Make the Debian CDs Better by Installing popcon

JayBonci writes "Not popcorn, popcon! (Short for popularity-contest) According to a recent message posted to debian-devel-announce, popcon numbers are being used to determine how things get arranged on the 13 CDs of the upcoming Debian stable release. Participation so far has been good, but the project could use more numbers from a broader user base. Please take a moment to install the package 'popularity-contest,' and help us make the distro better by allowing it to send us anonymous package usage statistics. You can see the results at Popularity Contest page."

Comments

I have this...

[byolinux]

Here's hoping I can get xbill to the top of the list.

Re:I have this...

[tmillard]

I love xbill. You just shoot tomatotes at Mr. Gates.

It remindes me of a dart game I saw on the Apple OS.

Re:I have this...

[Anonymous Coward]

It says the fact that people have been over Bill. Now they are waiting for someone to come up an xdarl sort of thing.

Re:I have this...

[T-Ranger]

Except that everything starts out as Linux, and Darl walks around taking them down. Hmm.. The Anti-XBill.

Re:I have this...

[Emperor Tiberius]

In xdarl, Darl and Bill would operate together in the shadows. You'd have a large Linux network, Darl will go off in the shadows, get $86 million from Bill, and come back with licenses and lawyers. Actually, in retrospect, it would be cool if someone actually coded this.

This is a really good idea

[dealsites]

As a Linux newbie (currently don't have Linux installed, but have used it and plan to install it soon), it would be nice to know which are the most popular packages. Most people would like to have an idea of what the more experienced users use, and thus would like to try it themselves. In addition to knowing the most popular packages, it would probably be a quicker install be having the best ones at the beginning of the installation process instead of having to swap CDs too many times.

--
Real time deal updates from all the major deal sites. Search easy and quickly!

Re:This is a really good idea

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

As a Linux newbie (currently don't have Linux installed, but have used it and plan to install it soon), it would be nice to know which are the most popular packages

I think kernel-image*.deb and libc6*.dev rate quite high.

Re:This is a really good idea

[Anonymous Coward]

The most used stuff=the stuff that's installed by default.

else check freshmeat's popularity ranking

Re:This is a really good idea

[ameoba]

The thing about the Debian install process is that you don't need all 13 CDs. After you do the base install, you scan the CDs that you feel like using and they get added to your local list of available packages (be it none, 1,2 or all 13). The first 2 CDs cover most of the stuff that you need to get the system working; by the time you get to the last disc, we're talking about some pretty obscure stuff that only has 3 users (2 of them are the devs and the 3rd is the guy making the package).

This is already a pretty reasonable distibution of files on the first 2 discs (the installer, OTOH still needs a lot of work; the new installer is a bit nicer than the old one but it doesn't really work all the time & there's some inconsistancies in it (like when you're partitioning drives, the drive labels in fdisk aren't the same as the names you see when you're assigning mountpoints to drives (which isn't even able to recognize swap devices as such & call them swap by default))) but it could always be perfected a bit. I have to wonder why they can't extract this from the logs on the mirrors tho...

Re:This is a really good idea

[C10H14N2]

It's pretty easy. 90% of the packages are installed by less, usually FAR less, than half the users. Although, I must admit I found it humorous that the package tracking the usage was installed by less than the total number of users ostensibly reporting.

WTF?

Re:This is a really good idea

[BiggerIsBetter]

Uh, I have never used Tex. And it's installed (and updated) by default by every version of Debian I've tried.

Re:This is a really good idea

[Penguinshit]

Actually, the best way is to just use Disc 1, get the base installation, and then do the rest via network (assuming you're on broadband - I shudder to think what an installation would be like over dialup).

This way you get the latest "stable" (oxymoron, I know) and all of the security updates as well.

I install Debian this way all the time (well, every time I'm doing a fresh installation).

Re:This is a really good idea

[adamshelley]

If you are using KDE, the apps page, has a feedback option. It doesn't automatically guess what packages are better but the more people who use it the better it'll be.

Re:This is a really good idea

[Orgazmus]

Or if you want to do your work without having too boot up at 6 in the morning for gnome and emacs to be ready at 8, you use xfce4 and jed ;)

Re:This is a really good idea

[ticklemeozmo]

My only issue is:

The part-timers or learners may have chosen a "default" install, which installs packages that never gets used but are included for "posterity" sake.

Unless I'm wrong (and please correct me), one of the packages that gets installed by default in all redhat/fedora (where most people start from) seems to be "isdn-utils". And (again, unless I'm wrong), there really is no need for them to be in any default install these days, nor on the 1st CD of anything.

Re:This is a really good idea

[Orgazmus]

Well, it cant be PERFECT, can it? ;)

Re:This is a really good idea

[Avihson]

That is why I always chose custom for redhat and fedora. Even as a newbie, I was concerned about installing "the wrong thing".

I'm now playing with mepis, a debian based distro and it installs ADSL/PPPOE on a laptop that only has a wireless Nic.

I find it amazing that it can see through two routers and figure out that we connect via DSL, but not know that PPOE is not an option on my business lines!

Other than that, mepis is a great learner system.

Re:This is a really good idea

[gabebear]

I've installed a stabel base and then upgraded to unstable over dialup. It took it about 12 hours to get the packages I wanted.

Re:This is a really good idea

[Imperator]

Bad idea. Reasons:

• Debian users might not be representative of Linux users. Certainly not newbies.
• The most popular packages are the ones you don't really have a choice about. (For example, tar.)
• For a newbie, the vast majority of packages are ones that even if you install, you'll never use directly in the way you think of using a program on Windows. (For example, ncurses.)
• Where choices do exist, many people will use an older package out of familiarity and habit. (For example, some people swear that their lives have improved dramatically since they stopped using vixie-cron, but I still use it over the alternatives.)

I encourage you to install Linux, and Debian is a fine distribution for you if you're interested in learning. But don't look at package popularity. If you need help choosing between different packages that do the same thing, there are better places to look.

