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Stoplights to Mete Out Punishment?
gilrain writes "The San Francisco Chronicle is reporting that traffic engineers have created a stoplight that deals with speeding. According to the article, 'It senses when a speeder is approaching and metes out swift punishment. It doesn't write a ticket. It immediately turns from green to yellow to red.' This is not just a prototype: it is in use now at an intersection in the Bay Area. Does stopping speeders before others serve a purpose other than petty revenge? Is it even safe to change expected stoplight patterns, especially for drivers in a hurry?"
Still, one thing to be really clear about is (a) don't set it up so that if you really speed you make it through the yellow, but (b) don't make it so far away that you catch someone ahead of the speeder with the red light!
By the way, I've had lights change to red on me for no apparent reason, and wondered if this policy was already implemented. It was in the Bay Area, but not Pleasanton.
Mencken had it right. So glad that's old news.
Of the Dukes of Hazard where the local pig... er umm Sheriff had a pop-up Stop sign to charge passerbys and new residents.
It was deemed crooked by the show, and it's crooked now.
That seems incredibly unsafe. Not only could it cause a serious accident, think about what it's going to do to traffic. Especially in a major city like San Francisco, you've gotta have coordinated traffic lights or the streets will be a mess.
Wireless News www.DailyWireless
I was in Switzerland last year and I noticed that the stoplights there would show the yello signal in both directions. So if you're at a red light, the yellow will go on to let you know the green is getting ready to change in the opposing lane.
In the states, this doesn't happen. It's almost as if we can't do that to people in the US - they'd run the yellow at the red. More evidence that Europeans are a more civilized in their driving?
This is one of the problems with a society that derives a significant portion of its revenue from crime (through fines). Anything they can do to tack on more charges just lines their budget.
It's called "thinning the herd." If you cause enough accidents, the number of people that speed in these areas WILL go down.
I bet it's the all-powerful casketmakers' lobby behind this... Get your tinfoil hat.
This is the worst idea EVER. Yeah, I'm going to feel *real fucking safe* when suddenly the most batshit nuts, speeding drivers on the road are unexpectedly and without warning coming to sudden stops because they've triggered the "punishment light". To say nothing of the collateral damage caused by the fact that everybody on the road winds up stopping.
Vehicular safety ONLY FUNCTIONS when the behavior of all of the drivers is as PREDICTABLE as possible. That's why we have stoplights in the first place, if you think about it.
I can't wait for the first time it rains in this area. One person will speed, the light will suddenly turn red, half the cars will notice and come to a sudden stop, some of the cars will stop more slowly than others because of the slippery road, some will hydroplane... just THINK of the number of rear-end collisions you'd get. (And, of course, in each case, the insurance companies would place "at fault" the person in rear for failing to notice the without-warning red light immediately and stop immediately, or for failing to predict the person in front of them might come to a stop without warning...)
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
I grew up the town over from Herndon, and these speed-trap lights have been in use there for 20 years at least. Far back as I can remember. It's not just on Herndon Parkway, it's on other roads in town too. Herndon is notorious for pillaging the pocketbooks of its drivers.
...is a red light. Sure, I see people "run" them all the time, but that's because the light turned red within a second or so. Anyone, angry, drunk, or whatever, who sees a red light right now... will stop.
They will stop partially because they are "programmed" to do so, but also out of self preservation- a red light means cars coming from the other side.
This mechanism disrupts the natural order of things, turning a neutral respected tool (the stop light) into an instrument of morality (because no one is being helped directly by you stopping because you were in a hurry).
The overall effect is that if you are driving and the light turns red... not only might there not be any cars who need to go by, but those cars might not even have a red light!
Now brought to you by the Ministry of Traffic: Intersections with four red lights at once! For the convenience of all!
I hope that the "shotgun vote" that defeated metric streetsigns goes into effect here.
| | |
| | me, 85 mph |
| V |
--------- -------------
you, 85 mph O
-----> O light, changes quickly
O from red to green to red...
--------- -------------
| |
| |
| |
here is some text to prevent the postercommenter filter from not letting me post my message. this is really dumb, i think i should be able to post it, it's not like it's totally off topic, and who doesn't like some good ascii art once in a while, not that i'm saying that mine is good, but that it's technically art, and it's, well, ascii.
Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. --Nietzsche
An effctive alternative is a traffic light that is red and turn green a fixed amount of time after an approaching car has come to a certain distance. Those who were going too fast have to stop, others can drive on smoothly.
