Make the Debian CDs Better by Installing popcon

JayBonci writes "Not popcorn, popcon! (Short for popularity-contest) According to a recent message posted to debian-devel-announce, popcon numbers are being used to determine how things get arranged on the 13 CDs of the upcoming Debian stable release. Participation so far has been good, but the project could use more numbers from a broader user base. Please take a moment to install the package 'popularity-contest,' and help us make the distro better by allowing it to send us anonymous package usage statistics. You can see the results at Popularity Contest page."

Comments

I have this...

[byolinux]

Here's hoping I can get xbill to the top of the list.

Re:I have this...

[tmillard]

I love xbill. You just shoot tomatotes at Mr. Gates.

It remindes me of a dart game I saw on the Apple OS.

Re:I have this...

[Anonymous Coward]

It says the fact that people have been over Bill. Now they are waiting for someone to come up an xdarl sort of thing.

This is a really good idea

[dealsites]

As a Linux newbie (currently don't have Linux installed, but have used it and plan to install it soon), it would be nice to know which are the most popular packages. Most people would like to have an idea of what the more experienced users use, and thus would like to try it themselves. In addition to knowing the most popular packages, it would probably be a quicker install be having the best ones at the beginning of the installation process instead of having to swap CDs too many times.

--
Real time deal updates from all the major deal sites. Search easy and quickly!

Re:This is a really good idea

[Anonymous Coward]

The most used stuff=the stuff that's installed by default.

else check freshmeat's popularity ranking

Re:This is a really good idea

[ameoba]

The thing about the Debian install process is that you don't need all 13 CDs. After you do the base install, you scan the CDs that you feel like using and they get added to your local list of available packages (be it none, 1,2 or all 13). The first 2 CDs cover most of the stuff that you need to get the system working; by the time you get to the last disc, we're talking about some pretty obscure stuff that only has 3 users (2 of them are the devs and the 3rd is the guy making the package).

This is already a pretty reasonable distibution of files on the first 2 discs (the installer, OTOH still needs a lot of work; the new installer is a bit nicer than the old one but it doesn't really work all the time & there's some inconsistancies in it (like when you're partitioning drives, the drive labels in fdisk aren't the same as the names you see when you're assigning mountpoints to drives (which isn't even able to recognize swap devices as such & call them swap by default))) but it could always be perfected a bit. I have to wonder why they can't extract this from the logs on the mirrors tho...

Re:This is a really good idea

[C10H14N2]

It's pretty easy. 90% of the packages are installed by less, usually FAR less, than half the users. Although, I must admit I found it humorous that the package tracking the usage was installed by less than the total number of users ostensibly reporting.

WTF?

Re:This is a really good idea

[BiggerIsBetter]

Uh, I have never used Tex. And it's installed (and updated) by default by every version of Debian I've tried.

Re:This is a really good idea

[Penguinshit]

Actually, the best way is to just use Disc 1, get the base installation, and then do the rest via network (assuming you're on broadband - I shudder to think what an installation would be like over dialup).

This way you get the latest "stable" (oxymoron, I know) and all of the security updates as well.

I install Debian this way all the time (well, every time I'm doing a fresh installation).

Re:This is a really good idea

[Imperator]

Bad idea. Reasons:

• Debian users might not be representative of Linux users. Certainly not newbies.
• The most popular packages are the ones you don't really have a choice about. (For example, tar.)
• For a newbie, the vast majority of packages are ones that even if you install, you'll never use directly in the way you think of using a program on Windows. (For example, ncurses.)
• Where choices do exist, many people will use an older package out of familiarity and habit. (For example, some people swear that their lives have improved dramatically since they stopped using vixie-cron, but I still use it over the alternatives.)

I encourage you to install Linux, and Debian is a fine distribution for you if you're interested in learning. But don't look at package popularity. If you need help choosing between different packages that do the same thing, there are better places to look.

Re:This is a really good idea

[fracex]

One time I was planning on doing a network install, after installing the first cd, over dial-up. Unfortunantly I could not get the modem driver to work no matter what. On second though maybe it was for the better.

Re:This is a really good idea

[zerocool^]

Actually, the best way is to just use Disc 1, get the base installation, and then do the rest via network (assuming you're on broadband - I shudder to think what an installation would be like over dialup).


Where I work, we have a local 100Mbit Debian stable mirror. When ever we install debian on a customer's machine, or one of our own, we obviously set the apt-sources to use the local. It's usually faster than installing off of multiple CD's (all I've ever seen is debian CD1, I wasn't even aware that there were 13 of them). Interesting to think that, for a lot of things, a 48x cdrom is slower than ethernet... but whatever. Plus we get lots of "Hey, what the heck mirror am I using, it's fast!?!?", and it makes us smile.