Re:This is a really good idea

[HeTTaR]

It is slow realllly reallly slow. I have done it several times, takes about 2 - 3 days to get sid all up and running on a 56k modem =o( Luckly I have ADSL in a week or so =o)

Re:This is a really good idea

[Drantin]

hm... the way I've done it twice recently is to get to the point where it's about to fetch things to install, alt-f2 over to another tty and have it include testing and unstable...(that way there's nearly no replacing of packages...)

Re:This is a really good idea

[fracex]

One time I was planning on doing a network install, after installing the first cd, over dial-up. Unfortunantly I could not get the modem driver to work no matter what. On second though maybe it was for the better.

Re:This is a really good idea

[AxelBoldt]

It would comfortably fit on a floppy disk (tomsrtbt).

Re:This is a really good idea

[zerocool^]

Actually, the best way is to just use Disc 1, get the base installation, and then do the rest via network (assuming you're on broadband - I shudder to think what an installation would be like over dialup).


Where I work, we have a local 100Mbit Debian stable mirror. When ever we install debian on a customer's machine, or one of our own, we obviously set the apt-sources to use the local. It's usually faster than installing off of multiple CD's (all I've ever seen is debian CD1, I wasn't even aware that there were 13 of them). Interesting to think that, for a lot of things, a 48x cdrom is slower than ethernet... but whatever. Plus we get lots of "Hey, what the heck mirror am I using, it's fast!?!?", and it makes us smile.

HTTP is the way to go for local mirrors, by the way, especially when getting multiple packages (like, say, "base system"?). That is, you're using vsftp, because you obviously care about security, and you're also too lazy to set up something that tells vsftp (or is it xinetd) to shut up, no that's not someone DDoSing the connection, those are real transfers. And by you, I mean me.

~Will

Re:This is a really good idea

[lspd]

Actually, the best way is to just use Disc 1, get the base installation, and then do the rest via network (assuming you're on broadband - I shudder to think what an installation would be like over dialup).

When you can get a DVD+-R to work in another computer, the DVD's (1 for stable, 2 for testing or unstable) are quite nice. If you have hard-drive space to burn you can also grab the ISO's and mount them using loopback devices.

Re:This is a really good idea

[lspd]

95% of the packages in testing or unstable would be obsolete within 2 weeks of burning the DVD anyway, so why waste the time?

It's not nearly that bad. Most of the packages in Debian are rarely updated, so it's fairly easy to keep the ISOs up to date with Jigdo. The real advantage is that it makes installation go faster and you can give a copy to someone with dial-up access.

Re:This is a really good idea

[martin-boundary]

Maybe one of the package's source code contributors is a Diebold employee?

Re:This is a really good idea

[alienmole]

I have a Debian server rented at a hosting company that gets 30Mbps actual throughput to various Debian mirrors and other download sites. Who needs a local mirror, all you need are fat pipes! ;)

Re:This is a really good idea

[discogravy]

Debian users might not be representative of Linux users. Certainly not newbies.

but they're representative of debian users. and this is a poll to determine the needs of debian users. newbies....well, they shouldn't be installing debian by themselves until debian decides that a GUI installer might not be a bad thing. I'm guessing it'll get into stable by 2011. Maybe.

Re:This is a really good idea

[deinol]

How does it determine popularity?

Does it actually look at what gets used, or just what is installed?

I have 357 packages installed on my debian machine. Most of those are just there due to my distribution's base install. I was lazy and used knoppix. I don't even use X on that system.

Now, the packages I actually use on it are:

vi
gcc
perl
exim
ssh
nethack
apache
wuftp
samba
ices
icecast

I'm sure there are a few others, but that is about it really.

So does it take actually usage into consideration, or just the fact that it is installed?

Re:This is a really good idea

[gujo-odori]

I use KDE and vi, and think Gnome was a lot better back in the days when Enlightenment was the usual window manager (never liked Sawfish), but why was this modded Flamebait?

Now, I don't much care for Gnome and if I thought it was important to change his mind (it's not; I think it's important that he use whatever works best for him) I could rattle off a bunch of reasons why (IMO) KDE is better. However, the fact that I disagree with him doesn't make his opinion flamebait.

Oh, wait, sorry. I forgot where I was. "Flamebait" and "troll" both mean "Something I personally disagree with."

Never mind :-)

Re:This is a really good idea

[Ben Hutchings]

It looks at the access times on each package's files (but it ignores files whose names don't match /\.*bin/|/sbin/|^/usr/games/|\.[ah]$).

Re:This is a really good idea

[lee7guy]

Please note that popularity != quality, more often than not the inverse is closer to the truth. This applies to software as much as to other phenomenons, such as music or art. Imho that makes exercises like this pretty pointless.

Re:This is a really good idea

[cbiltcliffe]

Actually, the best way is to just use Disc 1, get the base installation, and then do the rest via network (assuming you're on broadband - I shudder to think what an installation would be like over dialup).

When I first started using Debian (back in 1997) I did the install over what, if I remember rightly, was a 14.4 modem. I'd run dselect, pick the packages I wanted to install, get up to 50 or so MB to download, then quit dselect without downloading anything. At night, just before I went to bed, I'd connect to the internet, and start the install process. When I got up in the morning, everything would be downloaded, I could disconnect from the net, and let the computer get to configuring stuff after I'd answered the configuration questions.

If I remember rightly, it was somewhere on the order of two weeks of this process to get a reasonable system going. Now I have DSL, and can download all the .iso images in a matter of a day. With wget, of course.....

Re:This is a really good idea

[Imperator]

Try running a linux system without ncurses, it's not so easy. Sure, the user will see no benefit from installing it, but they're going to need it eventually.

Who sits there in dselect (or for other distros, in their usable installation programs) and says "I need ncurses"? No one. Rather, you install it when it's a dependency of some other package you want.

Re:This is a really good idea

[byolinux]

Heh, thanks for sticking up for me.

I'd be interested to hear your reasons about KDE, I use GNOME because it's what I'm used to, and what seems to run faster. Also, they seem to be getting good with usability.

Re:This is a really good idea

[Paul Crowley]

Not on Debian sarge/testing. I've installed it several times in the last three days, I know :-)

13 CD's!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not just make 2 DVD's?

Re:13 CD's!?

