Germany to Vote Against Software Patents in the EU

YKW writes "According to Ars Technica, Germany has decided to vote against all changes to current European patent laws. In a statement given to demonstrators in Germany, Federal Department of Justice Minsterial Director Elmar Hucko read the riot act to the EC: 'Under no circumstances do we want American procedures in Europe, Hucko vowed with regard to the US patent process. A patent must be "a fair reward for a bona fide invention and not abused as a strategy to bludgeon competitors.' With the largest EU member against software patents and French IT leaders lobbying their goverment to vote against them too, Europe might be saved from software patents. At least for a while. An older Slashdot article about software patents in Europe is here."

Comments

Foreign competitors

[kevmo]

I am curious to see how this will play out with big US companies like Microsoft and Apple, specifically with foreign competitors cloning their products.

Will Microsoft be able to prevent Windows clones from being sold in the US by US patents, even though they may be legal in Europe?

Re:Foreign competitors

[Awptimus Prime]

I think I know what is going to happen:

Eventually, the EU is going to stomp all over US software firms. This will happen after a few years of unrestricted development.

If this pans out well, I'll be looking for citizenship in the EU in the next few years. What's so great about the US nowadays? We've demonstrated that our voting system has failed, that our leadership hates gays, muslims, and does nothing to protect middle america's jobs while all the fatcats get fatter by outsourcing anything and everything they can because they lost their sense of nationalism over a few dollars.

The way I see it, the US has had leadership without any real vision of tomorrow. This has resulted in a world of nations against it. The repair will require a lot more than a democrat in office, too. It will require people actually caring, and that is not going to happen anytime soon. Hell, look how well 9/11 "brought us together". All it brought together were the straight, old white people out in the boonies, and that's only because they all bought the same stickers, t-shirts, and other random 9/11 merchandise at the local gas station. For the rest of us, all we see is a nation filled with hate and sensless, highly reactionary, law making.

Geeks, get your passports ready.. EU or bust! :)

Re:Foreign competitors

[the drizzle]

Amen. An amendment against gay marriage? This is the pinnacle of our president's social policy? Whatever happened to the great uniter?

Whether one is for or against the policy of Iraq, the lack of disclosure from this administration is baffling. Any argument one can use against the Clinton administration (lack of disclosure, too much rhetoric) can be multiplied 10x with this administration.

But more to the point...Europe's economy is proving powerful (and increasingly united) against US policy, and we can either oblige their requests or become victim of their policies. We can force Microsoft to start operating fairly or ignore their practices until their business will be fined into financial hell in Europe and some German company takes over the desktop share (with a Linux/FreeBSD distro).

Re:Foreign competitors

[Pelops]

Well, talking about buying american products is not something completely accurate.
Do I buy an american products when i buy IBM or Coca cola ? The answer is far from simple when you think about it.
Don't forget that for examples Coca Cola exports very little. They use local factories to produce the soft drink. Same thing for IBM, they have factories all over Europe.
So when you buy an american product, you are not just giving money to the US, but also to those european countries who host those factories.
Nothing is as simple as black and white.

Re:Foreign competitors

[orcrist]

You want to do what? Park an aircraft carrier just off the coast of the country that invented Exocet ?

My goodness. That'd certainly be a sight worth seeing! Brief, but worth seeing.

Brief? Sorry, no. I'm not one of those knee-jerk "America will kick your ass!" type of Americans but... no. And to the moderators, no it's not insightful. Interesting? Yes.

Your link mentions that it managed to heavily damage a frigate. There's a world of difference between a frigate and an aircraft carrier. From my tour of duty on submarines I can tell you that a frigate of that sort is considered to be a one-torpedo target; one torpedo will literally crack a frigate right in half. Battleships and aircraft carriers nominally need at least 2-3. And that's assuming you even get in range: 65 km? ROFLMAO.

An aircraft carrier is never alone. It is almost always accompanied by at least 2 attack subs and several surface ships ranging 150+ km. around the carrier. No surface ship is getting within even 200 km. of that carrier let alone 65 km. And submarines wouldn't have an easy time of it either. At best it would be a suicide mission (since once they fire, they'll have 2 fast-attacks, a swarm of P-3's, and an ASW cruiser on their ass) and they'd be likely to cause more damage if they simply use their torpedos, or better yet ram it at full speed.