HTTP is the way to go for local mirrors, by the way, especially when getting multiple packages (like, say, "base system"?). That is, you're using vsftp, because you obviously care about security, and you're also too lazy to set up something that tells vsftp (or is it xinetd) to shut up, no that's not someone DDoSing the connection, those are real transfers. And by you, I mean me.

~Will

Re:This is a really good idea

[lspd]

Actually, the best way is to just use Disc 1, get the base installation, and then do the rest via network (assuming you're on broadband - I shudder to think what an installation would be like over dialup).

When you can get a DVD+-R to work in another computer, the DVD's (1 for stable, 2 for testing or unstable) are quite nice. If you have hard-drive space to burn you can also grab the ISO's and mount them using loopback devices.

Re:This is a really good idea

[martin-boundary]

Maybe one of the package's source code contributors is a Diebold employee?

Re:This is a really good idea

[alienmole]

I have a Debian server rented at a hosting company that gets 30Mbps actual throughput to various Debian mirrors and other download sites. Who needs a local mirror, all you need are fat pipes! ;)

Re:This is a really good idea

[deinol]

How does it determine popularity?

Does it actually look at what gets used, or just what is installed?

I have 357 packages installed on my debian machine. Most of those are just there due to my distribution's base install. I was lazy and used knoppix. I don't even use X on that system.

Now, the packages I actually use on it are:

vi
gcc
perl
exim
ssh
nethack
apache
wuftp
samba
ices
icecast

I'm sure there are a few others, but that is about it really.

So does it take actually usage into consideration, or just the fact that it is installed?

Re:This is a really good idea

[gujo-odori]

I use KDE and vi, and think Gnome was a lot better back in the days when Enlightenment was the usual window manager (never liked Sawfish), but why was this modded Flamebait?

Now, I don't much care for Gnome and if I thought it was important to change his mind (it's not; I think it's important that he use whatever works best for him) I could rattle off a bunch of reasons why (IMO) KDE is better. However, the fact that I disagree with him doesn't make his opinion flamebait.

Oh, wait, sorry. I forgot where I was. "Flamebait" and "troll" both mean "Something I personally disagree with."

Never mind :-)

13 CD's!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not just make 2 DVD's?

Re:13 CD's!?

[tloh]

There are many boxes, particularly older hardware, which does not have a DVD-ROM drive.

Re:13 CD's!?

[raindown]

I asked myself this question when buying Unreal Tournament 2004 the other day and when the employee of the store told me they didn't receive any of the Special Edition DVD version. I was kind of baffled as to why they didn't make it a DVD only release, but it kind of makes sense to me.. It's not entirely safe to assume that that many people have DVD-ROMs, at least from a manufacturing perspective. I think that when you register the game you can send your system specs in thus allowing th company to know... Sorry for getting kind of off-topic but the same concept stands true in this case I think. Think of how many people have cd-burners compared to dvd-burners? Probably a big ratio.. so it makes more sense to put everything on a format that almost everyone has access to. (Note: ALMOST)

Re:13 CD's!?

[gabebear]

I think Debian is still the only OS you can download DVDs for.

You have to use jigdo, and you can't use Windows to download the image, but it's there.

Re:13 CD's!?

[tepples]

[DVD-ROM drives] are so cheap now

My grandma's computer has a CD-RW and does not have a second front-accessible drive bay to add a DVD-ROM. New cases for Dell motherboards are not necessarily "so cheap now."

It's a failure.

[Mr. Darl McBride]

I hate to point it out, but the first kernel-image is in 2794th place.

Re:It's a failure.

[arduous]

By default, Debian doesn't install a package for the kernel, just the kernel itself. Many people leave it with the default kernel that it is installed, local root expoits and all.

Those who do update the kernel, again probably bypass the debian packages and roll their own kernel to suit their needs.

Then there is the third group of people will just "apt-get install kernel-image-2.4.18-1-686", and let the magic happen.

However, everyone (almost) has the adduser package installed.

Re:It's a failure.

[qtp]

That's because there are several different kernel-image packages tailored for different purposes (archetecture, processor-type, special use, etc), plus many Debian people build their own custom kernel-image packages using the kernel-package package (251st place).

And this

[JoeBaldwin]

Is when using Debian to install gnaughty bites you in the ass.

I just installed with the Beta 3 installer

[cyber_rigger]

The automatic hardware detection is nice.

http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/

Someone has to say it..

[3DKnight]

I would still go with Popcorn.. at least their kernels taste better!

oh, i kill me...

Re:If this were TIVO

[byolinux]

This is Debian - the sources are there, you can see for yourself what it's really doing.

