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Digital Cameras Change War Photo-Journalism

prakslash writes "Back in 1945, it took three days between the time U.S. Marines raised the flag on Iwo Jima and the famous picture of the historic moment was published in all the newspapers. In 2004, it took barely an hour before the explosive photos from an Iraqi prison were seen all over the world. This drives home a defining fact of 21st century - the pervasiveness of digital photography and the speed of the Internet are making it easier to see into dark corners previously out of reach of the mass media. As reported in recent news, some of the most shocking Iraqi photos were not taken by photo-journalists but by soldiers and government contractors who used a digital camera, a CD burner and an internet connection to zip the photos around the world with an ease that has never existed before."

86 of 694 comments (clear)

  1. Real Pictures? by Cpt_Kirks · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Pictures can be re-touched faster too.

    I don't think the pics out of Iraq are re-touched, but the ease and power of photoshop and such is something to keep in mind...

    1. Re:Real Pictures? by xmorg · · Score: 4, Informative

      check the jpg comments to see if they've been gimp'ed. :)

      Those soldiers were stupid, like the photographing nanking

      First rule of war
      DO NOT photograph your warcrimes :P

    2. Re:Real Pictures? by Cpt_Kirks · · Score: 4, Interesting

      As I said, I don't think the pics are re-touched. That kind of shit always goes on in war, by all sides. It stinks, but it happens.

      In fact, compared to some pictures I've seen out of Vietnam, those pictures are pretty G rated. A guy I know has a truck full of slides that would puke a dog off a gut wagon. Bits and pieces and crispy critters.

    3. Re:Real Pictures? by caseydk · · Score: 5, Informative



      Uh... the interesting thing is that the pictures are from this past August. And 3 (or 5?) of the people invovled had already been referred to Article 32 (Court Martial) proceedings as of 10 days ago.

      So yes, they only took an hour to go around the world. But it took 8 months for them to make it into the public's eye anyway.

    4. Re:Real Pictures? by Cpt_Kirks · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Those soldiers were stupid, like the photographing nanking

      OK, as a vet, I know of what I speak. I was pretty much a mercenary, in it for the college fund.

      Most (not all) people join the Army because they are poor and ignorant. It's a step up. IIRC, the bunch who took the pictures were reservists from West Virginia (I may be wrong). Reservists are not as well trained as regular Army troops.

      These people were no different than idiot teenagers who video themselves trashing houses, beating up bums and shooting people with paint guns.

      Except the teenagers don't wind up in Leveanworth...

    5. Re:Real Pictures? by Cpt_Kirks · · Score: 4, Interesting

      He was a chopper pilot who flew three tours. He carried a camera all the time and made slides of all the pictures he took. A mini-gun, rocket, bomb or napalm can *REALLY* make a mess of people.

      That was a nasty ass war. The VC and NVA did really, really evil shit. So did we.

      It's the whole "stare into the abyss" thing.

    6. Re:Real Pictures? by Lux · · Score: 4, Insightful


      Umm... the pictures we're seeing on the news weren't taken three days ago, or a week ago, but months ago:

      http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040505-030 51 7-9479r

      You know, when the pressure was on to find Saddam. This stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum.

      So I'm curious how this pertains to digital photography at all...

    7. Re:Real Pictures? by bluGill · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Assuming (which if I understand the Muslim religion right this is correct) that these people didn't agree to the photo, and also have a prohibition of being seen nude, it is a second wrong to show them without retouching them. Forget about what happened and your concern of seeing it, and consider the rights of the victims. If these photos are available un-retouched, it must be only to those who have a genuine research need to see them, and then only if no other way of getting the information exists.

    8. Re:Real Pictures? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Most (not all) people join the Army because they are poor and ignorant.

      Kissinger agrees.

      "Military men are dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns for foreign policy." ~ Henry Kissinger

    9. Re:Real Pictures? by Ankh · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'm tempted to offer to host them, if he needs somewhere, as part of the moral obligation we all have to document the effects of our actions, including war.

      I don't have resources to scan large numbers of slides, unfortunately. But I can provide Web space.

      Liam

      --
      Live barefoot!
      free engravings/woodcuts
    10. Re:Real Pictures? by NanoGator · · Score: 4, Informative

      "I don't think the pics out of Iraq are re-touched, but the ease and power of photoshop and such is something to keep in mind..."

      It's harder than it looks.

      It's a LOT easier to fake these photos just by setting up something convincing. Can't speak for the American ones, but the British gov'ts been criticizing the pics of their alleged abuses. The pics depicted the wrong guns, the wrong trucks, etc. Never mind Photoshop, pictures are just plain decieving.

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    11. Re:Real Pictures? by demachina · · Score: 5, Informative

      Exactly right. The technology does exist to disseminate war information quickly but in fact Iraq has been one of the most poorly reported wars in a long time at least as far as the U.S. media coverage goes. You pretty much have to turn to the Arab networks to see any of the reality of what's been going on in Iraq. Those networks are, no doubt, slanted against the U.S. but the U.S. networks have been sanitized to the point they aren't giving any information at all about the real situation there. Pretty simply the American media has been completely cowed by the Pentagon through a variety of means.

      In particular most journalists have been embedded which gives them unprecedented access to military units but at the price that the military has gained massive control of what the journalists do and don't report and when. Since they live with the soldiers they were also showing a severe propensity to see things the soldiers way and not objectively. I'm guessing journalists who aren't embedded are having a real problem moving around Iraq or covering the story. You see very little truly independent coverage by American journalists. Embedding journalists was a stroke of genius by the military propagandists.

      Its also a simple fact of life most of the major media outlets have been incredibly reticent to cover controversial aspects of the war until recently for fear they will be branded unpatriotic, and that it will hurt their ratings which will hurt their advertising revenue. They know Fox will launch a broadside at them if they stray away from the party line that all is well in Iraq, and a host of politicians like Tom Delay will accuse them of treacherously undermining our troops in the field.

      If you look at the coverage of Vietnam those journalists actually covered the real war in all its gore and ugliness. It caused Vietnam to become extremely unpopular, but mostly because people actually saw what was happening. The Pentagon has gone to great lengths to make Iraq appear to be clean, neat, tidy and heroic, though only by covering up most of the blood and the brutality which only came to light because a private with a conscience made a report they couldn't ignore and someone else with a conscience finally leaked the pictures at great personal risk, just like Daniel Elsberg did with the Pentagon papers during Vietnam. If that person hadn't stuck there neck out to expose this I doubt you would have ever seen the pictures because the were classified and DOD would have buried them, while they court martialed some little fish.

      Its a simple fact that since 9/11 the Bush Administration decided to take the gloves off and have been condoning torture in myriad ways but with plausible deniability, by doing it at Guantanamo off shore, by sending prisoners to foreign governments like Syria and Saudi Arabia for torture, and by just looking the other way in Iraq and Afghanistan. The whole point of creating the term "enemy combatants" in place of POW's and in side stepping Geneva convention protections was precisely so that intelligence could be gathered by any means necessary. The soldiers in Iraq are probably being court martialed for being stupid enough to take pictures that destroyed plausible deniability more than for the actual torturing.

      Its important to note Cheney and Rumsfeld are experts at hiding brutality by the American military. They are the leading suspects for having buried the investigation of the 101st Airborne's Tiger force that went on a civilian killing spree in central Vietnam. That investigation died in the Nixon administration during Rumsfeld's first stint as Secretary of Defense and while Cheney was Nixon's chief of staff.

