELBO. For more information, you can look at their corporate site.

A hint, in general, if you see ", Inc." after a company name, that means it's a corporation. All of the "Electronics Boutique, Inc." should have clued you in. Making up that it's a sole propritorship with no evidence (as if anyone would accept the liability problems of a sole proprietorship for a nationwide chain of retail storefronts) is what made this post a troll.

I would have just ignored the troll, except idiot moderators were making it a highly rated troll. Consider this a notice to metamoderators that above "Informative" moderation was unfair.

--

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Open mind, insert foot.

This story is OLD! by Mycroft_514 · 2004-03-07 06:55 · Score: 3, Informative

I saw the action news report, and that was back in January. I thought that this forum was for topical subjects?

As for the Hall of Shame, that happened quickly, and the store refused to give the money back after the hall of shame talked to them. Of course, that is pretty much a pre-requisite for getting on the hall of shame, because if they work it out, then they don't get there.

link to ebgames feedback by celeb8 · 2004-03-07 06:57 · Score: 3, Informative

for what it's worth, here's a direct link to the comments page on their website. let em know what you think?

I see a couple of problems by ThisIsFred · 2004-03-07 06:57 · Score: 3, Informative

I've had my property burgled before. Luckily she got a confession out of the guy, and coupled with EB's breaking of the law, Michelle definitely has the upper hand. I don't think she's persuing this correctly though. Assuming that she has a homeowner's insurance policy, she should total the value of all the stolen items and see if it is worth more than the deductible. She should persue her insurance company for financial restitution, and just ask for justice regarding EB's blatant violation of the law.

I hope her house was locked, so that the thief would have to break and enter to steal the property.

--
Fred

"A fool and his freedom are soon parted"
-RMS

Stolen Stuff by hardburlyboogerman · 2004-03-07 07:05 · Score: 4, Interesting

Here in Kentucky,the actions of EB would get you 3 to 5 in the state pen.(It is a felony.)

"Is it me or has the world gone completely apeshit?"

--
Geek Hillbilly

Let EB know about what you think of their policies by StandardCell · 2004-03-07 07:07 · Score: 4, Insightful

From the EBgames.com website: If you would like to speak to a Customer Service representative for any reason , please call us at 1-877-432-9675. Hours of operation: Open 7 days a week, 8:00 am to midnight EST.

If enough of us call to let them know about what we think of their policies, they might understand the magnitude of their problem. The call's free folks, and so is 5 minutes of your time on a Sunday.

So, protest by Stickney · 2004-03-07 07:09 · Score: 2, Informative

Everyone who thinks that this (meaning the actions of EB) just head on over to www.ebgames.com and send 'em a nice message in their customer service e-mail...

--
...the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

As a Former Funcoland Manager by Cloe_Rose · 2004-03-07 07:11 · Score: 5, Interesting

As some of you may know EB/Babbages and Funcloand stores are all now owned by the Barnes and Nobel group.
If this store is using the model developed by Funco when I was worked for them in Texas the employees were required to get proof of who the person was ( state issues photo ID and if you are under 18 you needed a legal parent or guardian with you who then signed) and the customer was offered in store credit ( much higher $$ per game or to have a check mailed to the address on the picture ID. It sounds like the store manager might have been playing a little loose with the system put in place to differentiate the stores from pawn shops.
I had a situation pretty close to that happen to me in that the kid sold off his families games by bringing in a neighbor who posed as Dad so he could trade in twenty Nintendo games ( dating myself I know) for one super NES game... well grandma comes in the next day just livid at me...I explained the situation to her researched the transaction and asked her who the adult who signed the receipt was....she didn't care that her friend/neighbor enabled the kid to sell his games ..she just wanted to get them back......I handled it differently than the Florida case in that to keep the customer from going any more ballistic we hade the corporate office replace the games that were already sold ( the legend of Zelda) and ate the loss.....we did blacklist the son and neighbor ...