[byolinux]

I don't have a DVD ROM drive you insensitive clod!

Re:13 CD's!?

[tloh]

There are many boxes, particularly older hardware, which does not have a DVD-ROM drive.

Re:13 CD's!?

[raindown]

I asked myself this question when buying Unreal Tournament 2004 the other day and when the employee of the store told me they didn't receive any of the Special Edition DVD version. I was kind of baffled as to why they didn't make it a DVD only release, but it kind of makes sense to me.. It's not entirely safe to assume that that many people have DVD-ROMs, at least from a manufacturing perspective. I think that when you register the game you can send your system specs in thus allowing th company to know... Sorry for getting kind of off-topic but the same concept stands true in this case I think. Think of how many people have cd-burners compared to dvd-burners? Probably a big ratio.. so it makes more sense to put everything on a format that almost everyone has access to. (Note: ALMOST)

Re:13 CD's!?

[iminplaya]

Hey, it beats the hell out the 40(!) floppies that came with the Video Toaster back in ninteeeee....four? And the install required all of them. I suppose I'll never realize how lucky I was that all those disks survived five installs, when now, I see disks that don't live more than six months(high humidity down here) or five or six read/writes.

Re:13 CD's!?

[Shazow]

Be grateful it isn't 6035 floppies. ;-)

- shazow

Re:13 CD's!?

[Sean Umphlet]

You could just use jigdo to create the DVD images, right?

Re:13 CD's!?

[cbreaker]

I'd say "make both."

A lot (most?) server boxes don't have DVD drives either.

Re:13 CD's!?

[afidel]

Most of the Dell and IBM Xseries servers I've installed in the last couple years have had DVD drives in them, when even a slimline DVD drive costs only $50 there really is no reason not to include them.

Re:13 CD's!?

[gabebear]

I think Debian is still the only OS you can download DVDs for.

You have to use jigdo, and you can't use Windows to download the image, but it's there.

Re:13 CD's!?

[deinol]

In danger of straying further off-topic:

What PC with the horsepower to handle Unreal Tournament 2004 doesn't have a DVD drive?

They are so cheap now, and come standard with most machines.

Now, to bring it back on topic, I want that Knoppix DVD! It's my favorite install of Debian!

Re:13 CD's!?

[tepples]

[DVD-ROM drives] are so cheap now

My grandma's computer has a CD-RW and does not have a second front-accessible drive bay to add a DVD-ROM. New cases for Dell motherboards are not necessarily "so cheap now."

Re:13 CD's!?

[lspd]

I've burned Debian Woody DVDs using DVD+R, DVD-R and DVD+RW, and the compatability seems to be very bad with older DVD drives. Hopefully one of the Linux magazines will put out the 2 DVD set for Sarge once it's released. DVD recordables just don't cut it and CD sets are getting too large.

Re:13 CD's!?

[cbreaker]

Well, that's good news. It's been my experience that although companies may spend ten or twenty large on a server, they often won't opt for the extra $30 for a DVD drive when there's no immediate need.

If they come standard, however, then that's a Good Thing.

Personally I just can't believe that DVD drives aren't absolute standard these days. I guess it's because there's so many CDR drives and not so many DVDR drives. Sure, a DVD reader will read both but the majority of people only read CD's... same old problem of migrating to any new tech.

Re:13 CD's!?

[yack0]

I know the toaster was out in about 1991 - 1992. The newly created Collge TV station/club bought one. S-VHS decks, an Amiga, IIRC, and Video Toaster. :)

What was that girls name that did the cartwheels for the wipes? Can't remember, but they named the wipe after her. [1]

[1] not to be confused with the Chem lab where you dried your glassware with 'Kim-wipes'. Heh.

Re:13 CD's!?

[Alien_Phreak]

anything that has no DVD drive, probably can't handle 13 CDs worth of data either. and If you have a computer with.. (let's say 13 CDs at 650 comes just under 10 gb plus compression, let's say 20 gb) I would still say u can afford the 30 bucks for a DVD drive. or NFS.

Re:13 CD's!?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have 240 gigs of local storage, and yet I don't have a DVD drive, so I would appreciate it if they don't drop the cd based distributions.

Re:13 CD's!?

[some guy I know]

Does this mean that they don't distribute Debian on floppies any more?

Re:13 CD's!?

[Crazy Eight]

The jigdo system provides DVDs.

Re:13 CD's!?

[pe1chl]

SuSE Linux has been released on DVD, then on 2 DVDs and the 9.0 version is on a double-sided DVD.

Re:13 CD's!?

[koali]

Kiki Stockhammer

Re:13 CD's!?

[toddestan]

I got tired of Windows crashing in the middle of playing back a movie on my computer, so when my sister's DVD drive broke I pulled mine and gave it to her. So my high end Athlon system just has a CD-RW. I haven't missed the DVD drive either.

However, if I wanted to play UT2004, I wouldn't have a problem spending $30-$40 to get a DVD drive.

Re:13 CD's!?

[Explo]

Perhaps I just feel that I don't need DVD drive for anything, especially because the bare bones system can easily be installed from one CD and the rest via broadband?

Re:13 CD's!?

[Jagasian]

The fact that the full Debian distro is 13 CDs is a great thing! You really only need one CD and the rest can be installed over the net. In addition, having every piece of software you would ever want packaged and available from a huge variety of standardized apt-get'able servers makes software installation, maintenance, and removal extremely easy!

Re:13 CD's!?

[Trejkaz]

We have one. The DVD drive which used to work fried and we can't afford any kind of replacement yet.

Even then, I don't see why game companies can't ship with both the CD and DVD. In an age when a CD key uniquely identifies each user, and for a game which is predominantly for online play, you wouldn't think the piracy issue would even exist.

Re:13 CD's!?

[sfsp]

FYI, Debian DOES offer DVD ISOs. Begin here (http://www.debian.org/CD/faq/#dvd) and start digging.

It's a failure.

[Mr. Darl McBride]

I hate to point it out, but the first kernel-image is in 2794th place.

Re:It's a failure.