      Fact is since 9/11 the Bush administration felt they were facing a ruthless enemy and if they wanted to win they had to be equally ruthless. Unfortunately in Iraq, with the surfacing of these pictures, its undermined the only remaining rationale for the war in Iraq, that the U.S. was liberating the Iraqi's from Saddam's brutality when in fact the U.S. is being pretty brutal itself. Its hard for the Bush administration to rant against "Saddam's rape rooms" when proof has surfaced that the rape rooms are still in use today.

      --
      @de_machina
    12. Re:Real Pictures? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      I hear ya. My Dad was a Sergeant with Australian Infantry, doing two tours, and I tell ya, the slide shows we get at home are fucking seriously scary. Nobody wants a loved one to go to war.

    13. Re:Real Pictures? by Mekkis · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Definitely. You put it very well. The interesting thing about the Tiger Force was that although there was sworn testimony, the court-martial decided to suspend the sentence of these war criminals because it felt the citizens had already 'lost faith' in the nation due to the Vietnam War. Recently, when a reporter for NPR used FOIA to get documents on the Tiger Force, and ask why they were never prosecuted, the Pentagon referred to the war-crimes in question as "allegations". Sworn testimonies in a case where the defendants were found guilty are now "allegations". Thanks, Bush & Co.
      However, the topic's on the Iraqis being tortured by the U.S. military. Although the soldiers in question have 'come to justice' (see above for definition of justice), the U.S. military still 'outsources' a lot of its 'interrogation' of Iraqis to private security firms (AKA mercenaries), who practiced (and still practice) similar if not worse torture, are going around unpunished simply because they're not subject to the same regulations and laws as U.S. military personnel, and therefore are not subject to a court-martial. At worst there would be a civil suit, but then again any plaintiff'd have ot make it past all those high-priced lawyers spinning the facts...
      Looks like Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld learned an important lesson: privatization of a crime means the accountability is no longer yours! Your consience is clear in the eye of the public. Wake up folks, the largest 'coalition' partner in Iraq is not the U.K., it's mercenaries!

  2. PKZIP by Wingie · · Score: 3, Funny

    No, you idiot! You use PKzip to zip images, not the Internet!

  3. Consequence by Safety+Cap · · Score: 4, Interesting

    As a result of the near-instant publishing of "sensitive" materials, expect to see the military prohibit digital cameras shortly.

    --
    Yeah, right.
  4. Zip them.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Maybe someone should "zip" them a copy of the Geneva Convention?

    Maybe Bush should "zip" away and sign the Hauge treaty?

  5. You have to wonder who these fucking idiots by multiplexo · · Score: 3, Insightful
    were that decided to take pictures of themselves committing war crimes. "Hey honey, let's put a bunch of naked Iraqis in a pig-pile and then have ourselves photographed behind it".


    This is going to totally change the rules, when you have 5 megapixel digital cameras that will easily fit in a BDU jacket pocket and when everyone has one you're going to see a lot of pictures that the Pentagon would rather you didn't, which is probably a good thing.

    --
    cheap labor conservatives - they want to keep you hungry enough to be thankful for minimum wage.
    1. Re:You have to wonder who these fucking idiots by bug506 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's possible that the presence of the cameras actually made the abusers more harsh.

      How many times do you do stupid things in pictures that you wouldn't normally do? When someone points the camera at you and you make a stupid face--would you make the stupid face at that person if they weren't taking the picture?

      The same thing may have happened here. The abusers likely got caught up in the idea "this is funny! let's pose them THIS way! hahaha... now let's pose them THAT way!" If the cameras weren't there, the abuse still might have happened--but the abusers may have lost interest in it much more quickly--and thus spared some of the prisoners the abuse.

    2. Re:You have to wonder who these fucking idiots by pyrrhonist · · Score: 4, Insightful
      The latest news is that one of the MP's stated that she (and probably) other reservists never received training on the Geneva Convention's rules on POW treatments.

      Apparently it requires military training to know how to treat a human being fairly. Seems to me she should have learned it when she was a child.

      --
      Show me on the doll where his noodly appendage touched you.
    3. Re:You have to wonder who these fucking idiots by dustmite · · Score: 3, Informative

      I guess you aren't paying much attention then. Rumsfeld has been all over the news stating that the photos are not only real, but that there are far worse very brutal pictures that have not been publicly released. There are also at least two prisoners who were murdered, with two homicide investigations under way.

  6. And this is a good thing. by Black+Parrot · · Score: 3, Insightful


    Because it provides at least a partial answer to "who guards the guards".

    A crack-down on possession is almost inevitable, since our society seems to prefer hiding problems over fixing them, but IMO any such crack-down will be lamentable.

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  7. Stupid by Bobdabishop307 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Its bad enough US troops were doing this, but why were they even taking pictures of it? How stupid can you get, really...

    --
    "Anyone who quotes me in their .sig is an idiot" - Rusty Russell
  8. How about the correlative? by The+Slashdotted · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The Washington Post was allowed to post the Pentagon papers because they had a million lawyers behind them.. If we go to a mostly indy media, can the government harass editors and throw them into prison

    If you think this isn't possible, what's changed between now and the alien and sedition act of before?

  9. Wasn't all that fast..... by dethl · · Score: 5, Informative

    The first prison photos to be shown on CBS were taken last year .

    --
    "Some fight for law. Some fight for justice. What will you fight for? One day, you will see."
    1. Re:Wasn't all that fast..... by wwwrench · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not only did it take a long time, but there are tons of stories, not to mention video and pictures which still have not been reported by mainstream media, (at least in America). In Europe, and the Arab world, one sees very different images. As an example, take a look at this video of America's finest punish some Iraqi's for taking wood: DontLoot.wmv, or try google
      The question is not as much whether the images exist, it is whether gutless mainstream American media is willing to show it.

      --

      Deconstruct the State
  10. January by msjacoby · · Score: 4, Insightful

    WTF?! From what I understand, these abuse photos were taken way back in January! That's a lot more than an hour.

    What is being said about the shortening of the photojournalism cycle is still true, I just think this is a case of a bad example.

    The date of the pictures is a seemingly minor detail, but I think it's very important. Little innacuracies like this perpetuate broad misunderstandings of important events.

    -Matt

    1. Re:January by MBCook · · Score: 3, Interesting
      I agree. Only my understanding is that the abuse happened last year, like November. What happened in January is that the investigation that started back in November (it was started by the Army, who was on the ball) ended. It's only in the last week that the media has picked up on this story. Reports from January issued by the Army mentioned this investigation or that charges had been filed or completed or something like that.

      It's only NOW that the media tells us about the breaking story, MONTHS AFTER IT HAPPENED. Why now? Either they were too busy with some other rediculous thing or accusation back then, or they waited untill now to make the president look worse.

      But that last paragraph is my editorializing. The point is that while the photos could have been taken and made it onto the front page within an hour, it actually took months. I don't believe this story one bit.

      --
      Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
  11. An hour? by catbutt · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You are saying that it was an hour between the time the photo was shot and it was "seen all over the world"? I'm calling BS.

    1. Re:An hour? by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 4, Insightful

      European and Arab news agencies have been reporting the same abuses since the Red Cross released a scathing report 8 months ago. The disgusting pictures finally made the story too big for the US networks to ignore it any longer.

      Arab news organizations have reported extensively on US troops destroying and stealing things in Iraqi homes during search missions. US news also hasn't covered the closings of anti-US publications in Iraq (which set off the current Najaf situation). These are the kinds of stories that the Arab world sees every day. Since most Americans don't see any of that stuff, we have no idea why they're so upset.