I don't trust it.

[Mr. Darl McBride]

The results are rigged!!!

emacs: (emacsen-common) -- 317th place
vi: (nvi) -- 208th place

I'd sooner believe we awarded Bush the popular vote!

Re:If this were TIVO

[El]

Voluntarily giving up your privacy with fully informed consent is much different then sneaking in spyware without telling you about it. Those that are paranoid about privacy simply won't install it.

Partial list of most popular apps...

[cliffiecee]

gawk
talk
date
wine
grep
unzip
strip
touch
finger
mount
fsck
more
yes
eject
umount
sl eep

(Stop groaning. Someone had to do it.)

Let the flames start

[r00zky]

Current popularity rankings:

vi (287) beats emacs (317) :)
gnome (333) beats kde (586) :(
linux (251) beats hurd (13608) :o
lynx (281) beats mozilla (378) :????

Re:Let the flames start

[Atzanteol]

lynx (281) beats mozilla (378) :????

Not terribly surprising. I install it on all my machines (even the headless ones) for testing purposes. But only Mozilla only on my 'desktop' box.

popularity contest package

[MrWim]

The package popularity-contest is 42nd on the list with 18 less installs than the top packages, so how did these 18 people submit thier scores to the popularity contest?

vi/vim vs. emacs

[Peaker]

When comparing the popularity of the two, do not forget that vi is fairly standard and that vim is fairly small.

This means that whoever uses emacs should have no problem also installing vi/vim, while those who use vi/vim wouldn't typically install emacs/xemacs, which are much larger.

Security...

[dysprosia]

Since it's using e-mail (don't know about encryption or methods of encoding), wouldn't it be rather simple to pervert the statistics in order to promote some software? A mass-mailing would be obvious, but if it's done properly it may look convincing...

Slightly OT

[Trashman]

In case people are reading this and think it's cool and want to try Debian out. I suggest they read this page before they go looking for ISO's to burn.

The Official Debian installer is one the things people heavily judge the distro by.

Will Debian actually release a new STABLE?

[MickLinux]

I was waiting for a new Stable version after Woody, I guess, 2 years ago. Eventually, I sortof gave up.

This article seems to imply that such a release is actually going to happen.

Is it?

Re:Will Debian actually release a new STABLE?

[bfree]

Debian will release the next STABLE version when it's ready, always their answer. You can think of debian stable as having always done the sort of stuff RedHat, Mandrake and Suse are all looking to do now, build long term releases not "forcing" full system upgrades every few months. That all being said even Debian are hoping to speed up the release process, the next release will be the first release to come out of testing and is ironing out the kinks in that system. Also, it is moving rapidly towards a release. Debian-installer is now usable (for certain values of usable) on 6 platforms and the release critical bugs are dropping down to where a release should be quickly achievable (once all the main pieces are in place). I would be surprised if debian doesn't release before the Autumn (I'd guess June/July).

As the other reply to your post pointed out though, if stable doesn't do you testing (or even unstable) should do it!

Re:If this were TIVO

[GarfBond]

Except, the obvious difference being is that your participation is being solicited and completely voluntary at this point. With TiVo, you're not really getting an option to opt out, even if they are pretty clear about what they're doing.

I vote no!

[UrGeek]

Bad idea. Doing the most popular thang is far and different from doing the right thang in many case. As Robert Plant put it, "I am not a prisoner of your hit parade". DESIGN NOT POLLING!

Re:13 CDS???

[reaper20]

There is also a ~30MB business-card netinstall that does the same thing.

Re:If this were TIVO

[Imperator]

Yes, you are a troll. This is an optional package that people can choose to install. It's open source, and the use of the data is also completely in the open. It's not an invasion of privacy when someone wants to give you data and explicitly gives it to you.

Re:If this were TIVO

[fliplap]

Debian is free. I pay for the hardware. They give me free software, source code, documentation and updates, services and they don't even profit from the hardware

If I could send anonymous view habits to Tivo in exchange for free service I WOULD.

Re:uhm

[mabinogi]

Because with windows you get NOTHING.

You get an operating system, a windowing system, a media player, a web browser and email client, a SMB client and server, and some small utilities and games.

The 13CDs of Debian contain almost every known piece of software that meets the DFSG and someone can be bothered packaging. And yet the smallest Debian install is still far smaller than the smallest Windows install.

Some questions and a suggestion.

[eddy]

Will I get a CC of what is sent out?

Also, wouldn't it be a good idea to ask the user on installation of popcon if this is a "desktop-" or "server-type" install of debian, and tag the data with that? That way we could have (beyond split statistics) jigdo/people compiling well composed CDs for those two different purposes. I'm guessing the software layout could be significantly different.