Re:As a Former Funcoland Manager by Dun+Malg · 2004-03-07 09:28 · Score: 2, Interesting

As some of you may know EB/Babbages and Funcloand stores are all now owned by the Barnes and Nobel group.
Babbage's, Funcoland, and Gamestop are owned by Barnes and Noble. Electronics Boutique is part of EB Holdings. You may remember a few years back when EB tried to buy Funcoland, but was outbid by B&N.

--
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.

Similar story, but better results by DunbarTheInept · 2004-03-07 07:12 · Score: 5, Insightful

Some friends of mine recently had a whole shelf of DVD's stolen from their apartment (some of which were expensive imports from Japan). They contacted the police, filed the report, and were told that they should first call around to all the local used disc stores, starting with whichever ones were physically closest to their apartment. If the used disc store is on the up-and-up and wants to avoid legal troubles, they should be able to give them the goods back for free, and then it's *their* job to push things through the legal system to try to get reimbursed by the thief. Thus the legal hassles are offloaded from the original victim of theft to the store that bought the stolen goods, and the original victim walks away from the whole affair and doesn't need to be involved (except perhaps to give testimony as a witness in the event).

The preferred method was to have the victim of the theft do all the 'legwork' and only involve the police if there is some difficulty in getting cooperation.

Well, it worked. They found someone had just sold an alottment of DVD's that exactly matched the list of stolen goods (minus one that the thief apparently kept or lost). The store was cooperative and returned the goods. They had the name of the thief on record (and he'd stupidly used his real ID and real name when selling the goods), and were going to deal with the court case themselves.

That was the last we'd heard of the incident.

It would be a happy ending if it wasn't for the fact that the thief (remember he used his real name) turned out to be a friend we all knew. He knew about the DVD's because he'd been invited over on occasion to watch them. Obviously, this incident was the end of friendly relations with the guy. When my friend called him on the phone, he claimed "Oh, yeah, those DVD's, uhm yeah, some homeless black guy said he just found them and he gave a bunch of them to me. I didn't realize they were yours or I would have given them to you, dude." (Yeah, right - some of those DVD's were really obscure rare items, so there's no way he could fail to notice that that exact combination of DVD's was the same as the ones at his friend's house.)

Some people can be real scum.

But anyway, the point of the story is that this incident is an example of how pawn shops are supposed to work when everything is being done legally and with good intentions, unlike what EB games did.

--

Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.

RTFA - selling back at PROFIT. by dAzED1 · 2004-03-07 07:15 · Score: 3, Insightful

I've seen so many people say crap about them just wanting to recoup their losses. First, they have to do that via the *thief*, not the victim. Second - RTFA:

But when Michelle went back to EB Games to pick up her lost property, she got another shock. EB Games insisted on selling her back her own property for roughly twice as much as they had paid the thief.

You mean chain's previous dealings. by Inoshiro · 2004-03-07 07:22 · Score: 2, Insightful

ELBO, with its stores in the USA, Europe, Canada, etc, doesn't care where games come from, only that they come in at one price and go out at a higher price. It's how they make the lion's share of their money.

Gamestop's the same way. Check it out sometime, they're all like it.

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Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.

I won't be shopping at EB, will you? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-07 07:27 · Score: 5, Interesting

I presume that everyone reading this on Slashdot will pass it on to everyone they know who may have ever done business with EB. I know I did. With a little luck, this could end up costing them huge in lost business. As far as I'm concerned, there's one thing EB could do to redeem themselves. The chain's corporate HQ could sue the franchise holder for damaging the corporate name through his illegal actions. Reimbursing this lady is necessary, but it is no longer enough by itself.