      -B

  12. Re:Prisoners photos? by scrod · · Score: 4, Informative

    They're not hard to find.

    What's more disturbing are the details in this leaked US army report

  13. Big time. by khasim · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The Red Cross report didn't have an effect.

    The complaints didn't have an effect.

    The eye witness accounts didn't have an effect.

    A few pictures change everything.

    Most people have stronger reactions to pictures than they do to printed words. If the military is going to control the reaction, the military is going to ban cameras.

    When cameras are outlawed, only outlaws will have cameras.

    1. Re:Big time. by beamin · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I'm reminded of Thomas Nast, the cartoonist whose work in Harper's Weekly brought down Boss Tweed in 1870s New York. Tweed's timeless lament: ?Stop them damn pictures. I don?t care so much what the papers write about me. My constituents can?t read. But, damn it, they can see pictures.? Looks like 130 years and ubiquitous public education hasn't done much to improve the masses, but the power of images remains.

    2. Re:Big time. by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 3, Informative
      The Red Cross doesn't publicly release reports, on the grounds that a future regime would probably denounce the IRC as traitorous spies. The implicated government is then supposed to correct its errors of judgment.


      "I am profoundly disturbed that the report was made available for publication without the consent of the ICRC. The ICRC fulfils its mandate to protect persons detained in armed conflict by addressing problems and violations through private approaches to the detaining authorities and their superiors. This long-standing practice allows us to act in a decisive manner, while ensuring that our delegates have continued access to detainees around the world.
      ICRC President Jakob Kellenberger

      Meanwhile, abusive governments may assert that journalistic coverage of POW treatment is itself a war crime.


      Prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity
      Article 13, Third Geneva Convention
    3. Re:Big time. by ipfwadm · · Score: 5, Informative

      What report? According to the Red Cross, any communication on the treatment of prisoners is considered sensitive material, and is not made available to the public.

      According to the USA Today, the Red Cross "repeatedly demanded that U.S. officials correct problems in Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison before recent revelations about the abuse of Iraqi inmates by American soldiers." (See article here)

      What complaints?

      I'm sure at least some of the prisoners complained.

      What eye-witness accounts?

      Oh, gee, I don't know, all the other prison guards that were standing by, knowing damn well this was going on, without doing a thing to stop it? And how far up the chain of command did this go, with no one doing anything to stop it?

      What change? Remember, the soldiers pictured had already been held over for an Article 32 hearing (an official investigation, kinda-sorta similar to a grand jury in civilian criminal law, only not really) before 60 Minutes made with the shock and awe.

      The public now knows about it, which will certainly encourage the military to clean up its act. That's what changed. Further, just because the military started acting on some of the violators does not mean that there weren't more violators out there. Now, with the public knowing and demanding that it stop, more strides will probably be taken to make sure that it does stop (a complete investigation, etc etc).

      The pictures changed nothing but public opinion.

      You make it sound as if public opinion is irrelevant. Remember, the United States has civilian control over the military. And guess who elects the civilians that have that control? Oh yeah, the public. And guess what 2004 is? An election year. So don't tell me that it was "just" public opinion that changed.

      The public opinion shifted from the false position that every Iraqi prisoner was being treated equally and well to the equally false position that every Iraqi prisoner is being hideously tortured.

      Bullshit. I don't think anybody thinks that. But do you disagree that even a single prisoner being mistreated is too many?

      You've got front-page news of what is, in perspective, a very small event.

      Do you understand what's at stake here? We invaded Iraq under the pretense of removing WMD. That has yet to pan out (maybe it will, maybe it won't), and after a while, the justification for the war switched to "at least Saddam is gone, at least the torture chambers have closed, and at least Iraqis will never have to live in fear anymore." Well guess what, the torture chambers are back open again. Do I think what the US has done is as bad as what Saddam did? Probably not, but I'm waiting to find out what these other images are that Rumsfeld talked about yesterday before I make my final decision.

      The United States is supposed to be the leader of the free world, the country the rest of the world looks to for morality. And right now we're not being a very good role model. There is already plenty of anti-American sentiment around the world, and we certainly don't need any more fuel on the fire. I, for one, am currently ashamed to be an American, which is something I have NEVER felt before. So don't tell me this is not front page news.

    4. Re:Big time. by Dr.+Spork · · Score: 4, Informative
      If the military is going to control the reaction, the military is going to ban cameras.

      Yeah, that was the real problem in that prison: the cameras! If it weren't for those pesky cameras, there would be no crimes, right?

      Actually, Rumsfeld said something to this effect. They asked him how such a thing could happen, and his characteristically evasive answer was that the the security precautions need an update when everyone has digital cameras and phones and 21st century stuff. So that's the lesson for the Pentagon: we need to make new rules about cameras in the vicinity of sanctioned torture and rape.

      You think I'm being cynical? Look at Rumsfeld's own words from yesterday:

      We're functioning in a - with peacetime restraints, with legal requirements in a wartime situation, in the information age, where people are running around with digital cameras and taking these unbelievable photographs and then passing them off, against the law, to the media, to our surprise, when they had not even arrived in the Pentagon.
      (source)
    5. Re:Big time. by evilviper · · Score: 4, Interesting
      A few pictures change everything.


      Pictures can't be criticized as being biased (not much anyhow). Pictures can't be called liars. Legitimate pictures can't be disputed as being false (the truth of the matter can be proven quickly).

      Words can be spun. People's reports can be biased. Words can be taken out of context.

      Most people have stronger reactions to pictures than they do to printed words.

      I don't believe that at all. The pictures looked bad of course, but that was nothing compared to the report that went along with them. The pictures showed troops going over the line, but not as dramatically as the report does. The pictures don't show rape, sodomy, or any other of the serious tortures that took place.

      I think most people can understand the use of a little excessive physical force, and all the reports I heard previously never said anything more than that... Reports of "abuse" can be taken so many ways.

      The biggest reason pictures are important is because it gives credibility to the words from any source. So, until the pictures came out, the press was incredibly cautious when discussing abuses. Now that they have the pictures, they've finally put all the "words" out in the open.
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    6. Re:Big time. by ipfwadm · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ok, so you were ok with it when those fuckers BURNED AMERICANS ALIVE AND HUNG THEM FROM BRIDGES?? You fucking piece of shit loser.

      Where on earth did you get that from my post? Let alone from the part that you quoted?

      And to answer your question, no I was not ok with it. However, (a) that incident occurred after the currently-released photos were taken so it cannot even be argued that the mistreatment of Iraqis was retribution for Fallujah (I don't know that I want to know what atrocities might have been committed as retribution for Fallujah, however), and (b) does the fact that Iraqis mistreated Americans justify American mistreatment of Iraqis? Especially when, as I mentioned in my original post, our now-stated justification for the war was to rid Iraq of tyranny, abuse, and torture?

      Makes a lot of sense, doesn't it: "Oh shit, the Iraqis did horrible things to our citizens, that's so terrible... let's go do the same to them!" Isn't it hard to be appalled with someone else's behavior when you do the same thing?

    7. Re:Big time. by killjoe · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you are ashamed to be an american because of those pictures you are in the minority. If I held a "torture a suspected iraqi terrorist" contest a full 30% of the country would sign up over night. If I offered 10 grand to do it 70% of the country would volunteer.

      It's in our blood. We love death. We love to watch it on TV. We love to see on the movies. We love to kill each other. We love to kill others. Hell we can't seem to go five years without declaring war on somebody or another.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    8. Re:Big time. by pluvia · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Thanks for linking to the source, cause my recollection of what happened was a bit different than your interpretation.