[arduous]

By default, Debian doesn't install a package for the kernel, just the kernel itself. Many people leave it with the default kernel that it is installed, local root expoits and all.

Those who do update the kernel, again probably bypass the debian packages and roll their own kernel to suit their needs.

Then there is the third group of people will just "apt-get install kernel-image-2.4.18-1-686", and let the magic happen.

However, everyone (almost) has the adduser package installed.

Re:It's a failure.

[arturogatti]

I hope you're familiar with the Debian kernel packaging scripts. All it takes is two commands after you're done with "make *config" to automatically build a .deb of your custom kernel, ready to install.

Re:It's a failure.

[qtp]

That's because there are several different kernel-image packages tailored for different purposes (archetecture, processor-type, special use, etc), plus many Debian people build their own custom kernel-image packages using the kernel-package package (251st place).

And this

[JoeBaldwin]

Is when using Debian to install gnaughty bites you in the ass.

Re:And this

[fredzouille]

and don't forget pornview :
http://packages.debian.org/unstable/utils/pornv iew

Debian may not be desktop ready, but it sure is prOn ready...

I just installed with the Beta 3 installer

[cyber_rigger]

The automatic hardware detection is nice.

http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/

Re:I just installed with the Beta 3 installer

[witts]

I just installed it too, and it failed to set up my Creative Soundblaster Live soundcard, so I'm not very impressed with it. Oh, then I tried the famed dist-upgrade procedure, and it borked my computer. Debian ain't for me...

Someone has to say it..

[3DKnight]

I would still go with Popcorn.. at least their kernels taste better!

oh, i kill me...

Re:If this were TIVO

[Throtex]

If I had mod points, I'd use them to buy you a beer and/or your choice of an asian male hooker (some people are into that).

Not "popcorn"?

[nacturation]

I was hoping to read how to get popcorn from the kernel.

Re:Not "popcorn"?

[polymath69]

I was hoping to read how to get popcorn from the kernel.

Popcorn comes from kernels. Just place 'em on your Athlon.

poll

[adamruck]

they should just do a slashdot poll

Re:poll

[IntergalacticWalrus]

they should just do a slashdot poll

That wouldn't work, as there is no package in debian called "CowboyNeal".

Re:poll

[iceburn]

They should make a CowboyNeal.deb - it could be an empty package that depends on every other package on all of the cds. That would be rad.

Re:If this were TIVO

[byolinux]

This is Debian - the sources are there, you can see for yourself what it's really doing.

I don't trust it.

[Mr. Darl McBride]

The results are rigged!!!

emacs: (emacsen-common) -- 317th place
vi: (nvi) -- 208th place

I'd sooner believe we awarded Bush the popular vote!

Re:I don't trust it.

[bogolisk]

Check the package's priority

• emacsen-common's priority: optional
• nvi's priority: important

<joke>

$ dpkg -s kde
Package: kde
Priority: not-recommended
Section: bloatware
Installed-Size: 1666666666666666666

</joke>

Re:I don't trust it.

[DarkHelmet]

So darl... Any allegations of SCO code being in "adduser"?

Re:I don't trust it.

[joshhan]

actually, 317th / 208th place is pretty high up considering that emacs / vi does not get installed by default.

All the top ranking packages are really just base packages that have to be installed in order to have a minimum base system.

Re:If this were TIVO

[El]

Voluntarily giving up your privacy with fully informed consent is much different then sneaking in spyware without telling you about it. Those that are paranoid about privacy simply won't install it.

Re:This is *NOT* a really good idea

[Anonymous Coward]

I've seen the results of this when it was used in the Hurd CDs. There were absolutely retarded things like the battle.net client on CD #1, but not something simple like XFree86.

Popularity isn't something that works terribly well for this sort of thing, especially not on the first install CD.

how are the choices currently made?

[tloh]

I had assumed this was being done all along. How are debian packages currently organized in the install set hierarchy? By the way, are there any other front-ends to apt-get in the spirit of Synaptic? Synaptic is a nice program, but seems to be still very buggy.

Re:how are the choices currently made?

[leonscape]

If your using KDE you could try KPackage, I think theres one for GNOME as well... can't remeber what its called though.

Re:how are the choices currently made?

[shallot]

The popularity-contest results have been used for ordering packages on CDs for years now. This was just a reminder.

Partial list of most popular apps...

[cliffiecee]

gawk
talk
date
wine
grep
unzip
strip
touch
finger
mount
fsck
more
yes
eject
umount
sl eep

(Stop groaning. Someone had to do it.)

Let the flames start

[r00zky]

Current popularity rankings:

vi (287) beats emacs (317) :)
gnome (333) beats kde (586) :(
linux (251) beats hurd (13608) :o
lynx (281) beats mozilla (378) :????

Re:Let the flames start

[Tony Hoyle]

That's not surprising... lynx is a good starting point for a basic install when you're tweaking, and you might fubar X.

I prefer links myself though.

Re:Let the flames start

[bogolisk]

• libglib1.2 at 99 (the gnome1 foundation library), far ahead of libqtxxx at 430. It'd even ahead of libstdc++ at 103 and g++ at 116
• libglib2 (gnome2) is at 171, is ahead of libqt at 430
• at 315, libesd is ahead of libarts at 458
• libgnome32 (gnome1) is at 334, libgnome2-common (gnome2) is at 403, kdelibs-data is at 564. libncurses5 rules them all at 29
• nvi at 208 is far ahead of vim and emacsen.

Conclusion: on Debian, they like it lean and mean. terminal-ui rules; gnome1 is prefered to gnome2; KDE is barely tolerated.

--

Re:Let the flames start

[kidgenius]

I know I've fubared X more than my fair share of times, and lynx was always there for me to go google to fix my problems :-)

Re:Let the flames start

[r00zky]

Right, it works wonders when nvidia drivers get borked in kernel compiles.

But i'm afraid you lose:
lynx (281) beats links (970)
:P

Re:Let the flames start

[Anonymous Coward]

you're counting gnome/kde libs, i was counting gnome/kde binaries, since libs can be installed because of dependencies of other programs

Re:Let the flames start

[Atzanteol]

lynx (281) beats mozilla (378) :????