Re:I won't be shopping at EB, will you? by DarkManaX · 2004-03-07 08:11 · Score: 3, Interesting

Well, I will continue to shop there just because I can get cheap used games; a lot more then other places. HQ should do something; probably something along the lines of giving her a new unit plus some extras; always pay back and then some and save face. But EB as a whole is still good; just one store that got too lazy in the way they handled things.
Re:I won't be shopping at EB, will you? by sallen · 2004-03-07 08:40 · Score: 4, Insightful

The chain's corporate HQ could sue the franchise holder for damaging the corporate name through his illegal actions. Reimbursing this lady is necessary, but it is no longer enough by itself.
I would agree reimbursement is not enough. But I think Corporate should go a step further. Instead of suing, they should very publically revoke the franshise agreement. There are generally some pretty strong conditions on tarnishing the brand. If it was 'common knowledge' as the story indicates that this store didn't do checks (making it a common, recurring practice), etc, and then in this case knowingly sold stolen property (back to the original owner), I don't think they'd have any problem terminating their agreement.
Re:I won't be shopping at EB, will you? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-07 10:38 · Score: 2, Funny

I prefer to get my stolen goods from a guy I know that sells them from the back of his pickup. Cheaper prices.
Re:I won't be shopping at EB, will you? by DarkFencer · 2004-03-07 12:22 · Score: 4, Informative

I could be wrong, but I am almost 100% sure that Electronics Boutique is not a franchise operation. Each store is owned by the main company.

So, in otherwords, this is all the companies fault, they can't blame a franchisee. The most they can do is say (if it is the case) that the manager violated company policy.
Re:I won't be shopping at EB, will you? by Allison+Geode · 2004-03-07 13:01 · Score: 2, Interesting

I will, personally, continue shopping at EB, regardless of one franchises illegal actions. I have a friend in my local EB who is always friendly, and the store itself does a lot with the local gaming community: they're organizing a halo tournament right now!

Pedant Time by StarKruzr · 2004-03-07 07:43 · Score: 3, Insightful

In point of fact, it's not the police, exactly, who enforce the court's decision, but the county/city/whatever jurisdiction the court has's Sheriff's Dept.

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+++ATH0

Sound the Troll Bells by superultra · 2004-03-07 08:29 · Score: 4, Insightful

First, Dragoon412 is describing every retail store. During peak periods, for example, "this past holiday season", there's not a retail store anywhere that's backroom is not stocked "6 to 8 feet in the employee bathroom for lack of anywhere else to put merchandise." That's because it was Christmas. 20-box deliveries are normal, but only during Christmas.

Moreover, I can't really think of any retail chain that specifically allows its individual stores to order individual products. Specific ordering on a store level for any chain that buys in bulk is an inventory management nightmare and would come at nothing less than a huge cost, and therefore price, increase.

Why the low emphasis on gaming knowledge? As a former EB assistant manager, I'll tell you. Typically, people who "know about games" don't work. They sit on their asses during paid hours and talk about games with other people you've hired that "know about games." Nine times out of ten, you hire a guy who is "knowledgeable" and you've hired a poor worker. They don't sell. They don't work. They talk about games. They're elist and will, quite undiplomatically, tell customers that the game that customer has brought to the counter "sucks." Give me a good salesperson over a knowledgable gamer any day. That's not to suggest that a good salesperson will not learn about the product she sells. She will. But the ones who write on their application "I know a lot about video games because I've been playing them 5 hours a day since I was five" are not the people you want working in your store, because, simply, they won't work.

In reference both to Dragoon412's comment and to the original article, there is little consistency of quality between any retail chain. I think the EB I worked at was run extremely tightly, with an emphasis on professionalism, politeness, and gaming knowledge. I've been to other EBs where that is definitly not the case, which is just like any other retail chain. They're highly dependent on the personality and drive of the manager. Surprise.

Secondly, as already stated, EB is not the same store as Gamestop. While Babbages/Gamestop - which are all owned by Barnes and Noble - might use DOS still, EB does not use a DOS-based POS. While they are now in the minority, when I worked at EB in the mall I noticed that many other retail stores are still on rudimentory POS. What does that have to do with selling inside the safety period mentioned in the article, or even running a good store? Not a damn thing. A good manager and employees can run a tight, strong, customer-centric store with a pen and a pad (as once nightmaringly demonstrated at my store on a Black Friday).