      Here's the quote with more context:
      SEN. SUSAN COLLINS, R-Maine: I think that rather than calling CBS and asking for a delay in the airing of the pictures, it would have been far better if you, Mr. Secretary, with all respect, had come forward and told the world about these pictures and of your personal determination - a determination I know you have - to set matters right and to hold those responsible accountable.

      RUMSFELD: Well, Senator Collins, I wish I had done that. I said that in my remarks.

      I wish I knew - and we've got to find a better way to do it. But I wish I knew how you reach down into a criminal investigation when it is not just a criminal investigation, but it turns out to be something that is radioactive, something that has strategic impact in the world. And we don't have those procedures. They've never been designed.

      We're functioning in a - with peacetime restraints, with legal requirements in a wartime situation, in the information age, where people are running around with digital cameras and taking these unbelievable photographs and then passing them off, against the law, to the media, to our surprise, when they had not even arrived in the Pentagon.
      Rumsfeld is answering a question pertaining to why he didn't publicly preempt the media by divulging the crimes and the photographs himself rather than delaying their release until after the investigation.

      My interpretation is that in hindsight, he wishes he had, but that there were no extant military criminal procedures to do that, even though that would have been helpful in the court of public opinion. In the last paragraph (which you quote), Rumsfeld is summarizing the difficulty of managing traditional military protocol, including investigation (e.g. at the Pentagon) with the importance of US, Iraqi and, indeed, world public relations.

      There is certainly a balance which must be struck between military (or even police) action and public divulgence. Consider if it turned out (as it has in many other cases) that the reports or the pictures were fake. Divulging the pictures or the charges prior to an investigation into their veracity can greatly mislead the public. Then again, acknowledging the possibility that they might be true may help.

      I do not think it can be concluded that the solution Rumsfeld put forth is to "make new rules about cameras in the vicinity of sanctioned torture and rape". If anything, the context implies that the Senator's and Rumsfeld's solution is to develop procedures that will allow for some public divulgence prior to a completed criminal military investigation.

      A sibling poster questioned the "against the law" portion. I suspect Rumsfeld may be referring to the Geneva convention or other military rules of which I am unfamiliar.
    9. Re:Big time. by solferino · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The United States is supposed to be the leader of the free world, the country the rest of the world looks to for morality.


      While I generally appreciated your rebuttal, ipfwadm, of the parent's idiotic statements, this bit of yr comment stood out for me. In my experience only Americans believe the rest of the world looks to them as 'the leader of the free world'. It's part of your general delusion. When I hear your leaders talking about 'bringing democracy to the world' I know that they are spouting cynical rhetoric, but I also know that unfortunately a lot of americans will buy it. Most of the world would be really happy if americans gave up this delusion. America, like all countries, has some wonderful ppl, but frankly yr governments fuck up the world no end, and most of us look at U.S. of A. govmnt. machinations with disgust and disbelief.
    10. Re:Big time. by Brummund · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Well, as long as US officials deny the "detainees" the status as prisoners of war and thus the rights one gets with that status, I guess the Geneva Convention really doesn't bother Rumsfeld that much.

      When American soldiers get captured and tortured, beaten or whatever, US press and officials are all over the place shouting "Respect the Geneva convention", while the soldiers the US capture are denied that basic right.

      Also, it is strange that it doesn't bother the US public more that there are also employees of private companies responsible for torture and interrogation. Why don't the US just outsource the whole war to some company?

      It is disgusting.

  14. Barely an hour? by Zocalo · · Score: 4, Informative

    Was nobody paying attention when Rumsfeld, Gen. Myers and the other Pentagon brass were testifying? The pictures were apparently taken in December 2003, copies passed to Army CID mid-January 2004 and copies were first in the Pentagon around the start of February. Gen. Myers even knew CBS had the pictures long enough to request they not publish, at least for the time being - the potential suppression of the media being something both Senatorial and Congressional committees were quite concerned over. So from the pictures being taken to being front-page news took closer to five months than "barely an hour".

    --
    UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
    1. Re:Barely an hour? by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I hate to see news suppressed, but I am forced to admit that when the public gets involved objectivity goes out the window. People are often willing at the height of these incidences to cry for blood without regard for anyone who might be innocent of wrong doing but caught in the middle.

      The public should be crying for blood.

      I was a medic in Desert Storm. I took care of more wounded Iraqis than all American, British, Saudi, and other allied wounded put together. In many cases, the Iraqis I was taking care of has been trying to kill me a few hours before. Now, I'm not saying that no American soldier ever abused an Iraqi prisoner in that war -- but I will say, quite confidently, that there was nothing like the endemic, long-term, systematic abuse that is clearly going on now. Speaking as a veteran, as an American, and as a human being, I am saying that the people who committed this abuse, be they soldiers, civilian intelligence personnel, or civilian contractors, should be put up against a wall and shot.

      And if it hadn't been for the release of those pictures, the chance of justice ever being done (except maybe for a few junior enlisted folks who would have been sacrificed while those who gave the orders got away with everything) would have been roughly zero.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
  15. Re:Dumb Question by jocknerd · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They are more controversial and shocking because we are Americans and we preach to the world that we are better than everyone else and then we go and do shit like this.

  16. Positive Effects by ChronoWiz · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In Australia, the major political parties frequently hold party meetings that are closed to the public, and to cameras. Thanks to new mobile phones that now have video recording capabilities, a brawl at a national branch meeting of the Liberal Party was caught on camera for all the world to see. I'm sure a lot of people had to think twice about the image of the Liberals as a "mature and rational" party after that, I know I sure did.

  17. spin and popular perception by 0WaitState · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Just one detail for the freepers out there--the abuses occurred (and the photos were taken) in fall 2003. This is months before the four American contractors were killed and had their bodies burned in Fallujah.

    So, if you want to put a biblical eye-for-an-eye spin on this, the Fallujah killings in March may have been revenge for the Abu Ghraib abuses, not the other way around as some folks are trying to insinuate.

    --

    Remain calm! All is well!
  18. Iraq by EinarH · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Strange, the article doesn't touch upon some jounalistic dilemmas here. Why why haven't journalists/photograhers been taking more critical/newsworthy/live/dramatic pictures themselves?

    Could it be because they are in fucking Dubai enjoying all the nice official pictures on those plasma screens?
    Or could it be because they are busy sipping drinks at some Hotel in Baghdad?
    Or *gasp* could it be becasue they are [in]embedded with coalition forces?

    --

    Melius mori in libertate quam vivere in servitute.

  19. A slippery slope is afoot by Jon+Abbott · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If the U.S. military bans digital cameras from personnel, it might give the impression to the world that abusive acts on prisoners can continue without being discovered. If they don't ban cameras, odds are that more humiliating images will be released, inciting further hatred from the Arab community. I am glad that I am not the Secretary of Defense right now...

  20. Photoshop versus Iwo Jima? by Altima(BoB) · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Yes, today's pictures can be photoshopped, but retouching war pictures or contriving them in general is hardly new. The famous Iwo Jima photo was not the actual flag raising right after the battle, but a re-enactment for the camera (God I hope I'm right about that, actually)

    And when war photography first came to the fore, during the US Civil War, photography was treated like paintings, and photos were taken after the battles with soldiers set up in posed, contrived positions because of the long exposure time.

    Just something to think about. The camera can be remarkable for conveying accurate truths, or for conveying convincing lies.