I agree that this seems to be an old technology.
While I was visiting Portugal during the winter, I ran into many traffic lights setup in a similar fashion. They were a necessity: often times parts of a major road would run right through the center of a town. If speeding cars were allowed to pass through (mostly empty roads in the country, so speeding was not uncommon), they would put the townsfolk walking around in a lot danger.
I'm Trappped at Berkeley.
According to the article, the camera that measures speed is 350 feet from the intersection, and the speed limit is 40 miles per hour on one direction. Assuming a speeder is speeding 50 miles per hour in that direction, and assuming that the camera can accurately measure the speed of the vehicle 50 feet out, for a total of 400 feet from the intersection, that means the speeder has to get their vehicle 400 feet at least before the light turns read. Most lights have an absolute minimum safety margin on the yellow light that is around 3-4 seconds before the red goes on. Let's say 4 seconds. In order to get out INTO the intersection before the light changes red, the speeder only has to increase her speed when approaching the intersection from 50 MPH to 70 MPH, or 102.7 feet per second times 4 seconds, thus traversing the distance out into the intersection BEFORE the light turns red.
Of course the speeder has to accelerate to 70 MPH before entering the "zone" where the camera can measure speed.
Now what was once an only slightly unsafe problem (someone doing 10 over the limit) becomes VERY UNSAFE, someone doing 30 over the limit.
All I can say, is BRILLIANT!
Perhaps these brilliant traffic engineers will then think, "Ah ha! We can decrease the yellow light duration to nothing. That will solve it!"
Wrong again. Someone like that obviously doesn't understand the psychology of those speeders. Removing the minimum yellow duration makes the intersection VERY dangerous. If they just turn the light instantly red, and keep the lights in the other directions red too, speeders will learn that the "instant red" light is "not really a red light at all" and will learn to ignore it and speed on through. Now you'll have speeders AND red-light runners. That's a lovely combination.
Brilliant!
You're missing an important thing about peer pressure. You have to care what your peers think for it to work. In heavy traffic in a large city, people do obnoxious shit all the time. They do it because nobody they'll ever speak to will see it.
I heard a related funny story a few weeks ago. The police have these trailer units that detect speed and usually just show the number to make people aware of how fast they're going. The new ones check if you're speeding and take a picture of the back of the car as it passes and the owner of that license plate is issued a ticket (they do the same thing with stoplight mounted systems, but these are mobile for smaller towns). Someone with huge brass ones stole the license plate off of the back of the trailer. They put the plate on their own car and drove in front of the trailer a dozen times at 100 MPH. The next week a dozen reckless driving tickets were delivered to the police department. I hope it's true.
All this stuff is just another step towards our 24 hour survailance. "If you're not a criminal, then you won't have anything to hide."
-B
So, what's it going to do to recognize when, say, an ambulance, a firetruck, a cop car responding to a call, etc., are speeding up to pass through the intersection on their way to an emergency?
Yes, I know, they already "run" red lights to respond to emergencies, but they are slowed down by virtue of pulling to the intersection, making sure other vehicles have recognized that they're about to pass through and then continuing towards the emergency.
Still, do we need to complicate the jobs of first-responders by making sure every stop-light between them and someone in need of immediate assistance will turn RED?
They have had these for a LONG time in my home town. They don't work, the speeders end up either running the red light, or gunning it and making through the yellow. The end result? Speeders pass, and everyone else is punished.
Things like this are a Good Idea(tm) in theory, but when put into practice fall quite short of the mark.
Additionally, their triggers are often set to unreasonable levels, such as 5 miles over the speed limit, which can easily happen due to sensor differences and upward drift of speed in between glances.
IMHO this is the big problem with the system. Moving violations are no longer deterrents because people are willing to hire a lawyer and piss away court time to fight it, and it seems that most of the time they get off.
Break the law? No problem, just take it to court. Personal responsibility? No thanks, this is America where we have the right to break the law and not be punished, apparently.
The law was written with the understanding that the has a minimum amount of time that it stays yellow, allowing somebody to stop or go through. When you break that bargain, then the law becomes unreasonable.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
They can certainly influence the civic ones, of which speeding is an offense.
Besides, not sure if this is a chicken/egg or if this is a causational/ correlational issue, but ever notice the "natural" speed of a road is about 10 MPH over the limit, and 10 MPH over is where the fines are actually worth giving out?
There are four boxes used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order.