Yes, you'll find game stores that are run horribly, as the article so acutely demonstrates. You might have to look hard, but what you will eventually also find, though, are hard working people in EB (and presumably Gamestop) who care about their work and their customers. I know I sound like I'm pitching the company line here. Nevertheless, I have as many anti-corporate Steven Morgan jokes as the next guy. Dragoon421's "EB" store and the one in the article are individual stores not indicative of the entire company.

Re:Sound the Troll Bells by jeko · 2004-03-07 11:02 · Score: 2, Insightful

Dragoon421's "EB" store and the one in the article are individual stores not indicative of the entire company.
Actually, they provably are.
If this had been an abberration, then EB heaquarters could have fulfilled their duty by providing the victim with restitution and then some to apologize. A spare gamecube and a handful of games probably would have turned this woman into a fan for life -- at the very least, it would have shown a jury you weren't trying to profit by receiving stolen property. It goes without saying that the punishment against the store manager and franchise owner should have been Draconian to say the least.
Instead, EB headquarters endorsed the local manager's decision to deal in stolen property. Therefore, the crime attaches to them and they should be sitting at the defendant's table.
More importantly, as a man with several children, nieces and nephews, the words "EB" and "thief" have forever been linked in my mind.
Way to go, guys. You took a small local problem and turned it into a national embarrassment. Brilliant.

--
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
Re:Sound the Troll Bells by shadowcabbit · 2004-03-07 13:45 · Score: 2, Informative

I salute you, comrade. I got out about fourteen months ago after very nearly being put on the fast track to management of the store.

I was never terribly fond of Morgan either-- never met the guy myself, but everyone I talked to who had all seemed to say his name like they'd say any other profanity.

[Gamers hired are] elist and will, quite undiplomatically, tell customers that the game that customer has brought to the counter "sucks."

Well, being one of those guys (hired because my answer to "what game systems have you played recently?" was "all of them" followed by naming them, in reverse alphabetical order), I can say that most of the time it was true. I also probably ought to mention that my managers always could count on me for overtime, closing, whatever. I wasn't perfect, mind you, but I knew my stuff and I worked my ass off. So maybe there's a combination of "gamer" and "salesman" out there that'll work. (To be fair-- the only reason I didn't wind up talking all day about games is because a) I never worked with other "gamer"-types and b) the ones I did work with all liked games I wasn't interested in. Oh yeah, and c) by the time I was through working there I was about this close to becoming completely anti-social and going to live on some hill in Tennessee.)

I think the EB I worked at was run extremely tightly, with an emphasis on professionalism, politeness, and gaming knowledge.

Incidentally, which store did you run? I was at the Millcreek Mall in Erie, PA and the Olean Center Mall in Olean, NY. I was about ready to strangle the GameDoctor guy by the end of six months. ^_^

--
"Why Subscribe?" Good question...

Re:Ownership of Stolen Goods by Ironsides · 2004-03-07 08:34 · Score: 2, Interesting

What would have happened if she tried to walk out of the store with her goods and EB tried to stop her? I am currious, they call the police, she presents her side, the cops have to do somthing, but what?

--
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars

RFID would solve all of your problems by John+Harrison · 2004-03-07 09:05 · Score: 5, Insightful

Oddly enough the most demonized techonology on /. would solve the problem nicely. If these items each had an RFID tag on them and the RFID tag had owner info written on it at the time of sale then you could track it back to the original owner easily.

Of course RFID tags are manufactured by Satan himself and there is no legitimate use for them, or at least so say the /. editors.

--
Lasers Controlled Games!

Re:Let EB know about what you think of their polic by Vexinator · 2004-03-07 09:17 · Score: 5, Informative

Good advice, and I took it.
The gist of the conversation went as such:

I explained that I would not be doing further business with them unless they changed this policy, which conflicts with laws designed to protect against the sale of stolen goods.