    --
    Yup...
    1. Re:Photoshop versus Iwo Jima? by pyrrhonist · · Score: 5, Informative
      The famous Iwo Jima photo was not the actual flag raising right after the battle, but a re-enactment for the camera (God I hope I'm right about that, actually)

      This was just on the History Channel within the past two weeks. Yes, it's a picture of the second team that was sent to the top of the mountain. Their job was to get the original flag back for the officer that donated it for the first raising (the only flag they could find on short notice) and put a bigger flag in its place. Two photographers were assigned to the group, one to take photos and the other to make a movie of the event.

      --
      Show me on the doll where his noodly appendage touched you.
    2. Re:Photoshop versus Iwo Jima? by jonman_d · · Score: 5, Informative

      Indeed, very correct. Here's the pictures, for contrast:

      The first picture. Note the tiny flag, and the pretty bad angle. Not a very cinimatic shot (though, personally, I think the soldier holding the gun in the bottom right gives a feel of danger to the picture, as he appears to be "on guard" and defending the position).

      Here is the changing of the flags...

      The second shot that everyone knows very well. Obviously, a very different feel to the picture.

  21. Who's holding the spotlight? by Nugbolz · · Score: 5, Informative
    "In 2004, it took barely an hour before the explosive photos from an Iraqi prison were seen all over the world."
    From an article in the Sydney Morning Herald,

    "For two weeks before 60 Minutes in America broke the torture story, it obeyed requests from the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Richard Myers not to run it for fear it would harm American interests in Iraq. The network ran it only after learning that other journalists would tell the story if it didn't.

    (see http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/08/10839114 61425.html)

    In this case, it was relatively "instant" only once the news was ALLOWED to be let out of the bag.
    --
    ((U+C+I) x (10-S))/20 x A x 1/(1-sin(F/10))
  22. Severe brain damage... by Montreal+Geek · · Score: 5, Insightful
    From MSNBC's take:
    While that step is obviously extreme by today's standards, perhaps the military, eager to manage public perceptions, might begin confiscating cameras of soldiers and contractors, Jenkins said.

    "I wouldn't be surprised if that happened," Jenkins said. "The images that are forcing the government to do things are coming out of very unlikely places."

    Auuugh! Cameras are good! It allows the people to check on what their army is really doing. Don't want embarrasing pictures? How about not acting in a way you'd be embarrased to have the world know instead of confiscating cameras?

    -- MG

  23. Re:Here's the report (sans attachments) by lovecult · · Score: 5, Insightful
    The problem is not that the soldiers are untrained or unprofessional.
    The problem is the nature of the work in which they are trained professionals.
    Soldiers are trained to kill.

    I can think of no circumstances under which such training would encourage humanity or civic virtue.
    People who undergo the psychological conditioning neccesary to kill, maim and obey orders, aquire the ability to dehumanise the "other".
    Under the circumstances, systematic torture and brutality would seem to be inevitable.

  24. Well, there's the problem, you see. by khasim · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The Geneva Conventions only cover POW's and civilians and criminals.

    Bush (their Commander in Chief) has SPECIFICALLY stated that some of the people we've captured are NOT covered under the Geneva Conventions, being that they are "unlawful enemy combatants".

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2 07 07-2004Apr17.html

    When you have the people at the very Very VERY top trying to play word games with the rights of prisoners, you don't expect the people at the bottom to behave themselves.

    1. Re:Well, there's the problem, you see. by greenrd · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Yes.

      What's more: Am I going to be the only person in this entire fucking slashdot discussion to explicitly bring up the torture at Guatamano Bay and the relative lack of outrage over that? What's with that? Why is it OK to torture one person and not another? Torture is never OK.

  25. The 800th Military POLICE Brigade. by khasim · · Score: 4, Informative

    They were soldiers, but they were SPECIALLY TRAINED (as in Advanced Individual Training) in Military POLICE operations.

    You see, every enlisted soldier has a Military Occupational Specialty (MOS) which is his/her PRIMARY mission. This can range from cook to cop to construction.

    Their SECONDARY mission is killing and destruction.

    These people failed in their PRIMARY mission.

  26. Re:Here's the report (sans attachments) by rampant+mac · · Score: 3, Informative
    "Un-monitored
    Un-professional

    They didn't even think what they were doing was wrong."

    Bzzt. Wrong. I'm prior active duty, and currently an activated reservist.

    Un-monitored? Big deal. At 19, I was managing over $15 million dollars of assets. Most military personnel KNOW and UNDERSTAND their job and do it without hesitation or prejudice. They are situationally aware and are capable of making distinct decisions. These individuals made the WRONG decision.

    Un-professional? EVERY basic military trainee is drilled on the UCMJ (Uniform Code Of Military Justice). There are simple "codes of conduct" you DO NOT subject enemy combatants to. Besides being unlawful, these actions are humiliating, degrading, and outright horrible.

    --
    I like big butts and I cannot lie.
  27. Re:How many similar images... by WIAKywbfatw · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It seems to me that, as the 20th century progressed, serving your country in a war gradually became less and less about fulfilling a duty honourably and more and more about dehumanising and destroying the enemy as effectively as possible.

    In 1914, during World War One, troops from both sides celebrated Christmas together by leaving their trenches and walking out into No Man's Land to exchange cigarettes and other luxuries and play friendly, gentlemanly games of football (soccer if you must).

    Of course, commanders on both sides soon outlawed the practice, but the mutual respect and honour shown by men sent to kill each other was clear. I don't see that sort of respect nowadays.

    One of the most enduring memories I have of the Gulf War were pictures of the "Road of Death", showing literally hundreds of Iraqi tanks, APCs and other vehicles that had been reduced to smoking piles of metal by Allied air power. I thought of all those thousands of Iraqi conscripts, sitting ducks in their retreat from Kuwait, who were roasted alive in their vehicles by Apaches and Warthogs who used them for target practice. Even on the news or in the papers, barely a thought was given to those killed: that's how far we had dehumanised those Iraqi young men.

    Just in this last month, the US Army has reduced large portions of Fallujah to rubble in order to defeat a handful of resistors. What started when a protest by a few people was treated heavy-handedly has ended with hundreds of Iraqi dead, many of them innocent civilians (yes, innocent civilians; I don't see infants wielding RPGs), heavy US casualties and, eventually, US withdrawal from the area and a "peace" enforced by one of Saddam Hussein's Generals. Yet how many pictures of the widescale destruction caused by US airstrikes or reports of civilian casualties do we see in the majority of our news media? Virtually none.

    Honourable combat to faceless destruction in less than a century. Ain't progress grand?

    Bottom line is this: if you train people to kill, you preach the use of "overwhelming force", and you channel all their aggression into smashing any resistance into smithereens, should you really be surprised when your dehumanisation of the enemy is so effective that POWs abuse comes back to bite you on the ass?

    --

    "Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
  28. Re:Here's a *real* war crime. by beamin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The shredder is a media-created myth.

    And let me see if I've got this straight. Saddam was a brutal ruler for over two decades. He gassed an ethnic minority with gas provided by the US (Reagan was President, Rumsfeld was SecDef) sprayed from US-provided helicopters. Saddam filled the infamous mass graves with Shi'a encouraged to rise up against him by George HW Bush, who left them to die when they heeded him and called on him for aid.

    Now, because Saddam brutalized these people, it made it OK for the US troops to do the same thing to them? The general who submitted the report that was later leaked to the New Yorker (Taguba) pointed out that 60% of the people in there were no threat to anyone.

    Go spin your wheel of justifications for war in Iraq and let me know what you hit. Remember, WMD is out, and apparently so is liberation, since you don't give a shit about those people.