Not terribly surprising. I install it on all my machines (even the headless ones) for testing purposes. But only Mozilla only on my 'desktop' box.

Re:Let the flames start

[be-fan]

gnome and kde are metapackages.

libgnome2 vs kdelibs4 (to see who uses GNOME apps vs KDE apps) or kicker vs gnome-panel (to see who uses the desktop itself) would be more accurate.

Re:Let the flames start

[Red Leader.]

I use tar.gz releases of Mozilla. I can't be bothered to wait for them to trickle down...

Re:Let the flames start

[Xenographic]

I run lynx even on win32, you insensitive clod!

(and no, I'm actually not kidding here... makes me feel more at home whenever I'm using windows :)

popularity contest package

[MrWim]

The package popularity-contest is 42nd on the list with 18 less installs than the top packages, so how did these 18 people submit thier scores to the popularity contest?

Re:popularity contest package

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe they didn't install the ready-made package version of it. Perhaps they manually built it from source or copied the executable from another machine.

Re: It's a failure... no, it's a DISASTER

[Mr. Darl McBride]

People don't vote. Pop contest just looks at what you have installed.

That said, don't bother burning 4 CDs, 7 CDs, however many the next is. Just burn the first CD and source everything off the net. Debian's good for that, and it's less of a headache. If you have a bunch of systems set up, use a web proxy with a big cache for the installs.

13 CDS???

[moosesocks]

Great.... just when the novelty of not having to create 20 floppies to install debian began to wear off...

But, honestly, why can't we use a system like was used in the latter days of the debian floppy installer? The 20 floppies contained a base-install with everything necessary to connect to the internet and download the rest of the system, which was a LOT less than the normal ISO image. This was a godsend for anybody on 56k.

Re:13 CDS???

[kidgenius]

You most certainly can. Go get the "netinst" version that weighs in at around 100MB and everything will be installed via apt-get

vi/vim vs. emacs

[Peaker]

When comparing the popularity of the two, do not forget that vi is fairly standard and that vim is fairly small.

This means that whoever uses emacs should have no problem also installing vi/vim, while those who use vi/vim wouldn't typically install emacs/xemacs, which are much larger.

Re:Most popular package

[110010001000]

We thought of that when we created it, so we do not transmit back popcon in the stat list.

Security...

[dysprosia]

Since it's using e-mail (don't know about encryption or methods of encoding), wouldn't it be rather simple to pervert the statistics in order to promote some software? A mass-mailing would be obvious, but if it's done properly it may look convincing...

Re:Security...

[Dopefish_1]

This hardly seems like an issue to me. I mean, even if you're completely successful, what do you get out of it? Move a useless package onto the first CD, maybe bump something more useful back to CD 2 or 3? Who cares, most everyone who installs Debian does the majority over the Internet anyway. Besides, if they suddenly got a zillion submissions for some little-heard-of app, chances are they'd notice something fishy was going on.

About the only purpose I can see for even trying this type of abuse would be to try to "win" one of the famous flamewars (vi vs emacs, gnome vs kde, etc), and those are all high-profile enough that they'll probably all be at the head of the popularity list anyway.

Re:Security...

[RGRistroph]

That's exactly what I was thinking. I could easily make a subnet of "virtual" installations and prevert the stats.

However, I think there is little reason to. It doesn't actually promote a piece of software -- getting your piece on the first disk would just mean that more people whould have to use the 2d disk, not that more people would see or install your software.

Essentially, this is a cooperative effort -- the installers don't want to download stuff they don't need, the distributors don't want to get unnecessarily high bandwidth bills. The lack of adversial interests means that aspect of security is less important.

However other aspects of security ARE important. It would be a bad thing for a professional spammer to get a hold of a database of IP addresses and packages installed on them, and wait for the next exploit in some package to know what IPs to target to make into zombie spam-blasters.

You saw this with _Debian_?

[fizbin]

I'd like to see some evidence here.

I've never seen any of the official CDs get the dependency order wrong in the way you imply. I generously suspect that either you took some not-overly-careful shovelware site's rip of the Debian archives as "Debian CDs", or that you're getting Debian confused with some other system.

Re:13 CDS???

[Sean Umphlet]

Wouldn't you be able to use jigdo to create DVD images?

Slightly OT

[Trashman]

In case people are reading this and think it's cool and want to try Debian out. I suggest they read this page before they go looking for ISO's to burn.

The Official Debian installer is one the things people heavily judge the distro by.

Re:If this were TIVO

[teklob]

It's not an invasion of privacy because you willingly install it. I would've thought that was obvious.

Will Debian actually release a new STABLE?

[MickLinux]

I was waiting for a new Stable version after Woody, I guess, 2 years ago. Eventually, I sortof gave up.

This article seems to imply that such a release is actually going to happen.

Is it?

Re:Will Debian actually release a new STABLE?

[bfree]

Debian will release the next STABLE version when it's ready, always their answer. You can think of debian stable as having always done the sort of stuff RedHat, Mandrake and Suse are all looking to do now, build long term releases not "forcing" full system upgrades every few months. That all being said even Debian are hoping to speed up the release process, the next release will be the first release to come out of testing and is ironing out the kinks in that system. Also, it is moving rapidly towards a release. Debian-installer is now usable (for certain values of usable) on 6 platforms and the release critical bugs are dropping down to where a release should be quickly achievable (once all the main pieces are in place). I would be surprised if debian doesn't release before the Autumn (I'd guess June/July).

As the other reply to your post pointed out though, if stable doesn't do you testing (or even unstable) should do it!

Re:Will Debian actually release a new STABLE?

[yack0]

Well, not quite 2 years ago, but close. July 19th, 2002.

I also use four different methods for getting stuff that's not in stable (or ancient on stable) into my systems:

1) debian source packages
2) Source - like, source source. :)
3) backports.org
4) version pinning (which I do less of now that I do (3) above.