The EBGames customer service rep put me through to a manager, who mentioned that this particular Florida incident took place over a month ago (the article above has the data Jan 29) and that they had been in contact with Michelle since then and were trying to rectify the situation.

At this point I told them a press release regarding this matter, and any policy changes that occur from it, would be appreciated.

--
"Be afraid to die until you have won some victory for humanity" -Horace Mann

All depends on the area you are in. by Mike+the+Mac+Geek · 2004-03-07 09:25 · Score: 5, Interesting

My house was robbed, and the items traded in at Gamestop.

Luckily, the police were on it fast, got the stuff seized, Gamestop fully cooperated. I been going there ever since.

EB, I used to go there all the time. Never again.

--
-------------------------------------------------- ---- The man, the myth, the something or other.

I wish I was an EB customer... by Suicide+Clown · 2004-03-07 09:29 · Score: 3, Funny

just so I could tell them I was taking my business elsewhere.

--

"I don't know why I bothered to type this in."

Facts facts facts by werdna · 2004-03-07 09:37 · Score: 4, Insightful

It is natural to look to various issues of injustice and argue what the result should be. In practice, a seasoned lawyer will recognize that the devil is always in the details, and that the general hypothetical might well be settled either way. In the absence of a comprehensive understanding of the facts, we are just guessing.

I have learned, from extensive experience, that news reporting as to details is terribly weak. The news gets it right as to the big picture with astonishing frequency, but almost every news article I have seen published with which I had intimate familiarity with the details contains several material errors. In short, don't believe everything you read.

Note, further, that law does not always provide a civil remedy for every bad action of a person or company, even where the conduct of EB may have been a violation or a crime. It is quite possible that EB may be subject to fines or worse, but that the buyer's sole recourse would be against the thief. It may well be that EB may be subject to restitution for various forms of conversion, plus punitive damages. Who knows? The devil is in the details. Without the facts, we'd just be guessing.

hmm... by Sivaram_Velauthapill · 2004-03-07 09:54 · Score: 2, Interesting

I guess Florida has another problem, other than election irregularities ;)

Sivaram Velauthapillai

--
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places ;)

Last time I checked... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-07 10:22 · Score: 2, Insightful

Isn't receiving stolen goods illegal in and of itself? It seems that EB should be in some legal trouble over this alone...

I agree that this would be something worth boycotting EB over. EB has no competitive edge over GameSpot/Babbages/Best Buy/Circuit City/Walmart for game prices anyway (unless you're buying used).

Re:Oh, please. by Hassman · 2004-03-07 11:01 · Score: 2, Insightful

why would I ever buy there? They are overpriced beyond all belief.

--
-Mark
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain.

Similar but better in Australia by mister_tim · 2004-03-07 11:30 · Score: 2, Interesting

A few years ago my appartment was broken in to while my flatmate and I were away over a weekend. Anyway, I had a bunch of CDs and videos stolen, but since I wasn't insured (soon rectified) and didn't think anything could be done, I didn't report it to the police at first. Anyway, after a few days I decided to report it, and they asked for a list of everything that was taken, which I could actually provide, since I kept a spreadsheet with a list of all my CDs. A few days after that a detective called back and asked me to come in to identify and pick up my CDs - basically, the thief had sold them all at the local CD exchange, and I got about 75% of them back. I was quite surprised but very impressed. And because you need to show your drivers license or similar ID in order to sell second hand goods, they could track down the guy.

I don't know what happened to the thief in the end, as they never called me to testify in court or anything, but I was particularly impressed at the good work of the local police. And since then, I've seen the police in the same shop either picking up stolen property, or have seen the shop confiscate a bunch of CDs from someone who was trying to sell them, because they exactly matched a list of stolen items that the police had provided to them.
Another reason I'm glad I live here and not in the USA.