  29. You didn't read the report, did you? by khasim · · Score: 4, Informative

    Here it is, AGAIN!

    http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/

    Let me help you with the hard parts.

    "There is abundant evidence in the statements of numerous witnesses that soldiers throughout the 800th MP Brigade were not proficient in their basic MOS skills, particularly regarding internment/resettlement operations."

    Get that? They did NOT "KNOW and UNDERSTAND their job". That was in the report.

    "Moreover, there is no evidence that the command, although aware of these deficiencies, attempted to correct them in any systemic manner other than ad hoc training by individuals with civilian corrections experience."

    Not only didn't they KNOW their job, they thought that having people with CIVILIAN training would compensate for MILITARY training.

    "I find that the 800th MP Brigade was not adequately trained for a mission that included operating a prison or penal institution at Abu Ghraib Prison Complex."

    Again, they were NOT trained.

    "However, I found no evidence that the Command, although aware of this deficiency, ever requested specific corrections training from the Commandant of the Military Police School, the US Army Confinement Facility at Mannheim, Germany, the Provost Marshal General of the Army, or the US Army Disciplinary Barracks at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas."

    Even though their Chain of Command KNEW they weren't trained, their Chain of Command did NOTHING to fix it (above the company level).

    "Almost every witness we interviewed had no familiarity with the provisions of AR 190-8 or FM 3-19.40."

    They didn't even KNOW the AR's and FM's appropriate to their mission.

    "Numerous witnesses stated that the 800th MP Brigade S-1, MAJ Hinzman and S-4, MAJ Green, were essentially dysfunctional, but that despite numerous complaints, these officers were not replaced."

    The word "dysfunctional" applied to officers by a GENERAL in his OFFICIAL report.

    Now would you care to tell me what "EVERY basic military trainee is drilled on"?

  30. Weblogs change war journalism (not cameras). by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    If you did not yet hear about or read these sites :

    Read how a Baghdad citizen felt about the preparations and during the war Salam Pax - Where is Raed ?.

    Read about an Iraqi girl who lost her job and her hope for the future Riverbend - Baghdad Burning.

    Read what an Iraqi female engineer tells about what's happening in Bagdad now A Family in Baghdad.

    Read what an Iraqi architect has to say Raed in the Middle.

    And in a slightly related note :

    The Stanford Prison Experiment documents an experiment that had to be aborted after only 6 days, because of abuses.

  31. How true.. by js3 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    a couple of months before this, some MP police guy in iraq was posting pictures to a message board about how they beat one of the iraqi contractors up because the intepreter said he didnt like americans.

    Many people who heard of these "abuses" just shrugged them off anyways but once they saw the pictures it all changed.

    It's sad to see those pics but you can also understand it when the iraqis are blowing up humvees everyday with roadside bombs. That same MP who posted pics etc posted one of his hummer after it took a hit from an rpg. I guess it's hard to restrain yourself when somebody is trying to kill you huh

    --
    did you forget to take your meds?
  32. Re:Dumb Question by westlake · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Why are photos of a guy forced to wear panties over his head, or a woman pointing at somebody's dick be more controversial and shocking than, say, the photos of mass graves, or Saddam's torture chambers, where they used REAL electricity to be shocking?

    Because this is an Islamic culture in which such sexual humiliations are the legal and moral equivalent of rape. Because it speaks directly to the primal, tribal sexual fear of women exploited so ruthlessly by the Taliban.
    If Rumsfeld is right, there are more, thousands more, pictures and videos out there, violent and obscene past all description.

  33. Re:Here's a *real* war crime. by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If and when you are made to strip naked, sodomized, electrocuted, and forced to wear a dog leash, I hope you enjoy the experience, secure and comfortable in the knowledge that others have suffered far more horrible abuses.

    The prisoners shown in the pictures may have committed war crimes. They may have committed criminal offenses. They may be innocent. Until and unless a duly appointed court finds them culpable of specific crimes, they should not be punished. And if a specific person were to be found guilty of such crimes, the US Constitution bars the imposition of cruel and unusual punishment. It is probable, although not certain, that when the Iraqis finally get their country back, their constitution will contain similar prohibitions, if only to impede a future regime's use of torture.

  34. Most of the people at Abu Ghraib are innocent by Aexia · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It's estimated that 60% of the prisoners there didn't do anything. They're just people who got picked up for some reason or another, and have been forgotten by the system. There's no processing of prisoners so no one knows why everyone is there.

    And the abuses aren't confined to Abu Ghraib. They're happening in prisons all over Iraq.

  35. Re:Answer by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Let's face it, the army aren't a bunch of heroes, they're a bunch of fucking simpletons who can't find gainful employment anywhere else. They are the lowest strata of a free society, and the worst possible people to arm and send overseas. They only reason that they ever are is because they are so worthless that the rest of society is willing to let them die.

    A few 'soldiers' you may have heard of:
    John Kerry
    John McCain
    George Bush
    George Carlin
    Prince Charles
    George Bush
    David Robinson
    Charles Rangel
    Dwight Eisenhower
    Roger Staubach
    Henry Fonda
    Benny Hill
    Steve McQueen
    Sean Connery
    John Glenn
    Werner Heisenberg
    Leonard Nimoy

    Some people will never understand why someone would join the military. And that's OK, because there are people who will, to protect your right to be innocent.

  36. Re:Answer by crem_d_genes · · Score: 4, Informative

    And if found guilty - their service will likewise protect their rights as their sentences are carried out - even if the guilty ones have sworn those same oaths themselves in the past - even if the guilty ones may be on the list you provided.

    Taguba found that between October and December of 2003 there were numerous instances of "sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses" at Abu Ghraib. Taguba's report listed some of the wrongdoing:

    Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet;
    Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;
    Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing;
    Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time.
    Forcing naked male detainees to wear women's underwear;
    Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped;
    Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;
    Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture;
    Writing 'I am a Rapest' (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;
    Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee's neck and having a female Soldier pose for a picture;
    A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;
    Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee;
    Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees.

    ... Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;
    Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;
    Pouring cold water on naked detainees;
    Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;
    Threatening male detainees with rape;
    Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell;
    Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.
    Using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

  37. Re:Why didn't Rumseld ban the cameras a year ago? by MCZapf · · Score: 4, Informative

    They didn't prevent the abuse of prisoners, and you think they would have been able to communicate or enforce a no-camera policy? Have you read the Taguba Report? The whole 800th Military Police Brigade was poorly run from the commander on down. Hardly anyone knew anything about the Army Regulations, the Geneva Convention, etc. that specifically related to their job as prison staff. For example, the prisoners were not even counted as often as required. In addition, basic Army standards - such as the saluting of officers - were not enforced. The environment was ripe for such abuses to occur. I could go on, but I suggest that you read the report yourself.

  38. Rumsfeld must resign by spaceman+harris · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I know that this story hints at the biggest issue of the last few days in a coy way, but I have to say something. Karma be damned.

    One day far from now Rumsfeld will be close to meeting his Maker, reflecting on his life. At some point I hope he realizes that there was a reason that the Geneva Convention was created. He might note that it protects our troops from torture, and that torture is an ineffective tool to gain information. He might also, for one moment, actually re-evaluate the decisions he has made over the last few years and ask: why?

    But perhaps not, a man who shakes hands with Saddam months after he uses chemical weapons on the Kurds obviously sleeps well at night for some twisted reason.

  39. Which begs the question... by Gorimek · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I can't help wondering: If this was the stuff they didn't feel they could get into trouble for documenting, what may have happened when they tried to hide their tracks?

  40. DItto by beforewisdom · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You have to wonder about the brains of those soilders.