HTH

Re:If this were TIVO

[GarfBond]

Except, the obvious difference being is that your participation is being solicited and completely voluntary at this point. With TiVo, you're not really getting an option to opt out, even if they are pretty clear about what they're doing.

you beat me to it!

[xlurker]

that's the first thing I looked for while going through the list :)

The lesser exec-count for emacs could be explained by the fact that for editing and developement an emacs user is likely to keep that instance of emacs running to avoid the wait when starting a new instance of emacs.

I prefer vim. :)

I vote no!

[UrGeek]

Bad idea. Doing the most popular thang is far and different from doing the right thang in many case. As Robert Plant put it, "I am not a prisoner of your hit parade". DESIGN NOT POLLING!

Re:I vote no!

[cortana]

Please read the story before commenting; popularity-contest is not a poll.

It is a script that compares the atime vs ctime for the files in all installed packages, and uses this information to determine how often an installed package is used. This information can then be used to determine suitable packages for each CD of the Sarge release.

The only interaction the user has with popularity-contest is upon installation, when debconf asks him for permission to use the (more-or-less) anonymous data for the purpose outlined above. :)

Hope you don't have metered broadband.

[reub2000]

I feel sorry for the guys on metered broadband. 13 ISOs is going to use up all of your monthly bandwidth.

Re:Hope you don't have metered broadband.

[phrasebook]

Should only feel sorry for those on metered broadband and who didn't read/ask whether all the CDs are necessary. You only need the first CD to do an install, then apt-get from there.

Re:Did it ever occur to you...

[Mr. Darl McBride]

That perhaps the reason for that is that there are multiple versions of kernels, and not everyone installs the same kernel? Also, the packages at the top are one of a kind (like adduser.... who is not going have adduser? And cron?)

You're helping to explain why it's a failure yet you sound like you think you're contradicting me, son.

Re:13 CDS???

[reaper20]

There is also a ~30MB business-card netinstall that does the same thing.

Top pick for disk 1

[zedman]

Make sure popcon is on disk 1 ;-)

Ian

Hmm interesting

[Gilesx]

Did anyone else notice that Gnome is beating KDE hands down in this particular popularity contest? Maybe this means that Debian is used for more serious business use than as a hobbyist DE?

too tired, didn't RTFA

[xlurker]

ugh, too tired
was thinking that somehow those were exec-count rankings
nah, just install counts

Re:If this were TIVO

[Imperator]

Yes, you are a troll. This is an optional package that people can choose to install. It's open source, and the use of the data is also completely in the open. It's not an invasion of privacy when someone wants to give you data and explicitly gives it to you.

Re:If this were TIVO

[fliplap]

Debian is free. I pay for the hardware. They give me free software, source code, documentation and updates, services and they don't even profit from the hardware

If I could send anonymous view habits to Tivo in exchange for free service I WOULD.

Re:uhm

[mabinogi]

Because with windows you get NOTHING.

You get an operating system, a windowing system, a media player, a web browser and email client, a SMB client and server, and some small utilities and games.

The 13CDs of Debian contain almost every known piece of software that meets the DFSG and someone can be bothered packaging. And yet the smallest Debian install is still far smaller than the smallest Windows install.

w00t!

[Brandybuck]

w00t! I beat out 9wm! Go me!

Some questions and a suggestion.

[eddy]

Will I get a CC of what is sent out?

Also, wouldn't it be a good idea to ask the user on installation of popcon if this is a "desktop-" or "server-type" install of debian, and tag the data with that? That way we could have (beyond split statistics) jigdo/people compiling well composed CDs for those two different purposes. I'm guessing the software layout could be significantly different.

I guess you could infer the type from the data itself, but...

And no, I haven't RTFM. Yet.

Re:Some questions and a suggestion.

[smoking2000]

Nope it doesn't CC you, but can can make it do so yourself if you want the output of
`dpkg --print-installation-architecture` and
"dpkg-query --show --showformat='\${status} \${package}\\n'|"

vi `which popularity-contest`

popularity contest?

[abscondment]

aw shit, this reminds me of highschool. :(

Architectures: "Unknown" Holds #2

[cmholm]

I'm one of the small number of folks running Debian on an old Powermac, so I'm glad for the log scale on the architectures plot to help pull "my" group out of the noise. It bothers me that a very large fraction come up as architecture "unknown". I don't see a "--mind-your-own-damn-business" flag in the manpage, so what's with that?

Re:Architectures: "Unknown" Holds #2

[reub2000]

Although the way the graph is done makes it look as if there are half as many ppc users as x86, look at the side. ppc is averageing about 40 votes, while x86 has about 2,200.

Re:Architectures: "Unknown" Holds #2

[Tri]

Unknown means they are running popcon from woody, rather than sarge/sid. The older version of popcon did not send architecture data, while the newer one does.

Sure this is -1 Redundant but...

[adamofgreyskull]

I think that is a Bad Idea(tm). vi/emacs,cli nmap and mpg321 are not what newbies want, they want KWrite, nmapfe and XMMS. Just because more experienced users prefer them, doesn't mean they are the best introduction to a newbie,not by a long shot.

And for those interested in PopCORN....

[Stephen Samuel]

I have a web page on my website describing how to make popcorn the oldfashioned way. (i.e. oil, and a big pot). Includes some flavouring suggestions, too.

Re:If this were TIVO

[mistered]

Not only do you have to install it, but before it will do anything it gives a description of what it does, and then asks if you want to participate, with a default of no.

You can have your system anonymously e-mail the Debian developers with statistics about your most used Debian packages.

This information helps us make decisions such as which packages should go on the first Debian CD. Also, we can improve future versions of Debian so that the most popular packages are the ones which are installed automatically for new users.

If you choose to participate, the automatic submission script will run once every week automatically, e-mailing statistics to the Debian developers.

You can always change your mind after making this decision: "dpkg-reconfigure popularity-contest"

But since local traffic is free...

[Nermal6693]

I feel sorry for the people whose broadband provider doesn't mirror the entire FTP tree :)

Re:But since local traffic is free...

[gnuman99]

I feel sorry for the people whose broadband provider doesn't mirror the entire FTP tree

Provider?

Re:Mod parent UP!!!