Or, as other posters have pointed out, use nukes. A tomahawk with a tactical nuke and its 1100 km. range would do the trick, assuming the French have them :-P

Don't get caught up with this idea that just because the U.S. is behaving like a bunch of idiots in Iraq, and that guerilla tactics work against a modern army when it's the occupying force among an increasingly hostile populace that that translates to the ocean. Since the break-up of the USSR there is no one (or not even everyone together) who can challenge the U.S. on the seas. Period. That's why the Navy has turned into nothing more than a troop and munitions delivery service: A victim of its own success.

-chris

First Post!

[thewldisntenuff]

Our neighbors across the pond might actually have a good idea for once :) ...

If the WIPO can get a standard software patent system across both sides (US and Euro), preferrably like the Europeans, we might not be reading Slashdot headlines every morning that read "Apple Patents the English Language!", etc. The US Patent system is dated, and needs change, especially when such patents can be made and there is such a high backlog of patents...Time shall tell, but this may be the first step in getting software/IP patents sorted out

Hm, interesting...

[NeoChaosX]

And for the Americans who may ask "It's Europe; who give a flying fuck?", you need to know that the entire European Union is much larger than the United States, both in population and economy. And since Germany is the EU's largest member (and the article also points out efforts in France to block the software patent laws), this this could really heat up the war over software patents.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe you're a bit behind the times. These days, it's the entire world that says "It's America, fuck them!"

Re:Hm, interesting...

[timeOday]

you need to know that the entire European Union is much larger than the United States, both in population and economy.

Population, yes, economny, no:

EU GDP: 11.50 trillion Pop: 454,900,000
US GDP: 10.40 trillion Pop: 290,343,000

Sure a trillion more is a lot in absolute terms, but it's only 10%.

Anyways in this case it might be more relavant to define a "software GDP," and for now I think the US would be #1 in that dept.

If the EU does resist software patents, it should be interesting to watch: will monetizing every little idea create more value for US companies and keep them in the lead, or will the increased freedom in the EU lead to products that integrate all the best features, leading to EU dominance? And does Microsoft even care, since they can easily buy any company with patents they want? Stay tuned...

Re:Hm, interesting...

[TenPin22]

US National Debt = $7,147,545,929,573.40

Or if you like $7.1 Trillion.

http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdpenny.htm

Dunno what the EU National debt is but I don't think we run a $500 Billion trade deficit and the Euro isn't a reserve currency and you can't buy oil directly with Euros (yet).

Once you see the Euro as a reserve and oil currency you can kiss the US economy goodbye.

All that American debt testifies to the USA's free ticket to creating dollars out of thin air. As long as they aren't spent in the USA they can effectively pay interest in dollars on the dollars it borrows from Asia, Russia, Europe, China and the Middle East.

Once the rest of the world wakes up and starts trying to get out of the dollar for whatever reason (oil peak, war, terror attacks), allllll that cash will flow back to the USA and cause hyperinflation.

Yes, the USA is heading for complete financial collapse taking most of the world with it leaving the EU to emerge as the dominant economic world power.

If you look at history currency systems have only ever lasted about 30 years so we are long overdue for a complete crash since the USA stopped backing the dollar with gold in the 1970s.

It's been a fun last 50 years but the party is almost over !

Oh yeah and getting back to the topic, no software patents in Europe could be an incentive for companies to base in Europe only furtherering the USA's economic decline.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[flossie]

Please explain what mystery economic process would cause this. It doesn't matter if I buy my oil in pesos or groats, it still costs the same, and the exchange rate is still 27 pesos to the groat no matter which currency I use.

The mysterious process that would cause the US economy to collapse is the change in exchange rates. While US dollars are the reserve currency in which oil is traded, all nations need to ensure that they have a fistful of dollars in reserve with which they can buy oil. This means that the US treasury can print and spend dollars and can get goods in return while being confident that most of these dollars are safely tied up in foreign national banks and will not be "cashed in" against the US reserves. In effect the US has literally been able to print money since the gold standard was abolished.