1- "hmm ... maybe i'm being unsafe to my fellow citizen and this radared red light is only warning me that i am a potential danger! I should slow down so as to no longer endanger the lives of my fellow, taxpaying citizen! i'll just be late to my meeting and the boss will have to wait"
2- "GODAM@#$*(@# STOOPID @#$*()@*@# LIGHT GONNA GET ME LATE TO THE MEETING !!!!! COMON YOU STOO@()#*$(*@ B*TCH GO GREEN ALLREADY COMON!!!!!!"
Like it not not, rightfull or not, this isn't gonna help anything.
-- If you actually say LOL instead of laughing, maybe it's time to go outside! --
Denver, however, not only allows right turn on red, but in some cases, LEFT turn on red.
They'd better. Denver's whack. Is there any other town in the WORLD where pedestrians can cross an intersection DIAGONALLY, right through the center of the intersection? So that pedestrians can pull off this amazing stunt, you'll be sitting at a four way stop light for a minute or so to allow granny to walk through THE MIDDLE OF THE INTERSECTION.
With weird ass customs such as this, Denven had BETTER allow left turns on red!
Mod down people who tell people how to mod in their sigs
On King Str in Alexandria, VA, there is a sign that warns the stoplight will change to red if you are speeding.
I tested it and it appeared to work as rpomised.
For the same reason it doesn't stop traffic jams. The individual is not directly penalised. You said it yourself - it makes *everybody* later to get home. But I bet those who weave and cut people off and so on get home just a little bit faster than everyone else, even if the average person is slowed. Let's face it, who is delayed, the person cutting someone off, or the person being cut off?
The traffic light idea is interesting. In theory it precisely punishes the offender. You speed, you get stopped.
In practice, I can see any number of problems with the notion, even before reading the discussion here, which I'll bet is full of smartarses poking holes in the system.
-- Pete, registered smartarse
I got my driver's license in Louisana in 1973. A school friend offered me a ride home and mentioned that she needed to stop at the Motor Vehicles to get some paperwork.
I thought that I would use the opportunity to get a learner's permit. I filled out the papers and took the eyetest. Then the written test with pictures of the correct answer in order to aid the large number of people in Louisana who can't read.
As soon as I passed the written, the state trooper stood up and said 'Ready to drive?'. I borrowed the keys to my friend's car and very slowly and carefully drove around the block. Thank god it was an automatic transmission.
I thought that I was doing OK until the last stretch of the block which was an expressway. I actually got up to about 45 MPH and then pulled back into the Motor Vehicles lot and cut the engine.
The state trooper started to write something on the form and then just looked at me and said "Girlie, You don't drive worth a piece of shit! You'se lucky you didn't get somebody killed back there! Well, I'm gonna give you your license anyway, but I strongly suggest that you learn how to drive!"
I went in, completed the papers, paid the fees, took the photo, and became a fully registered driver in the great state of Louisana.
When I got home I started laughing and couldn't stop for ten minutes.
I had never driven a car before in my life!
(But I had read a book on it at the library.)
I actually know of a specific instance proving this in at least one city. There is a section of Missouri state highway 54 that goes North off of Interstate 70 that we used to have to drive through to get to my grandparents' house. The speed limit on most of that section was either 55 or 65 (It's been a few years so I forget which). At one point it briefly passed through the edge of the city limits of Auxvasse for about a mile or two, even though there was no intersection or turnoff that actually went into the town at that point. Because it was "in the city", however, they marked the speed limit 10mph lower, and it was a great source of revenue from the speed trap that always caught people who were just driving past.
The farmers who owned the land on each side of this speed trap were getting upset at the bad name their town was getting from this, so they put up billboards next to the highway on their land announcing to slow down for the Auxvasse speed trap. The city told them to take the billboards down, and their response was, "Why? We're trying to help people obey the law like you want them to, right?" They agreed to take down the signs when the city raised the speed limit there back up to match the rest of the highway.
We may experience some slight turbulence and then...explode. -Capt. Mal Reynolds
Oh really ? You call it advanced ??
In major cities in India we have 2 digit LED displays on traffic lights that actually count down... it helps in many ways-
1. Reduces driver axiety - So people are less tempted to "gunning" their engines
2. Reduces road rage - People are less tempted to jump lights
3. You can see the signals from a distance and read the timer counting down... so you slow down well in advanced if you find you can't make it in time.
4. Less (well almost) fuel wastage since if the time reads anything above ~30 seconds you can easily switch off the engine and start it when the count is down to 5.
And it doesn't cost too much money either!!
- mritunjai