    You don't need a course on the Geneva Convention to know what they did was a dirty deed, yet they did it AND LET THEMSELVES BE PHOTOGRAPNED DOING IT.

  41. Re:Cry me a fucking river. by ipfwadm · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What those soldiers did was certainly wrong, but on the all-time list of crimes possible in times of war, this is a minor traffic violation, not a felony or even a misdemeanor. But the "anybody-but-Bush" crowd is going berserk.

    Bush's justification for the war was Iraq's WMD. You'll note that WMD have yet to be found. So, the new justification? Getting rid of Saddam, and closing down the torture chambers and stopping the abuse. Oops, that didn't pan out either.

    Are you starting to see why this means something yet?

    Full disclosure: I would vote for a slime mold before I would vote for George Bush. I believe he and his henchmen have pulled the wool over the eyes of the American public a few too many times. Also, the fact that he still supports Rumsfeld in this, despite Rumsfeld freely admitting that he withheld knowledge of the prisoner abuse from Bush for months, speaks volumes.

  42. PR disaster not humanitarian disaster by tehanu · · Score: 4, Interesting

    First - the bright side of thing is that army procedures at least are working somewhat - as in there were actual investigations even without publicity (though when the punishment for what the army itself calls "murder" is just being thrown out of the army and never serving any jail time...). However, this seems to be going on *despite* the Pentagon leadership who tried to minimise their scope and people's knowledge of them as much as possible within the boundaries of existing law and is more a testament to the strong structures put in place by previous Pentagon leaders and previous lawmakers rather than any real care for human rights of the current ones (who probably see them as more hinderences to their goals than anything else). This is why we need strong rights and checks and balances in a democracy. This example also shows the need for a strong free press in a democracy. What we are seeing are that the democratic structures in the US that previous generations laboured to put in place are still working.

    Now, onto the bad side.

    Personally, one of the things I find most repellent about the Pentagon's reaction to this issue is that they seem to see this more as a PR disaster then a humanitarian disaster. Of course they are making noises about how terrible it was blah, blah, blah. But Rumsfeld also complained mightily in his recent interview about how annoyed they are they are restricted by "peacetime rules" and hence can't control the dissemation of photos and videos on the web from servicemen and so the photos are getting to the media first without being vetted by the Pentagon.

    "We're functioning in a - with peacetime restraints, with legal requirements in a wartime situation, in the information age, where people are running around with digital cameras and taking these unbelievable photographs and then passing them off, against the law, to the media, to our surprise, when they had not even arrived in the Pentagon."

    As a result there have been mutterings of increased censorship of servicemen from the Pentagon. Before the photos came out, they tried to suppress the details of the information as much as possible without being able to be accused of doing something illegal eg. press releases released at times they know no-one will be paying attention (an old government trick) with only the barest details (not even the names of the soldiers accused nor any real details of the crimes). Nor was there any attempt to inform Congress at all (even though they were having high level meetings with Congress just a few hours before the photos were published and the Pentagon had known about it for ages as they asked CBS to delay broadcasting them during the fighting at Fallujah). Is it just me, or does *everything* about Iraq seem to shock Congress nowadays? "We didn't know anything!" seems to be their standard response. They are getting to be pretty useless as one of the 3 branches of government. The report about the prison abuses that was leaked to the New Yorker is defined as "Secret" even though the Pentagon admitted there was no real reason for it to be so.

    Also the fact that they are trying to pass this off as a few rogue soldiers rather than a systematic problem (which is something their own report and the Red Cross make clear). It almost seems as if the major problem is not that what happened happened, but the fact that the mass media actually found out and are making a big story about it. Now, let's hang some soldiers as scapegoats, make a few noises about "being sorry" and hope it all goes away without us having to make any real changes so we can go back to doing the same thing as before.

  43. Re:Why didn't Rumseld ban the cameras a year ago? by Jeremi · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I am saying that if I were a neocon Rumsfeld interested in protecting my job then I would have issued an order banning cameras a year ago.


    If you were a neocon, you would think of the world in black and white. You would consider American soldiers to be "the good guys", and thus incapable of doing such things. So the idea of banning cameras would never occur to you.

    --


    I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
  44. "Common sense" is not very common. by khasim · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I agree with everything you've said. You should read the report. It will disgust you. Their brigade commander (BG Karpinski) seems to have LIED to the investigators about when she was at the various prisons.

    Other officers are described as "dysfunctional".

    Which would have been bad enough, but then you have civilian contractors telling the troops to soften up the prisoners and telling them that they're doing a good job at it and that they're getting good information because of the abuses.

    Non-existant leadership.
    No training on what the limits are.
    Asking to help with intelligence operations.
    Bush claiming that some prisoners are NOT subject to the Geneva Conventions.
    Hostile environment.
    No idea when they'll be going home.

    So, a few enlisted will burn and the officers will be allowed to retire from service.

    I think that their entire chain of command should be doing a few years in Leavenworth.

    I can see how some worthless fucks could do what they did. I can see burning said worthless fucks. And the responsibility goes up the chain. Their commander should burn. Their commander's commander should burn.

    And Bush needs to shut up about "unlawful enemy combatants" and state that EVERY prisoner is subject to either the US criminal justice system OR the Geneva Conventions.

  45. Digital pictures can be submitted. by Xenographic · · Score: 3, Informative

    In order to admit a picture as evidence (at least, in a normal criminal court--I don't know what they have to do in military courts), you generally do three things:

    1) Print it.
    2) Sign it.
    3) Date it.

    You then submit that to the court. For reference, my information on this comes from the US DOJ CCIPS page. Note that their position on this is similar to how they treat non-digital photographs--that is, they don't insist on the negatives, but they present developed photos to the court. I believe that they cite more case law in there about that so you can read up on it yourself. I'm still digesting lots of 4th ammendment case law from it, myself...

  46. Re:Dumb Question by dustmite · · Score: 4, Insightful

    However, we have to keep in mind that the scope of the problem is very limited to a few people who took part in this whole prison thing.

    But the rest of the world has no way of knowing the true scope of this, because the US refuses to let anyone monitor what is going in any of the other prisons (e.g. in Cuba, Afghanistan and others in Iraq). And quite frankly the fact that the US refuses to let anyone monitor what is happening makes it seem extremely likely that this sort of stuff is endemic. If not, then what is the US trying to hid in all those other prisons? Why not let monitors in if they're not committing war crimes in there?

    Up until the release of these pics, most of the rest of the world could still give the US the benefit of the doubt, and say well maybe they're not doing anything bad. But with the release of these pics, that is gone, and there is absolutely no reason to take the US's word anymore that they're not committing war crimes everywhere. There is no credibility left, the chances seem pretty slim that this was an isolated incident.

  47. Transcripts of Coalition Prov. Authority by Zancarius · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The author of the parent post is correct, the entire "abuse" wasn't just recently discovered. In fact, there is a transcript of the Coalition Provisional Authority Briefing that mentions briefly the same allegations that have been floating around in the press as of late.

    Personally, I think the Associated Press writer needs to be fired for misrepresenting the facts; although, it is possible that he or she was merely using information available at the time. Regardless, this is just a blatant demonstration of the agenda behind purportedly unbiased reporting. Someone, somewhere saw an opportunity to pin this on an individual very high up in the chain of command (Rumsfeld) even though it is outdated news.

    Yes, folks, even with the Information Age upon us, the three day delay between taking the pictures at Iwojima and publishing them was much faster than what happened here. The reason? The Pentagon didn't want them to be released for a while after the incident. (Though, it's a bit silly to discuss an investigation this late into the game--except to save face.)