If Euros become the new reserve currency, all of a sudden there will be a whole lot of dollars used to pay off any trade balances with the US. Instead of getting goods in return for paper, the US will start to get paper in return for goods. The final effect will be massive inflation in the US and a plummeting dollar on the international exchange markets.

If you want a slightly more coherent and well thought out explanation of this, I suggest you read Will Hutton's The state we're in.

A good first step

[ErichTheWebGuy]

On Groklaw, this was reported last Thursday. Not only will Germany vote no, but there is some pretty heavy pressure on France to do the same. In fact, to quote Groklaw, "They call business methods patents on software corporate racketeering and say they don't want to copy US methods"

The entities putting pressure on the French govt. include the head of MandrakeSoft, who has pretty heavy pull over in France. In fact, IIRC, a lot of French govt. agencies use Mandrake Linux.

strategy

[bladesjester]

all that companies in the EU will have to do if software patents are denied in the EU will be to set up a small arm of the company in the US. since most software products are sold here as well, they can just do the litigation here in the US. all it would take is for the company violating the patent to have an office or bank account in the US or to sell the offending product in the US...

Patents work.

[digitalPortal]

The overall premise of patenting an invention is valid and protects the inventor. However, I agree the current system is highly abused. The flaw in the current system, is the ability to patent 'IDEAS' even if you cant physically create a functioning prototype. For example, right now you can patent the 'IDEA' of a hovercraft car, and 50 years from now when someone actually develops a hovercraft car...they *must* pay royalties to you. ???? this needs to be changed. You should only be able to patent physical process (algorithms, products) and not ideas. -$0.02

Re:Patents work.

[linuxhansl]

I agree, a patent is by itself a good concept.

For software (aswell for music and movies, btw), however, copyright law already regulates ownership. Allowing patents on software is like allowing patents on sequences of tunes or on sequences of images. It's absurd.

With copyright governing in the software world, you can be sure that whatever you write yourself from scratch is yours. With Patents allowed you may infringe on existing patents without your knowledge. That is the big difference.

I don't know our friends in the music industry would react if patents on sequences of tunes or images would suddenly be allowed.

Amen

[WindowLicker916]

Hopefully this will eventually cause change in the American patent system. The current system pratically stifles competition and clogs our court systems, costing millions to tax payers. I mean, come on, why should one click shopping be considered a patentable idea?

Patent This

[Deaper]

I still want to get a patent for the human reproductive proccess so that I can essentially control who can and can not reproduce. Gosh knows somebody needs to.

Re:I guess I shouldn't get my hopes up

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually the US can't force the EC to do anything anymore. As someone pointed out, they have a larger economy (more people, yes... but it's still a larger economy). And frankly america has "lost face" over iraq, and this damages prestige. Prestige is hard to quantify, but if you piss everyone off over one issue... other things get harder.

So the war in iraq isn't *just* sapping millions of dollars a day from the US, you are also losing prestige. Furthermore, your prestige is also going to take a *huge* blow if you pull out of iraq and let it become a hellhole/puppetdemocracy/iran2/whatever. People will say, "look that 'superpower' can't even conquer a tiny country properly - we have nothing to fear".

So there are interesting days ahead, I for one used to believe in america as an ideal - dislike most of the people yes, but the ideal was there. You were my kin, I would have considered dying defending your shores were you under mortal threat (just as the french fought by you at your birth)... but now, I am indifferent, because not only do I dislike most americans now, but I think the american ideal has changed drastically. It is not something worth defending. Your legislators have wiped their asses on the constitution so many times you cannot read the print for the shit. And your populance has stood by and let this happen.

Now the american ideal is the american cautionary tale for how not to let your democracy fail. Some will learn from it, others will not. Life will continue.

America has left a mark on history, and it is still up for grabs as to what that mark exactly is. But right now, it's looking like a stain.

Re:Meanwhile, in France...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah I'm not french either. And although I like to have a dig at them occasionally the fact that I know it is probably americans modding this up (and who created tehe video) just ruins it. We english have been at war with the frogs and dissing them out for much longer and have a right to this humour.