Someone should tell her... by Vthornheart · 2004-03-07 12:11 · Score: 5, Informative

About regulation 538.08 (in the Florida Laws regarding secondhand dealers)

--- 538.08 Stolen goods; petition for return.--

(1) If the secondhand dealer contests the identification or ownership of the property, the person alleging ownership of the property may, provided that a timely report of the theft of the goods was made to the proper authorities, bring an action for replevin in the county or circuit court by petition in substantially the following form:

Plaintiff A. B., sues defendant C. D., and alleges:

1. This is an action to recover possession of personal property in _______________ County, Florida.

2. The description of the property is: (list property) . To the best of plaintiff's knowledge, information, and belief, the value of the property is $_______________.

3. Plaintiff is entitled to the possession of the property under a security agreement dated __________, (year) , a copy of which is attached.

4. To plaintiff's best knowledge, information, and belief, the property is located at ____________________.

5. The property is wrongfully detained by defendant. Defendant came into possession of the property by (describe method of possession) . To plaintiff's best knowledge, information, and belief, defendant detains the property because (give reasons) .

6. The property has not been taken under an execution or attachment against plaintiff's property.

(2) The filing fees shall be waived by the clerk of the court, and the service fees shall be waived by the sheriff. The court shall award the prevailing party attorney's fees and costs. In addition, when the filing party prevails in the replevin action, the court shall order payment of filing fees to the clerk and service fees to the sheriff.

(3) Upon the filing of the petition, the court shall set a hearing to be held at the earliest possible time. Upon the receipt of a petition for a writ by a secondhand dealer, the dealer shall hold the property at issue until the court determines the respective interests of the parties.

(4) In addition to the civil petition for return remedy, the state may file a motion as part of a pending criminal case related to the property. The criminal court has jurisdiction to determine ownership, to order return or other disposition of the property, and to order any appropriate restitution to any person. Such order shall be entered upon hearing after proper notice has been given to the secondhand dealer, the victim, and the defendant in the criminal case. --- Why on EARTH did she pay for something that was hers? The thought must've occurred to her at some point that there was a process (like the one listed above) to get it back without paying. Of course there is. And of course, it adds shady points to EB for taking advantage of her lack of knowledge and trying to score some extra illegal bucks. That's just low.

--
-Vendal Thornheart

RE: insurance, police and stolen goods by King_TJ · 2004-03-07 13:33 · Score: 2, Interesting

I've personally witnessed pretty much the same thing. My roommate had his truck broken into a few months ago, right in front of my house. Not only was his brand new Pioneer MP3 stereo system stolen, but so was his wallet and cellphone.

He actually was able to call his own cellphone and the thief picked up the line! It sounded like he had a number of ringing cellphones in the background, and appeared to be talking from his place. The thief wanted to work out a deal where we'd leave him a few hundred bucks at a pre-arranged drop off site, and he'd "trade" us back for the stolen goods!

(The best we could tell, this guy was going around looking for all the cellphones and other goods he could find in cars, and waiting for people to call their phones so he could "bargain" with them to scam them out of some cold, hard cash too.)

My friend tried to get the guy to agree to meet up with him in person at a local Denny's (and of course, was going to have either local police, or at least a bunch of friends waiting) - but the thief didn't go for it.

Failing to get anywhere that way, he reported the crime to the police - who basically did nothing, despite my roomate being able to log onto his cellphone provider's web site and get a detailed list of calls made that night. (Yes, the thief was actually calling all his friends on the stolen phones and chatting with them!)

He got all his credit cards cancelled, got a new driver's license issued, and of course, had the phone shut off -- but to this day, he never got a thing back. It's obvious the police never even tried, since this was a case practically handed to them, ready to handle as a "no brainer".

Re:not this old urban legend again by Scudsucker · 2004-03-07 13:45 · Score: 2, Interesting

It is simply absurd that McDonnalds is held responsible for 1. the customer lacking the sense to go buy more decent coffee, 2. ignoring senses and repeated warnings of it being hot

So, just to be clear, you are perfectly a-ok with businesses knowingly selling you defective products that can cause serious injury or death? Remember, the lady wasn't scalded, she was burned to the bone.