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    He who has no .plan has small finger. ~ Confucius on UNIX
  48. Lets vilify the military and ignore "country" by mozumder · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I agree. The thing is, these people are as dumb as they come. They couldn't find the door if you pointed it to them. Consider this: their primary job is to KILL PEOPLE. What kind of sick fuck chooses a career who's main task is to filet the guts out of another human being because of where they live? They couldn't get a more productive job like construction or cooking or programming or something? They chose to KILL PEOPLE instead? Imagine being some Iraqi kid watching TV with your dad in your living room and suddenly hearing a thud and looking down and seeing your intestines on your lap because some US soldier had to shoot his 50 caliber into your house because he thought someone was hiding out in there. "But I was just doing my job, sir." Sorta puts in perspective what kind of person a soldier is, so it wasn't any surprise to me at all that these kinds of photos existed. The President is also incorrect when he states that this behavior represents only a small portion of our military, because, as I explained, you'd have to be a pretty sick fuck to even BE a soldier in the first place. Most soldiers would do the EXACT same thing had they been put in charge of that prison.

    Actually, I wouldn't blame the soliders. Being as dumb as they are, they're actually the victims in this scenario: Soldiers are the most ABUSED members of our society. You can only blame those in CONTROL of our society for this situation. And, in a capitalist society like ours, the people in control are the wealthy upper-class. The tiny upper-class (let's say, Chris Rock's A+ students) figured out a genious marketing campaign to actully get other human beings, mainly members of the hated and completely stupid lower-class (D/F students) and the vast and barely qualified middle-class (B/C students), to DIE for them. This is the ultimate, most brilliant marketing campaign ever- to get someone to DIE for your product of "country". Just look at our citizenry- they absolutely LOVE the military! "How dare you cut our $500 billion military budget?!" Love 'em like they're heros! Why? Not because they did something productive like find a cure for cancer or anything like that, but becuase they did something destructive like bomb an Iraqi hut with a cruise missile launched from a boat some 900 miles away, to, ultimately, protect "country".

    In this era of globalization, where the idea of "country" becomes diminished since the entire world is instantly connected and therefore seperated by one degree, this would be the equivalent of a factory owner in Columbus, Ohio to get the citizens of Columbus to invade Toledo. I'm sure the people in Columbus are mad as hell at the people of Toledo, but, come on, it's sorta meaningless to those that don't believe in "city", right? And, if you notice when you go country to country these days, they're all pretty much the same, with the trade of the wealthy upper-class defining each "country".

    1. Re:Lets vilify the military and ignore "country" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I was a soldier for 16 years. Not in the US military, but in my time I've build roads, bridges, hospitals, fed people whose villages were destroyed by a tidal wave, cleared landmines, and been deployed to countries in risk of being over run by their powerful neighbors, but never had to kill anyone. Spent plenty of time carrying a loaded weapon in places where it was a distinct possibility though, and several of my close friends did need to kill people.

      Despite what sheltered individuals such as yourself may believe, the military isn't fundamentally about killing people. The machinery and act of killing people is incidental, and subordinate to its primary aim as a tool by which to absolutely impose by a collective act of will an outcome on people who don't want to accept negotiation or rational argument.

      Killing is often necessery, and the tools and preparations and training for killing form a big part of military training. Sometime killing happens inadvertently due to supidity, or carelessness or racism, or maybe because some private has been at that .50 cal awake for 3 days, under a degree of stress that someone from a pampered and priviliged existance has trouble comprehending.

      Members of the military are merely a broad spectrum from the society they are drawn from , and there are many very clever, intelligent , funny, caring human beings in most militaries, all the way through to people who really are at the shallow end of the gene pool, are ethically and morally deficient, and easily suggestible. At the end of the day, regardless of their background, abilities, or motivation for joining, these people have given up some of their freedom and human rights, and an unlimited liability to their society, so people like you have the right to call them sick fucks, and sleep in a warm bed safe at night.

      To the survivors of some of the places I and some of my fellow soldiers have been deployed to, when option a) was continuing to be collectively abused and repressed by violent thugs, and option b) was for soldiers to drive them away, clear the roads of landmines, and allow the NGOs to start rebuilding their country, the benefits were far more direct and tangible, than inventing a cure for cancer.

      The military is nothing but a tool for a government to use, and if you don't like how your government uses your military, and you have the luxury of living in some form of democracy, take a good hard look at yourself, and the government you elected.

      Although there are pertubations, democratic countries generally get the quality of government they ask for.

      The arguable inevitability of the subjugation of the nation-state to the multi-national corporation is a whole other argument.

    2. Re:Lets vilify the military and ignore "country" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you want to do humane work there are a lot of organizations that feed, help, save people.

      This is their primary directive.

      Army's primary directive is to force the will of a government, by any means. This means killing people, destroying various public necessities and so on.

      The primary directive of an army more or less is to destroy.

      You can build all the roads you like, feed all the people in the world. But that does not make you any better than a serial killer that helps some dog or cat from time to time.

      He remains a serial killer you know.

    3. Re:Lets vilify the military and ignore "country" by sg_oneill · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Listen brother, I hear ya, but I gotta call you on what you say about soldiers.

      I'm a pretty much full time activists, marched in every rally and honetly man, I cried when the troops went it.

      But I've also sat and drank with american soldiers visiting my country and you know, for the most part there all pretty good kids (silly buggers on the piss tho, hint to us servicemen reading this: Dont get pissed and start punch ups in foreign ports, the locals HATE it).

      I remeber sittign down with a couple of lonely marines after they offered to buy some of us locals some drinks, and I asked about the backgrounds, turns out alot of these guys come from lower class backgrounds, and do basically believe in apple pie, momma and the american way.

      Now this isnt a malicious thing. These guys believe there there to A) Get a carreer which AINT pushing shopping trolleys at walmart, B) Do good things for people.

      The problem is , the brass at the top taking these guys honest passion for things for whatever the freakin PNAC agenda or conservative 'one true way' is.

      But dont hastle private joe bloggs about that man. Hes just doing his job, and chances are , when he steps off that carrier back home he'll be feeling fucked up and angry.

      My generation saw what vietnam and the resulting 'spittin on the soldiers' did to our dads generation. we've been beaten around, had absent alcoholic dads, watched the big daddies in our lives turned into emotional messes when we needed them to be strong for us.

      Lets not do that to these guys. When they get off feeling all fucked up and angry, buy the brother a beer.. He'll tell you whats *really* going on, and the peace people will be stronger for it.

      *NEVER* forget the human costs of politics. Bother the killtoll of war and the headtoll of an angry unfocused oposition.

      --
      Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
  49. Re:cellphone cameras are doubleplus good by hughk · · Score: 3, Interesting
    In the old days, photo journalists were trained to get their most controversial pictures out of the camera as soon as possible. 35 mill film cannisters are small and easy to conceal. I seem to remember one particularly striking sequence of someone being murdered for collaberation where the whole camera (a Nikon) was dropped into a bucket of muddy water for concealment. Both camera and film needed a thoroough clean but the film was published and the camera reused later.

    CF, smart media and memory sticks are also easy to conceal but unfortunately they aren't quite as sturdy. Camera phones are interesting but it takes time to do an upload.

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    See my journal, I write things there
  50. Re:signature by base3 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If the camera can sign the images, the private key needed to do so must be in the camera. It would only be a matter of time before someone (and it only takes one) figured out how to get the key out of the camera, which would make people able to sign anything, and thus the camera's signatures pretty much meaningless.

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    One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.