Whereas you americans.... The french helped you fight us off, the french bled and died fighting for your freedom. That makes any jibe by an american toward them (ala the republicans not long ago) a spew of filth.

Disgrace. The french not supporting (i.e. verbal) your quite questionable war equates to treachery? How about remembering the guys who died for you, and died for an ideal.

fuck you, you stinking fucks. this is where anti-americanism stems from. right here, from your stinking ignorance and disrespect.

Italy too?

[xlyz]

Italian Minister for Technological Innovation, that is not entitled to vote ( DOH! ), has strongly recommended his collegues partecipating to vote against as well

[meta] time for an EU icon?

[CComMack]

Just a suggestion: might it not be wise to create a topic and icon for matters pertaining to EU law, in parallel to the Stars and Stripes icon often seen on YRO stories pertaining to US law? I for one am finding the many "earlier Slashdot stories" referenced in the text of every EU software patent story one reads nowadays to be a tedious method of threading.

And before I get modded down by the Europe bashers, let me disclose that I'm an American who finds it edifying to keep up with events across the pond, and have no interest in the "Is Slashdot too Americentric" debate.

Re:Wakeup Call

[Vlad_the_Inhaler]

Der Spiegel (article in German) does not agree with you. Maybe they also listened to Heise but it does not look like it.

Re:Wakeup Call

[kompiluj]

Kinda strange, but DO YOU READ what you cite?
Quoting:
Last Wednesday Elmar Hucko, head of a government department in the Ministry of Justice, announced at an event in Berlin that the Federal Government would vote against the controversial software patent directive of the Council of Ministers of the European Union

WIPO/TRIPS actually FORBID software patents!

[Halo1]

suppose if Germany decides not to support the European Commission on changes in the law to software patents, then nobody can sway them otherwise because they are a sovereign state and don't have to comply with what the WIPO or the EC says.

First of all, as member of the EU, Germany has to comply with EU directives that are passed. Next, WIPO does not only not require software patents, it even forbids them (just like TRIPS).

The excuse used by software patent proponents regarding TRIPs, is article 27:

Patents shall be available for any inventions, whether products or processes, in all fields of technology, provided that they are new, involve an inventive step andare capable of industrial application.

This text however explicitly uses terms which are defined nowhere else in the treaty (like "invention", "field of technology" and "inventive step"), so that signing members can define these terms themselves in such a way that they fit best in their existing laws.

According to article 52 of the the European Patent Convention, a computer program can never constitute an invention. And in the Parliament proposal of the directive, "field of technology" is defined in such a way that computer programs, maths, business methods etc do cannot belong to one (even if they're executed on a computer).

And on top of that, there's articles 7 TRIPs which is interpreted by the WTO as that the measures as implemented must ...

.. contribute to the promotion of technological innovation and to the transfer and dissemination of technology, to the mutual advantage of producers and users of technological knowledge and in a manner conducive to social and economic welfare

Most evidence points to the contrary as far as software patents are concerned.

So TRIPs does not require software patents, how does it forbid them?

Article 10 of the TRIPs treaty states:

Computer programs, whether in source or object code, shall be protected as literary works under the Berne Convention (1971).

As opposed to what a first reading would suggest, namely that this simply means that copyright protection must be available for computer programs, this article goes further. The WTO states on its website regarding article 10.1:

The obligation to protect computer programs as literary works means e.g. that only those limitations that are applicable to literary works may be applied to computer programs.

Since patent protection is unavailable for literary works, it can't be available for computer programs either according to TRIPs. Proponents of software patents often counter this using their interpretation of "computer program as such", which turns "computer programs with a further technical effect" into "computer-implemented inventions", which in turn would supposedly not be affected by this exclusion.

This interpretation is however invalid due to article 4 of the EU Software Copyright directive from 1991. This article states that a computer program as literary work includes the following (emphasis mine):

... the permanent or temporary reproduction of a computer program by any means and in any form, in part or in whole. Insofar as loading, displaying, running, transmission or storage ...

The WIPO Copyright Treaty also contains applicable clauses (article 10):

(1) Contracting Parties may, in their national legislation, provide for limitations of or exceptions to the rights granted to authors of literary and artistic works under this Treaty in certain special cases that do not conflict with a normal expl