[cortana]

You are supposed to install a kernel-image package after you install. The default kernel is a special one that is really only useful during installation.

This fact is probably mentioned in the Debian install manual; it will be a moot point after Sarge is released anyway, since the new debian-installer installs a regular kernel-image package like you'd expect.

Once you have, eg, kernel-image.2.4.18-3-k7 installed then apt-get update && apt-get upgrade fetches a new version of the kernel whenever it's updated, same as any other package.

Re:Mod parent UP!!!

[lspd]

It's a whopping huge deficiency in Debian's installation as a large number of people will assume that if they are able to boot then they have a kernel package installed and *MORE SERIOUSLY* that apt-get update/upgrade will install kernel security updates as they come along!

It's a known bug in the Woody installer and is fixed in the Sarge installer. Obviously a kernel is installed. The problem is that dpkg doesn't about it. You can fix the problem by installing the same kernel over itself if you're happy with the default 2.4 or 2.2 kernel.

Some recent discussion of the problem.

Does it still want initrd?

[xenocide2]

Took me a while to figure out what was going on with initrd and my own kernels, but I've finally gotten rid of that hoary beast. From what I can tell, initrd is only useful for installation media where you need to carry a metric shit-ton of network drivers and the likes. I haven't tried the sarge installer -- I assume debian kernels still default to this?

Re:Does it still want initrd?

[cortana]

Yes, debian-installer installs a Debian kernel-image package, complete with initrd. I agree that initrd is a feature useful for building generic kernels, and so don't use them for my own builds.

Having to edit the lilo.conf after installing a Debian-supplied kernel-image the first time *is* a minor annoyance; however, Debian's update-grub script removes this need (the only computer I admin that still uses Lilo is a server that boots of a RAID-1 volume) and I believe debian-installer installs Grub, not Lilo, by default.

Weird...

[Apreche]

All this time I thought that with debian you use jigdo to make your own custom cds. Oh well, guess I was wrong. Gentoo has catalyst now for making custom live cds, FYI. Oh yeah, network installs are king, if you're installing off cds still that's pretty sad.

Re:Weird...

[LinuxHam]

Sorry, but I see doing frequent network installs from non-local mirrors as being just as detrimental to the performance of the Internet as spam. Its not sad to keep traffic off the net when its unnecessary and wasteful. On a much smaller scale, its like finding an enterprise that configures a couple thousand desktops to hit a stratum 1 NTP server out on the net vs either hosting a couple of stratum 3 servers in-house or splurging for the $300 roof-mount GPS-based stratum 1 hardware.

If you were called in as a small-time consultant to convert 100 desktops for a business over to Debian would you do 100 network installs from us.debian.org? God I hope not. You'd ask them for a machine they're no longer using (there's always a few) and rebuild it as a local mirror from CDs, and run cron-apt on the desktops, pointing to the new in-house mirror.

Haw about this?

[melted]

Simply put these 13 CDs on 2 DVDs and get over it. For whiners who are still on modem links there's always network install.

What if MS did this?

[Stevyn]

I find it funny that people think this is a great idea, but if Microsoft did 1/10th of what they're doing everyone would freak. People go nuts about windows registration sending a serial number. This article would have fallen under YRO also. But I know the response, at least you guys would have the source to Popcon and know what it transmits, but how many people are going to go sifting through that? Not meant to troll, just pointing out some bias.

(Modding this down hurts my feelings)

Re:What if MS did this?

[GrimReality]

I find it funny that people think this is a great idea, but if Microsoft did 1/10th of what they're doing everyone would freak. People go nuts ... This article would have fallen under YRO also. ...pointing out some bias.

Points to remember, before you starting crying 'Bias':

• Microsoft might not even tell you they are doing this, but they do tell you.
• Microsoft might put it in some obscure corner of EULA and say that you have been told.
• Microsoft might make it a violation of EULA, DMCA, Patriot Act, Whatever ;-) to not use it.
• Windows might have it installed and enabled by default.
• It might be transmitting more than just anonymous usage data.
• [I know you mentioned this, still worth repeating, because it about why one person would be alarmed, having the source is reassuring.] Microsoft would not give you the source to the program that does this.

Here, they are directly requesting you to install an optional package (not sneaking it in). You even get the source. And when I say Windows and Microsoft, add other software and companies like RealPlayer/Real Networks etc.

Re:What if MS did this?

[shadewind]

That's because Microsoft actually can earn money on such information. Debian is an open source project which doesn't generate much profit for the developers.

Re:What if MS did this?

[thomasweber]

From /usr/share/doc/popularity-contest/README.gz:

SECURITY NOTE: it's impossible to make a submission completely anonymous, since Internet servers tend to add headers and log messages along the way.
Our receiver program at debian throws away this information as soon as possible so no one will see it, but if you're really paranoid you might not want to participate.

The popularity-contest package comes with a cron task to send the information out to us each week. You can change where the submissions go by editing /etc/popularity-contest.conf. Normally, you will send the results to:
survey@popcon.debian.org

The result of the survey is available at

http://popcon.debian.org/

You can find some sample analysis scripts in /usr/share/doc/popularity-contest as part of this package.

So, just configure the cronjob to CC you and you know *exactly* what's being sent.

This is...

[GregChant]

... just like high school all over again.

In other news, vim started putting up posters for prom queen.

What about floppy?

[Maljin Jolt]

I still have a Debian 2.1 on my 486/8MB notebook. It's installed from 11 flopppies. Well, maybe I should consider not to upgrade this time...

Re:Use DVD media

[Alien_Phreak]

I wholehearthedly agree. We need DVD ISOs. make 2 DVD ISOs available for the masses, much more convenient then download 13 freaking ISOs. here's another question, I'm just curious...what exactly is there to put on 13 cds. Most distro dont come even close. Full retail of most distro dont go over 5-6 CDs and that's including source. Alien.

Fast *and* useful editors

[astroboscope]

You should try emacsclient. It's great for things like email, but I still keep jed around for use over ssh connections.

Re:Wait a minute...