As individuals, we pay consequences if we knowingly put someone in danger. Reckless or drunken driving comes to mind. But why should businesses be exempt from responsibility? Why don't you go to the homes of those people who's families were killed by faulty Firestone tires and tell them, "See, this is a capitalist country, so rather than suing Ford or Firestone for knowingly putting you at risk, just boycott the companies. That'll teach em!"

In the United States, the courts have found that a business has the same rights that an individual person would. But thanks to our Republican and Libertarian minded friends, regulations are hard to pass or enforce. And now thanks to the gullible and naive buying industry propoganda, companies will be shielded from any kind of meaningful responsibility by so called "tort reform". But tort reform doesn't do a shred of good for consumers, all it does is shield companies from paying for their negligence.

Yes, BATHroom by shadowcabbit · 2004-03-07 13:48 · Score: 2, Funny

Depending on the size of the store, yeah, it can be. During the 'Cube/XBox launch, we had stacks of all three machines in the bathroom piled to the ceiling. This is because our store was about the size of your average hotel room, backroom included.

--
"Why Subscribe?" Good question...

put 2 and 2 together by GunFodder · 2004-03-07 16:30 · Score: 2, Interesting

Maybe the reason they have more cheap used games than other places is that a lot of their stock is stolen? Maybe this indicates a more general problem.

Gotta love FL laws by rs6krox · 2004-03-07 18:09 · Score: 2, Informative

I did a quick scan, but didn't see anyone post this. Forgive me if it's already been said...

Florida pawn brokers have a damn good union. A person whose property is stolen is required to pay the pawn broker to get his stuff back, but usually only what the pawn shop payed the thief. If you know your serial numbers, makes, and models, it's not usually too awfully hard to find your stuff, assuming you can actually get someone to look for it.

We had some lawn equipment go missing repeatedly in Florida. Each time, it showed up in some pawn shop, and the theif got their slap on the wrists. And we were out a couple of hundred bucks. Florida sees it as making sure there is only one victim, of course they're a victim twice. Not only can't you use your stuff because it's missing, but you have to pay someone to get it back. Otherwise, they'd be dealing with both the theft victim, and the pawn shop trying to get their money back seperately. Try getting your cash back from a guy that was so poor he was already stealing your weed whacker to buy pot.

I wish we could do this by DrMorpheus · 2004-03-07 18:22 · Score: 2, Insightful

Because I have similar issues like the parent posters, but it wasn't theft or burglery but assault and attempted murder.

I won't go into the boring details but I've since come to the conclusion that the police are operating on a market economy.

In any market economy you minimize your risks and maximize your income. The police are doing this when they spend most of their time handing out traffic tickets and avoiding burglers, murderers and others.

Traffic tickets are low risk and high income. Going after real criminals means no income and a pretty high level of risk.

The problem is figuring out how to change this without being labeled as "anti-police".

--
Debunking the "59 Deceits"

Re:Boycott by geminidomino · 2004-03-07 19:18 · Score: 2, Funny

I suggested that I would stop spending the $200.00+ that I spend with EB every year if they don't rectify the problem.

Crap, I gotta get a life... I pay that much almost every MONTH between EB/Gamestop.

I'll be shopping at EB, will you? by ElleyKitten · 2004-03-08 05:03 · Score: 2, Interesting

I'll be shopping at EB because I've seen the same thing happen at the Gamestop I used to work at, but that didn't get on Action News. Despite working at Gamestop for a year, and having friends working at other game stores, I've never heard of any store that regularly holds stuff for any lenth of time. My store's policy when someone comes in saying that their stuff was stolen and traded in, we tell them to go to the police, or else we can sell their stuff back at the normal price.

My point is that this happens at all game stores, not just EB. There's no more reason to boycott EB than their is to boycott Gamestop, GameCrazy, or any other place that sells used games. If you buy a used game, you have to know that there's the chance that it was stolen.

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