I guess you could infer the type from the data itself, but...

And no, I haven't RTFM. Yet.

Re:Not "popcorn"?

[polymath69]

I was hoping to read how to get popcorn from the kernel.

Popcorn comes from kernels. Just place 'em on your Athlon.

Architectures: "Unknown" Holds #2

[cmholm]

I'm one of the small number of folks running Debian on an old Powermac, so I'm glad for the log scale on the architectures plot to help pull "my" group out of the noise. It bothers me that a very large fraction come up as architecture "unknown". I don't see a "--mind-your-own-damn-business" flag in the manpage, so what's with that?

Re:Architectures: "Unknown" Holds #2

[Tri]

Unknown means they are running popcon from woody, rather than sarge/sid. The older version of popcon did not send architecture data, while the newer one does.

Re:If this were TIVO

[mistered]

Not only do you have to install it, but before it will do anything it gives a description of what it does, and then asks if you want to participate, with a default of no.

You can have your system anonymously e-mail the Debian developers with statistics about your most used Debian packages.

This information helps us make decisions such as which packages should go on the first Debian CD. Also, we can improve future versions of Debian so that the most popular packages are the ones which are installed automatically for new users.

If you choose to participate, the automatic submission script will run once every week automatically, e-mailing statistics to the Debian developers.

You can always change your mind after making this decision: "dpkg-reconfigure popularity-contest"

Re:Mod parent UP!!!

[lspd]

It's a whopping huge deficiency in Debian's installation as a large number of people will assume that if they are able to boot then they have a kernel package installed and *MORE SERIOUSLY* that apt-get update/upgrade will install kernel security updates as they come along!

It's a known bug in the Woody installer and is fixed in the Sarge installer. Obviously a kernel is installed. The problem is that dpkg doesn't about it. You can fix the problem by installing the same kernel over itself if you're happy with the default 2.4 or 2.2 kernel.

Some recent discussion of the problem.

Re:Wait a minute...

[Anonymous Coward]

Er, popularity-contest isn't installed by default. And even when I user installs it they get a blurb saying what the program does and the choice on whether or not to participate.

Um...

[msimm]

Yes. You see commercial organizations do it all the time, some of it bugs us (spyware/adware/webbugs/cross-site cookies), but a lot of it doesn't (Neilson ratings/consumer surveys/warrenty questionaires). I think we all know that to design a good product you need to listen to your consumer base.

In fact this has been one of the big pieces that has been missing with Linux distro's. We throw as many applications into them as we can, having no accurate idea whats being used and whats just in the way. This is sort of a break-through when you think about it and I applaud the Debian's refeshingly long-sightedness.

Add to that that this is a open source project (under the GPL and written in perl) and you end up with a true rarity, an honest (and auditable) marketing tool. Don't like it? Don't install it.

This looks to me like a usefull tool in the fight for increased usability. OS hackers may not be able to do the tele polls and the in-mall customer questionaires, but they sure as hell can figure out how to get that information. And we sort of owe it to then to tell them a little something about the products they spend so much time (and care) working on for us.

Just my $.02.

Good idea reasons...

[msimm]

I agree with the above poster, but why this needs to catch on:

1) We currently have a 0 feedback model for most distro (said distros forum and Slashdot aside).
2) It WILL tell the developers of a distro a bit about how their distro is being used (lots of data, the deeper they dig the more they learn).
3) Other distros need to see this as a *requirement*. Popularity-popusmearity, this is customer feed-back! Guess how many times I've been asked how I use my favorite flavor of Linux over the past 5 years?

I think Debian has hit a little bit of gold here and I hope to see it expand to other distros. These guys work hard to write 100's of useful apps and compile them into a useful operating environment, more information can only help that process so I'm into it.

I feel like

[Tsiangkun]

if microsoft said they were bundling a software tracking system to their products people would flip out. I think people would be right to get upset at someone else telling you what you are going to be sharing. This is a Linux dtstribution saying -->HERE-- is a program that might let us track popular software installations. . . Install it if you want to. That 'if you want to' part is what makes this acceptable to me. --Tsiangkun

Vi gets isntalled more, but emacs gets used more

[ace123]

#rank name . , . , . inst vote old recent no-files
208 . nvi . . , . . ,1817 597. 1125 95. . 0
317 . emacsen-common.1558 996. 255 .54. . 253
odumblamenessfilteroooo ---^

Yes, vi gets more installations, but approximately 2/3 of them are marked as old.

Only 1/3 of the people, or 597 people actually use vi.

For emacs, a mere 1/6 of them are old and 2/3 of the people, or 996 people use it.