[Anonymous Coward]

Er, popularity-contest isn't installed by default. And even when I user installs it they get a blurb saying what the program does and the choice on whether or not to participate.

Re:13 CDS???

[manual_overide]

or...

if you have fairly common hardware, download the ide-pci disk images. I have the rescue disk and the root disk. 2 floppies. I can download the base-install from the net as well as the rest of the system. There are no other disks needed, unless you need to load drivers. Then you need a driver disk or two.

Either way, a debian install weighs in at as little as 2.8MB worth of stuff that you must download before starting the install.

Voluntary?

[qtp]

Ever hear the word before? No-one is required tio install this package in order to use Debian, get support from the mailing list, or to upgrade thier software.

This is not registration, it is not collecting personal, financial, addressbook, or browsing habit data. It's counting the software that you have installed, how often that package is used and how often it was upgraded.

Microsoft does collect this sort of data from their customers, and more.

They don't ask you if you want to participate. Whether or not you were paying attention, you did agree to it.

I like Debian's terms a whole hell of a lot better than Microsoft's, and I'm a lot happier using Debian's software as well.

Um...

[msimm]

Yes. You see commercial organizations do it all the time, some of it bugs us (spyware/adware/webbugs/cross-site cookies), but a lot of it doesn't (Neilson ratings/consumer surveys/warrenty questionaires). I think we all know that to design a good product you need to listen to your consumer base.

In fact this has been one of the big pieces that has been missing with Linux distro's. We throw as many applications into them as we can, having no accurate idea whats being used and whats just in the way. This is sort of a break-through when you think about it and I applaud the Debian's refeshingly long-sightedness.

Add to that that this is a open source project (under the GPL and written in perl) and you end up with a true rarity, an honest (and auditable) marketing tool. Don't like it? Don't install it.

This looks to me like a usefull tool in the fight for increased usability. OS hackers may not be able to do the tele polls and the in-mall customer questionaires, but they sure as hell can figure out how to get that information. And we sort of owe it to then to tell them a little something about the products they spend so much time (and care) working on for us.

Just my $.02.

OMG, this is spyware!

[AhBeeDoi]

Am I the only one who thinks this way? I realize that Debian will get around to doing something about the information in about two to three years, however, it's still spyware.

Re:OMG, this is spyware!

[shadewind]

That's like saying: - Hey can i watch what you're doing? - Yeah why not. - Cool. - You frickin' spy! You're watching me! Spyware is software studying what you're doing without telling you about it. You're actaully asked if you want popcon to be installed.

Good idea reasons...

[msimm]

I agree with the above poster, but why this needs to catch on:

1) We currently have a 0 feedback model for most distro (said distros forum and Slashdot aside).
2) It WILL tell the developers of a distro a bit about how their distro is being used (lots of data, the deeper they dig the more they learn).
3) Other distros need to see this as a *requirement*. Popularity-popusmearity, this is customer feed-back! Guess how many times I've been asked how I use my favorite flavor of Linux over the past 5 years?

I think Debian has hit a little bit of gold here and I hope to see it expand to other distros. These guys work hard to write 100's of useful apps and compile them into a useful operating environment, more information can only help that process so I'm into it.

popanal.py?

[Anonymous Coward]

After installing popcon, I decided to take a look at the documentation. And in /usr/share/doc/popularity-contest/examples/README. examples I found this:

>Now you can do, for example:
>
> cat popcon-entries/*/* | popanal.py

Nice. This has to be the most homoerotic thing I've ever seen.. let's slip something into the pipe to pop the anal pie.

Re:popanal.py?

[shallot]

BTDT :)

I feel like

[Tsiangkun]

if microsoft said they were bundling a software tracking system to their products people would flip out. I think people would be right to get upset at someone else telling you what you are going to be sharing. This is a Linux dtstribution saying -->HERE-- is a program that might let us track popular software installations. . . Install it if you want to. That 'if you want to' part is what makes this acceptable to me. --Tsiangkun

13 CDs?

[oohp]

> determine how things get arranged on the 13 CDs of the upcoming Debian stable release

Why not just make a DVD image? I know not all people have DVDs but it would be cool as an alternative. It will also be nice if they distributed their ISOs via BitTotrrent.

I dunno..

[destiney]

I never tried Debian. Does it run on Gentoo?

Vi gets isntalled more, but emacs gets used more

[ace123]

#rank name . , . , . inst vote old recent no-files
208 . nvi . . , . . ,1817 597. 1125 95. . 0
317 . emacsen-common.1558 996. 255 .54. . 253
odumblamenessfilteroooo ---^

Yes, vi gets more installations, but approximately 2/3 of them are marked as old.

Only 1/3 of the people, or 597 people actually use vi.

For emacs, a mere 1/6 of them are old and 2/3 of the people, or 996 people use it.

Huh?

[Crazy Eight]

My kernel is 1/30th the size of it's source tarball. "mozilla-browser" is a bit less than 1/3 the size of the source tarball disregarding the diff. What am I missing?

Will I live to see it

[nihkee]

I'm 26, will I live to see the next Debian stable release? I know, my days are numbered, I only have 17444 or so left.

you forgot to count: vim, vim-gtk, vim-gnome,

[hummassa]

287 vim 1632 1205 155 272 0
1784 vim-gtk 303 235 27 41 0
....
vim-perl
vim-python
vim-ruby
kvim,

*and* all _other_ variations of vi! :-)
ah, and vim installations tend to be less "old" and more "used" than even emacs... :-)

Great

[gcore]

Already have it installed since a couple of months.
Never quite knew what it was for, but it looked nice :)

Re:This is *NOT* a really good idea

[commanderfoxtrot]

...but not something simple like XFree86.

That's probably a first... :-)

ahhh but

[Rimu]

just because a package is installed, doesn't mean that it's used. for e.g. i have vi, but i don't use it.

Hah!

[Trejkaz]

If you want a real challenge, try getting apt-get to the bottom.

Re:Vi gets isntalled more, but emacs gets used mor

[Trejkaz]

And that's not even taking into account that to do anything in emacs takes more keystrokes than in vi! That means even more time is spent in emacs, making it the sure-fire winner.